 Hi, I'm Edwin Rutch and this is Dialogues on How to Build a Culture of Empathy and once again I'm here with Sam Beckman. Thanks again for joining me for this discussion, Sam. Thank you for having me here again. So this is I think our third, at least our third dialogue and the last time we talked we used the empathic listening process and so we wanted to do that again just go into reflective listening and empathic listening and see kind of follow up on our last discussion and talk about I think it was like you had a topic here. I think I came up with a few answers on how to co-op cold empathy to induce narcissists and psychopaths to play by the rules and so perhaps the topic is using cold empathy to induce social conformity and narcissists and psychopaths. So let me just start with reflecting what you want us to talk about then maybe what your experiences were from last time. So just to recap for those who haven't seen the previous dialogues cold empathy is exactly like normal healthy empathy but without the emotional component it's the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes but without emoting without feeling that person's feelings without experiencing the other person's feelings so in the previous dialogue I was able to put myself in your shoes I had no emotional reaction even when you were describing you know some difficult things or when you were expressing your own emotions I had no emotional reaction whatsoever I related only to the data that you have that you have dispensed but not to the emotional correlate of these data. On the other hand that so that's on one hand but on the other hand you were able to co-opt me you were able to convince me to empathize with you because that was your condition for providing me with narcissistic supply the interview. So it got me thinking that cold empathy can be used to dictate or to convince narcissistic psychopaths to play by certain rules. Okay well let me reflect back what I'm hearing so far then in our last dialogue we used the empathic listening and that you were reflecting but you were using cold empathy and you didn't you were just sending back the data that I was sending you but there was no feeling you had no feeling attached to that so you were seeing that perhaps this approach could be used in some way with narcissists and psychopaths to and that's kind of where you are now. Yeah so it seems that if the condition versus if the condition for giving the narcissist narcissistic supply give the condition for gratifying a psychopath providing the psychopath with benefits or fulfilling the psychopath's goals providing the narcissist with attention and adulation if the condition for all these is that the narcissist and psychopath empathize with the source of these benefits with the source of narcissistic supply etc etc I think the narcissists and psychopaths won't empathize they would accept this condition and they will be able to put themselves in the sources truths so to speak it's true that they would have no corresponding emotions it won't make them more human or more it's not the real equivalent of empathy but at the very least it would enable them to see the other person's point of view which is very rare for narcissists and psychopaths so kind of conditioned empathy like you want narcissistic supply you first have to empathize with me first have to listen to me you first have to see me you want psychopath you want money you want some other kind of benefit you first have to put yourself in my shoes so making empathy even cold empathy making empathy a precondition for complying with the expectations and wishes and needs of psychopaths and narcissists and i'm talking about a therapeutic setting in therapy okay you're saying that perhaps the empathic listening could be used with psychopaths and narcissists in the sense that these are the rules that they have to follow this is the procedure they have they need to follow but that they're getting the supply what you call supply from this process but in the process they're having to empathize with the other person so there's something kind of going on there where they're getting what they're exactly what they're getting exactly what you've done exactly what you've done to me in the previous dialogue that's exactly what you've done to me you've told me in effect if you want this interview you have to play by these rules and these rules include empathic listening and empathic reflection these are the rules it's a ticket to live in situation so i have leveraged my cold empathy i have used it in order to listen to you and i was actually i was listening to you and i was able to see you that it evoked no emotional reaction in me is in my view besides the point because it was still empathy in the technical sense only without the emotional component so you're saying that i i kind of set the rules and if you are to if you are to have the interview or the dialogue that those were the rules and you had to play by the rules and that it did cause you to empathize with me because that was the rules of the game in a sense it's uh uh was there more to that or did i get that no sorry i what's the sentence i i'm finished or yeah i'm fully heard i'm fully heard yeah so um the one thing that comes to me is i just did a session called focusing and it's a process i don't know if you've ever heard of it but it's a process that was designed developed by gene genland who is a student of carl rogers and um i'll give you a pause here to reflect if you're wanting to reflect me to that point oh to reflect you i'm terribly sorry i thought you said i give you a post to reflect i interpreted it like i give you a post to think yeah yeah to reflect sorry to reflect you yeah sorry sorry you you you have mentioned a a therapeutic presumably process called the focusing which was developed by janling one of carl rogers cars rogers students and you were about to explain what it is i i hope yeah and what it is is to for and i actually did the process with someone in australia who's a focusing uh teacher practitioner and what you do is you come into a felt sense like what is it that i'm feeling like what is in my body and i would share the feeling oh i have a little anxiety in this part of my body and the person would reflect back what it was that i was feeling and and on the edge of my you know how feelings change from one moment to the next that feeling if i just stay with it and hear it reflected or hear it it actually changes and the person would just and i would keep sharing what is it that i feel and they would reflect what i felt and it was like a whole uh a whole journey of emotions would come up and they would reflect what i was hearing so i was kind of like wondering what that would be like for you to share what you're actually feeling what are the sensations in your body and i would reflect that you describe focusing sounds a bit like a stream of consciousness it's a description of inner states in this case the inner state of the body or psychological aspects of bodily sensations such as anxiety and so on so forth so one of participants describes presumably on a minute-by-minute basis what's going on with him in in his inner landscape and the other participant reflects to the first one what he has heard and what he has understood so it's it would strike me as kind of a empathic listening but more more limited to psychological aspects of bodily sensations and so on yeah it's focused it's on the on the bodily sensations and and the bodily sensations evolve and change and they move you can note i at least i noticed it moved through the body and and one feeling came up and then another feeling came up and it was the sharing i was sharing those and i kind of went on this emotional journey with this person empathizing and listening to me as i went on that journey so you're describing an experience you've had with someone from australia where you have toyed toyed with the focusing and so you did you you were the one who was describing his inner feelings the only thing i don't quite understand is when you say feelings for instance i have a pain in my hand or is it i'm anxious right now is it more psychological or more physiological what is it that you were hearing you're wondering about the what type of