 Hi, this is Helena Hart and welcome to my interview with Brian Reeves on navigating the three stages of love from co-dependence to interdependence. Brian is just such an amazing coach and author. I was telling him before we started this interview that I've actually cried reading his articles, just tears streaming down my face, which is pretty unlike me reading something because his work is just so transformative and it just resonated so deeply with me personally and so many women I've spoken to. So I'm so excited and honored to be talking with you today. So welcome, Brian. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Helena. Helena, right? Helena. Yes, thank you guys. Thank you so much. It's an honor to be here. It seems like I've been making women cry for a very long time and and and and oh goodness and maybe we'll talk about why that has been and through this interview. But no, truly, I'm honored to speak with you. Thank you for reaching out and I'm excited about what we're going to talk about. I'm excited too. So I would love to just jump right in and I'm actually curious myself. What was it that made you want to be a coach and do this work that you're doing now? I actually didn't want to be a coach. I didn't, I didn't, what really is called to me for most of my life is is is you know waking up from our madness just just just I don't know. I was in the military. I was very shut down for a lot of my life. I was I was just I felt very disconnected and even that that joke that I just that's joke I just made about making women cry. What I'm really pointing at is I was so disconnected and shut down for so much of my life that I I both suffered and created so much suffering in in the world around me even with the best of intentions and so there was just but there's something beneath all of that that you know I don't know from from the time I was really young and I just knew I was destined to I just knew I didn't come here to sell Coca-Cola to sell sugar water to do bullshit. I knew I was here for something real and I'm sure a lot of people watching this can relate to that. Absolutely I definitely relate to that and I relate to feeling shut down a lot too. That was a huge problem I had personally and I know that a lot of women are at that place like feeling scared to be vulnerable and open up to someone especially when it comes to their love life and dating and relationship so thank you for sharing that and let's jump right into the topic. Can you tell me a little bit about what codependence is? I mean it's kind of like a buzzword that we all hear but I would love to hear like what does it mean from here? Yeah well codependence very simply means making the outside world responsible for your well-being making people your bank accounts circumstances just your parents whatever making the outside world responsible for your well-being that's codependence and the way that I usually outline this for folks or have people consider this is just imagine when you're a child you're a baby you're born into the world completely helpless if someone doesn't feed you and not just feed you but actually touch you hold you care for you give some kind of carrying you will die you'll literally die right for the first many years of your life that's codependence like that's we're literally codependent on other beings for to survive but what happens is we grow up you know we spend 10 15 20 years our nervous systems being attuned to that survival vibe like if I don't do things a certain way to either get attention or avoid abuse I'll die and then we become adults and we bring that same patterning that same nervous system patterning and also the beliefs that we believe into our adult relationships and that's why it feels like like if the partner I have if they don't love me or talk to me the right way or touch me the right way or or treat me the right way if they leave feels like I'm gonna die right oh yeah codependence yes I can definitely relate to that for sure in my past so would you say we're all sort of codependent then absolutely we all have a codependency on the world around us and and and I don't even want to illegitimize it I mean there is legitimacy we all do impact each other if my partner says an unkind word it hurts I feel it language matters but that's just stage one we're talking about codependence to interdependence most of us live fully in that stage one codependent way of being where if we're disrespected or or you know treated a certain way or not treated a certain way we just you know fall apart absolutely and just for everyone watching be sure to stay to the end of this interview because Brian's going to share his top tips to move from codependence to interdependence you can really connect with a man or with your partner and just bring them closer than ever not out of like a neediness but out of like the wholeness of who you are I hope I said that right good enough closing up absolutely okay really and it really is about shifting neediness to desire and and and that's really from the first stage we're very needy like like a baby we're needy I need you I need everything I need if I don't get and so much of what we think we need we don't actually need we really want but we relate to it as such it's a need and if I don't get it I'm going to die or I'm going to be miserable or life's going to suck or whatever a million things and that just keeps us stuck in that insanity and I'm sure you know I've certainly experienced the more I need something and demanded of someone the less they want to give it to me absolutely yes I'm like laughing over here because I have been there myself so