 How to choose a record producer for a rock band. You would think this would be one of those really easy subjects and a lot of people don't think there's much to this. But as you're going to hear in this episode, there's a lot more to it and a lot of thoughts that you probably haven't thought about. So what this is, is this is a discussion with my friend and business partner in the company Noise Creators that we used to have, Johnny Minardi. Johnny is now the senior vice president of A&R at Atlantic Lecture Records and fueled by Rahman. And he works with huge, huge groups like Grandson, Tones and I, and all sorts of these other monumentally huge groups. So Johnny also though has been a producer manager with his company Self-Titled Management. So this podcast is actually three years old. But the funny thing is, is somebody told me they listened to it the other day and they're like, this was was totally fresh and they couldn't believe it was three years old and I listened and I was like, yeah, this is all evergreen advice and it hasn't changed at all. So the long and short of it is I wanted to make sure it got the attention it deserves in this feed because when anytime you could find something that's that timeless, I think it's a good idea to re-up it. So I decided to make this little intro and I'm going to play it after. It's nice and short and I think you'll enjoy it a lot. So I'm here today with Johnny Minardi. Johnny, how are you doing? You're doing great. How are you, my friend? I am all good. So we wanted to do this podcast because we've noticed after a year of doing Noise Creators that almost all the time we're seeing people with huge, huge misconceptions about booking producers, even if somebody knows 90%, the 10% they don't know could sometimes make a huge difference in how they plan and how well their record comes out. So we wanted to do something that really informed everybody about this. In this podcast, to run down what we're going to go through so that you know as you listen to this what you can expect, we're going to talk about how you choose a producer. We're going to talk about looking at their body of work, about how a producer and mixer fills in the blanks of a band, what to look for in their credits, how much time do you take a book, a producer? Do you do it by song or by day? Could a producer come to you and do just as a good job at their studio? Should you do big blocks of time or should you just keep coming back every few weeks? Do you need to be there to mixer master? What's up with test mixes and how do they make a record better? Same thing with test masters. We're going to talk about deposits, producer points, and a whole bunch of other things. So we hope you stick around and listen to this. To get started, why don't we talk about how you choose a producer since that's the biggest thing we do. Let's talk about budget. One of the things I think you and I see all the time is that bands get used to the fact that some kid with a laptop in his parents' basement charges a bunch of money and they go, Oh my God, well, I'll never be able to produce to go to a producer who's big. What they don't realize is that those kids once they get a computer feel entitled to charge as much as a big producer a lot of the times. So let's get into a little bit of that. Yeah, I think that like you said in a little bit of the opening is that there's the misconception of always waiting to the next record or we would have reached out earlier, but we didn't think we could afford so and so. And that's not to undermine what the prices are. But like you're saying, you know, the local guys down the street are charging just as much. And I've seen so many producer meetings go, well, hey, I would have worked with you, but I didn't think I could have afforded you even for an extra couple thousand bucks. I could have had the guy that produced my favorite record. Damn, you know, and it's like, that's something that I feel like, again, you always have to set what you're comfortable with spending. But at the same time, it's always worth a conversation of, Hey, we love, we sound like this, we love records like this. Who can you suggest that's within our range? And in many of times, like we'll come back and say like, here's all these guys. And just so you know, here's a little bit more info on other guys that, you know, have done records in that genre that are a little bit more than that or whatever. And I think that those suggestions kind of go a long way. Yeah. And like, I think one of the funny things we've seen is it's like, it is that thing of like, you know, this guy is going to be $1,000 more to do your record. There's five of you, which means you each of you come up with $200 more and you have a guy who literally worked on the majority of your favorite records versus the guy in parents' basement who yells at you and doesn't do that great work. And like that can make a huge difference in how many people hear your music and how happy you are with your music. Right. Yep. I think that in the next important thing that we see a lot of the time is people don't know how to decipher credits. So let's go through what a credit can mean. So the thing I always like to say with producers is that they could do a lot or a little like there's sometimes the best producer with a band who is really knows exactly what they want. They kind of just stay out of the way. Then there's also these producers who know so much they're going to write harmonies, help you shape your songs and all this stuff. And there's so much in between there. So one of the things I think that, you know, we've been trying to do when we help bands find the right fit is we try to figure out what they need in filling in their blanks. Can you talk a little bit about what you see in the differences between producers most of the time? Yeah. And it kind of goes back to what you were saying about the guy with the laptop versus the guy with, you know, 50 big records or something in all the in