 This week's episode is sponsored by the AP Foundation. The Andrew Pritchard Foundation is a registered charity that works with ex-offenders and knows at risk of offending. Their mission is to be a force for positive change and turn young people's lives around through education and training. Which leads to sustained employment. For more information, please go to their website at www.apfoundation.org.uk Or you can give them a follow on social media. You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be. And don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications bell so you are notified for when my next podcast goes live. And boom we're on, and today's guest we've got John Toomey, Johnny Boy, how are you? Right, thanks very much. Ah good to see you. Good to see you. Man who's been involved in Underworld as well, some big sentences, 21 years for the Heathrow Heist which was nearly two million quid. But a mad court case with that, I believe there was no jury, there was, I think some of the, it changed three different juries and then it eventually ended up with no jury, is that correct? That's correct, yeah. But a mad story, you've been in and out of prison your whole life as well, robberies and stuff. But first and foremost it's good to have you on. Thanks very much, it's good to be on. Yeah, and shout out to Andrew Pritchard as well for making this happen, great guy doing great things, man who's had his own pasts and troubles but flying now. He's fantastic and I've got whatever Andrew wants for me to do for the AP Foundation, I'll do, you know, I'll go anywhere to keep people out of these places where I've been for this life. Before we get into everything, I'd like to go back to the start of my guess. Gabbard, understanding about you, John, where did you grow up and how it all began? Well, I was born in Cork in Ireland. I lived there until I was four, just under five, and my mum died. So I had a father who was an alcoholic but he didn't even know it. And we had a family of nine, there were nine of us, you know. And my oldest sister was with my mum when she died, affected her greatly, she was only 12, 13. So she took on our mum, I know she was being my mum, but they disappeared to England within a couple of years. And when I was about seven, I can't remember anything when my mum was alive. I remember being, I was told it was very happy, there was a happy time. All of us would just go to church and all that. It was a completely different upbringing. Like Cork City, we were just a family, like, you know. We had no money, but we were all happy by everybody. So we were all my older siblings. So I came over to England and at the time it was one of that. No blacks, no Irish, no dogs. So I remember distinctly going around Pennington and look that you used to see the signs up on the windowsill, on the window panes. So we didn't, we couldn't even knock on there before we saw that sign. So we'd eventually get a room for me, my younger brother and my younger sister who was three years older than me and my dad. It would be one room in a house and we'd only probably stayed over two weeks, three weeks. Dad might have paid a rent or whatever. And so we were moving. I was always moving around here, there and everywhere. And what led then to all my sort of life afterwards was I think I was about nine or ten. My father met something like herself. She was mentally wrong. She'd been in mental institutions, but we didn't know any of that to start with. And she lived in a basement in the house in Pennington. So my dad just thought that'd be handy. We'd have to get to the place. It was actually just a basement with every single window smashed to bits of smithereens. No electrics, no food, no anything. Just a two of them in the pub every night. Me and my brother were living on a camp bed in the kitchen on concrete. So it was just one of those things. But we just thought that was normal. And we were happy because we were in a thing for a while. Then all of a sudden all the tramps had to come in off the street, let themselves in because they didn't know that if it was a bomb site. Because we were playing in places like this during the day, the bomb sites, you know. But we'd come back in the night and go to sleep. Anyway, I was there for a couple of years and I'm mad at it and it happened where she attacked my brother in the middle of the night. We were shooting with that hammer. I was about 11 and I think 10, 11. I've attacked her. I didn't know, just to see her shadow. There'd been people in the house earlier that night. We were screaming our aides out, please get out. They were as good as gold. They were just drinkers having wine, I was having a drink. That was it. So I ended up doing quite badly with a flat iron. I didn't want it used to heat on the fire. And she was hospitalized and so was my brother. And them sort of things. So that sort of changed my whole outlook. We left the basement that night, thank God. And went to live with the sister a couple of miles away. We walked there in the blood that night. We were quite happy, very happy then, you know, because my sister was cooking this dinner and we were getting things and we were going out playing football and all that stuff, sports. About a year and a year later maybe or something like that. I can't remember the exact times, you know. My father came up and got us back. He said that the windows all finished. It's all different, it's that and the other. But it sort of wasn't like, you know, we did. So we had to go back because he sort of demanded off. He wasn't vicious or violent, but he demanded off my sister. We went back. So we went back and then I started, really because there was no food down the place or anything, started out shoplifting. Shoplifting, hoisting, like, you know, going into bakers and things like that. Knicking gear that they wouldn't miss. A lot of stale cakes, broken biscuits, all them sort of things. They'd be in my brother's stock, eat out on them. There was always milk or water there, but there was no food. And then graduated, that graduated to other things when I'm seeing how easy it was, you know, and about sort of 13, I think, 13. I got put into an abusive, I got nicked for nicking the bike. I couldn't even ride the bike. And that was my first nicking. And I ended up getting into a place called Stanford House. And it was basically a nonce establishment. There was an expo box. There was definitely one. And the one I was in charge of it would be me. Hodgson and Hodgkinson, the two of them. I was there for a while. I saw some horrible things happen in there. They left me alone because by now, I've now got, if you like, violent, and I'm knocking about with the older boys who they were a bit afraid of. The nonces wouldn't go near them, like, you know. Yeah, then I escaped from there. So I escaped with me and another fella just jumped on the box at a punchy one and got him on the floor and ran out the door and stayed in the middle of the shepherd's bush. And I had a sister who lived around the corner. She didn't know it. The same sister who'd come over on a boat with me. She's now older. And so she got me out of her. So now I think I'm the craze in everyone else. I think I'm Britain's most wanted or even my most wanted. So I just went on my toes. I stayed around sort of padded and just went at it. Did you realize, because obviously coming, losing your mum, dad alcoholic, being attacked in the basement and the fucking secure units for the sex cases, did your life just start spiraling on there? Because everything just seems trauma, trauma, trauma. It just went mental. I just literally didn't care what went on. When I went into the place, into the place, I wasn't worried about it because my home life was worse. I had a bed there and I had some food and I had all that kind of stuff. I wasn't frightened of it. And I wasn't frightened of by now because when you're actually trodden down into the ground, you don't really fear anything. There's not much more you can do to her. That's the way I don't remember thinking like that, but that's how I must have thought. Who by the what was it, John? It was really bad. What this in the place, it was horrible. They were like, there was a kid hung himself while I was in there. They were being abused. I remember going into the, you go in the showers and the fellow standing with a big cane and they used to make you straight strip you. Everyone would do that because they'd all be around you like to do it. And the ones they target out, they'd sort of be flicking about that. It was all the bad things that happened to kids who couldn't defend themselves like, you know? And I don't know how they got away with it. So long like, you know? When I actually, we got him on the floor. We were escaped. We put a few kicks in there. If I had been a bit old and a bit found, just kicked him from one side of the fucking road to the other like, you know? What did you do after that? I just, they caught me. No, I gave myself up. A probation fellow came down to the house where I was staying. It was a friend of mine's house. And his mum knew what I was going through at home. So she said, you're living here now. Because just don't have anyone come to you. You stay under the bed. And anyone that used to come, she used to go, what are you come looking here for? She's a doubly woman like, why don't you come in and me and the sons have remained pals ever since. You know, like, since that day to this, we still like care about each other like, you know? Yeah. And so she, she, she doesn't, I came in when I went out, just because I was out at it then, you know? And she used to say, don't you do nothing to get yourself back? No, no, no, I won't be called something out now. That's it. So she's got me, a probation has come around apparently. And she said he's really genuine. A Scottish fellow called McGregor. I forget his first name, Mr. McGregor has to call him. But he also had gone into my home life about me knowing it and gone down and had a look at the place. And he just, he just said, look, he went to the court himself. He said, if he comes here, John, they won't take him away to any establishment. He said, I'll get him a probation hospital. He said, because he's done a lot of serious things now. He said, and he can come and I'll get him to a probation hospital somewhere. And then he can work and he can do this, which he did. He took me to a place in Bristol, which helped out, but I just sort of, I was in it then, you know, I was, um, got started getting more serious, you know, been sort of breaking into shops and factories and we were getting a few couldn't van loads and jumping up and thing. Um, then we went away. We used to work the seasons, me and the brothers that I was telling and some other people, Dan and Cornwall and Luke, you know, and Devon and all that. And we all go around and we just went on absolute spree. We've probably everywhere down there, like, and we rented a couple of places, houses, and we filled them with everything, electrical gear, jewelry, everything and everything, but they captured us to place. They found the place. And while we were up in London selling some of it, and when we've come back, they brought us here, they captured us. So I got, um, went to a bottom of the sizes down there. I was 18 then. Um, I got Ball Steel, nine months to three years. And my pal, who was moved from that place to my pal, he was older, he was 21, 22. So they give him, uh, four. And I've been, um, and we were down an exit. And that was it. I met a few people in, uh, Ball Steel who are in Maine. I still remain friends with some today, some of the ones who are alive. What was Ball Steel like, John? I mean, I loved it. It was just, it was like, um, I wouldn't say loved it. That'd be a bit stupid. Like, you know, but I'm, because of the past, nothing frightened me. And it was, it was, I'm right into sports. And at the time I was doing a little bit of boxing. So I was boxing for the Ball Steel football. We were playing football Saturday and Sunday, and we were getting rewards. Like, you know, if you win the league, or you win the cup, we'll take you down to Norfolk and put you on a, on a, on a whole holiday. Like, you know, so we will win them all. Like we'll be like professionals. You know, you think that we're training sort of five hours a day, every day, like, you know, and we're going down doing it. So Ball Steel for me was sort of all right. And I met some good people in there and people who were active. Is that the first thing you feel was if you had a family? Yeah. Is that why you loved that? Yeah, no, I had a great family. Structure? Yeah, that's what it was, it was structure. That was Ball Steel. And it's never had visits. I had only had one visit in, um, Stamford House. And that's what also changed me as a person. My dad came in as a, I'd been in there about, about three months or something like that. And they took me down with a visit and I could see all the screws laughing and all that, like, you know, Sunday afternoon. So, um, I think I was, I knew there was a fellow in there. I always remember his name was Lansdown and he was a proper bully. He was like out there. He was about 16, I was 13, you know, like, and he was always giving it to me like saying things. But he didn't go too far because I thought he thought I might stick, you know, do something to him. But he would, but he would, he was always making me uncomfortable. Anyway, I get called over a visit and I'm thinking, I wouldn't come and see me like, you know. So that thing after family knew where I was, because I was, I was also elusive. When I was gone, I wouldn't tell