 Good afternoon and welcome to the second session of discussing our segregated high school lives. Not long ago for some of us, more recently for others. I'm honored to be a part of this particular discussion because it is history that needs to be shared, because there are experiences that were unique in a time that will not appear again as such. And because of that, we have some information that we can share about those experiences that are relevant. And we want young people to know about it. My name is Erinetta Pierce, and I am from Nashville, Tennessee. But I got to Texas as they say as soon as I could. I probably qualify to be a part of this panel because I went to a segregated high school. Of a similar period, anywhere you lived in the South, we probably had similar experiences. Not only did I go to school in the South, but I also then taught school here in San Antonio. We came to San Antonio in 1964. I was a newlywed right out of college and my husband was doing a military residence. And it was a wonderful experience. I taught at Riley Junior High School, which is now Martin Luther King Academy. And so maybe those experiences of having taught in the San Antonio Independent School District, as well as having gone to a segregated high school, can prepare me for listening to some of your experiences and probably relating. We have just enough of an age span so that we can get some graduation of experiences that we will be able to share. But as before I start asking you a few questions, I'd like for you to introduce yourself and just tell us a few things about you that will inform us. We'll start with you, Teri. Okay. Well, thanks for having me. My name is Teri Womack-Williams, and I included that because a lot of individuals here would have known me by that name. I grew up here in San Antonio. I however was born in Galveston, Texas. I've been here since 1968, so I attended public schools here in San Antonio. May not have been during the legal time of segregation. However, the schools were pretty much still segregated on its own, if you will. I grew up on the east side of San Antonio, centered the 1,400 block of Center Street, near Gevers and New Braunfels. I attended Fannin Elementary School for Pre-School, Booker T. Washington for Elementary, Emerson Middle School, and was currently known as Bracken Ridge, but during that time it was Phyllis Wheatley High School. So I'll call myself a San Antonian, you know, not native because I wasn't born here. I have 31 years in economic development all here in San Antonio. Went to the University of Texas at Austin and at San Antonio. However, I would like to have gone to HBCU to Howard. So that's about me. I'll be glad to share any additional information later on. Thank you. Thank you. Alice Rose? Well, my name is Alice Rose Kennedy, and I'm really a lifelong resident of San Antonio. I grew up on the west side and attended Grant Elementary, Dunbar Junior High, and Phyllis Wheatley High School. When I graduated from college, I began my teaching career at Raleigh Elementary Junior High School as well, and spent 30 years in that field. I have two children now. Daughter lives in the Dallas area and a son in Los Angeles and one son that passed about two years ago, and so thank you for having me, and I'm anxious to share. Good afternoon. My name is Sally Edwards-Frederick. I grew up in a small town in a large family, and I've had the opportunity to live in many different places. This is my second time of living in San Antonio. We moved here in 1977 as newlyweds, and we returned in 1999 after our youngest one graduated high school, so each time we've lived here without children. I had the opportunity in Goliath to attend elementary school in a segregated school, and then I had the privilege of integrating the Goliath Independent School District in my 5th grade year, and that's a little bit about me. Thank you. We have very different experiences, and we'll learn a lot from this. Okay. When you think back on high school, I went to a high school in Nashville named Pearl High School, and it's kind of well-known, but we thought it was really, really a special place. But as I listened to some of you earlier today, I learned that we all thought our high schools were special. So I want to know from you what was your high school like, and was it an exciting time for you when you were in high school, and why? We'll start with you. As I said, I grew up in Goliath, Texas, which is a small rural community in South Texas. I attended a small high school. My graduating class had 88 students in it. High school was exciting for me. It allowed me to have many opportunities. My parents encouraged us to participate in as many organizations as possible. My parents encouraged us to participate in as many organizations and events as we could, and so it was exciting. I participated in the band. I was in lots of different organizations. I had a job, and all of those things came with lots more freedom, and just time to explore and decide what I wanted to do with my life. Alice Rose? Well, my high school here in San Antonio was the only school for blacks at that time. Well, the other school was a Catholic school, St. Peter Claver. So you had your choice of going to one of those. I was driven to school every morning. I could either have ridden the bus, but didn't have that option really, and I enjoyed my high school days. I made many friends there. We had two junior schools, so I met the school, the students who came from the east side attended Douglas Junior School, and the students who came from the west side attended Dunbar Junior High School. So then we met and we became friends there, and we had the teachers who were very supportive of us and were interested in our being successful and succeeding in all that we did. There was a wonderful experience, and of course you didn't feel the prejudices that you would have felt in an integrated situation. My high school life, if you will, was a little different. When I introduced myself, if you notice, I said Bracken Ridge, but when I went there, it was called Phyllis Wheatley High School. So there was a name change when I got there. We all kind of feel a little bit, you know, displaced because we have to explain this the school. It was predominantly Hispanic. Bracken Ridge right now is still predominantly Hispanic. But I enjoyed my high school life. Met friends. We still have our alumni meetings for our class of 1981. I think I'm probably the junior member of the panel. But I was able to make a first as the first black valedictorian of the new Phyllis Wheatley High School. So I was glad to be able to have that milestone. I was a little bit of a geek, if you will, in high school. I actually liked things like physics and calculus and was in the computer, math club and the math club. But that was me. But I had fun. One of the things that is indicative of our time in high school is that we knew each other's people. And when I met Terry, my husband, Joe, was very excited to say Terry Womack because you heard her say she liked physics and these kind of subjects. Well, he was a Texas Southern with her father. And they were all science majors. So she comes by it very, very honestly. And it's a small world. And it was then, which leads me into this thought. Nowadays, it's considered challenging to get families, parents connected into the schools or into the school period. Were your parents very involved in your school life? Did they know your teachers by visiting or any other way? What was that like for you? We'll start with you, Alice Rose. Yes, very much so. My teachers and my family, my mother and father, they were all friends. Some of the teachers would even have stopped by the house on their way home after work. Sometimes, of course, it kept me really on the straight and narrow because they could report everything that was going on back to them. And the San Antonio was very different at that time. It was a much smaller community of blacks. And you pretty much did know everyone, all of the black people. But the teachers were very involved in your lives. You saw them in other situations other than just in the classroom. And so you really got to know them and they knew you. And they cared about you and kept you safe. Did you have a favorite teacher? I did have a favorite teacher. I had one in junior high school and another one in high school. Why? Why were they favored? Did she dress well? One of them was a real fashion plate, I would say. And I don't know if I should call her name, but it was Mamie Hastings. And she was quite a fashion plate and she made her classes