 Hi, I'm Dr. Phil Percanti. I'm the director of the Army Research Laboratory and welcome to ARL, what we learned today This is a podcast where we talk with Army scientists and engineers About the science and technology that will modernize the United States Army and make our soldiers stronger and safer Today we're going to talk with Dr. Konstantinos Mitzingas. Did I get that right? Yes. Yeah, Dino for short. Dino is a mechanical engineer in our vehicle technology directorate and he's working on propulsion So Dino, welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much for having me. So Dino, how long have you been at ARL? Since 10th of December last year. Oh, so you're here. You're a newbie. Yes Where'd you go to school? You're virtually noir. Oh, it's a great school. Yeah, so what did you study there? I did mechanical engineering and my PhD thesis focused on laser diagnostics in highly turbulent flows So like a scramjet or gas turbine. You know about hypervelocity things Yeah. Yeah. Hypersonic. Hypersonics. Things like that. Flows though mostly. I focus like I said in predominantly gas turbines and some other Geometry combustors and the main idea was how we could utilize lasers to do a non-intrusive Tracking of radicals or combustion important species. So would you consider yourself a laser guy? I would consider myself more of a laser guy. Okay, so you're on the you're on the photonic sand more so than the Yes. Yeah, so so what are you working on now? So right now I'm working under one of the essential research programs and that's the the victor Which is the the versatile tactical power and propulsion and the subset of that which is in the development of the multi-fuel capable hybrid electric propulsion system So in the in that particular aspect I'm working on doing laser diagnostics again in high pressure temperature vessels or other engine environments To determine how well different C-tane number fuels and C-tane number is essentially the Ignition quality that a fuel has Work well. So what's the difference between a C-tane and an octane? So octane I think is more for gasoline right so it you normally want to always see both of them You want both a high octane and a high C-tane number and C-tane is just a an empirical formulation of all the properties that the fuel has And it's a similar test though to I'm gonna tax my knowledge of fuel. So we have JPA. Yes, and we have JB 5 Which is a better fuel? So JPA it is normally the better fuel which I guess in the army We also have it called as F 24. It's the same thing as JPA. Yeah, it's close. It's very close It's just probably a similar slightly different additive we had a change in name because we're army and we don't have jets or what So I'm not 100% sure about that But that's a very good question So which has a higher so JP 5 will have but even even within the JP 5 depending on which Distillery came from the C-tane number can vary we take a JP 5 which has almost every other Property virtually the same like you know viscosity and its density and everything else But its C-tane number is different and we're trying to see how that now Effects our engines so it's C-tane. So do you think you can make or develop an engine that is Flexible to C-tane. Is that the goal? Yes, the idea is since C-tane number seems to be a predominantly a good Empirical formulation of how well a fuel will burn in an engine And we haven't found anything better right now But we're also trying to work in other technologies to see is there a better way of detecting a different fuel property that will help us help Tell us in line in the field. I'm putting this random fuel in What is that fuel and then optimize my engine so it runs on that fuel? right, so But the main goal is that is to develop an at least an engine or a way that we can control the engine or change the controls to Fit the particular fuel that is being put in the engine without the soldier Caring what fuel he's putting in the engine right so any they could scavenge any fuel on the battlefield in the end Yes, like the the far goal is to scavenge, you know, even put whatever fuel or alcohols like go down to your You know drugstore buy some vodka pour it in the engine and it will be able to run That would be interesting where we would actually pour the vodka would it be into the engine or into somebody? You can do both right it's like cooking but alcohol is a very clean burning fuel, right? Isn't it? Yeah, so there it's actually the problem with alcohol is that it's a very low CT Yeah, so that's the the low and that's the problem one of the one of the fuels that we're looking is Alcohol derived jet fuels, okay, right the alcohol to jet fuel process and that has a CT number in the 15 to 20 range which is low compared to JPA, which is like in the 4550 range So what what would be the highest? Fuel what what fuel would have the highest CT number the one that I've I've seen is JPA that we use right now Yeah, the JPA is full of sulfur, right? So that is yeah, that's another big problem is you have to desulfur a lot of these fuels before you put them in the engines So is that would that be a problem on the battlefield? Well sulfur yes, but that means that that would be a separate issue to the engine, right? So we would have to have a separate unit that would you put in whatever it takes all the sulfur out And then put you have