 Hello, everyone. Welcome to the deep adaptation Q&A for 2021. This is our first. I'm Professor Jim Bendell and I'll be hosting a different guest every month until the end of the year, where we're going to be exploring this issue of how do people in their professional lives engage with collapse anticipation or deep adaptation, build bridges, make connections and actually perhaps slightly realign their work with that awareness and have interesting and sometimes difficult conversations with colleagues in that process. So today, I'm really delighted to get started with our guest today. Asiya Oduglekolev is a technical officer at the WHO and I'll leave it for her. That's the World Health Organization. I'll leave it with her to say what she works on. But as she is also a member of the holding group of the deep adaptation forum who provide the general oversight governance and strategy for that forum. So I'm very pleased that Asiya joins us today. Hello, Asiya. Can you hear me well? Hi, Jim. Yes, I can. And it's great to be with you and everyone here. Thank you. And I hope there's not too much background noise. I'm not in my normal off this venue. I've had to find a hotel because of some internet problems. But we'll see how it goes. So I think first off, Asiya, could you just explain to us what you do at the WHO, just some of some of the basics in terms of your role and the programme of work that you do there? So we have that context. Okay. Okay, Jim, thanks. So I've been working in WHO on and off since 2001. I first joined WHO in 2001 to work on what was then called social mobilisation and how some of the big elimination and eradication programmes such as polio and lymphatic filariasis could encourage populations and local communities to take up the public health interventions which were around vaccines, ivermectin and tablets that could sort of lower the viral load of some of the diseases that were causing debilitating disabilities in some of the poorest nations in the world. And so I then moved into emergency response. And again, my focus was on community mobilisation and how we could work better with communities during emergencies. And right now I'm focused on how I can take all of those experiences and look at how we can build systems, health systems and services that are orientated around people, people-centred that can improve the quality and access to health services. Right. And that can sound, unless you work in this field, that can sound a little bit abstract, some of that like the community engagement. Could you give us an example of what it means in practice today, this sort of what you're actually working on in ways that we might relate to? I mean, a lot of different cultural and country context. Yeah, sure. I mean, we all have everyday experiences of using our health care services. And so usually we go to our family health doctor when we're sick or when we have illness. And so when the relationship between our general practitioner or when you're going to hospital, how we're treated in hospital, all of that, that experience is the result of how that health system or service has been set up. So the way that positions are trained, the way that the teams, the nurses and doctors who are providing care at the hospital, when we are, when we have epidemics, for example, and we have public health officers who come into our homes and sort of ask us about symptoms and how we're feeling. Those are surveillance officers who have been trained to go and identify what the source of that infection is and then make recommendations as to what kind of interventions can prevent sort of that disease from spreading within the community. So I think it's more broadly, it's at every point at which we as an individual interface with some aspect of the health service, whether it's consultation at the local health facility or clinic, whether it's a public health officer coming in to visit us. I'm looking at what that experience looks like and how we can enable that experience to shift from a telling kind of, we know best kind of approach to more partnership orientated. So how can we work with communities? An example in the way that WHO works, for example, is that when I was working with the emergency program during the Ebola response in 2014, what we realised was that in the three countries that were affected then in Sierra Leone, Guinea and Liberia, there were real tensions between local communities and the people that were going in to do surveillance sort of contact tracing. I mean, basically in what's happening now in COVID response, we have people who in the early days were following symptoms and trying to figure out how that disease was spreading and then what people could do to prevent that infection from continuing to spread. So for Ebola, we knew how it was spread. And yet it's a disease that causes tremendous amount of fear. And so how the people who are providing that support to local communities engage with them, how they're able to build relationships, how they're able to able to allay concerns, how they're able to understand what people are experiencing and their lived experience of trying to manage that is an area that it's not really taught to health professionals. They're taught in disease spread and what to do rather than how to build a kind of relationships that can lead to looking at, well, what's the problem and how can we develop a solution together? And so I was part of a team that was helping to design and deliver training for staff