 Welcome! Nice to see you all and so many returning folks and new folks. I'm Mel Hauser. I use she, they pronouns. I'm the executive director here at All Brains Belong. Welcome to Brain Club. Let me share a screen. Get us oriented to our topic. So we are continuing our theme of the month, hearing from autistic voices about all kinds of things really. And today we'll be talking about what is often a really like a distressing and painful sort of experiences, which is interacting with the health care system. So Brain Club, of course, is our education program for the collective AVV community for purposes of providing education about neurodiversity to bring people together based on a shared vision of what's possible and to contribute to systems change. This is a space where people can collectively learn and unlearn together. And we're hoping that everyone feels safe and for many people maybe experiencing something different, quite different from the outside world. The idea being that by promoting new ways of thinking and being here at Brain Club, then you go out into your world and like slowly but surely we collectively change the world. Brain Club is for education purposes only. It is not for medical or mental health advice, though ABB does have programs that do those things. This one is not one of them. This is also not a support group or a place to solve individual specific problems. This is about collective learning. All forms of participation are okay and welcome here. You can have your video on or off and even if it's on, we do not expect anything of you. We certainly do not need you to sit still or look at the camera or any of those other neuro normative constructs. So please feel free to walk, move, visit, stim, eat, take breaks, whatever works for you. And all formats of communication are welcome here. You can unmute and use mouth words. You can type in the chat. We also have direct or private messaging set up so you can send, you can ask questions or make comments that way. We affirm all aspects of identity. And in order to make this a safe and comfortable experience for all participants, we prioritize the group's needs over that of the individual. And so it's never perfect but some of the ways that we do this are avoiding or taking caution around sensitive topics and making sure that we create enough space for everyone to be able to participate. Closed captioning is enabled. You just have to toggle it on if you'd like to use it. So depending on your version of Zoom, you can maybe see the live transcript closed captioning icon. But if not, look for the more dot, dot, dot and choose show subtitles. You can do the same and choose hide subtitles if you want to turn them off. And that's my visual support to actually open the chat box. Awesome. Speaking of the chat box, this is a great example of conflicting access needs at times. So for many community members, the chat box is a way of being able to access program. It's a way of communicating without mouth words. As soon as a thought comes up, not having to keep it in working memory long enough to insert yourself into the conversation. It also allows for folks to think about stuff and, you know, 10 minutes later have a thought about it and continue to share in the chat. There's also the opportunity to have direct, you know, engagement with one another. There are also community members for whom the chat is really distracting and overwhelming with lots of visual clutter. Many people often, you know, have a startle response when it pops up and it bounces around and moves kind of quickly sometimes. So while the main event, the main action is going to be on the screen, we know sometimes it is hard to ignore the chat sometimes. So some ideas of how, if you are distressed by the chat, these are some ideas to try out. After the first pop up, try not closing the window. This way, when new chat messages come like the text will update, but it won't keep popping. You can also try disabling chat preview, where if you click on the little up arrow next to the chat box, it will display the words show chat previews. If you tap or click on that option, it will make the check box go away and that will disable chat preview. Those are just some ideas if the chat is distressing. The other thing that we ask for those who are using the chat, we ask that you put your comments like in the main chat window. I lost my visual support about that, but instead of using the threads collapsed, instead of having collapsed things, this way, if everyone types into the main chat box, the chat will bounce up and down. It will just go sequentially. Thanks. Okay. So April. For many autistic people, not all, but many autistic people, April being autism awareness or autism acceptance month, sometimes can feel really distressing. It can feel like there's a lot of like performative stuff that goes on out there. It also can be really hard to be bombarded with messages or images that are like seeped in the deficit based paradigm of autism. It can just be really hard to be immersed in that. So I'm glad you're here. If you're having a hard time in April, I am too. And I'm glad you're here and I'm glad we're all here together. Yeah. So that's why are we so you put we posted last week's oh, that's funny. Okay, so Sarah has posted the same the same thing we posted last week that