 Hi, this is the Bible as Literature Podcast. All ideology is self-referential. It begins with the desire for self-preservation and achieves fulfillment by exercising power. Whether we wield this power ourselves or ask others to wield it for us, because it is self-referential, it is always employed at the expense of others, especially those who are weaker than us. All ideology is self-justifying and therefore destructive, but the worst kind operates under the pretense of morality. We see this all the time in traditional and social media. If my idea is morally right, then I am right, and I have the right to exercise might. So you go ahead and post that meme that shows how stupid or evil they are. You took a stand. You stood up for right. You feel good. Congratulations. You're a hypocrite. When the Pharisees and the Herodians approach Jesus to entrap him, they too operate under the pretense of morality. As the prophets proclaim, you cannot serve God and at the same time seek security from worldly powers. You have to make a choice. So they accuse Jesus with a question, but their question itself preoccupied with self-preservation pertains neither to the prophets nor the law. On the contrary, their false question concerns the one from whom they seek security at the expense of God's teaching, the Emperor of Rome. Richard and I discuss the Gospel of Mark, chapter 12, verses 13 to 17. You're listening to the Bible as literature. Hi, this is Father Mark Boulos. And this is Dr. Richard Benton. And you are listening to episode 188 of the Bible as literature podcast. We've come to one of my favorite passages in Mark, Richard, that deals with the famous commandment that one is to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars. And growing up in the Midwest, of course, I've been persecuted over the years with the most horrible interpretations of this passage, the most famous and most common being this argument that Jesus is contending that there should be a separation between church and state. It's a convenient interpretation because it suits our political ethos in the United States, but it is incorrect. Jesus is not talking about the separation of church and state, nor is he giving any credence to the state. He is talking about the irrelevancy of the state. And I think this is difficult for people because they look at texts like Romans where Paul talks about submitting to the state and they get confused. There is one king and one lord and that's God. Jesus does not recognize the claim either of the Herodians or of Caesar on the land. This is very important. He does not acknowledge it. He scoffs at it the way God scoffs at the other kings in Psalm 2. I love going back to that Psalm, Richard, because it's a template for God's dealings with human power. He does not take the power of men seriously. So I can't stress this enough that he neither acknowledges Caesar's claim nor does he fear or take Caesar's power seriously. So this is not about the separation of church and state. It's about the hegemony of the kingdom, which supersedes all gods and all principalities and all powers and all earthly kingdoms. This is the stone that the builders rejected. You must depend on God for all things, and if you're depending on God for all things, and it's your duty to give to so-and-so, you give to so-and-so, why? Because God presented you with this duty. This is part of what your job is as one who works the land by the grace of God, as one who lives on the land by the grace of God and who is provided for by the grace of God. Now, Scripture is not advocating rebellion or anarchy, and this is where people get confused, and this is where the social justice movement gets tripped up. It's also where liberation theology gets tripped up, because I want to call to mind that passage in Romans. It's a very important passage where Paul explains that you have to submit to the authorities and that God does not let them wield the sword in vain. Because on the one hand, you don't acknowledge that they have power, but since you don't acknowledge that they have power except that which was given them by God for the sake of His teaching, then you have no right to oppose them. This is why Jesus submits to Pontius Pilate. So by saying that you submit to the one who wields power or authority against you, by preaching that submission in Romans, Paul is not saying that the one who wields that power has relevance, only the one who gives that power for a purpose for a time according to his providence. The reference point, as we learned from the previous parable, is the owner of the land. And the owner of the land is the one who provides the teaching, and that's ultimately the actual reference point. We're not talking about land in Scripture, ultimately. We're talking about the land that is posited by the teaching, about the reality in which we walk, if we hear the teaching. The power comes from the teaching which God hands down to us through Jesus Christ. And if we truly accept the power of that word, we have no trouble submitting to its instruction even and especially in the person of the one who opposes us. So this is the subtlety of the confrontation with Caesar in verses 13 to 17 in chapter 12. Then they sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to him in order to trap him in a statement. So here we go. Once again, they want to somehow undermine Jesus in the eyes of the people because they're afraid of the mob. And so like the media in any country, if they can make a president look stupid, they have a window of opportunity to undermine him. And that's what they're trying to do with Jesus. And it's interesting, Richard, that they had a council on the side, whoever they are. They had a council on the side and sent a couple of representatives. So they plotted, and they can't all face him directly. So they picked a few people to go try to confront Jesus. And look, it's the Pharisees and the Herodians, meaning that the religious teachers in Jerusalem are not interested in the power of the word. They're interested in the power of church and state, the Pharisees and the Herodians. What we see time and time again is this cowardice, interestingly enough, against this very weak man, Jesus. Early on in the story, we talked a lot about how the Pharisees would talk among themselves or they talk to his followers, and then Jesus would confront them. And here, again, they go and they find somebody else to go and speak on their behalf. There's