many times I know so many women watching can relate to that so what would you say what's like the first step for a woman to get out of that place of neediness or like you said I need this man to love me in this way or I'm going to feel abandoned or something like that what's the first step well what happens at the end of stage one codependence what what gets people out of codependence is the is the the recognition that oh my god this shit doesn't work demanding he do what I want demanding life be a certain way it just doesn't fucking work or or changing myself to please someone because if I change myself then they'll then they'll love me or give me or just leave me alone or you know back doesn't work in fact that was my experience long before I even had any conceptual knowledge of these stages I was in a really challenging relationship where I changed myself I and I didn't change myself but it was like you know we slammed back and forth between caring so much about what my partner thinks about me and what they do to then not carrying it all because it doesn't fucking work anyway you know and and at the end of stage two it's kind of like I am not responsible for your happiness you're not responsible for mine but I'm not responsible for yours it's kind of like you know it's like it's like we plant that flag in the ground and say I'm going to be responsible for my own well-being that's the beginning of stage two the independence stage I love that I love everything you're saying so what's the next step so you realize it doesn't work looking to someone else to make you feel loved or to give you what you think you need from them and then you move out of that what's the next step in this process so so stage two is characterized by by self love self self work personal growth work right which is all about now see we spend all of stage one trying to get someone else to meet our needs right and again it maybe it works for a minute but then it doesn't it doesn't last long it's unsustainable and endlessly frustrating and even even there are the ways so one of my one of the specialties one of the the foundations of my work is masculine and feminine dynamics because in stage one a more masculine person their needs are different than a stage one more feminine person so even so we're both trying to get different needs met and the crazy thing is we think that well if I just give you what my needs are like a more masculine man let's say he'll think look if I just let my woman kind of be free because that's what I want this should work right and it doesn't and and she'll think well if I just give him lots of connecting behavior I'll do lots of things that would be connecting kind of relationship you know I'll show up and we're going to do an amazing relationship and then it doesn't fucking work he's not happy it's like what the hell so stage one that insanity of thinking you know I can manipulate or control another person to get what I want well in stage two it's all about wait I'm going to take care of of numero uno right here I'm going to I'm going to meet my needs so self love there's a big self love movement right now even a few years ago I don't know if any more so much but a few years ago there was this whole thing about mostly women were marrying themselves do you hear about that I think so yeah yeah they were they were having weddings with with just one person on top of the cake you know inviting their friends like it's the ultimate proclamation of independence I don't need a man that's stage two so anything that is is all is really it's state she was all about taking care of yourself radically radical self love right taking yourself phone dates traveling by yourself doing again you're going to to you know men will go to yoga workshops they'll go learn how to meditate you know women might start a business in kind of that stage two mentality I don't want to depend on a man I don't want to have to depend on anyone anyway I can do it myself right so I'll start my own business right so so a lot of men tend to do more of the emotional inner work and a lot of women may tend to do more of the external kick ass work in stage two interesting wow I've actually never heard it put that way before so let's do it back up just a little bit yeah about the masculine and feminine dynamics just because I love everything you have to say about that yeah sounds like what you were saying was the masculine energy partner had this need for freedom and space and the feminine energy wants to connect and be closer do I have that right absolutely yeah that the masculine value is freedom and the feminine value is connection and what happens when those two come together in relationship which is what we're drawn I mean masculine and feminine intimacy that's what whether same sex or or heterosexual that's what that's why we do intimacy to exchange those juicy energies but they're operating from two fundamentally different values and so what I often what you'll often see is the more feminine partner is always saying let's connect come closer come closer give me more I want more of your feel me more I want more love more flow between us and the more masculine partners like whoa you know let's let's stay free I need to maintain some freedom here I need my freedom and and see connection you look I use my hands as example like my hands are free one you know they're independent and free when you connect them they're bonded and so in stage one co-dependence what happens is you know you've got the the feminine hand saying connect with me connect with me I want to connect you're not connecting with me why are you making me