was our Instagram post from from last week that we posted last year to about April. Anyway, that's why our April theme here at Brain Club is autistic culture hearing from autistic voices about a wide variety of topics. And so tonight, autistic health care experiences, we're going to be revisiting a community panel from a year ago. And I see that many of our panelists are here with us tonight, which is really cool. I will also let give you a heads up about next week. So two or three times a year, ABB offers a webinar that during the same time slot as brain club with the the opportunity to be inviting people to learn who like aren't part of the ABB community who are coming in to learn about specific topics. And so next Tuesday is our third annual presentation of shifting the autism narrative, the impact of stigma on health, I do update it every year. So it's a little bit different if you've been to this before. And so it's going to be next Tuesday at six. And so just to just to repair ourselves that likely the crowd will be larger than then brain club usually is, and it'll be more of like, like a one way kind of like webinar style, as opposed to like the discussion based format of brain club. Okay, so autistic people often have terrible experiences with the health care system. And we're going to get get into more of that next week's webinar. But the long and short of it is that the health care system does a terrible job at meeting the needs of autistic people in many, or most instances, many autistic people. And we know that, you know, the literature shows us that 70% of autistic people, autistic adults have untreated health problems. And 80% struggle to access like basic primary care. What we know is that there are like some really clear barriers to health care access. And we're going to talk about that next week. But tonight, we're just we're going to hear from some of our community members about what their experiences interacting with the health care system have been like. This video will run about 25 ish minutes. And we'll have the chat running to as as we go, welcome, welcome to use the chat while we're watching the video. And then we'll have plenty of time for discussion. And with with with the idea of inviting, I think with all of these, all of these topics that come up, it's it's inviting the consideration of the double empathy problem. I think that, you know, clinicians and patients often do not see the world in a similar way. Often do not speak each other's language. The double empathy problem is a term coined by Dr. Damien Milton, who's an autistic social scientist in the UK, who has shown in research that miscommunication happens when there's a mismatch of neuro type, a mismatch of worldview and communication style and health care is like. But one example of the how the double empathy problem impacts everything. Before we before we get going, I just a thank you to our panelists, Sarah, Matthew, Amy, Linda and Zeph. Okay. This is like a this is like a part two of last week's panel, actually, which is kind of interesting, because in real life, those panels took place months apart. But now they're revisiting them just a week apart. Alright, here we go. David, take it away. When you think about your experiences trying to access health care, what comes to mind? It's very hard to access health health care. I think it's hard. In general, I think our system is broken. For pretty much everyone. But the amount of additional layers that come when you have, you know, in a way, any type of disability, just it makes it truly a monumental problem. When you think about your experience trying to access health care, what comes to mind? Um, this is going to be kind of a bummer of a conversation. So here's a content warning, because I don't have a whole lot of really great health care experiences. I have medical PTSD. So when I think of the health care experiences that I've had, a lot of them have been very challenging, particularly from communications perspectives, trying to make myself understood to the doctor and being understood. What comes to mind is, is a doctor or physician or a nurse, you know, willing to understand that this individual is different than all the others. And how can he or she adapt to that individual needs? But with me, it's more about, you know, will this doctor, nurse position accept me for who I am, not what I am. Obviously been autistic my whole life, but I didn't know I was autistic. So I didn't ever knew what the challenge was. And I think about myself even as like a little child and someone had to put attention on me or had to touch me in any way. I think I had a real fear response that I'm just starting to really start recognizing. And I didn't always felt like I was asked permission. And that I realized in retrospect is huge. So I kind of didn't access health care or access that very, very minimally, even in emergency rooms, like not being able to tolerate the environment, and being, you know, potentially written down as an uncooperative patient, because I had to leave before they were done with their stuff, because I just couldn't tolerate it. What are some challenges that you've faced in accessing health care? The challenges that are faced accessing health care is accessibility formats, documentations, that they give you new patients or existing patients, you