 وإن تعجب فعجب قولهم إذا كنا تراباً أإننا لفي خلق جديد أولئك الذين كفرو بربهم وأولئك الأغلال في عناقهم وأولئك أصحاب النارهم في يا خالد ولكن الشياطين كفرو يعلمون الناس السحر وما أنزل على الملكين بباب الهاروت وما روت وما يعلمان من أحد حتى يقول إنما نحن فتنة فلا تكفر فيتعلمون منهما ما يفرقون به بين المرء وزوجه وما هم بضارين به من أحد إلا بإذن الله ويتعلمون ما يضرهم ولا ينفعهم ولقد علموا لمن اشتراه ما له في الآخرة من خلق ولا بئس ما شروبه أنفسهم لو كانوا يعلمون من هنا نستطيع أن نأخذ بعض الأشياء عن مجيكة من مجيكة الإسلامية أولاً نريد أن نحاول أن مجيكة هو شيئاً كما تفعله في الآية إنه علمون يتعلم إذن فقط أعطينا جنوراً أعطينا هذا الأشياء نحن نحاول إلى... نعم ما أريد أن نفعله is أم أن أقوم بإمكانك أن نرحل الآية من أول حالاً من الأن أحاول أن أسلق أشياء من الآية التي أريد أن أفكار على الممتع عن أن تفعل مجيكة الإسلامية أولاً أن نحاول أن نحاول أن نحاول أن نعلم إلمون ويتعلم وأنه مجيكة التي يتعلم ليس شيئاً ما يخطر منهما أو شيئاً ما يتعلم ويأتي إلى المال فيتعلمون منهما ويأتي إلى المال هناك شيئاً ما يتعلم نحن نقول بأن الله أن المجيكة التي تفعلها في الآية هناك كفر وقد علم لما نشتراه ما له في الأخيرة من خلق أن المجيكة التي تحاولها لا يوجدها هنا بعد أي أشياء نقول أنه مجيكاً ونحاول أنه لا يتعلم ونتعلم ما يضرهم ونفعهم يتعلمون ما يتعلم ونحاول أنه لا يتعلم ونحن نقول أنه ما يأتي و لا يتعلم ما يفرقون به بين المرأيو وزوجه ونحن نقول أنه ما يأتي ونحن نقول أنه ما يأتي ونشتراه لأنهم يتعلمون منهم khôngوثذ يتتعبون تأثير من الإمام وإمامه وسواء و that is something real and not something imaginary كأنها خارجة لأنهم يفعلون أنهم يفعلون هذا ، يفعلون أنهم يفعلون هذا من بين إيمان و وائفه و نحن نعلم بأن الأفكتة فقط يحدث بمدرسة الله سبحانه وتعالى وهي تكري وما هم بضرين به من أحد إلا بإذن الله شخن نويا فهت بعض الأمر من قائده نعم إن شاء الله الحمد لله رب العالمين والصلاة والسلام على أشرف الانبياء والمرسلين سيدنا ونبينا محمد وعاله وأصحابه والتابعين لهم بإحسان إلى يوم الدين أما بعد عندما نبحث عن القرآن والسنة نحن نبحث عن مدرسة سحر نحن نفعل أنه يحدث بشكل مجرد يحدث بشكل مجرد أول مجرد الشيخ محمد ومشاء الله أخبره وهذا كل أمر يخفى سببه ويوتخيله على غير حقيقته فهذا كل مجرد الشيخ يخفى سببه ويوتخيله على غير مجرد نحن نتحدث عن مدرسة سحر الله يخبرنا إن القرآن يقول قال ألقوا فلما ألقوا سحروا أعيون الناس وسترهبوهم وجاءوا بسحر عظيم هذا هو أشياء موسى عليه السلام والمجرد فلما ألقوا سحروا أعيون الناس فلما ألقوا سحروا أعيون الناس فلما ألقوا أعيون الناس فهذا ليس كبيرا ما نشارك ولم يحدث له غير ممتاز فهذا يكون خاص بأياء فهذا هو أخبره السبب الأخرى لذلك هي أعيون الناس شيء ما يحدث في الشيخ يقوم بعمل الناس السحرة عبدالله القرطب يقول يُعلِمُون الناس السحرة لا يمكنك التعلم ما ليست حقيقة فهذا يمكن أن يكون شيء محاول إنه شيء يوجد حقيقة يمكنك التعلم على أحد أن تفعل أحد هذا هو الثاني الذي يوجد ولكن أنا still trying to stay on the first one because I'm not really convinced I think perhaps if we go through those four meanings and then maybe from there what we can do is we can branch out into specifics of each one yeah so the second meaning that it revolves around and inshallah I do because the first one is actually what we're going to be discussing and has it actually even happened and is this a difference of opinion and what are the arguments that they've bought it for the second meaning is that the word سحر is and this is the one that you're referring to but it's just that the person doesn't really understand what's taking place right now they just can't see it a trick of the hand it's what the Arabs would say I deceived him and this is one of the ones that the scholars put into the Hadith of the Prophet that in eloquency is magic that's the one they put in بل نحن قوموا مسحرون the third meaning that it has in the Quran is that is that's what Allah says وقال الكافرون هذا سحر هذا ساحر كداب sorry وقال الكافرون the disbelievers they said هذا ساحر كداب here ساحر they mean a deceptive individual when he's making up things who's forging things and the fourth one is الجنون someone's a lunatic, crazy and that's the one that Allah uses in Surat Isra where he says فقال له فرعون إني لأظنك يا موسى مسحورة here he means مسحورة إما جنون موسى I actually see you as a crazy person you're not fine you're not normal so what we have to do is and this is a principle in our religion is we have to really understand the verse that we're using that type of سحر that is used okay لأن الحكم يدور لأن الحكم على شيء ونفرب أنت صوري in order to place a ruling on something we have to really perceive the definition of this particular word is it we both have to agree on this word is actually the one that we're referring to here يخيّل إليه من سحر أنها تسعى the verse is like this was it used by the people of the ألو سلم they use it in that regard who are the people that use it in this situation so let's make our conversation easy and say that we both agree all three of us will agree that there is such thing as slight of hand in the tricks which is the second one you mentioned and there's also deception and line and there's also insanity so out of the three of the four you mentioned I don't think there's any dispute between the three of us that they exist and that they're a reality the one I suppose where we should