that were dealing directly with people so that they could learn how to build a different way of engaging with them. Yeah, I was interested when you said trying to create a different approach or even philosophy around partnership rather than perhaps the old old idea of extension or outreach. So knowing that expertise is in one place and you just need to better get it known about by a community actually switching because to a more partnership approach because I think what I'm remembering is many times I've met people who say they're not interested in thinking about their health more generally or what they can do. It's like because there is a medical profession, because there are pills and injections and experts in white coats, people kind of just think they'll deal with it and for some people there's lack of agency, there's lack of attention to their own well-being and how what they can do in the community themselves. So for example, yeah, with COVID here in Indonesia, but I've also heard about it in the UK, so many people are at work who are sick. Now they might have flu, they might have just a little cold, but they might have something worse. And they're just coming to work in various different public facing roles. And I think so much of what's being done, you know, masks and all these other things is like, well, yeah, there's some evidence, but there's a lot of evidence that, you know, if you've got symptoms and you're in enclosed space, then it may not be COVID, it might be something else. But still, it seems that there's you can look at that. And it's like, well, if people if people thought it through, it'd be like, well, how can we help people stay at home when they've got a fever? You know, that kind of empowerment of people. And it's not just for COVID, it's just for health in general, I guess. But so I've been having a few awkward conversations recently with people who are the management. It's like, you've got sick staff, do you want to let them go home? But is it a little bit more like that holistic way of thinking? How do you help people understand risk factors and take action themselves? Yeah, I mean, you've sort of read some interesting sort of questions around who is responsible for the health and well-being. And I think that we all have a responsibility. Some have more responsibility than others, for example, because of their job, their profession, their role, the institution, the mandate that they have. And so I think health crosses everything. Health is the business of a person, of a business, a community, a hospital. And I think what's important is what kind of conversations are taking place around what's happening, and what we can all do to be able to contribute to my health than your health and our community's health. And I think what COVID has done, I think it has really highlighted the fact that health is beyond sort of the hospital. I think it was Senator Chris that said, cure is for hospital, but health is for the home. You know, that health is not only about what we do when we are ill, but it's also about the kind of food that we eat. You know, it's about the nutrition, it's about the quality of food, it's about the quality of our environment, it's about the education of the way that our children are educated. And it's about everything related to how health can be a resource for us to live the kind of lives that we would like to live. And so it's it's social, it's political, it's economic. But there are some very difficult in the social conversations that need to have around about what, how can different people in different entities address the health needs of a changing population? I think particularly because we've got the biggest issue is noncommunicable diseases, for example, we know that mental health is a huge problem. We know that depression is rising, anxiety is rising. We know that that people have multiple health problems, for example, my sister is a midwife. And, and when she's working on the delivery ward, it's not about helping women give birth, it's helping women give birth who may have diabetes or cardiovascular disease. And so for her to be able to provide the kind of care, it's it's it's it's become more complex. And particularly when you also look at the conditions in which health workers work, you know, for example, this chronic staff shortages, there are the amount of work that health health workers are being asked to do is is huge, it's crippling. We know that there's, you know, worldwide there's a shortage of 18 million health workers in the UK alone, I think there are one in 12 vacant positions at the hospital and community level. And so when we don't have enough staff to provide the care that we need, we don't treat the staff that we have very well, so that they're able to work in the conditions that that enable them to provide the right kind of care. And we're not making the right investments to shift and transform the way that we've set up our health systems, so that so that the money goes to where it needs to be, which is primary health care, and looking at the community health, and how resources need to be shifted to the places where we can make the biggest difference, which is at the local level. So I think there are plenty of difficult conversations that need to happen in multiple places around what health means, and how can we create and build healthier communities and workplaces. Would you say you are unusual, either in the WHO, or the health sector generally, for recognising