sensation is it a physical pain or is it a psychological pain and it's anything it's any felt sensation so it's really about what is the felt sensation in your body sharing that felt sensation in in in real time as it evolves so both physiological and psychological anything and the other person is reflects that to you and that should create a kind of shared shared experience i assume and you're wondering if it's a shared experience it's a it's a yeah it's it's uh the reason the reason i mentioned that is because you talked about cold empathy is you were saying that you had no feeling and i was wondering what is the bodily sensation that you have in your body so that was it's like so that that's about that's what that's kind of my curiosity is what are the felt experiences that you do feel since you said you had no feeling for in related to what i was saying but what do you feel right so my if you just want to if you just want to reflect that that's first yeah and my statement that i had that i had no emotional correlate that i had no no emotions attendant to my reflection of you provoking you the thought of what was it that i did feel i must have felt something so what was it that i did feel and you think that focusing might elicit the the true picture of what it is that i'm feeling or have felt or and so but just a comment here perhaps out of protocol but still very crucial and i make a distinction between sensations and emotions and so sense or sense sense input or sense output sensations are i would i would think more physiological in nature and so definitely when i was talking to you i had i must have had i don't recall but i must have had some physiological sensations whether they are directly related or connected to what you were saying i'm not sure whether they were directly related or connected to what i was saying to you by way of reflecting you i'm also not sure but one thing i did not have a thought i did not have emotions in the colloquial sense of the word like i didn't have pity or i didn't have the anger when i didn't have love or i didn't have faith i didn't have any any of the huge probably of what normal people street in street talk called emotions so it is true it is yeah i did feel i felt heard up to that point and i was done so i'm glad to shift now to listen to you and so you're saying that you in in our last dialogue that you must have had sensations in your body but you didn't have emotions and that you didn't have the emotions of love or pity or some other ones but you did have you you feel you you think you probably had some sensations and you and you differentiate sensations from emotions i also don't i also am i'm not decided in my mind yet whether empathic reflection using cold empathy has the same value therapeutic or communicative communication wise whether it has the same value as normal empathy used in the same circumstance so i don't know if cold empathy is a constricted variant of warm empathy or is it an entirely different beast entirely different animal and if you have a normal person reflecting you they are bound to use proper empathy with with an emotional correlate with emotional responses and if you have me it's more or less like talking to a computer i mean i'm sure there could easily we could easily program a computer to reflect back to you what you have said by changing you know pronouns tenses and so on so i'm not quite sure what is the value added of using cold empathy but the only thing i'm sure of is that you can use cold empathy to condition narcissists and psychopaths and reinforce certain behavior of that i'm sure so you're not sure about the relationship of cold and warm empathy and the reflective process that you could just have a computer that kind of reflects back the the data the cold empathy but you're it's you're you're you're not clear about the relationship of of cold and warm empathy and a reflective process and there was another part to it i didn't i don't think i got uh yeah it's okay because i sorry it was very long and but the only thing i am sure of is that this process of empathic reflection or whatever you want to call it the this process can be used to condition narcissists and psychopaths and to reinforce reinforce certain behaviors or suppress others so i'm sure of that the cold empathy can be used to change to modify the behavior of narcissists and psychopaths you know in a therapeutic setting by providing them with incentives so it's if linked when linked to an incentive structure it can have it can have the outcomes can can be behavior modification okay so you see this empathic listening we've got the empathy circle or the empathic listening that having that as a structure uh youth you feel that it can actually change a psychopaths or a narcissist behavior and and especially if it's linked to some some some kind of an emotion or something that the psychopath a narcissist get so they feel that they're getting something out of it and so they're willing to do it and they have an incentive to do it and having that training or doing that could be used as a tool to affect the behavior of a narcissist or psychopath i am definitely perfectly correct um yeah you you had mentioned a therapeutic setting and i'm imagining it in a relationship as well because we did an empathy circle and a woman was in it that she actually saw this this last interview that we did and she was very taken by it because she's recovering from two relationships with narcissists and so she's in a support group and you know all women support group of women dealing with narcissists so um you had a circle an empathy circle in which there was a woman who is recovering from relationship with narcissists and he does take recovery she has uh she has watched the uh the latest interview with uh we've done she was taken by it but i've been affected by it i assume right and um and uh yeah so the point that was that was up to that point is that um now what you did get that the the the point was is that you'd mentioned therapeutic setting and i'm wondering about we're thinking about relationships and i'm taking about relationships like with uh with uh with a family that you know i know a couple people that say well my mother was a narcissist you know my mother has some narcissistic qualities love her dearly but they're you know i think in fact we all have actually some kind of narcissistic kind of capacity uh and qualities to us and maybe even the society is very narcissistic in a lot of sense so if you can bring into a family situation these an empathy circle like this is the rules we're going to spend so much time every day or every couple days in an empathy circle where everyone uses this reflective listening as a process i think it could really do a lot to uh heal the relationships so you think we should not confine the the conversation to a therapeutic setting but you think it can the same principle can be applied in in a variety of relationships between spouses between the parents children and so on so forth you think that if for instance uh there will be an established procedure of having an empathy circle once a day or once a week doesn't matter and within and implementing work applying this principle of give and take you know you give me empathy i give you narcissistic supply whatever if if this principle can be applied you believe it would have a healing effect on many many relationships yeah and that was the main thing was to take it out of just the therapeutic because i i don't see myself as a therapist i really am looking at cultural change and i feel that the empathy's kind of got locked away in the therapeutic setting and it really needs to be brought into the the cultural social setting you you don't believe that empathy should be confined to therapy alone you think it's too it's too narrow a setting for empathy you think empathy is a cultural social thing and it should be expressed in cultural social um contexts and settings yeah so you believe that everything we are discussing should be should be applied to a broader canvas a variety of relationships society at large potentially the culture and so yeah yeah i feel fully heard thanks and i want to add that i think intuitively uh when you when someone finds himself or herself in an inner