between. And it's, you know, a lot of guys start off as assistants or, you know, they're in the room with the producer making certain records. And then they kind of graduate and start to do a couple on their own. And then you kind of see them get into it fully on their own. You know, and that's not to downplay the assistant one because that's all dependent on how fast that person learns or, you know, you might be that first record that they fully produce on their own. But, you know, that usually comes with different budgets. So if your budget's a little restricted, getting that guy that's worked on, you know, assisted on 10 of your favorite records, you know, it goes, Oh, hey, we'd love to kind of take the opportunity to see if you were interested in doing it all on your own, you know, and you kind of start that world for that person. You know, I think it's there's a lot of that. And I think a conversation is always a good place to start with it because you don't know what they assisted on. You don't know if they assisted for three days of two of two months worth of recording, you know. So I think a lot of it is just learning more about that, you know, whether it be even just listening back through some of the podcasts we've done already. I think that a lot of guys touch on how they work and how they got their start and how they operate now. So I think it's just a lot of research and or reaching out for a conversation. And, you know, if there's something specific or if it's something general, you know, there's, there's always a way to to feel more confident with your decision is the important part. I like that. I think that another thing you touch is yeah, every podcast we do, I ask how much a producer likes to get involved in the song writing. And everybody does have a different answer for that. I mean, the most common answer is just they dip their toe in but not too much. But there's always differences. I think you also make a great point about the assistants is like, I was somebody who, you know, I've assisted on huge, huge records. I've assisted tons of records. And it's that thing of like on some of them, it was like literally I was the guy who read the computer and plugged a few things in and then on some of them, it's like the producers out getting drunk and I'm running the session and you kind of thing, right? You kind of never know until you talk to them and you see a body of work and you see consistently good work and the things that they're in charge of as well as what they've assisted it on. And I think that that's an important thing. That's it. Yeah, no, that's a better way to wrap it up. And again, I think it starts and ends with a conversation because that's, that's the way to find out. So let's talk about then. So engineers usually are just in charge of tones. Now that doesn't always mean that everybody was an engineer credit, didn't help do some production because sometimes it's all a team and sometimes it's a thing, but this is also something you have to do investigative work on. So then there becomes the complicated thing of like mixers and mastering as well, because this is all a part of the sound and each one of them can have a part. Now, as somebody who does a lot of mastering, I will say this that mastering is the equivalent of that. Yes, you can make it sound better, but if it sounds terrible, there's no mastering engineer in the world who can make it sound like the best sounding record on earth, but a mixer can really, really revive some bad engineering. So you never know if the engineer slacked off and the mixer saved them, or the engineer was great and the mixer did that. You don't know unless you look at a body of work. So let's actually go back to this filling in the blanks thing about how each producer is a little bit different from one another. Each time one of the things I always think is important for bands to figure out and we like to figure out with them is really the expectation of what the producer dash mixer dash mastering engineer will do. Like one of the things that we're very adamant about is that when we give you a rate for a mixer and mastering engineer is that there is changes left in there for you to give some feedback and that you can have a say. One of the things I think we see is bands are kind of afraid to ask about how much input they can give when we think that they should be feel very open that their name is much larger in font than the producers. Sure. Yeah, I think again, that's kind of like finding that comfortable confidence of, you know, learning how many revisions or how nitpicky they can be. I mean, and I think we've seen the whole scale of it, like some sometimes bands are stoked on the first mix and don't say a word. And sometimes bands need a couple of rounds and they're very like, you know, we really have a vision for the snare to be doing this. Can you please try to help that? You know, and very specific. So I think, you know, it's finding that conversation and like again, everyone on the site is very much like in the wheelhouse of you and I having the utmost confidence in them being the people that can be a two way street and have that conversation without being, you know, some of the horror stories we've heard of like, no, you've already got your revisions move on, you know, and that's not at all how we operate. And that was an important thing that when we were vetting everybody to be on the site, we wanted to make sure that people were professional and did feel that way. You know, I have heard those horror stories and I've had to mix records for the people who, you know, it's like they say, well, you hired me to mix it and that's how I mixed it. Yeah. And you're like, oh, that's not okay. Yeah. So then they got to pay a second mixer to come in and actually remix it the way they wanted it. Yes. And so one of the other things that we pay attention to too is that, you know, everybody has that different level of songwriting that they want the producer to be involved in or