me, they didn't know how we were suffering in the basement. I didn't tell anyone, you know, no friends, no, we just had that. And so he came in like in here all singing, coming in and then suddenly turning afternoon and I'm thinking, oh no, please don't, I don't have these things in the piss, like looking and all that. So when he's come in, come in and all that and just laying down and laughing and he said, look where his mum there like, you know, where his mum there. So I just jumped up, and I take him like, you know, just there was it, just I went off my trolley like, you know, straight after the visit, not on the visit. And his mum was laughing, they're all laughing, like on the visit. And I was just going, I just said to my dad, dad do me a favor, go please, don't stay here. So he went, oh, I love you. I said that, I like, please. But he'd been shot in the war a few times and he used to look worse than he was, but he was drunk like, you know. So that was, I remember that, I still remember that now, I'm 75 like, you know. So Stephen, did you feel lonely, even though you were in Boston, you had friends, but was it a lonely time because nobody visited you? And everybody else was getting visits. Did you feel left out? Most of the, yeah, I'd say that was where I ended up. I think I got visits near the end. I was sending out VO's or nothing to anyone. Why? Just didn't. I just thought, no, I don't want to drive them mad, bring them up here, you know. And I wasn't, you know, they had their lives, everyone had their lives. And then near the end, I think they had my sister and that couple of sisters came up to see me when I was about say three or four months to do, you know. But I wasn't there. I was, I mean, I was running wild out there. Like we just, it didn't bother me having no visits. It was a long way away as well. I don't make an excuse, but it was in them days like, it was 1966, I think, World Cup thing, or 60, yeah, 66 when I came out and about 68. What did you do, and you came out? I bought a store. Yeah, I've done a bricklaying course of bullsills. So I started bricklaying and I was building and all that genuinely, you know. But then I also had met some good pals in the area. So when I was running, before I went to Ball Steel, I was doing bits of work, which could be like, nothing fancy enough, three, four grand for that. And, you know, that was it, of course, when I've come out, there were good grafters and all that. And we've got a couple of older people. And now we were doing the same things and getting a lot more money. So that was what I started doing that. And then I would stop it and go back to building. And I used my money to sort of get because I came to the front a few good few times. And then I got five in 1971 for Robin van in Victoria. My next brother-in-law of mine was a security guard. So he kept, he was giving us, like we were getting things up in before and like, like he's to, it was Westminster's councils. Owned security vans. And they'd be playing all their way. They had thousands of people working from, so they'd be carrying their waste slips around, waste packets around. Then they also used to empty every parking meter. So they, we had a key for the parking meter that we'd go around just before they'd be emptying it. And we'd go around the van, similar van to them. And so that was gone. We were finding a good few ways of getting money like, you know. How much was in the parking? Yes. I can't remember now, but they'd be full up, whatever they, you know. I mean, we had every single one of them, like, you know. The van must have been heavy though, with all the coins. Big bag fulls. I couldn't even carry them, like, you know. But it was, I think it was like, two bobs and all that in them, like, you know. So you were earning then? I was earning money. Was life going good then? But a life of crime, money in your pocket for the first time? Yeah. That was it. I was in, yeah. Was that you all in? That was it. Was that a regret in your life, John, that you'd done the bricklaying that you never fully committed to that? Or was other life just too glamorous? Real regrets, because I ended up in the end, because I turned all everything in, around in the 80s, early 80s, and I became quite big in that build, lined it up, had all the contract for Wembley, you know, stadium, the old Wembley Stadium. I had worked on the new Wembley Stadium. I had built our own properties. So I carried it on, you know. And I was running big, big building sites, and, you know, so it wasn't, it wasn't, although I'd still go at this, that's from then, good few years, from like, 84, I'd say, up to early 90s, maybe 90s. Yeah, I was earning decent money, like, straight money. But I would also, if someone came up to me and said, I've got a 40 foot container, full of fireworks, blah, blah, blah, there were 60 grand, you could have four grand, 12 grand, whatever it was. I'd go and find someone and say, I'll give it to you, like, a pony like, you know, so I'd make money that way, like, you know, without touching anything. I'd phone someone, I'd say, go and pick that up, and I would, so that's where I was getting a few good. So you know, no matter what you were always earning, I would think you had Sam Muller on, he was X, he was IRA, part of IRA, mad bastard. Changed his life, went to America, met his misses, got the kids, working in the casinos, life was going amazing. The guy who was loving life, somebody came to him, listen, I've got a ton. His mindset, what is it? And it was a robbery in New York, he had the life, he was making money, something just dragged him to it, ended up getting a lifer and ended up doing the tunnel. It was one of the biggest heights in New York then, I think it was the 80s or the 90s, and he just, he couldn't resist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I've sort of, I've done a course in here, but the course, you know, the course was all right this time, my mind up, early doors, that I wasn't going to do anything, because as well as doing little things or allegedly doing things, I was done for things which I had nothing to do with, and I mean, I can prove conclusively I had nothing to do during the trials, but the Flying Squad was saying to all their own pals, he's not going to escape there again, he's done, he slipped out of it, he must have, and they sort of were, because they knew that they had fitted me up, they were saying he must have got into the jewellery, let's talk about it, I've never, ever, ever got into any jewellery, and I had to, they've had no dealings with police because I know how crooked they were, not everyone, but the ones I met. When I got that fight, that's what set me against them. There was a fella there, I don't know if he's dead now, his name was Teddy Wilcher or Teddy Brenton, a nice fella, he was a partner of mine, you know, as a sort of a cafe thing, we also had a club coming out of it, a disco, but I was only 21, 22 that night, you know. So for that bit of work that I got, we had the van in Victoria, so I had a touch, I got a five, really five, but he was totally innocent, but one of the people on the work gave old Bill some of the wage packets to put on him, you know, who had been on the work, we didn't know it, because he was a right well-known face to get you done it, and to me, I sort of look up to him, until I knew the SP of him, and then I knew what he was. So the police knew that this fella was totally innocent, and yet they went about and they fitted him up on this to save their grass, and he got us a seven, and it nearly killed him, you know, but the guy who was a real nice man, you know, he'd been in trouble when he was younger, but he was 52 then, I mean, we wouldn't have dreamt of asking what he was 52, he wouldn't have come with us, we were all 20, you know, so that was it, and I looked at their faces and when I went to call, I pleaded guilty to try and get him out there, and I went and gave evidence for him, and the company I was to say they weren't on it, but everything was, well, you wouldn't tell us if they were, would you? So I said, well, no, I wouldn't. I said, because I'm not a grass, I never will be a grass. I said, but I'll tell you, if they weren't there, I said, so, you know, my conscience is clear, so it's not, you do what you want to do, I know what you're going to do, and the jury just believed, they just thought he's just trying to help, and the police wouldn't do that, and he's a deal in here, he's the same fella who played me throughout my life, because I slaughtered him and told everyone what he was up to, and then I came out in 1974, and when I met him and his pal properly then, absolutely properly, I'd now carried on with the Brooklyn, and I'd gone to and got the Advance City in Guilds, and that was what I was determined to do, like building, I was building up contacts, and they put me out on a scheme called a hostel scheme, where you go and sleep back in the nick at night, and you work during the day, save your money, and pay the hostel for what they've got, and I'm sort of loving it, going out, and then all of a sudden, once a Saturday morning, because you've got a weekend home leave, they didn't even know I was home, I didn't think to start with, because I'd lost a lot of remission, you know, I was space, they'd come home in April, but I was still in prison at that time, going on rooftops, all them sort of demonstrations, you know, and yeah, so they ended up getting him, he pulled me in, it's just the first time I met this discloser, who got nicked planting the guns at me afterwards, after about 4th or 5th trial at the Old Bailey, so I spent, although I'd beat these cases, I spent latter part of 69, all of the 70s I'd done that sentence, it was only like, so just around 4 years of that 5 year sentence, but everything else was a not guilty, but I was spending every single one of them in their unit on a category A as a not guilty, and I'd finish it, come out and do it, it might be get 2 not guilty for serious robberies, and then they'd nicked me within 2 months and I'm back in, and they were nicking me with things, they were making it look like I was properly guilty, like this thing when they'd done me for the gun, I'd help get anybody to believe that the police were planting a gun on you, and they planted a gun and they sawed it in 2, put it in as a number stamped in it, so I thought no one's going to believe it, and I'm in the unit and I thought, I'm not even going to bother telling people that ain't my gun, you know, because my pals would go, they knew I was active, allegedly and they said you know, so I would say ain't mine, the guns aren't mine, why would I have a gun in my house, especially where they said they found it, they found it next to my ill at the time 6 year old son is passed away now, but they had the gun, they said they found it in a cupboard there fully loaded it was a shotgun and with the catch off you do that and it's in a cupboard like you know, you'd just gone out and picked it up and done it himself so it was obvious it wasn't mine, I'd never had anything indoors like that, just wouldn't like you know, loads of places you can put anything like you know anyway, so they've ended up getting the word happened a friend of mine was on trial for attempting murder I'd watched him getting arrested this is how I built up, I'd be as quick as I can and he he'd been done badly himself a couple of times and then the person who done him got done cut like with standing or something like that you know, but he got done anyway so my pal was on trial but before he's on trial, he's obviously getting nicked, me and him are sitting in a pub with the same fella who ended up putting the gun on me and also nicked me for all the other things, he's walked in and he's just walked up to him like smoothly and that you'd never think he would do it to you like he's got a smile, like the smile of the assassin who used to call him he's come in smiling and he went, yeah, just got to take you away from him and all that and all the others are screaming and with the guns, don't move, don't look so he said to me, John look will you call my brief he said, I don't want to talk to this man not at all, he said I'm not going to say one word to him all the time at the police station so I said yeah, definitely so I went to the pub, while I'm still there I was going to use your phone please so he said use the phone I was saying if I'm not phoned out, same to Lizard, he's a fighter like James Orton, real straight man and a fighter and he was an anarchist if you like in his way, you know he was in fright and to call a cousin on the dock so that's what he done, I phoned him and they recorded the time that I was talking I said yeah, he said he's got to say nothing he wants you to come to a police station as soon as possible I believe they're going to Paddington Green Police Station although they didn't tell me because that's where they used to take people anyway with that that's all that happened but they actually recorded the whole conversation so I thought I wouldn't even be one to give evidence for but they nicked him they verbaled him to bits like just say yeah what you're going to do, he didn't say a word like he's got a brief there so when he went on trial at the Old Bailey I gave evidence for him just to say that little bit a few other people gave evidence for him anyway he got acquitted on a Friday and I was up there and it was my own fault that time because I was flash if I got knocked guilty I'd put it in their face and when I look back I would have done it to me if I was them I was looking back now and there was no need to be I was just arrogant