 Good evening and welcome to the Center for Strategic and International Studies. See a lot of old friends here. Hi, Queenie Fiji is in the house. All right. Good. It is great to be with you all tonight This is just a fantastic fantastic book fantastic author My great colleague Chris Johnson is gonna take over the show in a minute But just I just wanted to deliver a couple opening remarks and welcome you all here to CSIS First up first off I have to say, you know the book of course is called Confucius and the world he created Many of you have seen it on the web But please take a look at how beautiful this book is and buy two or three of them in the back We have we you know we have that I mean it's it's not Christmas for a while But Easter is coming up and there's many other holidays that you can share with your friends Absolutely, I bought this for my uncle who's in Florida my high uncle Jerry he's watching on on the webcast because he can't be here tonight and This is something that I've had a lot of people say to me I wish I was in town because I just want to to be there for this event So what we did was we webcast and so you know we have probably as many people or more in this room watching online So thank you all for watching online In addition if you want to watch this event again, we'll have it on demand on CSIS You can follow CSIS at CSIS I Wanted just to give a couple opening remarks Michael Schumann of course is Beijing based author and journalist He's a former time correspondent Based in Beijing since 2002 reporting on Asia related issues in the global economy He also previously worked at the Wall Street Journal for six years in Forbes He's been in Asia as a journalist for 16 years in total He's also Author of the international bestseller the miracle epic story of Asia's quest for wealth Michael's interviewed leading people in Asia Throughout the years including South Korean president Kim Dae-jung Singapore PM Lee Kwan-yoo Taiwanese president Ma Philippine president Oreo and more he also intended dinner in North Korea with Kim Jong Eel, which not many people say that can say they have and Hopefully we won't get in trouble with the North Koreans tonight Yeah, but with that I I know you all came here to hear from Chris and from Michael So please with your applause will you welcome my colleague Chris Johnson Michael Schumann? Well, thanks everyone for coming. We're very pleased to see such a big crowd, you know, it's What's fascinating to me about Michael's book is as I was as we were thinking about this event We were sort of I was sort of thinking well This is somewhat of an esoteric, you know subject But I think when we think about when we think about the role that Confucius is playing now in Asian societies and especially in my neck of the woods China and the changes that we've seen In the way the Chinese Communist Party Interacts with Confucius as a concept. I think it's very relevant and timely For us and has very significant policy consequences So with that I noticed I got promoted to Dr. Johnson. I'm very happy with that. I don't think you did so That's okay So I think Michael one of the things that you maybe just start us off by by sort of I'm one thing that really struck me in reading the book is that it's almost like you were on a narrative journey as you were going through the Different chapters, you know and and sort of I liked the way that you broke down the different pieces And how he has been sort of maintained relevance by being interpreted and reinterpreted over and over again So maybe you can share with us kind of your thought process as you were putting, you know That was parts of the book together and and and and was it something whereas you did the research It led you down different paths or did you kind of have a vision for where you were going and and was there a central? Organizing principle that you were sort of trying to get at in the search I think most writers would like to say oh, I knew exactly where I was going for the very beginning But that would not be true. No, I this was actually a very new subject for me Because my background was actually in economics and I started on this mainly because I Couldn't find a book on the subject that Answered my questions about Confucius and who he was and why His ideas became so important and what they mean today and so I really started from zero I started with a carrying around a copy of the antelix in my bag and literally started I started reading some of the old texts and and building from there and What I started with and what I ended up with were actually actually quite different I think we all have an image Most of it have an image of Confucius in our minds already And what he stood for that he's some kind of crazed arch conservative or He's he believes in autocracy and he hates women and all these other things about him And then when you go back and read the original Writings and you see what happened over time and how things played out You end up with a very different idea about Confucius and what his role really was and what he meant his role to be and And how that's and how that has changed and but also why his ideas Are so important today still despite all of the centuries of change politically economically socially Why were so why we still need to talk about Confucius now? And and on those lines something I was very intrigued by in the kind of chapter on you know Confucius the man the person Was this sort of like? Sort of epilogue of failure every time he turned around he never achieved really any of his main goals He did not have the influence We were talking in the green room a few moments ago about someone analogous to Diogenes and in Greece you know walking around with a lamp of truth But was seen as sort of a gadfly perhaps at the time so can you expound on that a little bit and and You know maybe draw out for us the distinction between How that process occurred while he was alive and then how he was resuscitated or you know how he came right into the four if you will Yeah, I mean the actual story of Confucius I mean even in the even in the texts that are written by people who are obviously big fans of Confucius Really paint him as as a man who who