even these days, some people think in the mix that the mixer is going to be adding keyboard parts and sub hits and string arrangements. And we try to discuss with you the truth about whether that mixer is up for that and then what that's going to cost because that costs a lot more than just mixing what they're given as composed to then writing on top of it. Absolutely. And I think that that's, you know, involved in the early conversation to be like, okay, what is your expectation? Is it strictly a mix master or is the is the mixer supposed to be reamping because we get those surprises after and, you know, we try to find a cordial way to be fair and have both sides understand what the expectation is. So price it accordingly. So no one feels like basically the whole thing is like trying to make all of that be public and transparent so that everyone feels like they're getting a fair shake, whether it be the producer getting paid and putting in the time or it's the band that's actually coming up with the money that is wanting, you know, their goal. So I just feel like that that it's a conversation again, much like everything, I feel like that's the reoccurring theme. And that's something that, you know, you should reach out about if it is, if you don't know what you need. And you just say like, this is what my current stuff sounds like. And I want it to sound like that, you know, then we fill in the blanks there. Yeah, I think that's an interesting thing is that we can do, you know, you can hire people for pre production, right? And like, so the other thing with that is we've been doing tons of test mixing and test mastering. Do you want to explain that to everybody? Yeah, it's an interesting process. And I actually learned it when I was in our because I didn't know that stuff like this existed. And people would reach out and say, like, Hey, let me get a shot at mixing the next record by this band. And I'd be like, Oh, interesting, like that's, you know, and we would send it to a couple different people and pick the best one. And then it was always like, Well, that's cool. You should why don't people do that all the time if they have the time or the budget for it? You know, so what we've done recently to use some examples is someone's reached out and said, Hey, we've got a five song EP. This is our budget. Within our budget, we'd like to hear who you would suggest to mix it. And, you know, we've gone back and just said like, Hey, why don't we send it out to a couple, give you a little example of what's going on. And here's some people that I think would be interested and good for you and your genre. And say they're all within your budget. And again, here's a couple people above your budget, if you wanted to hear what they want to do, take it to a bunch of producers and send you unmarked song titles to where you literally don't know who mixed it. So you're taking it and saying, Wow, here's these four mixes, like B and D are my favorites. Like, I, you know, this is great, like give maybe give notes on one or be like, Okay, this person totally gets what we're going for. We're going to proceed with that, you know, and you don't even know who it is yet. And then we come to you and say like, Hey, this was so and so, but it's almost like putting the song first and not the credits or not the, you know, Oh, this is the only guy we could afford. We better just go with them. And it's saying here's examples of different ones and they come out very different, you know, so it's almost cool to hear your song a few different ways. Like I said, we do that with mastering as well now too, which is very cool, because a lot of people don't even know there are differences in mastering in a way. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like one of the real interesting things we see with it is that it really is that thing of like mostly with mixing is you can really see how much different somebody would imagine it. It's usually so different with them, what the artist ever thought it was going to be like the reactions are just so intense of that, you know, you've been hearing it with one person's perspective on this and then hearing it. And then even sometimes hearing the way other people thought of the song is something you sometimes use to reshape what the with the mixer that you actually did and use it. It's like that thing of like, Oh, I didn't realize that if the vocal has that reverb on it, that's actually something I'm really into. And you hear all this potential and you get it. Whereas with the mastering, I think so many times it's so hard for people to hear what the difference in mastering can be. But then when you have a few of them laid out in front of you, like, Oh, these are my choices. One so obviously feels right for what your tastes are. Right? Yeah. And you could even like, you kind of touched on your hearing it one way, hoping it sounds like this. I mean, you could send list of references that you're like, I love Bleed American, I love this, I love whatever it is, and help kind of guide someone. But at the same time, it's really cool when they have their fingerprints all over it. And you might not like that. And you might find one that you do really like, and you go that way. And it's just like you said, it's kind of suggesting things you didn't even know were available. Yeah. And I think like one of the other things that we should stress here is that one of the nice things we have is that you can do this in two different ways is that some of our guys to do test mixes are going to need money to do a test, but some of them are looking to get into the game and get better projects. So they're going to do these for free for you. And you're going to have to pay for the person you choose to do the mix, you have to pay to use that mix. And you're not, you're going to probably get a little bit of time chopped out of the mix. So you're not going to be able to just use that one and run or anything. But you get free perspective on this if