really that's the thing I would never advise anyone about doing it because they've got time on their hands they're going to get you whatever happens that's what happened he got acquitted and they walked up to me they didn't realise there was a barrister there called Michael Mansfield who's well known and he heard them saying at the time I was really the biggest face and he went you fat bastard you're going for him you're doing his bird but he didn't see Mansfield in front of him or a solicitor so I said would you say and I called him a flat nose he said you're going to wake him you slag fat slag so I said alright we'll see and that was on a Friday on the Monday morning my door came to smash it in my gun and his hand was shaking I got it in my mouth not with two bow but there's blood all over the floor he's standing on top of me my six year old come and see him screaming the gaff down and they don't say anything's been found they take me and two other people who'd come back from MoMARM that day painting and decorating and he fell a kip after a few beers and they're down in the police station when I get there and with that this fella called Ross you'll hear a lot more about Ross he's just passed away apparently about two months ago but he was involved in all the news of the world scandals and everything you know where all the bad family done a whole lot and with the Brinks Mac they were involved with all that as well took a few credit out of it I know because I've known people on there as well and he gets it he cuffed me behind me back everyone else is alright so I thought I might cuffed up and I soon found out he's walked in he's put a black bag on the table and he put it out and he went can we have the arms please I'm responsible so we found this into him he's covered and I jumped up and flew at him and he's running so they never came near me I was in there for four days and they wouldn't come into the cell so I said I'm going to do anyone who comes near me and I said this fella from my mom was a straight man and he just said I've seen something really shabby he said how could you do that to a man he went you shut up we all nicked he went yeah go on then but he couldn't nick him because he'd been in it for three years painting and I'm not he just said I've never seen anything like this so we went away for that it was incredible I'm remand they used to remand you then up to a committal trial what was it three months back then I was a man for years years in remand yeah I remand all my time I was basically around eight years I'm remand seven years it used to be 120 days back in Glasgow about 20 years ago but they changed that yeah they could do what they like the police wouldn't even interview you and they said see when I stayed in that cell according to them they even had a uniform straight now came in saying but I used to take all their numbers and I had at the time they said it was my memory was unbelievable at that time I could remember numbers so I'd be thinking of going right away through these numbers and I'd think of the ones I had seen so then when they came to a trial or whatever it would be they would be coming up saying it's completely different old buildup they weren't even there saying yeah we went down and we got him we took him we led him to the interview room they sat in there and died and then he said this and he said that so that was it that was all being said but after about 10 weeks of screaming and shouting every single week I used to go to the thing you faggot you're going to be in there do you slang and blah blah because after a time we had a tape recording on them saying give us ten grand or five monkey, five, whatever the figures were and we went for two of these things so they were saying anyway it doesn't matter about that does it but he's in there isn't he you give the money and you're sweet so they started threatening people on this tape so the person gave us the tape and the one who had actually done the tape was one of the Guinness family he couldn't be he was like billionaires so he couldn't be at over saying I've bribed him what would I give him like you know so they ended up I was in there for about say maybe 18 months could have been two years in that unit in Brixton and they came up and operation countrymen had started an investigation into corruption in the Met and the city of Lungan Police so my solicitor said to me John these reckon that they know you're innocent so I said well I went now and I said no Bill because my thing was often I'd only seen corrupt ones so he said John do me a favor see these people they're from Dorset and they've come in to investigate the Met so I said alright so when the fella came up to me I was saying so he said look let me just tell you first he said we know you're innocent but you couldn't have been where they said you were on the robbery and we also know 100% that the gun was never your gun so I went they didn't go any further than that I said but we've got it so what they had done I would be able to cut the if they put it in another fella's house and said it me and him had cut the shortened the barrels and all that kind but of course they and then they rubbed all the numbers off like we've filed it when the numbers were checked they belonged to a policeman called John yeah anyway and so he admitted he admitted giving them the gun the day before they came to my house right so they're all now going to give evidence against him and they've sort of got necked the four of them so now I gets comes out and it plays a glory and they've got me and coming out with that it was a massive acquittal and every newspaper world in action run BBC were all out saying what's going on and the guards in giving their due had fought my case right the way through and I didn't dream it was ever going to happen but of course it is now what would you have got life guaranteed life because of all the acquittals I'd had for a shotgun they ended up putting a bank robbery on it and something else on it how many charges have we got for I think it was three possession of a shotgun we intend to endanger life robbing a bank threatening people and all that when did DNA came out I think about the 90s but properly it's still coming out now yeah they ended up when they were on throttle they asked me would I definitely give evidence for them so I said because they had got me out I said I will but I was out on bail for 18 months every day going to work and coming back and it's a nice big bottle to work and I say to the people at work they were going to my places where I was working and saying you know he's an old robber watch me to get your gear delivered anything delivered here beyond life so they couldn't the last time I got to work we were pals at the moment they didn't know it so they're going back to them and they're saying look at them and they said now they're working well he's doing alright but what they started doing they started pulling me naughty things silly things and they had to be careful of fitting me out now with robberies so they started doing me for driving things producing the same documentation for my own car once it was seven days seven times in nine days and until I got the explosion one day and I said to that countryman you're not protecting me it's all like we're not going to Paddock and Green the flying squad were in from everywhere they'd take me in the back if you give evidence against him it's on me blah blah blah so one time my friend he went this fella called Dick Reeves he runs his one of the top jollies he used to be a flatmate of one of the skiers who put the guns on me he said if you don't give evidence you won't be worried for the rest of your life you could do what you want so I said yeah alright he said but if you can do it's on you now we'll make your life the worst life you've ever had you could dream of like you know so I said yeah alright but when they kept doing it and bringing me in that's now got me up so I just thought I'm not going to give evidence for him and I thought fuck them they crucified me for all this life and what am I going to now let the people down who got me out but if that happened today and I had that gun now like for that Robert for the thing at Heathrow I couldn't get away because they just give you a no-jury trial they've got a thing now called public interest immunity supposed to be just terrorism and things like that and this was a robbery where it was just flying squad the chief prosecution and the judge downstairs on their own for days at a time talking about anything and everything right then they come back and I even had that at the judge alone trial so they could have been saying to the judge alone yeah it's killed a few people he's been on about 30 bits of work can't let him out he said don't you just might do the informant he couldn't spend anything he didn't talk about anything like that so we didn't hook so my three so he passed away now just QC Casey John Aspinon he said how can I defend this man he said you're dealing this whole thing in secrecy anyway with that two days later three days later I was coming home from work and I was kidnapped basically kidnapped by the same squad eventually flying squad and they took me just to a police station out of any room never come out of the cell and they took me the next day they just charged me with robberies four years previous I've been like so you couldn't get a defense free like where were you on that day like you know where I was but one of the robberies that they charged me was I caught him banked to rights so I kept stum and the second one they were caught banked to rights as well because one of the people were in prison at the time of the robbery and he kept stum on my behalf so that they could see what he got what they were doing to me but all they done was they took me back up to the bait lead to their trial right by now I'm here brought up helicopters arms really machine guns all they were to call them and their jury who've seen me giving evidence for four days at the box and they were all right they were not into me and I'm in the jury so when I'm going to stay standing me right outside their court we're going to come out at lunch we get there a quarter once they're going to come out at one o'clock when they came out they've got about I couldn't tell you how many there were so many uniformed with submachine guns rifles and everything and I'm cuffed to two different causes right because I've got all bricklayer clothes on me where I've been bricklaying I just looked like a tramp and had a shave where I've been like they let me and when I went in they just brought me back in to give evidence they took me in cuffs up to the witness box and then let me I'm done in the cuffs I'm so dangerous and then they just said all they said was two questions the one who'd asked me to be kept on this John Ross he said where did you spend last night so I said I think you know that didn't you your client got me there so he went I don't know what about what are you charged with I said robbery of course now the jury's heard that and they don't see it they've seen all the things and helicopters they thought yeah they did put the gun in but he's a fucking dangerous man he's done that to robberies like you know so the geezer who made the statement against him the policeman was allowed to withhold that that statement that he'd made and he made one to the Metropolitan police right and forgot to tell you prior to that he disappeared and they couldn't find him they went to where he worked in the Met he's a police inspector and they said where is he like we can't find where he is but they've done all their inquiries countrymen and the Met had transferred him to Northern Ireland to serve over there so when he came back and all that he said yeah I made a statement but he'd made a new one outside saying he had to get the gun I did have that shotgun but I was in Hammersmith doing some shopping and I left it in the car and someone smashed the window and took the gun on the Sunday so now it could be me I smashed the window and took the gun and not them. Having previously said I gave it to him on Sunday I didn't know they were going to blow me on him that's how it was his first statement he was going to get it so they ended up the jury just made another statement saying so their prosecution apparently said our prosecutor he said did you report it your gun not being smashed and I said what you didn't report it so Hammersmith police had you where you work but someone smashed the window and your thing and he went okay but the judge actually told him to acquit him because he just thought he'd seen me at the old bay the old bay he was getting knocked out of his and he thought no we've got him here I'm not going to put these away for him because he thought that was straight but in the meantime the thing that they'd nicked me for when I eventually tried I had a moody super-grass saying that he was there he'd been in my house and my house at the time was a flat it was only one floor but it looked like there was two floors and they kept saying because my son was the one who died it was his birthday on one of the robberies so he kept saying what they told him he went there was a birthday like I know it was his boy's birthday so I said when Hammersmith said to him which birthday was it did you see him the boy he went yeah he was in the place he said where was he he said upstairs and he came down he went oh yeah yeah he said so you're sure of that he said yeah then he said well look try to guess how old he is he went no he said was he walking was he like seven was he twelve was he two was he in his