very much meant well in his life and achieved in the end very very little He was born in this sixth century BC into a time in China that was Very violent where you had a lot of petty kings and dukes all fighting fighting out fighting it out for for treasure and for territory and He developed a doctrine That he but he felt was based on the wisdom of an even earlier age in Chinese history That he believed would restore peace and order and prosperity to China And he basically spent a life wandering around attempting to get people to listen to him and in the end He he didn't and I think I fear that he died thinking that his quest had failed and and his his ideas were I Would never really gain hold but where he did excel Was as a teacher he he had collected around him very loyal Students we know as his disciples. We don't know how many there were The numbers range between something like 70 and 3,000 So we don't really know but he hadn't he had a core group of loyal followers who were devoted to him for his entire life and They carried on his message and they they found students of their own and those students found students and so on so on so on They started to write down what he said Confucius did not write the antelix though But we don't think that he did we think it was probably the Students of his students who started writing down what he said, which was a big thing back then to have your thoughts written down And his message got carried on and it became a More and more complex doctrine that eventually came to be seen as basically the foundation of Chinese civilization And were you able in your in your sort of work to to determine was there? Was there distortion that occurred you know because of that process of you know Stories if you will that were handed down and handed down again I mean in again that's sort of a religious analogy somewhat similar to the teachings of Jesus in this regard I know written much later than actual events. Did you were you able to kind of parse those issues at all? well, there's all kinds of stories and myths about Confucius and his life There's there's some great tales about how he he was made he was a supernatural being who had some kind of Super Being as a as a father kind of like the old Greek myths about you know Perseus and that kind of thing But even more importantly for us today. It was also his ideas that also got reinterpreted and reinterpreted and interpreted some more and refashioned some more and those refat those Reinterpretations got reinterpreted Depending on what was going on at the time and what the needs were and what what ideas were popular and so what happened over the next 2,500 years is that Confucius teachings began to take on all different kind of ideas and forms some of them maybe not all that positive ultimately some of them very Some of them maybe much more spiritual than the original teachings some of the more political But the Confucius there's there's there's no one Confucius There were multiple Confucius's who are all very important in their own times And the Confucius that we think of today is not the Confucius of 200 years ago And definitely not the Confucius of 2,000 years ago You one thing I'd be curious about you know where we seem to be now in the region and another era of Discussion of unique Asian values Chinese President Xi Jinping has sort of talked about Asia for Asians and and there have been other leaders who have talked about this This obviously was very much in vogue in the 90s and you know was there a distinctive and the whole debate Especially relevant to China right now with regard to so-called universal values or Western values How does he fit into the to the picture there and and do you think that? You know in some cases these governments have unfairly hijacked some of his Teaching He's playing a very important part right now because I think what the Chinese government is is attempting to to do is present an alternative system to American-style Democratic capitalism and they're trying to say much as you said much as at least one you did in the in the 80s and 90s and his Asian values argument that Western concepts of democracy and human rights are not universal that nations have their own political history based on their own culture and their own philosophy and China's his Is presenting a challenge to the West that's not just economic and political and strategic But also ideological saying that we have our own system that we that we like better than your system and we think our system is actually rooted in our in our own culture and Confucius is playing a very important part of that because the government in Beijing sees him as a as a truly indigenous political tradition that they think Can't support the current regime the current authoritarian regime while kind of holding off these More dangerous from their view dangerous ideas of Western democracy and human rights so Confucius have become part of this much much greater vision of China's role in the world what China wants to be What the Chinese government what what Chinese political future what what the Chinese Communist Party wants the political future for the country to be Right, right and interesting possible contradiction Of course to that is the notion that you highlight in the book of how he and his followers particularly his followers were keen to Reform the governments that they were serving in or under rather than somehow try to seek to undermine them or overthrow them To some degree that works to the Communist Party's you know sort of bent But also there's a question of defining what reform should be So do you have a feel for how his initial teachings fit into that? And then how do you see that being used in the current context living in Beijing? I mean what the Confucius that the Chinese Communist Party is latching on to now is Very similar to the Confucius that the old imperial governments use you know There was this imperial Confucius that stressed ideas like hierarchy and loyalty and obedience Filial piety was became a very important idea in the imperial years, and this was this is all designed to Support what is really an authoritarian government at the same and while at the same time making it