 Maybe we should just give each of the centres a minute or two just to respond to John's hands and then we'll take questions from the floor. May I have one, please? It's on, yeah. Thank you, John, and I think you had a very challenging task of trying to connect three, as you said, very different presentations. And I think you did extremely well trying to pull out some of the points that I should have emphasised more perhaps as well. So just to... I agree that the characteristics of the firm owners or the characteristics of the firms in general is something that I didn't bring out due to time constraints. And I think indeed there's something there in terms of how labour relations play out or in this case unionisation. And as you hinted at, it is indeed the case that female-owned firms are more likely to have workers that are unionised. As we also know from the literature that female-owned firms tend to be more generous in terms of provisions of social security and so on. So there is a... And it's in the paper actually, but I didn't sort of highlight that bit. So also in terms of the kinds of companies, we see that limited liability companies also this... In the survey we have a bundle of collectives, sort of enterprises, and they are also positively correlated with union membership. Of course they don't have enterprises. I didn't talk so much about them because they're not actually part of the sample, but their union membership is very high, but that is changing a lot with what's going on in Vietnam. So indeed I think it's important for the analysis to actually go more into depth to see what are the correlations within the firm because they vary a lot and how they are set up. So that was my short answer to that. I wanted to pick up on one point that you were talking about is the link to Nina's paper and this on labour markets and regulations. I think there are many aspects to this. One of the things that South Africa is a high wage economy and in a way it will be for a while because of very structural features, very high dependency ratio given the very high unemployment means that the reservation wages of workers are relatively high as well. Secondly, their location is generally given South Africa's history of development and where people were located. Transport costs and access to the workplaces tend to be very high as well. These impose quite high impediments to lowering wages. But your point about the extent to which then labour legislation compounds some of those factors I think is a very interesting one and an important one and the number of dimensions. So South Africa as we know it has a collective bargaining system but it also has wage extensions so very different from Vietnam whereas the wage agreed by the unions in the collective bargaining process is extended to non-participants that are not participating in the bargaining. And the one argument is if we look at these bargaining councils who do they comprise of? They comprise of relatively large capital-intensive efficient firms. And if you look at one of the arguments that these firms make about not extending the wage agreements, one of the key arguments they make is that those firms if they don't apply the wages, they're out-competed. So to some extent it seems that those bargaining councils become a form of to exclude more efficient or rather exclude smaller lower-wage industries or firms from entering into the particular market. So there's an interest and that's an argument that has been made Nicolae and Atrus and so on for example argued. And that in a way I think talks to a big issue about why we don't see firms and manufacturing firms entering into manufacturing because to some extent the institutional, the system is biased against them. They can't enter on the basis of low wages and small size. So they don't enter. I think compounding that, linking that is also it's not only the labour market and maybe just the, we also just look at the market structure and maybe this is an outcome related to this story as well is what we, from the firm data itself it seems that South African industries are very concentrated in manufacturing as well as we have high levels of concentration. So suggests that there are also barriers from the market structure from the output side there are some barriers to entry of smaller firms as well. So on top of that I'm going to add in the third capacity constraint is we have a big government. So we have a big unions, we've got big firms. Then we've got big government and big government controls, fixed line telecommunication, rail transportation, ports and airline. So they control some of the key non-traded input costs that are critical to make South African exporters competitive. And so when we look at some of the data what we see is the structure of pricing for example on transports are that the price for bulk goods tends to be low the price for manufactured goods is high or containers. Same with ports, the price of containers is three times the world average the price of port charges for bulk goods tends to be on average competitive with the international market. So to some extent actually big government itself is adding to some of these non-traded input costs in addition just to the non-traded labor costs as well. Thanks. Thank you. Jerusalem didn't have a comment to John but I have a question for Jerusalem before I open the floor because I did some work myself on the barriers to access to credit divided by gender. And basically we found a very very surprising result that existing firms in Africa we cannot find discrimination against women in terms of access to credit. We cannot find discrimination against women in terms of access to management consulting and we also found other issues where we cannot find significant differences between male and female owned firms. So my question is those women that are able to break the glass ceiling to actually become enterprise owners are maybe not the problem. So a lot of the slides you showed were existing firms I'm more concerned about women being able to become entrepreneurs to actually being able to open the business because the women that are able to open the business today they are actually very very strong maybe even more productive than some of the males and more skilled because otherwise they wouldn't be able to break the glass ceiling. So my question is the figures you had are they relevant for the discussion about gender biases? I actually had one slide on access to credit which is showing that women seem to have higher access to credit while at the same time they report that they have a binding constraint on getting credit. But you would have to give me on some context of which African country that you have studied in terms of breaking into the glass ceiling. Basically my thinking on this support for women entrepreneurs is to look at the exit of women be it from entrepreneurship or productive labour market and think that what can we invest on to avoid women's exit from