arms he went he looked about two well he was twelve at the time so he said you don't know I'm at all active to do it nothing happened to him though but what they had done when they on that trial one of them was for a robbery where a dog was hurt and it was blood and hairs they'd gone into my house I couldn't remember the robberies four years previous to this about five I think they were doing I'll try to do you before the fight yeah yeah for all five I was guaranteeing life so he said and I was going I thought I was going I was gonna believe this again now like you know so it just a stroke of luck there was one of the robberies where a dog was a fired I don't remember he was shot at or something but it was hairs from dog and blood from dog and something on me was put on a yellow jacket right and the road runners one you know the you know we see working in the roads yeah it's an ordinary work cause yeah yeah so one of and they picked a jumper out of my thing a cardigan like a cashmere cardigan out of mine that cashmere cardigan was put in all the cars all the every crooked car that was gone every seat had cashmere hairs on it also had cashmere hairs in the yellow one and it had a dog from the blood and hairs and the dog and all that so going through the half way through the time when he started out at the prosecution was the top cross in the country he turned around and said manager man you won't have any trouble convicted this man when you hear although the thing was found in the other blows for car to me's blood the dog's hair sounds and sounds and by that man there he was war and we've got the forensic evidence to prove this down the line so so to try and now the can he don't know the SP he don't know they've put it on me but I know it can only have been put on me so I'm saying to Mansfield Michael it's not possible so they made it he asked where did the coat come from it it turns out the coat was made in Belgium so they brought the bloke over from the factory that built a safe of Murphy brothers or one of them a road road building thing that you know they got the coat the coat hadn't even been made the coat was made two years after the robbery he said you sure they said you have got a batch number it is the batch number that's it blah blah blah so they know it can't be that now same thing with the with the cardigan I said to him I bought a car and the car didn't come from the Edinburgh Woolen Moon I said it was so and so I said that was there something about you know I certainly weren't away so they found out that both them so the fellow that was with me got acquitted they wouldn't acquit me because it still seems mad didn't it like and the about third I think it was there was a 16 18 police from the assistant commissioner to a WPC all gave evidence against me they're all because he got them all together to do it like you know so he turned when it and they made an application five days before I start the second trial goes up in front of the judge he says we're not going to use these clothes now these jackets and we don't want him to he can't mention them Mike you know because we don't want them to know that there's been a retrial so the judge has gone yeah that's fair so I went what and I'm giving it to him there so the judges and Mansfield said to me can't believe that I said I'm telling them don't worry about that when I'm in the witness box I don't care what what he says I'm doing it you know so now he's directed I'm not allowed to say nothing so it's going right through but he hasn't mentioned the coat in his opening speech so when I get in the witness box he started to talk to me I said he called me a liar for one thing I said you have got some front and I said you are the most corrupt man I've ever come across and so is he the judge I said you both talked to each other I said you know that that you've asked me not to mention that you they planted a lot of stuff on a yellow coat and so it wasn't even made so the jury looking up and they're putting questions up so the judges went you keep quiet so I said I'm not going to keep quiet I said look let's prove it just go and get the transcript of the last trial and see what happened and get the transcript when he was in the doc making an application to you the other day I said why wouldn't you want the jury to know that that coat couldn't have come from you know anyway it's got a long story short the jury still found it difficult to but I think they've said it was a vote of eight to four on a quill so they couldn't carry on with a third trial so I was I was acquitted but then it was put about so he's got into the jury that's the only way he got out of that they didn't mention anything about the coats so they then got the rest of the fly squad to hate me so that's why I became notorious but the only notoriety was for not guilty you know at the Old Bailey because they did more not guilty's I'd got than most people like you know because I spoke up for myself and because they had fitted me up like they used to do the same evidence the same verbal was used in three countries three trials like you know so you ended up getting away with that then who has the corrupt couple even they met no I think there's 34,000 but the over a thousand just get done with corruption which is one in every 34 well there's there's so much corruption still going I mean you can tell now what's going on but then it was rife there was one was called Terry Babich he was the detective inspector he was the night he was called by a servant psychopath is that the one who tried to plant the gun and stuff on you him him and one called John Ross John Ross actually planted the guns but John Ross ended up working still with all the police if you look him up as Nick Harris has got Nick Nick Davis has got a thing about him he just said that he he was done for after our thing he was done for drugs he was done for involvement in the bricks mat he was since he's been out this is you know the last thing was he was the first one that for bugging the people on the news of the world case you know like so he's all over that as well he got a fella called John Yates who was the assistant commissioner of the police on the anti-terrorist unit you know he got him a job at the news of the world as well and yet to get me this non-jury trial they took they I'll go into the details if you don't mind after trial 3 but they only gave it to me eventually because this fella John Yates they called him up to the high court when they'd all been refused a no jury trial they said no no they were having a trial like you know so they called him and I saw him in court so I said to my QC what's he doing up here Yates I said he's f***ing bent crooked as I come so he said I don't know they're calling him for something I said he's bent like I know the head of counterintelligence with him Peter Clarke and another fella so I just said something crooked there like you know and there was a woman right around the times and she went yeah that is John Yates I said well what he's doing here I said oh yeah I know all about him he's well crooked like you know anyway when he goes into court in the morning to get this right and the judge is poo pooing it he went no they're not we're not going to give a no jury trial everyone's entitled to a trial we've got two very senior and independent police officers coming to see us on PII you know that thing I was telling you this afternoon so they went down with the whole bill and would accuse it when he came back after speaking to them he just said no I am minded to give the trial with no jury this is too serious I've heard from very independent police officers and I said to my brief was one of them Yates asked him was one of the Yates we asked they PII had the names of the two policemen who went down there it had never happened my solicitor said this had never happened in life and I wrote to the judge himself again to him the one who gave that judgment and two years later he replied to my solicitor I've had a little cry from Mr. Yes it was John Yates but I'm not telling it what was said and then John Yates within six months of that was getting pulled over the news of the world and got thrown out of the falls so I ended up being corrupt and that's why I ended up with the no jury trial so Stephen you're going through all that you get acquitted from the five robberies what was life like then it was I moved out to just too much pleasure I'd got Ken Libby he's an MP I'd been asking to be moved I said if I was a super-grass giving evidence against all crooks like robbers or whatever I'd be treated I could go where I wanted you'd have me in a program etc I said this 300 policemen lost their jobs down with me because it just went on and on and on but I I'm left around Paddington and I'm still getting intimidated all the time can't go to work they're going and following me to work they're doing everything to make me go back at it again but I wouldn't go at it there's too much you want to op on that and that was it I'd done my last conviction I got done for 11 50 pound notes, crooked notes that's how I got it how many brick land I get a lot so I'm fake notes fake 50 pound notes and it was on a good Friday, I got nicked in Luton and they put me, it was the same little old bill took it over took over part of the thing from Luton and they gave me they made me category A and I could only get two years if I was convicted so I went to Bedford prison in a segregated union they kept me separate from everyone like a nuns the only other one who was there was old Frank Fraser but I knew Frank so he knew the SPT so me and him just had bought round together but I'm doing 50 he went well you're in Luton I went 1150 pound notes I said that's why I'm in Luton so I went into the governor the next day a couple of days later and I just said you're a disgrace, you're run by the flyer's got a prick in your nose I said how can you do that for years but I won't even get that I said 11 notes and it turned out I got a suspended sentence for it but I've been on the book for like 8 weeks so you went legit then because of the pressure of the flying squad just try to get you were you constant surveillance every day? after about a year and then they moved me out to Harrow and then I struck lucky with the work I just ended up getting at Wembley I was getting a lot of people I was 30 or 40 people at Wembley all year round and I had building things for ourselves and it was just I was being left alone and I got right into the football training I started running kids football teams my own kids and that and that's what I've been interested in trying to keep them out of it all kids out of it but what struck me this time the only reason I really wanted to come on and do a thing is because my Robin got he's not he's doing it how he's doing the sentence nearly finished it who was that? my step son my step son is he doing that straight for a robbery? no not robbery for drugs you know there was a private phone but when the judge he was sentencing him they said to him he only had a phone they found no drugs, no money, no nothing else so they said well if you plead guilty the most you'll get is a six but because you got the same phone he didn't find the microphone but they could put it to him give you a six when he went in front of the judge the judge said was tried right next to where remember I told the other judge lived in Bremford and I wrote to him and said it he was tried at Bremford, I was at Worth and this other judge who I didn't know from Adam he said to Robin you're not getting a six you're not getting a six I knew your step dad before he was a jury tamper like he gave him the equivalent of an 18 cut to a 12 for nothing people were going with 10 times the amount and getting six and seven so I felt so sorry because he's not right you know so you're actually saying it now but they have never ever I'll tell you quickly now trial three how they stopped the trial this was only for this Heathrow so that's your third trial this is about the second one the first one was the guns the second one was Robin now all I had four trials for this Heathrow so the first trial I had a heart attack the second trial went through and they couldn't reach a verdict the third trial they only went through to the prosecution back for the start of the Heathrow thing so was your life going straight you're working doing the right thing how did it then come up that you were involved in the Heathrow haste well this grasp of it I met people to do the Heathrow so I won't I'm just going to say that I've got the feeling I'm not complaining about it now I could have been done for a conspiracy at best I met people in a park and that's what it was but they ended up making me meet them getting it all going so when we appealed that sentence I'll just tell you quickly we appealed we had four appeals and all four appeals were heard by the judge himself the same judge who ordered to draw with no jury and it's never happened in this country so we couldn't get out of his jurisdiction we said why can you hear how can you hear an appeal we're appealing against your decision and he was saying no I'm not allowing you to go to the Supreme Court not allowing you to go to the House of Lords not allowing you to go here so we were laughing and I said to the brief leave me out this is the thing so your life's going good is it 2004 that haste happened it's a weird thread but it was like they were saying you were tampering with the jury there was the end up no jury at the end up because is this the first time in 400 years or something since that the last one was Henry VIII they did block courts over in