 Welcome to Toffy TV, I am joined by John Blane, Chairman of the Shareholders Committee, is that right? Association. Association. This is what he's here for. Me to say the wrong thing and John to correct me. John B, let's call him that. You're getting better at it today. Well I'm just doing better than better than better. Where is he? Better looking. He's ran off to get his teeth done. He's getting those, you know like yeag and clop. Like getting like yeag and clop. He's getting highlights in his hair. John, I haven't seen you for a while and there's been changes of plenty at Goddison. Now from, we were just talking off camera just very generally. Now from my point of view, I'm pleased with the changes. First and foremost because there's actually names to actual responsibilities or accountability or however you want to wear that. Where there's I think for too long, it's been, everything's been clumped together and gone well it's all down to Robert Elstone or people have gone well that's not really me. And now it feels as though there's almost a map at the club to go well they do that and they do that and they do that. So am I right to think like that or? No I think you are. I think you're definitely right because you know as fans we're all key stakeholders aren't we in the football club. And you know often those who want to know is what's going on. And one of the things I do when I'm doing my day job is you should, I was talking about this earlier this week with somebody I was talking about directors direct and managers manage. Now the old chief exec appeared to want to direct, manage, open the mail, whatever whatever whatever. And this chief exec, the new one, Denise, she's clearly been a part of the old team and she just comes across and I met her earlier this week with a shareholders hat on because we had one of our quarterly meetings. And she clearly is more transparent, more open. That doesn't mean to say she's going to tell us everything. Of course. And when you're talking more approachable. I think so, yeah. And when you talk about business, I'm full of crap me, you know, another sound that it is, you know, teamwork isn't a democracy. So just because we're a team doesn't mean everyone gets an equal vote. So undoubtedly there will be things the football club don't want to tell us. Of course. Or can't. Yeah. Can't or won't, you know. But beyond that, I just get the feeling that Denise is going to seek to be as open as she can. She's going to try and consult with fans as often as she can. So that means things around Bradley Moore, the legacy for Goodison and all those sorts of things. And part of that transparency is, and what you'd expect with the new chief exec is I'm going to have my team. Yeah. Yeah. How do you make your team look different from somebody else's team? So one of the things you might do is change the job titles, I suppose. What happened? Or give job titles. Yeah. And so whichever way you look at it, you knew that Saturaz Ansef was on the board. But you didn't know what he did. No. He was a senior guy and probably contributed to board meetings and had opinions and gave advice and guidance and so on. But it's accountability that we're talking about. And we now know he's accountable for two things. Finance, which is an administrative task, adding the sums up. But the real one, commercial. Yeah. And we underperform commercially. Oh, massively. So now we know, Sasha's accountable for improving that. The board's collectively accountable. Of course. But within the board, they want him to focus on the commercial stuff. They want Keith Harris to focus on the new stadium, which presumably is everything from finalising the design to making sure we've got the money to buy the damn thing. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Dines has done his personal observation is the football club's governance didn't seem, if it was there, it wasn't visible enough. So she's putting those hygiene jobs into the team as well, being in finance director like Grant Ingalls. Yeah. Or Peter Shaw doing the operations side. Yeah. Order to be announced strategy guy and so on. So in short, what you just said is exactly what it is. Dines has come along. She's got the big job. I need to put a team around me and clearly and frequently the way you might assess how effective a leader is is how good they are or effective rather at putting good people around them. Now, lots of those people have been here for a while, which means it's not like rabbit in the headlights. But if people had a problem with the performance of the board or the senior management team previously, they might say, but it's the same guys. It's rearranging the deck chairs. It's bigger job titles and bigger pay packets for everybody. And so on. But what Dines said when we spoke with her, it's not just that. These people are now accountable. They've got very defined objectives. And I guess anyone who's known or come across Dines in a day job previously of being running the charity and so on, you can be a good communicator and you can be sympathetic and so on and so forth. But when decisions have to be made, you have to make them. And I have no doubt if one of that board underperforms and it's Dines's decision or whether they stay or go, then the right outcome will happen. So I think we have to give them a bit of time. And clearly you