why I think you've talked about there, it sounds like a bit of a crisis in communicable and non communicable disease, and the capabilities and institutions, the staff at the moment to help address those, would you say, would you say it's a crisis? Is that a good characterisation? And are people aware of it in your sector? I think people are aware. I mean, if you look at the reports that come out of WHO, if you look at the reports that national governments are making around the state of of health care, people recognise what the problems are, and we're very good at describing problems. I mean, that's what we've been trending. We've been trying to identify problems. I think where the difficulty is, is in the solutions. And it's the solutions which challenges because no one sector, or no one discipline has the answer. It takes a collective response. So for example, when we look at the area that I work in, which is community building, I am unusual in the sense that I really look at community building and community engagement as a mechanism that can help us really look at the connection of what people do and who people are in the institutions in which they work in. And so for example, if you look at the definition of community engagement from WHO, it talks about community engagement as a process of developing and building relationships. But what do we mean by relationships? When we look at the evidence around community engagement and the literature, it doesn't say anything about the quality of relationships. How do we measure the relational dynamics between people? How do we look at sort of, how do we see lived experience as being evidence? Evidence is not just numbers and measuring disease. It's about what are the experiences that people experience? And how does that impact their own sort of health and well-being? So for example, one of the things that I argue is that people may see community engagement as being a bit woo-woo and wishy-washy. It's about tree hugging and people holding hands and singing kumbaya around a tree. But if we look at the science that's emerging, we know that if we want to understand how people connect and engage, we really have to look at the connection between our brains and our central nervous system, our relationships and our minds. And so there are people and groups who are really looking at approaches that combine knowledge. And I think we have to draw upon the power that diversity in knowledge has to enable us to understand how we as human beings relate to each other and can collaborate better. Thank you for that good summary. It's really good to hear that that kind of insight is within, it's not just yourself, it's also recognising the role that you have within the UN World Health Organisation and having those conversations. So you're also on the holding group of the deep adaptation forum and many of the people who are joining us today do so because they are working in that field in some way. A field which anticipates increasing societal disruption and even collapse and perhaps not so far away into the future. And so I'm really interested now that we've got a sense of the work you do, what interests you about deep adaptation but also where the connections can be made between this focus on communities and its relationship between communities and the health sector. And this idea of more disruption to our way of life everywhere. So it's a huge topic. I know it's one that you're exploring at the moment, but any initial thoughts? When I was first introduced to deep adaptation and the work of people in the deep adaptation movement, I was first taken away by the enormous amount of activism that's there. An enormous amount of commitment and drive and the desire to reimagine a different kind of future because the way that we are treating our planet at the moment could lead us to what some people will consider the six extinction. And that something has to change. I think where I began to draw some parallels was that deep adaptation is it's inner work. You know, it's the belief systems that we have about who we are, our place in the world, how we work together determines what we create. And I think the biggest realisation that I had was that, you know, if we want to change the future, we actually have to start changing ourselves. And that means looking at the connection between our inner self and the outer expression of who we are, which is comes out in sort of the behaviours and how we treat each other and what we think is important. Recognising that, I mean, society has changed. I mean, I remember when I was growing up, that my sense of community was very different to a sense of community now. I'm certainly not living in the same location as my parents were living, for example. I feel much more isolated. And there's that sense that there isn't a community or a group of people around me that can provide the kind of social networks and support that I need to be able to deal with the challenges that I face. And so what's that sort of social support system that's in place? What does it look like? And we can't take it for granted. I mean, I think we have to begin to recreate it. We there was a survey that was done that looked at that asked people the question, where is the biggest source of resilience? And they said, my relationships, what's your biggest source of anxiety? My relationships. And so there's something that we have to look at as to what is it about our relationships that we need to address that can help us