very interesting. And I admired her an awful lot. And as I said, it was one of the persons that I would see on other occasions. So I knew her. And as I said, in her classes were interesting. And she took a great interest in the students. And then my other favorite teacher was in high school. And her name was Audrey Adams. And she was my Spanish teacher, which was really my favorite class as well. And so much so that I had said I was going to major in Spanish when I went to college. But when I got there and realized that I couldn't just take that, I had to major in foreign languages. So that deterred me from pursuing that as my major. But she too was a very interesting lady. And I enjoyed her classes very much and made them very interesting and took a deep interest in her students. And I learned a lot. Of course, I could go on and say that I had... I'll let you continue with your questions. Keep going. Keep going. Well, living on the west side, my neighbors to the right of me were Spanish, the children. And across the street, Spanish children. I didn't have any black children in my neighborhood, a few black families, but no children. So I grew up with them. And I had kind of learned to speak Spanish by playing with them. So that gave me a little bit of an advantage in the Spanish class, I would say. And which is why I had chosen to pursue that as a major. And that's the first I've heard that you grew up on the west side. I didn't realize as many of my friends that I know have learned and met later grew up also on the west side of San Antonio. We thought the east side was where we dominated. About two blocks from Henry Cisneros home. And around the corner was his wife's family's grocery store that we would go to. Amazing. It's a small world. Thank you. I would just like to mention that the Spanish teacher that she mentioned was something else that was kind of unique to San Antonio. It was that Mrs. Adams was actually a native Spanish speaker from Mexico. And she was African American or African Mexican. And had gone to Howard University and married an African American. And they returned to San Antonio. So that was a unique opportunity for students at Wheatley High School to be taught Spanish by native African teacher. And she was an elegantly lovely lady as well. So that's a unique thing to San Antonio that was available. As I said and I remember in high school I don't recall having any African American teachers which was my unique experience. So my favorite teachers were my distributive education teacher because that was so interesting to me and learning about life and how to live it. And I did impromptu speaking and I won and I had an opportunity to go to state with him. He trained me well. And his wife was my home economic teacher who was and she was also the sponsor for future teachers of America. And my dream was to become a teacher. So those are the reasons that my teacher is my favorite. In regard to the question were my parents actively involved with the school. No they were not. As we think about being actively involved they were not up there. They attended some of my events. But again as I shared earlier I came from a very large family so I had younger siblings that my mom was a stay at home mom took care of them. And my dad was illiterate because he was orphaned at eight and nine and he had not had the opportunity to go to school. And so as so happens with some people who are illiterate they find schools a little bit intimidating. But he did attend events like I said earlier I was in the band and he would park along the fence row to watch me march in the band during half time. But he didn't actively come into events. And so but they were actively involved with us at home. Let me tell you. We'll come back to you're introducing us to your dad a very colorful figure. So we'll I'll find a question appropriate for that Terry. So I grew up as a group as the only child here later as an adult met my to have sisters. So here yes my my grandmother was actively involved in whatever organization I participated in in school high school middle school whatever it was. I'm remembering a picture that was taken before I went off went off to college. You would think we had this big huge family here. I had two sets of God parents. I had my my grandmother and my mom had passed away. Everybody wanted to take a picture before Terry went off down the street just to Austin mind you. But they were actively involved at every stage and talking about how smaller community is. I went to Mount Zion First Baptist Church still a member for 50 plus years. So in high in middle I'm sorry in elementary school. My principal was Earl Campbell who was also a member of Mount Zion. And then the next principal that came after him was Dorothy Pickett who was also a member of Mount Zion. So I had close connections there as far as favorite teachers. I had several favorite teachers. But one that comes to mind in high school is Mrs. Gloria Malone who was my English honors teachers. And also she sponsored the National Honor Society. And even after high school we kept in touch or you know recognized whenever we saw each other. Thank you. Were there activities or rituals or extracurricular activities that your school was best known for. And are that you were always excited about participating in or any sports or band or anything like that. I know in Houston they had a Thanksgiving Day game. And I understand that you know thousands would attend that Thanksgiving Day game between Wheatley and Yates. Was there any kind of well you were the only high school so you couldn't have a rival. So our rival actually was Yates and the other high school that was in Houston. Wheatley. Was there another one there. Washington. Maybe so but I remember what Yates that was our big rival that we would have every year. And of course we had the pep squad and the pep squad and the drum majors and what have you. I would be a substitute maybe in the pep squad. I was not a regular member. I was not into any sports or anything like that. However I did reign as homecoming queen my senior year in high school which was a significant event. And one of the reasons I guess why I did not attend integrate the school the NAACP approached my parents in the fall of 1952 to integrate Thomas Jefferson High School. However my mother did not allow me to do that because of my community I suppose and not having the personality to have been able to deal with what perhaps may have transpired on that campus. I think that takes us right to Sally's position in integrating a school. When you were approached with that what did your parents say? In Goliath we were a little bit behind the ball of integrating the schools. The state had said to integrate the schools and they had not done it. So in 1965 the school board members and I remember that as a nine or ten year old basically a group of white men in suits coming to my parents home. And you know as children will we listen because this is pretty exciting to have these people come and we want to know why they were there. So I remember listening in and I heard them talk to my parents about sending us to school that it was going to be a choice for the first year that they were selecting certain families to send their children. And then the next year everyone all the blacks would come over to from the colored school to the white school and we would all be in school together. After that conversation with the school board members I remember listening to my parents. Like I said we lived in a large family in a small house and at night when it was quiet I listened because I wanted to know what was going on. I've always been very inquisitive and I remember hearing my parents discussing whether or not they should send us to that school. I remember hearing them pray about it together. I remember hearing them you know discuss it cry about it and think about it and talk about the different options. I remember having fear about whether they were going to say yes and I also had fear about whether they would say no. Because I listened to the pros and the cons of going and I wanted to go but I was also as I said I had fear from that perspective. And then the decision was made that we would be integrating that school. Now we were in Goliath so we did not have news media as Ruby Bridges did or the children at Central High. But my day to integrate I mean I remember it. My mother couldn't go with us that morning because as I said before we had she had younger children than she stayed with. But man we were scrubbed clean and dressed ready to go. And my dad took us and as he