normally get a cascade of events that's going on in the sense that you do your top table, which was the board. And then she, Dines has extended that by talking about the next layers down and that's when you get into perhaps the people who are responsible. It doesn't allow people who are accountable to abdicate just because there's people who are responsible. But if you go down that tower, you effectively say, well, we've got a chief exec who's accountable for the performance of the business, non-footballing side. But she has to contribute to that because she has to produce the revenues and the profits that can be spent on players and all that good stuff. And she's effectively saying, and my man who's going to be accountable at board level for commercial performance, where we need to improve tremendously, is Sasha. And Sasha's team goes right and Alan, McTavish, this is Alan, isn't it? Alan is the man who's responsible for delivering on the commitments. So in a hierarchical sense, accountable at board are responsible. And we can't get into management theory and races and all those charts that you create because clearly you can have mixtures of accountable and responsible and so on. But everyone should know who they need to consult and who they need to inform so we can get decisions made. And Early Science, I think I said this in our podcast, the last podcast we did, Early Science are promising. Anyone who engages at the moment with the football club can see the difference. The first thing I did was let it settle, leave it alone for a number of weeks because she's probably still on her first 60 days or something. And then I rang me mates at the radio stations, the commercial ones, the public ones, the guys who write for newspapers, have you noticed any difference? And they all said yes. And it was positive differences. People in the past who may have been a bit reticent, a bit cautious, a bit awkward, all of us are what can I do to help you, that sort of thing. If that can be maintained, that's fantastic. Because that to me is obviously what we do. We deal with a side of the football club and on some level it's open and on another level it's not open and when it should be open and obviously, like you said very early on, we understand that the stuff you're not going to be told. That's fine, no problem with that. But I think I like the fact that we sat down quite sure when you sat last time in with Ped, you were talking about what you'd like to happen. We certainly did it in terms of a reshuffle and a restructure and we all knew, obviously Robert Elstom was moving on and we were unsure or unclear what was going to happen. But the fact that we've got the director of football and I think it's massively important. Now, we've got, obviously, Denise with the left hand doing business stuff and now you said there'll be a crossover in the past. There should be some football stuff, of course, because the academy comes in through Denise. And that comes in through Denise as well. But obviously we've got now Marcel Branzu as again accountable first team and down as well with that. And obviously we've got David Harrison, who's the director of football operations and stuff like that. So there's a clear line as well, which is what we have to follow. And I think that's really important because when people talk about the director of football, we've all been guilty probably of going. What does it do and what do we mean? But the games moved on, John, hasn't it? It's so much that. I think when you look at Everton, for anyone who doesn't like the director of football thing and I get it because it's still a new thing to us. I don't know what the split is out there. No, I don't. And a lot of people probably made up with it now but I know that there's some that don't like it. We're in a bit of a mess at the moment. I would suggest because we haven't had the director of football and what I mean by that. We had a guy called. Well, we had, yeah. But we didn't have one. In name. We didn't have one. But I just mean even going back as far as when David Moyes left because what happens is, or what has happened at a lot of football clubs is you get a manager in. So you come in as the manager. You buy half a dozen players to play long ball. Yeah. It doesn't work as well as we should. I'm not saying you're a long ball. A long ball. It doesn't work as well as it should. So we replace you with Joe who's sat over there playing pro-evolution soccer. Joe comes in and likes the pressing game or likes the possession game and he looks at your half a dozen players and goes they can't do what I need them to do. So I need another £150 million and we'll get what we can. And then Joe's Martin is and that doesn't work. And then I come in and I'm cumin and I go well I don't want John's players because they don't do that. I don't want Joe's players. So I need another. And you can't continue like that. Of course you can't. And if you get into... I've said many times on the podcast and probably in the early days because for people out there someone like Bill Kenwrights like Marmite Disney. He is. You've got the guys who think it's all his fault and there's the guys who think he's saved us where would we be and so on. And the truth is somewhere down the middle. Now because I have the good fortune to meet with him occasionally shareholder's that on and he knows