Ireland but that was three judges but this was one judge who heard all the secret evidence and then he's now my jury so whatever the police have said to him is ringing in his ears so we were never told it but I'll go briefly through that even came about for this third trial and it's impossible well we've gone through the two trials third trial we're going through I'd only ever been charged initially with conspiracy right and then they got a fella called a diatrist called Hayden Kelly who was saying he was a gate analysis he said all that so we believed him so they brought him up because they were going to have to throw me out of court because all the others I had been on trial with were acquitted on the first trial right so I had been acquitted second of us in the first trial so I would have been acquitted with them it's odds on I'm not charged for the heath floor stuff yeah yeah with me the child did the same for me, inspiring to Rob so including the grass like that so they carried on with the trial they took me away from the trial and they were all acquitted of conspiracy to Rob so I now they don't want to put me in charge I'm going to try with them again because they're going to know the jury that these were all acquitted so they don't want to do it so I'm trying to find a way of charging me with Rob with another group of people so they found a geese with some DNA on him and they charged me with him but they charged me with robbery they had to get this gate analysis all they had of me was me in a park talking to a fellow about a drawing and things like that saying they're in a park in Langley Park in Slough two or three times so if it drives us as coming of evidence they said in open court to the judge, the one from Brentford they said we have to acquit to me so they don't let us include the podiatrist thing so podiatrist said he hadn't interfered with any videos and the man one of the men seen in the robbery during the robbery, directing the robbery was me and it was saying the man he was talking about he was showing his legs his feet were turned in a certain way this that and the other and he walked the same way as this man in the country park but the cctv in Heathrow was like that he couldn't get anything like that so the judge just allowed it through he said you can charge them with a robbery now so they charged me with a robbery and they done that PII on him, we couldn't ask him any questions how did you get involved, who employed you what happened there how did you come about, why did you do that everything they were saying, no PII look at this PII public interest immunity, don't ask him that because you're not allowed to because it could be in danger it should be about terrorism but none of the QCs about that time no QCs could make head and tails of it they were saying to the judge why he's an expert witness we're just asking him expert things like why can't I ask him things to do how he's done this thing anyway he kept talking about it but by the time he comes to the third trial we've now got it out that he's we know he's telling lies like what we've done anyway I had a very wily old QC and he got it out and we kept talking and then he said to him who's Susan Marchant so he went sorry he went you heard he said I've got a statement here he said she was with you on that day so he went anyway it's a gut along story short he started saying he only recognised me because my feet were pointed a certain way and this robber who he was saying was me was also put in love way when you looked at this other robber he couldn't see his legs or anything and he's saying so he said what colour trainers has he got on all shoes he went I don't like it so he said well how can you tell what way they're pointing so he said well Ken he said what shall I say how you know like you know so anyway to cut long story short the jury in the end they wrote 48 notes in 10 different hands all coating the life out of him saying he's a fraud he hadn't even done the big thing and old Bill got it and it turned out the police themselves had paid him for all ground to look at 11 seconds of a thing for me and just to come and back what they said and when it's all coming out he said so you were in your laboratory doing this were you he went he said you could do what you want he said but you were in a laboratory you told him two trials now that you were in a laboratory doing this he went yeah he said you weren't were you and he laid down and he said you were in that eventually police station with the one in charge of the case who had was involved in the case previous for the when I was giving over to the police and them two together done it they had sped up all the DVD I knew that had to there was no other way and this woman came in and she said yeah we sped it up you know like sort of you doing Mickey Mouse you can make Mickey Mouse walk like that so they were making me and walk like the robber so the judge is now with the jury said can you please remove him from the we're going to make our own mind up about him and then then they said we are all very concerned why it's just Mr. Toomey's name comes up all the time we've had eight months prosecution and seven months of it have been on Mr. Toomey and there's four defendants so the judge is term animate well don't worry about that so my barrister stood up and he said members of the jury when he goes into court when we start the defense case on Monday you will know everything about John Toomey he said he's been at war with the Metropolitan Police for many many years and we'll tell you about the grass who's involved in this thing and we'll tell you about Mr. Kelly he said he can't wait to get in the witness book blah blah blah that was on the Thursday the judge says to the jury right members of the jury you come back on Monday and we're just going to work at a timetable now tomorrow so they've got us back on the Friday there's no jury in court so we're sitting in court now imagine if a jury has been tampered or they think he's been tampered right they're now talking chatting away to us so they said when how long do you think he's going to be and blah blah we're all saying how long we think we'll be in the box and this day now so then the judge said we can do this on our own can't we why do we need the defendants here they're on bail now they can go home for the weekend this is what he's saying so the prosecution have agreed you know so he said and before you go he said to the senior to the QC for the press he said Glenn Cameron which is Caroline's brother he was completely innocent fellow he's like 52 he was a roofer he would have seen me in a car a couple of times but that's all they were saying he was in the car driving me around they knew that was the reason but he said you're not actually really saying are you that he's an armed robber and they went well we'd like to play it by ear he said no you can't play it by ear we've gone through all the evidence he said I want you to come back after lunch and tell me what you think he said also in view of what's happening with Mr Kelly here I'd advise you to start thinking about a conspiracy to rob charge on John Toomey and not robbery so you can see all the faces all looking around like that so he said alright I'm going to say do you got any objections to bail imagine like that so they said no no I'm just about same thing they can all go home he's out in bail for the film I was in custody for the first couple of years so it was in six years of trial so it was the first time you were reminded then for two years yeah I was in Marlin on the unit for two years and then I ended up going back two years then I got under house arrest most of you know like the other things they don't like the Islamic terrorists they had a thing for them special thing well mine was stricter than that I was only allowed to walk outside my front door and go 200 meters to the left and 200 meters to the right the police used to be both sides between 3.30 and 5.30 from the afternoon and that's the only time I could go out alright and they allowed me to go to church on Sunday I know one and a half are there so you never had a 77 King the Cuff you thing no no no I had a 24 hour day tag on they took it off for that hour and a lot of took it off yeah so that was it so now I thought well I ain't got you know I want to go across the road and see what they say when they come back you know this is now what's all that's happened so they've all gone home my brother-in-law and the other two fellas I've gone across the road have a coffee and when I've come back into the call I'm still standing there like looking and they've looked around and they've run up and grabbed me Belmarsh Old Bill and they took me into the into the dog I didn't know what was going on never talking about jury tampering they've been all day thinking and he's sent them out to a quitters anything said so in the meantime they've thought he's getting out of this and so is he so we'll have to stop this trial somehow so that's what happened and they've we were getting acquitted and when we went on that non-jury trial I'll show you something I'll get handy to show it to you it's a draft copy of a fella called Martin Short you might have heard of Martin he was a good writer he just passed away a little while ago a documentary about him he was making a documentary on Stuart and the Trial so he turned around and said during the non-jury trial three of the women who were on that jury that got stopped right they came up to him and a brief a solicitor and I said we can't believe what's going on here they said we had him acquitted they were acquitted said that there's something really crooked going on here so he said well he said no the solicitor couldn't say anything because if he says it then he's nicked so I mean what I would like to say is any of them people on the jury who were nobled or anything like that come forward and say it because I wouldn't be charging it because so far they've said they will never ever tell me that I was acquitted I've asked them to charge me at the time because it was an incorrect decision I wouldn't have been convicted with them with a jury I might have got a dump of conspiracy I might have done because not to they couldn't have proved that I was conspiring into the into the place so this is the third time so you've basically got acquitted they've then seen that the jury's been tampered got rid of the jury so how then in the first time in 400 years that they've got rid of the jury was that that excuse because it's been tampered that was the excuse yeah but they then said oh what's their tampering we've said like and they said well we're not going to say whether they were or not but they could have if they wanted to right so it's this but that could happen with anyone he said Mr. Toomey's asking if there could be an independent inquiry from an outside police force or anybody to talk to the jury and see what's going on and what you think the cops did up and said he said because he said the trial so far have allegedly cost 28 million pound so why don't you want an inquiry into it just to speak to him they wouldn't admit it they never admit it well these are not admitting it but they're on trial that's what you get a trial for we never know if you don't sell this in London when we went up on a further application to try and find some more evidence so we could fight it even in Europe they saw a man and said we have not disclosed anything and we are not going to disclose anything so he said so he can't fight this case and you are never going to disclose what happened to stop this jury but no and that's what's happened that's how it is and that's why people don't realise that they think that we were knobbling the jury and they've got it they've never said it what are you thinking then when there's a no jury you automatically think you're fucked I'm not gone the juries are supposed to be tried with 12 people of your peers the same sort of people as yourself it should be like you know well I've got a judge who went to probably eat in an Oxford and I've got me who lived in a basement windows out and everything else and robbed the only people like that were 12 judges but at least if I'd have had a jury no matter where they were from they might have been they've got somebody who could see that it's not right but no judge every judge you go in front of because I used to leave a verbal win for everyone they knew it wasn't evidence but they used to convict people one after the other for robbery who was the grass that Don Queens his name was Darren Brockwell and who was he he took the robbers in on that night and the prosecution asked him in all trials was John Toomey in the van when one of the men he went I can't tell you but he was talking to him he said I was talking to the man who took us in and he was a proper full time brass the police that one he's named Herbert he told him I didn't know his name when I was talking to him in the park he said well he never knew his name so when we get to his first statement he's talking about me all the time yeah John Toomey so he said I thought he didn't know him he went I didn't he told me and the copper had already come in the box and said no I never disclosed any names to him wouldn't tell him I'm not going to disclose John Toomey he said well he's come up and said yeah he did the grass the grass has helped you he just said he was telling the truth he said yeah I didn't know his name I'm surprised the copper's never told him they did probably he changed his tunes every trial but when the first time the judge called him the first time one of the worst liars he's seen in court by