 Mae'n meddwl i'r plaf o'r cyfleoedd o'r cyllidau social wedi'i gweld i'r gwaith i'r gweld i'r gysylltau llunio'r rhannu i'w gwneud i'r ysgrifennu i'r gweithio'r busgau a'r gweithio'r busgau sy'n cyfnod i'r gwasanaeth ar y gwasanaeth Cymru. Felly er mwyn i'n gwrt, ac nid i'n gwybod i'n gwrt. Yn 12 o bobl, yng ngynghwm yng Nghymru, ac mae'n gwrth i ddysgu'r Tension Center Anglin Oco. Ac yna'r dweud o'r ymddangos hwnnw. Mae'r ddau'r gwaith a'r ddau'r gwaith. Ac i'n gweld i'r ddau'r ddau, erbyn James y Neil. Mae'n ddau'r ddau'r ddau'r ddau, ac mae'n ddweud yn fawr o'r dyfais ynghylchau, Menon rhywun cael ei wneud, i'w chylo'i dyne, yw'r cyllid yn gyfrannu'r cyllid yn cyfrannu? Trunodd yn yr alignment yn gyfrannu'r cyfrannu, ac os fel'r cyfrannu'n gwylau feddwl Diolch d bardzo yn lyty. Brindio'r llyfr yn gorffono. Diolch i'n brindio'r cyfrannu. Rwy'n gysylltu'n arbar, tynno'n fany i eisteddfodol oldryd. Mae'n dweud sy'n fwy o'r llun o'r granite i gymryd, a'i'r ddweud o'r ddweud. Rydyn ni'n gwneud o'r ddweud i mi i ddim yn fwy o'r ardal, ac rydyn ni'n gofio'n llun o'r llun yn ddigon. A i chi'n gwybod i chi eisiau yn ymgyrch yn Bronson i mi'n ddweud, ac mae'n meddwl i'r hyfr-ein ac yn elw. Ond rydyn ni'n meddwl i'r cyflwyddor ond mae'n meddwl i'r helicopter. Welio'n meddwl i'r meddwl i'r hyfl-ein! Fy oedd yn gwneud â'r teisbwrdd, rwy'n gwybod chi'n deall chosneg. A'i beth gydodu gweld y ffordd a'n bunug a byw o'r ysgolion. Rwy'n cynghori a chesnyddio i cro площad o'r fan, ac mae beth eisiau ei gyfw Nettyg. Ac mae'n meddwl a goneb i gyd, resent o'r piolaidd yma, a'n hyn o'n meddwl i gyrpo. Eno'r gynllun o'n adrodd gennig. Mae'r gweithio'r greu sydd mae'r pwgiedigig, Pema'r Paul Ferris. Ganun i James. Gwyd yn ffiein ystod. Gwyd yn ffiein. Gwyd yn ffiein. Rwyf i'n ffiein. Mae'r dros y podcast yn gweithio'r panfeydd. Da'n gwybod, ond yn ffiein. Mae'r ffiein yn ffiein. Mae'n ffiein o ddiwrnod ei gwelio. Mae'n ddim yn ffiein. Mae'n felw'r llyfau. Mae'n gweld ei ffiein. Mae'n ddiogel. Mae'n gweldio'n gweldio'n gwybod yng Ngheitredol. Cymru sgolwch yn ysgolwch yn ystod y peth, ond dyna'n gael. Os yma, peth 2. Mae ei bwysig yn ddweud y cyfosiadau, ond byddwch yn ddweud y cyfosiadau, ond byddwch yn ddweud y pariwn. Rwy'n gwneud o'r pryd yn y pryd. Rydyn ni'n gweithio bod dyna'r cyfosiadau yn gwasanaethau. Mae'n gweithio. Fydd gofyn i'r cyfrifiadol yn y cyfrifiadol. Mae'n gweithio gan gweithio y pryd yn y cyfrifiadol, mae'n gweithio? First one was Balini as a young offender, one of these situations in Black Hill, the older boys was nicking the cars, taking a chase and then abandoning them so we get seconds on the car and this occasion I didn't go to drive, I couldn't even drive, I just happened to jump in the driver's seat, cop cell, nicked so I get charged for car theft and when I explained to the solicitor who was a court appointed solicitor at the time Peter Forbes, he asked me the whole story for it and when I've told him, I never stole the car, told him the circumstances he said, oh you're pleading not guilty to this. And as I've done that I get remandied, took to Balini, went into D-hall, talked flat where they kept the young offenders and I remember looking out the window because you had to go and stand on them or somebody to help you up and I could see parts of Black Hill and I was fucking devastated thinking how did I end up in here? I was in there for two or three days until they move you, they come down and collect you and take you up and along again. But during the process of being on remand and Balini young offenders at that stage, there was somebody else on that young offender that was going trial, I think it was to do with a death. He was up first killing the girlfriend, the girlfriend, the two of them were seeing each other. I never knew the circumstances, somebody came to the door, the prison door and asked for some tobacco but it was no a polite request, it was like you fucking tobacco in there so I fucked him off anyway. I had enough with Kennedy Bullying in that stage so it's not happening in prison. So the guy who was in me, he came for Black Hill as well and he said watch him, his library came in in the morning, have this, I got a toothbrush with a couple of razor blades, melted in it and I had it under my pillow in my bunk. And sure enough next morning this guy came in and it turns out he was a fucking amateur boxer, a amateur boxer and I'm laughing because I got three rapid and I never knew it. And then I ended up in the bottom bunk and just remember the fact I've got this, which was an equaliser. So he got badly cut and flung out the door and the alarm went off because I never knew he was at trial so he went to trial with quite a lot of damage on him. And everybody else got moved along again and I got kept up for the investigation and they thought I was involved in a love triangle and I never knew the guy, never knew what he was up for. So when I ended up going to Longer again, which is the second one, they came down on the bus to pick you up for Balini. And I knew something was right, I've never been in Longer again before but I get put right into a place called the dog leg. And they call it a dog leg because it's the handmade type thing, it's all ex-military screws that run it. So very early age I get put into the dog leg as a potential travel maker. And then for the dog leg you used to get done at the dining hall, get your food. And that's where I met Paul Hanlon for the first time, Joe Hanlon's brother. And there was just a revenge thing going on with some other prisoners that were in there. And it all kicked off and I'm standing there with a steel tray and somebody's had a goat bag fall. So I threw the steel tray, hit that guy, and it drifted off like a fucking bummerang. Hot screw right in the side of the head. And I thought I would, it's all the cook who was also a screw behind the salvery. He looked at me and said, you fucking seen that. And I've had a few kick-ins in my time but this was just some special. What age were you, Paul? 17, 16, 17. But that made you hate the authorities? I just thought I shouldn't have thrown through the tray. But what had happened was when it kicked off like that, all the screws went in because of the right bilges off. So you've got a screw holding one arm, another screw holding another arm, and then you're elevated, one's got your leg, the other one's got your leg. And I remember hearing something in a mass of pain. He couldn't see nothing. There's all your floating in there. Your face is done in about three feet off the ground. And this other screw ran right up behind me and kicked me right in the bollocks, like a penalty kick. And I remember something going off in my head with this fucking pain. I can't remember too much after it, but it was a fucking sore one. And so that just put us into us and then scenario. They were growing men bashing young boys like that, but I suppose you get involved in things, you go to fucking take it as it goes. Yeah, you haven't learned me, it is, but you never learned your lesson to let it go. No, I was a slow starter. But something like that you always remember. You can remember that pain. And you went to Glenoco after a longer rate? No, I ended up getting a social inquiry report. Dredg McCai, he was the senior social worker for Black Hill and that's around the area. And I think because he'm honest, he told them, like somebody else nicked the car and we were there and we were getting seconds on the car. So technically I never stole it, but you still get a chance for a car thing. So whatever report he put on it worked because it got admonished until I got nicked again. Who was your lawyer? Peter Forbes, he was a court appointed solicitor and I had no need for a solicitor at the time. My dad, he was in prison for bank robbery at the time so I never had any male members of the family or uncles to tell me this is the family solicitor or whatever. It's a court appointed solicitor and I kept with Peter Forbes right through it. You'd done a year in Glenoco after that? What was that for? I'd done a year in Glenoco. The first sentence I went to Glenoco was... That was in 1981? ...was for an assault on robbery with Jill Redman, another local guy for Black Hill. And there was an assault on robbery in Erdre where a night safe bag was to get deposited and a night safe and we took it before they could put it in. But unfortunately where we were running in of, I knew the whole area. I was running towards Erdre Police Station and I get bundled to the ground like a rugby tackle. But you fast? I walked 100 yards into the cops. But you fast? I thought I was fast. But I was not fucking fast. And it turns out that this guy had, I don't know how fast he was, but he was in the rugby team and all our men was getting bundled to the ground. So we get nicked for that and I ended up getting sent to Glenoco for the short, sharp shock and it was a fucking short, short, short. So what is that for people who don't know? It's a military type regime. You're not allowed to talk until you're spoken to. Loads of discipline. And for me what I can remember is it's like being a young guy with blinkers on until you end up in somewhere and your blinkers are off and you just need to get your head down and go on with it. But it was hard James because there's a funny part here that we were all held in the cell at the Glasgow Sheriff Court and it became apparent that everybody in the cell was going to the detention centre and we were all running about the same age but there was this one guy with a moustache that we thought, he's a man. It turns out he was under 21. He's going to detention centre. So he took the lead and the cell was saying we're all going to this detention centre. We've all heard about it and I really heard about it. I'm listening to him. He's the gang fucking leader, isn't he? The guy with the moustache, the big man. He's instructing us all. Nobody march. It's only for three months and we'll spend our time in the segregation unit and fuck the march and we're doing nothing. We're rebels and we're all going... So that took place until the cell door opened and then you've got a prison officer with a list of names and you get called up. Luckily for me, I was called up quite quickly but I was handcuffed to two different people which meant I sat at the back of the bus. So as they fill up the bus, the gang leader with a moustache, I don't even know his name, he's kind of halfway down the bus. I'm near the front of the bus and it saw that dreaded journey on a single-decker bus because I used to gun them with my dad. So I was familiar with... But I had the bird's-eye view. I'm sitting at the back seat and then it just dawns on you when the gates open you think, oh, fucking hell, what is this? Were you worried or anything? I'm not so much worried. Probably apprehensive, if you don't know because you don't know. You hear all these stories about fucking what goes on and whatever you hear about what goes on, I've actually lost them when it happens. So the bus pulls on and all you hear, and if they talk, it's just shouting of all, right, fucking listen to your name and everybody's all sitting quiet. And within the first three or four names, by Johnny Bravel with a moustache, he's called off the bus, right, march, refused to march, cut a slap and he was marching, but he wasn't even marching. He was trying to march, kicked up the arse right into the reception. So that was a kind of thing for us to go, oh, the leader's march and so, next name they shouted, oh, fucking off the bus. And I remember the first time because I was hungry and in the detention centre there was loads of food, chips and different things like that, and I remember sitting at the table making a sandwich for the chips. Now we can get a bite at it. Just about to eat this sandwich and there was a big abaddonion screw, slapped it right out my hand and screaming at me, there'll be no chip but he's here lad, he got up, dragged me up like that. So he sat down in the chair, feet together, ankles together, knife and fork, half the chip, take half the chip and then a slice of partly the bread. That's how you've eaten in here and I thought, fucking hell man, where have I just landed? So where does that date they were at? Is that trying to discipline them? Ah, it's discipline. The whole element here, it's actually a programme for, they were downgrading the Bostos, the Bostos was 18 months, the discipline was too long, so what they called it was a short, sharp shot, was to frighten the life of the people who were coming in on the hope that they're not going to commit any more offences. But I'd already been frightened as I could anyway in Black Hill, so the fear element was gone, but I had to understand what did I do? How did I cope with this fucking new environment? And maybe about six or seven years, maybe never even had a hair on my face and we had to shave in the morning, and one of the things was you get a command in the morning, buy your doors, so you have to stand in the hallway with a pair of shorts on, slifers, a towel over your left hand, your plastic mug and your toothpaste