you have it. And if you want better perspective, you have a budget, you can get tons of perspectives from some really, really big popular mixers in the game. Right. And especially, yeah, you might get lucky at a certain timeframe. If one of the bigger dudes is looking for work and had a cancellation and your song sounds like something that we send to them, then they might even jump on board with it and say, you know, yeah, I'll take a little bit of a reduction this fan school, you know, so you never really know till you reach out. We've seen that happen. Yes, absolutely. How much time does it take to make a song? And this one is always dependent on so many things, you know, a fast punk band trying to do like an alkaline trio from here to infirmary, you know, they can do a record in five to seven days. Whereas, you know, five to seven days to doing a full length record for a rise core THX core band is never going to happen. Not going to happen. What advice do you have for bands trying to figure out how much time it's going to take them to make a record? You know, it's I think certain producers kind of have their blueprint depending on style. And they when it's when it's a discussion of, okay, this is the kind of band you work on what you just said is, you know, then they'll come back with their okay, this is what I propose a timeline would look like. So I think it's literally the comfortability of the producer because there's been many times a band has reached out and been like, we think we can record 12 songs in six days, like you're saying. And a lot of producers get shaky and go, I don't think I can work on this project because the expectation is going to be something that I'm going to have a hard time pulling off in six days. You know, and and other guys I've worked with have said, well, I actually need, you know, three to four days a song to be comfortable. And it's like, oh, okay, because, you know, I think it's both sides of it to where it's got to depend on the style like you're saying, because if it needs a lot of extra, you know, love or layers or keyboards or extra stuff, I think that that needs clearly needs more time than just that you're three piece band, you know. So it depends on the style depends on the producer. And again, I think that that's an easy thing to find out once you kind of just say, Hey, this is what we're trying, we're trying to accomplish five songs. Well, what should we a lot for that? I agree. So a lot of this is finding the fit. I think though you made a really good point that like is one of those things like when we're at the bar with the producer we're laughing is like, there's one thing that really scares the producers that the band says, we can do it in X amount of days. And I know a lot of people get, you know, really confident in their abilities and what they've done in the past. But what they don't realize is the reason that they like that producer's records is that producer usually has some methods at a time that makes the sounds that they get. And that's why you like what they're doing. And that's a great point. And saying that is kind of like saying to them, well, I'm going to impose my belief on your methods. And you're still going to have to deliver a result. And like that the second I read that personally, I'm like, Oh, man, this is good. Yeah, yeah, it's managing that expectation of like, Okay, I can do it in that. But it's not going to sound like the record you referenced and why they want to work with me. That's for sure. And I think there is a happy medium. Sometimes it's like, there's tons of producers who can do it in 25%. So I still do a killer job at the bands really prepared. And that's the other thing too is is like how prepared the band is, is going to be the greatest factor in that. And that's a good point. Because even whether it be just pre production in the studio or, Hey, we already have a Dropbox with the five songs in it. So you could even start with your ID, like you can, there's a way to work it out. But you know, the more work you put in on the band and the better off them, the more the less reluctant a producer would be, I guess, it is always that thing of there is if there's one thing that makes every producer happy, it's being prepared. But then walking that fine line that you don't have everything so set in stone that nothing can be changed. There's a fine balance between those two things. Right. So one of the things that we get a lot too is, should I record by with a rate for per song or rate per day, you manage tons of producers and obviously through the site, we deal with so many people. What is your insight on that one? When it goes by day, there's always that blurry, well, am I getting charged for mixing days when I'm not there? Or, you know, what happens if we don't finish a song in the amount of days I booked, then is it just incomplete or do I pay more? Like, I feel like when it's by song and there's a proposed schedule, there's a very clear, okay, this guy wants to do a song every two days. So five songs is 10 days. If we can't accomplish it in that song, clearly there's different circumstances with people getting sick or whatever it may be, but there's always a way to work out, you know, if you need to finish up after that or whatever, whatever the problem existed. But I always feel like it's pretty clear cut and the expectation that is set. Like, here's the amount per day per song. This is what it's going to look like. This is our schedule. And again, like, I think that if a producer, then expectations are managed where a producer knows like, okay, I only have 10 days with this band. I got to get it done. Whereas when it's by day, it's like, okay, I guess it could kind of be said the same way and flipped. But I always feel like when it's by day, it feels like it almost runs up and then you're racing the clock because you're basically saying I need it done by these days or else I get charged another $500 per day for the next three days, you know. And