look like the emperors had the moral right to rule What's happening today is To certain extent the new emperors of China the leaders of the Congress Party Are basically dusting off this idea with some small changes on the margins and trying to use Confucius in the exact same way What's interesting when you go back and read the original writings and the original ideas? That's really not what Confucius was about at all He was his his political message was one of virtue that He wasn't about coercion. He was about the power of Benevolent government that if a leader is truly Benevolent and truly cares about the people that Coercion becomes unnecessary that people will love the guy so much that they'll just follow him willingly and Who needs laws and punishments and all that stuff when an army isn't this at all become somewhat Unnecessary when virtue take virtue takes hold Confucius came out very clearly against things like the death penalty Uses of power Confucius it was very much about the constraint of absolute power not not the practice of absolute power man and I think what's interesting today is now that the Chinese government is become It had become accepting of Confucius again and Is actually encouraging people to go back and read the old writings and find reconnect with Confucian traditions and ideas What will they find whether were they were they find the Confucius of Xi Jinping where they find different Confucius and that means something else to them and maybe They'll find a Confucius that doesn't share the political ideas of the Chinese Communist Party and then what it's what does that mean going forward? Oh related to I mean just as you were talking I did what jumped to mind was you know What did Confucius have to say about corruption? And the anti-corruption campaign and so on how do you see that well actually what was very what's really interesting about that is that? the President Xi has actually tried to employ Confucius in his anti-corruption campaign Yeah, you very often see him quoted corny Confucius or other Confucian thinkers when he's addressing officials or party party cadres and I think that he feels that The the government of the country at large to certain extent Could be could could help could could be helped by a good kind of old-fashioned dose of Confucian morality So he's you'll see in the newspapers Editorials about how really good government civil servants should follow Confucian ideas and things like that so Confucius himself obviously was very much about upright government and Putting the interests of the of the nation the greater good over your own interests. So in that way it fits quite nicely Whether he'd agree with the way the current government is going about his anti-corruption campaign. Well, that's another story You mentioned the issue of filial piety and its importance I would assume not just in a China context, but but regionally to what degree do you think though that That whole concept has created problems or you know has has had unintended consequences that that have been negative You know you mentioned before you engaged in this enterprise your focus is economics and business coverage and so on how do you see? Chinese and other Asian business culture Reflecting those Confucian values and you know, there's often commentary about how innovation is a problem things like this So how do you see that in the context of your work? From the economics end point, I there's there's some good and bad. I think there are some Confucian ideas that have infiltrated into corporate practices in East Asia I think it's Especially in South Korea, Japan more so than China that I I think are quite positive And I think some companies here in the US might want to might want to look at them could solve some of our problems I mean Most of all what I found what I found really interesting during the the last financial crisis when When companies in the US were laying off millions of people You found companies in Asia putting out press releases about we will not lay off one one person You know and I met managers and talked to them about this and said well, why are you why are you doing this? And they they suddenly they don't necessarily even call it Confucian Confucianism But they certainly start talking about well We have responsibilities to the family the company being the family and I'm I'm the head of the household I'm now I had one South Korean businessman actually say well, I'm the head of the family So I have to behave in that way and They felt that it was basically a Morally inappropriate To be cutting people from their jobs who who had families of their own And they were willing to make sacrifices in the short term for that They also think this is great business in the long term that you as Confucius would predict If you treat people well, they'll be they'll treat you well and they'll be loyal So they feel that they have a loyal well-trained workforce that they can count on over the long term and that saves them the cost of having to Recruit and retrain workers all workers all the time On the on the downside, I think you'll you'll find that one problem that companies face in Asia especially in Japan is that Some of the concept of hierarchy and feel feel piety have become so entrenched that Younger staff members are kind of deprived of their voice Things become too top-down and that suppresses innovation. It suppresses open discussion and when you talk to Kind of corporate consultants and things like that in Japan and they start talking about what's wrong with Japan Inc. They again won't necessarily use the word Confucian But what they're talking about is this kind of overbearing hierarchy that's seeped into the major Japanese companies that has kind of stifled their Nimbleness that they need to compete in the modern world. So Philopiety has a I guess has as good and as bad depending on how it manifests itself Obviously there's been you know controversy about these Confucian institutes In various places You know you mentioned that you sort of discovered a different Confucius than you had thought You know when you went into it, what's your sense of how the teachings do or do not comport? You know with these institutions