probably revolve the rest of our conversation around is this thing where magic you call it a reality like real magic what do you mean by that we can stop there for a moment on something you said there about the three of us agreeing those things to be reality I think we should also agree that all of them could be termed سحر لنجوستكلي that all of them the word سحر لنجوستكلي could be used to refer to any one of those things and if that's the case then the issue you have here is we're dealing with a word that can be used in more than one way so it's important that what we're trying to establish here is whenever we talk about a particular not a text an ayah hadith what is the or an event like slate of hand what is this what are we actually talking about here what is that what's the reality of what we're talking about here because we know and that's a principle in Islam the names don't change the reality of things I can somebody can be playing with cards and call it سحر but that doesn't change the reality and the hookah of what that issue is is that that person is moving their hands around with cards so I feel that's an important point here that this is a word that has that has a broad usage لنجوستكلي and can be used in a very wide context and so whenever we start to talk about we need to be very specific about what we're talking about because there's no doubt that what we talked about in Surat Al-Baqara in the 102nd ayah is not card tricks so what I will say is that before I can agree to that I definitely agree that the word سحر can be used for the last three categories and it can be used in any of those three categories I can't agree it can be used for the first because I'm yet to believe or yet to be proved that it actually exists in the first place that is that real magic that you guys are talking about real magic previously what we did was first of all let's understand when we speak about حقيقة سحري to do تحرير محل النزع to actually get to the point of contention and discussion to be more fruitful I have to understand what we're differing on you're saying that the four types of meanings of سحر three of them there's no problem and I'm not in issue with it so it's the one that you actually have a difference or you differ with us on right now is whether the actual magic can really take place that something can happen like that which happened at the time of نبي الله موسى عليه السلام for instance نبي الله موسى عليه السلام we already discussed يخيل إليه سحر عقون النس for me that both of them indicate it falls into the second it's more deception to see with the eye of the people so let me explain something to you first of all the issue of سحر actually really taking place actually happening is a mess-a-la and we've always mentioned this the source that we take our religion from is the Qur'an and it's also the Sunnah and also the consensus we discussed that last time and we've also agreed that that is our premise for every every time that we have a difference these are the places that we take it to الله says there is not an issue you differ upon except the ruling is with Allah so it's either through the Qur'an or it's through the Sunnah or it's through the consensus okay so الإمام أبو معالي الجويني رحمه الله عبد الملكة بن يوسف عبد الملكة بن عبدالله بن يوسف الجويني الإمام الحرمين he mentions he says what تفق الفقها على وجود السحري that the فقها meaning أهل السنة the people who hold on to the Sunnah they unanimously agree upon that the فقها and أهل السنة sorry all agree that the سحر is present what did he mean by that it could be I'm going to break it down now for you so أقوال العلمة الحقيقة for سحر is two views the views of if we loosely use the word العلمة is two types the first one is أهل السنة والجماعة on one side who say that the magic has a reality it does exist it is present rather some of them they even went as far as saying that this wasn't something that even the previous Arabs the previous the جاهلية they didn't ever differ with it they knew it أمام previous nations had to affirm this magic didn't exist and in our religion the Quranic discourse the Sunnah all of it affirmed it and consensus for example let me bring consensus that was transmitted by السحر ثابت وحقيقة موجودة سحر is present and it's real is firm established وحقيقة موجودة and its reality is present اتفق أكثر الأمام من العرب the overwhelming majority of the Arabs agreed such as رسي وهندي وبعض الرومي على إثباتي that's what he said and then he used the evidence from the Quran and the Sunnah because we know the Qaeda is كلام وعلماء يحتج لها ولا يحتج بها the statement of the scholars are not approved in and within within itself they require an evidence even though he transmitted a consensus here but he used the ayah يعلمون الناس السحر he also used the ayah ومن شر ومن شر النفاتات في العقد and he said وورد في ذلك أنكر العيانة والضرورة وفرع الفقها فيما يلزم الساحر من العقوبة وما لأصل لو لا يبلغ هذا المبلغ في الشغرة والاستفادة سنة if we look at it and what took place if we look at the Sunnah of the Prophet ﷺ I'm going to mention it إن شاء