to do that first Yes, unless it's a dirty little secret Yeah, but But you know, I can always envision an engine that would be able to take in and be more resistant to the sulfur effects But that's not as near term as what we're thinking what we're thinking is at least developing Within the next like five to ten years an engine that can burn CT 15 to CT 50 that's great Yeah, and in the future we could have like a mr. Fusion type device right that you're just take whatever you want garbage Throw it in and it runs, but that's like maybe in like 50 60. Okay. Well, that's good. That's a good goal to get to right So your your technology your research is directly applicable to Yes, what the army needs you think? Well, I'm doing more of the fundamental type research right now So one of the aspects that I'm focusing on is like I said taking these fuels we run them through the engine We run them through our our temperature and high temperature vessels or engine vessels and We shine lasers at them and then we observe the radicals that are important combustion and then we're able to quantify what's the Ignition quality how well does it ignite? When does it ignite and then the idea is to take all these values and create a Map or a model that we'd be able to use and be like, okay This is the model that our engine will use so then once we are able to detect what fuel we use We'll be able to run anything. Yeah, but even though your research is fundamental I think these are very these are burning up pardon the pun burning open questions, right about Of course what has to be done to to bring any fuel to the battlefield field and make it useful for your army? Yes, yes, I mean it will definitely reduce the resupply logistical issues that exists right, so there's a real connection to fundamental research and New capability for the army. These are these open questions that we have Articulated in our essential research programs, right? Yes, so for you I'm sure there is a burning open question in the ERP That Mike Juan the program manager for the ERP is asking you to solve, right? What is the primary question is to figure out? Okay, what are property at controls and configurations of an engine that would allow it to burn all these different fuels? So within that subset that means now we have to figure out how does each fuel burn, right? What are the differences between the fuels and then obviously we started with a narrow sub range, right? We're targeting the 15 to 50 city number Because once once we learn how that works then we can start expanding that range to all all sorts of other fuels Very good. Did you do any postdoc here? So I did not do a postdoc. I was I was under the pathways program. Okay. Yeah, so once my a little bit about that Just so people know what the pathways so so the pathways program is a very good opportunity that the army provides where They pick up a student or they work with a student and they sponsor They give the stipend to the student as well as a tuition waiver with the university And then I'm able to work as a as a federal employee actually under the pathways program part-time throughout my PhD career. I I actually joined a 2010 as a contractor first so hired through the university and then I was converted through all the different programs That was it was step first then it was converted to something else from Oak Ridge And then it was made into the pathways program The biggest advantage though is is that after the after your you finish your your schooling Then you can get converted to a full-time employee, which you can elect to do that if you want to All right, right. Well, I think that's a great deal for anybody So for sure wonderful and particularly if it aligns with what you want to do The research you want to do in the career path you want to take so that that's awesome So you like what you're doing of course excited by what you're doing who wouldn't like to shoot lasers and flames There's nothing like science Yes Have you had a chance to talk to any soldiers? So the only soldier of interactive with is Colonel Ryan Which we had the three-minute thesis that we did. Oh, yeah, so I'm doing that next week also That sounds like fun. Yeah. Yeah. It was it was really fun. He actually gave us very very good comments He prepped you he gave you feedback already. Yeah. Yeah. He was more like He's like, what do you think about that? I'm like, oh, that's a that's an application that I hadn't thought about that that might not be again It might be a long term, you know into 30 years into the future, but that would be a very interesting thing to do Yeah, so we're hitting on a few things that people probably don't know about that most people may not know about Pathways and the three-minute thesis is something we just started. Yes So can you tell tell us a little bit about what it is? So the the three-minute thesis started in more of the collegiate level as a competition between students to present their Research to a panel of people and then they're great. It's it's almost like an elevator peach. It's just a longer elevator pitch So what we're doing here is we're doing something similar with our researchers in the different departments And we're gonna have a competition which is gonna be judged by the soldiers to determine I guess which research or how the research is presented. They like more or which