know, forms that you have to fill out per meeting, or preform meetings, when you get there for your doctor appointment that day, which, as you know, is not accessible. It was very anxiety producing for me. The thing I think is like, what I've recognized, even in like a basic wellness exam, there wasn't a connection, I didn't have a connection to my body, and I didn't have a connection to understanding why the question was being asked. So if I went to a wellness exam, and they're like, tell me about your teeth. And I would just be like, I don't know, I don't know how, and I, because I'd be so anxious, I don't think I had access, like to my fully functioning, like speaking. I just wouldn't know what to say. Nobody believes you. And then there are different levels of that in, you know, well, you look at it wrong, or you couldn't possibly know yourself because you're this subgroup or that subgroup. And then there are the ones where, well, they, everybody looks fine. So it has to be fine. And I found that a lot as a parent that I would know something was wrong. But my kids didn't look disabled. Oh, they looked cute and perfect and just the right amount of chubby. But no, no, I'm just one of those moms. Yes, the difficulty healthcare system for me was the physicians of trying to understand my complexity of my learning knowledge and how I learn. And how can they adapt to my learning? For me, it's more about, you know, not only speaking to them on that same level, which is very, very tricky, but also complexity of the healthcare system in itself because they're running on the medical terminology of the healthcare college insight. And when they use those, or explain those two patients, sometimes patients like myself with disabilities, cannot get it because it's, you know, it's like you're teaching a seminar at a university, but you're doing it with a patient. Well, she has staring spells. Well, she can walk a straight line and touch her nose. So there couldn't possibly be any neurological difficulties. And now it's, it's coming from otherwise knowledgeable people. You start to wonder, where is the problem? I have spent a lot of time not getting a lot of things. And part of it was, well, maybe this is just something I'm not, maybe I am wrong. You know, maybe there's this big cosmic thing that 95% of the populace gets and I don't get because I'm me and I don't get it. And I didn't know why I didn't get it then, but I just knew I didn't get it. But no, it wasn't me this time. A lot of different symptoms show up in the different symptoms of the body that were fundamentally neurologically related. On COVID, you know, and other, you know, medical issues like asthma. It's, you know, it's very common, but it's also things that shouldn't ever be ignored in a medical profession field, because those could complicate, you know, the lifespan of an autistic adult or a child. Even though I talked with them about the other symptoms of the autism, my symptoms were brushed off as PTSD. And I can just feel when I walk in, I don't know if it's a safe space for me. And I know, I don't know that it's like a safe space for me, like being neurodivergent, but I also don't know if it's a safe space because of the way that I'm going to be treated and, and disregarded in terms of like, just go lose weight. I'm terrified to go. I think there's a lot of assumptions being a fat person. And so like if I go get my blood pressure checked or something like that, there's this like quality of, oh, I can't believe that you have normal blood pressure. Like just like the things that people are saying to me, you know, I just recently had a routine mammogram and like what was said to me during that appointment was incredibly inappropriate. When I came to Vermont and, you know, I moved here, so you had to get a new medical home, this old country doctor. Iceman, otherwise, took a look at me, weighed me and signed me up for like the entire list of every health test you could possibly have. And I'm like, I don't really want to pay for all these, but okay. And then I was like, no, we don't need to do the cholesterol. At least I know that one is fine, because I'd had it done recently and I inherited low cholesterol from my dad. And he wouldn't believe me. So we ran the test. And my cholesterol actually had gone up. And I said, well, should we worry because it's gone up six points in a year. That's the most it's ever gone up. And he told me to be quiet. And I was like, oh, okay. And I couldn't really voice anything back for me, because we're trained not to do that. So how was your menstrual cycle? And I was like, fine, great. Well, when was your last cycle or whatever? And it was like, I have no idea. And I immediately like was yelled at. And what they said to me was, it's my, I think of, and I started crying. And they said to me that it's my job. Like I always think it's a good sign when people are crying because it's my job to make sure. And if I have to yell at people to make sure that they're taking care of their health. Going through that time period was super frustrating. Trying to like get attention and go into like all these different specialists and not getting a whole lot of answers. So many of these experiences are me advocating for what I need. It took me five years to get a diagnosis for my autism. My healthcare provider