الله he says أن الأخبار and the narrations that have come لا ينكرها no one rejects it and no one rejects it even if a person was to look at the reality he might not what's taking place and what's happening قرافة رحم الله also transmitted a consensus no weak transmitting a consensus ابن قودامة transmitting a consensus ابن قيم رحم الله he transmitted in his كتاب بداع الفوائد a consensus that's the first view the second view is those who said that there is no magic it doesn't exist this is within Ahlu Sunnah no when I mentioned them there are some people we want to take them out of Ahlu Sunnah who did kind of go but this view is قولو عامة المعتزلة and the view of the overwhelming majority of the معتزلة ومنوا فقم and those who agreed with him like أبو بكر أرازي والحنفي who is really well known as الجصص he an أبس حق الأسترابيدي رحمه الله and also ابن حزم they are the ones who have taken this opinion that there is no such a thing as magic and they rejected it لكن قرط براحمه الله he is the one who has said ذهب عامة المعتزلة وأبو صحاق والأبو وأبو من أصحاب الشافقي إلى أن السحر لا حقيقة له وإنما هو التمويه as you mentioned وتقييل وإهام لكون الشيء على غين ما هو وأنه ضرب من الخيفة وشحوذا all is just illusion and everything so this is an opinion that you are mentioning now it's important to mention where it stems from where it comes from and all the arguments that you are going to bring or what you are going to bring forth is an opinion helped by the معتزلة it's not what أهل سنة and a view that they push and I just mentioned to you those who've said that it is then إن شاء الله I'm going to bring the evidences as we go along إن شاء الله do the معتزلة believe that Allah is one they are the Muslims so they can be in right in certain things right but for your view to go in line with the معتزلة and then go against أهل سنة in the totality I feel like every time we speak I mean it happened on the Jinn episode as well it just comes back and the scholars have said this this is إجمع you can't go against this I was not one or two if it was one or two or three or scholars then I person would have said to you we would have said to you and maybe let's look into even more deeper but I'm saying to you that أهل سنة أهل سنة they all unanimously agree on one opinion not to mention that the سخر mentioned here I know they are saying حقيقة to who it's reality is that not talking about the reality of slight of hand it can happen the reality of insanity it can happen why do you always I feel like you've added this first category that I'm yet to agree on and I'm not even sure if it exists or not I think when when we look at what these some of these scholars said we've heard some of the quotes it's very telling the way they describe the coal of the معتزيلة the words they used to describe the coal of the معتزيلة they describe the opinion of the معتزيلة as being the opinion that magic is nothing more than illusion that by if we look at the reverse understanding indicates to us that according to أهل سنة it's more than just illusion they use the word حققة or حقيقة it's reality it's something that really exists it's not something that's just illusion so I see here that even in the way that the اجمع is being conveyed to us there is within that an indication of what the two sides the opinion that the two sides take and ultimately you can't take a position and then when you look at who took that position alongside you you don't find anyone among أهل السنة who took that position you find that the only people taking that position are the معتزيلة and those who followed them from particular individuals who either were from them or either people who sort of followed along but أهل السنة والجماعة their belief is that magic is a reality and magic is not merely illusion and those two when you take them together exclude the fact that their meaning of magic was the illusion that you're referring to that makes sense there's something I also want to add to it I'm going to bring the evidence as well for the view but I just want to put something in context and I really want this to be understood some people think that the معتزيلة looked at the Qur'an and they looked at the sunnah and they came up with a conclusion different to أهل السنة and that's not what happened okay this is very important to be understood شكولي سام تيمير in his كتاب بيان مجمله أتقادي هل السنة he really elaborated on this point which is they came to a conclusion these people they've already reached a conclusion and once they've now met their conclusion and they felt this is what they believe then they went to the Qur'an and they've tried to force those verses to go in line with what they believe and this is where the scholars they say they believe in something and they affirm it there's a preconceived notion that's what they believe and then they look for the evidence and then when the evidence comes to them they turn the neck of that evidence they break the neck of that evidence they push that evidence away they shove that evidence to the side everything has to be in line with what they