the formal setting labour market or business entry. So those who have made it in terms of breaking the glass ceiling maybe they do have some characteristic to excel in this environment regardless of not discrimination but some differential difficulty of getting access to credit or access to management consulting that you mentioned but I would have to try really harder that your result on no differential access to many of the key business inputs in Africa. It seems that many people are flagging against that. But I really want to engage also the audience in terms of how we can avoid women's exit from this labour market or entrepreneurship what are the institutions or what should be in place on the ground to avoid exit or also to encourage entry of a lot more women entrepreneurs. Thank you very much to all the presenters. My name is Paddy Carter. I'm from the British Development Finance Institutions CDC and we are hugely interested in anything which is both good for welfare and good for the financial performance firms because we want to send our ENS teams into our investees and persuade them to adopt these practices. So anything that this is a bit of a sales pitch anybody that's got any research or ideas about evidence around decent work making your firm more of a friendly environment for women and how that affects financial performance we're trivially interested in that. So in exchange for that sales pitch I'm going to trade one simple question which is to Nina which is do you have data on firm profits in your data set and could you see whether those higher wages are translated to lower profits? George. George, University of Ghana. On Jerusalem's question about entry or why there are barriers to women entry. I mean I did some work for Danida in northern Ghana where there are the witches camp and women that excel and become rich tend to be considered as witches or if someone died mysteriously then you were considered a witch so you were moved. So societal norms and family structure or family based issues and that's one of the things I was going to ask maybe John Page and I have the time now from the earlier part of session 1.1 and the other one the key thing is what is the role of the family because qualitative data that some of my colleagues in the business who have done show that women start the enterprises whereas their husbands are informal employment and as the business grows and becomes profitable the women become more of operations managers and then the men take over so you are finding some switching in there. So how are the family dynamics and that may be a question broadly to all of us in here because why aren't African enterprises going for instance? You have families where they start businesses and when the first generation is exiting there is a fight. So the business never transitions to that next stage so maybe that family conditions or societal norms may be also playing out so maybe I don't know if you have some comments but that will be my answer to you also. Thank you. Knuton from the Novation Aid Agency in Ural. I used to work for the trade union so this was really nice to listen to about the big differences when it comes to union activity but where I come from the wages are mainly set through collective negotiations in the export sector and the unions and the government enforce the same wages across the economy and then you have a very high level of coordination and that is probably necessary when you have strong unions without they will be too strong to promote the interests at their local and sectoral interests. But I have a question regarding South Africa. It has been a decline in savings in South Africa both in the private sector and in the government and also there are problems in the electricity sector with the big deficits and load shedding. What kind of consequences do these things have on the industry in the country? And we will take actually two more and then we will finish. Okay, so thank you to the three presenters and the discussant, interesting conversations. So I have two sort of short questions. So the first is Lawrence. So you mentioned that when you look at the variety of imports you find that imports from more advanced economies tend to have a greater or larger productivity impacts. I'm sort of just trying to understand whether how do you sort of make the comparisons? Are these the same firms importing from different types of sets of countries or are these different firms imported from different countries? I just wanted to get a sense. And the second one is which also sort of struck me is you mentioned that firms that export, so probably I'm not quoting you verbatim, but firms that export to sort of more demanding markets are not the same ones exporting, are not actually exporting to the region and those who are exporting to within the region they actually not, their productivity is rather low. So I'm just curious, I don't know if you have sort of thought about this in terms of, those firms obviously if they were to export maybe they are producing different commodities but if they were to export in the region I would think that they would actually do much better because obviously I think it's probably the margins exporting to the region probably the margins are actually higher than exporting in very competitive markets. So I'm curious as to why they are not actually exporting in the region, yeah. My name is Shumail Stenao. I also come from Ethiopia and really thank you very much for your presentation. Now following the presentation of professor or doctor, Jerusalem, let me give a very good example about women's entrepreneurship in Tanzania. I have conducted several research studies in Tanzania and one of it was about women cooperative dairy. Now these women actually started that as informal groups, first of all. Then by using the cooperative principles strictly then they formalized them service as co-operators and they formed a cooperative dairy which is administered and managed by themselves. And when I made that study in that area it reminded of my own area in the northwestern part of Ethiopia. In Ethiopia we have quite many informal types of cooperation in several sectors. So women, according to my observation in Kalali region in Kilimanjaro area are able actually to start their own entrepreneurship first as informal groups and then formalize them, I mean formalize entrepreneurship through formal cooperatives. I think this is one important thing that can be learned from that kind of activity. Perhaps that can be also transferred in a country like Ethiopia. Thank you very much. Thank you for the comments. I'll start responding to your comment which I think was the only one actually directly related to my paper. So do the higher wages that we see lead to lower profits, right? That was the point. Yes, there is data on profits in this survey and John has worked on that so maybe he can also add something. But in this case I didn't look specifically at what this means for