said, well, we can't say you're autistic or like, you know, like my chiropractic care was like, no, there's just no way. Like just like not asking me, not, not curious at all. Like not saying why, what makes you think that you're autistic or how could we find you an autistic specialist to figure out or give you some idea how powerful it was. Number one, learning that I was learning that I was autistic was like a kaleidoscope coming into focus for my entire life that made everything make sense. And I was also diabetic at the time. My blood sugars literally dropped 20 points overnight and stayed down with a self diagnosis of autism. I find that hypocrisy bothers me a great deal in general. And, you know, we're supposedly, you know, a society where we're supposed to take care of ourselves and be informed and make decisions and be self actualized and everything. And even if you're all those things and in many ways, if you are those things, healthcare isn't designed to work for you. Now, it's sort of designed for you show up and they send you places and put you in little cubbies and folders. And if you actually are like, no, this that that doesn't actually affect me. This over here affects me. Nobody quite knows what to do with you. Doctors, I don't think are really taught how to work with patients who don't fit the expectations of, you know, what the profile is. They're trained to make decisions in a very specific way. They need to in order to be really good with their time because nobody else lives in your body but you, right? Right. So you think after a certain amount of time, you would become an expert in it. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of how I look at mine. Yeah. Thanks. Knowing that just because somebody shows up in front of you and may appear normalish enough, but there needs to be given some amount of space or grace to allow for the fact that maybe this person has other things going on that you don't know about. I try very hard to communicate, but then when I get frustrated, I become very blunt. And the new doctor I have at least can deal with that. But a lot of people in health care are still sort of trained in that, you know, I am in charge and you are here at my whim sort of thing. And, you know, we must be respectful. There's so many different layers of those nuances that I'm like, no, I had to wait 45 minutes for you. I could never go back. So in that one moment and I like I went to therapy and like we had we're starting to get all these strategies of how do I go back? And that's when I found ABB. I would really basically I was going through another round of low mood and fatigue and sort of growing hopelessness about the possibility of having a future. And I had exhaust pretty much exhausted mainstream health care options or at least the mainstream health care options I was willing to try. And I heard this. I was sitting with this friend with over coffee who was the director of the Vermont Disability Council and she was raving about this new doctor in Montpelier who was out as autistic and starting a medical practice. So what do you wish health care providers knew about neurodiversity and neurodivergence? It's really like I want them to know about ABB. I want them to know what Mel has figured out. I want them to know this connection between all of the things that I wasn't waking up in the middle of the night with panic attacks. I was waking up because I wasn't breathing because I needed a sleep study. I was waking up because I've dysautonomia because my autonomic nervous system doesn't work correctly. Everyone was putting this on me that like my thoughts were causing these panic attacks like I don't know who has panic attack. I wasn't having a thought in the middle of the night. And the way in which Mel has reframed that it's my fault that I'm not doing something correctly that I'm broken, which is I feel like what the healthcare would say like you're not doing enough. And what I hear Mel saying is no, the medical system isn't doing enough for you. And so that's what I would love to say is that if the medical care system didn't blame people who have difference that instead was curious about that. And we have made some not enough, but some progress over the last 40 years and learning to accept people a little bit, to give people a little bit more grace, a little bit more space to be themselves when we can tell they need it. But if you look like you should fit and then you don't, people get cranky. And if the cranky people are the people that we're relying on to give us the referral, to actually listen, to think about what we're saying and try and put the pieces together in the areas that we aren't knowledge about because nobody can know all of this stuff. And if they're just grumpy because we don't fit what they think, no. For me, I see that process of the healthcare industry is starting to come around and understand neurodivergent, neurodivergent individuals and neurodiversity. Having curiosity around my experience, like asking me, do I understand where the question is coming from, providing a space that I can feel comfortable in and safe in helping me make connections back to myself, not making presumptions about my body, but asking me if that makes sense. Finding ABB is just like, I've said this to Mal, I've said this to a lot of other