okay what is it they're using as a premise and they use it أكل it just does not make logically make sense to us and so now the نصوص الوحيين is going to have to go in line with what I've already affirmed so this is is different from a person who read the Qur'an read the sunnah and did not see this proof in the Qur'an it's totally different you see so you tend to find some of the علم that may reach a conclusion with a deviated group sometimes but they read the Qur'an they read the sunnah and they felt that this was the right way but whereas the مبتدع like the مبتدع and others they reached this conclusion all based upon a preconceived notion prior to reading the Qur'an of the sunnah rather their their relationship with the Qur'an and the sunnah is very low very very low okay so let me give you some evidences إن شاء الله and prove to you that this is something that number one is a consensus and we I've said this to you before if there is a consensus there is no need to go to the Qur'an and the sunnah and you prove that in the jinn episode yeah I did I said يا إلدين عامل وعطيع الله وعطيع الرسولة وأولي الأمر منكم فإن تنازعتم في شيء فردوه إلى الله ورسولي إن كنتم منون بالله وليوم الخ if you don't agree with one another in an issue and there is a difference then go back to the Qur'an and the sunnah but if we all agree on an issue that a consensus is a proof now that's it but even then even then I'll just the consensus must be built of something from the from the text yeah no doubt this ayah is a محل الشاهد for this point and it proves that a deal of those who say أهل السنة which is this is not so in English that means so they are teaching yeah they teach what they learn ما يفرقون ما يفرقون بين المري وزوج dividing between a man and his wife I know people nowadays they can learn that they can start learn how to tell tales learn how to gossip learn how to maybe even entice another man's wife there's there's plenty of ways of doing that without let's take a step back now let's take a step back you said previously that the magic is تحيل meaning it's not just تحيل it's also a deception and lies I remember the three things okay so a deception lying you know so a deception is one تحيل is like illusion is another one and the third one was it's kind of like insanity so okay my question to you that you won't be able to answer right now in this verse is that فا يتعلمون كذب افتراء is not something human needs to learn it's a default position for the human you can learn it you can learn how to how to lie you can learn how to become a better liar you can learn how to so with the verse we did not we did not have been better for the ayah if we look at it اتبعوا ما تطلوا الشياطين على ملك سوليمن وما كفر سوليمن ولكن الشياطين كفرو يعلمون الناس السحر why would it use specifically magic here to divide between a wife and his a wife and a husband because it could have been a combination of all three of those things that we agree on and it's easier just to use سحر see that's the issue now you've taken it of us and you've explained it on your own interpretation okay let me give you a hadith that explains the ayah okay that gives an explanation of the ayah okay اليمان مسلم ناريته لنصح من حديث ديابر رضي الله تعالى وقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم إن ابليس يابع عرشاو ابليس plays He thrown على المائي on the water ثم يبعطوا صراياه then he sends his delegation or he sends his men and فأدناهم منه منزيلة اعظمهم في تناثن the person that the shaitan brings closest is who which one is it it's the one that causes the greatest trial and tribulation يجيءوا احدهم فيقولوا one of them will come and he will say فعالتو كده وكده I did this this to him and then he will say to him ما صنعته شيان you really haven't done anything ثم يجيءوا احدهم and then another one comes فيقولوا ما تركتوا I never left the two I mean the wife and the husband حتى فرقتوا بينه بين امراتي I made these two leave each other so the shaitan is involved in this one it's not just the issue of lying the shaitan is involved and the ayah clearly shows that as well what ever it matters to الشياطين على ملك السليمان so the shaitan here is the one that's dividing them and we mentioned in our previous episode that the jinns within them are believers and then within them are shaitan and the relationship إن شاء الله تعالى as the episode unravels إن شاء الله تعالى we'll speak more about the relationship between the jinns and the sihan and how that works but here what we learnt and additional information additional evidence that we learnt is that it's not lying because the hadith would have because the prophet ﷺ told us in this hadith that the shaitan sent these two people now let's look at what the scholars took from that like for example look at this for example مجاهد بنجبرن a great imam بكرمة حسن البصري فتاعدة بحاك all of them they said يعني السواحر this hadith they looked at it they contemplated over it these are the people of the language again people but great I just shared I had it at a point but even your view I just asked for this play even your view that