relationship with the nazi be it with a mother with a with a spouse and so on i think they intuitively do that i think they very often demand empathy or at the very least demand being listened to when being seen in return for the provision of narcissistic supply or some other benefits so we know we're knowing many family situations were were uh you would tackle a narcissist in a in a family setting as you tackle a narcissist and you would give that narcissist money just to be able to continue to interact with this nonsense to be to be heard by this narcissist to be seen by this narcissist to so you are buying the narcissist called empathy with money or with other benefits with attention with adulation with admiration with money with so these trades this this trades these trade offs or trades proper trades between benefits and cold empathy i think are already taking place wherever there's a relationship with the narcissist so you're seeing that there's already kind of a trade going on in in society between perhaps families and with narcissists in a family or in any kind of relationship that people are giving the narcissist something in exchange for the narcissist giving back something some kind of attention or something so these are these trades already happen at some level within society yes i'm i i for instance because i correspond with many victims of narcissism i've been doing it for 17 years now so by now a thousand of them i know for instance that it's a common technique to for for an abused wife let's say with a narcissistic husband so she gives him adulation attention admiration and so on so forth on condition that he pays a kind of notices her caters to some of her needs puts himself in her shoes from time to time like it's give me a cold supply and i'll give you everything you need i'll give you a narcissistic supply in the case of a narcissistic or i'll give you money if it's a psychopath or whatever so i think these these trades are already taking place they are not formalized they're not formalized and they haven't in mind you've been studying and so on but i think they're pretty pretty common so these trades already happen in society that there is some kind of a trade going on with psychopaths or narcissists and and their partners or others and that they haven't these uh these trades that go on haven't been studied and that they haven't been made formalized and sounds like maybe you're thinking like doing an empathy circle is a very formalized structure in that way for for doing that for doing those trades last point before i'm fully heard is consider for instance politicians there are no you know there are no rigorous studies of the prevalence of narcissistic narcissism and psychopathy among politicians but it's tends to reason that narcissists would gravitate to politics because they can garner narcissistic supply and and and uh yield or will power over other people etc etc so it's a highly narcissistic profession politics it's tend to reason that many politicians are narcissists what is the trade of that we as a society what is the trade that we as a society have with the narcissistic politician we will give you power we will give you adulation we will give you attention we will give you admiration we give you all the narcissistic supply you want and you from time to time put yourself in our shoes consider our needs cater to our wishes see us hear us so the narcissistic politician is participating in exactly this trade this social trade he is getting narcissistic supply and he's giving back cold empathy when he considers the needs wishes priorities and preferences of his electorate for the voters so you're saying that within society that narcissists might tend towards politics and there's a relationship between the poly the narcissistic politician and the voters people supporting them and that the that the narcissist is getting power they're getting adulation they're getting all these different qualities and these things that they're getting is what you're calling narcissistic supply and that kind of tradeoff there is at some point the voters are saying you give us some attention to our needs and so there's you give us some you give us some in effect simulated or cold empathy you know you if you need to even pretend that you care for us but show us that you care for us show us that you do take into account our needs our priorities our wishes or you know you you take care of if there's a disaster you are there I mean show us even act we don't mind just just pretend that you and you're empathizing with us we know that you are narcissists we know that you're incapable of really empathizing but give us the show that's also okay give us the cold empathy and I mean politicians use cold empathy in their interaction with electrons voters and nations so the politicians are actually using cold empathy with their with their constituents and it's almost as if the the constituents just you know just put on a show at least of having empathy for us you know and and we'll be satisfied with that even though we I don't know if you're saying that they're saying that oh we know that you're a narcissist but at least put on a show that you're not narcissistic put on a show that you do care about us and we'll kind of be happy with that and they're very pissed off when when the the politician doesn't put on the show so when bush didn't visit Katrina during the after the hurricane and so on the voters were very angry so they're very angry when when something breaks in the theatrical production of cold empathy the voters that's it I'm sorry yeah so there's like a show going on and if the if the politicians who are narcissists don't kind of can do their part in the show then the voters get very upset like with bush and Katrina yeah okay yeah then um yeah I like what I'm looking wondering about again is is that felt sense of what does I'm wondering what is the felt sense for you of of cold empathy what you're calling cold empathy what does it feel like is bodily sensations uh to you uh that's a question or I just reflect the question yeah okay um you're wondering what would be the what would be the bodily uh and psycho psycho physiological reactions while I'm engaging in cold empathy while I'm reflecting back at you uh using my cold empathy because I've claimed that there are no emotions what else am I thinking there must be other sensations and you're wondering what they are yeah and I'm wondering like now even you know without focusing a you know approach like what is the sensations that you're feeling within your body is is what I'm wondering and I'm wondering if you would be able to be willing to share some of those two so you're wondering one what are the sensations even in this process that we're undergoing right now and you're also wondering whether I'd be willing to share them I feel fully hurt yeah thanks yeah I would be willing to show them of course the problem is that there's nothing to share uh when as a because I'm a narcissist so when as a as a narcissist when I'm focused on obtaining narcissistic supply perhaps there is something to share actually wait a minute I'm I'm I'm retracting retracing let's start from beginning when as a I'm a narcissist so when as a narcissist I'm focused on obtaining narcissistic supply I'm more or less more or less like a laser beam the the remainder of reality is excluded so I'm not aware of my environment physical or so I'm not aware of the room or what's happening in my peripheral vision and so I'm completely focused on obtaining supply and on my source of supply and my body is very very tense it's a little like flight or fight reaction it's I'm very tense I'm sure my adrenaline levels are very high not only in this conversation generally speaking but also in this conversation because for me it's it's the main aim of this conversation the main goal is to derive an extract from you and from the viewers later narcissistic supply so for me it's a classic narcissistic supply rich situation so whatever I'm in such a situation granting an interview or having conversations such as this one or whatever I the closest I can describe me would be flight or fight reaction so I'm sure that my adrenaline level is very high I'm sure that I have stress hormones coursing