a significant cowardice among those who are even the most powerful to go and speak against Jesus. Just as you said, Father, they're afraid of looking stupid. They're afraid of being humiliated by this weak man. These are the people who have power and are afraid of losing it just as the people in the field were afraid of losing what they had. They came and said to him, Teacher, we know that you are truthful and defer to no one for you are not partial to any but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to pay a poll tax to Caesar or not? We know you tell the truth. We know you don't answer to anyone. The only thing you care about is the way of God. So if that's the case, if you don't defer to any human being and you only speak God's teaching in truth, can you answer us this question? Is it lawful to pay a tax to Caesar? Now the thought is that if he says, no, it's not lawful, then they will get him in trouble with the civil authorities. But if he says, yes, it's lawful, then he'll look like a hypocrite in the eyes of the people. Because Jesus, didn't you just say that you defer to no one? But this is the subtlety of Scripture that even today Christians don't understand. They're setting him up. They're trying to get him to go one way or the other on Caesar. Their flaw is they make Caesar to be the reference point. Are you with Caesar in that you support paying the tax? Or are you against Caesar in that you're against paying the tax? And if he's for Caesar, then he's a patsy. And if he's against him, then he's a rebel. Either way, they're trying to drive a wedge. How do we get him to align with one or the other? That way we can drive a wedge, the pro-Caesar and the anti-Caesar camps. We are so concerned about the crowds that the way they want to attack Jesus is based on the crowds of followers that he has. And they do so by making Caesar the reference point. Are you with Caesar or are you against Caesar? Because this is how you would rebel in the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire would come in, they would say, okay, we own you now, pay us tribute. If you said, all right, you give them money, then you're with the Romans. If you don't give them the money, you don't give them the taxes, then you're against them and they destroy you. This is how you show your loyalty. So they're saying, are you loyal to Caesar or are you disloyal to Caesar? There is an important lesson here for Americans specifically because of the way we delineate each other along ideological lines. And it's getting worse and it's getting more dangerous. I really appreciate the way you characterized the choice of how they would like to judge Jesus. Is he a patsy or is he a rebel? Is he for or against? Does he take a stand or does he cower? This is exactly how politicized people think. This is how their polemic works. If you don't post something on Facebook for or against, you're not taking a stand. It's silly because by posting something on Facebook or giving a little soapbox speech on television, you're not doing anything but glorifying yourself. There's a lot of personal glory in taking a false stand the way people do today, a feel good stand. And what happens when people take a feel good stand, usually someone else has to pay a price in blood for their self satisfaction. But in the Gospel of Mark, the only one who pays a price in blood is Jesus. So he is not cowering in fear like his accusers. Or is he getting any emotional satisfaction out of taking some ideological stand? His only stand is his deference and allegiance to Scripture, which will extract a price in blood from him, and which will force him to oppose Caesar, but not in the very selfish and self-centered way that the Pharisees and the Herodians themselves operate. I want to challenge everybody to take time with this passage and really try to hear what it's saying. If you are a disciple of Scripture, you will be both a Patsy and a Rebel at your expense. The Patsy among men benefits from his cowardice, and the Rebel among men benefits from his social stand. But the one who serves the Word of the Father, the one who submits to God's teaching, can function either way but always at his own expense. Shall we pay, or shall we not pay? But he, knowing their hypocrisy said to them, why are you testing me? Bring me a denarius to look at. And here, Richard, the one thing I want to say is that the hypocrisy to which Jesus refers is the hypocrisy I just described. They want to expose Jesus as being either for or against within their ideological framework. But Jesus is going to demonstrate that no matter where you are on the scale of left to right within their ideological framework, you're a hypocrite, and that's the point. The hypocrisy of these people is that they made Caesar the reference point. And though they think they're making God the reference point, they're not. They're making Caesar the reference point in the question. And that's why it's an issue. And so now he says, bring me, and that's one interesting thing. When you look upon something in Scripture so often, this is related to idolatry. They brought one, and he said to them, whose likeness and inscription is this? And they said to him, Caesar's. There's nothing more idolatrous than an image with a likeness and an inscription. So there's a subtle dig immediately against this as idolatry. Anyway, if you're going to make Caesar the reference point, you're an idolater. As a Pharisee and as a Herodian, as Jews, you are giving credence to something that has the effigy of a false king who claims that he's the son of the gods. So you are giving power to a false God associated with the many false gods and idols that oppress your people in the land of Palestine. That's the power of this. Notice, I'm not saying that the Lord is not concerned with the cry of his people in bondage under the Roman yoke. That's not what I'm saying. That's not what we read in Exodus. I'm saying that he is scandalized and angry that the ones who are to have been the ministers of Israel, the teachers of Torah, the shepherds of the people are facilitating the oppression and tyranny under the Roman yoke by paying homage to the false son of the gods, Caesar. It's a very serious matter because in this scenario, scripture is your liberation from the Roman yoke without a doubt. In other words, Richard, when people talk about this passage as being about the separation of church and state, they are giving power to the state. They