and Mark Single fell down into what they call the ablutions. I thought, ablutions? What the fuck's ablutions? It's the toilets, but it's all military-grade. It sounds like Lankin Dansen. So, and I remember this other ginger-headed Irish crew, Northern Irish crew, and as you go into the ablutions, the toilets, razor, so he's gained Peter razor, came to me, razor and I went, no thanks, poof, slap me in the side of the head, razor, no thanks, again, you stand there, somebody else came down, razor, no thank you, sir, and I thought, alright, that's what you have to say, no thank you, sir. So he's went, razor, I went, no thank you, sir, and he's went, you fucking will! It was like that Tango advert nine years ago, somebody started my slat, it was like multiple, an octopus had near, he's something at the matrix, it's that fast, and it's only when I'm not in the mirror, I kept the plastic thing on the razor and the kid and I'm shaving, but I've got these big red-hand youngsters on my fucking face in my body, and I thought, I need to pick my gear up for you, I need to be switched on, I need to be in tune with all this, so apparently you go through there and then don't eat breakfast, and then if you breakfast to the gymnasium, and then the sports field where you've got to try and get a mile on, and I used to run cross-country for the school when I was at school, but I'd forgotten I'd done a three-month remand lying on my fucking bed, so when I volunteered, I used to do some cross-country running. Did you have a tool, every deal you were in? I worked. Do you always have a tool on you? I know that one, I learned after that one the time to get a tool, the only tool was me, I was a fucking tool. Were all tools, they had total command. Did they? No conversations with anybody at all. What was the reconviction rate of boys re-offending again? Was it high then? I'm not too sure. I'm not fucking frightened of life, it's quite a lot of them. Do you think it was enough or do you think it made you rebel? No, something for me, I'd already been, I was out in bail for a, I don't want bail, I was taken up for another charge for a possession of fire on, so when I get released for the detention centre, I was right to court and then came back up and went and got the 12 months, young offenders institution and next door to the detention centre Rangolin Oco and that's where I met a whole load of crazy fuckers. One, and particularly it stands out was James O'Neill, Neillie, he's felt it was Neillie Revarm, he was always making fucking improvised explosive devices with matches and gas canisters but he ran the whole jail and Who was he for? He was for Ballornock, quite a big family, a couple of brothers but Neillie was the heady, what you would call the jail gang, it was called the Glonocal Wolves, specifically targeted sex offenders because at that time they were mingling they were in the same association, so in order to get into the Glonocal Wolves you needed to do a sex offender, either stab them, slash them, coarsed them or scald it, something had to happen to them before you get in. Certain people go to pass, I go to pass because I'd rather done detention and I was in for a firearm, so it was a big offence for a young offender and what I remember of it Neillie was kind of strange, he was very clever and manipulative because I remember on one occasion he said come and see this for he's opened a cell door and he said to this obviously it was a sex offender I didn't even know what it was all about he said show Paul what you're going to do tonight so he stood on the chair, Neillie's got the towel and the windows opened up out the way in Glonocal so Neillie's put the bag knot with the towel on it put it around the boys neck and then said no you're going to do this later on he said aye he just kicked the chair away if I'm left I'm dangling I know I'm laughing, I shouldn't laugh maybe I should laugh I don't want to anyway so Neillie shut the door and casually we're going down for lunch so we're sitting at the table and the next thing the alarm bell goes the guy got cut down but there was a few people at the door and Neillie got dressed and he's no longer here Neillie was responsible for there was a home office inquiry into the fatalities and the attempted suicides and if they didn't want to hang themselves to give them a blade to see how sharp it was and if you're serious about being wrong about why you molested that kid or whatever it is shows how deep a cut you can do in your wrist in your ankles and they done it You think he killed a few people in there? No killed them but he made them kill themselves He made them kill themselves but there's a few that survived so that was my introduction so you were seeing deaths and violence I don't actually seen the deaths James to be honest with you in my mind this guy is dead but whether he did or not I don't know but there was a few So you used to get the rope hang them up in my chair No no it was a chill he split the chill in two we razor blade and then tighten knots and then we set it up but one of the things that he said to us was and the workshop and the textile industry in England and Oco we seen the ginger Irish screw Northern Irish screw again and I've looked at him and I thought what the fuck that was something that slapped me for no taking the razor properly totally different attitude in the young offenders they don't talk like that and we never knew any better so we decided I told nearly the story and he said alright watch us and I never knew I was thinking watch us I watched them since they kicked the fucking chair away and left the boy hanging for the or the non singing for the windy and long after it there's a bucket of shit that's going to get put over a screw's head and it did have and whoever done it it was a big egg fe dandy that was his way into getting into the glonocal wolves and I know it's disgusting and it is really disgusting but so was the way we were treated and it was a thing where nearly went it's amazing what you can do in here and I remember the noise of the screw pulling the bucket off like and he's thrown up and fucking all out and the smell so that's what I remember about it this is the environment that you're loving on and knives going missing through the cookhouse just devilment every day hellhole what was it like being mixed with the nonces then because obviously now they've got their separate units and separate lines well we didn't know so you didn't know anybody's connections just another prisoner but what tend to happen is you get a couple of decent screws that would mark people's cards and say watch I'm a fucking sex offender and that was nearly kind of the way the addition of a bit of punishment because you always said well the kids couldn't do anything for themselves so we were fucking dead and he did and he didn't mess them so you went into Shorts prison in 85 to 86 what was that charge again that was firearms I was involved in a situation with a guy called Russell Sturton I'd already been fitted up in the past James so it was nothing new to hear somebody's going to try and fit me up but this was totally different Russell Sturton was working with STV studios on an expose into the drug squad and how they're trying to get him to manipulate and put drugs into my car I didn't really believe it at first until I went down to STV studios heard what was going on and then me and Russell had a meeting on Bolognawch service station and one of these coppers was off duty obviously seeing me talking to Russell waited till he went away and he came over and tapped me in the back and said I'd like to have a word with you and I knew his face but I never recognised him without his heart he identified he's a cop and I thought what the fuck are you talking to me for but he's made himself out and he's going to fit you up so where's a cop tell me what I've already been told by the STV and Russell I'm on red alert James so I've asked him I've been look why are you telling me this and he made an excuse on the basis that he's looking for a shotgun I'm thinking I've got a couple of gand in the house I'm thinking I'm going to pay him because I know they're using recording devices for Russell starting STVs wiring them up and I thought I want to get wired that out because I need to capture that so and take and they can't believe somebody asking you this I'll tell you that somebody else is somebody else is going to fight you up so you've got a situation there where it was quite clear on the basis that I had a couple of grand and I thought I'm going to give him four or five grand to make sure that what he's saying is I can repeat it I can go and get wired up but it soon became apparent that the couple of grand was no needy he was looking for a shotgun I've already had a couple anyway cost a hundred quid each so I go to a situation where I thought I can do this so I went down to the STV studio told them what I'm doing they didn't want nothing to do with it because it's creating a criminal offence me having a shotgun to go on a meeting where I've been wired up so they didn't want nothing to do with it so I've done it myself in England I've got a defence called U.S an Asian provocateur in Scotland I've no goer I've got a certificate for a shotgun and I've had so I've got three years for it and that's what I went into the prison for for the three years for not having a firearm certificate Was you in YO's style? No no that was my first adult sentence What was that like for you? That was strange when you go back to Berlin and you're waiting to get moved to Glenorco I'd already done the Glenorco but that was actually an adult prison at the time as well and when I get moved to Shorts it was kind of a harsh regime but they were building a new prison got to meet a lot of new people in there and then the new show prison something happened there was another guy called John Gallach had a lifer who was in there he came down from Peterhead prison to take over the jail he never got to take over the jail they were always very wary of the young crews and we were part of the young crews at the time and I was another friend of mine James McLean he was in there and he challenged him on the exercise because somebody broke into the canteen and one of the do-gooders from Peterhead they came down and demanded that we should surrender to the tobacco and the chocolate and get back to the screws and then fuck yous so they got offered on the football patch and the strange thing about the football patch is it was always Celtic supporters versus ranger supporters sometimes the A side sometimes tenor side but you always had spectators out to watch it and this occasion because it was a challenge there was 40 years and two old uptick so they never done it so right away you link up with people for young offenders and there's bonds there that you become part of the prison gang we're all equal who was your closest pal that stays James McLean he was in another one but I got to know Jim Healy who was a younger brother than Mick Healy and I was another guy for Yershire and it kicked off one time because John Gallagher get moved or he asked to get moved and Jock Donaldson was wanting to take a screw hostage to vent the anger about one of the gang being took away so I got a hold of Jock and I said what is it you want today and he says when the screw comes round and asks how much you want right your private cash he said I'm just going to drag him on the cell and lock the door so that means he's not involving anybody else so my job is to make sure he's got enough provisions and bread or these sort of things chocolate and my job was then to phone the newspapers to tell them the demands so I'm waiting in the queue to phone the newspapers and heard the screaming and Jock Donaldson standing at the top at the fucking stairs with a blade that screws neck and the five or six guys that I knew well were then big, big sentences and what I can remember is maybe a year before it there was a riot in Balini and there was a guy called Bongo McLeish who was doing six months for shoplifting got himself involved in the riot in Balini and got himself 10 years can sec on 36 months and I'm looking at these guys that are already done 10 years and 15 years they're going to get hard time yet so I had to do something and what I'd done was I knew the screw who get held hostage, Hugh Lees I knew him for the young offenders he was never violent, he was just an honest decent guy Danny's job and I was asked to kind of calm things down but but if you date with the written authority cos he's the only authority person in there he's the only one that can say yes or no so I wrote a note out on the basis that he's asking me to be a neutral body in the negotiations which means I'm no for it and I'm no against it and the reason why I've done it is because I knew about the law on mutiny what happens on a ship so you've got a crown authority, you've got a crown prison officer that's allowing me to speak on behalf of him and the hostage takers which turns out worked in my favour because I ended up going as a witness for all the guys and said I