 Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening to everyone. It's early morning here on the West Coast of the United States. I Hope all are well wherever you are. I am Tim Hanstead I am the CEO of the Chandler Foundation and I welcome you all to this webinar on the role of open data in the fight against land corruption The webinar involves the intersection of two topics that I think deserve to be much more elevated on the global development agenda. That is land rights and corruption. At the Chandler Foundation, both of these topics are priority sector areas for us. Why? Because the well-being of every person on the planet and indeed the well-being of the planet itself depends on secure land rights. Secure land rights and capable land institutions are a cornerstone of any modern economy. Strong land rights uphold Housing security, they give confidence for individuals to invest in land and businesses. They allow companies and households to borrow using land as collateral. They enable governments to collect property taxes and their foundation for sustainable environmental stewardship. So without land tenure systems and institutions that work Societies risk missing the foundation for sustainable prosperity. And this threatens most the lives and livelihoods of those at the margins and corruption. Corruption is a cancer That substantially limits the ability of land institutions to provide that good land governance, which is necessary to build and broaden prosperity. I want to say that again, because this issue of corruption, I think, does not get enough attention on the global development agenda. Corruption is a cancer that substantially limits the ability of land institutions to provide the good land governance necessary to build and broaden prosperity. Land agencies are often among the most corrupt of all government agencies. Experts tell us that one in five people worldwide have paid a bribe to access land services and in some countries, the number rises to one in two. And land corruption goes beyond just the petty corruption of small extra fees. Land is among the government's most valuable assets and allocating control over and use of land can involve billions, if not trillions of dollars of value and corruption at grand scale. But fortunately, there are multiple tools in the toolbox for addressing land corruption. And today we're going to focus on one of those tools, open data. I'm excited about the presentation and the panel discussion we're going to have. We're going to get a summary presentation of recent study findings on the role of open data and fighting land corruption. The study was funded by GIZ and the findings will be presented by the study's author, Dr. Marcello de'Maria. And Marcello's presentation will be followed by a dialogue among our fabulous group of panelists about the issues raised in the report. And you and the audience will have an opportunity to participate at points throughout our time together. We'll be seeking your input early with some poll questions and then after the presentation and the panelists dialogue. We'll spend some time fielding questions from you for the study author and or the panelists. So before we jump into things, allow me please to introduce our speakers. First we have Dr. Marcello de'Maria, the author of the study being published by GIZ. Marcello is a postdoc researcher at the School of Agriculture Policy and Development at the University of Reading. Sorry, Marcello will be, as I mentioned, be presenting the summary of the report in just a minute. Then we have just really an incredible group of panelists with a depth of experience and expertise on the issues that are coming up in this. In this report. Those panelists include the Honorable Ellen Pratt. Ellen's a Commissioner of Land Use and Management with the Liberian Land Authority. Commissioner Pratt is an executive management professional and certified urban planner who has over 20 years experience in both public and private sectors and in both Liberia and the United States. As one of five commissioners in Liberia's land agency, Commissioner Pratt is charged with the development of a national land use planning and management framework for the country. So it's great that we're going to get the experience from someone from the government on these issues. Next we have Allad Williams. Allad is a senior advisor at the U4 Anti-Corruption Resource Center. At CMI in Bergen, Norway. Allad is a political scientist focusing on aid, corruption, governance and natural resources. He is a co-editor of two books on corruption and has country experience in more than a dozen countries in Asia, Africa and Europe. Next we have Anya Calderon. Anya is the executive director of the Open Data Charter, which is a collaboration between governments and expert organizations working to open up data. Prior to her work as executive director at Open Data Charter, she served as general director for the National Digital Strategy in Mexico. Anya has a MPA in urban policy from Columbia University in New York. Then last but not least we have Dr. Andreas Lange. Andreas is a senior advisor for land governance at GIZ, Germany's leading provider of international cooperation services. At GIZ, Dr. Lange has worked for many years on issues of land governance and rights in both rural and urban areas, including in the areas of digital innovation, impact assessment, policy analysis, and capacity building. So the webinar is being recorded and the video as well as the key messages will be available in the land portal's website. There are a couple of blogs posted there and the land portal will be publishing a series of interviews on the open data and land corruption in the coming days and weeks. I know we had over 600 people registered for our webinar today. And it looks like we're already over 200 people attending on the Zoom platform. A few additional logistical notes before we jump into it. Please note that live tweeting is occurring for the event from the land portal Twitter account and the hashtag we are using is land corruption. If you do have questions for Marcello or the panelists, please put them in the Q&A function on Zoom and not the chat box feature. But if you do have comments or links to relevant studies or work that you might be doing, please do put that in the chat. So let's kick off the webinar with a question. We want to get a sense of who you are out there in the audience. So we have a couple of quick polls to get a better understanding. You should be seeing this on your screen now. Please answer in which region are you based and which sector do you represent and I'll give you about 20 or 30 seconds to answer those and we'll then all look at the results together. Okay, hopefully everyone's got a chance has had a chance to submit their answers. Let's take a look if we can all together on screen at the results. Okay, so you can see these. We have people participating from all around the world, even from the Americas. I don't know how many else are in the west coast of the United States where it's just after 6am. But I hope we have a few few others there from from Africa from. Yeah, that's this is great. A global audience. And in terms of sectors also a lot of diversity there. About a quarter of our attendees from government about a quarter from civil society and NGOs. About a quarter from universities and knowledge institutes. Great. Thanks. Good to have this diverse audience looking forward to your to your questions and any additional information you can put in the chat that will help us on our on our learning journey around this topic. Now again for the audience. We would like to get a sense of how important you feel open data is in combatting corruption. To see if your impressions match the outcomes of the study so there's a question here you can read it yourself if you could just fill in an answer. And we'll again take a look at the answers together. Okay, I'll give you about five seconds more to submit your