people, but it's like, I just know I'm gonna live longer. I can't imagine being yelled at. I can't imagine not being cared for. I think the whole first wellness visit that I had with Sierra, I think I bawled the entire, like I just remember my shirt being all wet because I just couldn't believe the care that I was getting and I couldn't believe the access and I didn't even know what I needed. I had zero idea and that there was all these different options and so it's just so radically different for me. The idea that we can just say this is my access need. And if we can take that step to say, okay, we're gonna actually look at this problem. What is the actual problem with access? What is the actual problem with communication? What is the actual problem with coverage? Oh, then maybe we can fix some of this shit. I think that's what we need. What I want providers to do across Vermont State life is to understand the individual needs. If we can understand your needs, we need to be respected in the same way. And for me, it's more about having that work individual participant relationship. Basically, you want the doctor to get to know you better vice versa, the patient should get to know the doctor better. What helps move things along quicker and make the process more easy for both parties? The doctor, the nurse and the physician at large. Plus the individual patient would get, would feel at ease of coming back to those services. So I did the intake, which invited me, and then that invited me to share, like among other things, what I care about, and also offered to have a provider spend time discussing things I cared about, which really impressed me. And among other things, like the possibility of sort of like, how do you structure an appointment in a way that it's comfortable to you when you feel comfortable? And I thought, and things I had never thought about is even possibilities of sitting in a doctor's chair with a comfortable blanket or pillows or something like that. So that was like, oh, I could, and so that it was just nice that people thought about things like that. And then I was sitting, when I was sitting in the waiting room for my first appointment, there was this a really short book written for kids. And it basically told my life story of losing it. I mean, I remember reading it, waiting for my first appointment. So sort of losing it and having these public meltdowns that I was so ashamed of and it explained those things in terms of the flight, the fight flight response, which I was totally on board with already. So, and then there was also something on the wall in the office about polyvagal theory, which I was also totally on board with already and thought that I was impressed that ABB knew about and was thinking about. So at that point I thought, wow, it looks like these people speak my language. And what I want to see for it is, you know, that sense of belonging within the healthcare field industry, but also understand everybody's access needs is different. We're all different, we're not the same. And for me, it's more about trying to connect. I had that universal connection between each industry or each systems and try to make it a collaborative system where it's cost effective and more efficient because everybody wins that way if it's more collective than having these barriers or what you call silos that are preventing us from providing those services in the first place. And then a sincere attempt, a really sincere attempt, the most sincerest attempt I've ever seen in a medical practice to meet people where they are at, to serve everybody well and to leave nobody behind. It's an incredible effort to make groups and meetings and medical care accessible and interpersonally, practically, financially. And I love that the practice is really developed in consultation with patients and we're in these advisory groups and invited to join them and that what happens in the practice after that is how the practice develops is informed and driven by what we say in those meetings and basically informed and driven by patient needs. I just didn't know that I would make it. And so when I say, like, I know I'll live a longer life, it's not only do I live a longer life because I have the healthcare, but now I have community and making friends. I feel understood. I feel like all of the things that seemed so isolated in the issues with my health are now understood with very simple medications. It's like, it's just changed my relationship to being able to get up in the morning, like limited my limbic response so that I actually can be here right now speaking to you. All of these things that ABB are providing for me. And then it's like the other patients are just, I learned so much. This is just like so amazing to me. There are these amazing group medical visits where Mel and Sierra offer this cutting edge information. But they also allow lots of time for questions and in-depth discussion around the areas that concern us. And beyond that, and there's more because there's also an opportunity to meet others in the community who are going through the same or similar things, which then gives us the opportunity to learn from each other's experiences and to really value and feel valued by each other and feel a lot less alone and a lot more hopeful. We're frozen, anybody else frozen? Yeah, it's