took us to the school he told us he was going to park down the street just a bit because there were people on the campus. There was a wide sidewalk I remember it and it was lined on both sides with white people that I knew people that my dad had worked for. And he told us that he was going to be right there and as he would say that's got this. You all hold your head up and you walk in there proudly and walk down between them and go in proudly and he said don't look back. Well as I said I listened and the night before I'd heard my mom saying to my dad James Lee don't you take that gun up there. Now my dad was a hunter and he had lots of guns and he was a good shot and we all used guns and we all shot and we were all good at it and we still are. But I remember her saying that's not a good idea and him saying nobody is going to bother my children. And so as he let us out of the car to walk down that across the street and up the sidewalk I remember the sheriff's department was there different people in the community and I looked back. And what I saw I saw my dad with his rifle balanced across the back seat of the car and he was white waiting for anybody to bother us. I was scared but I was at peace because I knew my dad had us. I'll always know that my dad always had us in whatever situation. I know that my mom had been worried about him taking that gun. It gave me a sense of comfort to know that he had it and that we were going to be safe. I felt safe because I knew he was there with that gun pointed at anybody who stepped out of their boundary to step up to us. And I remember walking down that wide sidewalk and looking at people that I knew into homes homes I had been because my dad would go to work and sometimes he was doing things and he would take me along to read directions like putting in baby latches on cabinets he would say come go with me I've never done this before I need you to go read the instructions to me. And so I've been in these people's homes but as I walked down that wide sidewalk and I saw the sheriff who was one of our neighbors didn't make eye contact. I saw other people in the crowd that I knew and when I looked up to them they looked down or they looked away. I was depending on those people and hoping that they would smile at me but they didn't so I felt more comfortable knowing I knew I knew that my dad had me that day. It's quite an experience. I walked in with my head up high, walked up those steps and into that school building and looked back one last time to see that he was still sitting there. And that's how my day started in an all white school as a nine year old little black girl going forward to do what I felt was a good decision because my parents made that decision and they always did what they thought was best for us. That's quite a story. It's amazing and it's an experience that few of us will ever have and thank you for sharing it. I think about a book that has just come out. It's entitled On Juneteenth. It is a book written by Annette Gordon Reed. Annette's story is exactly what you just told. She grew up in Conroe, Texas, near Houston, Texas and probably of a similar age and went through that same process. But I remember hearing you mention that the experience somehow left you on an island. Tell me about that. Yes. As I said earlier, there were select few families that they had gone to and then thinking back on it and having a discussion and my husband and I talked about it again last night. He said, you know, why do you think your family was selected? I think that we were selected because my dad, my parents were well known and well they weren't everybody knew everybody in Goliath. But my parents were very well respected in the community. My sisters and brothers and I, we did well academically and we did well as for as everything in school. We were obedient students. My parents made education a priority. My mom had not been allowed to go to college. She graduated high school and her mother had her work her brothers through college and they were supposed to turn around and send her to college. That didn't happen. They got married and they didn't. And again, my dad education was a number one priority for them and that was our job to go to school and to do well and we did that. So I'm sorry, I get so emotional thinking about this. So they selected us to go and so we went to a place that we really weren't wanted. They didn't want us to come there. They did it because they had to because if they wanted to do it, they would have done it years earlier when the law said do it. And in the black community, and these are people that I know my life, all my life, a lot of them related to me. They thought that we should not have done it. There were many people who didn't think we should have gone. And so it kind of landed us on an island in the fact that you're no longer a huge part, you're no longer really accepted in the black community. You were seen as Uncle Tom's and out of your place and you really weren't wanted in the white community in that school. So you were kind of left on an island. I'm thankful for my sisters and brothers because we're very, very close even to this day. We became each other's best friends, our allies, our support, along with my parents who were always, always very supportive. And my church family, I always say that my church family and I still go back to my hometown and support that church. And my extended family, my aunts and my uncles who gave me support, but as far as the community itself, we landed on an island by choosing to go to integrate Gullad Independent School District. Alice Rose, when you think back on the choice not to go, if you had school-aged children now, would you have made the same decision you think your parents did? Or would you have done it differently? I think I probably would have made the same decision my parents did. That was my senior year in high school that the opportunity came to me. That was one reason for not wanting me to miss my senior year at Phyllis Wheatley. And so if it had been like that, I think I probably would have made the same choice to not to, you know, it takes different personalities to deal with different situations. And frankly, I don't think the experience that my children had in integrated schools was what I would like for them to have experienced. And that was what all that they had, they didn't have an option. And I certainly would have, I think, made the same decision. The choice, I had no part in making the decision as to go to Jefferson or not. It was my mother and father that made that decision, but I would have made the same. Well, Terry, you had that experience. How did you feel as a student who experienced that early sense of integration in your high school? So thinking back, I enjoyed the experience that I had in my elementary school and my middle school, which was predominantly African American. When I got to high school, it was different because of course you still look around for those that look like yourself. It was a different culture, if you will, at the time. It was still the 70s and early 80s, but it was a different culture, different learning experience. And you still looked for those teachers that looked like you as well. And there were a few at Wheatley, aka Bracken Ridge, if you will. But I would say it was still a good experience for college. I have two sons, 30 and 28. They went to HBCUs. I would have liked to have had that experience for myself as well. They went to Texas 7 and Prairie View, and my husband also went to Prairie View. So I think I would have liked to have had that experience. But high school was different but still enjoyable. I can just imagine what it might have been like that. So how were the teachers? The teachers were, I can remember probably having, gosh, one African American teacher. Mrs. Malone, Gloria Malone. Even during that period, most of the teachers were Anglo or Hispanic. Even those that sponsored some of the organizations, even the coaches. So Mrs. Gloria Chandler was one of the counselors there. Mrs. T. Bernice Evans, she was one of the special education instructors there during the time as well. But the teachers, I would say they were good teachers at their craft. No extras. No extras. The things that you had grown to expect from the schools of your earlier grades. Exactly. How about your teachers, Alitros? My teachers were all black, and of course as I said, they were caring. And interested in being successful, trying to prepare you for the world outside. And that's what I said with my children growing up in the integrated schools. I didn't see that, that