answer. Great. Okay, let's look at the results. All right, looks like the number one answer was 10. Followed by eight. So we've got Yeah, seven and above are Let's see about 80% or more of the Of the responses. So we have an appreciation of the importance of the issue and it'll be interesting to to compare that with what they found with Marcello Found in the study with that I'm going to pass it over to Marcello to present the results of your study. Thank you, Tim. Hopefully I've managed to unmute myself properly. Now I'll try to manage and present properly as well. Hopefully you can see my screen. Hello, everyone. I have to thank everyone, the audience, the organizers, the panelists, not only because you gave me the opportunity to trade my traditional lockdown outfit with a proper shirt today, but also because you are giving me the opportunity to present fresh evidence from a research that I've co-authored with Nico, Nico, or why we are both a young researcher based at the University of Fredding School of Agriculture Policy and Development. And I also wish to acknowledge the generous support of GIZ, the anti-corruption and integrity program, if I'm not mistaken, which made this research on the role of open data as anti-corruption tool in the land sector possible. Now, they might have made this work possible, but I have to confess that the first time that I look at the job description, I thought I was faced with a mission impossible. I mean, to understand and assess the impact of open data and information technology and transparency initiative on all forms of land corruption across the globe. I mean, that sounds like a mission impossible. I tried my best because I thought that this was a crucial research gap to be filled. So, we put together a study design that needed to be adapted to the COVID situation with an iterative analysis from desk-based research where we surveyed existing literature, publications, and data, and in-depth interviews, if you want, a survey component from our study where we put together sectoral experts from government, private sector, civil societies, non-governmental organization, and so on, and we explored in-depth this topic. Now, our research looked at the intersection of three domains, open data and new technology, land governance, and corruption, or even better, anti-corruption. So, why is such a specific topic so relevant to all of us? And the answer is that I believe that we are facing a perfect storm of events which make these questions on the impact of open data and transparency initiative on curbing land corruption more relevant than ever. Now, to understand this perfect storm, I think the first element in the background is the data revolution. I think at this moment in time, everyone who is working as a data analyst is thinking today is the better day of my life for my work, because there were never more data, there were never better data than today. And tomorrow is probably going to look even brighter in terms of data availability and the capability we have to combine and analyze this data. So, we have so much data, the data revolution is producing so much information, information is crucial for decision making, but at the same time the existing evidence suggests that land ownership data are not as open and accessible as other types of data. So, this is for instance a map based on the fourth edition of the open data barometer that actually reinforce this point. So, we have a growing base of data and knowledge, even growing land related data, but this information is not always accessible and available. And we get to another element of the perfect storm I did mention before. We are still far from the achievement of sustainable land governance, for instance, recent prindex data, a beautiful open data initiative, by the way, reminded us that over a billion people are still feeling insecure about their land and property globally. So, finally, the last ingredient of the perfect storm is land corruption itself. There is anecdotal evidence about the incidence of land corruption. So, we have few recent specific metrics. For instance, you see a map that is based on one of the component of land decks and is I think a joint initiative between Afro barometer ILC and TI and they are measuring perception around land corruption in Africa. So, land corruption is probably much more common that we think it has many phases, it ranges from international money laundering through land and real estate operations to forgery and bribery of land titles, but there's really, really much more. Now, we still have an incomplete set of metrics for land corruption, but we know the information we have suggested land that corruption in land administration services, it's comparatively more common than other sectoral forms of corruption, for instance, which might be surprising, but at the same time, if we do, if we think how important is land and how important are other natural resources, socially, economically and environmentally then this is not anymore entirely surprising, I would say. Now, to understand how open data can help counteracting land corruption. I want to make a real world example. This is a story I like that I discuss also in the upcoming report. And it is the story of the register of beneficial ownership overseas and offshore companies in the UK. This story starts when the government of the UK started to publish land and property data was, I think, one of the first governments in the world in an increasingly open manner. This data went out, new data came out, they were accessible and people started to use this data. They started to combine them with other sources of available data. They put together also freedom of information request to gather additional pieces of information, and around 2015 2016 a couple of pieces of investigative journalism made clear that there were a series of opac landowners that were kind of shielded behind the names of the anonymity if you want of offshore companies. So public opinion researchers, they started to pressure the government until they started a public consultation. They started some research on the cost and benefit of creating such register and eventually they promised that they would have implemented such registry by the end of 2021. Now, in the meanwhile, the government change and a lot of attention, of course, is on the on the COVID pandemic. So it's not clear how this story will end. But I think what the point that I want to make is that if we had to measure with one metric, this story, if we have to measure the impact that open data on anti corruption in this story with one metric, that would be really difficult. And that's the next point. The next finding if you want to follow report, we realize that the theory of change behind open data as anti corruption tool in the land sector is probably more complex than we think. It's a very long chain of action and reactions and players that need to play in order to reach an outcome that might be actually delayed and lagged all the time. So we might see the benefits only later on. This story highlights that it is not just about the infrastructure, the data itself publishing the data making them available. But it's also about a series of factors that in practice allow to prosecute identify and prosecute corruption. We call these factors enabling conditions. If you want these are exogenous elements from open data and transparency initiative themselves, but they are extremely important because they relates to the political will that needs to be in place in order to address corruption issues to the public engagement because data themselves they don't capture corruption they need to be used and analyzed and combined in order to create evidence and expose corruption. And then the end we need to have for instance a political framework that enables the prosecution of corruption. So we learned from our report and this one of the questions that you see here is the very same question that we asked