and how do you see that as a as a concept? it's the Confucian institutes really have nothing to do with Confucius. We're not actually teaching anything about Confucius, but China has has using Confucius as as basically a brand or a soft power ambassador Trying to capitalize on his image is a while for wisdom and pacifism to Allay the world's fears about what arising China means and what China's role will be in the world Where they become controversial is in some academics Criticize the program for being an attempt by China to control the discourse at universities around the world about China what what happens when you have a Confucius Institute in very simple terms and there's the Chinese government is basically supporting Chinese studies at your University and they have a certain element of control over what those what those programs are about So to a certain extent it's a university kind of outsourcing their Chinese studies To this to the Chinese government and what does that what does that mean going forward? I think they there's been enough sensitivity about this that that's why you've seen Some prominent universities we think their relationship University of Chicago is one that's a state Pennsylvania State University They decided this is really not something we want to be a part of when you bring this up in China that you know Chinese officials are like well, this is a perfectly this is a Benign program where we're supporting Chinese language and and also they'll they'll say We don't want China to be just to be known for you know making making iPads and we want We want China to have a different role a greater role in the world and a greater part in global civilization And this is our way of doing that So I think this is a controversy that's going to be raging on over the next few next few years Obviously here at the center, you know in our name strategic studies is something that's very important to us and obviously international relations and so on I think we see President Xi certainly moving in some of it of a different direction with regard to sort of China's international profile and so on Did you detect in your research to do? Confucian values or statements or sort of thought play any role in that sort of shift of you know China's You know it's our time sort of a mantra that's been popular under Xi Jinping Well the Chinese one of the favorite words of the Chinese government these days as you know from following the speech is harmony Yes, harmony a society and I they very much mean that domestically But I think they're also pointing it globally internationally and definitely regionally I think China wants to paint an image of itself as being being a World power that Will bring will not bring confrontation with its with its rise Of course, you could argue that runs counter to its actual actions on the ground in the South China Sea It's relations with with Japan is relations with India. So to a certain extent you have this Two different things going on you have kind of the the realities of Chinese relations with his neighbors Which in many cases are not all that positive and you could argue had deteriorated in the last two or three It's since Xi Jinping who's taken a much more aggressive stand and on the other hand is on the other side There's kind of there's open kind of PR campaign to make it look like China wants a different role in the region that then I think its neighbors are experiencing right now To be kind of fair to Beijing I think they've realized the disconnect recently and even I think you've noticed that they Seed to have pulled back in some of these territorial disputes and they're trying to use things over with Vietnam and Suddenly things have gone a little bit quiet with Japan and things like that I think they realize that they're the rhetoric about what they want their eyes to be in the actual practice of what their policy was has started to Diverge to the point where it's becoming a problem for them But it will be interesting to see it try to Continues to gain in an influence and across the board economic political military Whether it's this Harmonious could China that turns out to be the dominant force or whether it's kind of the more nationalist or aggressive China Yeah, I think one of the certainly one of you know on that theme one of the key Relationships that's been very interesting to watch the development in the last year or two is China South Korean relations And obviously in South Korea as you mentioned you have a deeply Confucius Confucian Society Do you see a role? for you know sort of Synergies around Confucianism or would China seek to use that as a as a sort of common bond Between the two countries to help I mean obviously the economic relationship is what draws them together most closely But do you see an element of that sort of ideological? convergence perhaps I Think Beijing would very much like to recreate what China had in the imperial days, which is a cultural a cultural affinity throughout the region that Led to the great China that contributed to China's great influence in East Asia Whether or not that's actually going to happen in the modern world It's a South Korean relationship. I think it's a fascinating one with China on the one hand China is of course immensely important to South Korea On the economic side Its companies are a very influential role in China the Chinese benefit tremendously from all the all of the Korean investment Samsung sells a lot of phones in China and and they benefit greatly from it and and I think you've seen Periods to where the where Seoul has actually grown closer to Beijing on some political Strategic issues as well At the same time, you know you those all the old tensions and the old concerns about what arise rising China means for South For Korea, especially based on its own rather tortured history in the region Those don't go away either and I think you'll find that China's actions with Japan and the Philippines of Vietnam have only heightened South Korean concerns that China's rise may not be positive for Korea over the long term and that's why I think you've seen a Rather substantial decrease in the anti-American sentiment in recent years in South Korea