throughout my body I feel stressed I feel anxious but goal oriented anxiety it's not like diffuse anxiety but like this is what I have to do and I am about to achieve it and I'm about to close the deal a little like deal maybe you know like closing the deal okay so for you yeah so you started talking about some things and then like oh feeling anything then you are to scratch that because you did notice some kind of a sensation so you are to scratch the initial comments and then what you were noticing is that you have a laser focus and that that laser focus you exclude other experiences and that you focus on on on the person or the situation and it's wanting to get some kind of supply and there's a there's a quality of anxiety around that that kind of a and you're and you're saying that the the stress hormones are probably very high because there's a bodily sensation of stress but a very deep a very focus on on the person that you're talking with to kind of get something from them and that there's that you're not only that but also from the viewers the people who are viewing wanting to get something from them so there's a real tense focus and that you're I think you're saying that you were feeling that at the moment as well yes I am so it's a combination of tunnel vision tunnel vision flight or fight reaction extreme stress albeit not filter stress but now that I made to think about it now that you made me think about it I noticed for instance the time sweating that I'm twitching that I have ticks so it's extreme stress and narcissistic supply is so critical to me it is the foundation of my function without narcissistic supply I've rendered completely dysfunctional and I need narcissistic supply every second of the day every minute of every hour 24 7 otherwise I crumble the narcissistic reply is the exact equivalent in my view of a drug of drugs I'm addicted I'm not addict the reactions my bodily reactions are akin to the bodily reactions of an addict who is on the verge on the constant verge of cold turkey going cold turkey no that's our bed it is so and it's all not only with you in this conversation it's generally this is my state of being I'm like a high strong wire it's my state of being this I like that all the time all the time including in my sleep you're talking about your state of being you're always this high strong state of of being and it's uh you're sweating you have twitching it's very highly stressed and it's always it's like a drug addict who's on the verge of going cold turkey so it's like you're needing something or you're calling a supply and that there's a real focus and an anxiety about a painting that and you'd laid out a couple of things I'm not sure if I heard all of those no you're not perfect you're reflecting perfectly so and this the last one that I'm making before I'm fully heard is that I think that's one of the reasons why it's very difficult for me to empathize because looks like the connection got to the connection got a little dropped there you're saying that that was it's difficult for you to empathize because and then we didn't hear it yeah I was I was sorry I saw the connection and so it's okay it's different for me to empathize because empathy expressing it fee experiencing it sharing it requires energy and I am in a constant state of depletion because of this need to pursue because of this pursuit because of this need to secure my statistic supplier tension admiration whatever because of this constant need I am depleted and I simply don't have energy for other people I hardly have enough energy for myself you know so I think that's why I cannot I think it's a survivor mechanism like don't use this scarce energy on someone else you need all of it you know it's like a warning red alert don't don't do that you need all of it don't this is very scarce so it's you're in a constant state of stress and and on the edge like you're saying of an addict of of this resource that you don't have and you don't and it's a very stressful feeling and it's it's a wanting wanting attention wanting the adulation wanting those feelings to come that's what you're calling supply and you don't have the being in that constant state of stress you don't have anything to give I guess it's it's you don't have no energy no energy there's no energy you're like on the it's like almost like a survival mode it's like constant survival mode exactly I'm I'm depleted I'm simply and so feeling very depleted it's like just no energy just totally depleted imagine that you hadn't drunk water in in five days you hadn't had a drop of water in five I mean three days to make it more realistic you haven't had a drop of water your thoughts everything your entire essence and quintessence and being in mind everything would be focused on finding water I don't think you're going to have energy for for anything else or for anyone else I don't think you'll be able to empathize if you're that thirsty and I'm constantly that thirsty so you're making an analogy that it's like not having had water for three days you're just you're always like so thirsty that you just don't have energy for anyone else you don't have any space energy for everyone else that you're constantly in that state of just not having enough to drink enough and so you just don't have any any empathy can't have empathy for others because you're in such a state of thirst yes I'm wondering what is it is that the state that you're I'm just wondering that's the state that you're in now I guess is is that state of of thirst and I'm wondering how is it where is it located in your body if you look at the landscape within your body like where are the where is it located and and how does how does the landscape shift and move having accepted my description of of my need as a kind of thirst or kind of having accepted the physiological analogy that I've made to thirst you're wondering where in my body does it manifest or express itself most importantly most strongly and so you asked me where in my body do I feel it most yeah it's more like what is the physical landscape within your within the body like where you know word is like I had some angst when I did this focusing I was I just had a fight with my girlfriend and it was and it was like I felt this kind of a deep kind of anxiety within my chest and it was almost like a nausea it was like so deep I almost felt nauseous in terms of wanting to vomit and and as I shared it that the feeling changed and it got bigger and it got smaller and it went to my head and it moved and I was just recounting the physical sensations as they moved and transformed and so I guess I was just wondering what what is the landscape of your bodily sensations at the moment you described an experience you've had while focusing you said that you would have some you've quarreled with your girlfriend and so you had a very strong anxiety centered around your chest and you even wanted to you had nausea you you felt like throwing up and but as you progressed with the focusing exercise you said that it got it got dispersed it went up to your head and sort of spread became less concentrated and more more spread throughout your body then you were wondering what will be the equivalent equivalent to my case yeah I feel fully heard if I have to compare my but one thing is very important to one distinction is very important to make you have described a reaction to an event in event your inner state was reactive my inner state is quintessential it's permanent and proactive it's not it's not it has very little to do with the outside world it's there it's my state of being it's existential and if I have to compare it to anything in psychology it would be to a panic attack I'm in a constant state of a panic attack and the panic is would I be able to secure the next dose of narcissistic supply so it's a classic panic attack you know simulated chest pains headaches a kind of combination stroke and heart attack on a permanent basis imagine you were having a stroke or in a heart attack combined throughout your life every minute of your life that's more or less what I'm going through us so it's very very yeah sorry go ahead you just uh you were saying that I was reacting to to my girlfriend and there was like a reactive kind of a quality