miserable and and and then you've got the the masculine hand saying I want to be free stop fucking connecting with me so much you know Jesus give me I need space right and you and it just descends into chaos yeah I thought you were like there's like this in my life before I figured out what I was doing that was like pushing that away so what would you say to a woman who wants to connect and is feeling frustrated with what can she do specifically when she wants to connect with the man and he's pulling away he needs his space well you got to give him this space first but again this is where these three stages are really really important and relevant because um what so I've been coaching couples now for about four years and what I frequently see is that is that it's and I'm I'm a frame this in heterosexual terms just because it's easier but this happens in same-sex relationships also but what you find is is the more feminine partner who's usually but not always the woman she's wanting to really kind of take the relationship to that interdependent place like connected and blissed out is like her her yearning and the more masculine partner he's more kind of like well let's just you know let's maintain some freedom and so what what a what a what a woman who's kind of feeling that like uh he's not connecting he's not getting getting he's not giving me what I want the way that I often hear it is how can I get my man to show up how can I get a man to want to grow how can I get him it you can't get a man to do anything and if you can get him to do something then you won't respect him and he won't respect himself right so that's number one you can't get him to do anything that he doesn't authentically want to do not if you want to actually keep loving him or liking him or respecting him yes yes I always say you can't make a man do something that he doesn't want to do not not in any sort of like permanent lasting way that's going to really feel good and make you feel secure and loved because it's coming from him can you like inspire a man to want to connect more anything like that you can but not from your first stage neediness and this is where doing your own personal work your own learning how to second stage connect with yourself what's nurturing for you a lot of times when I'm when I'm supporting people navigating out of stage one that codependent I need I need you know I needed to connect I need how do I get him to all of that one of the practices we'll do is the is the self-love diet right we're just radically every day doing the things that make you light up that aren't dependent on him showing up I love that and what does that do in the relationship or what does it do for that man when you start yeah and doing those things for yourself so well a number things so one of the first things it does though is it just naturally starts filling you up with with beautiful feminine energy because you're just you're filling your life with what feels good well naturally when you do what feels deeply good and deeply nourishing you come alive I mean you're the light comes back into your eyes right your body the the actual way you hold your body shifts and changes so what happens is as you're now really filling yourself up with love self-love he's going to notice he's going to start to notice because he's naturally drawn his masculine core and again this doesn't have to be a man this could go the other way but his more masculine core the reason he chose you to begin with is because of the gift of of energy that you are right he in all likelihood he didn't choose you because you had a lot of money or you had you know said he chose you because of the gift of your of your femininity right and what happens in long-term relationships especially when that energy gets shut down because we've all been taught to to to really oppress that feminine being in ourselves and therefore in others right all the emotions and the flavor and the and all of that we've been taught whoa that's too much calm it down right so in relationship when that happens when when you know and we live in a masculine reward world so in a long it doesn't doesn't take long but over time when that feminine energy the more it gets shut down the more he is going to look elsewhere for feminine energy even if it's just porn right porn is just a non-stop supply of easy feminine energy that's why a lot of men go there because you watching porn there's no one you know the there's no one complaining that you're doing it wrong a porn video you know you're not being burdened like you're free you feel very free as a man he feels very free watching porn well I wanted to talk about something you said with a woman being too much because I know I have yet to speak with a woman who you know hasn't heard a man say that you're just too much you hear that I know you coach a lot of couples do you hear that too and what can women do to like what would you tell a woman who's yeah you're not from a man well absolutely look this is one of the one of the one of the the iron the ironic comedies of of of being human is that the feminine nature she's always wanting more more more more more and the masculine nature is always wanting less less less less less right um it just take you know conversation a feminine person in conversation they can just talk and talk and talk and talk a feminine or a masculine person in conversation is you know what's the point where's this going what can when are we going to get to the end right so um what I'm what I'm pointing at here is feminine energy always occurs as something of of a of a I'll just use this word something of an annoyance