begin to maybe renegotiate what kind of make up of our social networks need to be in place to help us raise our children, educate our children, evolve as people, contribute to society. And it's that relational piece that I think and that adaptation that's required to shift and do the inner work that really struck me. Really interesting to hear. So just for context. So you're now in Geneva, and that the way you're living there at the moment, there's not the kind of community engagement and support relationships of the quality of your parents. Where were your parents? My father died. My mother lives in Somaliland. I have brothers and sisters in the UK. So we're spread over. I see. So that's really interesting that you yeah, you've you've noticed the because yeah, for the first two years of the deep adaptation forum, it's been very much focused on what people are calling the inner work and the ways that we show up, open hearted, open minded, curious, creative, like, we're in an unprecedented situation, the emotions are high. It's all quite scary. We can't apply our own models. And we also I think probably generally have a feeling that if we try and get a quick fix, it's it's kind of like running away from the problem rather than staying present to its difficult, how difficult it is. So yeah, because of that, the focus has been on modalities for how to how to be in dialogue in in pairs or in groups. Now, some people think wow, that's a little bit like blah, blah, can you not you know, there's there's a world that's crashing around us, the sixth maths extinction, as you say, as well as rising poverty and starvation and all sorts. And it's an interesting one, because I also think that the quality of ideas, and the depths of commitment people have to those ideas that come out of these alternative ways of relating and dialoguing. Yeah, is is is something that would not have happened if we just had a quick, quick meeting, like, where's the where's the quick thing that we can do that we all feel confident about, throw some money at it. So, so yeah, for the first two years, very much so the inner work. But I also, as you said right at the start, there's a real strong activist vibe in the, in the deep adaptation movement. And that happens both with the volunteers in the forum, and people starting all kinds of initiatives locally. But also a lot of people are very committed to climate activism as well, you know, the more standard trying to cut carbon or draw down carbon and the deep adaptation stuff is just a compliment for that for them. So I'm definitely been very inspired by all the people who've got involved. You wanted to come back on something I say to see you. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I just wanted I just saw a comment in from Andrew saying that the deaf added values on the inner work. And I really think that we have to take inner work into our public sector organisations. And I think the by public sector organisations, I mean, our health systems, our education systems, our judiciary systems, our agriculture systems. And, and the reason I say this is because, I mean, somebody once said that, you know, our first relational schools was was is our family. And and in that first experience of family and community actually sets up the neural architecture and the algorithms for how we navigate our life and how we navigate our relationships with my adults. And so I think we have to recognise that if our lived experiences of being in family and in community are changing as children, then that will change that will impact how we as adults also navigate our relationships with my adults. So for example, we know that one of the key issues that we need to address is trauma and impact of trauma of on on on children and trauma is not an accident that happened. It can be parental neglect, it can be bullying at school, it can be a whole range of things. But we know that our experiences as children set us up to how we're going to become ill, or in later life. And the moment we we have medicalised our responses to people who have addiction problems, for example, or people who have difficulties in in in dealing with life because of that early, early, early childhood trauma. I mean, there's just so much information out there. And the work of Gabor Mate, for example, who's a Canadian physician is is is someone whose work that I find fascinating because he makes the argument that we really have to look at addiction and some of the behaviours that people have in coping with life as as a relief of suffering. And so our health responses has to change from penalising them to looking at how a different kind of response can can help them deal with the suffering that they're faced in in early life. I mean, we know that that that childhood trauma can can has a 700% increase in, for example, people becoming alcoholics, it increases people's suicide attempts. And so I think there are areas around relationships that I think we can focus on. And I think the organisation, the organisational cultures and bringing health and well being into our public sector organisations is is is is a way to address this. If we don't address it, then we will continue to have organisations that don't know how to partner, because the very people in them don't know what it is that is driving their values and their behaviours. Physicians heal thyself. Absolutely. It's yeah, I absolutely I am. It makes such a difference the way people are with you. If if you've got some