me and I know him and so on and whenever we do any business for the nature of the business and some of my colleagues come with me and the like then he's clearly an enthusiast. And as chairman I think he's always seen his role as to be and he says it it might not always come across in the way people fully understand it. But his job is and this hasn't changed. His job is to give as much resource to the manager as possible. So when the manager comes along and says I won't weigh in Ruby I'll get him for you if I can. So if he goes and gets away in Ruby say. I won't Davy Classan I'll get him for you. What do you want him for? OK I'll get him. Get Davy Classan. I want Sigurdson. Hang on a minute we've got two of these ten things already. No no no I'll play them like this. OK. So he goes and gets him. Now who knows whether that's what happened but it's not too difficult to visualise is it? That's what did happen. And we might have thought that Walsh would be going no. We need two 10s first pick, standby. That's it. Sorted. Pick which ones you want. If we've just bought Classan and then someone becomes available and we see this in some clubs they just shift them out straight away don't they? So that's where the proper director of football comes along isn't it? And it's when we start hearing that we're actually playing the same brand of football in all the age groups and if you think about it under David Unsworth as the director of coaching and I think his responsibilities have been extended because he now includes the ladies team and all the age groups really is that when he was the manager for a while he was trying to bring the style of play that had been successful for him below under 23s into the first team and he didn't get long enough. Who knows whether it you know and too soon and all those sorts of things. But it shouldn't be like that should it? And so I'm pretty damn sure a proper director of football to believe Mr Brands really is it's going to say right how we're going to play it's called a plan or a strategy exactly even before a plan a strategy this is how we're going to play and if we're going to play like that when we look at players to buy or to retain or to let go it's based on where do they fit in how we're going to play so I actually think when he came in Brands and said I'm going to review everything part of that's got to be hasn't it how we're going to play and you pick a manager consistent with the way you want to play now we can all second guess just based on what Silver's done before that we're going to play a reasonably energetic technical pressing game so three years down the line Evie goes off to some big job somewhere which is always the half full version of Everton fans bumping against the half empty or we move him on then the style of play doesn't change therefore the types of players you want don't change and actually what you're really doing again when I do my day job I always think a line manager's job when I first explain this to people particularly the working for me it's a real problem for them when I say it this way my job is to remove all the excuses you've got for not doing yours that's it that's all I do and I say to people and I've said it many times then if down the line first time I made a load of people first time I had to make people redundant just through process improvement and all those other things someone said that's hard getting rid of people and I said well now if you're honest you need to trust in people and say I'm sorry but we've got some objective criteria why you're the person who has to go I'm really sorry but we'll look after you as much money as we can we'll help you find another job we'll give you training and all those other things so that's a force thing that you can't control the sacking one which is Baz is just crap I'm getting rid of him then people think I could never sack anybody and I say well my job is to take all the excuses away that's right so a bit like Sherlock says when you've exclude everything it isn't what's left it's what it is no matter how unlikely and if I leave it that actually the problem here Baz is you so let's agree how you're going to leave when I'm going to debate that you are leaving let's agree how you're going to leave whether you resign compromise agreements whatever it might be and I'm conscience free because I did my job tried to make you successful and so if our manager has everything not give him to a man on a plate because he's paid a lot of money we remove the excuses and he doesn't perform we replace him but we don't throw the baby out of the bathwater the players still need to be there when you have disruption when the players got rid of Martin S or when the players got rid of Marino so no matter how big your name is players can get rid of you it's easier to get rid of the manager than it is to get rid of 25 players or in our case 38 or whatever it is so all that stuff has to be joined together it's around people management trust blah blah blah and you have to communicate with stakeholders so they understand what's going on and I said to someone the other day and I think if you do social media and stuff and there's loads of divvies on every platform but there's loads of really bright people as well and if people interact and talk to each other we'll slowly get the message that this thing which is called