to masculine energy it happens to me I mean I'm very aware of all of this and yet I can still see sometimes when I'm really overwhelmed in the presence of a lot of feminine energy so what what women can learn though is to just is to recognize that that's present that may be present it's not personal it's not at all personal what what men are responding to and again I'm framing it heterosexually but by no means is this just a man woman thing but what what men are dealing with is like we've been trained to keep our our feminine our emotional expression in this really narrow range and then here you show up with this huge range I remember one of my a woman I worked at the few maybe a couple months ago was telling me how when she was a child her father her father went when her and her sister were at the dinner table and they start laughing giggling uncontrollably it would infuriate him all they're doing is laughing he would send them to their rooms for laughing at the table right so it's not like just just the just the upset that gets I know I'm not telling you anything you don't know but this is it's like it's not just the negative emotions that that that are asked you know hey quiet down it's also as surely you know it's the big positive the joy and the laughter all of that also the masculine around you can see whoa shut up right right right so on one hand it's like it can be too much because like you said men have this narrow range and then we show up with this bigger range of emotion and then but on the other hand I would you say that feminine energy is like what men crave so how totally yeah what's the distinction there so so the the the the opportunity the challenge and this is how we're both really pulling each other through these three stages to interdependence because interdependence is our is our greatest liberation it's where it's where in in that freedom we also feel connected to everything it's the ultimate freedom and the ultimate connection right and we're pulling each other right 20 years ago I realized you know I was just a teenager and I realized wow we're all we're all helping each other grow more functional through our dysfunctions like we're teaching each other through our insanity we're helping each other grow and that's exactly what that means so you know a man to really feel alive we can increase our capacity now again nobody teaches us this so we just kind of walk around thinking hey you know get inside of my capacity woman Jesus I can't deal with you out out there but the reality is his his yearning is his his mastery as a human being is learning how to open his emotional capacity open his heart even when things don't go the way he wants them to so even in my own practice is when I feel that overwhelm is to feel it just be in the overwhelm not make it about my partner not reject her not you know not say anything that might make her feel bad or shut down and I'll even tell her hey I want you to feel everything I want you to I don't not want you to shut down and like but it doesn't mean that I can really meet her in that big place right but my practice is to just be in my discomfort and likewise her practice is to be her and know that any recoil or any type of sort of that I may have it's not about her got it god I love every this is such a valuable information just amazing so I would I doubt you would ever suggest to a woman to like shrink herself down to fit into like a man's capacity to deal with her right hell no hell no in fact that is the that is that is not the world needs the opposite right now right the world needs the opposite in fact you know the movie Wonder Woman was so did you see the movie I did it no not yet oh my god woman you got to see that movie it was there's so much in that movie that is is is about the feminine really being bigger than than than what men can hold and yet commanding their their their allegiance their service to her and they don't want to even the good guys don't want to follow her lead but she's so grounded connected to what's happening in the moment to the emotion and the suffering that these men have no choice and that's really in even an intimate relationship you know as a woman really develops her capacity to fully feel what she's feeling and offer that to the relationship notice I said offer it offer it offer her emotions her feelings her truth but in a way that doesn't make him wrong for it absolutely okay I think that's the distinction right there I love that word offering her her presence and her feminine energy without overwhelming him or or needing something from him constantly specific like tips on how a woman can do that because that is just so such an incredible yeah that I love it well I do I do so and that's and that's really built on a stage two independence practice you've got to be able to own your stuff right you've got to be able to feel what you feel and own it that this is mine it's not you know some people think their bank account is responsible for their happiness it's just not if you've had enough money you eventually realize it ain't about the money right it's the same thing in relationship it's your partner is not responsible for your well-being so in stage three what you can learn to do and I call them their feminine practices they're a masculine practice but these are third stage practices and one of the things that that you can do and even my partner practice with this a lot so for example when she's having a big emotional experience when she's upset or she's just going through something one of the things that she'll language for me is you haven't done anything wrong even if I've done