to the poll at the beginning of the webinar. We learned that there is an overwhelming support in when we for the importance of open data and transparency initiative as anti corruption tools in the land sector. At the same time we also learned that there is a gap, quite sizable perceived gap between the actual potential that these initiatives are having are having on the ground and the full potential that they might have in terms of anti corruption results. So we try to identify what is preventing the achievement of these full potential of the sector that was so clearly identified by the existing literature but also by the expert. We had the opportunity to talk to and we identified at least for controversial areas. We told them trade off because in the words and in the discussion we had we were able to identify somehow to extreme positions that were to some extent conflicting. I probably don't have time to explain all these trade off but I want to just spend a couple of words on the one between transparency and privacy because that probably was the one that was often recurring. So on the one hand we would like to have all land and ownership data transparent and available to all but on the other and we know that some of the information might contain privacy. One might contain sorry an individual information that might infringe in privacy and in some extreme case they might even put that risk for instance, the safety of land right defenders, for instance when you know from a public registry where they leave it might be used as a weapon. Now the good news is that for each of these trade off by looking at real experience real stories real cases. We also find best practices and potential solutions to balance these differences. For instance, mixed licenses in in cadastral registry so you are allowed to access the bulk of the data openly, but the part of the data that contains private or sensitive information might require extra layers or of verification and authorization. So finally to conclude, we found a sector that is relatively young, because I think the first open data and transparency initiative in the land sector started probably a decade or a little bit longer ago, but is a sector that is reaching its maturity. And so we put together some recommendation the first one and I think it's one of the most important one is try to be opened by default. The land sector, the information in the land sector has been produced adopting a close by default paradigm so far. So we need to embed open data principles in the design of all intervention and possibly make funding opportunity conditional to compliance to open data principle. We know that for open data and transparency initiative to succeed, we need to engage a very wide set of stakeholders, and we need to ensure participation especially of the most vulnerable one they are not just the final users or beneficiaries, but they also need to be the right specialist that maintain the system, the project manager that shapes these initiatives and so on. We need to look at the land data system as an ecosystem with different parts and enabling conditions outside the system to be in place as well. We are producing new metrics every day, but we still don't have I think the right metrics to measure impact and to produce evidence that for instance would give a clear indication of the dollar by dollar value of this kind of initiative. And this is important also for the last point, we need to come up with a simple shared and powerful advocacy message. The impression that was coming from our interviews is that we have new players entering this field every day, but they are also somehow competing to for fundings and they are trying to cut their own niche of interest and these somehow distribute and spread and dilutes the message reducing cooperation so we really need to come up with an evidence based and powerful message and speak with one voice. Thank you so much. Marcello, thank you. Wow, so much, so much in there and I can already see in the chat that there's a there's a lot of energy and reactions to it. I want to move now to our panelists I want to start with with Ellen. Ellen as a as a commissioner of land in Liberia and in charge with such a such a huge task. As you listen to Marcello summary of the of the findings. What about it kind of resonates for you and your work in the specific context of Liberia. Thank you so much for the question and it's very good to be here representing the Liberia land authority. So, so much of this study is important for the work that we do for several reasons one, it resonates because the land authority is a new agency were less than a world four years old. We were literally legislated in 2016. And the first set of permissioners myself and my colleagues did not start working until 2017. So it's been an ambitious road, if you will, since then, and we've started from a very low base. Liberia does not have a digital land information system. All of our records are still very manual their paper based, and they're still spread out across various agencies and ministries, simply because of many of the transitions through our 14 years of warfare, and then coming back, returning to normalcy. And when you look at the study and you start to talk about what are some of the foundational elements that are required for open data to work for land corruption. One of the things that resonates with me are the legal frameworks. Those are foundational, because you have a system that has been broken, a lot of lack of coordination, but involving a multiplicity of actors and ministries. So that legal framework is key to to the success of a platform. I think also looking at the intersection or the differences between what is transparency and what is privacy resonates because that is very key. A lot of people oppose open data because they think they think it will violate privacy. But when you start to look at the levels, as he said, the levels of protection, licensing requirements, those are some of the, the takeaways and the communication tools that need to be provided to us as policymakers. So as in a country like Liberia, where we are now at the beginning of trying to develop this open data specific to land, you look at some of those challenges and you find best practices and ways to overcome them. Thank you. Thank you so much. And it's just so helpful to get experience from someone who's actually in charge and working with the government on these issues in the ground. I want to turn to you. You know, Marcello's study makes the point that the road from open data to lack of corruption is not straight and it's not short. Can you can you share from your experience kind of maybe some specific country examples where you have seen open data play a role in addressing corruption. Yes, thank you Tim for the questions so over the past few years I've been involved from the side of you for in following the one map one data policy in Indonesia in a project funded by German Development Corporation in Indonesia and with the Anti-Corruption Commission in in Indonesia. The interesting thing I think to note about this initiative is that there has been a realization in Indonesia that there was a very fragmented picture in terms of the graphic resources used for land governance. So there are many, many different fragmented maps which the state authorities, different public agencies were using to manage different issues and these maps and the graphic resources were not speaking very well to each other in fact they were speaking past each other. And as in many places around the world land tenure land tenure insecurity land conflict is rife in Indonesia. And so there was a recognition that there was a need to do something about this and that's where the one map one data initiative came from to try to provide one map that would be available to integrate all of these different thematic and sectoral concerns. And there has been some very good progress made in terms of that