Everton it's blue and beats in our hearts it's not going to get fixed overnight so management of expectation becomes part of the style of the business and that requires frankly trust it does and so the club needs to get the fans to trust the club but before they do that the club has to trust the fans and I think on occasions in the past the club has thought we won't tell them because they won't like it but you have to tell them eventually well you've got to me and Pead often say this control the narrative you shelf that comes if it's a problem and it's a problem you may as well fill the space then it's like whenever at the risk of repeating when we lose the bury the heads it's like don't come out for a few days it's from an old media aren't it so you've seen that all we've lost so you've got to deal with it if you come out and speak Tuesday we've still got beats on Saddy and then when they do or whatever it's always like I'll be played but come out and go you know what the terrible at the weekend it was one of them games no one had a good game or he played well or he because then everyone will go that's right there that's honestly what you're describing but lack of and under the previous regime the chief executive who's clearly a half empty person let's just describe Denise as half full doing the same job but the half empty person and the half full person behave completely differently one person is confident usually they know they've got the job because they're good enough for it they know they're going to be measured on how well they perform they're confident they can perform well therefore they're actually going to put the right people around them deal the person probably a bit more cautious is a bit worried that the young whipper snapper might steal their job once tab is or her hand on everything and so on and so forth so trust on this side is really hard to develop trust on this side is really easy this can do life history really coaching this guy is typically going to say you earn my trust this person you lose it and that's it people till I have a reason not to rather than I've got to know you three years before I've decided whether to trust you now a bit like the accountability responsibility stuff it's never that simple so there's layers of it but if overnight you have a trusting chief executive you should see a difference so the first game of the season that we play really bad or lose when we shouldn't or whatever whatever and those guys don't go into a bunker for two or three days you'll go whoa that's different that's got to be Denise's fault if it gets better it's got to be her fault if it doesn't get better it's also her fault and she won't have an issue with it I've noticed even even this week with the man that you're obviously having his first training session we've been saying for ages and talking to people you need to get more stuff on the website you need to get more shots of the players more stuff of the manager because you're creating the buzz you don't leave it and go oh the manager alone he gave us 10 minutes filming a week now that was what Ronald Coobam I think it was 15 minutes filming a week someone should have turned on to him and gone let me just stop you there big man you are our employee and the fans are our lifebloods so we will film an hour a week or 40 minutes a week or 50 minutes a week show that the fans are seeing what's going on what needs to be remembered because you just said it and it's blunt it's stark but it's true and I remember saying to someone really quite seen in the football club but they're just employees and all employees should be treated respectfully know what their job is know how their performance is measured and get rewarded for not delivering their performance for exceeding performance and one thing that Denise said is these guys have all got directors off now when they were heads off exactly what you said you wanted to see because we won't see the minutiae about it but buried in the depths of that is that guy now knows what good looks like and if he's not delivering good he'll get the support infrastructure around him to say are you struggling do you need some training do you need more people and we'll help you perform so while some people in an audience whether it's people listening to business matters or people on Twitter or whatever whatever whatever people director that's a bit fluffy but that's what it's about it used to be called personnel then it was human resources now it's people and we're all people and we all deserve to be treated respectfully and part of that is if I'm not doing a good job tell me don't just give me a curly finger one day and sack me and that goes back to my war story before about I never have a problem sacking people because it's the absolute last resort and that needs to apply at all levels so when you say the manager says I don't want my players mixing with key stakeholders someone should say why not it's a distraction for them well he's going to go and play golf for four hours in the sun without some motion on or something or he's going to go down a boozer and drive over when he shouldn't and whatever whatever whatever so let's stop using excuses and look at England same thing pass managers behind big walls poor guys getting bored to death playing how many god knows games of sitting cars or video games now