to it and what you're saying is that what your state is is like a constant panic attack where you have chest pains and and different sensations that are involved in panic but it's a constant given state that you're living you're experiencing yes and it has to do with the uncertainty regarding my ability to secure the next dose of narcissistic supply and this ties in with empathy because sources of narcissistic supply the vast majority of sources are human other human beings other people so if I were to empathize with them only properly healthily I would not be able to objectify them as sources it would exclude my ability to use them as sources of supply because to derive and to extract supply from someone I need to be manipulative exploitative sometimes I need to lie sometimes and I always need to create a kind of shared circumstances so I need to objectify and dehumanize that person I need to treat that person as a source that's why I'm using the word source because source is impersonal you know but actually when I say source of narcissistic supply I'm referring to other people if I were to empathize properly and healthily I would not be able to extract narcissistic supply and without narcissistic supply I would crumble to bits and pieces in a split second it's existential my survival depends on my inability to feel empathy so your survival depends on not feeling empathy because it's a sense that if you did feel empathy you would just crumble and that you're calling people you're you're trying to objectify people calling them a source because that's the way that you can more easily by objectifying them it's easier to manipulate them and to get what it is that you want exactly that means people people for me are sources of ratification objects I must dehumanize them I must denude them of their humanity in order to convert them to sources of supply and if I weigh if I weigh empathy being having healthy empathy with narcissistic supply narcissistic supply is far more important to me than the need to be normal or healthy or feel empathy I need narcissistic supply above everything else there's nothing I would not do for narcissistic supply and there is no one I will not do anything if I if I'm in need of supply it's exactly like a junkie you know junkie junkies would rob their own mother to to to obtain the money to buy to buy the next dose there's no empathy there it's a drug addiction so you're really making it analogy to drug addiction that the the need for the the supply adulation attention and whatever all those different feelings is so great that you would do anything for that especially since if you don't have that you would kind of cease to exist you you would fall apart and so if you were weighing having empathy for someone or just kind of getting something from them other from the source that you would always choose the supply because trying to get that from people because if you don't you would fall apart and and finally before I'm fully heard don't forget that I have been objectified and dehumanized I have been treated as an object and I've been severely abused in my early childhood so I have learned I have learned that this is the way people relate to each other they objectify and dehumanize and abuse and I it has become my modus operandi it's something that I grew up in my was conditioned to be a narcissist it didn't just happen you know it was a process acquired so you're just tying it back to your childhood which we had talked about before that that you were in an environment in a narcissistic environment and you were conditioned toward to that and that's it didn't just happen it's like it was a conditioning that kind of brought you to the situation that you're in you told me about your childhood and yet you you did not become a narcissist I wonder if you can elaborate on that yeah so I talked about my childhood and I didn't become a narcissist you're saying and if I would elaborate on that you're saying yeah yeah definitely my parents came from Germany through you know for they were refugees so they went through a lot of really difficult situations my father he was in what was northern Poland what's now northern Poland in East Prussia and when the Russians came in he was hid in the barn and they killed everybody in his family I asked you about your childhood and so you began by giving some a bit of a background on your on your parents you said that your parents were or Germans essentially who lived in eastern Poland the dance or something probably and as the Russians invaded they killed your father's entire family while he was hiding in a barn so that must have been I don't know how old he was but that must have been a extremely traumatic experience I mean I suppose I suppose he heard it yeah yeah so and yeah he went you know after they were all killed you know he went into the house and saw them you know all shot and I mean it's even worse than that in terms of his sister was still actually alive and she had said you know when the when the soldiers come again I'm going to ask them to shoot me because she had been shot through the spine was paralyzed and so he went and hid and then you know later some more soldiers came and he heard a shot so she was actually shot and and so anyway so it was quite a quite a you know horrific experience for him then he was in a Russian concentration camp later he was caught and so then for you know like six seven ten years was a refugee and eventually immigrated to the United States so the the case or I mean the case was even worse than than you've described before and you gave additional details as to what has happened there which must have must have rendered the whole the whole event even much more traumatic than I thought yeah and then and then you indicated that your father you told me that your father ended up in a Soviet concentration camp which must have been a horrible experience and then he later only became a refugee but then finally he immigrated to the to the United States so there was a sizable chunk of his childhood and adolescence where he spent in the most horrifying traumatic environment consumer yeah and the same with with my mother who they were in another part they were in my father was in a German part of what's now Poland and my mother was in the Polish part and the same similar thing happened when the Russians came in with her and her family except it was just women and you know children but there was you know like gang rapes you know all kinds of really horrible kind of situations you know happening with them as well and you know refugees and really being abused as they were as you as when when you know ethnic groups are kind of kicked out of a country like they were kicked out of Poland there's all kinds of abuse along the way just like happened in India or anywhere else so your mother came from a similar background to your father she also has went through her own personal ordeal which being a woman was different to your father but still equally traumatizing and horrible and she was from another part of Poland but still when the Russians came in they deported all the folks from the Germans who lived there and so they both come from extremely extreme traumatic experience yeah so um for my mother you know I think this really affected her and she has a kind of a quality where it's really hard to kind of when talking with her to really have her here you know I mean and it changes but it there's a little bit of a narcissistic quality to it in that it's almost like she doesn't know anything else it's like she'll just talk and talk and if I'm talking she doesn't really hear it doesn't feel like she really hears always you know what I'm saying and it's like she always has to talk you know she always needs kind of attention and um so it's a little you know it's it's uh yeah it's somewhat narcissistic in that sense before I reflect you just to fully understand she talks the things she said she says have anything to do with what you are talking about or no it's like she'll she'll talk and talk and talk and talk and then she says why aren't you saying anything and I'll say okay well I'll start talking and then as soon as I start talking she starts talking again you know and so it's like I almost give up like I'm not going to