programs Yeah, so and also we're gonna give out prizes. So under my director's initiative We're gonna give $50,000 to the first place. I guess I think it's 25k for the second and 15k for the third and those prizes you can use to support your ongoing research It's not doesn't have to be for new research. It can be for whatever. So Anything you want to ask me? So, I mean it's a great opportunity talking with you like I said I didn't think that would happen within six months of starting So like the main thing that I like about the army predominantly and I don't know if that's a question or more like what I'm realizing is as a student our research is very very very fundamental and That means that normally we're not gonna see an effect of what we do and like Unless someone else takes it and makes an application or it's like a hundred years in the future What I've liked from what I've seen here is I've had the opportunity to work on projects That have an effect in the five-year term, but also in the like 30 to 40 year term So you get the best of both worlds, right? And then that's a is that something I guess that you plan for yeah Well, here's the thing so people I think many people in your position feel similarly, right? You know my research is long term How can I ever achieve what you're asking from a an army point of view from a capability point of view? And you're also asking us to do to look in the near term and there's something of attention between Near and far so and it's a bit confusing to people, right? So so how do you de-conflict that well? Well, here's what I say So yes your research is long term ultimately it will take many many years for the things you you've described to actually be fielded But the things you learn today The open questions that you answer today are extraordinarily valuable today Because they're helping Set the stage for the army for the future. So the army right now. We're in the middle of this thing Called multi-domain operations, which is the new army warfighting concept And what the soldiers are doing is they're trying to figure out what technology what capability Will be available in the future and then how to actually use those things to Determine war and if we have to go to war to be successful Those questions are all open science questions. So the things you answer today like is it really feasible? Based on what we know today About c-tane and jp8 and the ability to remove the sulfur. Is it really feasible to? Have an engine sometime in the future that can be multifuel capable And not to just be a futurist about it But to actually be scientifically driven to the answer and if we say We think so based on our research and we think so today that that will occur That's a contribution you're making right now Because it will affect the entire future of the army. That's extraordinarily important The other thing is As you do your experiments and you think about new ideas and new technology and maybe something that is near term You should you should say hey you should come and come and tell them. Hey dr. Brown. We got this thing We think we can get out of here get it out of the laboratory and get it to a company or get it somewhere else In the near term it's not something you're going to do because you're not going to do the engineering But maybe we we could take this idea partner with an engineering group and get it out sooner I'm a big supporter of that so that wouldn't necessarily be you but it would be your idea Your intellectual property that we would take out of the laboratory really really quickly So that's the intent is it's not so much to drive our staff to the to the near term But it's to get us to think about How we can take what we do today And and make it consumable for people who need it Either in ideas or perhaps even in technology, but again, we would put the engineering wrapper around that That's I view that as one of my jobs is to figure out how to take The science and the ideas that are coming out of laboratories and get the engineering Around it so we can get it accelerated. So that's that's the goal Yeah, and that's a very nice thing, especially since I'm learning now is uh, I'm doing a lot of uh, Corporate agreements with companies Because we're trying to figure out is like we have some technologies that um Like you mentioned where we're we're validating and verifying this is theoretically possible and is done in the lab scale Now is there anyone out there that would like to take this and make it into a consumable product? And I think that's a that's a really nice way to work at least because You can concurrently now be working on we have these components being worked by the company developing it as a consumable Well, we're improving the technology and theoretical background behind it Exactly you got it, you know It was really pleasure to meet you at some point. You can bring the use though I'll bring the anazette. We'll see which one we like better Uh, and you know, I wish you the best of luck and uh in what you do. Thank you very much for having me. It was a pleasure Well, thanks for joining us for ARL what we learned today in upcoming episodes We'll continue the discussion about the underpinning research that will build the army of the future Please consider listening liking and subscribing For the army research lab. I'm dr. Phil Percanti. Thanks for listening