ill health, I mean, whether people actually care about who you are and and don't sort of have this sort of starting assumption that any of the deepest stuff that might be going on is just somehow shameful, but actually is hidden treasure. Like, yeah, it might be psychosomatic. Let's delve into that. And let's explore your healing and mine together. I don't I don't get that vibe from my GPs of the past. And yeah, and it's very much turning to alternative communities like the mankind project men's group, all sorts that have really helped me explore what may have been going on deeply in me that has created addictive behaviours like worker holism, being my my favourite drug of choice, which once it was always recovering. Yeah, was it never never recovered? So we're gonna see we're going to go to some questions now. And we're going to have a question from Tamsen and then a question from Andrew. How do you see deep adaptation alongside clinical health work? Does it fit in there? I mean, how do how are you then tackling it? Thank you. Your role at W.A. Thank you. That's a really good question, Tamsen. And I think there'll be the I sometimes think I'm crazy doing this work and staying inside WHO. But how I've approached it is that you can tell people information until it comes out of their ears. People have to experience it. They actually have to go through an experience of what difference what you're talking about means. And so, for, for example, I've been drawing upon sort of the work of several interdisciplinary scientists. And so I don't know if you've come across the work of Daniel Siegel and the work that he's been doing in developing the framework called interpersonal neurobiology. And so I think with clinicians and with scientists, you've got to talk their language. And you've got to sort of look at helping them understand and illuminate things that are invisible to them, you know, that they've been taught sort of how to do the clinical work. But it's not only what they know, it is who they are, as they are doing their clinical work. And it's the relationship, which is a healing relationship. And so, for example, there's been a number of studies that have shown that the influenza vaccine is much more effective when you put people in a good mood. So it's not only about the vaccine itself, but it is how people feel as they're receiving the vaccine that makes the vaccine work better or not. And this speaks to the fact that as human beings, we actually produce our own chemicals. We produce hormones and chemicals. And so if we are in relaxed open states, we are flooded with hormones and chemicals that are different to when we are in stress and fearful states. And so this is sort of the mind-body connection. And I think there's clinicians need education. And this is where I think functional medicine is important. But medicine is not sort of, you don't just look at the problem. If you have a knee problem, it's not just the knee. It's the person to which the knee is attached. It's the social family. It's the experience. And so broadening people's understanding of the interconnectedness between how we feel, how we think and the places in which we live in, is going to be really, really important. And I think, as Gem said, physicians heal by self. I think when we care for our physicians, I mean, there are some studies that show that in US and Europe, over 50% are experiencing depression and a sense of failure. So if they don't feel that they are in a position to do what they came into the profession to do, then there's a problem in how they then deliver care to people. Thanks, Josiah. Andrew, over to you. And then afterwards, Faye. Hello, everybody. Hello, Isaiah. First thing which I'll take offline is that we should obviously meet because I'm working new in engineering. And I focus on fragile states and things like that. So I've given you my email in chat. I'm interested from the perspective of practitioners, mind state, as you know, in a new environment. And so our practitioners work on sustainability and saving the planet, et cetera. And climate science. And so I'm keeping close track on both my own mental state on that and watching everybody else that we have a bit of an underground network starting in terms of not quite deaf, UN underground, but basically the people who get it and no longer, so to speak, unblinkingly read the messages, et cetera. Now, my question is, what's it like in WHO? Is there much of a psych there, how people adapting to talking about it or not talking about it at management at a peer level? And any tools or tactics being being employed? Very interested in following up on this later as well. Thanks. Brilliant question, Andrew. It's, it's such a toughie. I used to work at the UN. I have no idea how I would be bringing this, this conversation within within the UN system at the moment. So yeah, any, any thoughts on anything Andrew's asked there? Yeah, nice to meet you, Andrew. And yes, we'll definitely follow up. I mean, I think people change organisations. And I think one of the key lessons I've learned from my own life is that, you know, we are all work in progress, you know, and the best way to impact and influence others is to model and embody that which you want to see, you know, and so I mean, I've sort of look at who I am in relationship to my colleagues. And so, you know, we know that ministries of health and WHO is a reflection of ministries of health is, is still highly medicalised, although that's, that's