could never have resolved the dispute if it would be for them so I proved that although I get the lawful authority to speak I couldn't have done it without them so I then gave them the lawful authority through that so they all get found not guilty apart from jock donelson who played guilty to it anyway so it was a bit of a fucking scary moment what was that like then for such a young age poll for ages of 20 21 getting caught with shotguns guns, den or your dummies then it's just a way of life James it was something that you didn't know I'm not sitting trattied down play and saying you didn't know any better but it was just when you're associated with older people when I say older people maybe 5 years 10 year old on that you get a frame of mind where somebody doesn't want to move a shotgun that was always I'll do that did you like the buzz for that poll? I liked the fact that you'd been involved at the time I just liked it I just felt it was over all bonkers all bonkers the money was not so much relevant but you always go up money James but it was just the fact that you're involved with people when that's what I liked you went to a prison called Pentonville that sounds like something in America Pentonville, aye that's a Victorian English replica that's probably worse than fucking Valinnie believe it or not I get put to Pentonville when I got arrested in 1997 right for court right down to the SEG unit in Pentonville because they don't have category of prisoners I never knew there was one category I just thought any time I got into prison it's usually looking into the block anyway so I just never thought I would have heard about it until somebody gave us a newspaper done and that first night I'm sitting reading it and I'm lying in my bed and I hear this right on the newspaper and I looked at it and it was the biggest fucking cockroach you've ever seen it's like a big thing like that and it's staring into my face going it's all like oh it's a flicked newspaper or this thing shot right out of the cell I've jumped up and seen another two so I've got my boots on and I've sounded the bed with water thinking I've created a moat I've got a safe haven didn't it work so I've put my trousers in my socks tissues in my fucking ears up my nose and decided I'm having it it's great looking at it he's losing his shit man I'm having a go with these fuckers it's like Danny River does stamping your feet and you've got all these cockroaches I kicked them behind the cell door and then next morning a governor comes in and sees you because you're in your in-segregation and it's morning for us, I'm a morning governor any complaints about yes two two? you're just in this for us what's the first one? I said I got porridge this morning and there was sugar in it because you're in England now you put salt in them in Scotland and there's the other one she's overcrowding's terrible governor how would you know you're just in the prison I said look behind that door all the cockroaches are all lined up and he laughed and went you don't need to worry about that shortly and I never knew what he meant but I did later on because my cell door can fly and all right you get yourself ready I go into another prison I ended up getting took for there I never knew where it was going and it was a pleasant surprise at a brand new prison Bellmarsh it was and I thought it's a four-star hotel, fucking nice and clean Nacock roti's I don't know at that time anyway but Penterville was I don't know I'll use this term loosely but it was a fucking shit was that? compared to Ballanais so you had a break you had a ten-year period where you never got to jail what was your life like then from 85 to 95? 85 no I'd been in and out prison I never got out of the shops until 1989-90 that was 50 a free well the whole chronology was I got three months detention community detention and I got 12 months and then for the 12 months I got another nine months and then I got an 18 months I had out prison sentence and then I got a three-year prison sentence and then I got out run about 1989-90 and then you had a five-year period where you never got to jail for 1995-95 I was on the land in 1991 I was through it in 1998 so you never had a break in 1992 no no no it's just something that's what people would say there are many kids have you got and I've got five and they say why the age difference that's my previous good vaccines so technically this is the longest I've ever been out since I was a teenager I've been out 18 years and it's something that's probably been the hardest thing but if you're going through the chronology, the prison sentence and I never really had a break I was like this revolving door or the magic elastic band that you go out and come back in so a successful criminal doesn't get caught there million percent and a lot of people turn running and think that's the glamorous life isn't it? You sit in the prison you're in or you're getting a visit you might as well sit up for that table at the end of the visit and walk away you've fucked, that's the one the judge of Disney gave you that sentence you've given yourself that sentence and that's what it is so your family goes through it as well a lot of people say well you should have made a thought for what you're doing and that's probably right but for any younger audience to ward Sunday that's in the jail I always remember this visitors walk out they've got to give back their sentence and it's not nice I've cried a few times, I don't mind admitting it but you get your tears dry up and you end up with your eyes like sandpaper but it's not being hard it's just being accustomed to no showing emotions cos a lot of people, especially the screws like to see it so when you went to Belmarsh what was that like totally different I've heard the Belmarsh before and I remember walking down this Glynoco's got a big corridor they called it at the Russian front anybody who's been in there will know cos somewhere I'm used to have to polish the fucking hangover they were doing but this one was just something else this was a corridor that 231 prison and it was always another prison and don't you know what you would call H Block 4 and the first time in there I was just glad it was a nice tidy place single cell sink, toilet food was not too bad canteen was alright and I like to have a puff cos I'm thinking was it harsh in I have a bit of solid or a bit of black and I'm thinking how do I get a smoke and that preoccupied me how do you get a smoke and while I get preoccupied as a Scotty screw it was in there and they obviously look at your prison files and I've always been on the decent jobs on the Nick probably you get their jobs to keep the peace and everything like that but I got offered a laundry job on the wing and I took it and I get introduced to my working partner a guy called Adnan Hoshan he was an Iraqi but with dual nationality with British and Iraqi nationality and he was in for hijacking a Sudanese Airbus hijacking it for Sudan diverting it to Dusseldorf in Germany and then refueling to Stansted and then sort of political asylum and what have you done it for first terrorist? well he charged for terrorism and I'm thinking it didn't look like that very mild mannered sport because I'm getting to know him I get to know his story it turns out he's a West End actor on theatre and he got money together to go and save his family in Sudan he went over there and paid a few bribes apparently the family got out and they got stopped at the next checkpoint and then the same thing happened again so he ran out of money ran out of patience and I'd asked him I was curious I went how did you hijack the plane and he gave me a story about how westerners like spicy foods and I'm thinking right where the fuck that's conversation with spicy foods I went right and he went but we the people that like spicy food liked brown sauce, HP sauce and I'm thinking right what next? he said I used the sauce for it I put black tape on it held upside down like a grenade that's what he and I thought why did you have HP sauce? he went I like it but there's a photograph of Big Ben on it reminds me he being safe and I thought it's a chance he's I don't know if it's a one-off but I don't know many airplanes or anybody that's fucking put black tape on it hijacked the plane with a German grenade and then I said to him why did you do it? the family's going to get killed so he was about a pariah in the newspapers anyway and the media the whole western world was against them so they had Adnan Hoshan's defence and the rest of them was to make sure that they had a duress an English law that they wouldn't have done that if life was not a risk or their family's life was not a risk he ran quite a tidy defence and they won his case and anybody that's looking to fact check Adnan Hoshan at the sauce bottle that's one of the characters that I met and then during the course he had Adnan tell me a story another Scottish boy came on Stephen Tommy he's deaf we orange guy we ranger the photo he gave me some tobacco and said you have to go on the exercise yard tomorrow to see who the IRA I thought the IRA want to see me first if you don't go on you need to go I'm out on exercise and I remember another Scottish guy with grey hair and he's walking my name's Paul McCoy and I had to say to him after the second lap you need to fuck off here because I might be on a bit of trouble and he surprised me by saying I'm away if you're in trouble I'm in trouble I went no no no you don't fight with these sort of people he went who? I went it's the IRA and he said it's me he was the IRA he was on remand for the mortar bomb attack and I thought we had a lot in common he stayed in Lansfield Key I remember seeing surveillance in Lansfield Key I thought it was for me it's obviously for him and then I go to the night of Gritty and I said what can I do for him he said could you get me a hard guy and I thought a hard guy and try to get a fucking I'm trying to cut a joint and I don't want it to look like Morgan said I've never been asked it so there's always a way to get something so I was being truthful leave it with me and I'll see what can be done no blowing my own trumpet to see if it could there's always something that can be done did he have a brother or something coming up? I wanted to ask him this was a fucking weird thing I said to him so what colour was your hair before we were out and he said ginger and I thought ginger I ain't fucking buying a hard guy so I thought what he did is as long as you've been on your mind he said three years I said why do you need to try to dye your hair he said I need somebody that's already identified as the guy with the ginger hair I said if you obviously go and dye in the house but I can get my wife to get another new bottle I went do that because that way you know the colour there's variations of different colours I'll never fucking dye tell my life first the ginger hair I called off the exercise to go up to what you call the bubble where you get clothes that's been sent in socks, underpants, boxers t-shirts track suits and that's when I met another guy called Edgar Pierce an older guy he was called the Mardi Gras bomber and he was famous for putting explosives in Sainsbury's bags and leaving them back in that case but he had the biggest pair of drawers with a massive pair of underpants even the screw was laughing going Edgar come on look at this one and there's a story because he ended up getting that much abuse with it he ditched them but they were brand new and I thought as an idea how walking socks so I told Mick the IRA boy to get his wife to put her dye in the socks let it dry out and then send them in along with t-shirts, boxers and they got them and that was the day I got elevated to the laundry man to being the laundry man and the barber and I've never caught a hair in my fucking life So you thought you were going to potentially the IRA one to maybe do you? I don't know, I'm no anti-politic and yet he's wanting a bottle of fucking hair dye No, I think it's because I'm for you No, I think the whole position was I'm Scottish, I'm Glaswegian I'm one of these type of people sort of thing, Glaswegian and that's just a request that's probably his first time and I'm a seasoned veteran by that time so by the time I get he's hair dry I need to look for a stash before I do anything and because I'm in the laundry room I've seen Edgar Pearce's thunder pants lying there and I thought that's a cracker I've got a Marsbar, I've turned the drawers so you don't know there's always some of these that was in the laundry bag the socks were in the laundry bag and then at night time I was meeting my haircut my barber but I did get somebody who was cutting hair to getting cut max hair first somebody on the phone to keep watch and then somebody on the landing to prevent somebody from coming up for the sale and these present cells you've got a sink so when he's sitting down in the sink I've got tepid water, there's a mirror on it but you can't see it so I've got this sock wrapped it into the tepid water where it's fluorescent, fucking on a lot of high vis jacket and