say anything because you know it's like she'll just talk over me you know it's like I'm not really listening so so you feel that probably only into her life experiences um it's very difficult to conduct a true dialogue with with your mother in which you will be heard as well as here um you feel that your mother is incapable to effectively listen to you and hear what you're saying or even to let you speak yeah she tends she tends to dominate and monopolize the conversation and she talks over you and and so on and you believe that that this might indicate some narcissistic trait on us because it might be a narcissistic behavior yeah and I understand that where it comes from from all this trauma you know kind of growing up so yeah so um what was interesting is I've been trying to listen more because my family is you know evangelical christians so very conservative uh and you know I'm kind of I was more on the progressive side so I've been at least when I growing up I had a lot of fights and arguments with them you know about that I'm right no you're wrong and so and so kind of one way I dealt with it was to get into kind of a fight mode but then it's like learn more about empathy I've been trying to just hear and empathize with them more uh your family are evangelical christians and you found yourself on the more progressive end of the of the religious spectrum and so inevitably and probably also because you were an adolescent it's typical behavior you were a bit you found yourself involved in conflicts and and debates and and arguments and and so on and at the beginning you reacted by being very competitive by by fighting back and you know insisting on your position and so on but later on you have acquired you have decided or you have acquired uh skills of listening empathizing being able to absorb what the other party was saying and and so and I understood from you implicitly implicitly implicitly that this whole history has led you to your interest in empathy and in listening and reflection and that's yeah it was actually I uh right after you know it was about 17 18 I took off traveling and traveled around the world for 10 years so kind of had a lot of adventures learning you know being with a lot of different people so I think that really kind of changed uh me uh a lot too so in your late adolescence you embarked on a kind of trip around the world and you you've come across different people different cultures different sensitivities and so on so forth and you think this has formed you this is uh this has made you more amenable and and even susceptible to other people's points of view and what they what they have to say yeah you became a better listener yeah and really valuing uh empathy and then uh so I really try to bring it into the family now uh in terms there's a lot of stories I could tell about how successful it's been because it's been really quite successful in terms of of strengthening the connections and I don't want to go on too long I want you to have a chance to share too so no no I don't mind at all it's fascinating actually oh um so you say that you you are now applying the skills you're required as far as empathy goes in uh within your family circle and you believe that it has had a positive effect in some respects enhancing communication possibly and and other effects yeah so you're pretty happy that you were chosen to do that yeah for one story then since you're willing to go on that is there was a conflict started between my sister in law and my mother there was like a a real argument started and they were pointing fingers and don't talk to me that way and like just and this was on Christmas uh day you know the evening and it looked like everything was going to blow up and then I kind of stepped into it and it was kind of a terrifying experience but I started empathizing with both sides so to my sister in law I started saying oh I'm hearing you say this I'm hearing just the reflection which we're doing which you and I are doing now and she started calming down and then I started doing the same thing with my mother kind of doing the empathic listening and we just kept going back and forth for almost 10 minutes I was empathically mirroring both of them and so I'll catch up to that point you you've just described an incident or an instance of using these skills that you have acquired where your mother and your sister in law at the altercation on Christmas Eve and to prevent an oral disaster you stepped in and you started reflecting both parties and to and by saying you know I hear you I hear that you're saying this and this sister in law and then similarly to your mother and the tension abated and and confrontation was oh no that's I was only it only abated a little bit then once it abated a little enough I asked them to start talking to each other and saying would you now speak with you know each other and reflect back and don't shift until the person feels fully heard so kind of the empathic listening that we're doing and they said okay and then one would start sharing and then the other one would want to react right away and I said no no we have to wait until she feels fully heard and she says she's fully heard before it's your turn to speak back and so I kind of created that dialogue with them and I had to kind of keep it on track because they would want to always react and then the whole family gathered around and it turned into this whole family empathy circle so you impromptu you're on the spot kind of taught your sister in law and your mother how to do empathic listening you'll introduce them to the ground rules I know you you you can you can't talk until the other person said that he's fully heard she's fully heard and so on and so they tried it and and it seemed to work to some extent and then the the rest of the family joined in and it became a thoroughly wide empathy circle in which these techniques of empathic listening and the pathic reflection and so on were used by presumably by everyone I'm just wondering yeah sorry oh and and just the last piece that I'll put in there but with with with my mother she would start she would talk and talk and talk and talk and it was like you know say so much and she tells stories that kind of weave and wind and and she goes on and on so I said to her when you tell stories that are so long I get lost can you reflect what I said she says I forgot ten word sentence ten word sentence so your mother tends to go in tangents and and you know we've complicated thousand and one life stories and so on and and so you told her when you when you do this I get lost and I I don't see the point or keep missing the point and so and then you asked her to reflect what you had said and she said that she had forgot yeah what you said and then I said it again I said when you tell long stories uh like that I get lost and then she says and can you reflect that she says oh I'm so confused yes I was wondering how she how she fitted in because he said she was much better at talking than at listening and listening is a crucial component of empathic listening yes so I was wondering how you any kind of advice on it so you said that you you repeated the sentence again to her and asked her to reflect it which seemed to have confused her and she said I'm confused this was a reaction yeah and I had to repeat it like about five times until she finally could just say the simple sentence of oh when I tell long stories you feel confused I mean just that little part you know but she did say it eventually you know so it's it's it's that you know finally had to kind of train her to you know not be so absorbed in what's going on in her but to be able to listen to others to and be able to hear and reflect them so I mean it's just this is just one story out of a lot of stories of how I'm kind of bringing the empathy into my family is having really great effects and healing a lot of the I don't know dysfunction I guess or this miss this miscommunication right so having failed twice you persisted you you kept repeating the sentence until she got it and was able to reflect accurately the content suggest of the sentence if not the verbiage so and and you said that this is a just one example of many in which you are implementing these principles and in this case