something that was hurtful acknowledging that I haven't done anything wrong is so helpful for my brain my masculine identify brain because you know to the masculine we are good if we do good and I guarantee you there just aren't there are very few men who who intentionally want to fuck up your life they're just aren't that they're just they're very few now there are there are droves and you know of unskillful unaware men even insensitive but that's that's you know locked in stage one we're not sensitive to each other in the same way that a woman is not sensitive to her man's fear of being wrong or doing wrong she just said oh it's your ego your stubborn you know no he's just he's in a freedom value and and his identity is sourced by what he does and so the more that as a third stage practice when you can just tell him hey you didn't do anything wrong and but when you when you did that thing oh my I felt terrible it really felt bad you didn't do anything wrong but I felt like shit when that happened like I got nauseous I felt terrible right so it's like starting with you didn't do anything wrong wrong now and this is a bigger conversation and I and I just released a program about boundaries an online program on boundaries because stage two is all about creating boundaries boundaries boundaries boundaries you want to get out of codependence have healthy clearly communicated and and honored boundaries I love that okay let's definitely talk about boundaries a little bit first I just want to make sure I have this right because I love what you said yeah so um what I sort of heard you say was like men can handle our emotions they can handle their feelings you just don't like it when we say it's your fault right or or kind of holding you responsible or well well of course not yeah I mean again that's why it's really important to use these three stages because to be clear most men don't like the emotions I didn't say we like the emotions it's a it's a matter of whether we welcome them or not got it that's the distinction because I can feel in my own body when I'm overwhelmed I don't like anything that's happening outside of where I'm where my limits who does but the third stage practice in the first stage I just reject it if it's outside of what I can handle I reject it and pretty much every woman is outside of you know what I can handle and that's the case for every guy right so but I'm aware of it so my practice is to not reject it but rather embrace it and which in the embracing of it I'm also now increasing my own capacity to just be alive and to feel everything that there is to be felt and to keep my heart open I mean really in the end it's about it's about allowing love to be present perfect I love love how you said that okay let's talk about boundaries obviously we're important in relationships I would just love to hear you speak generally I would love to hear anything you have to say about boundaries yeah so um there's so many misconceptions about boundaries a lot of people will think that boundaries are just selfish like I don't like you know if I really ask for what I want um isn't that selfish of me doesn't love mean you should kind of you know like have no boundaries and you know boundaries just walls and and they are I mean a boundary is a wall but I frame it like this it's the difference between requests and requirements requests and requirements requests are just things that I would like to experience but if they don't happen I'm not going to leave the relationship a requirement is a non-negotiable like if this isn't in place I'm not staying now here is where people really screw this up they present requirements as requests or requests as requirements I love how you said that can you give me some examples because that is definitely so for example um I see this a lot like um in in in a relationship where let's say let's say a man does not uh have maybe he's maybe he's really flirtatious with other women or he's affectionate in a way with other women that are not his partner in a way that he justifies and yet she feels very violating and they can stay in that place for a long time where she'll kind of say she doesn't want him to do that but yet she tolerates it and he'll whatever that maybe it's just female friends and maybe he has no maybe maybe there's not really anything going on there but still the behavior is really uncomfortable and he just wants his freedom to be how he was being right and especially like with social media it's like just commenting on another person's photo I mean he could say something that might be a little bit flirtatious or or and she may see that and it's very it's hurtful but she doesn't know how to communicate it because she doesn't want to be that girl right and yet she ends up being that girl even more because she's now resenting him and he doesn't he doesn't think there's anything wrong with what he did etc etc well that's a classic example of where almost certainly a requirement is being presented as a request I see that a lot in clients oh my gosh so I'm sure you do too what would you have a woman do then to turn that around well you've got to be honest with yourself first what is your requirement is it a requirement that in other words where's the boundary what's okay for you and what isn't and you know a lot of times these are really gray areas because what is flirting to one person is just you know being playful and funny to another right so a willingness to dance with this also is really important but she's got to first just be really clear I don't want my partner and sometimes especially when there's when there's these kind of