frozen. Yes. All right, hold on. David's working on it. Sorry, the video actually ended there. I don't know why. Oh my goodness, hold on a second. Let me get the rest of the video, that's weird. Like all of our brain club interviews, the end is always the best part. Always make them that way. So I don't remember what is the end, but we're gonna find it. All right, so hang on one second, just queuing it up. I think David, I think I'm just gonna play it because I don't know exactly where it will pick up. So hold on. It was literally like 10 more seconds. So hold on, watch this 30 second clip from the beginning of this last Sarah quote. So allow lots of time for questions and in-depth discussion around the areas that concern us. And beyond that, and there's more because there's also an opportunity to meet others in the community who are going through the same or similar things, which then gives us the opportunity to learn from each other's experiences and to really value and feel valued by each other and feel a lot less alone and a lot more hopeful. Thank you for your patience. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Laura, for agreeing, right? So like I think I shared this last week too, like I have the kind of brain that like holds onto these phrases and like blaze them over and over. So that one where Sarah describes community connection as leading to the transformational experience of feeling a lot less alone and a lot more hopeful, like that's healthcare. Thank you so much to Sarah and Matthew and Amy and Linda and Zeph for sharing your experiences. I think one of the things that we talk a lot about here at All Brains Belong is about also like shifting the role of the healthcare professional, right? So this idea that there's like the doctor expert who, you know, tells you, you know, like that has always struck me as like an unhelpful power dynamic. And I guess as a PDA or that power dynamic has always felt unsafe to me and like not comfortable. And I think that when we can acknowledge that patients are the experts in their own lives, everything is possible that comes from that place. And so like, you know, with the, a lot of people are like, well, you know, I wanna, oh, Sarah got kicked off. There's Sarah, I need this and I can't get a provider who understands me. Like, so it's really about, I think, putting the power back in the hands of the people. And I think what we really tried to do with the Everything's Connected to Everything resource is we try to do just that, to be empowering people, to learn about their health and some access some tools and strategies that they can access on their own and to be able to bridge the double empathy problem yet again where there are also tools on this project. Thanks, Lizzie for linking it in the chat. There's also tools where, you know, for example, there's a very simple letter written to primary care clinicians introducing the idea of this project and the constellation of intertwined medical problems that autistic and ADHD people commonly experience. It's written in a language that primary care clinicians are used to receiving information in. So like a tool that a patient can use, so they don't have to, you know, a lot of people in the chat were talking about like, yeah, I gotta like mask and show up just so like, what would it look like to try to let this letter take that burden on for you so that you don't have to? I think it's all about like just systems. I think Sarah Wilkins, you said this in the chat about like systems, systems thwart people, systems thwart everyone, systems thwart, that's what they do. And so the healthcare system is so broken and it's beyond any of us. You know, that's why we say here that we're doing parallel play with the healthcare system because it's really about trying to do something different, trying to do something that doesn't actually require dramatic like repair of such a broken system. It's just starting over. I'd love to take any comments or questions or reflections on what you've, what's coming up for you. Hi everyone, let's see. Well, I'm in Canada, I'm Canadian. I see my health systems a little different. I think I'm a little bit more fortunate when it comes to healthcare, although that being said, I still experienced significant stigma. And the point was made a few times about how I've been autistic my whole life, but it's just a recent revelation. And so I have this like backlog of medical, well, general life, little traumas and big traumas about how I've interacted with people and how people have interacted with me and it's kind of built up. And last summer, so eight months ago, my doctor, my specialist retired and she had been my doctor for 27 years. It was hard when she left. And the whole medical team essentially has aged out. So I've got a whole new medical team. And the good thing about that is now that I don't have to fight so hard for people to see me differently because my old doctor, when I said, I think I'm autistic, I'm really ringing all the, I'm checking all the boxes and it's really quite apparent to me that I'm autistic. And she is just like really resistant to that because she had known me for decades, right? And she saw me differently than I actually am. So I went and saw my new doctor a week ago, last Tuesday. And it took me many made appointments and then canceled