in the family circle and to what effect yeah the good the good effect yeah so I feel fully heard with that yeah I feel fully heard your mother story is very interesting assuming for a minute although she hasn't yet had I mean she hasn't been diagnosed by anyone and so on but assuming for a minute that she does have some narcissistic personality style and narcissistic traits behaviors it's a very interesting case because no one fails to repeat a very simple sentence you know unless they are resistant to that sentence unless there is some psychological resistance involved it's not like you read to her the entire pentatonic or my ball it was simple sentence she's presumably an intelligent woman or sufficiently intelligent to repeat the sentence so when she said I'm confused and so on these are these are typical manifestations of strong psychological resistance and you asked me to be honest and in this conversation and it's a prerequisite and it's a rule of the game so I'll abide so do I I also feel resistant throughout this conversation so that's where your mother and I tie in I have a very strong incentive to collaborate with you so that's why I'm suppressing my resistance but it doesn't mean it's not there and my resistance wears many forms but maybe I'll stop here to allow you to reflect so you're seeing that uh that my mother has resistance to doing the reflection and that you're seeing a parallel to your situation that on one hand you're willing to do the reflection but on the other hand that you have a real strong you're feeling constant resistance to the reflection yes as I said I have a very strong incentive to proceed and abide by your rules and that incentive is not its supply but that doesn't mean that I'm not feeling resistant and so the resistance wears many forms so I question the sagacity I question the wisdom of engaging in this kind of exchange couldn't we have been much more much more fruitful could we have been much more constructive using another type of of exchange I'm questioning I'm questioning my ability to be fully sincere not that I'm lying or or misinforming you but I'm questioning my ability to be aware of the truth in me so I don't know how how productive and how truthful it is so but all these are forms of resistances they all these are kind of I'm trying to find an excuse to break it off because I I am averse I am averse to touchy feeling touchy feeling you know it's a reversal but on the other hand I have a very strong incentive you know I think this series is very very interesting not only the viewership not only no physics supply but I think we are we are creating something interesting I don't want to say unique or not interesting you know people the viewership numbers prove it I mean people find interesting so I would feel it would be a great shame and be it to break it off just because I have some psychological resistances which are related to my narcissism because I am the I'm I'm the omniscient I'm the omnipotent I'm the I'm the I'm the boss I'm the alpha male I'm you know and so but here you're forcing me to be an eco and I'm abiding by the issue I am but it generates of course narcissistic injury of some kind and so so what I'm saying is these resistances are in the background in the rear their heads ugly heads not ugly heads but they rear their heads repeatedly you asked me to describe what's happening inside me so that's one thing that's happening inside this concept what is it doing can't we do it differently is it the right thing to do this all that is happening so you're recounting what's happening inside inside yourself and you're you're finding that on one hand you know you're willing to do this empathic listening but that there's an ongoing kind of a resistance and that resistance kind of manifests itself in different ways comes up I think you're even say rears its head or ugly head or whatever and that and one of the resistance that you're feeling is well couldn't we be doing this a different way isn't there is some other way of doing this there was another resistance there was a couple there was yeah there's just different ways of resisting like you know yeah but you had different ones but I'm not sure I got each of those yeah that was very important it's just get examples but one minor one minor correctional point that I didn't make clear is that it's not that I'm willing to do it it's not that I'm acquiescing or I'm coerced I want very much to do it because I think that we're creating how not only it's not only a source of supply but this value so I want to do it I'm looking forward to doing it but I cannot suppress my my narcissistic injury my resistances my my grandiose reactions my you know I my rage I cannot suppress so it's like I have a multiple personality like I have two personalities one of them one personality wants very much to work on it and sees value in what we're doing in school and the other one keeps nagging at the first personality and saying what is it that you're doing isn't it stupid why are you doing this couldn't you do have done it much better couldn't you have done it differently is this the right thing to do I have to waste time etc etc and this by the way is the constant state of the of the narcissists this duality it's a constant battle between the force set which is a concoction an invention and other elements in the personality that are suppressed and and so there's always this kind of multiple personality disorder going and it is tied to everything but this is export so you're seeing it as actually two it's almost like person at different personalities one is like is um what my screen one is is wanting to do this because you see that it might have some benefits and wanting to kind of explore it and try it and do it uh doing a reflective and pathic listening and then the other is like well isn't there other ways you know kind of the more the sense of wanting to be grandiose or or these other this other parts you have these two parts that are kind of going back and forth between each other and then you're seeing that is uh something part of of of the narcissistic experience that that you have of always being kind of on that edge between the two yes this inner conflict is the kernel it's the kernel of narcissism in my uh so there's conflict between these different ways of being you're seeing as the kernel of of of narcissists yeah narcissists are shattered people they are fractured people fragmented uh but this ties in with empathy which is the last part of this round of my round before I fully heard this ties in with empathy if I do empathize with if I if I if I choose to empathize with people properly and healthily and so on I would sacrifice I would have to sacrifice my narcissistic defenses I I have defenses against this inner fragmentation and the defenses are I am perfect I'm brilliant I'm omnipotent I'm omniscient I'm you know these are the defenses I know that I'm a broken vessel I know that I'm damaged goods but to defend against that against this extremely painful realization I have these narcissistic defenses we call it compensatory narcissism I compensate but if I empathize with another person then I can't be omnipotent if I'm equal to you to be empathized with you means to be you to some extent to be equal to you to to be able to to be put to put myself in your shoes means that you and I are interchangeable but how can we be interchangeable if I'm good luck if I if I'm omniscient if I'm omnipotent definitely you're not omniscient you're not omnipotent I am so if I empathize I have to sacrifice my narcissism if I sacrifice my narcissistic defenses I experience this inner fragmentation and shattering which is the pain beyond description it's it's life-threatening definitely life-threatening I believe that if I lose my narcissistic defenses I will commit suicide my narcissistic my narcissistic defenses guarantee my life they stand between me and the awful world being pain that is the world if I need to empathize I need to sacrifice these I need to remove them thereby exposing myself to potential mortal danger so there is you're seeing this conflict between yourself and that with between parts of yourself and that you create the kind of protection for yourself and if you were to remove the protections