I'm not sure how you operate at the studio. But again, I've done both very often. I don't I guess I can't say that one is better. I think that again, it comes down to managing the expectation and being saying I'll do it by day. But if we don't finish, then it's another day, another day, you know, then it adds up. So and again, the mixing has to be clear because I've been recently had a band reach out and say like, well, hey, we paid X amount per day and our songs aren't mixed yet. It's like, well, they got to be mixed, right? Like, the day rate has to still the clock Steve keeps going that well, we didn't plan for that. It's like, well, shit, we maybe weren't too clear. But whatever it may be, like, it was a a buddy came to me and asked me that. So it was something I wasn't involved in and I just heard. And I was like, well, they got to get paid per day. He's like, well, they didn't say that up front. It's like, you didn't have the right conversation with that whoever is managing that producer, I'm not sure, you know, kind of goes that route. Yeah. And I think that that's like one of the things is it's talking through the expectations of what we're we're involved in the conversation, we know these things that we've been through them so many times, we know not to let a thing like that happen. I have the feeling that a lot of time it's like, you know, the by day by song can be a trap for the producer if it's going to be this constant thing of, well, I'm still writing in the studio and stuff like that, like that's not able to be a buy song thing. If you're going to be writing forever, if you don't even know all the parts you're going to do, that can work. A lot of time what I would I'll work out as well. And I know you do too is that it's like, it's buy song, but here's the cap of days. And if your singer gets sick because he's been out getting drunk every night and smoking cigarettes, that's going to be you paying by the day after that these days are exceeded. And having a structure in there that quotes both is usually the most effective way. Sure. Yeah. And again, maybe you're right, maybe it is something where it's like they both have the cap on them in a sense, but the expectation is you'll be able to accomplish something. But then there's days, there's additional days if needed, if you're lucky enough and that producer has holes in the schedule too. Yes. So another question we get asked a lot because people can always travel to where the ideal producer is. If you're in North Carolina and they're in Portland, Oregon, it may not be the easiest thing to do. What's been your experience with producers traveling to other studios? It's semi rare because obviously a lot of guys like to have their studio, but at the same time some guys have kind of a mobile rig or can say, okay, well, you're there. I know of a great studio there or a friend of mine made a record there. Why don't I talk to them about maybe I can rent out that studio? And it is easy for one person ideally to travel rather than five guys to drive across the country with all their gear and everything else. So I think that some guys are willing to do it. Some definitely aren't willing to do it. And it's a conversation to be had or even very recently I've had people travel for a couple records. It's actually I think becoming a little bit more affordable because I think when they do build, whether it be a mobile rig or rent out a different studio, you just have to be ready for that cost. Yes. This is something I do a lot. And what I tend to find is it's just like sometimes it is the thing that we are going to be able to, if we're looking at the budget, it is going to be infinitely cheaper for me to travel where the band is or do this somewhere else than what it is. Or my studio, you know, there's more than one of me who works at the studio. My studio's books, sometimes we need to go to another studio. And that I do think that most producers ideally want to work in their own space, but there can be total exceptions ever. Well, some of the guys we work with love to travel more than anything. They want to get out of their studio and have new awesome experiences. So I think this is another one of those just to ask if this is an idea that's on your mind. Some producers are going to be open to it. Some producers are not going to be open to it. Right. And I think that again goes back to the budgeting to where it's like, Hey, we only have X amount, but here's a scenario we dreamt up, you know, and it's like, Oh, actually, yeah, why don't we have that conversation and let a producer make a decision? Or, you know, you might get the wrong answer, but you might say you might be surprised and be like, Yeah, I'll come to San Diego for eight days, track your songs, then take them home to mix them, you know, and some people it's even the thing of like, it's like, I've done ones in the past where it's like the band has their own studio, but they're going to have to work their day jobs except the one guy. So we do drums at my place, and then I head down to their place for 10 days, record the guitars, vocals and bass, and then I come home and mix it and we do it just for so that because they have the home studio and their home studio is kind of actually ideal for that. And all is fine. We may bring an amp or a microphone from my place and a few preamps and then everything works out great. Yeah, that's awesome. So with that, we also kind of got into what it's like with these different schedules and accommodating them. Some bands get really scared that it's not going to be okay to just come in on say the weekends and work when they don't have to work or that they have to do 30 days in a row. What have you seen in what matters like that for producers? It depends on the producer and their schedule, obviously, because there's some guys that are like, well, if you take the weekends, then I can't do a record for 30 days straight, or whatever it may be. But for a certain band, for a certain time