same type of concern and interest. And I guess that's why I really would, I felt very comfortable in my school. I felt that I was wanted there. And that, I don't think my children had that same feeling in the schools they went to. And of course that was years later, but they were integrated schools. Do you think that has an effect on how a child does academically in the way they're treated by their teacher? I think it certainly does have an effect on how a child does academically when they're not made to believe that they can excel. And the teachers don't push for that. It does make a difference. Good commentary. Thank you. And what was your experience like from the beginning? When we integrated the school, I had one teacher, Mrs. Lawrence, Anglo teacher. The students, we were behind. Even I was a really smart student in the color school. We were behind. The books that we had used were older books. We didn't have books that were new. They all had names in them. And I remember Mrs. Lawrence, and I'm thankful for her, that she pulled me aside and she would help me catch up with whatever areas that I had weaknesses. And I still am grateful to her. And I still see her when I go to go to yet. I mean, I go by the nursing home to see her. As I think about that, and I remember the influence that it had on my own children, we lived in Puerto La Vaca and the African-American population there was about 2%. And I remember when they made out the class schedule, there were two African-American students in my daughter's grade level. And they put them in separate classrooms. And I went to the principal, even though I had requested the teacher that she had, because I had asked people when we moved there, which teacher should I request? And so they told me and I had gotten the teacher I asked for. But when I saw that she was the only one in that class and the other little girl was in another class, I went and I asked him to move her to the class where that other child was. And he was saying, well, you know, we try to spread to have diversity. And I said, I don't care about diversity right now. I want my child to be able to sit in her classroom and look up and see somebody that looks like her, because there were no teachers. I was the only African-American teacher on that campus. And it just so happened that I was on the campus that she was on. And so that was important to me based on my own experiences. Like I said, from the time I integrated the school at 19 years old, I didn't have any more black teachers. I had one African-American teacher in middle school. And that was the only teacher who ever, ever sent me to the office. And that bothered me because I thought, I am a good student. I don't get in trouble. I had put my foot, if you remember those desks that had the little wire baskets on the bottom. Well, I put my foot on that basket and my shoe got caught in it. And he sent me to the office. And I remember the principal saying, what are you doing here? You know, and I said, I sent to the office. He said, for what? And I said, I have my shoe caught in that basket. And he said, come back to class. I mean, I was a good student. And I had that feeling. And it bothered me that the only African-American teacher that I had sent me to the office with something so trivial could just help me get my foot out of that basket. But all the way through high school, I didn't have any African-Americans teachers. And that was important to me. And this is kind of going off the subject. But as an administrator, school administrator, that was important to me that I wanted that ratio population-wise of if we had 6% African-American students, I wanted that ratio of teachers. And I think a lot of it was based on my own personal experiences of once I left the segregated school. And I had good teachers there. I had really good teachers there. One who called me Sally Smart. I would go to the blackboard I never show up again. And I would do the math. And I would whirl around when I finished. And I would always beat everybody. And I would love the way my dress was whirled. And she called me Sally Smart. So I did miss those kind of experiences once we did integrate. But I am thankful for Mrs. Lawrence who did step up and make sure that I caught up, that I was caught up and that I exceeded and that I knew my value and that I could compete and be on the same level as my white counterparts. Well, one of the questions that I want to ask you all, these are such profound kind of inspirational comments that you are making. There was a program on television for a short period of time. I can't remember the name of it. But at the end of the program, and this is not the end of our discussion, but the host would always say, when did you know you were black? And I can tell you that I grew up in a town in West Tennessee, a small town. I lived there until I was six. I didn't grow up there. But I can remember at maybe age three or four walking into a Rexall drug store. I don't know if you've ever heard of those, but that's what the town had. On the town square with the courthouse in the center. You've seen it a thousand times, though this was in Tennessee. And there was a soda jerk in the store. And I had seen him many times. I even knew his name. I can't call it now. But I was maybe, I had to be less than six. So I'm thinking maybe four. But I knew when I walked into the store, I don't know if I truly comprehended that it was because my skin color was different from everybody else's in the town. Or maybe that was the one thing I did know, that we looked differently. But I didn't know how else we might be different. But I knew that I could go in that store and while my mother was waiting for her prescription, I couldn't sit on those stools and order a soda. I knew that. And you know, how kids will run around. Or I think Dr. Lawrence told the story about trying on a stocking in the store. That would not happen to me because somehow I knew. So when did you first know you were black? Terry? I have to think about that. That's a good question. I think for me, the realization was maybe not actually realizing that I was black but realizing that there was still some prejudice. And earlier I mentioned that I was valedictorian of my high school class and then later it was shared with me some of the comments that the other students had made when that was announced in the second semester of our senior year and it was announced prior to graduation that the comment was, oh, we don't want her as our valedictorian. And it was like, oh, okay, I had to think about where that was coming from and the only thing that could come to mind is because I was black. However, as you know, valedictorian is not an elected position or something that you can choose. And it's really not something that I was aiming or shooting for. I was just always shooting for making the best grades as possible that I could not knowing that it would actually lead to having the highest grades. And so I learned that later from my favorite teacher in high school. So I would say that's probably the first realization of knowing that, oh, were there some folks that may not like me because I'm black. Alice Rose? Well, I guess I first learned that as a small child in my neighborhood because as I said, all of my little playmates were Mexican-Americans and they went to the east about two blocks to go to school, Mar-Hill Elementary. And my mother drove me to the west about two or three miles to go to school, the Grant Elementary. So that was a realization, you know, that we were different and going to different schools. My mother, of course, was very protective of me and if, you know, you couldn't drink out of the same water fountains, but she would say, you don't want that water, you know, not that you're black, you can't drink out of it, you know, you don't want to drink out of those public water fountains. I know I had to, when I would ride the bus, I had to, I was to go to the back of the bus that let me know that I was black. Then once I got older, it was going to the theater and I had to go to the back alley and go in the back entrance. Did you ever go to the majestic? At the majestic and sit up in the balcony. All of those things allowed me to know that I was black. I want to share something kind of startling. I was in the majestic some years ago. For taking a picture. And so I was in reversed and I was looking up at the balconies. And so I think that when you say, I was, we had to sit in the balcony. You may want to say the really tall upper balcony. Because I looked and I thought, I saw the mezzanine and then I saw a