that you would kind of shatter and totally be like you're you'd commit suicide because the because it's so I don't know if it's it's there's some yeah for somebody so painful there's so much pain that you would create you would commit suicide so you have to have you have these defenses and it's really you're relating it to empathy because the I guess one of the defenses is that you're kind of superior and godlike and and you know above everyone else and that to empathize it puts us on an equal kind of a footing an equal space and that's maybe threatening or or it has potential to bring up that pain bring bring up the pain and that pain is so overwhelming that to experience that you would maybe just commit suicide rather than deal with that pain so you have all these defenses kind of built up to kind of avoid that pain and like every defense it isolates you from the world what is a defense what is a defensive war what is a castle it's it's isolation from the it's doesn't allow you to access other people and doesn't allow other people to access you hence the lack of empathy lack of empathy is the rivet of narcissistic defenses it's it's an inevitable outcome of narcissistic defense that's it oh yeah so the the defenses that protect yourself actually create a wall against connecting with others and empathizing with with others because you have to protect yourself but that protection creates this disconnect and lack of empathy with others yeah i'm i'm fully on okay um yeah i guess the one thing that came up to me was i'm willing to empathize with every part of you in that sense like you know that part the other part the wall part the pain part so for me the empathy is to empathize with all the different parts and that they're all fine you know it's like i have they're all kind of equally valid and worthy worthy of being empathized with you say that you make no no discrimination or you don't discriminate between the various parts of me in terms of your ability and willingness to empathize with you're willing to empathize with all these structures and constructs that together make me that would be the pain the wall the defenses there and and everything else you see no problem with empathizing with any of these parts and all of them put together yeah they're they're all valid parts of the human experience they're all no need to reflect the very valid parts yes right yeah so um yeah so that's uh that's what's coming i'm also thinking about the time we've we've gone for a little bit over almost an hour and a half we had a little setup time so i'm not sure how i'm i'm fine with continuing the conversation again so i would like to discuss next time if if you are amenable to suggestions i would like to discuss next time i'd like to compare the you you mentioned the the keywords human experience you know i would like to try to compare your human experience with my human experience uh i'm a human being despite appearances of human being and and you're a human being so we are different types of human being i've been diagnosed as a narcissist so i have a different human experience i would like to try to compare them maybe using some empathy techniques and because i think my inner experience is dramatically different to yours and well i hope so at least for you so it raises the it raises the question in which sense are we both human what is it that what's a common denominator what is our humanness if we are that radically different so first we have to establish if we are radically different and if we do discover that we are radically different as we are being told by psychology psychology textbooks and so on then in which sense are we both members of the same psychological species in which sense are we both human and of course this this is the core of empathy it's it's exactly the it's the main the crux of what is empathy you know because if there is no common humanness and human experience if we have no common denominator then how can we empathize at all maybe we're misleading ourselves deluding ourselves you know in psychology there is the issue of inter subjectivity so many so many philosophers sorry many philosophers say that it is not possible to empathize if so if so fact that means by it's not it's not possible at all that we delude ourselves into believing that we can empathize but actually it's not possible because our minds are not accessible and we are using private languages and no dictionary exists between us etc etc so there is this physical philosophical consideration you don't have to reflect me i'm just talking about future in the future talk if you're up to it we can try to compare human experiences and discover what is it that unites us what is the bridge between us that allows us to empathize with each other and maybe we'll discover that there is no such bridge that empathy is excluded you know between the two of us because of analysis and maybe we will discover the common denominator the bridge that allows you to cross over to me and maybe in reverse form allows me to cross over to you i think we need to tackle our humanist what makes us human well i will reflect you said you were saying i didn't need to reflect is that we can have another dialogue and kind of and look at what is how how are we different or how are we the same and what is there some kind of a a connection there and really kind of explore what is the qualities that we have and what are our experiences and where do they where do they maybe if we go deep enough where is the humanity that that common humanity and then you're bringing up maybe even it's not even possible to empathize with some philosophers to say that that's something that's not even a possibility so keeping that an awareness of that too but to kind of do an exploration of really hearing where we are understanding who we are as people as human beings and as human beings and where is this maybe where is the overlap in our humanity but it's but it's in our case you and me specifically it's going to be pretty unique because i am a narcissist part of the definition of pathological narcissism is severe deficiency in humaneness so i'm like a quasi human pseudo human not full fledged human it's a little like you would have an alien it's a little like having an alien on the other end and trying to see whether you can empathize with an alien in effect it's an interesting question can you empathize with an alien you know you're saying that you're saying you're you see yourself as a narcissist that you're as an you're an alien and it's like an alien and is it possible to empathize with an alien is that even a possibility do i have any sufficient residual sufficient residue of humanness that will allow you to really empathize with me understand me and communicate with me effectively or am i so removed that i am from mars and no empathy is possible so is there something is there a humanness within you or are you so removed from this humanity that you're like from mars from like a totally different space and is that even possible to empathize with you because because psychology textbooks claim that both psychopaths and narcissists miss these critical dimensions critical parameters of of being human empathy but not only empathy you know so they claim it's not my claim that they claim these authorities in psychology they claim that narcissists and psychopaths are partly human or deficiently human or whatever so that's why i think the conversation between us could be could be of great interest it's not like two normal people trying to find the common denominator it's like a normal person and something as close to possible to an alien as you can get on earth so this could be an interesting conversation we could be with a normal person what you're calling a normal person and something that's like an alien on earth and that there's philosophers or academics whatever are saying that you know narcissists psychopaths don't have this these capacities or empathy and and so what will kind of happen uh next yeah um fully heard and i think we are fully we're fully done yeah i think so well that was great um so yeah we'll set a schedule and continue the conversation and so i'll uh thank you for spending this time and with that i'll actually stop the recording so stay tuned