I don't know when the last time I've seen a big anti-American protests in Seoul And of course the government attitude has become much more probably much more pro-American as well So I think this is something China is facing Across the whole region where everyone benefits greatly from China's rise Economically, but everyone seems to be a little wary about what that means what that means for them strategically China would like some of these confusion ideas to kind of help smooth that process over right But then there's the reality of the what's going on the ground Yeah, no, I think it's it's been interesting to watch. It seems to me despite some of the Hand-wringing especially here in Washington about that relationship, you know, Madden pock seems to be Consistently drawing a bright red line around the security relationship and I think the Chinese are sensitive to that One thing that's interesting. I think it's fair to say and we've been seeing it in our narrative Here with you know We've had some recent pieces and prominent newspapers by prominent Chinese scholars about the party being doomed And and and so on and and it's I think it's emblematic of the fact that when you look at the Reforms that were part and parcel of the third plenum. I mean these are very Structure and and and sort of systemic changing Advanced and I think it's provoking a societal debate right about what kind of China do we want to be? And in some ways, I think it mirrors Some of the debates that took place in the 80s over direction and you know this sort of thing and ideology Do you see the confusion phenomenon playing in that societal debate and and and does the leadership see that as helpful? Unhelpful does it depend on who's making the argument? How do you how do you see that? Yeah, I I think what China is attempting to do right First of all, you know that the leadership is facing immense challenges right now They're facing an economy that has I Basically, I think the height the high growth period in China is effectively over We are we are not going to see not nine percent ten percent growth rates again at least not with any consistency so you're looking at a and a government that for the last 35 years has Had based its legitimacy on rapid development and rapidly rising incomes And those that's going to become harder to achieve Going forward on What they need to do to keep that great that great miracle story going Is going to take a degree of reform that that some have characterized to me as being even harder than what Deng Xiaoping engineered in 7980 Well, you're you're you're you're getting at a Fundamental change in the in the government relationship with the economy and therefore with society And that shows up in the third plenum document, which is very very sweeping in his nature and really really it really means that a Communist party that has maintained Tremendous levers of control over over enterprise and private and state enterprise losing a lot of those levers and The way Confucius fits fits into all of this is the party has had realized already quite some time ago that just Delivering material benefits is not enough to Sustain the regime over the long term that they have to stand for something more or something bigger than that And I think that's how they turn to Confucius in the first place Marxism was supposed to be that right that core foundation That that doesn't work so well anymore, so So they've gone back to and of course they don't want Western ideas about democracy and elected government either So they they said we need some other form of legitimacy. We need some other way of Justifying the government as it is And oh, you know this Confucius guy can probably can probably help us they They they think that it's a way of Look having the the country move forward economically without necessarily moving forward Politically, you know one one of the one of the challenges that Xi Jinping is going to be facing Probably the biggest challenge is that he wants to bring about a more and more dynamic more open economy if you believe the policy statements while having effectively no change on the political front and Probably very little change on the social civil society front. Yeah, so how do you how do you engineer this? I don't think we have any idea I but I think that he's hoping that a return to Confucius as a as a True Chinese political tradition or should I say if the form of Confucius he wants to reintroduce can help with this incredibly complex process of reform and I He to somehow smooth over the contradictions that are kind of embedded naturally embedded in that process. Yeah You mentioned in a moment ago, and I think it's very important, you know, this whole notion of Finding new forms of legitimacy and and one of those I think Especially when it comes to issues of Tibet and Xinjiang and other areas, there's a heavy emphasis on a desire to Attain historical legitimacy, so does Confucius play a role for them in terms of you know Attaining some of that historical legitimacy as the party being the you know continuing representative if you will of that ancient Well, I think the party is trying to I don't know how much this will help with their minority issues Which is a separate issue who don't necessarily share the same traditions, right? but I think they are trying to sell the Chinese Communist Party as the defender of Chinese tradition against outside influence They are trying to paint the party is as a natural extension. Yeah of previous political regimes To a certain extent they will never use this language, but they're they're trying to sell it as you know Another imperial you know government with a new set of emperors that language will never get used but that's effectively what they're They're there that the Communist Party is an inheritor of yeah, you know a couple millennia of political traditions and that they are the defender of these Traditions and his history Whether they can kind of sell this idea to the greater public We don't know and of course it's very hard to tell But you know that's that's I think part of also what I we were talking about earlier about this The greater effort of the training government to present an alternative