resource that that map. There have been a series of pilots in five provinces across Indonesia, and there's been a real process of sorting through the data, collecting it, putting it into the correct formats and then making that available to different public authorities. I would just go back to one of Marcelo's points around the theory of change however. So, theoretically that the, the, the role of open data in land in reducing land corruption of course depends on the use of that information by various stakeholders. And one of the things we see in the one map one data policy is that unfortunately that data is at the moment still only available to state authorities and not to, for example, journalists or NGOs or researchers and others. And in my view I think that limits the potential anti corruption impact of the one map one data policy. At the same time as there are of course some possibly legitimate concerns around opening up the data without proper protocols. So issues of commercial sensitivity and national economic security, for example, are quite important. So that I think points to the need for working on relevant protocols for data sharing and to make sure that those protocols are therefore legitimate reasons and not for reasons which might support correct practices. Yeah, thank you so much so interesting and so important. Anya I want to turn to you because you also, in addition to your, your experience with open data charter and before that, you also work in the government and as a general director, general director for the national digital strategy in Mexico What what did that experience in in Mexico and show you about land corruption and the potential at least impact of open data and addressing it. Thanks Tim and it's it's a pleasure to be here I think to me it was an opportunity to see how you know the the sets of interest and pushbacks that are in place to create an enabling environment that is conducive to opening up for for concrete purposes and that's one of the principles and sort of approaches that we advocate around the open data charters that you know how many panelists have already mentioned in opening up data on itself does not lead to automatically tangible benefits in the world it requires a series of additional conditions and we saw how Marcelo clearly presented that but it really resonates in terms of the the report as well how you know it has become increasingly well understood that the way we gather and use data as a reflection of how power is distributed in our society so it becomes so apparent you know why they're there and I saw a series of excuses and privacy as has mentioned already in the report was often one that's most used as sort of a smoke screen to not publishing any information at all. So I think these power dynamics are very important to consider because it you know on one hand the power dynamics mirror you know they work to protect those that are already in positions of power and at worst it can also cause harm in perpetuating systems of inequality that tend to affect the most vulnerable and marginalized group so who gets to decide what land data we collect how we collected what we keep private and what we share is a matter of public interest especially because inland corruption is also an area that tends to impact the most vulnerable so this recommendation on focusing on engaging multiple stakeholders with a particular angle of identifying you know who are those most vulnerable I think it's critical to move the impact if we are to see whether and how we see open data impact land corruption it needs to be thought of in a way that you know land data collection and publication need to account for this political and power dynamics in which they operate and seek to achieve justice, inclusion and equity so I would say perhaps in my experience you know pushing for the arguments around the benefits of open data as a government official you know it was not just about that data being useful in terms of informing better land governance that's needed to address land corruption that means that land administration and management needs to be transparent efficient and participatory while ensuring you know that the outcomes are also equitable we need to measure this we need data but additionally in my experience what I saw is that these initiatives when you roll them out not only restructure data and increase the access to data but also the bureaucracy around it so it requires governments processes and activities to be reconfigured redesigned relentlessly around particular targeted policy challenges that you're pushing forward so it follows I believe that in an increasingly data-driven society good land governance will require good data governance as an unnecessary ingredient to fight corruption Thank you Anya Yeah the power dynamics the political dynamics that you emphasize whenever we're talking about land or corruption and certainly at their intersection just so important Andreas you also have a country experience from a lot of places I'm wondering if you could maybe draw on some of that and maybe pick a particular country setting where you've worked where you have seen open data either be impactful in addressing corruption or maybe not impactful and maybe not kind of going through that theory of change which we all hope and expect Thank you Tim and also thank you for inviting me today I think I want to make a few points maybe before I turn to an example I think there's clearly a connection between the existence of data that you can actually publish and of course registration programs if governments don't engage in land tenure programs you don't have a lot of data available and I think as long as we don't see an increase in these programs we also have difficulties actually to engage in open data strategies and in my observation I think from a petitioner's perspective I think there might be two ways of pushing for it from below and I think from top so when we talk from pushing from below I think engaging with the grasswood level would be extremely important because if people demand data and if there's a clear need and an interest in knowing what's going on in your community I think this could be a strong point at the same time I think that we also need to reflect on how leaders pick up the benefits of such programs because as you have said it also I think Tim in your intro and the existence and the open the well the securing tenure rights existence of such rights documenting them has a tremendous impact on economic, social, etc. and I think if we can create these stories and if we if we can show that this actually has an impact on economic on social and other factors I think we might we might be moving forward this is one example I wanted to bring in which is something where GS had helped setting up a communal database on land tenure in Peru I think we'll be posting the link shortly this is basically a database that combines various types of data so you have you have geographic information but of course you also have ownership information involved, however, and I think I let also mention it, it follows sort of a protocol so not everything is visible to everyone. For example, when you go to the platform, you can see certain areas but you for example you can see this is own collectively, etc. but you will not be able to look for I don't know a person that owns it. So we see here the different the different protocols and level and I think that's crucial because I think we need to think about how these protocols can work and we also think about how this can be fit for purpose. Because it clearly does cost factors and I was so dazzled by a much jealous map which shows you also how little progress we have actually made also in many of the OECD countries in data openness. So now when we when we transfer this bring this into our advisory work to some of our partners from the global south we need to choose carefully what is what is feasible what's doable and how this can