 We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to the next episode and following on from the last one where we just touched on a few things. This is The Therapy Show behind closed doors with Jackie Jones and Bob Cook and we're going to be talking about the rise of online therapy. Yes. The reason why I said it's touching on what we did last time, we were talking about the length of your therapy career being 36 years plus and you must have seen some huge changes as far as technology and being online and things. Of course I mean when I started training in 1984 you know the internet age computers that type of technology wasn't with us. I mean I think it was 1995 was it the first mobile phone. The early computers were going to be in the 90s and you know so I always came around way before that and you know I mean we're in a completely different world now and out of the technology has come the accessibility for online therapy and you know I think there's good and bad about that so I think there's advantages and positivity and I'll hold my hand up and say you know I was training very much in relational psychotherapy so I've always prefer talking to somebody in real time rather than on you know whatever platform people use now like Microsoft Teams or Zoom is the most popular I think and you have telephone telephone counseling and text counseling so the technology that is there so I prefer relational work I was trained in that and I come from a generation where online therapy wasn't around of course so I was trained in that. I wasn't trained in online therapy it's interesting you know if I had to come along and later on 2010 or something and training training now for example we have modules on online therapy I'd have been it would be very different I think and I come from a completely different era and yeah so but I do see great advantages now I don't think I don't think well a better way to look at this is I think modern psychotherapy has been changed dramatically by this technology and I have done before the pandemic for example I was thinking back 2015 when one of my clients moved or maybe before that 2014 moved to Scotland and in terms of the duty of care for example and things like that it would have been to pass on to another therapist but in the transitional time I talked online with her and it was a completely different experience for me and I think if the function of accessibility is a really big plus for online protection helping people you know move to another therapist I can think of many many reasons why online therapy is a really big plus I haven't really done that much of it because it's not a form of or mode I particularly like I have done some I've done some once some groups because with the pandemic everything moved online and therefore even though it stopped working clinically in one to one I did do some I was still doing some therapy intensive for the trainees and if and in fact with the latest COVID changes my next little group might also go back to on the scene and I work quite well I've got I work quite well on them but you know I found myself working much more cognitively because of the lack of a a three-dimensional you know lack of being there in person and so there's pluses and negatives yeah I I work in purely online and have done since the beginning of the pandemic for lots of reasons um self-isolating because I had a teenager that was in school and potentially catching it and passing it on to clients and all those sorts of things more recently I'm having some work done on the house and I just haven't got a space to do the therapy so there's there's lots of different reasons around it so I work via zoom but I can't get my head around telephone therapy and therapy via text so those are the one for me it's bad enough seeing somebody on a screen but at least I can attempt to read changes in body language or anything that I'm seeing as well as hearing whereas if it's via text or if it's a telephone conversation I think there's a lot of information that I'm not picking up as a therapist I don't feel I would be doing my job properly. So on zoom then that's the technology yeah okay what you're saying is um what's positive is as well is you can read people's body languages you have a you can see them visually yeah so you have a different sense however without that sense there like on the telephone or texting then it would be a different type of therapeutic exchange for me it's just taking another level off everything the more you go down in a room with somebody I think I'm quite perceptive of the general feeling that's going on in the room as well as what I can see and hear and everything so that's kind of like all my senses are getting connection yeah yeah I didn't understand that I mean zoom is visual as well as hearing and then a telephone conversation is just hearing it it's just taking away that contact to each level for me yeah I think that's completely I mean I said right at the beginning I'm very much a relational therapist and uh I really in an ideal world would only work face to face if you want to put that language um now zoom is I think better than texts and better than telephone casting but I was thinking while you were talking that from the therapist's point of view I'm hearing it from your point of view and I'm saying it from my point of view it's an interesting isn't it because another another sort of query popped into my head and that is what is therapeutic see when we talk if we go back way before the birth of psychotherapy with Freud uh you know I would say that the major form of therapy was religious healing and we could go back to we could go right the way back to Socrates uh the philosophical Greeks and we could go all the way back we could we could have a wonderful podcast about what is therapy you know inverted commas and what is therapeutic inverted commas so I'm talking about face to face because I was trained that way I think most more effective therapy happens that way because you've got more access to the different senses uh uh tactileness and what happens in the body and various other things so that's would be my ideal but it doesn't mean I don't think the text cancelling telephone cancelling zooms my all these different things doesn't doesn't how doesn't necessarily not have a therapeutic aspect to it no even though it might be limited yes and as I know for me I'm a stickler for confidentiality and ethics and all those sort