I thought that's a bit severe going for a grey to this I'm rubbing it on his hair and my hands look to do a smoke 300 fucking cigarettes a day and I've got his eyebrows so we're going for it here we're going for it and I'm getting ready for rolling a bit and I've been there you go Max he's dried his hair, jumped up looking at me and I went fucking perfect but we've already put my name down for pull and the rules are they keep the white ball, all the rest of the balls are in there for security reasons in case somebody puts it in a sock and whacks them or the pull queued somebody gets whacked so you need to sign them out and I've got his screw and he's sitting there in the crossword and he's shouting, fire his galica for pull so I'm there anyway I'm trying to get this fucking ginger die off my hands and I remember taking it but it was still couldn't have come off so I've took the ball and I've signed for it so I'm playing on the table with the ball waiting for this Mc taking these on the top landing and it was like a catwalk I've looked up and I'm trying to look away because there's other prisoners going this is always a new guy on the wing it wasn't it, Sammy just had himself swaggering down the fucking styles gets to the desk with the screw he's given the pull queue and he's done a double take next thing he's lifted the phone the alarm bells went off everybody's locked up because he's changed his identity and they never found the die so I had to top it up every two or three months and I did make a throw away comment but I think it was took the wrong way maybe I've no explaining it properly but I wasn't making any disrespect towards people who have died for the cause physically died for the cause but after the fourth or fifth thing I said to Mac I must be the only guy who died for the cause that many times which was because you did die and whether it worked for Mc Court I don't know but that was one of the funniest episodes just seeing the screws face and the heard die and I thought there were loads of characters in here did they get set with you know I'm not too sure what happened I got moved away before it and I think it did get convicted I'm not too sure whether the heard die worked or not Bill Marsh has got some heavy names in it perhaps the categories in it well we were that's kind of it's still very secure but there's a place called the SSU which is a super secure unit that's where you get double catty that was in it so no I want to see it again but I was secure even the family to get visits how that used to work was my sister first came down and had a closed visit and the cops had to you've got to put down who you want to come and visit you the prison staff take the details and then they put it out to the nearest local authority who then send local cops to the door they take photographs to prove who she is they send the photographs back and then when they turn up at prison they take the fingerprints and that photograph should match up with the photographs that the police had took and that's the only way you can what were you doing down England? I was buzzing I came down just on the chance to see my extended family and genuinely that day I was going to click some photographs with my old mate Arthur Sutty I've interviewed a lot of people now Pauls you know I'm not daft, some people came on the show and I go fucking idiot you're talking pish but yourself and not to blow smoke up your ass but everybody I speak to for the boat my England to the top of Scotland you're very well respected everybody speaks very highly of you why is that? it's true to you and you know blowing smoke up your innards and you're keeping it real true basically and it's not the Johnny Bravo scenario I've never liked bullies I don't like bullies and if I'm asked a question I'll answer it as best as I can if it hurts somebody I'll try and amend what I've got to say so it doesn't hurt them but there are people who are due their ears to be bashed and I'm no one for hoarding back either so you tell it how the strange thing about it is the Iraqi guy that I met Adnan Horshan who hijacked the Sudanese Airbus who took hostage with Charles Bronson and I told the whole story about that and I said to him what happened with Charlie Bronson he said oh he's mad he said they bust a pillow gave them a feather each 20,000 socks often told them to tickle his feet he's never laughed for a while and he said we've just commuted one death situation and they'd be hijacked and kidnapped for this so Charlie Bronson's demand was a couple of cheeseburgers and a helicopter and they'd wanted Adnan to fly it and then Charlie Bronson's mind is because he's hijacked and they are flying it would then follow that he can fly a helicopter doesn't he work like that so he told him if he didn't get the cheeseburgers he was going to start eating the hostages mad I think he might be getting it I hope he does because he's done me on some nuns he's Sunday her joy pile used to look after him in it he's very well got but hopefully he gets given a chance and gets his freedom so good luck to him you went to Phil Sutton after Bill Marsh what was that charge it was the same charge James they moved you you don't get asked to move they just came in and moved you no for Bill Marsh Bill Marsh is a holding prison it's not a long term it's not somewhere you do your long term prisoning or your sentence rather so they moved me for Bill Marsh to Phil Sutton and what I never knew when I arrived in Phil Sutton was I met another couple of IRAs guys but I never knew I was the subject to an internal IRA investigation in the prison because there was a a kind of spurious newspaper article saying I had been providing loyalists with firearms and load of bullets enough to get your fucking a bit of attention so same thing again IRA wants to see me in the exercise yard and then it went for the out of the football fields and there's three or four football fields and there's visitors changing rooms for other football teams that come in but that's usually where all the punishments happen and all the rest of it so that's where the kangaroo courts are that's where things happen and I was asked to go and attend to speak to this guy no for me to speak he's wanted to speak to me and it turns out there wasn't a lot of talk there was to do a lot of listening but in a nice way they were nice about it and what they had said to us is do you realise why you're here? and I went no but I'm sure you're going to tell me you fucking fuzzwers we know you know who he is which means the IRA and we know you know who he is which is a loyalist and I went right he says in my mind that makes you a capitalist and that good or bad depends on what it is I said does that hat he's wearing just about and see before you go just so I'd let you know we've got nanna taught her to give you in here but tell your brother I won't forget what you've done in 1975 and I thought fucking wow so they're intelligence galon they know everyone James they know I'm not involved with them it was to do with the machine guns and explosives they think it's terrorism the truth about it was how did your brother do I'm not too sure but somebody said he had not won an IRA or held them hostage or there was a bomb in Wakefield prison I was only a young boy I was fucking 10, 11 how many is in your family club? five I mean you're the youngest? no I've got a young sister four sisters Franklin prison after full setting that was a three year stunt what was that for? no no Franklin prison was again moved under the under the basis that when I took to Belmhurst and I got found guilty at the old Bailey they originally gave me 45 years it was 15 years, 15 years, 10 years and I thought I thought I was getting 10 years I was getting the maximum anyway James there was no doubt about that but I was budgeted for 10 years and then when I heard the 15 the 15 and the rest of it I thought I'm five years out somewhere took a couple of steps down the stairs and then I heard a familiar voice calling his back earth the judge had exceeded his powers so he had to reduce it, the maximum was a 10 so I get 10, 10 and 5 and I thanked him for it or unconcurrent it was the same sentence going through Belmhurst to full setting to full setting to Franklin that's the same sentence so it was just all demands and then your sentence what was Franklin like? Franklin was a good player I like Franklin they ran quite a good regime there I'd done my course material there for the substance abuse enhanced thinking skills cognitive awareness and it was kind of funny I got in row in the psychology course on full setting and I was only two days in it and it didn't get moved but Franklin don't do psychology courses the only way they could swap it it gave me a cookery course and I thought that's a bit of a leap going through psychology cookery courses so I just got my head down met the Manchester boys and then just started working away in the circuits and then playing badminton and getting myself fat you're a good badminton player I thought I wasn't your player a good badminton player you end up on average a mile so I was no bad I was average what kind of cats were you in with then? I saw Treboy, Doubleway, Sengway saw high risk or the psychopaths what boys you met were you in with did you meet any pals there? I met a cult of boys again another Irish boy crazy boy who'd escaped a cult of Dutch prisons and that was him over in the UK to finish his sentence met a cult of Manchester boys one of the strangest ones was when I went to Franklin when the movie you don't get told you don't move so you can't take any food with you and it's a normal hospital situation where you go and get checked and then back onto the wing and there was another Scottish guy there Grant Turnbull he gave me what you call a food parcel a couple of sausages, bits of bacon a couple of eggs, bits of bread and I thought fuck I'm going to make a breakfast talking beans and different things like that but what I never knew was the kitchen that I'm using they don't cook bacon in it don't cook pork in it it was a Muslim yard the rastafarian kitchen and I met one of the rasta boys in Belmhurst and I saved my bacon if I want it about a word because I had the bacon under the grill pan and I could sense a bit of tension because there were three or five of them standing they all looked like big basketball players didn't matter what they were they always looked to fucking for and I'm thinking I'm buying interval here so I put my oil in the frying pan if that's all you had James, there are no weapons you go on a tooth in my frying pan if you need to and then Zebby a rasta guy I knew was in for a contract killing called me a Scottish soldier gave us a cuddle but he's looked over my shoulder and went what the fuck he's bacon under the grill so I told him I'd wash it I said look that's how I wash it no you can't wash it you use bacon you just can't wash it for I thought not a problem I'll go down and ask for a new one and he went no there's a screw in there called Markham he used to do a bit of training but I think he took me a story steroids because he was he was puffed out and he was always fucking he was always a raraf I've tried to show off to one of the female screws on the young blonde thing she was tired a bit of it enough but he was like a Charlie potato in the castle I've seen a few screws like that they don't intimidate me James I just whacked a grill pan he's sitting at his desk with two minders so I've come walking down he obviously knew who I was they didn't even get intelligence reports they're familiar they showed photographs so they recognise you on the wing so I went over and said to him excuse me sir and he's went yes Ferris how can I help you I said I'd like to get a new grill pan he went really sat back and folded his arms he thought I'm asking for a new grill pan for me I'm the big gangster in the jail he said what's wrong with it I said it's unclean never told them anything because you can't tell the story to him it's a racial thing right I said it's unclean he said it's unclean I said why don't you clean it I said why don't you just get a fucking grill pan because they'll bend the storeroom in a box take it up put a screw on it and put the handle back on what if I don't bang so I've hurt the riot bell the reason I've hurt the riot bell is because somebody more senior rank than him like a governor has got to come on to the wing to say what happened so anyway I get ruffled threw into the cell and they think I'm not even in the fucking jail I know I've not even got my breakfast yet really on my food short time later door opens everybody's locked up door opens the screw in the house station the other ones be fucking plastic shields something that he judged red all of a sudden the shields part like the fucking red scene this governor appears right Ferris what's the problem I said is there none did you hurt the riot bell for I said because that guy over there the senior officer mark him whatever has domestic problems as he shouldn't bring it into prison he's got a terrible attitude and if he spoke to me like that