the time he's come to the jury judge with no jury that jury had said well I find him a very truthful man so then in your jury how long did that so what happens there then with all the evidence that they've done they just have to start a new trial in front of the judge with all the same shit that you've been through in the last three trials yeah how does it work it doesn't work at all it is it was quite comical if you weren't involved in it as the briefs were starting to talk he'd say to him hang on a minute you don't have to try and impress me I'm not the jury you've got no jury so he stopped talking to people he went that's been a while hang on a minute there's no jury to impress here and when you do any speeches keep them short and exact I know I'm listed there you know so I'll wait until I was in the witness box because what I had actually wanted to do I said to the others you know you're going to get convicted of this there's no way they'll be equal because the only verdicts the ones that they have juries for the only verdicts were not guilty and the only verdict on the ones where the Joan only were guilty but they never convicted another jury and with a jury no one but everybody got convicted with him but you couldn't so I said what we do let's just go in there say to him what I wanted to say I'm not taking part in this trial if you want to try on that try me give me a fair trial with a jury but in the meantime I know what you want to give me you're going to give me 20 or 30 years and I don't want to give you the satisfaction of just giving it to me I'd rather do it and show you what it is it's just a kangaroo call and so I'm leaving here now and I'm going down so you get on with the trial I'm not putting any witnesses up and I'm not going to ask any questions I could sack my barrister now and I said if we'd have all done that they couldn't have handled it and if you can you give us a jury if you're why are you fighting to give us a jury you know could you not appeal that or anything we appealed that's what I'm saying we appealed yeah we appealed the same judge wouldn't let us go the James judge who made that decision to ask for no jury he heard all his own appeals and he sat there and he just went I said to my brief he went to the third one my brief said he's a judge he was a judge at Southampton he said no he can't do that he's got to recluse himself he said we're going to something's happened in the law now it's changed to the 26th of June he said so all we've got to prove here is a question of importance it's just got to be a question of importance so he said and this has never happened since Henry VIII he said so it has to be decided at the Supreme Court I said I better don't he said as he said he won't be there I promise you you're too panicky now we got into the courtroom he walked down and he looked around at me and he went so sorry he's standing right in the middle of them and when the brief said it's a question of importance you have to let them go to the Supreme Court was that way we'd have had nine judges and we'd have gone on a majority you know and he said the majority will give you a trial for jury he just said no it's not a question of importance he must have had a lot of pull to then put the blockers on that as well he was the Lord Chief Justice it's all the secret handshakes this is what happened over this thing the woman in the court who was the CPS lawyer just a solicitor sitting in the back writing for him straight after our case after we got convicted she became the director of the prosecution's Alison Saunders so they promoted her to there they promoted the QC to a top judge they all got promoted like you know did you ever think about doing their tours and fucking off I just I was trying to say to him look if I'd have had this robbery and I walked in surrendered myself on the 18th February 12 days after the robbery they kept putting my name up but all they were putting up there against their Metropolitan Police officers making out they were bent and all that trying to say like this is him blah blah blah not so much about the robbery bring them there when they just kept saying do not approach them under any circumstances so I thought they definitely wanted to kill me like you know I know that I definitely could get 100% it was million percent like you know when it came back from an alleged grass from the guy the intention was for me to be on the robbery they thought and they would shoot me on the robbery and nick all the others and they'd all put their hands up and they'd know nothing left about no one would know any of the wiser they wouldn't have known about the grass the real grass see this Darren Brockwell, I had owned any grudges to him he didn't even know what was going on him but the one behind the who got me on the first beat that private investigator I mean he was he's evil like you know really evil man so that's all you get done with just having a meeting yeah meetings on there does it and you got a 20 stretch yeah 26 months and they made sure about the six months and you're not going to get any of the time back that you were on a tag with obviously I should have got one and every two days a tag so it done me out of about two and half years and then and I had to get a roll in the category A all the way through to the last nine months what you're thinking when you get a 20 stretch was it a case of because it's a lazy done loads of turns anyway but was it a case of you're in that game you get caught or was it a sore one because you were innocent it was a sore one because no I literally never dreamt that I'd live till now because of having that other heart attack so I just thought this is how I meant to end it this is how it's meant to be but the funny thing is when by being in this air thing I I learned how to cope in a different way which helps me out here as well I just started meditation and I didn't I never used to meditate and I started to do it and getting you know gratitude and things like that and not having any embossing on people I haven't really got any embossing I haven't even got it on the slag wait I haven't got it but it's not it's not the empty open end though I just thought like I was like I'm lucky in a way because I come out of my family with me people who I thought were really good friends it's good as well because I've just sussed out what they are and who they are so I banked them I don't have anything really to do with them but not out of malice I don't sort of or anything like that just ignore calls and you know see because you had a heart attack before the case were you scared that you'd have died in prison oh yeah I was certain I was going to die in prison my mrs has said to me look John just admit this was in 2015 I was still fighting this case in unstopped 2016 and then they basically said you ain't ever coming off category A while you're fighting it that's it you ain't going to so they put a story down on a course something there about I was in a white van so nothing that never even happened on the robbery but they accepted that because at that same time I'd lost my brother his wife and his son all within 4 weeks and I was trying to get sent to Ireland deported like you know and I was going to live at their place and they all died within a month and it's everything seemed to go down my wife said look John they're not going to let you go you've been in front of the same judge you can't get out on an appeal there's nothing you're going to do for you you're going to have to do something on their ground she said what's the difference you ain't going to do anything anymore you know you're really like we're waiting for you no you've got grand children new grand children that had come and my kids I'd been away since the youngest were 5 and 4 you know and she said and they all miss you like you know so I didn't want them to treat you man so they gave me once I said that little nonsense thing I knew I was never going to if someone could say to me now there's no exaggeration come down the road and introduce him to him and you'll get x-men on the floor but you know I wouldn't do it for anything how hard does it see your messes and losing love ones and presuming you're involved in that Leafa cream it's absolutely awful and that's what I'm saying to you I literally hate the idea of seeing young kids now they're up for because it just shows you with me I mean people would look at me and think I had a successful life even though I went into prison because I did have a lot of money at the time you know over years but none of it mattered because at the end of the day I know some people and they're very heavy people and very people who've got lots of money out the other game and everything and they've got millions and millions of pounds and if they said tomorrow right you can have the other seven years and do it in here or give us back all their money I don't know one that wouldn't give it all back there's nothing in it in the end prison is now nothing like it ever was never was good and because I've got my family with me now they've I just wouldn't consider it and I just pray that anyone watching or anything, young boy, kids or something don't do turn their life away from this crime seems easy for me to say it now but it even caught me at this age and I was pretty sort of astute with getting out and getting the quittles I had all the friends while I was useful for people I was out all the time but no matter how useful you are they will still move on with their life while you're in there and you probably won't even get a Christmas card off them and you'll come out to nothing and not even that I think now a lot of the sort of victims that I had you know people you may not realise were a victim but I've probably made them a bag of nerves jumping in front of them and my gun was like so things that didn't matter to me then not didn't matter to me I just didn't really think of it I just thought it was part and parcel of the thing now matters a lot yeah it's Matt how we see the world then like if you're doing all that but this is why the podcast are so good I understand remember the abuse that you held the fucking the alcoholic dad the mum dying the tortured soul where you've no guidance you've no stability it's difficult because I had a kid on earlier 80% of people in prison come from the broken home yeah it's hard and you don't realise that until the damage is done when you're doing a 20 or 30 stretch in the prisons and then you're battling you've lost loved ones you think about the trauma you've caused people are scared, kids are seen it because that could eventually then lead them to fucking suicide and addiction but it's a selfish mindset as well and you don't realise to your own wait a minute, fuck me when you start that the realisation of the pain you caused in the past that's painful in itself but then people will say well he fucking deserves it that's the life that he read you can understand that as well I don't wanna not only sympathy because at the end of the day that's why I don't cry what I had what about this prison I went away and that was it I didn't start crying saying poor me I shouldn't have got what I got for the amount of things but having said that I've got a way of things it's... yeah that's right and I'm not complaining about it if that was what I meant to happen to me to pay for what I did I'll be happy I really believe in karma that's what they say when I've said meditation I meditate every morning and karma will that's why I'm not worried about the grass and all that he'll have his karma it just happens how hard is that though when someone does Don Queens is that years ago when I came out it was changed everybody's a fucking grass they accept it now people if they've got a few quid or they can have a right fight, they're alright I mean I heard among sailors a podcast talking the other day about a geyser who they got to give evidence against me and not just me QE against 100 and he was saying what a nice fella he was really lovely fella and I asked why am I now because I'd seen the geyser himself you know I just thought he's just a fool all he had to do was knock him out you know that sort of I'm not into any of that conversation you know those conversations are all that's the ones that are hiding something the most that's the fake conversations what deal did you end up in I ended up, I finished in Loudoun Range in 9am I spent about, I was in the units Bellmars then they moved me over to the other part of Bellmars then I went to Franklin I was like Kevin Lennon he's a mad bastard and Noel was a good fella Noel was a nice fella Noel was a good guy Noel was a good guy man he's got a lorry and he's gone straight and he's got a thing like he went to Grendan in sex cases it must have been difficult but he lost his son because I always had a soft spot from because he was notorious for these robberies and lost his son changed his life now he does his own publishing and stuff like unbelievable it's unbelievable that people can change as well he's doing his own publishing now he's booking stuff man, you're a good guy did you see that as well that people the broken souls to then who are trying to make changes and the difficulty of it trying to change I can tell the ones, I think I can tell the ones who are really genuine and they are I've read a lot especially in there inside time and all that yeah I'm delighted when people have turned it around now other people would be like people won't believe that I've done a podcast about you know just didn't like you know but I just wanted to flip it, I don't give a shit about what anyone thinks I don't want anyone