balcony and I thought, oh, that's where we used to sit. And I would have sat there too, but I wasn't from San Antonio. And we did have a neighborhood theater. My parents been, let me go downtown. But they went because there were great movies, you know, if they wanted to see a good movie. But I leaned back a little further and oh my gosh, I'm sure that there are many people who are listening who know what that feeling is like. But the balcony, the upper balcony for African-Americans in the majestic is way up there. And I understand they're going to have a retouring of that balcony. And they've made it so you can have access, or they're making it so you can have access from the third, from that equal floor of the majestic building. Maybe it's the fifth or the sixth floor, maybe, and you can walk across. And so you can see where that balcony is. But when you say balcony, it's a misnomer. Because that was quite a walk. It was the upper, upper balcony. And I think to be, you know, to be clear, this gives people a better, a truer understanding. I mean, it was really separated. I mean, if you could have the COVID virus and go to the upper balcony and you wouldn't bother anybody down below. It seemed to me to be that much of a separation. But anyway, let's continue. I don't know when I really realized that was black. I mean, to consciously think that, I always knew my place. I guess she was safe, but I just never really thought about it. As the oldest daughter, I would go into town and help my mom with grocery shopping, Christmas shopping, those type things. And I can remember her, you know, kind of, step over here or step over, but never any reason other than that's what you do when you see an adult. Not so much because of color. But in her mind, I guess she was protecting us. She learned that we respect adults, regardless of who they are. If there's an adult coming down the sidewalk, you step to the side and let that adult pass by. I was very active in Girl Scouts after we integrated the schools and going on Girl Scout trips. Oh gosh, my Girl Scout leader was amazing. One of the most influential women in my life. Next to my mom. Her protecting us. She protected me also. I can remember maybe stopping at a restaurant and she was saying, I need to run in here real fast. And that determined whether or not we ate at that restaurant. But it was never blatantly said, I think that you're doing this because you're black. It was out of good manners. I thought to step over here. Sally stepped back from the counter or whatever. I don't know what I consciously thought, I'm being discriminated against. It was just the way life was. The three of you have shared a common identity. That is of being family nurtured. You were all nurtured by your families. I'm guessing that was an umbrella. That really protected you. Or either gave you that extra coat. From that protected you against a harsh environment. That you were safe and cared for within your nurturing family. And that may have been very supportive to you. I can remember going in a five and dime store. And do you remember and so we're talking 60 years ago. And even then there were these little name bracelets. They put it on a machine and write your name on it. Oh, I wanted one of those. And you know, my parents were teachers and it didn't matter. We all made about the same amount of money. No matter what you did in the community, everybody felt equal. And so when there was extra money, then I, you know, my mother must have felt like, oh yeah, we can do this today. Day came and I said, can I get one of those bracelets? And she said, yes. And I was just thrilled looking to get this bracelet. They put mine on the machine. Now you got to understand, I have a long name and I was wondering if it would all fit on there. But here they put my name, put my bracelet on the machine, all ready to try to write out Aranetta. And a white mother and her child came and she wanted one. And they took my bracelet off. And my mother said, oh, that's the end of that. And you know, to her, it was a principle. To me, I don't get a bracelet. She'll never get me right now. But I remember feeling that loss and how unfair that was. I don't know if those kind of experiences are a part of how I am today or something that I learned from that. But I just remember thinking that's not fair. And you know, your parents have taught you to be fair. Those kind of values. And yet you're out in the community and you see other adults are not practicing those. There are many kinds of things that I think would be interesting. Do you think that your high schools prepared you for college, particularly integrated or segregated? Were you well prepared for college? Alice Rose, you want to start? Everybody wants you to start. Okay. Well, I think that, I think my high school did prepare me for college. And of course I chose to go to a UHBCU. You named fifth university. In Nashville, Tennessee. And I do think I was prepared. I wasn't as prepared as some of the other students that came there, however, from the northern schools. But they did the best they could. So I felt comfortable there. And you graduated. And you got a job teaching. Right. And I finished in four years. Yes. Yes. Which is not always true now. No, not now. It's taking much longer with many kids. It was a wonderful experience. Terry? So thinking back on it, I would say I wish my high school had done more to help prepare me and maybe others for college. I feel that in some classes, and I took honors classes, but they still were a little lenient in the grading. However, when you go to college, there's no leniency there. So you're thinking, oh yeah, okay. I did well here. I know this pretty well. But then when you get to college, it's like, oh, what I thought I knew well, maybe I didn't know all that well. Now, it also probably depends on which college you go to. I started my college career at UT Austin. Got a scholarship. My initial major was electrical engineering. Because my mom felt, oh, engineering is the thing you, especially for young ladies, there were not many young ladies that majored in engineering. I did quite well in my electrical engineering classes. But it was, and this is where I wished my dad was living. I could have used him in my chemistry class. Because my chemistry class, my first semester was in an auditorium of 300 other students. So all you had was a midterm and a final that made up your grade. And if you could catch the professor or his assistant during some office hours, good luck. I had physics with 90 students. And a professor who was foreign, and he had a heavy accent. So every other word you were leaning to the next student saying, what did he say? And I had calculus with about 120 of the students as well. I did okay in calculus. But in my electrical engineering classes, no problem there. So I'm like, okay, I wish I could have just taken those classes and not the others. So that was different, a different experience there. So I wish my high school would have done a little more to say, well, this is how it's going to be, depending on what school you're going to, and kind of take it from there. Environment for learning. How about yours? I always have a story. My experience in high school, keeping in mind, it was a small rural community. So it didn't offer all the classes that a larger city would offer. But my experience there was, my senior year, I was called in to talk to the counselor. It was my first graduation and that's the first time I'm talking to the counselor. So in that sense, no. I knew I wanted to be a teacher, so I went in to talk to the counselor and I told him I wanted to go to college and I wanted to be a teacher. And he said, your parents can't afford to send you to school. They have all those children. And I said, then what am I supposed to do? And he said, well, I guess you could get a job. And Goli, are there any jobs? And I thought, a job doing what? And so I went home and I talked to my parents and I said, the counselor talked to me today and said that we can afford to go to college, so I should get a job. And daddy said, get a job doing what? And I said, at lobby here at a restaurant. And he said, no. Nothing wrong with being a waitress, but not you. You will pour hot coffee on somebody when they make you mad. He said, you are smart. He said, I don't know what to tell you. But baby girl, you figure it out and your mom and I will support you. So I read in a newspaper a few days later how things get put in your path about a nursing school in a neighboring town, 26 miles away. And it took one year to finish LVN nursing