and the outsider smacked him right over the fucking head with a frying pan he says what about the frying pan and I said I never got a chance to explain to him I went into the wrong kitchen I've grilled some bacon and I've harassed a fairy in kitchen told them I'd clean it and they said no it's unclean fall I'd like a new one I said so I'm either going to get a new one or I'm going to have to be wrong about where these yardies and he said is it that serious I went it's only a grill pan you must have something in the store he said so forget your grill pan is that a funny stuff right there get a man a grill pan so that was a busties bubble that one so I go to grill pan gave him it back and walking along a landing to the Michael Jordan basketball player stepped on and went the boss wants to see you the head of the yardie and I thought here we go so it's a cell with a curtain shot and it's a big glow like that he's got his a cone it's full of weed and then he's going up and the whole cell's lighting up but it's noticeable a bit of Bob Marlin in the background he's gone you know Zebe he's met her thanks for the grill pan I'm fucking stoned anyway I was fucking walking I kept my food for later on but I went back to the kitchen I brought my kitchen and I'm telling people the story they're going off they all loved it because they hated this Michael he was a bit of a bully so I ended up and made my peace with him and then they called us out to get done to the medical one for any other reasons James had psoriasis I needed to get done and get my creams so at this occasion Grant Turnbull he had HIV at the time and was on his medication he's always up and down and a strange thing happened where he was in the waiting room excuse me he was in the waiting room and he said Paul watch us he shouted in Harold Shipman Harold Shipman's the mass fucking killed everybody as in the hospital wing and what separates the cell that we ran and the medical unit and the hospital wing is just a court yard just a garden where they couldn't sit but Grant's shouting through the windows to him what medication should I get so Grant's got a fucking pen in the face of failure getting diagnosed where his crack fought you wouldn't be trusting him to on your medication but the funny story was Shipman get moved because Grant's and Grant Turnbulls and told the doctor what he should be getting and the doctors thinking who the fuck's talking to him because they give you non-expensive medication and the famous one in Balini it was all three it didn't matter what was running with your leg hanging off or fucking somebody big scar down there or the smashedy bits all three paracetamol on your way so Grant's asking for specific medication so Shipman get moved so that's the kind of they were separated they were in the non-swing what was it like being stonepull on the green in the jail, we no paranoid as fuck no just one of the ones I thought it's a fucking five star hotel you've got your cooking facilities and a strange thing happened as well in my first day they've given me an application form to fill in to go back and spend the rest of my time in the Scottish prison I've been in the Scottish prison James what I've recognised English prison as I've looked at the canteen list and I thought after the three pages it saw spices and rice and whatever else and then you get a meat section they go to Butchers via your stuff what? you don't need to eat prison food you cook your own stuff and what you go on there is you're allowed to take your private cash and then if you had a decent job which I ended up getting you getting another 15 so you get 45 qued a week to shop to your bind we had one of the deep freezers that was full we had chicken breast fish was that to keep you happy? I think it's because you're in a long term prison they want to kind of make yourself sufficient the more the ghee the more you're going to lose so Sunday kicks off there's three standards there's an enhanced where you get £30 there's a standard where you get 30 qued you get something and basic is just basically you get four qued you don't even get enough for tobacco so this one it's an incentive to keep your head down and go on with and I ended up that's where I learned to cook there was Chinese people smugglers, Asian guys and their mums taught them how to cook and they teach me how to cook so from four long I'm wrapping up Chinese curries, kebab and then a couple of Irish boys and I was making the pachyn and then because you've got a fridge freezer you've got ice cubes pachyn was what they used to do this was ingenious right their dad had used a mixture of rice and potato and the triangle of the pool table and the snooker table always went missing and you were allowed an iron in your cell if you were having a visit or your iron in your clothes and the pots for the kitchen so what they'd done with the triangle was put the the iron inverted upside down in the triangle and then put the pot on top of the iron that heats the pot up and over a weekend they used to take all their doors so the smell would be and over a weekend they'd probably get about two litres of pachyn and there was a straw a tube that comes out of the pot that goes into a plastic bag that's shaped like a diamond and then the bottom of the bag it just drips so the condensation they're taking all the alcohol out that's the fucking dynamite that stuff oh boy are you done I only mind I go to meet Kevin Linn Catwalk Kevin he's called right he's family he would have been a champion boxer but he fitted up for a contract killing and he came in one day and he's went for how you doing my name's Kevin I went how you doing Kevin he's went that one is jellydite and that one is dynamite you get any trouble when he'll let me know and I thought words have been set up after a certain joy file stuff that you saw girls fucking tobacco phone cards, puff and then he says what you doing Friday I thought what you doing Friday you're ending a tear I know honestly he was funny he's fucked Kevin I said what you doing Friday going to the pub going to the pub he's went mines in the cell so he'd shut the curtains out Kevin does he carry ok but he's a good boxer no right good at singing after the pachini sounding alright so what you get is clear bottles like that full of pachini and then Sunday would be sent up to get fresh orange and then my rice cubes and just sitting fucking puffing and having a drink and then eating so you work your day and you get your job done you go and do your education get your classy done don't do gymnasium and then Sunday was usually a lion a long lion so when I say how good it was you're still on prison you've still got your family leaving the table but a lot of fucking madness you try to make the most of a bad decision on it so when you go out then after your 10 your last sentence was that Durham no no this is all the same this is the same when I go out there was a a spuri a claim that McGraw had stabbed me or I had been stabbed during the thing and I get recalled for it or the rest it's supposed to be a shipment a fucking puff and nonsense police intelligence reports so do you get a recall for that? no I get recalled I get told by the social services that was my licence is now revoked meant I'm back on cat A which means I'm a danger to the public and I know what's happening James all they could do is arrest me and take me all the way down I didn't think I'd make that journey because you might get banged on the basis that they're saying you try to escape so I decided I'll go and hand myself over again and it's a good idea I got the guy who done the serialisation for the book David Leslie for News of the World Brian Anderson the photographer to make sure I get back down and hand myself over to Durham which is it was quite funny because I've never been in Durham there's a local cop station where I was in Durham we asked for directions so I've got no it's no suited up I'm smart enough I've got my holder and we're directed to this police station it turns out no to be a police station it's a police academy and as we're driving in a minibus a young people's coming in and there was an older a screw there who looked to me and went ah and their jaw'd the accent, you just missed them he thought it was a f***ing mcrew to get into the training college and he's buzzed the door open and I was getting up these sets of stairs and there's a big massive poster about be vigilant, be aware terrorism is everywhere and I thought I can't be on the rank place I'm just looking for a char's desk and as we came out I was like what the f*** is this and the same screw had said you lost son where is it you want to go I said I'll hand myself in and I told them so next thing he's had these ear-faces and he's come in and went put your hand put your hand in put your hand in put your hand in put your hand put your whole doll in the middle of the car park and put your hands behind your head and step back and I thought I'm a danger now before it was letting me in everywhere so they've all swooped and got us and took us to the right cop so at this time and they're all laughing and I remember there's another courtyard in there so I'm about getting about exercise and as a screw came up I went do you want some of your cigarettes? and I thought what a changing attitude normally you get f*** all in Scotland you get part for abuse so I went you say can I ask you a question depends see how far did you get in the training college and I talked to him and I got to the bank and he's went he's run away and told everyone where I got and it was a bit of a scandal because it breached order security so for there I ended up next day I got lwyrs, licence revoked took to Durham another shithole probably worse than Bellini I gained right down the seg because they don't hold catty prisoners and I was offered an inducement and they said to me look we don't want to keep you in the seg you've done mis to your sentence you're only recall there's a Scottish boy up there with a TV in his cell and I went is that a coloured one? so I banged up to get access to colour TV he was mad ranger supporter he knew all the crowd that I didn't get on with so it was a truce there was nothing happening and he was doing time for important cannabis and I remember the priest coming in and got a set of rosary beads and it was like the exorcist and I was like what a fucking rosary beads you're a phoenian and all of a sudden I get moved one day while he's at work and I put the rosary beads on his pillow I sent him a letter and I got word by a fucking found him after that so it was Durham was no as bad as Pentonville no as bad as Bellinie either but it was a shit hole so gyntrw i'n ffrwyr at then Paul I even know you spoke in the first podcast about the Copper Stratuset up in Kylje you just mentioned that they are a game is it always in the back of your mind that they were going to put one in your nut? I've experienced it personally on my own in Rossi 1984 when they kicked the door in there was three of them that was armed turns out only two of them should have been armed the ones going to get used on you and Ben? I think so especially in the nature professionally done I'm no criticising but going out into the hallway hands out stretch to identify I have no get anywhere both right up there left hand side of the face on the floor this one's kneeling in my back pushing the gun in so I can see him, I can look that way six feet two George Dixon put the gun in the back of my head and said what's the effect this is your little bastard you're going to get it and as he said that my partner at the time, Anne Marie they never knew there was a female in the house that kind of saved me I think and then it was part of my thinking well what else are you going to think James if that's happening are you right and then when Russell Sturton told me about the approach that's been done to him it's much as I didn't want to believe it I was just I'm on red alert I'm ready for anything anything at all what I'm driving about with my fucking guns and I'm thinking if they try it I'm going to give it to them first Do you think the hash played a partner as well No I never smoked, I never took nothing I was just on red alert and the only thing I did probably take is about a speed just to make sure I'm fucking I'm on alert I know what I've got to do I've got money to go and collect I've got money to go and do my business but I'm aware what's going to happen and then everything's not changed James when I got remandied in Balini for that that particular case and then you get the transcripts of the audio tapes that are done and more importantly one Russell Sturton had done he took it a visor out his car and put the pad in it and put a secret tape recording I think Russell had already threatened the cops at some stage anyway so they wanted to speak to him and ironically what had happened was a cop called Eric Mitchell a detective sergeant in Bird Street that pulled Russell over and Russell never got out his car he just put the window down and made just talking to this and this is what he said to him stop threatening