else to work really this life and anyone who's in the nick doing a long time I just pray they get out quick there are a couple of people who I absolutely know are innocent and one's got no chance of coming home which is going on for a full wreck yeah same I've had a few on I had the ice cream ward guys on Joe Steele and TC Campbell it's just because the coppers told somebody to say here say tell me just tell us I've been saying that 22 years each fucking round their lives do you know what I mean well look at that fella who just came out the other day they had all the evidence where the DNA to clear him for the right or something and he got 17 to 17 years even people listen to your story people say ah there's something not quite right people need to understand listen there's good coppers as well people just try to do life and live a good life but there's so much corruption in anything the ones I who nicked me like I said I thought they were really straight in the first one but because they fitted that pal of mine up I felt bad for that but I've been nicked with them and they were really straight the ones down in Cornwall they done their work and all that and I just went straight up to the guilty and that's what you do and if someone was like your child you go straight you're caught first there's good and bad screws we had two horrible ones in the unit but we had a lot of half decent ones who was all in the unit he was in there Vic, Vic Darkman he's a f***ing asshole he's innocent I spoke to Paul I spoke to Paul last year or two years ago because Vic was saying about him but we were trying to get something to get a lie detector in to show that he's innocent because Vic used to vouch for him all the time I went through the paperwork with him we were in the unit together for about a year because we had messes the governor to try and get the lie detector to do the test but they just knocked it back they won't do it and there was another fellow near Joe Jones the same little Joe Jones any young kid absolute diamond life little football good football he was playing people asked with all that but I can tell you know you can tell because they're on their case and they're doing it and he didn't need to tell me because he said he said I ain't getting out I know that John I hope I'm young enough to have a child when I get out you know what I mean I felt really sorry there's good and bad in every walk of life I don't think every cause is bad and I'm not saying that I'm not saying that the ones I met because they're proven bad they put a gun on me they fitted me up with what they got caught out with and he then started saying it to the other ones and there's a lot of innocent straight cousins who actually think they believe what he was saying that I was like getting a jury on that because he didn't want to say look I fitted him right out he's never gone it how tired was that in your life John because they'll tell you see if they've got your interviews and stuff we're the biggest gang we always catch you know the shit they say how draining was that in your life that you're fighting against you know yourself one mistake you're done you see you weren't even making mistakes you were still done whether you were innocent or not you were still getting done but how draining is that becoming your life not against the corpus yeah you can't know but at the end of the day a lot of that was my fault because as I say I was arrogant to a matter because of what I'd done to Ted at the beginning and then fitting me up I could see none of them as straight you know there was one thing that they called this assistant commissioner his name was David Powers everyone was telling me how crooked he was right so when I got done for that gun thing he came to court over the one where I was arrested while giving evidence for him so they asked him a question they wanted from then they said and like I said John to me he's saying he's innocent for the gun crime I thank him he went let me tell you John to me he was innocent for that crime and he was a guy against crooked he said I'd call him gang member with like for uniforms and I couldn't believe it so after he said it we sued him straight away and they paid they paid up and they were offering all sorts of money to start with but we ended up settling low because didn't want to come back the next week and he couldn't do it me again but he actually said yeah he's innocent what's the worst thing about prison John the worst thing about prison is obviously the missing your family that's the worst thing for me now it's worse because there's a lot of young kids now they're getting mugged in there after you get any of them kids thinking of going in there now they've got all this stuff taken off them you know they get involved in and the actual when I was in Laudham Grange the ones who to go on the gear and I don't even let them they're so sad they're laying about on the floor they're certainly having no walk by I've seen a kid not a kid loads of them at Laudham Grange I was only in there for nine months slashing their arms and one used to put vapes down his inside his arm where he'd cut the holes and put them down again and the blood would be hitting the seal and they wouldn't even they'd look at it and say he's on the floor again and they wouldn't even consider there was no niceties about it like you know but the thing is you're away from all your family and when you're in your cell of an eye and you can let yourself go some's what you do like you know you'd be a liar if you said you didn't when I remember when I first went in for this thing it slaughtered me and I wouldn't let anyone see it I'd be arguing with all of them I'd break an exercise blood but go indoors and I'd start thinking she stayed every single day of it with me like 29 years now she stayed all the time all my kids were there all the visits but the kids from the first one it was just lovely that they were there and that's why I said I will do whatever I can now to please you to get out because I was going to stay there and stay in category A until 2029 really until now until next April and instead of that I managed to have three or four years I didn't expect to get this who did you get out I got parole they gave me parole from I've done all the courses I've done some courses but I told them truth on the course I said look it is a nice course but I'll tell you the things that are not going to get me never to ever go near crime again is my family my children I said I'll never leave them for any amount of money nothing you could give me now nothing would make it worthwhile do you think you would still be here if you never had your masses no I wouldn't have been there there was nothing to live for really because obviously you're fighting for your kids all your family but she was loyal so loyal she was every visit she sort of begged me please don't just stay in there don't waste your please do sound like we're for you like you know we're here for you we know what we're none of you we know what they've done but it doesn't matter when there's a penny drop that the leaf is it's fucked up it's back what's thinking on it yeah it's it was quite early in there after conviction when I actually got to a B cat I just because I really and that was not so you know people say I thought I was going to die of course I did because I had several operations I had a triple bypass in there as well on top of the first heart attack and then I loads of things went wrong I couldn't what couldn't walk about really you know so yeah it was I definitely thought my health wasn't going to last and I thought my mental health wasn't going to last because at times earlier on I was doing a lot of screaming and shouting at screws I mean if they didn't let us out on time and I'm getting on I could have just give me a back ender because that's what all the screaming and shouting and anxiety that's what causes heart attacks the stress it's like who are you fighting against but when you break it all down you're only fighting against yourself because the shit you went through as a kid all that hatred and rage and fighting against the system the bottom line is you can't beat the system you'll get a couple of turns, you'll get under them you'll miss the radar, you'll miss the shots from time to time, eventually you just catch they get you on their scope and they put one in your nut exactly I know I mean no 100% there's no we had a piece of paper out of Wikipedia sort of thing that said that was going to happen that's what they wanted to happen because they thought I'd slip out of a case and that was it so they were going to make sure they would do me they killed fellow called Kelly Baker and they killed a few people there was a fellow called Tony long years ago they say his fellow he killed I don't know how many he killed but he killed a few yeah he used to do a few on the job as a flying squad they just used to pop people left and right because they were licensed to shoot on site but they're not for robberies and when they shot a fellow called nice fellow called Dave Ewing he had no gun or nothing he was girlfriend and they just shot him do his head off straight away and pat me he's mad at that he started the Brixton rights because he fucking shot his mum that's what I'm saying this is all I couldn't see but the end of the day if you're doing bad it's a fair game in my eyes if you're doing bad it's just part and parcel of that fucking life you know what what was it like getting out I was unbelievable because I was Caroline came up to get me to collect me but I still didn't believe I was coming out I really thought there was going to be another charge coming out that's what I thought I thought there's something going on I don't know what it is but I'm not going to get out when I walked outside the door and I say I'm real can't go across the road, can't do this, can't do that so I got back into the swing a bit straight away I started driving a car and then I started driving a lorry I was nearly set me up I started driving a lorry helping my youngest son with a tip picking up some things like that I just wanted to get normal and that's how I was I remained that way I don't want to go change anything now I don't want I'd like to get the book I've written quite a fair bit but it's putting it all together I'm sort of there These things help because then people mess you, you've done great because even if you're a staunch guy, you've never fucking snitched you've done your 20-30 stretch in the jail doing these things you kind of feel am I doing the right thing, am I being a snitch but it's only your story, you're only talking about stuff that you've lived and the thing is true crime sales, John, why not make money from your pen, why not make money from the stories you've been through like the heist and the fucking coppers and fighting against them it's a popular story so you just know that, get the book Finishman and like I say these podcasts I know a lot of people can get you on their podcast and promote your book and it's just your story and for you coming on the days where a lot of people go what if I never tell my story then other people will tell it for you in the same hand do you know what I mean, you've watched enough guys on here now where you realise wait a minute they're doing it and they seem to be doing okay in life they're trying to do the right thing same as Andrew Pritchard he's flying man, he's doing the right thing he's came from, do you know what I mean that's what it's all about tell me if so, do you miss it do you miss it, world life not at all do you know no I don't because genuinely I started analysing some of the people that I was with and I didn't like I analysed a lot of good people, got a lot of good people got people I had a lot of respect where I counted as friends I realised now while I was flying and getting everything yeah I was friends but I was more an acquaintance to some of them and it hurt me you know so but now they don't say it but I actually know it but that's the sad thing about that Leigh if you know yourself when you get to jail there's your mum and your missus nobody else gives a fuck nobody cares and you can understand people got home in their lives maybe people are too scared that's your ride or die you're there for them, you should be feeding their family listen you're struggling now I'm going to make sure your family's okay you know yourself, you're talking one or two people if that if you get two people listen you're good friends did you see that when you were doing your big stretch that was out and then between years ago that was automatic you're just half the people like you know but you don't need looking after I don't want any pain that's known I don't want to be anything, I want to go and just do what I'm doing now really I suppose but I just couldn't get myself to sort of get around I don't want to say that I don't want to do this but I'm glad I've come because it's been nice and easy with you yeah of course, is that the hard thing to join when people forget you oh yeah yeah, that's the hard thing but the thing is with me it was difficult as well because I was always on category A from the day they put that gun on me I've never not been on category A by the last nine months of this sentence they kept me on category A also because you can't defend yourself and when you're in a unit I think if you look the statistics up I don't think they'll ever be must be a 98% conviction rate because you can't get acquitted in a unit because they look at all your defence you have to declare all your defence now before you so you can't, they call it an ambush