of things and the further down the ladder you go taking away that contact to me is more open to things going wrong oh absolutely of course I completely agree on a text message I I don't know who it is that's on the end of the phone texting I could be texting yeah the partner of somebody who's abusing somebody or what I don't know no you're absolutely correct absolutely correct and you know if we're on that sort of conversational area then if we talk about protection if I do work therapeutic online which again I'm going to say you don't do much of it but if I did one of the things I would really think about is protection yeah it's a really good one because I'm probably going to do some training on for the some of my students at the Manchester Institute which will be or could be live demonstrations now if it goes on to zoom which I'm at the moment it isn't but it could easily do I'd have to think again a little bit because I have to be aware that when you're talking to somebody on the other end of a zoo they may be by themselves in their top in their attic and the top of their room and there's not the same sort of support there might be if you actually see them face to face because you can check up on things and make sure they don't rush out into the cold weather they can have a cup of coffee they can go to costors across the road they could or many other things yeah where you can check things out but if you're doing a demonstration or even you're doing live therapy with somebody on the zoom you don't really know what support and protection they've got yeah yeah or have access to and those are the things for me that I have a cutoff point if it's not face to face as in live set you know zoom is is as far down the road as I'm prepared to go with therapy yeah and that's just personal I don't have anything against anybody else that does it and I kind of agree with what you touched on earlier on that who says what is therapeutic yeah and again you see if you're if you're if you're trained in the United Kingdom to be a a psychotherapist uh accredited by a regulating body then they demand certain things of you and in the training and that I I now always provide some online psychotherapy training and protectionist thought of and all those sorts of things um I've traveled a lot by the way and I do before the pandemic I used to teach people to be therapists in Slovenia and Australia now in Slovenia where there's not so much geographical geographical accessibility then I think one of the real pluses of online therapies uh provided an accessibility that for therapy uh which might have not been there before yeah 100 yeah that is a really really really big plus in my opinion yeah people you're opening up the accessibility of healing and therapy to many many many many people who never had that accessibility yeah and that is pretty wondrous isn't it it is it is but again I don't know whether it's my mother coming out to me but he's like there's there's always a negative to it and that you know it it can be open to being abused you know if we're looking at we're looking at the rising online therapy but that encompasses an awful lot of of different things you know that somebody can go on a weekend training course and offer online unregulated therapy to people online you know it's it's an open forum when we're looking at online self-help courses where people buy a course and do it online you know that for some can be classed as therapy you are right I don't think the internet can be regulated so easily if you like or in the same way as face-to-face training so for example we're where I work and the institute which I founded is the training and accrediting organisation of the UK CP which is the major regulating body in the United Kingdom and they've recently done an audit of our training and you know really went through our thoroughly through our different practices and all the things you're just talking about and that happens every five years a bit like an off state yeah occasionally now you know in the online therapy world there's perhaps that's there's not that sort of you know like accountability of lots of these courses or there's not a there's not that same regulating function by a lot of these bodies because it's such a new phenomena yeah so you are am I you're talking about the unregulated process of a lot of the internet courses and a lot of the rise of online therapies who perhaps aren't regulated or accounted for as a lot of the conventional therapies and it's a shame because you know I totally agree with what you were saying about people in Slovenia it is a wonderful thing you know and it makes it accessible to much more people who otherwise wouldn't have it so it's like a fine you know it's on a knife edge it is and you know it's like all these things on the internet especially what we're talking about here that needs to be I believe a move to some regulation yeah don't know how that would happen particularly but I think that we aren't going to go backwards I think online therapy is only going to go bigger and therefore and again there's pluses and minuses about that but I think that needs to have moved to regulation just like I think there needs to be a move to governmental relation governmental regulation of psychotherapy and counseling per se in the United Kingdom which there isn't at the moment it's only internally regulated now with you are absolutely a thousand pound you know totally correct with all these courses on the internet and everything else you know a lot of them are a majority of them are not regulated or accounted for any way for for shape well yeah there was one that popped up on mine is it I think it was seven pounds for you know to to become a hypnotherapist or something random like that and it was like what yeah that's the problem though isn't it that is a problem that is a really problem area and what we're talking about here yeah the internet and online courses there is no regulation yeah if there is I don't know any well I think that's one of the things you know for anybody that's listening or whatever what what would be your recommendations for accessing online therapy going through you know the counselling directory going through word of mouth recommendations oh not answering an advert on t internet oh so is the question and what's my recommendation for people to go to online therapy okay yes I would you know it's a bit similar and different if you like