the police officers Russell because your EPAL Paul tried it once and I can tell you here now he was nearly wasted he was nearly for a walk away up in the campsies one night and was never near a gone and if I think you're serious about threatening Polo's son you'll just be going on a night fishing trip and won't be coming back either so Russell knows he's wired up he just laughs and goes I would like that now there I've got it in the audio tape not me I might be accused of a lot of things but it's not a control request so when I'm on remand and I get this I'm actually reading a magazine and it's not a porn magazine it's a magazine I did read porn magazine and it was wrong but this occasion I'm reading this the thing about biometrics and it's to do with access control went to NASA where they're doing away with cards and IDs and the things you go to take to work there's your hands and your eyes and your voice so there's three levels to get in the second one is the palm scanner and the third one is your voice your iris and your palm scanner and I've focused on the voice the voice you can get a voice graph analyst test done because everybody's got a voice and distinguishable at a fingerprint and I was wanting this audio tape a serving police officer checked to make sure it's him and they didn't deny it and we were teed up for getting an American expert on the voice graph analyst and he admitted and quote that was his voice but he also said and dismissed the whole cross examination for Donald Funn he looked right to the jury and said ladies and gentlemen jury when you're dealing with severe criminals like him the police user a procedure called bluff and counter bluff now I didn't know where it fell out the door I started out and clapped it was a good fair play and we blagged it but the serious thing about it is see if there's no training course in Tally Allen that deals with bluff and counter bluff no only is it committed perjury the threats were real so that ended the paranoia so you do think that they were to kill you do you think they've got that pose at what they did then we've done it for it's an occupational hazard don't be going out and doing what you're doing and don't expect them to treat you because of bluff it's part and parcel of the game so when you got out in 2002 how have you managed a man with your reputation to stay out the last 18 years was there a time you had realised there's no for me anymore it was very early on and it was in the Belmars when I was unaware that I was under investigation with MI5 and security services not a lot of other agents and it's only when I got my productions your case file for my solicitor I've looked through it and seen all the surveillance reports and these witnesses never had names and I had the whole fucking alphabet near enough 23 years security services so I became aware that when you come the attention the level of these sort of people you're either going to give it up or you're going away for a long long time so that was my motivation to look at and go you never thought you'd come at the attention of these people I'm going to get my head down I'm going to go on my sentence so when I get released on the 21st of January 2002 I was met outside we read my chi because we wrote the book by that time but equally there was half a dozen reporters and I told them I was going straight they went and I said I can't I've got to go back to Glasgow and see my social work I've got a timescale on how to go and do this people laughed he's going straight let my candy change his sports first and foremost I ain't left her and I ain't got sports so it was a commitment to me and my family and my friends that stood by me and most importantly Reg's gave me that belief that he believed that I attended and I did just thoughts that Reg wasn't here to see the whole show but if it wasn't for Reg I wouldn't be sitting here with you do you miss him, Paul? I missed he was normally my partner in crime writing he was my mentor he was my previous social worker a good friend and somebody was very we called him the champion of lost causes because he always used to take people on that was just kind of fun and he would take them on and give them a bit of self-esteem give them a bit of faith back the system or whatever it was but he was quite a controversial figure Reg and out of all the books that he wrote and things that he'd done he was never credited because they said that he went native he went too much with me when he never he went professionally on what he believed on they didn't like me James they don't like them either so it was one of those situations where Reg kind of rocked the boat as far as establishment is concerned he's now writing books about corruption and it's something in which they see potential jurors reading stuff like that and going whoa it may be sitting at a trial further down the line going I'll read that book this is what they really fucking did gone's the day that they got into witness boxes with their uniforms and their medallions and they're taking his face values as a respectable witness it's all about what can you prove and fortunately for me I've been very lucky knowing the system for a young age having the right legal team and I've just exposed them continuously time after time after time and I'll still do it You become a fawn on the side pole No, a big jagging hill bush a big tumble weed droned on the side pole going like oh that's him again so aye and if they were doing the job they get paid today that's fair enough they went out with their remit they supplied maybe drugs so they're a drug dealer don't think you can do something like that and then jump behind a warrant card and a uniform and say you've gave that up you became a drug dealer you became a gangster we guns and that's how I viewed it I threatened them but I never threatened a cop I threatened somebody who was acting a gangster The biggest rivalry pole was Tam McGraw he was the biggest rivalry in Glasgow between years two at one point How did that start? There was no real rivalry I knew Tam McGraw for a metal I knew he was a grass for a metal and I knew I had to be careful was saying it and running about him so an adversary no for that start, no even for a metal I might have had a lot of money but you take away some of the stuff that you've been involved in like the Doyle Murders two innocent guys several innocent people getting convicted Tommy Cam ended up being related to me married my cousin and I always felt a re-run that misfortune a big fucking lumpy a guy like Tommy going on hunger strike to prove his innocence fighting his corner all the way and then you get this slippery bastard the fucking snake I called him and I tried to say it in one word and I could not say it in one word so I'll repeat it again he's a fucking snake and people now know what he's done and so did the copters very early on know what he's done so you can't have a drugs warf own ice cream vans when it was fuck out of David drugs it was today with ice cream vans there were no people in the runs and it was a personal dispute so the rivalry when we grew up we knew what he was talking about he was a dog and it was just one of these things where newspapers played up to Mr Dug this, Mr Dug that we only tolerated him because he had a fucking pub that was all right Joe Hanlon was working with so and I moved into an area I think I was going to wave for D division I ended up going through frying pan at a time he made sure I was all right I'll not forget time for that and I'll always walk so time doesn't like getting mentioned and things like that but I've got to mention this and wish you well and good luck so the papers so the papers blew it up because I've had Joe Steelew and TCO and they spent over 20 years in prison for a crime they didn't commit seeing loved ones dying while in prison on that aspect James I know I've seen your podcast right and you think the police intelligence garden do you think they never knew they never done it Of course they did, of course they did I but it went against how they teed up their crown witness Billy Love that all of a sudden was only a man for a robbery and they accepted the fact that he'd been identified as a fucking robber and now all of a sudden he couldn't have been on a robbery because he's sitting in the bar's pub listening to Tommy Campbell talking about lighting the fire so they knew they knew, they trusted it big case man that all these years on the Doyle family still haven't got any closure as well James it's one of the one of the situations where Tommy Campbell and Joe Steelew always maintained their integrity all the way throughout because it was only for them to point fingers to people and say I never done it they fucking done it I don't know if I could do it I don't know if I'd let them walk about but they did he was a I don't know if I'll keep going on about it, he's no here now anyway that shows you the strength of Joe in TC to strong men it shows you the hold that McGraw had over these cutters because they couldn't let him talk because it's going to expose all the rest of them for fattening up Joe Steelew and Tommy and Big Tambi and all the rest of them made Joe Granger a lot of people were unnecessary to put through the mill with that one and it's bad enough going to prison for something that you've done I've never been to prison for something I've never done I like to make that clear as well but I don't know if I'd have been able to go to prison for something I didn't do it's a different ballgame because I would have got involved in something I don't think I'd have got it out James it's quite obvious I don't I've probably done something and they're going to court and they say yeah I've done that but I've never done this the first podcast you were on Tommy Robinson get to mention it blew up it blew up and if I'm honest man I was just starting to laugh I probably had the widden spoon out because he mentioned it there was nothing in it you'd never mentioned anything no it was true it was blown out I have my own percent it went national but to clarify it I've gotten the elbow against Tommy Robinson if you've wanted to be running about waving Nazi flags and being more English than the English really wanted to be and then getting photographs taking with the Israeli defence force and big tanks I don't know where he's headed but he's obviously wanted to do something there's nothing for me I don't know him well enough but what I can criticise him for was a video that he'd done saying I'd been involved in several murders who is he try to make light of it and it turns out my only viewer was he keeps that up his security will need security and that was a throwaway comment and it ended up people contacting me saying Paul has security he's freaking out is there something going to happen to him it was just a throwaway comment it was just a throwaway comment on a fucking podcast it was nothing I tell you which it was James he travelled all the way from England up to a cost of a politics I'm no defending a politician what I couldn't get my head round is he never the asshole to go to Westminster to wait in John Berco coming out cos he said the exact same thing save Dory train fares or how he got up maybe he's friendly or he's really paid for his transport I don't know but he's something on his doorstep that he could have went and he decided to go and get somebody to connect a library or something like that in a coaster he's a bully and that's what I said that I was an antidote for a bully and if he's listening to this one it wasn't even meant like that but it wasn't and you'd ask for a debate and it's when people have jumped on it it's got a nice story it's done it a big girl's blouse it doesn't have a twist I probably had the wooden spoon out cos I'm thinking it's just creating more traffic towards my channel James it's your podcast you've got every right to ask of a relevant question yeah a game he's due but he came on the podcast after it and told what he's storing everybody's entitled to their views of course than their voice anyway it's done now people move on there's Neil Will, Tommy go and do your thing who was the maddest person you ever came across in your life and prison outside there's a few there's a few right some I can't even mention but they're not fucking mad but I'll give you one example James McLean James McLean we never knew how severe his deterioration and his mental health was good we should have and it's a funny story this one but it's not something to belittle on somebody that had a mental illness but we were asked to go and collect some money of an individual who owned a whole chain of aquariums selling topical fish and some of these fish was like 1500 quid and the whole rule of thumb was something like you get back and you catch some the off gardens telling them what they're driving where they stay, where they go it's just to unsettle them and they say you owe this money first of all you go and establish that they own the money certainly before you go anywhere you go and make sure they've got the money before you ask them we went, we won it