are allowing the state to oppress because then when you confront whatever state you live in with the word of Jesus Christ, they dismiss you like, well, but we're not supposed to talk about politics, Father Mark. I'm not talking about politics. I'm talking about the fact that you are oppressing the poor. That's not about politics. I'm not proposing a social program to solve your problem. I am telling you that you are oppressing the poor and the Lord is coming. So you have a chance now to repent. So hear the word of the Lord. When people talk about the separation of church and state with reference to this text, what they mean is we don't want to be reminded that poverty and war and cruelty are sins, Father Mark, because we're very happy with the way our country runs. Please leave us alone. Please go away. Please return to your embroidery. Can't you talk about something nice? Patsy wants to entrap and therefore emasculate Jesus, but whether Jesus is a Patsy or a rebel, you can't emasculate him because the power of his father, which is present in the teaching, is immutable. The Herodians themselves show the error of this path anyway because the Herodians are the descendants of the Maccabees who rebelled against the Greek Seleucids and who fought on behalf of the ability to follow Torah and to teach Torah and what happened as they were eventually enamored with power and co-opted by the Greeks and then the Romans and now at this point they're fighting against the one who would bring the people to follow Torah more faithfully. I'm very appreciative to you, Richard, for mentioning the Maccabees because people make out of the Maccabees heroes. But in Scripture there are no heroes, and the hypocrisy of the Herodians in this passage exposes the New Testament critique against violence in the hands of men, unless the Lord builds the house in vain do they labor who build it. There is no cause that you're allowed to stand up for. There is no victory that you're allowed to succeed. There's only the victory that God provides. These men, both the Pharisees and the Herodians, are fighting for their nation or their cause or their own power and it's a lost cause. And Jesus said to them, render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's. And they were amazed at him in the classic refrain of the Markan narrative. Why are you amazed? Haven't you figured out yet the power that Jesus is teaching? This is where Jesus has to bring God back into the question. They were talking about Caesar, Caesar, Caesar, Caesar, Caesar, and Jesus has to bring back the author of Torah for this to make any rational sense, especially on the heels of the previous parable about the land and the land owner. Who owns the fruits? Who owns the land? And here, who owns the money? Who is the owner? This is what Jesus has been trying to get through their heads for all this time. God as the owner of all the land is an idea that goes all the way back to Genesis, becomes important in Exodus when they come back into the land. God as the one who owns the entire land is something that has to keep being reemphasized. Again, they're amazed at him because they don't know scripture. That's a classic refrain in Mark. They're amazed because they neither know nor recognize the power of God. They're amazed because the thing that really impresses them is the power of Caesar. But Jesus is saying flat out, let me see it. He's looking at it like a government inspector and saying, I don't recognize this document. I don't recognize this inscription. This has no value to me. The reason you submit to human power in scripture is because there's no reason to fight it because you don't recognize it. And in submitting to it, when you submit to human power out of love, you are actually submitting to the Father of Jesus Christ and doing His will. This is the way in which Jesus bows to Pontius Pilate. So Jesus is not rebelling. He lives under Roman tyranny and ultimately the Romans are going to execute him and he's not going to fight them. But you better believe he's not going to acknowledge that the land belongs to them or that their money holds any value. It's like Paul and one Corinthians saying, why are you going to civil court over church matters? We don't acknowledge the judgment of the civil court. How can you go and make a claim when those who are under the gospel have no right to make any claim? How can you make a claim on the basis of the cross? This is such an important teaching and everyone stumbles over it, Richard, because everyone is stuck on the human ideological scale. Where do I fall on this scale? And Jesus is saying, I don't acknowledge your scale. It has no value to me. The heavens and the earth belong to the Lord. How can Caesar print a coin based on some measure of his power and wealth as a promise that he has power? And then you expect me to acknowledge this measuring stick? I can't. Sorry, you're the idol worshipers. I have nothing to say to you. They miss the point in thinking that Caesar is some kind of reference point. This is the problem. Caesar is not a reference point. He's only another one of the people who is working the land under the one who owns the land. And this is what the people forget and this is what the people miss because they think that Caesar, because he's working this piece of land, has some kind of value that now he can decide how the land is being used, how the people that are working with him need to run. This is not true. The only one who decides what happens with the land is the one who owns the land. And there's only one owner. Caesar works for him. Which means Caesar's value when you submit to him is that he is a brother in the Lord. Not that he's a son of the gods or wields some power because of himself. And on this basis, you submit to him because he is under God and God tells you to submit to your fellow servants. So you submit. God puts Caesar there. He put the scribes and the Pharisees there. He put your friends there. He put your enemies there for your edification. And so when you submit in this way in obedience to the commandment to love the neighbor, then you are edified by Scripture and you show deference to God the Father. So Caesar is irrelevant, but you're still stuck with him. This is very difficult to accept if your orientation is sociopolitical or ideological because you want to find out who the right Caesar is and where the right side is. But there is no right side in Scripture except on the cross.