to what I would say in face-to-face therapy I think it's really really important for the customer or this client if you want check out the credentials the qualifications of the person they're going to sign up with yeah how do they check that they say to them okay do you belong to a regulated body if so which one do you do now you know in this country that the UK CP is a major regulated body for psychotherapy and in counselling BACP so that's two major regulated bodies so if they say yes we've done we are members of one of those bodies and you know I spent four years trying to be a counsellor or spend five years trying to be a transactional analyst and here's my website and go and look at it and look at the content and if you want this is my supervisor's name or whatever you know I think there needs to be and I think it's the same face-to-face there needs to be some responsibility for the person who's actually going to use the services that they check out the people that they're working with I mean is you know would I go and buy a 30 000 pound carl from a you know a second hand dealer down the road or would I go to the proper Toyota garage I know where I would go to but I do know what to do first is check it all out yeah because the person down the road who's in the second hand it might be a Toyota you know expert or whatever it is but I check it all out and I think it's a response there has to be some responsibility for the customer to check these things out and if they don't check them out then they are open to goodness knows what and it's the same in the real world you check these things out now the other thing recommendation is one of the best best avenues that people have had user services effects they go on their website I was thinking you could go on my website bobcook.org and you can read all about me and all these things and you can check all these things out and then you could even phone the uk cp or the bc you know whoever you wanted up you can do all that lot and recommendation is also really really important I think yeah so if you haven't got recommendation check out with the person where they were trained what their qualifications are and all those things yeah don't just say oh you work with Angadu you're oh let's go ahead you know it's like unfortunately that happens but it's not a good thing but you know as the client you are handing over yourself to this other person yeah vulnerabilities trauma everything so it's really important that you invest some time and effort into researching and find a therapist that is going to meet your needs absolutely and as I say I do all the assessments of the Institute face to face people you know lots of recommendations because we've been around a long time XXX and there's some people still who've gone on the website and check us out and come through Google or whatever it is in the internet you need to check people out even more extensively I believe yeah yeah because there's fake things up there bob it's not all real it's a bit like the wild west because it's so unregulated but I do believe the person who's using the services needs to ask those questions yeah now you are quite right do you then believe them well I don't know you can go to the website and check that out you can you can at least do your part in that extensive research and I think if you're going to do therapy or counseling online you really do need to do that yeah my daughter 23 so she's brought up in social media she said to me dad I'm gonna well what you're talking about here and I pointed to a website I knew would which is highly recommended and I said go and look at all those you know those references come back to me and I can you know say a little bit about it but she did a homework on who they are what the references were what the qualifications were what they meant so she had the right questions to ask these people to begin with yeah now if you don't do all that lot you are I think opening yourself up to problems or could be and I think you know even when you were talking that I was thinking you know the unfortunate thing about this and you know that the potential dangers is that we're talking about some potentially really vulnerable people that might not be in the right frame you know frame of mind or state of mind to take up that work and research to find it out they might just and that's the same in the real world isn't it yeah yes yeah you're right yeah yeah I think the biggest plus I'm going to say again for online therapy with all the guidelines and things we could put in place and everything else is it brings to the masses you know the accessibility of counselling and therapy and that's a fantastic plus I completely agree with you about lack of regulation accountability in all those sorts of things we've just been talking about them but I don't think I think we're only going to go forward now in terms of online therapy and counselling online and I think I think I'm just repeating myself but I think the need for regulation has to come on the internet as well as in face-to-face in the real world yeah and I don't want to come across as a negative Nelly I completely agree you know it does open up therapy to the masses and it's made the world a very accessible place for people like you said earlier on about a client that moved you know I've had similar that clients have moved abroad and wanted to maintain that relationship and you know that was one of the first times that I did a Zoom before the pandemic it didn't it didn't sit comfortably with me at all at the beginning and that was my step into it if that makes sense also I'm an expert in certain areas so I'm an expert in multiple personnel disorder I'm an expert in dissociative identity disorder I'm an expert in certain areas so that means though I don't work clinically anymore but if I did um people from all around all over the country and all over the world yeah and they have access to me in a way they would never have in face-to-face because they can't travel from France, Spain, Australia, wherever it is and come and see me and they but but if I was working more clinically they could do yeah yeah and I think you know like you say I think it's only gonna increase over time I don't think we're gonna go backwards we're just gonna go forward yeah regular I think the big point is regulation as it is I believe in the real world yes yeah it parallels a bit and the other thing which I which hasn't been