scenarios where there's a real issue at hands like there's something that really needs to be addressed the more clear and specific you can be the better so in other words maybe she says okay so I don't want my partner complimenting pretty other pretty women right now just right now because it just it doesn't feel safe because I don't trust right one of the things that's important to know about boundaries is they don't have to be forever they can just be for right now it's like it's like putting on a bandage you know a bandage is a boundary that when there's a wound you need a bandage that the wound can heal if you try to heal a wound without a bandage it's just going to get infected but you also don't wear the bandage for 20 years you know you take it off after a few weeks when it's when it's healed it's the same with boundaries in relationship there may be boundaries that you need in place that makes kind of seem ridiculous but right now they serve for the healing of the wound right and that's what's really important and and when you can have that conversation because see the the the the the masculine partner he's afraid that this boundary is going to last forever and i'm not going to be free that's what he's feeling i'm not going to be free and i don't want to be i don't want to be in prison right yeah absolutely i i've never heard it put that way before that's totally brilliant what specifically could she say i love that example because i know it happens all the time so yeah what can what could a woman say so she she can acknowledge look you're not doing anything wrong i really what she can do and this is again a second stage practice see in stage one there's only i just me only i exist you're not you don't even exist except for how you affect me stage two there's i and you so in other words i can see my pain and all my stuff and my need and everything but i can also see yours so she can tell him look you're not doing anything wrong i know you have i know you have a good intentions and here's the thing if you don't believe that then what the hell are you doing with this guy exactly so this is presupposing that you that you you do see that he has good intentions that he's not really doing anything nefarious or you know completely out of alignment so assuming that and that's and this is where it happens all the time so assuming that you that you see that and believe it well um acknowledge it acknowledge it right you're acknowledging him you're validating his experience even if it's not yours just acknowledging it and then um claiming your boundary saying you know i i get that you're not doing anything wrong but i have this sensitivity i have this wound this fear this insecurity i know it's not your fault i've had it for a long time before i ever met you even you know what something happened as a child or you don't you don't have to say all those things but the point is acknowledging that he's not the one doing this to you even though his behavior may be triggering it right and and and then simply you know this is what i need right now just feel safe in this relationship i really want this to work i honor you i honor your freedom but for right now just for now this is a requirement for me this is something i would really like to practice with you um and i know it's not going to be comfortable for you and and i don't hopefully this won't be for very long but just for right now while i'm learning to to trust again and it has nothing to do with you see notice she's like in a way she's absolving him of responsibility while simultaneously claiming her her her right to be cared for in the way that she wants to be cared for does that make sense yes that was just like masterful i love that was perfect and i can see how women could apply that to really any situation when it comes to requests versus requirements absolutely yeah and i know this is really tricky and in that that program i actually i created scripts like this language because it's so it's challenging to walk that line to both honor someone and claim what you want for yourself you know because i work with another another couple where two really wonderful beautiful healthy independent people and neither one of them want to be that person to the other person um you know the in the words of the of the wife she's like i don't want to be that you know nagging psycho bitch wife those are her words i'm on and i get it and though they're in chaos because they're she's not honoring a boundary that's really important for her absolutely yes yes oh i've just seen that happen over and over and over and so many different women especially just kind of like we said before kind of wanting to shrink yourself down so you don't seem like high maintenance or like too much so i love that i can see how that be really attractive to a guy too to have that standard definitely and men we do it we do it as well i mean this this is you know i created this program because i need to learn it myself you know boundaries and and it's very easy for us men to also kind of let ourselves be violated in all these other ways you know i'm 43 now and i've i've been i've been abused by women in countless ways but i've allowed it because i didn't stand for my own boundaries you know one of one of my really important boundaries is especially um you know in an intimate relationship is don't assume you know what i'm thinking don't do that that doesn't that's that feels violating to me when you just come in and just assume you know what's happening for me because i it's like it's just i don't feel safe when i'm just when i'm just have that place on me and men we've experienced