changing. It's, it's, it can be bureaucratic, it's hierarchical. And so how do you begin to build relationships and get people to sort of look at the parts of the organisation that we don't normally talk about? And that's feelings, that's emotions, that's our relationships. And, and I can see that Cecilia is, is, is amongst us. And so Cecilia and I are part of a group of activists that were started many years ago by our Assistant Director General at the time, to really try and change and shift the culture of our organisation. And so one of the things that we did was interview our own staff about their lived experiences of professional relationships. And we spoke to people. And there were some heartbreaking stories about how, you know, when we focus on what we do, not on how we show up and who we are, we are inadvertently creating ill health, and anxiety and stress, and not seeing it. You know, I remember when I first joined Javier Chauhan, and I was in a meeting and somebody stood up and said, I don't care if I don't like anyone, you know, it's about getting the job done. And you kind of wonder, well, if you don't like the person, what is that going to convey to them? And science has now shown us that there is emotional contagion, you know, that how I feel about you get communicated, even though I don't tell you that, and I'm trying to mask the fact that I don't like you. There's an intimate connection between our relationships and our brains and how our brains function. And I think we've been kind of bringing in that science and bringing in lived experiences data, and talking to people. And we've written a report about it. We went to our director general and said, look, this is how we need to be changing. This is what people are saying about their relationships. They recognize it needs to change. They're not happy with it. We need to create a culture where there's more collaboration and caring and kindness and concern. But it's everybody's business to do that. And that there is also people who are in who are responsible for teams and people who are responsible for organizational policies, and they need to do something about it too. And so Andrew, to ask your question, I think change comes from the inside, as well as the outside, and it takes courage, I think. And it takes as somebody once said to me, who was working quality improvement in one of the countries, it's about gathering together people who care about a certain issue, and then slowly working together to address it collectively. Yeah, really interesting. I'm hearing you answer Andrew there. I'm wondering when we talk about inner or outer work, it could be misleading because I'm hearing very much about relational work. It's not just inner, it's how we relate in organizational life, and therefore also how some of the assumptions about what is professionalism are really unhelpful for us to be honest with each other about the nature of the predicament. Andrew, I see you've just commented in the chat box as well, this yawning gulf between the aspirational stories of the UN based on the original charter and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and all the various conventions and treaties, including then and up to the Sustainable Development Goals, the whole 17 super aspirational ones, and then all the indicators that are looking really terrible at the moment in the opposite direction, that gulf, and yeah, are we allowed to show up at work and cry? And how many people do that? It's not about crying, Gem. I mean, seriously, it's not about it's being able to self regulate your emotional states so that you're not being reactive. You know, I mean, we, as we go about our daily business, you know, as we talk with colleagues, it's about noticing what's happening inside yourself. And knowing what triggers you and recognizing when those triggers are yourself and when those triggers are outside. It's a dance. It is a relational dance. And it's always paying constant attention to what is going inside of you, what is going between you and others. And if you're responsible for organizing meetings, for example, how can you design meetings so that everyone's voices is heard? I mean, how can you bring into into your meetings, decision making processes that is not about just because I'm the boss, I tell you what you should be doing. It's about creating interdependent professional relationships. And I think some of the interventions the organization needs to bring in to create a different kind of culture. Because I think one of the things that we also do within the UN is confuse process with procedure. You know, people will say it's not about the process, we have to get the results. But how can you get to quality results? If you don't look at how you design your processes to make sure that you work in ways that draw upon the people that you need, the data that you need, make sense of it so that you are, you are collab your co-developing your partnering your collaborating together. That's skill and that's competence. It's not just about crying about stuff. Not just. Didn't say only cry at work. Sorry, you triggered something in me there, Jen. Okay, we could laugh, laugh too. And even, I don't know, maybe not get angry. Yeah, interesting. So, Faye, you have a question for Asiya. Thank you. Asiya, I, given the focus on deep adaptation on social cohesion, I'm interested in your views on how health can be a force for social cohesion, particularly where communities are in displaced or conflict