translate to something that that actually works in the context. So it's fit for purpose. Thank you, Tim. Thank you Andreas. Yeah, this is fit for purpose and the contextual situation that enabling conditions of power dynamics and in all of this is so important and I want to draw you back in in a second much to maybe respond to some of these comments but first I want to go back to you on and as you listen to the, you know, the other panelists and thinking about the situation in in Liberia like how speak to us for a bit about these issues around the power dynamics or the political dynamics, and, you know, what is the relevance of them and maybe also if you could think the, the point that's come out is that it's not just an issue of whether open data can be positively beneficial. I think the points been made here that there actually can very well be unintended negative consequences. And maybe how do you think about that in the Liberian context. Thank you for the for the question Tim so I think that our power dynamics are a very real issue here so I will go back to a little bit about the, the political will. I first spoke about the land sector not having open data there's open data in other sectors agriculture, energy, we actually have an open data platform, not as populated as maybe some other countries but it's a start, but for land, we do not. And I think it also goes back to the political will I think we see a positive will in several things one, not only in the enactment of legislation that created a land agency to combat the corruption, the fraudulent transactions etc so this land agency was developed and consolidated land functions from multiple agencies. Then we saw the passage of what is argued to be one of Africa's most progressive land rights policies. So we're start we're moving in the right direction, where our challenge lies is in institutional capacity, as well as technical capacity, so you have to understand how those who are framed and then that's where sort of the legal framework becomes very important, because you have multiple agencies, and the study will show that, in order for open data to be successful, it has to be participatory, it has to involve these different agencies so how do you get all of them to speak together how do you integrate all of these different institutional systems and frameworks, and then the issue of interoperability and integrating the technical systems. So one of the challenges we've seen is in the development of this land agency there have been several pilot projects and several projects that have looked at how we started to develop this land information system, which of course is a prerequisite to, and having data before we start to look at how is it open, and looking at the different systems, and the country has to develop that platform we as a country have to say, what is the system, or what is the platform that will work for us, because every donor, every agency, every partnership may advocate for a different technology. So I think one of our challenges as a country is how do we understand the technology that best fits our context. And then something that is also very important as we look at ICT and the technological innovations, we must understand the Liberian context, 63% illiteracy, less than 5% of the country electrified. The issue of the internet is a very urban issue in the rural areas, you barely have phone coverage, much less internet coverage. Most Liberians outside of the cities do not own a smartphone. So all of that you have to take into place as you look at how best to use open data and how effective it can be for your citizens because at the end of the day, you need your citizens to have answers, access to be able to combat corruption. Thank you, Tim. Yeah, wow, so important. I mean, Andreas made the point about fit for purpose, you're adding the point of fit for context. Thank you. Marcella just for a moment if we could bring you back in. As you hear these these comments from the panelists any any kind of quick quick points you want to address. Wow, this, I think there's so many points I would like to address. I, I particularly liked the fact that the panelists so not just me made explicit that whenever we are talking about corruption, we are talking about power dynamics, and we are talking about the distribution of information across different players. So that's a crucial elements because different power balances. It's exactly in the gap between more powerful actor and less powerful actor that corruption enters. I thought it was very interesting one of the passages we just heard from from Ellen. She was talking about interoperability. So we made clear how the foundation somebody somebody called foundations the enabling conditions that I've mentioned in my presentation. There are the legal framework, the policy framework, but there is also a very technical dimension, which is made of the existing know how and and technologies and standards for data interoperability and sharing. And that's very important. And then, finally, the last comment is that I don't think we currently have the right metrics for measuring land corruption, and especially the impact of open data on land corruption. We are seeing a multiplication of sources of information. None of them is is perfect, but this is the moment in time where we need to start building baselines. We can start filling in time zero in our log frames and see where we start from and given how fast the data revolution is going given the incredible, you know, metrics that even a couple of years ago were just a dream. And now they're real. I think in a couple of years, we might be able to have metrics that measures the actual impact of open data on on reducing land corruption, rather than metrics that I have to use for instance in these reports that are that are based on on expert perceptions. So, yeah. No, great points. And we're going to turn to the questions from the audience in just a second by just quickly ask a couple more questions and on you I want to come to you. We have in our audience as the poll suggested earlier, quite a number of people who are from government sector. You know, given your experience which you have that experience within the government but also now working outside the government. What, what, what are kind of some key messages you would want to give those in other governments who maybe haven't been as immersed in this question, and this topic, and are now realizing they want to or need to get immersed in it. Any other questions of advice. Sure, I think. I mean, there's, there's several things I can. I learned what to do and what what not to do what works and what's not successful but I would say, maybe I would focus on thinking when trying to sort of embark on open data policies. It's important to look at the orders that are already in place when you're trying to propose a new model. So for example, as has been said already. It's important to look at both the benefits and the risks and in that way you know we need to ensure that there's access to data that you know maybe it might be already accessible in digital formats you know it's it's quite simple to structure and share, but in doing that, we need to think of you know what is the purpose behind it what are we trying to achieve. Because, you know having worked in government it's it's you know resources are so constrained and and you have little time to implement large scale projects that you really need to think about you know how are you going to focus on impact. When delivering this project so along with these these efforts also thinking in the long term and sustainability of them. As you've already mentioned Tim it comes with talking about or considering both the benefits but also the risks in terms of capabilities, for example, if the capacity to use data is unevenly distributed, we need to build that data literacy. So that opening data does not reinforce structural gaps where you only have those that are