system to the world It's a big part of this that they that that the Communist Party is a representative of something much deeper in Chinese history Great. Yeah. Okay. Well. Thank you. Why don't we open it up to the audience for questions and per standard CSIS practice? if you can introduce yourself and Say where you're from Organizationally or otherwise and please do restrict your Question to a question not a soliloquy and wait for the wait for the mic the gentleman in the very back there first hand up Can Dylan's yet see a press is Is it possible that in addition to aiming this Confucianism against the West there's also a more covert aim and that is to try to suppress the revival of religious Indigenous religious movements particularly Buddhist Falun Gong and so on I I only got a few I miss a few words. I think the question is is the Interdict is the party using Confucianism to suppress You know in that quest for meaning in spiritual meaning and so on the reintroduction of other forms No, that's what you talk about this in the book the boogeyman versus Not really. I mean, I think what's going on in China and other parts of the region is Something more general return to a tradition You know, I met an academic Gentleman named Kishor Mabobani who's who's the Dean of the Lee Kuan Yew School in Singapore and the way he described it Was that ages gained? He's he's a cultural confidence for much of the last hundred hundred fifty years Being modern men being Western and becoming more and more Westernized and I think that's beginning to change in Asia where now that the region has been so successful I think people are going back to their their their own traditions and saying hey You know, maybe we can be Asian and modern and and successful and you're seeing people from all walks of life Return to all the reading about old doctrines You know ancient literature all kind of things like that and it's not just Confucius Confucius is a primary one because of the influence that Confucius has had on the region But it's also Taoism and Buddhism. There's been a big Buddhist revival in China as well I'm always surprised when you when I Meet people at businessmen and that kind of thing how how often they'll start talking about some ancient texts They just read I was I did interview a year ago with the CEO of hire the appliance company Yeah, and I mentioned somehow it came up in conversation. I was writing this book on Confucius He's oh, I I like Confucius, but I much prefer Taoism and he started going on about Taoism so so I think well, I think what you're seeing is something actually much much bigger and I this is going to have I think amazing Consequences for not just Asia but for for global society generally that these Asian Traditions philosophical traditions religious traditions. I think I'm going to be playing a much bigger role on the world's safe Just like Asian economies are and just like it age is becoming more important politically as well So you're going to see Asia contributing more and more to kind of a global culture great Let's go with the woman here in the red scarf That's you To steal your mic moment Hi, sorry, I'm Jacqueline and I'm already from Jacqueline. Sorry. I'm just from DC Sorry, no official affiliation A second ago you were talking about like a conversation that you had just with someone who who was reading Taoism who was reading Confucius When you're talking about things that government officials here or business leaders here should pay attention to In regards to this resurgence of Confucius Should they be paying more attention to What government officials like Xi Jinping are talking about? When he's talking about what he thinks Confucius looks like or should we be paying more attention to things like? like you done and the popular philosophical books may be that every day like Chinese or Americans might be reading like I guess you're talking about the public at large Yeah, I guess not just not just in China. I don't know if you don is popular everywhere But it was where I lived or she was where I lived but even Like people in Taiwan who are bringing back like Like Wu Jin xiong that the Christian Confucian dialogues or People who are bringing Confucianism into dialogue with all sorts of different things. Do we look more at? Like what the academics are saying like you Hua or do we look at what Xi Jinping is saying or do we look at? What's selling well in China like I? Guess I'm I guess my question is where do you think? I Don't know what sources do you think this resurgent is going to pull from is it going to be the government? Or is it going to be some of these other areas? Well, I certainly said I think it depends on who you are I think if you're a scholar here at CSIS I'd be very interested in what Xi Jinping is saying about Confucius and what role that plays in policy and what that means for China's relations with the rest of the world But I think what you what you're going to see going on and in this kind of revival of tradition is that Different people are going to be taking different things from these these doctrines and ideas and I That's actually a great thing. It was going to be I think a revived revival of debate over What where what value these traditions have in the modern world What they mean what they mean to different people and what role they should play go, you know going forward and in some cases some of these ideas may Made we may look at them and decide that they're out of date For example, some Confucian ideas on women. I think there's a lot of women in Asia who would say well We don't really need this anymore But but then though People will well, but then there's other people who are looking at this on a entirely personal level looking for kind of spiritual nourishment in a changing world And so I think what you're seeing going on is different people reattaching to Confucian texts and ideas and for their own purposes and Gaining from it in very very different ways and then this they're going to contribute to modern society In very different ways based on what they get out of it, and I think that's that's a great thing I think the danger here is that People do take one reading of Confucius that people will take