school. So I went back to my parents and said, I'm going to be a nurse. Never wanted to be a nurse. And so my dad, as I said, mathematical genius, that he was, we sat down at the table and we figured out how much it would cost for me to go to school for a year, live at home, commute. I mean, we figured in everything, tires, gasoline, my meals, everything. And so then the next day, my mom and I got up, oh my gosh, at the crack of dawn to drive 26 miles so we could be there on time to go talk to this nursing school about me getting in there. And so I did go to nursing school for a year and I thought, I will go to nursing school for a year. That's a good profession and I will work my way through college. So I was not a traditional college student. I worked my way through college. In the meantime, I was a nurse when I got married. Worked at Metropolitan Hospital here in town when we came here as newlyweds. But it took me a long time to finish school but I kept my eye on the ball. I was determined to become a teacher. That's what I wanted and that's what I was going to do. And in the meantime, I had a baby but I never stopped. I kept going and I kept going until I reached that goal of becoming a teacher. And that was what I wanted to do. And then Common Sense said, if you want more money for your retirement you need to become an administrator. So after I talked for many years and I looked at that multiplier at the table I thought, okay you need to get an administration so that you can get more pay when you retire. And so my passion was teaching. Did my high school prepare me for that? I would say yes. But I loved being an administrator but my passion was teaching students in the classroom that steal my passion. So like I said, I was not a traditional student. I graduated summa cum laude as an adult with a family from University of Houston, Victoria. And that's also where I got my master's. I was driven. I was paying my own bills, paying for my tuition. So I knew I had to do well. But so, yes I'd say they did prepare me. The counselor didn't prepare me for college though. But academics, I had the academic background but not the counselor who never spoke the word scholarship. You know, things you know later. First generation, you don't know that. And nobody told you. And nobody told me. There were no black teachers, no black professionals in Goliath. When blacks got their college degrees, they didn't come back then. They stayed where they were. So there was no one in the community that I could say I'll go talk to them about this. You listen to the counselor, you know. So I didn't go to college and have that experience. But do I begrudge it? There's no need to worry about it. I got where I wanted to be. It just took a little longer. Thank you. Yes, you always have a story. I wanted to say if I was prepared for colleges, the teachers prepared me. And I would say definitely yes. Because when I got to FISC, I was able to make the dean's list the first year. So that's evidence of being prepared, I do believe. I'm thinking you're having me to think back a long, many, many years ago. Yes. And so, and I remember back, yes. That's valuable and important to know. And I think it's worth going back and, you know, thinking about it. And going back and adding to it because it tells us something about the experience from which you came. And that's a lot of what we're trying to impart to whoever listens to this. I could not believe it. I was talking to my husband about this project and how excited I was about listening and learning and sharing. And so later on that day, we were talking about him, things that you got from other schools. And I thought I'd heard everything. And he was a tennis player in high school. He said they got tennis balls from the white schools. I said, did they bounce? And he said, some of them, and some of them we'd have to throw away and, you know, maybe get our own. But what could they have been thinking about sharing tennis balls? Did you all feel any embarrassment or lack of importance because you had to share books or anything like that? I guess I really didn't think about that, but I do remember the books, especially in elementary and middle school, having other names in them before we got them. And you didn't know those names? I didn't know those names. But it was so often, I just assumed, okay, well, that's the way it is, until a few times, oh, this is a brand new book. That's no name, you know, in this book. So then, you know, you realize, and then you start thinking, hmm, I wonder where did those other books come from? Or, you know, it's something changing, and now, you know, we're getting new books. But yeah, doing that period, I just felt that, oh, that's the way it is. Thank you. We were, obviously, I've been very involved in the arts in San Antonio, and I believe so much in arts and education. And I remember once I was giving a speech and a professional curator, whom I had a lot of respect for, said to me that he thought every child should be exposed to art, particularly children of color, because he said art is the mirror that allows the troubled child to find the beauty within. I'm wondering, did you all have exposure to art and music that was influential to you when you were in even high school or before? I don't recall having art and music in high school. I came on a lot later, but I did. I took piano lessons, that type thing, and in Girl Scouts, I was exposed to so much. That's when my love of museums, of traveling to different cities and going to museums, going to concerts, having those experiences. So I would say yes, I was exposed to art and music, not so much to school, but through Girl Scouts, which was a huge part of my life. I would say I was exposed more to music, also having taken piano lessons since I was six years old. As a matter of fact, I still have the same piano in my house that I grew up with, and then having other family members that were musically inclined by having bands or playing the trumpet or singing in the choir. I don't have the gift of singing, so you don't want to hear me sing, but playing the piano and other instruments. And I also remember going to, my mom taking me to museums that was available for us to attend, and I kind of put that caveat on there was available. I remember growing up going to Playland Park and Kitty Land Park. Could you go anytime you wanted? Well... Could you go anytime you wanted? So earlier we were talking about how our family members kind of protected us, so I didn't realize until much later that there were certain days that we could go to Playland Park. And when you say we could? African-Americans could go to Playland Park or even Kitty Park, and so I started thinking back, hmm, were those the days that my mom would take me? I was just happy to go at the time. But then it made me think back, oh, I wonder if those were the days that we actually went just on the days that we were allowed to go? I think that in thinking back, it's interesting to think of the things that to a large number of African-Americans excelled in. And then you all have to think about how much you were exposed to it. I was going to be a dancer, and I couldn't go to, I used to see a ballet in Nashville. I was blessed that there were three black colleges there. And that's another whole reason why I think I am whatever I am is because of the exposure of that cultural experience and the opportunity to learn dancing and drama and different things like that. But if you realize, and the reason it's important to document your experience in it, is to realize that if you weren't getting that exposure, how could you excel in some of those kinds of activities, no matter what talent you might have? Alice Rose? I was just going to say about in high school, we didn't have it except we did have band. And of course we had plays represented in high school, so we did have drama and teaching there. But you had it outside of the high school. We had a dance instructor outside of the high school who wasn't in the school system. And I can't remember her name now who taught the students in San Antonio dance and put on performances. Of course we had exposure. We could go into the art museums and those kinds of things. But it wasn't a part of the school situation when I was coming along. And so in any way, do you advocate for the things that you were not exposed to in your high school years? Did not having things that you really find out later that you could have been exposed to maybe other white schools were exposing their children to? Did any of that kind of comparisons ever come up? I would