affected. Can we better integrate social cohesion into health systems strengthening and apologies for the kind of more sort of sector-specific language there, because I also work in this field. Thanks. I mean, the research on social cohesion is, is there, I mean, we, we know that if we have good quality relationships, if we have a social support system, we live longer. We are able to manage our anxieties. We, you know, stress goes down. We know that where relationships work and social networks exist. We have a very different experience. And, and I think health has to be a driver for change. I mean, health and well-being is fundamentally at the heart of human development. You know, if, if, if, if you, we don't take care of, of, of, of, of our health, then it has all kinds of consequences. I mean, COVID is just one example where, you know, health issues result in, in interventions and lockdowns that affect people's ability to work, people's ability to travel, which is huge economic consequences. But how we create health and maintain well-being is a fundamental question that I think we, we need to be asking. And we need to be asking this question across sectors and between sectors. There's, there's, there's a lot of sort of recommendations about working across sectors. But, but what is it that we're trying to change? And how can we have those, those, those conversations? I mean, I think there's, there's lots of projects in initiative. For example, there's one I recently came across called connecting to communities, for example, and there was one quote that, that stood up that said from the community, you know, if we wanted a unicorn, we said we would have wanted a unicorn, you know, but we wanted a dentist. Yeah. And so part of it is how do we listen to what communities actually need? And how do we then change ourselves to be able to deliver the kind of services and address the kind of issues that people need? They may need housing, they may need, you know, rubbish to be taken out of the, the housing estate, they may need, it's about listening. And I think one of the biggest complaints that we have is that communities say that health services don't listen to us. And one of the biggest complaints we have from health workers is that our management and our leadership don't listen to us. So even if we build in listening as a capability in itself, that could be transformative too. Yeah, I see. That's, that's really clear. And I know having chatted to you in the past, that is something you're very passionate about and leading on within, within the WHO. And so I hope more people in the UN system get to see this video and share it with colleagues, and perhaps we'll see more such attitudes and initiatives across not just the UN system, but into governmental sector more generally and beyond. As we've come to the end, I just want to check, is there something that you really feel you'd like to emphasize that you haven't shared? Or do you feel complete on this topic for now? I never feel complete on this topic, Gem. And I think it's so important, this, this understanding of relationality. But I believe relational competence is something that is so important to how we are able to build the kind of families, communities, organizations that can help us to thrive. And as relationships shift, I mean, even the relationship between men and women, for example, that's, that's a huge area in itself. It's really bringing in an understanding of what we mean by the connectedness that we have between each other. How does it work? And understanding that knowledge, how can we use that to build different kinds of relational dynamics that can help us thrive in all of our different kinds of relationship? Thank you. And it's amazing seeing some of the people who are working on related topics in the UN or in health that are sharing in the chat. So everyone, we're coming to the end now. So please put your emails in the chat, so you can connect with each other. Also, if you're interested in this, what we've talked about and sharing it with colleagues, then just type Jim Bandel into YouTube and you'll arrive at my YouTube channel and do leave it a couple of days. And then this video will be there. I'll also blog it on my blog, jambandel.com. And also in the notes to the YouTube video, there'll be links to various relevant things that have been mentioned by a CEO or by a people who have questioned or mentioned things in the chat box. So if you're interested also in next month's conversation and beyond, then the easiest thing to do is to look out for it either on the positive, so it's now just called deep adaptation, the deep adaptation Facebook group, or the deep adaptation Ning, you can get to through deepadaptation.info, or just type deep adaptation into LinkedIn, and you'll also find the deep adaptation leadership group. And this this will be an event. The next one will be an event there as well. So those are the easy ways for you to find out the next. So I see you. Thank you very much for joining us today and getting this conversation series started this year. You're welcome. Thank you for inviting me, Jim. Yeah, and good luck with all the work you're doing both within the UN system, but also in support of the deep adaptation forum. It's brilliant that you're on board and bringing your international ideas and insights and understanding of how the intergovernmental sector works. I'm learning to Jim. Thank you. We're all learning together. Thank you. Bye bye everyone.