that so many times in our relationships yeah i've heard that from a lot of men and it can feel very violating yeah absolutely absolutely wow thank you for sharing all of that that was just really really valuable and helpful for everyone i know this is going to be huge so let's talk about step three or the third stage three yeah stage three yeah so i love like stage three is it's such a juicy i mean this is where the magic happens and and it's built on stage one and stage two and and by the way you can go through all three of these stages in 10 minutes oh really it's not like it isn't like and i could i could outline how that happens it's not like you know when you're 20s you're in stage one and then at 32 years old you graduate to stage two and you live there and maybe in the 40s no you can go through all through all three of these in and in minutes most people just stay in stage one their entire life but when you've expanded and done your inner growth work and you've you've you know you you have capacity to be with lots of situations and you and you you've done mindfulness work so you can see your own insanity like you can see how crazy you are which we all are you know it's like you start to wake up and you like the world looks different and and now you're more concerned with giving your gift than just getting shit for yourself right that's the third stage the third stage is all about really giving the best of you even if you don't get back what you think you should get back for it right so um the third stage is is really again built on the the in the second stage we're connecting with ourselves finding our true selves so that in the third stage we can offer it whatever that is right and and the magic of intimacy in the third stage is is two people who come together just just full and offering the best of themselves to each other and you know that stage one stuff will still come up as I think I may have said this earlier you know sometimes my partner might say something to me that that feels insensitive I actually do it all the time sir not through any bad intentions just you know I can never know what's going to happen you know we're always running into each other's stuff and she'll or I'll have a moment of like ah that hurt ah you know my my old wound an old wound will poke up that's my stage one like ah you know mommy didn't love me in the same way that you're not loving me right now you don't feel that and then I can realize oh okay that's my shit and then I can say well this is her experience and she said that because of this or she's just maybe she's upset and she's in pain so right that second stage and then in the third stage it's like I can just okay I can just love both of us through it right I can love her I can love me it's like now we're really creating partnership in the third stage because it's like I can offer my love I can love her no matter how she shows up if she's angry upset if she's saying this saying that if she's like I can just be present and just love her no matter what right I mean that's the that's the ultimate third stage and same same same you know with a woman and and in her partner even if he's not showing up the way she wants him to she can still love him and embrace him and and even you know what I love about the third stage too is it's it's not about doing what the other person wants it's giving the gifts that the other person needs got it oh I love how you said that that is great so how can we do that and and I'd love to talk about your specific tools like your maybe top three or so tips for creating that interdependence and moving into it so you can really connect with a man or your partner and just bring them closer without without that needy desperate vibe that we can all experience when we're in stage one yeah well I've sprinkled a few tips throughout so far um but one of my favorite practices kind of stage three practices is um no and it's different again they're masculine practices and they're feminine practices and they're different so you know the feminine practice is is being able to tell all the just tell the truth of what you're feeling really and not necessarily with words but what's happening in your body and feeling it expressing it it's like it's like making love I mean when when you're making love to a man you need to tell the truth about does it feel good and if it feels good he needs to see it and if it doesn't feel good don't fake it he needs to see that too so that he can do something different absolutely yeah so it's not just the word I mean I know the words are important but it's like this vibe that a man is picking up on right totally and now a lot of men will need the words because they're not that sensitive to the vibe we're pretty we're pretty not sensitive if you haven't noticed so the words are helpful but but doing so in a way that again does not make us wrong that's the third stage practice tell the truth but don't make us wrong for it don't make it our fault because it's not anyway you're choosing this if you're in conversation with me you're choosing it even if you're married to me I mean even if you you're staying married it's by your choice we don't live in a country or a time there are I know there are places out there that that's still a thing but most of you watching this video like you're you have choice even if you don't think you do you do you absolutely have choice acknowledge that you're choosing this so it's not his fault if you're miserable own that right but then be honest about your misery be honest about what's happening for you because if you're not he is no he has no chance but if you