already privileged and have the skills to use them to benefit from them. So thinking about ways that you can sort of level the playing field and and bring everyone sort of to reap the benefits of open data. Also looking at you know existing legal frameworks, for example, strengthening access to information loss along with strong privacy protection legislation can create that environment of good rule of law around the governance of data and information. And finally, like within the sector, the land sector I would look at you know what is already out there what are the institutional frameworks or commitments, sustainable development goals there's many land related targets and indicators the land information system declaration, the file voluntary guidelines on responsible governance of tenure tenure you know many governments organizations and stakeholders have committed to implementing these frameworks. How can we maybe connect and start engaging with these communities to implement an open by default approach. So yeah I think I would focus on you know what's already in place and and trying to work together with a broad set of stakeholders to propose a model that is working in benefit for shared goals. Thank you. Thank you. Well, wise wise words. So, we're going to jump to q amp a after this last last question. So for those of you in the audience if you haven't submitted your questions please do I'm. I've been a lot of them so we probably won't get to all of them but Andreas. I want to ask a question to you about the future. What do you see as as the trends and what is the future of data in anti corruption work in relation to land. That's very, that's a very mean question in a way because I mean who can look into the future right. I think I see a trend at the moment. And I think it was mentioned also by by Ellen in many countries. There's a lot of dynamics in the urban areas. And the, I think the availability of internet electricity, etc. In the urban areas is very much different than for many rural areas. And we also see at the same time I think an interest of many governments to engage in land registration and building up systems in urban areas because you have a you have a stronger business model, because there's more income in the cities, people can actually afford to maybe get a land title or pay for a survey, etc. So we see this in many countries. Of course, there are poverty issues in the urban areas as well. I think it's doing a great job in looking at those aspects, for example, in some of the areas in the big cities. So, but I think if we could, or if there is a if there's a drive to speed up the land tenure work in urban areas, we might also have a very good case for open data because we have the we have the basic infrastructure is in place and if some of the issues can be resolved to privacy issues fit for purpose. Other other issues that were mentioned, I think we might have an interesting case in the future where those things can be further tested and where we could also further study potential impacts. Back to you, Tim. Well, it might have been a mean question, but you handled it very, very well and Thank you, Andreas. So, we have a number of questions here from from the audience and I'm going to again apologize in advance so we're not going to be able to get to all of them I'm going to start with this I'm going to direct it to you, Alan. A question about how do we protect vulnerable communities and individuals when their data are accessible through open data initiatives and corrupt individuals can now approach them to achieve their own objectives. Thank you that's an excellent question so we we grapple with that now in Liberia, even outside of open data. And I think one of the keys is community awareness and capacity. It's your job or our job as the government to really help our citizens to understand their full bundle of rights, if you will, and that includes the right to have your land, the right to use your land, how to transact your land to your best benefit or the benefit of your community. So I think that's a key is capacity building and awareness with your community on what this land means and how you protected. I also think that protection mechanisms are very important. You may have open data. How do you stop people from fraudulent transactions, etc, is just because of that reason, have the data accessible have the data so that anyone who tries to manipulate that can have their safeguards in place. So I think that the key is one, it's a partnership, you definitely are working with your community, and you must have these safeguards in place to protect the interest of the, of the most vulnerable. And as I said before, fit for purpose and fit for context, you have to have various technologies in place so that the most vulnerable the least can access their data and have some protection in place. Oh, yes, great answer to the question. Thank you, Ellen. I'll add a question I'm going to direct to you from from the audience that the question is, which are the international institutions that are useful in prosecuting land corruption, even if by municipal governments or national governments. Thank you for the question. Well, one of the interesting things that we've seen recently in the anti corruption world is the development of extracurricular territorial legislation, such as the UK bribery act and the foreign corrupt practices act in the United States. So there are legal mechanisms in some OECD countries that can prosecute corruption, regardless of where the corruption takes place, if there is some form of linkage to, for example, the US stock exchange if a company for example abroad is listed on the US stock exchange so those are mechanisms that I would point to even if corruption in land is not possible to be prosecuted within a particular country. And I would say that there has been enormous progress in prosecuting corruption in some countries in the global south. The, the Indonesian anti corruption Commission again is an example they have prosecuted at the DG level of government at the provincial governor level. I have done a review of the past 10 years of forest sector corruption cases prosecuted by the KPG, which shows some very interesting patterns and lessons. However, there is a constant pressure on these types of organizations to from political level to maintain the space and support for what they're doing. And this is a very important thing to keep an eye on the political economy of the political pressure which is placed on prosecutor prosecutorial authorities and corruption cases. Thank you, Alan. Let's see going on to another question I think I'll, well let me read the question first so money laundering through land is a major issue in Brazil. How can open data help in this context and are there any concrete experiences from the from the panelists. Anyone want to volunteer to hand to to feel this, if not all. Maybe I can, I can start at least. So for the report I've put together. I've read an amazing report about. I wrote something like does corrupt does corruption leads next door, which was about Sao Paulo in Brazil. And they were using land records property records to identify and quantify problems also related to money laundering and transparent transactions in the real estate market and so on. So I think there's already that would be a very good point to start for somebody who would be interested in Brazil specifically. And perhaps to that I would just add that it's important to also look at historical data that is able to show for example changing patterns of land ownership and use that to can help us highlight risks related to to money laundering and corruption. Okay, anyone else want to jump in on that one. Okay. Okay, there's a question here about the Indonesian one map. It, the question says the Indonesia one map project fails to include any information about the extent of customary and informal land rights or even the locations of local villages. Does