we were guys and I was a field agent and when I got told the story when he came back I thought I'm a liveable this guy's got the owner of the aquarium shop and he's told them where he lives, where he's driving he's no moving James for the money he's denying the money but he's just changing the order it wasn't until James had interacted and said to him listen you, you fucker the fish are getting it the guy couldn't move and took the money out of the fucking page for it so there is a weak spot there he's more interested in his fish than life in lim so James was nearly was another one nearly a famous one for breaking into somebody's car taking a spark plug and putting it right in a plastic bag full of petrol and taping it up so when they jump in that I can't I've seen when the bonnet had this car went about 200 yards right into the crowd there is a lot of strange people maybe one cold one myself who takes one to no one who takes one to no one but there is a lot but again these things can't be right people talk about serious and organised crime the truth of it is there isn't a lot of organisation it's a newspaper that jazz it up and it's probably the only time I'll probably agree with a police statement I think it was Mr Warbler that said there's no such thing as organised crime as disorganised crime he's right to an extent because you have certain elements certain groups of people that are associated through where they come from maybe football teams and it's not like the mafia mafia's serious and organised crime they penetrated the judicial system the banks and you know that was serious and organised crime so import the words like Godfather Gagmaster all the rest it's to pad out a story for them makes it a bit more exciting your pals were Rob Krillers who was very well respected in Glasgow, Manchester a boy for his streets and then went down and ran Manchester how did that relationship you in well I know he's brother Jim for shorts prison and there was one occasion where Jim was going away to his villa in Spain and asked me for a good done and see Rob Rob was wanting to meet me and I was wanting to meet Rob and I did and I tended to get down for the weekend and normally I used to drink a cup of beers maybe a few lines of Charlie if you get too drunk and what I remember about Rob's was he had this bag of goldfish full and with rubber hoses coming at it like a bomb but I thought it was crack that the smoke turned out to be free based cocaine I tried it myself and I stayed there for fucking three months it's the longest longest time ever I soon found out Rob had the biggest and best gun collection I have a fucking scene I can talk about it now Rob God rest, I'm no longer here and I want to address some of the situation because when he died there was a lot of news favourite articles about good riddins to bad rubbish unnecessary, he's got family he's done his time, he's done what he's done but the funny story, Rob is nuts Rob is absolute crackers and one of the things was he always liked magnum ice creams he had a heroin habit cocaine habit never had a bot drugs he's always had them on a bottle but that combination in the guns there was one time where I was in his house and he got one delivered and he opened the box he said would you think that one fall and I've looked at nine millimetre silencer subsonic ammunition and his phone goes and he's got to go to the shops right so I'm sitting in the house going put the silencer on put the rounds in the clip got a phone directory, put it on the stairs and went that was a noise and I thought check the phone directory right through it so I put yellow pages in a couple of books I may be done about three or four shots before Rob's come in and anybody that's fired a gun in a house they know they can smell the cord right so Rob's going what have you done? that's about your fucking tool that Rob and I've showed him the phone directory yellow pages in the books and he went where the gym I went on the stairs the shop on his face I thought it's as though he pulled the gun out on him and I discovered that he was a lucky three quarter lens trench coat letter one for the gang days and postal they hid under the stairs and he took it, there's three shots he's going to have his finger and I've had that since 74 and fucking were you mad at it when you were shooting the gun? no that was just I should have been mad at it no that was the rule Rob we didn't take it too often until maybe Friday one o'clock how hard is it Paul to see pals who you loved and adored and respected to see them deteriorating through drugs in their later life well going back to the early prison sentences I don't know if I had been caught up in it James there's a good chance I would have been but I missed it off for the young offenders and when I came out some of my friends had been on heroin, the jellies alcohol they became untrustworthy but I never noticed that I still had the physically they changed, the weight loss and that voice that they've got sandpaper so it just became characterised and we did try to help a few but they didn't want to help myself they just go on to so much the help would have been there if it was needed and what we always found was that they were fucking money so we used to take them out and to return the tracksuits, trainers and then after a while they fucking sell them James to give back I can't take them off, just put them in the bag keep the receipt in case it's sad, it's sad but again it's their choice, it's their life How was it then coming out and totally trying to go straight do you still feel as if you've got a magnifying glass on you Paul? No, fun enough when you're in there's nothing changes on prison, prison conditions might change but environment different eras changed and I remember vividly the early 80s the music at that time was like Pink Floyd, Dire Straits and then it picked up after the sentence in 1990 nearly the bomb when his brother where his fucking music going boom boom what are the speakers motor off and I'm going what the fuck is that that's the new music and then you end up in a private party Blink was there and he was the first guy to give us an ecstasy and I thought cat drugs I said fuck I ain't taking drugs but it's a different kind of drug so I'm feeling the cursing and I see people enjoying that sound I think you still got that I said geese half out sounds like two half I'm taking my feet on it's always my fucking introduction and then all of a sudden it just took off it's mad to think and see you puffing our own green man if I was to smoke a joint with you I would be atrop balls I'm tripping my mind goes overdrive I used to experiment with LSD but only can find it I never took LSD again out but somebody had claimed that we took LSD in a nightclub fucking never happened in a nightclub no chance do you know what I would be up for it James but it's the same thing again James it needs to be in a controlled environment because I've been on the wild child with Aldis Huxley the doors of perception I replicated one of his experiments when I was in shorts and ended up with a big mural that I drew on the wall it looked alright until the next morning do you think you would do it then LSD there's something in LSD that expands the mind for the mind I would say that MDMA is well po and we speak quite frequently now over the last year or two and obviously I've got to get a bit of a better understanding about you we spoke about that at your last I think it'd be a fascinating thing I would be up for it purely as another experiment I took drugs experimentally and I self-medicated other people take their medication maybe too often or too much but it's fine on your level but not to be dependent but you always need that when you get to that edge and everybody knows when they're getting to that edge bang, where's the parachute because you can't go through a lifetime the things I've been through and realise that you know get fucking mental health issues everybody's getting mental health issues some have got them great and others some people know how to put the brakes on mentally some people don't substance if you're satisfied I like to call it it's a word I don't like having somebody that they want to call a smart kid or a cokehead it's derogatory words you're putting people back into a box so substance abuse it's all you do with different substances even prescription drugs somebody might have prescription a reduction to prescription drugs and alcohol it's a whole wide diversity what I've found out with the younger cruisers because they talk to me because they know I'm no involved in authority I used to be one of them and I discovered what a stunt is and I said to them can you explain that to me again we take mad dog 50-50 we have a couple of joints a couple of sleepers and a couple of offers and maybe about a Charlie and I went on and on and on what did you do that for some stunt so that's what a stunt they take it to the extremes and they say it's like a cat log that's a cocktail of madness I think that's the problem where the younger ones they don't realise what they're taking there's been a few deaths involved and I think they've taken a risk and they've been ignorant and I think maybe parents that don't know about substance abuse maybe want to learn I'm hoping to get involved in some of the course material I'm doing that again just as a pool on the basis that I want to be a Reg Macai type figure that was there for the lost causes but I don't stand for any bullshit James if they people want to help themselves then I'll help them until they don't want to help themselves and get them an incentive to go and do it if I can do it they can do it I'm the different thing everybody needs a hand but again you've got to want that hand you need to create the change well there's two key elements to it first and foremost is you need to find out that gives you that time you're no wasting your time you're not bringing academics or professionals in that you're no wasting their time another thing about it is to help them constructively explain it they might not be good at reading and writing the literacy and the numeracy might be affected as well as their communication skills so the second pillar that we're trying to do is to form a respect contract between them and whoever comes in notice where notice go off your head notice be violent towards them because these young guys and young women are volatile and you need a safe environment so if you're setting a standard for them do you want to help yourself we'll help you if we help you you need to respect us and the people that are coming in because not everybody's in my life professional councillors, academics other people want to help to change so there is an infrastructure there definitely, there's so much related to addiction Paul, whether it's trauma it's something, it's triggered something there's so much more to it than having an addiction if you look at the same elements we've all got DNA we've all got different things in France we've all got different voices so we've all got different problems one size didn't they fit but you can reasonably turn running and say well there's an issue here issue is self-control and self-belief a lot of people when they take whatever substance it is they lose themselves they forget who they are and in reality when it comes in and they try to stop worst thing probably people could do is go cold turkey and stop it that's not the right thing that's hardcore stuff, that's what you get in prison write on it a prison cell, bang door lock you damn well damage to them so there's a slow progression in which there's a need to ground them back to reality because there's an escape people don't like to see reality they like to get drunk they like to get stoned and that's not just in a Friday and Saturday that's before they want to open the door what do you think when you grew up as a boy in the streets to where the young boys are now do you think it's changed totally different and it's probably totally different again James with my dad was there and people say I had a young cruise just now when they let the cruise back in they said the exact same about us when we were younger when the older cruise were saying wasn't there like hours away back in the day so how far do you take it back you take it back on the basis even if you take it back 50 years look at the technology you've got right now doing this aren't you to what they had then the advancement of social skills in interacting with people conversation has gone there's a lost generation with computer games they're still mentally teenagers because they've no evolved their social skills because they're never at the fucking house they're vampires I used to say to some of them during the day just that on your shoulder smoke coming off you what do you mean you're a vampire when you see it now I'll fire up with this game it's now that somebody's switched it off so there is a gaming addiction there's a lot of people the parents don't know how to handle it I had a gaming addiction I used to play the kids games first to make sure they won they broke I