say yes for me. As an administrator working in a low socioeconomic area, I made sure my students had those type things. When I got to my campus at Meadow Village, we didn't have any school clubs. When I left, we had 17 school clubs that my students could participate in. We were at the other campuses, they had PTAs to purchase materials. I went to everybody. I went to VFW. I went to churches. Can you sponsor my club? And I worried God a lot. Ask him to send me somebody to teach chess or to teach whatever I didn't know how to teach. But I think that that was a reason why I wanted that so much for my students to make sure that they had those opportunities that they couldn't afford to go and do because some of these things cost money, because big money, with my own children making sure that they have those opportunities. And as they would say, Mama says we have to have culture when we would go to the symphony and drive miles from Puerto Rico or wherever we were living to make sure that they had those exposures. And so I think it was because a lack of for myself. Speaking of the symphony, as we were talking, I recalled in Meadow School we did have trips to field trips to the San Antonio Symphony where we sat in the balcony. And those were, of course, at the time, as young students, you don't really appreciate it until much later in life. At the time, you pretty much saw it. Oh, it's a field trip. We're getting out of school. Of course. We're getting out of school. And then that was at Emerson Meadow School, predominantly black, exposing us to the arts or music and other related activity. I'm going to say, but that was in an integrated situation. That was up to you? Yes, yes. Yes, it was. Well, I can remember they would take us when I was in high school and we were excited about who you're going to sit with on the bus, you know, and we're getting out of school and, oh, wow, this is a beautiful theater. There were so many other first-time things to distract you that you went to seldom. It was hard to incorporate everything into the goal that they were trying to present to you. But I remember, I think, kind of the lowest point that we had is for one period, one time, I was in chemistry class, so that was probably a good thing for me, that they piped in music over the public address system. And I thought, this experience could be better. And yet, you didn't understand that they'd just give you a little bit thinking that I don't know what they thought it would accomplish. But it was certainly a little demeaning because it said, you know, we're not even taking you on the bus to the beautiful theater. We're sending you some music that you can listen to. And since I was a dancer, sometimes I would always imagine myself dancing to the Blue Dan Yip or something like that, and it would be beneficial for me to listen from that point of view. But I just think of all the ways they reminded us that we were second class. And I did not have an integrated experience until I went to Tennessee State University in Nashville for two years, and then I transferred and graduated from the University of Iowa. Talk about, you know, Mission Mesh. It was totally a different cultural experience. Well, I'm glad I had them both because, you know, one of the things is, do you still keep in touch with your friends from high school? Do you? No. Do you? Do you? On occasion, there are some. More so, I keep in touch with friends from elementary and middle school. If you could go back and organize your high school. What might you add to compliment the experience for the students that didn't exist for you when you were there? And I apologize because this wasn't one of the questions that was kind of listed for you to be thinking about. But, you know, were there, were you in the in-group and therefore, you know, high school was a breeze? I have a feeling all of you were. And so you were, you know, some students might have very different needs and experiences that were not met that you all perhaps did not have. But is there anything that you would have hoped would have been an experience that you would have had? Or how many of you took home economics? I did. I did not. And that's when it was changing. Would you still teach home economics, or would you throw in something else that they could be exposed to? I think that's important. I would still have it, but I would also give some other options as well. Alice Rose? I think so too. I think it was good to have. It taught you etiquette. Yes. You know, so I would think so. Sorry, they took it out. A friend of mine was saying that at one of their son's friends would always come over for dinner and they told him, well, you have to work. And so he helps at the table, and he didn't know how to set the table. And I realized, you know, my kids did just great, but they didn't know how to set the table either because it was an experience that I gave them or taught them. But when we think about, I think home economics taught me a lot and that it was an experience that I've used, but then home making is different for families now. For us, it was central because women had not advanced to a point where if the house was messy, nobody's going to say, your husband should have cleaned this house up if they dropped by to visit. I mean, it was all going to be reflected on the woman of the house. And I don't know when that changed. Do you think that had changed for you, Terry? I think it did. It was, I didn't take it in high school, but it was available. It was an option. Personally, today, I feel it should be mandatory for everyone. You know, I, I remember, I remember my son his first year. So his first year at Preview, of course, all the freshmen stayed on campus and in the regular dorms. His second year, he was still on campus, but upgraded. They had a kitchenette and things like that. He had his, his three other friends from high school. They went to Preview as well. And he was learning. He was trying to, I chuckle, he was trying to cook Helmburger Helper. So he calls and asks, Mom, how do you cook Helmburger Helper? How do you cook Helmburger Helper, son? Do you have the box? Yeah. I said, turn it around to the back. Okay. Read it and follow those instructions. You know, he just knew, you know, food at the house just kind of popped up. You know, I was in the kitchen cooking it. And so, of course, chores, if you will, you know, I'm saying, make your bed. You know, clean your room. Do, you know, the regular things that needed to be done. But some things, and I feel that, you know, things need to progress with time because one thing he didn't learn was how to address the envelope and where to put the stamp. And how to, yeah, how to address it. Mr. and Mrs., my kids still don't know. Or how to write a check in these days, you know, because no one uses that. Or use a debit card. Right, you know, or if you lose a button on a shirt, how to sew that button? Do you sew that button back on? I'm just going to go buy a new shirt. It's just a button. Okay. So those, maybe it's not home economics, maybe it's home making, maybe it's a combination of home economics and home making, but I think that should be mandatory. It's interesting. And again, it was a different time and it was, but there's certain needs that a family still has that sometimes it was valuable and important to be able to go back and participate in that and kind of see. If you, can you think of the most valuable lesson you learned in high school that informs how you even operate today? I was trying to think you know, they say everything I need to know I learned in grandma school, elementary school. And there are certain principles that I think I learned and I don't know if we learn more about what our parents and teachers taught us or by how they were themselves. But I remember that, you know, my mother was the kind of person who made sure that she treated everyone the same and she she was, and she made no difference. And I don't even know if she had, the only thing I know she did differently one time, she was, she was at her house and she said she was going to stagger the guest because when the, she was going to have the church group come at one particular time because her father had been a minister you know, you didn't even play cards in the house and then later on they would have the bartender for with drinks and so she didn't want them to get mixed up and how they, how they were. But I just wonder if there are any lessons that you learned be true to yourself be you know, be fair with others even from having been in a segregated high school. Anything that you want to share, just