profits partly because when sort of narrowing down to the number of firms it's 300 only. In this case because the focus is the worker so obviously there wouldn't be so much you could say the profit if divided or calculated per worker there would be maybe not enough variation to say anything about it. But I've done some other work also in the case of Vietnam on larger data sets of firms where we find that firms that contribute to social security which in the case of Vietnam is linked directly to the wages. So there's some link there. It doesn't necessarily decrease the fact that they start to increase their contributions to social security, health insurance, pensions, contributions and so on. There we don't find lower productivity per worker or profit per worker. So yeah, I mean my response would be I can't say anything about a sort of definite causal effect but we don't see an association to lower profits and the kind of reasoning or intuition behind it is that these firms are able to attract more qualified workers more motivated and so on because of their sort of willingness to pay social contributions indirectly meaning higher wages. And that kind of then links back to this data set where we see that actually the firms that tend to have higher share of union members are also the firms with a higher professional share of the workforce. So again, it seems to be that these are firms that are by nature more productive and profitable and therefore not necessarily losing out by paying the higher wages. So let me deal with the electricity. So in effect the blackouts or the allocation of electricity have been resolved not through production but basically as the economy has declined and demand for electricity has fallen below capacity but there are new electricity plants coming online. I think the key issue really is about the price and so what we've seen in the last couple of years is phenomenal increases in prices. So South Africa has moved from an economy which had exceptionally low electricity prices to one in which we have recently, I think, very high but they sort of average to upper electricity prices. And I think that fundamentally does alter our major source of comparative advantage. So a big story about South Africa's industrial development is the so-called mineral energy complex relationship where exceptionally low energy prices facilitated the emergence of processing of metals. So our largest manufactured export is essentially processed basic metals, iron and steel and some of the other nonferrous metal products as well and that arose off the back of very low electricity prices. So what we're seeing now is with these rising electricity prices that these industries are taking particular knocks which has then been compounded by declining global demand for these particular products. So I think there's enormous challenges there. So I think we're going to see big changes in the composition of our exports but we're also seeing remarkable changes in the efficiency of use of electricity production because the prices have raised. So I think there are... Just on terms of the savings, we have seen declining savings and declining government and governments playing a role in the savings. There's actually an interesting story about that is that the extent to which this dissaving drives up the value of the real exchange rate. So we're having very low private savings, we're having very low savings of a government and there's no savings. And to what extent does this drive up the meaning of the prices particularly some of the prices of non-traded inputs itself which then affects the real exchange rate because what we've also struggled with is reasonably strong real exchange rate over the period. Some of that's commodity boom and so on but that's not really my area of expertise. But on the productivity essentially we try a different measure as we categorise firms whether they're predominantly a high importer from high-income countries or predominantly importer from low-income countries because we see as firms tend to import from both. Some only import some but in most cases they import from both regions. We then also tried the results presented here we were just looking at the variation, the varieties from high-income and then the varieties from low-income or other countries as I indicated. And effectively we're looking within firm changes of the time. So we're firm fixed effects so we ultimately try to capture the variation and the changes in that relationship over time within a firm and how that correlates with changes in productivity or export. We don't actually find there's a significant difference between in terms of productivity in that relationship. There's some evidence that it may influence there's some evidence that importing varieties from high-income rising import varieties from high-income is associated with stronger export performance particularly in terms of destinations and products. But I'm cautious about saying that it's too strong an indicator of technology transfer through that A because the measure is a proxy for technology transfer and B in some cases the coefficients are not actually significantly different. So I'd say it's more suggestive of technology transfer and it's linked to exporting but not productivity. We don't find any significant difference. Thank you for your suggestion first. So two points were raised. One on societal norms in family dynamics how does that play on enterprise performance and the other was on cooperatives. So my thinking is in terms of addressing the specific needs of women entrepreneurs is to think about the question on whether they have a different binding constraint than men. I can point on two at least. One I have already discussed on skills maybe they have different set of skills and the other one is on time constraint. We don't often consider time as input directly but maybe women have a different set of... that's maybe one of the binding constraint when it comes to the nature of the owner of the enterprise and then that's where I would put the family dynamics on depending on whether the owner is differently constrained on time. I do have one study on Ethiopia showing that the share of time entrepreneurs spend on their enterprise matters for their performance so maybe the differential impact on business performance comes out of the time constraint they have as a person overall. That also reflects on the division of labor at home and whether they have access to formal or informal set of childcare. Thank you for bringing the cooperatives idea in one. So maybe I would speak to you later on but I am not aware of how the cooperatives what kind of binding constraint they address by women becoming part of these cooperatives but I can take this one on one later. And I will close it now even though George had a question. I think you can take that afterwards. Because we are over time one minute so sorry about that and hopefully I will see a lot of you for the day. Thank you.