they get out and embrace people they chill, they relax they have something to occupy them cos a footballers life is weird isn't it a couple of hours every day real intense training assuming you then go and have massages or you go and do some extra stuff yourself but they're all going to be early afternoon heading home nothing to do, play video watch telly, listen to some newspaper saying you're crap whatever and if you haven't got any kids or you're single it's even worse cos you haven't got family around and so on but they are employees they stopped doing the play of the month lunches because the manager didn't want them that's the whole thing it's like if you look at American sport the culture is different they don't address me before games American will get you going after the game when I was over in Florida very well so I've gone to Orlando city met the ladies and eat them if you want you can come in the minute the whistle goes 15 minutes with the play and I'm just going to watch the game cos I've got me dad family with me but he said if you want to interview anyone on me you've got 15 minutes after the game players will have ice on that's probably a bit too much but somewhere in the middle but they play as a contractor to that club so they don't go in and go I'm getting off for 11 o'clock that's it you're getting x amount of money so if I tell you you're not leaving you've got responsibilities at 12 you've got to go to the local school for two hours totally one off if not the highest paid sports person around these days someone like Lewis Hamilton they've got a camera and a microphone stuck in their face while they're getting out of the car but they accept it's part of the job and that needs to be educated and so when players are coming to this particularly if they're coming up through the ranks John Joe Kenny you say this is part of the job this is it I sponsored Ty Browning Stosey when he was here currently Mason Hullgate in the light Ross, these are all people who are a bit shy and things like that and so we'll coach you then we'll teach you how to be good in front of the media we'll do this, we'll do that, we'll do the other I mean UEFA and FIFA they make them go through mix zones but they go through with the heads down with microphones embrace it, go over and talk to a journalist you're more than likely to get a relationship with him but if you go across to a journalist and he says oh yeah can you tell me about that fantastic goal you scored from 35 yards and you go well you tell me why you said I have my legs are only for standing on them oh sorry mate because it goes both ways of course that's what Southgate started the relationship is there get out there, they're going to be in your face anyway and you can slag off a footballer if you're a journalist or a fan if he's just a name of course yeah but if it's a real life person who you've met and you know what actually Fred isn't completely wots it he's alright, he's doing the best he can and so on it doesn't mean you can't criticise but it means there's a way you criticise so I'm quite optimistic that things will change but time will tell there's some timetable things that are going to happen aren't there for this new board clearly there's going to be a general meeting and that was always the Robert Elston show you know months of preparation and all that sort of stuff so when myself and Dave Kelly who sits on our executive committee when we met with the Football Club earlier in the week with Denise and Richard Kenyon and what have you at Finch Farm so we were there on the first day of training and there's clearly an appetite to listen take on board suggestions and act upon them so Denise sat there and said that's a good idea but that's the thing though because that's what it's about doesn't mean it's going to have to you could come in and go I've got ten ideas for what you and Peg can do to Peg oh go ahead mate seven of them might be amazing or three of them might be amazing or one of them might be amazing but at least you'd know and go alright well that's a good idea we can't do that because but what's wrong with that is that you've worked there for 11 years so I know exactly what it's like out so I was in the ticker office for a bit but I did tours with David and different things but I've actually put a pity on Twitter from 1995 and I've got a look like I've just signed for the 12-year-old it's in the air of town come in every week mate but it's about it was always like a week and you don't take advice off anybody you're a fan it's like we'll see him he cares more about it than you and different things because it doesn't matter we're all attached to the football club we all love it, we all want it to be number one we want it to be as big as it can ever be of course we do and we want it to maintain what we love about it and they will only be able to marry those two if they listen if they just go blah blah blah which to me I feel like that's what they do sometimes you are but you're right things are and have slowly started opening up the other way and I think there's some fantastic people working at our football club I really do and I know it's easy to go you know them and you'll get people who will never agree with of course you can, please everybody but we have to be moving in that direction thank you see you soon on Softly TV cheers guys