appointments because I was so nervous about seeing her and I was so nervous about unmasking and saying, I think I'm autistic. And so I finally went and it was a really good visit. It was very affirming. She heard me, she didn't go very deeply into it. And thankfully my doctor, I get to see her for 40 minutes so I don't feel rushed. And anyways, the next day, Wednesday. I was thinking of, I was out for a walk and I was like, you know what? That doctor's appointment didn't take everything out of me. What an amazing experience. Before my appointment, I also sent her that letter, Mel. I sent her the letter. So thank you for that resource. That was really helpful. And so when I was leaving, she said, we will talk again more about autism and your reality. We're gonna talk more about that. But today I could see that you were already really emotional. So let's just take this slow. I mean, this is the beginning of a new doctor-patient relationship and let's just unfurl, right? So I wanted to share that. It was an affirming experience. Wow, thank you for sharing that. I love stories like that. I think it's really about having that be the expectation where it like shifting norms so that like demanding and expecting to feel safe, to feel believed, that becomes the norm. Chris, I can't hear you. I see your mouth moving and I don't see a mute, but no sound. Okay, well, Chris is working on sound, although I think maybe, pop it off, it's gonna pop back in. I'm gonna read Paul's comment from the chat. I've not faced the same level of frustrations as the panelists, but my main frustration is not being able to address my list of issues despite sharing my list upfront. I realized doctors have time limits, but I have some issues that took several visits before being addressed or other issues that haven't been addressed yet. Yeah, yeah, it can be really, really hard. And I think you're not alone. And Bruno's telling you that, right? So, right, and it's, I think bridging the double empathy problem, what can that look like? So there's a finite capacity, finite time, but empowering you to set priorities of, we have certain amount of time together today, what is your priority for today? And what would it look like to provide multiple different ways of communicating, sending information ahead of time to be reviewed during an appointment, making sure people can communicate in the format that works best for them. Oh, welcome back, Chris. Hey. Yay, okay, go for it. I didn't leave, but you can hear me now, right? Yeah. Okay, so I was definitely crying earlier hearing everyone's stories. Maybe I'll cry sharing some of my own, but I definitely have like a felt a revelation, I don't know, definitely got into this through Mel's work talking about all the things because I related to it so strongly. And we talk, I think a lot in terms of like the cycle, well, the relationship between the brain and the body, right? But I think there's this other outside factor of trauma, basically that has been mentioned earlier, that are just, I feel like it's pretty inseparable from our experiences for a lot of us with the healthcare system and with our, with the effects of whatever health issues or neurodivergence, like we're dealing with, I feel like just experiencing some of the health issues I have in itself is traumatic, right? And so I like, I'm currently only able to access healthcare in Mexico where I live, which gives me, it means I pay a little bit more because it's all out of pocket, but I get to shop around a lot. And so I've finally been able to kind of find my people and that's been really, really helpful and people are, I don't know, you can take a while, but you can generally find someone that's more understanding than another if you have that ability to change and shop around, I guess. And, but yeah, when I'm unable to pay for all the things that I should be attending because there's so many things and you can't get everything done in one visit by any means, I kind of have to just prioritize like, therapist visits, psychology visits and psychiatry and get my meds and that's it, you know? So I really do feel like it's, because the issues are cyclical and interrelated and trauma is a part of it, like you really do have to tackle all three, you know, whatever neurological differences we have, all the effects of the health issues on our body and the trauma that it's caused, like we have to reverse that cycle and that's so hard without support, that's so hard without community. And so like, you know, that's what got me tearing up is hearing all the folks sharing about how they've found that community here. And that is just, it's really special. It's rare, but I think it is a growing movement and that for me is the most positive thing to hold on to. Chris, what you just shared, like it is so deeply moving to me and I really appreciate you. And I think people coming together in community, learning about their brains, learning about their bodies, learning about their needs, I think that to me connects to what I said earlier around putting the power back in the hands of the people. So with that, I think that's a pretty good note to wrap up on. Thank you so much again, all of you for being here. Thank you again to our panelists and look forward to seeing you next Tuesday for the third annual Shifting the Autism Narrative webinar.