let me know. Well I would just say do unto others as you would have others do unto you. That was a lesson that was always taught to me and I chose to pass on to my children and then to be the best that you can be and don't settle for mediocrity to do your best all times. That's a beautiful saying and your best is all you can be. You can't be somebody else's best but to be your best and I think that was, I was listening to you talk about your father Sally you said at one time that he was illiterate. However everything else you said made me paint a picture of me of a man who is very wise very industrious and anyway what was your answer? For me it was make your own choices and that goes back to I had a teacher love that teacher language arts. I love to read. I love just love that teacher the way he taught for some of my girlfriends didn't like him because they didn't want to do work. Anyway they wrote I said everybody write on your paper I hate you and I thought I don't hate him but I wrote it on my paper to turn in and then I tried to erase it before I turned it in but you could still see it and many many many years later I went to interview with him for a job in a different city and when I got into the interview I told him I said before we begin this interview I have to tell you this I said you may not even remember he said I remember and over all the years and I still do I taught my children I taught my students be true to yourself follow your and I would share that story with them and I said there was no reason for me to write that to hurt somebody and I didn't even believe that so from that day forward you can't talk me into doing something that I don't believe is right I mean that's what I taught my children I taught my students stand up for what you believe don't go along with the crowd if you don't agree with it and so that's my most valuable lesson that I but I'm thankful that I did have an opportunity to apologize to him and to work for him with him and and I still share that story with with people stand up for what you believe in so I guess I would say what I learned is it's okay if everyone doesn't like you as long as you like yourself is what's important over the years through middle school or high school you know you always have some folks that you consider or would or thought they were your best friend and then later you find out you know oh you know their attitude change towards you or something change and you're wondering well why what did you know what did I do and you realize you really didn't do anything but you know maybe it was just um and my grandmother used to always say now everybody's not gonna like you and I'm like oh grandma you know I'm likeable you know everybody's my friend and she and my grandmother was from Lake Charles, Louisiana so you know she said you know just know that everybody's not gonna be your friend and you know a lot of times when you're a child and you know your parents or your grandparents tell you something you're thinking oh they don't know they're old you know but then as you get older you realize oh that's what they meant that's what they were talking about so I've learned as long as I like myself and that creates that confidence in knowing that you feel you can do anything and that's to me that's what's important well I have one more question to ask everybody if years from now there are some contemporaries of the future that are watching this tape what would you want to say to them about your high school years and instructions you might give them while you're thinking for example I think I would I wish I had read more earlier read more African American history earlier I had a great teacher who taught me about the middle passage in history class I wasn't in the book for sure but it should have spurred me to read more but I just you know I wanted to get to dancing class you know all these kinds of things and I did what I needed to do to make an A because I thought that was what I needed to do but I can't say that I always made them but I came pretty good but I think that reading for learning for yourself not for the assignment you know learn a love of reading and in the process you run across a lot of wisdom and just as you were saying what you were saying I think of my dear friend my Angelo who's was wiser than many people that I know she said never be never make somebody else a priority when for them you are only an option and that's kind of wisdom some of you some of our peers are grown old and wise but some of us take a little longer and I'm getting so much wisdom now but you know there's nobody really wants to listen and I wish that I had captured more interest in learning for life's sake to shape me when I was younger so let me hear from you we'll start with you Sally or should I end with you in your story it's fine for me it's keep your on the ball remember your purpose for being there in school too often we get sidetracked keep your on the ball and remember your purpose that's your job when you're in school great I would say that it's not just the academics but to get involved in the extracurricular activities to be a part of the entire picture and I think I'm going to piggyback a little bit of your brief intro I would say not to limit yourself or knowledge to what's being taught in school and don't be afraid to learn outside of that and then also to focus on as a career what you think you might like doing because then it never becomes work or a job if you like it earlier I mentioned that I was an electrical engineering major but during my intro you didn't hear me say I'm an engineer you heard me say that I'm an economic development because it gave me a career where I can point to things or point to projects and say I had something to do with that or involve myself in many organizations and sometimes I say okay I'm an organization freak because if you look at my resume it's like okay you're in this organization that organization you're an officer here officer there but I would say that I really got that from my mom my mother here in San Antonio Morrow Jean Womack she was in many many organizations and just growing up I saw that from the NAACP to a lot of rights organizations and I saw the work that those organizations were doing in helping the community so I think kind of subliminally my college career took me towards that path of me actually getting a political science degree in public administration and working in that field to help better the community and working with organizations that help better the community so in each of those career paths I always wanted to go to work because it didn't seem like work I mean to this day it doesn't seem like work I still get excited about what I'm doing so that would be my advice to others this has been unbelievable I think that each of you is very different in your experience in your preparation in your attitudes but there's such a common thread of be your best in camaraderie and strong parenting and those kinds of values that I think give merit to the all of the experiences that each of you brought to the table I'm just really grateful and honored to have had the opportunity to participate in this I've learned I've listened and I've shared and I think that if there's one thing to say to other young people is learn listen and share so I would say to the Van Cortland foundation that this has been an incredible experience I'm very grateful to my friend of 57 years Charles Andrews who brought this project to me and allowed me to participate in it and through his participation with the Van Cortland foundation and others who he will probably have listed on this video this has given us an opportunity to reflect to think about what this experience has given us and what all kinds of experiences can give you and you never know what the opportunity that you are participating in what how it will be reflected in your future and I've always heard that your history is there because it gives you something to share and each of you have shared openly and easily and comfortably and wisely and it's I think young people will be they'll go really they did that why did they do that why did they take it why did they have to go to the back of the bus you know when you grow up in a community and it's the way of life then it happens but hopefully they will see so many changes that have been made and that they will see their opportunity to make even more changes but again it's been an opportunity I appreciate all of you for sharing and I'm glad that you participated in this and this trip with me back in time thank you so much thank you