period, it is feasible. And even when you're doing a single and you come in for two days here and then you do another single in three weeks or whatever it is, there's always a way to fit it in. And some of the producers have cancellations that they're looking for projects like that, that they're like, well, crap, this whole record went away. I'm interested in doing however I have to do it for that band. I've seen it all the different ways. Some guys only like to work in big blocks, and then some guys are like, I'm flexible as hell, let's do it. Yeah, and if there's one conversation that I have with a lot of producers is that the one advantage to not doing big chunks is you get a little bit of objectivity and a little bit of perspective back and you can see the project for what it is when it's not a every day in a row thing. And then some people are like, no, I need to live it and it's going to eat me up and it's going to make me insane. And it's all what that producer feels like and how they scheduled their time. I do this really commonly because I have to bounce back between so many different things that I really like it. But I also know I have a friend or two who are like, that would make me insane because once I'm on a project, I can't stand to think about anything else. Yeah, that's true too. I mean, it is a personal preference. And I think some guys like to just be really in the trench for 14 days straight and go, okay, wow, now I'm taking my head up for some air. But like you said, it has its pros and cons, both ways. So our next question is one I think we're going to easily agree on, which is, do I need to be there for the mix or the master? And the answer is no. No. Yes. If there's one thing that every producer, mixer, master now seems to agree about is it's better if you're not there. In 98% of the cases, I'd say. Sure. And I think that a lot of bands think it's efficient to be there because they're like, well, I'm there. We could just make changes on the fly. But I don't think anyone, I mean, you writing a song, I don't think you'd want to produce her over your shoulder while you're sitting in practice space or whatever it may be early on, when they're really just getting their hands dirty. There's a certain level they want to take those mixes to before they even show you because you're going to critique it until it gets there anyways. So I think that you kind of just give them space. Very rarely, like you said, if you are under certain circumstances, sure, it's happened, I think most don't prefer it though. And you probably get more focused on that. So they're not feeling someone sweating on their back. Yeah, and that doesn't mean you don't come back for the changes. But I think the other real key thing, especially with mixes and mastering is, is that you're not used to how their control room sounds, how their speakers sound and all these things, and that it's so much better for you to be in your environment, listen back and give the notes. And it's one thing if you do want to come back to do specific things, like you have a whole array of how you want to cut up a vocal for a part or something like that. And you need to do that at some point. That's a totally different story. But the majority of the mixing and mastering, especially mastering seems to be done best by giving notes by you hearing what's most familiar on your system. Since the way recording works best is you making judgments on something you're familiar with, not on something that you've never heard before. Right. Yeah. Good way to put it. So let's get into some of the other tiny little things that people don't understand about booking a producer deposits. Yeah. I think generally most guys are either 33% or 50%. And that's just kind of make them be confident that your project is going to happen and that you need that to actually book time on their calendar because many a times there's bands that, oh, no, I'll get it to you next week. I'll get it to you next week and then go cold and run the other way. And then that producer is like, well, there goes the back end of March. And I passed on a couple of projects I wanted to do because I thought the span was coming. And each one of them is booked a certain time in advance. So putting that deposit down allows you to guarantee yourself that slot with that producer or mixer. Yes. And we should say, so that's usually 33% to 50% of the total budget for the record. That's an anticipated thing. It doesn't always mean the final bill will be that if you go over time or anything. But it's just to say, I'm going to hold the amount of time we agreed on to do this and it really helps because I've had, in the past 15 years, I've had two different drummers break their legs. And then without that deposit, it's like I could be out of business. It's like can't do the record with the drummers in a swing for the next six months. And bands break up, people have personal things happen. This is to ensure that happens is to just say you're serious about this. So with that, how long do people usually need to book in advance and give this deposit? Do you see on average? I would say a couple months, I would say two to four months, somewhere in there is there's a sweet spot. Again, there's differences with cancellations and, you know, other things and some guys are booked a year in advance. So but yeah, I think there's a good sweet spot right there. And even kind of depending on what the project is to if it's a one song mix, clearly, you know, that can get turned around a lot faster than recording 12 songs front, you know, front to back. Agreed. And yeah, that's about I think that you hit that eight weeks is the probably the most common and then it gets a little bit more as people are busy. The busier the guy, basically the longer it's going to be. So it's good to reach out as you're planning your record kind of as soon as possible to figure out if you're going to be able to get in with it. The earlier you start having this conversation to