if you actually say like I said, my friend didn't tell him that he was in prison at the time of the robbery that he was accused of doing to help me out, well he couldn't do that now you'd have to tell him so then they dropped that and I wouldn't be able to tell him that the friend was there because they just do that and they say I public interest immunity that's literally what they do it's a secret trial, it's a secret world of all the four trials I reckon, I don't know how many months would have been secret they ruled downstairs just the judge flying squad who were bent like some of them have been and the crown who won a conviction and you get any brief to say is that a fair process and they'll all say no but it's allowed and you keep saying what a great system we got but it's not yeah it's mad, don't it and when you're convicted you do not get out on appeal you know if you look at them statistics as well they've got a thing called a CCRC but that's just, they just put that in your way it's made up of a retired old bill judges, they're not all going to sort of get you out you might get one in thousands you know that can even get to the CCRC and then when they are it could be for stealing the bottle of milk it could be headlines in the sun got acquitted for it it's been released so that's why I used to fight my case at the trial because I knew if you convict me I'm gone anyway what's the best thing about being for the everything about it you know we just went to Ireland last weekend we didn't do anything I'd say we would have been getting everything but we ended up just getting a little cottage right out of the way we just sat down as a family the night we went out during the day and to see that freedom like my little grand student running up to little cows and things like that going on the horse and car up the mountain it was just things that I thought I wanted more all the time because obviously when you've got lots of reddies coming in all the time and you don't know where and you know that they're all coming you can go left side or right side you've got reddies coming but this was for me better than most holidays and we all said the same that's all it is this family if you can be in the present moment and enjoy your time with your missies listen well if we're honest my missies does my fucking head then but then again everything I do is for them my kids my missies my family I just retired my mum everything legit don't get me wrong there's more things there's more sharks out there in that world than there was when I was active this is the thing about life and this is what young men and young women need to understand everything is to do with family you work at it it's going to be hard days but you must stick by it talk to each other communication enjoy the good times because it's cheesy as shit is the best things in life are free a simple walk if you've got dog or whatever just spending it with family being present with watching your kids grow and playing because we're so caught up in this fucking materialistic world with mobile phones and try to chase money and dreams and followers it's all I don't know if you understand all that social media bullshit we've been away for 20 stretch but it's destroying people and people need to understand the finer things in life are free just sitting having a cup of tea with your missies just talking shit and laughing that's it for me that's what it's all about it's building families I just feel as if there's so many divorces there's so many separations there's so many broken homes and it just causes destruction yeah I'm with you we were saying we had murders we nearly killed each other because finding where to go he just went down that way like a chap then come out and both started laughing yeah because it's fucking silly because you'll know that life is far too short try and heart attacks us there's no point in getting yourself worked up that's it I'm okay like I don't really hate anybody that's the truth because I do understand karma because it will come and I know a lot of the stuff that has happened to me I must have deserved it simple as that even if I didn't do certain things I might have done something that I did and it could be anything it might have been taking a piss out of someone you're still looking good man 75 you're still looking good you still get the spark in your eyes you still get the shine so whatever you're doing is fucking working yeah I can't walk I can't walk I feel better no it's up where you're walking oh no I've had a knee replace I can't up and I've left me crutching and all you were just talking on the where just as well as a lift here he's touched on at the start of the interview about your son do you want to touch on that he's a good good boy he can't see me a lot as well he's from my first marriage and he's a good kid that's the one who said I had the gun next to where his bedroom was well he spent he was ill all through his life really in 2021 at least I was out for that that's another reason why I wanted to do that because he was cancer at a brain in 2015 he had fought everything and everything was gone so that's why we missus said look Mark as well you've got to come out and do your thing like you know so I did and then he did pass away in 2021 and he was buried on his birthday buried on the same day as my mum finally but he was he was getting all that confused now he got buried on his birthday and he died on the same day as my mum in January 2021 but we couldn't see him because they said it was to do with that disease you know the thing Covid and turned out when I wrote his death certificate it was a heart attack so we could have seen him so I left him in four days and I knew he hated the thought of being in there on his over that yeah so that I think of him quite a bit you know a lot do you think that's because of who you were though trying to fuck you around or do you just think that was just I don't think it was like and I just think that was and what they did to him once because I was playing up in the unit obviously you know just sort of I'm saying obviously if they didn't let me out for phone calls or leave us out there's only nine of us and we'd all have a ruck like you know about it like you know so he then came up I see me him and my son from the first marriage and we talked from the first marriage and they got stopped outside and got searched and a dog stopped or smelt but I made the dog sit down I could just make a dog sit down so because the dog sat down they said oh no you won't be able to go in like you smell Danny Mustang so he said I've got anything on me mate so he said well if you have a strip search this is to mark the sick one we'll let you go in so he had the strip search nothing on him they cancelled if it didn't tell me and for that Caroline and everyone I was got closed visits for nine months and they found nothing that was because I was having rouse of them and that's the same time when they started there keeping my heart tablets back and that's when I did I was looking back at that I was too righteous myself I still I still sort of screwed having pops about things that didn't matter like you know and once I started getting the message about meditation in there I stopped having those niggans for things I just used to sit and think it out like you know but I felt sorry for him because he felt guilty he said to me you're getting rid of it I said nothing Danny they found nothing what's the matter with you I feel bad so that it's that thing I know like you know it must be the toughest thing in there losing loved ones and you can't be there because I know friends who's been in lost and mum and dad the coppers won't let them out because they're too high risk and it fucking drives them insane some of them don't come back from that because they just become so anti authority start riots start some of them go suicidal do you know what I mean same as no he was going to smash up the place when they lost his son go fucking nuts I'm going to do every one of them or I'm going to start making changes because like we said earlier it's not fighting the system it's pointless because the only thing you're fighting is yourself you're losing loved ones you're fucking missing your freedom you're missing your misses and it's just because you're so built up with hate and rage you just need somebody to fight and sometimes these people just will give you the fight but they always fucking won because they're just restricting they can't lose can they I'm sort of I'm happy that I've come away from that life good on you and I know I have I don't I don't think it and I don't and I don't care who knows or anything you know I mean I just for me keeping someone out of prison a young kid for whatever I just sort of say please don't go in there because if you even get used to it it's the most horrible life you could ever imagine you know it's all and especially the likes of me everything is well my age well because I know I would never ever put anyone in it to save my skin so if I'm gonna go and do something and get cool I know I'm gonna die in there a lot of people that still go at it at an old age have probably been wrong in sort of most of their lives or they definitely not gonna go back now you know so they just probably think they say well I can I'll get a nice few quid they just figured a few quid you know for you to ever do anything at your age it would be fucking sheer insanity for me that's a suicide though that's just a suicide mission I'll count that as suicide because I know I wouldn't want to live so nobody could this one's like nobody could tempt me with anything at all that would give me a chance to go in there I wish it had happened years ago but see the stuff the coppers have done on you you still get paranoid that there's always a possibility do you still keep your wits about you you just don't fear any of that presence anymore I wouldn't go into gas where I fancy that they might be waiting I mean I think they could say I have to be talking here about them you know but there's nothing I can do about what they do if I were in my life thinking this is gonna happen and that's gonna happen you know there'll have to be a fit I'm hoping the ones who've done it to me and there's better ones in their place yeah the majority of them are dead yeah the majority would be but the last two two brothers they've died in the one one died on a grower he got a number 4 tonne of puff and he died in there and the other one just died the other week and there's a thing written out about him about how he when he got to the news of the world he got every cover that he knew obviously he said we've got jobs on the news of the world in the mirror and all that you know and yet when it was all going on the trial I asked my brief I said can you find out what he's doing Ross I said I think he's getting nicked on this news of the world I said there's something on it I said we've got to pull it out because he's mates with the one in charge of this case so the one in this case said he'd never met him he didn't know I'm in all that game and then turned out he did for anybody watching John it's maybe want to get involved in a life of crime because we watch the films you see the people that seems sexist, seems glamorous and everybody thinks it's a great life but for anybody that's watching it's what maybe get involved in it what advice would you have for them I'd advise you to I thought it was alright while I was doing that thing and something and I promise you it really is not stay as far away from it as you can and I'd implore you to not to go get yourself in there if you ever do and you go in there you'll see what I mean but I hope it never comes to that believe you me it's a horrible horrible life and you'll live a lonely life as you can see even when it gets to my age they still caught me in the end and they will get you by hook or by crook if it takes even a no jury trial they'll get you and they'll put you away like you know and for what what do you want another period of time a big car, a bigger house and then all of a sudden spending the rest of it in there and the worst thing in a lot is when you've got it all and you've got your money when they do Nick here because they will there's enough grasses around these days they'll take all your money up you anyway or if you've got a house that's going so if you've believe you me I wish I had never entered this life and that's it I'm not crying over spilled milk I'm just looking at I was a dope really to thought I had life sewn up thought I had everything and I had nothing how do you feel about telling your story today I feel relieved and I feel grateful and thanks anytime John like to say you know good people man and they vouch for you as well out here and that's a good thing that's all you can have as well sometimes it's respect from others and that can never be bought yeah it can no matter what you do in life people respect you and that's an amazing thing I think it's a powerful thing to have and let's say I spoke to a few people who know you very well and very well connected to you you've tried to do the right thing now that you're out but again would you like to finish up on anything John no just saying that like I've got some really good friends out here I'm trying to do little bits now for AP Foundation because that's I owe it to them because they're doing the right thing to try and stop people coming out going into prison and that's what I want that's what I don't want people to waste their lives John I wish you all the best in the future I look forward to the book if anything I can help with thanks very much