mentioned but I really like to mention it is there needs to be regulated accounted effective training yes so people are going to become online therapists they need to have I believe competent effective good training just as in the real world well face-to-face world yeah so you have done both both I you know I trained at the Institute for four years and loved it would not change any of it I've also done a hypnotherapy course I've done an LLP course I've done a coaching course I've done lots of other courses since then fantastic just only for my own interest you know TA will always be my foundation that's what I always fall back on but I can honestly hand on heart say I I've never got anywhere near as much as what I did from the Institute and I'm not just saying that because I'm talking to you but the the way it was set up the you know the two years of training to get the competencies to still be training while practicing and having that hand-holding safety bit you know the yeah well you know if you think of attachment theory and you think of experiential work and you think of you know that face-to-face experience that's very hard to replicate online yeah it's impossible well it's impossible yeah so so basically correct you have a different type of training online yeah I believe I believe like I said right at the beginnings of this podcast I believe that it's the best way to do it will be online therapy training will be a different or is a completely different type of training to face-to-face because they can't be replicated face-to-face because you're missing the attachment you're missing the bonding missing the experiential work all that stuff you have a different type of training online yeah I think that what you were saying then that you know the experiential I think that's that's the bit that you can't replicate well all you can do is send people to therapy so it's a completely different type of training and in fact yeah but having said all that what I'm just going to say now this will just sum it up for you I've had a huge call for months for me to do a methods and theories of transaction analysis online five day course five days if to go and you know where the people are going to come from they're going to come from different parts of the world they're going to come from parts of the United Kingdom and they can get access to access to me in a way they could never get and at the same time there will be things missing yeah because we can't meet we can't experiential work we can't so for me I think like I said my TA training at the Institute was my grounding yes good way to look at it I'm okay doing extra online stuff because I've got that there to just do a four-year degree level TA online I know I wouldn't have come out yeah very different animal yeah I know I replicate sort of talking about for customers or clients in the therapeutic world and I know I'm biased and at least I own my stance right at the beginning but I think a relational face-to-face encounter is a completely different animal to a face-to-face zoom encounter yeah that doesn't mean there's not usefulness it's different yeah and I've said what I'm biased on but I do think the real plus side is accessibility yeah and for something I would call educative therapy yes yeah which is more cognitive therapy yeah if you want to go that way um but for the real emotional relational work very difficult to do online it's different all together completely it's a different beast I completely agree but there is a use for it there is there is a need and there is a place for it I think protection is a really big thing I hope we've highlighted enough on this podcast because I I do worry worry or get concerns about therapists who don't think enough about the support isolation or where the client is when they go to these types of areas yeah of trauma for example yeah yeah and I think that's why when I first started doing it I would only do it with clients that I had seen face-to-face like the one that then moved away because we'd already got the relationship I kind of knew where I knew a background so I as a therapist felt safer oh yes then just somebody phoning me up that I've never met before or anything yeah another area I know we have to I could talk for many many moons on this subject but another area of course is motivation yeah so so for example you know for somebody come to Chulb's and say 10 miles away whatever it is and they come five o'clock they have to go to bed they have to go through the wind or whether the wind is or whether it's wet or whether it's done that many a time to the institute boss takes quite a lot of motivation yeah to get out of bed or to just go to the computer it doesn't take that much motivation no now I believe for people you know I believe motivation is a really big factor in cure actually yeah something really motivated so there was a lot in this I think I haven't done the research but I guess people probably if they were on online therapy we would be shorter probably it would be actually much more cognitive yeah it would be very different animal probably isn't for different animal yeah but I don't think I don't think it's going to go away I think this is I think this world's just going to increase more yeah and well done you for doing a five day training course with some people as well it's yeah yeah I you know like you say you're you're reaching people that would potentially not being able to have access to it interesting subject Jackie yes thank you so much so I can't remember what we said we were doing next time okay so I look forward to the anticipation of they were really interesting whatever they were Bob I thought these two were variant I thought this subject's a really interesting one and because I know that online therapy online counselling it's not going to go away it's going to go bigger and I've always been moved by the idea of accessibility to therapy and counselling as a big plus for online therapy so it's good to have the chance to talk about it yeah I always like the opportunity of talking to you about anything Bob oh that's very nice of you I'll see you on the next episode you will see me online on the next exercise very true speak soon yeah take care take care bye you've been listening to the therapy show behind closed doors podcast we hope you enjoyed the show don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review we'll be back next week with another episode