figure out, do I need to deposit eight weeks in advance or 16? That's a really big difference. Yep. Big time. Anybody missed the boat on that? So, Jai, you have one of the rarest qualifications in the business, which is that you are both an A&R man and a producer manager. So that means you actually understand points from both sides. Yes. No one, no one is more qualified than you to answer this question of exploiting points and what the hell that means. Because I know so many bands like, you know, that they they when I talk about the points in my contract, they don't know if that means I'm going to be coming to their in the night and stealing their baby's teeth from them or what it is a very it has become more widely accepted. But yes, for a while, it was very like you the people stopped calling you back when you asked for a couple points on their on their royalties there. But it is very much not a scary thing. It is only something that the producer makes money when you make money. It's never, you know, oh, we owe him extra money, even though we didn't sell any copies of this. When you're on a label, clearly you have a whole team of people that handle that for you. But when you're an independent band and a producer asks you for points, it is not a scary thing. It is very easily calculated. And depending on what sort of agreement or how many, you know, it is or how many records you sell and where you sell them and what you're being paid for, when you do your, you know, your back ends on whatever service you prefer to use. They give you those statements and they say you made X amount of dollars off these songs. And it's very easy to drill down on that a bit because I think that that could be something people get lost on is that when you go into tune core CD, baby, distro kit or whatever, you can make a report of how much you've sold at a certain sales marker. That's going to mean you owe this producer some points. Right. Yeah. So basically, a lot of points don't start until things are fully recouped. So you spent drill that drill down on that. Yeah. If you spent, if you spent 10 grand with this producer to make your record, you, you know, the first 10 grand basically goes to you, like you get that back. And then from there you start what if the agreement was four points on the producer side, if you're an independent band and putting it out yourself, that's literally 4% of the money you make. I guess it's always literally 4% of the money you make, but your portions are different if you're signed to a label and your royalty rate is 16% and then they get 4% of that. But yeah, it's basically if a point is a percent is the easiest way to describe and, you know, pull the curtain back on what it is. So if you make 10,000 back, then you're back to even. And then from there, every dollar that comes in that producer gets four cents. It's just as simple as that goes. And if you make a million bucks, then you're probably not going to care too much about paying that producer. But for some reason it is a very scary thing and like you said, a lot of people turn it around the other way and it's not. They only make money when you make money. And it should also be said to that the reason a producer is getting points is that oftentimes this is for a discounted rate that what they factored in is I'm going to charge what's called $1,000 a day just for fun because it's a round number even though most of our producers are nowhere near that much money a day. Just to make the math easy is that what they really would have been doing is they would have been charging $1,250 a day. But what they're saying is instead is I'm going to take a leap of faith on you and say, I'm going to defer this money, but you're going to pay me this because I'm going to do a good enough job. And my contributions to this are going to be good enough that you give this to me. And that really is as simple as points are. And I know that sometimes that seems scary unfair because we, you know, it's so easy to hear about the horror story of Mariah Carey being robbed of her rights in some book. But like in this day and age, the robber barons are not in the music business as much because they go to businesses where there's much more money to be made. If you're and they're they're not on our side either. That's exactly because we would not allow the robber baron to be there. And we've seen there is people we've decided to not go near because they've decided to do things like that. And because of that, anybody who's doing this, you're getting an honest, honest price on the points in a industry standard. Right. And it's agreed upon and understood on both ends that it's a fair shake and it's not feeling taken advantage of. That's again, the number one point of the entire site is to hopefully manage the expectations and everyone feel like they got what they expected. And they're very excited to move forward and ideally come back again. And we should also say this that, what would you say? It's like probably like even somewhere between 30 and 40% of the guys on our side don't take points? Yeah, I would say, yeah, it's a conversation to be had. It depends on again, if you need, hey, we're a little short, maybe some guys take it more points or if you say like, hey, really, you know, whatever it is. And I also want to say too, like some people don't, they want points just because they believe in the band and in the sense of like, oh, here's my rate, but I also do points because I, you know, I'm a part of this team, I'm a part of this project. You know, so some guys, it's on both ends. That's a great point. Thanks so much for watching. If you enjoyed this podcast, there's tons more like this that are about to come up on the end screen, or you can click a link in the description below to see more like it. As well, if you want to hear more like this in your favorite podcast app, just search noise creators and all of my podcasts are in that feed there. 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