make it his fault he also has no chance right so that I mean that would be my top tip for for interdependent being and that goes both ways I mean even as even the masculine is as I said like when I'm feeling overwhelmed when it's like well there's a lot of energy coming at me and I can't quite you know be with all of it my practice is to breathe and just feel my discomfort and and I will language I will I literally will say these words to my partner I'll tell her babe I want you to feel everything I don't want you to shut down I don't want you I want you alive and and you know it's funny we have a we have a puppy now me and my lady and and they're both of them are like my puppies because they have so much energy all the time and it's like I'm like I love watching her in the puppy play because like is it kind of like oh because I can't go I just don't have that emotional flexibility that she has right but I don't want her to shut down not at all but I can feel how sometimes my reaction may feel like rejection to her and I know that that's devastating for her to feel so I will tell her and this is my third stage practice again I'll just call it out I'm feeling this I'm feeling yep I'm a little overwhelmed but it's okay I you know I love that you're full of life I mean I think I told her that last night I love that you're full of life I wouldn't want you any other way but that doesn't mean I can always handle it right but you know the third stage it's not a it's not a destination where we just land and then we're there forever it's a practice interdependence relationship is a practice you know even boundaries we're constantly accidentally stepping over boundaries it's you know in relationships it's it's it's not about getting it right it's about learning how to make repairs when we when when offense happens got it I love that I this has just been so amazing would you is there anything else you'd like to share that we didn't cover or would you want to like recap the three steps or three stages oh my goodness yeah well let's let's just recap the three stages so the first stage is codependence which is um you know it's all about me what am I getting what am I getting out of this and the other extreme of that is I don't deserve anything out of this right that's all codependence even even like the you know the hero there's in the hero whether you're a hero or a zero that's codependence you know you're manipulating you're not telling the truth you're controlling whether overtly or passively right that's stage one and it's all about me it's it's it's funny people will say in stage one well I don't want to be selfish well you're fucking super selfish because you're not being honest right because you're afraid of losing something whether whatever that may be that's really selfish right with it with it in the small with the small s selfish small s self that's stage one stage two is independence there's an I and a you there's two of us I take care of me you take care of you the the motto of stage two is I don't need you and I don't want you to need me either right that's stage two and that's an issue that we've all got to go through that stage and then stage three and I didn't say this before the consciousness of stage three is we and that's where all relationships that's the most challenging thing for for a lot of people to to break through in relationships is from the I and you consciousness to we where we're making decisions not just to serve you know my little self or your little self but the relationship where we're surrendered to something bigger than both of us and that's I mean that's magic but it ain't easy and it also it ain't clean you know I mean it's messy in that place too like relationships are messy you know I tell people you know love is messy stop trying to not get it all over you I mean that's just it's messy and we play with them and in stage three we play with the mess and stage one and two we're trying to clean it up we're trying to get rid of the mess stage three we embrace the mess and then we really have fun oh I love how you said that that is so true I'm like laughing over here throughout this whole thing is I've just found this to be so true in my own life and just countless women that I've worked with so thank you so much this was really really amazing and where can people find out more about you or do you have any like free gifts that you want to offer I do so just my website Brian Reeves.com Brian with a why Reeves.com and yeah I think you're going to put a link right to my free gifts yes under the video so there's actually yeah there's a bunch there's a few of them there there's more than one but I have an audio program called love sex relationship magic in addition to the boundaries program and love sex relationship magic is we really dive into these three stages and one of my free gifts is a module from love sex relationship magic where you get to take a relationship inventory you get to it's a it's one of my favorites because you really get a lot of self-awareness around how you've been showing up in relationship your motivations you know basically why things have been looking the way they have so that that's the free gift at the link that you're going to share and there's a few others there actually also but Brian Reeves.com one stop shopping that's the place to go blogs programs videos oh my gosh for everyone listening go read Brian's blog and all his articles they're amazing they're really amazing so thank you so much for sharing your time with us today I know it was so helpful for everyone and this was just amazing thank you thank you Helena my pleasure