the Xi Jinping version as the the soul orthodoxy on Confucius and Not revisited themselves and determine what it means what it means to them and what it should mean in modern society Gentlemen here in the black Thank you. I'm Matias Yilivitsky research intern at the victims of communism Memorial Foundation I was very happy to hear that Marxism is no longer playing an important part legitimacy the legitimacy of the Chinese government and Considering that China is still the biggest country on earth professing to defend the communist government I wanted to ask you if it's possible or quite optimistic To wait for an open break with communist ideology from the part of either the Chinese current Political authorities or the Chinese Communist Party. Thank you Just Confucianism or these other you know you mentioned just now the sort of debate this is stirring What is the possibility that it could act as an alternative ideology to the communist part? With the leadership Yeah, with something like this. Well, that's that's interesting. It's interesting question because if you go back and you read read the intellects You'll find that Confucius was Not terribly afraid of standing up to authority contrary to what we really think of him that he basically spent his entire life wandering around China Telling the ruling elite of the day that they didn't know what they were doing and they should follow his ideas And he didn't he didn't believe in serving governments that he could he felt were immoral Or or corrupt that he would rather be unemployed so I Think if what the the Communist Party in that way is actually somewhat taking of a little risk that they think Confucius is going to be able to help them Sustain the current system and suppress dissent But as people go back and read the analytics and they see what Confucius did his own life and what he said about government and the high standards high moral standards that he held government officials to Then you have to wonder well, will Confucius actually end up creating a Form of opposition to the current government rather than a support for for the government Which Confucius will they choose to to adhere to and I think that's a fascinating question People are reading the analytics again, and they are they're they're going to take you learn their own ideas from it And and they're going to mix those ideas and the new ideas they get from the outside world that you know China is China's not a close society people are traveling and being educated overseas They're coming back and they they go to Harvard they go back to China with all kind of I you know different ideas They had then they had when they left So how do Confucius principles mix into these global ideas and what does that mean for the Communist Party going forward? We don't know any of the answers of any of these questions, but it'll definitely be interesting I think I think the fact that he was constantly telling government. They didn't know what they were doing So he may have been the original think tanker possibly And and no one listened to him It's a perfect analogy that almost exactly the same the woman in the back with the glasses and the blonde hair. Yep Hi, my name is Barbara Dello, and I'm from New York. I think earlier you said something about Confucius's Ideas kind of being the basis or the essence of Chinese culture And I wondered what Character or which of his ideas would you say are most important that have kind of followed through and Kind of help formulate Chinese culture The question is basically up from his teachings you mentioned that it's very central to Chinese culture And and so I think she's asking what elements of the teachings. Do you think have been the most? Okay, do I have that right ma'am that where you were yeah, yeah, okay, I'm sorry about that. I need to translate her from English to English Anyway, so I would I would have there's there's a lot of Confucian influence that's still around and and you would think it I mean I obviously it's an age of globalization and Just like any society China and South Korea Japan are not as traditional as they used to be just like society here It's not as traditional however you want to define that as as it used to be So Confucian ideas have become mixed in with all kind of other stuff at the same time, you know you'll you'll find that Things don't work the same way in Asia as they do here and a lot of that is Confucian influence and and people won't necessarily Identify this Confucian. They'll just say oh, this is what we do every day, but but ultimately its background is in Confucian ideas I think most of all it It happens in the family Where ideas of filial piety and really with the way relations of the family are supposed to be ours are still actually quite strong and Yeah, maybe they become a little more westernized on the margins But the core is still there and you know, I found that out myself by my wife is Korean American and grew up in the Midwest and he's about as American as as anybody most of the time And then you hit her on certain issues and you find out that those traditions are still there passed down, you know within her family even in outside of Chicago filial piety being Probably the top of the list I'm expected to be the good the good Asian Even though I'm not Asian and if I fall out of line, you don't want to fall out a lot I think you'll also find it a Not all the influences are positive We I mentioned how a lot of women who especially those who are professionally oriented will will rant about continued Confucian influence and In society and especially in the corporate world There has to be a reason why a women play a much smaller role in Corporations in Japan and South Korea than they do in the US, you know, there's a International Monetary Fund study done about I think it was 2012 That showed that only 9% of management positions in Japan and South Korea are held by women in the US It was 43% And these are prejudices that the Confucius himself did not outline them very clearly became a part of Confucian tradition of the separation between the outer world and the inner world the the outer realm was where What was for men and it was politics and commerce and civic