this not greatly hinder its value in resolving land conflicts. So I think. Maybe this is for Alan. Yeah, I think that's that assumption is correct. The, as I said in my earlier remarks, the, the lantern your situation and land insecurity is very complex and difficult in Indonesia many overlapping claims many ancestral claims which are not resolved not formally to recognize people without papers with without recognition of their formal rights. And I think that does point that does complicate the anti corruption potential of the one map on data policy and indeed any, any type of one data in land. Any type of open data and land in from an anti corruption point of view. And I think that one of the things that makes me think about really is the, the process of data collection and validation and the manner in which it is made available to to the public in different stakeholders is of course crucial. And there can be rights violations in the process of data collection for this type of initiative so where there is unclear or unresolved conflicts around land tenure and that hasn't been legally clarified. That can lead to a situation where those rights are not being recognized through the process of data collection for such initiatives and in my ethnographic field work in Central Sulawesi in 2017. I came up against some some examples of this in in the way that free prior and informed consent processes are used and actually practiced in certain regions of Indonesia so even though we may feel that we have safeguards in place for and protocols in place. The way that these are working depends of course upon state society interactions historic practices of bureaucratic violence for example. So there are many, many things to consider and I think that's why we need a lot more research on on this issue and try to understand how this type of initiative can be implemented to the best effect and in the safest possible way. Thank you, Alan for giving us that very kind of specific context in kind of highlighting what what some of the risks or enabling conditions. And speaking of those enabling conditions so the report highlighted that there's a long chain of actions and reactions that's required to move from open data to transparency to do actual anti corruption impact. So there's a question about which of the elements of that chains of actions and reactions. Do you think are most relevant. And if any of our panelists or Martello want to take on that question. Let's start again. I don't think there is one kind of key aspect that is more important than than other and that's because I think a lot of the impact of open data on on land corruption is context specific. So in some context we might have a profound lack of a legal framework, and that clearly is a problem in other places the real bottleneck might be technical or a know bottleneck. I think it depends from different context. But I, and, you know, the strategic thing is to understand in each context, given the objective and the aim of each initiative. So what is the key aspect that we need to address in this sense what is the key enabling condition that we need to look at. Thank you much hello anyone else want to want to respond to that question on you please. Perhaps I would just add something that I think we haven't talked about as much. I think that the enabling environment that has to do with accountability mechanisms. So, to, you know, thinking about having these governance models that are fit for purpose fit for context. We're building those capabilities, strengthening the legal and institutional capacities. We don't have with that, you know, a way for keeping those empowering check. Then the safeguards will will become meaningless and maybe a few of those that ideas that are being circulated. Currently in the data governance base are include also having strong purpose limitations, thinking back to because these issues are so context specific. If we can think about strengthening the purpose limitations around how data is collected and use it can really help us focus in terms of the particular benefits and risks in regards to land and use of data to come up lag corruption. Thank you on you. Yeah, a very important point. We have another question here. It's about the ethical considerations of open data on land and the question is often says often at least in the Colombian context land distribution is the root of grievances fueling conflict. What safeguards and consideration should we have when opening and publishing this kind of sensitive information. Andreas may I think it's crucial. I think safeguards were mentioned already in the discussion. I think we often see that in land registration approaches, the, you know, the modernization in the sense of individualization of land rights doesn't necessarily work to the advantage of the poor. Or to to traditional to traditional systems or collective systems. And sometimes you have a mix. So I believe it's it's crucial to decide in the country context how you go about it. What is what should be shared what should maybe not be shared and how you make your. I mean your your open data strategy that somehow linked also to to to your land. What is the generalization or whatever strategy you have whether it's a planning process or whether it's really a titling process. It's it's linked to it in a way. And the safeguards are crucial and especially I think we should talk about how a woman benefit, especially the Colombian context is a you have a you have a piece you have a piece building context in other regions in the world and I think you know most about this in the West African context, but also other contexts also women are are crucial target groups in what we do and and making sure that you build safeguards that that enable also women and other disadvantaged groups, ethnic minorities, but also in in in contracts like in the Colombian context where you have a history of Civil War, etc. Benefit from these from the systems and I don't think I don't have an answer to that, but we have to be very careful when we devise such interventions. Thank you Andreas Ellen, I'm going to ask you about this that I mean we haven't talked about the gender component this this important topic. Andreas just raised it. Yeah, would you like to comment on on that. Thank you so I think for a country like Liberia that has a very patrilineal system of land transfer inheritance, protecting the rights of women is crucial. I think one of the ways that we're addressing it here is one at the land authority, we have a gender office, and that gender office is tasked with really looking at how gender is mainstream throughout the land reform process. And with that office you now take these different ideas, and you make it part of your work. We've just recently developed a gender integration strategy. And that strategy is a living document, and as more evidence is available as these new ideas come about, you infuse that into your strategy because at the end of the day, you want to ensure that you protect the rights of women, especially for a country like Liberia where women have been marginalized throughout the land reform process for the last 170 years. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it would. We wouldn't be doing this topic or any topic related to land service without highlighting the gender aspects of it. There's a question from the audience about the specifics of what what kind of corrupt practices specifically are prevented or mitigated with with open data. Alan, do you want to have take a crack at that one. I suppose the simple answer is either many or none. I think what we're discussing is the the the effectiveness and the preconditions for the effectiveness of of addressing corruption and some of the research done at my Institute over the past few years has talked about the notion of policy change and policy initiatives as theater. So the idea that there is an initiative which is taken up and taken taken on board but there is real no real will to actually implement it and to actually achieve the way to achieve the things which are intended. So that is a real risk for this type of initiative. At the same time as if these preconditions, some of these preconditions can be met and some of these challenges can be can be addressed then that could well be potential to address many kinds of corruption. But I think that there is a in corruption research, a trend to look at the political settlement. When we talk about a regulatory or bureaucratic response or institutional response to corruption. The, that is usually the effect of that is usually conditioned by the political settlement. And if the political settlement is conducive, and there are elites who actually support something to be effective and to resolve some of these issues that we've talked about today, then the chances of success are potentially quite great. But how these things relate to each other I think we have to look at specific contexts in each case. Thank you. I can sit here for the rest of the day and and ask you questions and listen to this has been a great learning experience for me and such rich experience and expertise among our panelists, but we are getting close to the end of our time so I want to and and again apologize to the audience for not being able to get to all of the questions. I want to start our closing here by asking each of our speakers, just in 60 seconds I know that's a tough task but in 60 seconds kind of some final thoughts, lessons, words of advice for for our audience. And Helen, let me start with you again. Thank you Tim. 60 seconds. I think fit for purpose and fit for context solutions should be very at the top of our priority list. I think that participation, and really hearing the voices of the vulnerable in our women. I think that these solutions are key understanding who you're trying to to protect and putting in place those safeguards and those mechanisms that will achieve that purpose are going to be very important. I think the political will has to be key, followed by these legal and institutional frameworks that will govern your work. So thank you for the opportunity to participate. And it's so great to know that there are are people with your experience and expertise in the positions that you have so thank you and thank you for joining us today. Anya you next please. I mean I would echo everything Ellen has said I think these fit for purpose fit for context that thinking of power dynamics have have struck a chord throughout the our conversations. I perhaps should add also you know we need to do more work to think about, you know, what are the data that can potentially lead to impact. We know that not all data must be opened by default, but I think we do need to engage more with communities of users to define high value land governance data for systems and for people to be open data ready and then better understand how to create the conditions under which marginalized and disadvantaged groups are empowered through accessing this this data to seek justice and address corruption. Thank you Anya. Marcello I'm going to you next. Yeah, I think a couple of key points the first one is that I think much of the literature and the talks I had with people. They tend to make the mistake of looking at this problem as if it was a dualistic type of problem a black and white type of problem. But we learned there is much more nuance than that so it's not for instance digital versus not non digital solutions, because there are blended approach where we where you can use drone mapping. Participatory community mapping purposes so there are wonderful examples of how to bridge the digital divide by making the disinformation accessible. We need to create space that's crucial for me for people to meet with data and data to meet with people because that is the interaction then therefore brings about change. And finally, the very last point is that open data transparency are in my view necessary but not sufficient condition to stop corruption. So, while we can acknowledge that open data alone might not work. I think it's very hard to picture a land corruption free word where there is no free flow of information and data, at least to some extent. And that's it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you much. Last thoughts. Thank you, Tim. So, the motto of my university where I'm doing my PhD is knowledge is power, and I think that resonates a little bit with this, this, this discussion that on the one hand, open data holds a lot of potential and power to really open up governance and to enable the questioning of different policy decisions and, and kind of a healthy discussion within societies in terms of different choices that are made at the same time as it does also place vulnerable individuals and groups, potentially in a in an even more vulnerable situation if that information is used against them in some way. So I think that that is the reflection I think I had from this discussion is that there's very much a potential for this to go in different directions, and that some further work is needed to really make sure that open data can bring benefits rather than to make situations worse. Thank you. Knowledge is power. Andreas, last word for you before we close. Thank you, Tim. Well, very difficult to, to wrap this up here, but maybe two points. The first point is, and it builds on what was said on context specific and fit for purpose, maybe we can think about a continuum of, of open data approach is similar to glt ends model on the continuum of land rights where you move from a very simple to a very sophisticated so from, you know, from, from, from the sort of the beginners level to the expert level. And at the same time, you could then think about the different sort of the, you can factor in the different entities that you have in the context and work with a different kind of data. I think we talked about a lot about ownership data, but there's other other other other kind of data that might that might be important. So, that would be my first point. And the second point is, I think, well, talking about anti corruption doesn't often, you know, sit well with policymakers, I don't think a lot of people would like to engage in discussions about anti corruption. It's, let's say it's sensitive to say the least. So we have to think about how to create benefit stories and how to bring this into the policy discussion, what benefits we actually gain from open data and this might help us in furthering our costs and sort of, you know, getting buy in an ownership of our partners to engage in open data strategies in the future. Back to you, Tim. Thank you, Andreas. And thank you to all of the speakers. If we were all together in one space, there would be a lot of applause and I just, I thank you all for taking the time and sharing your experience and expertise. Just in closing, very quickly, I want to remind you that the land portal will be publishing a series of interviews on open data and land corruption in the coming days and weeks. There's already the links been posted in the Zoom chat. Also, the report itself will be featured on the same page. We encourage you to discover those perspectives, dig into the report. The land portal also is collaborating with a global data barometer to create an open guide for governments on how best to open up their land related data. Again, go to the land portal, you get more information about that. And finally, I want to draw your attention to another webinar that the land portal is holding on February 18 on rolling back social and environmental safeguards in the name of COVID-19. And that'll feature Indigenous leaders from around the world. So see the link in the chat. Visit the land portal. Thank you, land portal for sponsoring this. Thank you, GIZ for sponsoring the study and all your support for this topic. And a final thank you to the speakers and to our audience. Have a good day, everyone. Bye-bye.