went through I bring to the table life experiences and other people who try to weave into the programme have got academic experience they took the time and effort to go and get their accreditations of universities so hopefully there's a happy marriage for that one because I always get an example and ask somebody when would be the first time that they can recollect the country and what part they would remember for the country normally it's usually the smell right you try and read a smell you can read the words of it you can describe it but you need to smell it and it's the same thing about life you need to smell the reality before you can read them better so that's why I liked it doing the books and doing it when I did the interview with James it's hopefully educational for other people I'm not certain blown away in Trump but it's just one of these things where people are either going to like it or they don't like it but I wouldn't want to waste an opportunity that I think I've got I've got young kids and I hope that when they grow up they'll see me for what I'm on what I'm doing and it's because I wanted it I'm not trying to look good, I'm not trying to do nothing in fact I didn't like the passion when they did the same with your interview with James for anybody that's going through the struggle with a new poem maybe in the jail, just coming at struggling with addictions maybe look at the life I came and think I want to be a gangster what advice would you give for them well they're going to end up spending the best part of their lifetime in prison if they're lucky or they're going to end up dead or they're going to have seen their friends dead they're going to put their own family through the mill I've done it, I know exactly what it is it's good when you get the money James but again you're going back to when you're sitting in the prison at your table and your family walk away if you didn't make that much money you put in the table, you can't you buy that back actually so the longer you're away, your family deteriorate it's about like somebody having a job four weeks off, four weeks on the relationship it becomes not so much toxic it's just the feelings getting them and for them they want to start out on a life of crime it's a choice that they've got to make and I'm not saying they're wrong and then it and I'm not saying they're right and then it because I've been making through over their thought process but what they should think about is the enhanced thinking skills is your aims your goals and your objectives where you are right now and where you want to be in life and if people look beyond the hardships that is difficult people automatically need funds to get their food pay your utility bills fuel in the car everyone's got their responsibilities everybody's got that responsibility some got it greater than others but family members that I've said to me I'd rather just work for I'm happy the job I am then five days a week sometimes a day six days a week I couldn't live the life that you've lived and I'd say the exact same to them I couldn't do what you've been doing so it's a personal choice and hopefully when somebody says to you don't give me that fire you're going to burn your fingers or if you're turning around having a conversation to it you're going to burn your arse so that's what crimes are and people and if you want to keep standing there and burning your arse then there's something wrong with you if you want to keep going to prison which I've done revolving doors there must be something wrong you're either not very good at it which is a fact or you've just been unlucky my job has been a criminal that's what I was that's what I gave up and that's what I'm going straight now a lot of people say you're their uncle cousin if you ever had any trouble people phoned you and said I don't mind it James and I'll draw a line if somebody wants to use me to get out your situation or to prevent any violence I'm cool with it you've got the green light me wouldn't you agree with somebody to force something on somebody to become a bully on somebody then I would act on it but when I was growing up people used to talk about Thompson who was their great uncle and the daddy and I've ever had or the rest of the nonsense so if it gives somebody a bit of comfort it doesn't need any harm I've no problem with it how does it make you feel that so many people are so interested in your story in what a lesson that you've got to say how does that for the boy that you came to what you're doing now I don't really know the answer to that one James it feels strange it feels strange and I I get a bit humbled as well but there must be something there it's not a story it's about events that I've done in my life and how you've come through maybe people can relate to it I'm not looking for any empathy I'm not looking for any round-up laws it's what it is Paul listening for people watching there will be a part 3 the day we've just went on a different journey which I've thoroughly enjoyed another journey I'm taking his uncle Paul back for part 3 going forward for the future now Paul you've done all your books you've made your film what's the plans for you you're going to get another book another film part 2 I liked writing books it's very putic for you Reg called it the big fancy word cathartic for boys in the street it means you're doing alright for yourself you feel a bit better getting it done in pen and paper that's what I've done I was asked to go on a scheme that's getting piloted and some of the prisons they're doing poems and literature writing about things and I've asked to kind of comment on some of the writing skills that's good and I enjoyed doing that I did anyway but there is young boys and young girls in these sort of establishments that can read and write so the minute they're asked to write something they're into the revert into their self so there may be there's more room for giving them an opportunity either through art and recording I was interested in getting somebody to do their video diary for one of the programmes that I'm doing no the treatment programmes showing the event that if somebody is looking at the success rate don't believe us, don't look at the papers as a data stack go and look at the amount of people that's wanting to do the reining interviews about themselves on a daily basis and how they feel that they can do it so I'm currently working on visual projects I've been asked to get involved in a few of them but through a personal challenge just now with HMRC it's liable to come out in some stage or another so it makes well me mention it just now and it was nice getting the threat especially government agencies that could have went really wrong for me and whoever was wanting to come and chop the door so I'll leave out for another interview James and anything else that can help me on that basis we're looking at getting not so much a podcast on treatment James it's today we're having a website available for somebody who's got an issue and kind of guaranteeing them a response within three years there's a guy that I'm working with just now called Mark Dempster I hope he's brought a podcast good big guy very funny but when people hear he's been an ex addict he's now the cheat in the farm he's to get the finger on the false so this is another academic that hopefully we're building things that we're going along and again use guys day some better work yourself to bring alternative entertainment like this cos it is entertainment for two people it wasn't the entertainment you wouldn't get the viewers that you get and it was only to thank you for your time and your hospitality again and another new but the third one of you there's so much we can touch on the first one was more about your life can throw a lot of stuff but I think people know about that now touched on prisons today a few other wee topics but the part free I'd like today will touch on the future your plans to make change talking in prisons making documentaries just before we finish up last question Paul if the Paul at this day could speak to the Paul at 18 years old what would they tell him? quite a lot but he wouldn't listen that's fair enough quite a lot but he wouldn't listen hindsight's great James going back on it you could talk to yourself with hindsight but the reality is if I wasn't going to listen to my dad I certainly wasn't going to listen to me but there's elements where you can look back on it and say there's loads of things you could say to yourself back then would you listen as the problem because are they pointing me identifying the threshold for treatment programmes for people who want to help themselves first if they're no prepared to listen and I know back then I wasn't even fucking for listening and so to get an honest opinion probably say a lot but whether we get in one ear and out the other probably that's the thing about they don't listen the thing about it there is James it's a great analogy that you put up a better analogy is you've got to respect the source before you can accept the advice and if you get some day that you respect enough you'll listen to them it might not even be a family member it might be some day that the respects go to be gained first James and depending on who's saying it it might carry a bit more weight so the regression going back to your childhood and saying if only you've done this, if only you've done that it's good to remember yourself how far you've came forward you've got the same issues, you've grown up I've got the same issues you've grown up you're into your 50th your half percentage of your life's going I'm into my 75th percent and when people tend to look back and go there's one for you no for the younger ones because they can't look back 10 years look back 10 years they might only be 12 might only be 11 but for somebody who's to look back to when you're 21 where did that 10 years go to? it's fluent so you can look and you can guarantee we all do the respect that somebody's going to survive another 10 years and planning that forward leap is a bit more an incentive don't waste your time, don't rush your time things will happen if you're prepared to do it it's not going to happen that it tors your coin it won patience determination, rolling your sleeves up taking the good with the bad and hopefully working it out especially under these circumstances that I understand isolation, I understand the psychological issues it will cause I've been in isolation myself but in a different way altogether but this is totally different for a lot of different reasons and hopefully people can face up to the fact that everybody's getting mental health issues it's nothing to be ashamed of but a lot of people tend to hear that and they don't know who to talk to and don't know what to do this kind of brings it all internet's good for touch and base I've been on Twitter for quite a bit I've actually quite liked that you get a lot of direct messages asking and I did the exact same in touch and base so again it's to do with figures it's to do with the interest that people have got and if you can maintain some of these interests for the benefit again no blown your own trumpet or being the big guy I am just telling it as it is because there'll be somebody out there looking for that maybe I'll nug it to go that's what I forgot about me I'm going to try this if you don't try it you never know and I think everybody has got an opportunity to build their own self-esteem back up we've all had that with our ups and downs some people let it go too far and it's harder to get back up but everybody's got their own character and they'll do what they want to do but they need to be showing certain things for other people's life with the finger waving exercise and saying you should do that the minute you do that people won't do it so the determination for what you're doing you've got to entertaining people through your podcasts is brilliant and wish you well in the future I really appreciate that for giving me the time again to come down and tell your story you're doing me a turn as well but people coming on people listening it's just got to keep chipping away consistency is key there's nobody in the UK that's harder than me I put some of the graphs so shout out to Nick we're just working make consistency is key I don't want to keep stopping on my own I want to keep churning keep progressing because there's always somebody people start podcast and think it's easy it ain't easy and I'm glad they've started because then they'll know how hard that work but I believe I'm already the biggest in the UK thanks to guests like yourself and I'm only going to get bigger and better and stronger myself believe my confidence is second to none it's untouched you can't generate 20 million hats James 25 you've only done 51 then first year's an extra 5 and again Paul for coming on today brother telling your story I can't wait for part 3 we'll take it in a different journey but thank you brother check out more of my podcasts on the right and be sure to like share and comment your thoughts on this weeks podcast thank you