life in the inner world was a household where Managing the home raising children Each role was equally important in the Confucian way of thinking Someone had to raise good good moral children at home And that role was handed to women But in in modern times what it does it prevents women from Playing the role in society that they would that they they they want to play So I think these are these ideas live on both positively and negatively in many ways That'll I think a lot of people themselves don't even really necessarily recognize I think I've been neglecting the front rows here. So let's take one from the front. Yeah, just wait for the microphone Wait for the microphone, please My name is Anne Varum and I'm from DC. I had a question for you from sort of the author's perspective I'm old enough to remember back to the gang of four era where you had actual anti Confucianism Oppression and of course prior to that many Confucian scholars imprisoned Etc as part of the old regime way of thinking pre-mal Do you ever sort of feel a twinge of Sympathy for those people who tried to as scholars maintain the Confucian body of knowledge who were You know in some instances again Obliterated for that in that context just as an author sort of a sympathy to Authors who tried to you know maintain the body of knowledge and and were repressed for that reason Well, you know, there's When you look throughout Confucian history the Confucians have a reputation of being a Psychophantic isn't quite a little too strong, but you know The Confucians had a reputation of basically being Officials officials of the state right they took their they studied their Confucian classics They took their exams and they then they filed into the bureaucracy and they were basically the The pillar of the imperial regime But when you kind of read about a lot of Confucians over the years You found out that they could also be a pretty belligerent angry bunch who often did not agree what the What the the royal the royal court was doing and we're not particularly shy about explain explaining themselves and arguing and I think this is a great Confucian tradition that often gets gets overlooked and You know these these these people in China who attempted to Defend not just kind of defend Confucian tradition and Chinese tradition But you were willing to stand up to the government generally are part of are part of that tradition you know Confucians believe that You weren't doing your duty unless you remonstrated a word that comes up a lot in all an old Confucian test unless you unless you remonstrated with authority Even if you ended up losing the argument and it wasn't the point you kind of had to make the argument Otherwise you could you weren't doing your job and Unfortunately that that Confucian sentiment is is often old is often overlooked And you'll see in China today whether I don't know if it's a Confucian tradition or not But you'll see people in China today take take great risks to stand up for what they they believe in and in a way that We in the we here in the US don't have to at all and they're they're willing to do it And that's what makes is we're mentioning earlier now that you have a Reintroduction of Confucian ideas, you know How does that play in play into this? Does does the government win this battle and they they have a Confucius that supports the government? Or do the public take a different view of Confucius and what he managed and what he tried to do and how does that play itself out? So on a personal level you ask me a personal question I didn't give you a personal answer, but I'm on a personal level, you know, I'm I have Incredible respect for the people who have the guts to stand up to the current government in China and there are a lot of them and a lot of people do it all kinds of small ways and It's something that I Mean I I've been outsider and you know I'm a journalist and I write things about China that I don't think the government likes very much But I have American passport and I don't take the same risks that these people do so I have tremendous respect for them Okay, I think we have time for one last one show right here in the sweater and Jack Could you compare and contrast a little bit between the Confucius of China and the Confucius of its neighbors in the way they interpreted him and Is there any bearing? From the differences on their modern relationships. I'm sorry to compare Confucian culture in China to again I didn't I only got the question Can you can you compare Confucianism as it exists in China or how it's evolved in China to other Confucian societies? Okay, I thought that's what you said I actually heard that one. Okay, I didn't actually need that transfer. Okay, um, I'll be sending you a bill for interpretation That's a huge question What's actually what I found interesting is in reading Confucian history is how it was actually the neo Confucian Reformation of Confucianism is what that really took hold in a big way around the region and and so You had Confucian influence in in Korea and to a lesser extent Japan To some extent of Vietnam at an earlier stage of the neo Confucian. So this is we're talking Going going to the 12th and 13th centuries But you saw kind of a much more dramatic impact After it took on that neo Confucian aspects when those aspects were actually much more in many ways much more spiritual and a much more comprehensive doctrine About life and other things they were it had stolen ideas from Buddhism and and and other stuff so a lot of what you see in Korea and Japan is all is almost a very late stage of How Confucianism they had developed in China Great Well, you know this has been great Michael. Thank you so much for sharing your you know so often when we do our events I've been doing them all day today unfortunately where we spend our time salaciously guessing what Xi Jinping is going to do and who's going to Knock off next and so on and so on and so this has been very refreshing to think about something that's a little more sort of Mind enabling and in content. So thank you and I really want to thank the audience You guys have been very interactive and I really appreciate that so let please join me in thanking Michael