you're pushing forward they're a view by a people lesser in degree and less incompetent it's two things it's a view by the people it's a view by the reality of what we can see around us oh no reality honestly the reality does show us magic we see people who magic has been done to them and it's not an issue of delusion I think more than that the first question that came into my mind when you were putting forward your argument there was if it's lying what is the reason why الله عز و جل terms it to be كفر and says that the person will have no sharing hereafter because we know that lying poorly speaking is a major sin and the belief of Ahle Sunnah is that major sins don't take you outside of Islam and furthermore for Allah عز و جل to use such a severe term you know not only to mention the word كفر but to say اشتراه ماله في الاخر رتي من خلاق this person will not have anything in the hereafter for lying for spreading gossip every one of us who lies ماله في الاخر رتي من خلاق and he will have nothing in the hereafter this indicates that there is something going on here that is far greater than simply lying and that is the use and that is the worship other than Allah عز و جل through the use of the shell team in order to cause to cause separation between husband and wife as you mentioned in the ayah there is another point that we talked about reality we don't just see صحر from the reality of the مسحور we also see it well established and documented in books written by magicians people who practice magic telling the way that they practiced it so I think it's unfair to say that we just see this person who is unwell and then we say oh this is صحر we also have manuscripts of books of documentation that talks about صحر from the point of view of the people who practice it of course for the person who is in the hereafter whether he claims to be a Muslim or not but also written in Arabic by people who claimed to be Muslims so for me no doubt here the issue I wanted to highlight here is not to trust not in trusting them but in being fair in saying that magic is not the reason that or this idea that what we see with our own eyes is simply that we see some people who are unwell and then we label them as having as being afflicted by magic that's not true we also see people who say that they practice magic from people who attribute themselves to Islam and people who don't we see books written on how to practice magic from people who attribute themselves to Islam and those who don't so it's not fair to say that the reality that we witness is just a reality of some sick people that we just label them as being magicians or as being sorry as being afflicted by magic so I think that has to be said to be fair in terms of talking about what we witness with our own eyes there's a point I want to build on what the Sheikh mentioned is that the ayah you know we tend to see that what you mention about the issue of lying Allah told us that the default position of the humans is to be on the heavens by Assamual Aqaba and angered by them and angered by them and angered by them so to say that man and Adam the oppression is a form of lying they will use all forms to oppress someone so it's not something we generally have to craft and learn oppression is it part of the fitrah? that everyone is born yes it does come to the human the way Allah has created وما يستطيعون في ال Division Of Silence is that he's oppressive and he's ignorant and until he gets rid of those two traits with certainty and patience, he will remain like that. You tend to see those traits come out, sometimes when the person so it doesn't I'd emphasize that they're learning magic. At least we can agree that you can learn to get better of these kind of things. There's still a learning process to get better. But I think that there is there is a still the issue. يجب أن نتكلم كيف يمكن شخص يستطيع أن يتعلم أن يلعب ويصبح كافئة التي لا يوجد شركة منها أريد أن أتكلم على ذلك هذا هو مهمة جيدة أحد السؤال الذي يوجده هو أن هذا الشخص يتحدث عن ملكين و نعرف أن الله يتحدث عن الشخص الشيخ قبل أن يتحدث عنه في الأخضر في الجن لا يعصون الله و يفعلون و يتمرون يجب أن نقول أن الله يساعد أن يدخل أجل كفر. كيف نفهم هذا؟ أعتقد أنه أهم جداً لكي يقول أن السكولات التفصير لم يكن أن يقول أنهم أجل كفر لكن الأشياء المهم here is not whether they were angels or not الأشياء المهم here is in the statement إنما نحن فت ناتون فلا تكفر إذا كانوا أجلين أو كانوا أجلين أو كانوا أجلين بي الله they said we are nothing more than a test so do not disbelieve and that is absolutely key here is that if you look at the ayah from the story of the Sheyateen what is the meaning of the story of the Sheyateen the Sheyateen were those who disobeyed in this regard they were told this is a test don't learn this that's a nasiha and the nasiha was given the message was given don't learn this we are a trial after that the Sheyateen are those who took that information and took that knowledge and used it in order to break between a husband and his wife and those who followed them from the Sheyateen but the key thing here is the advice إنما نحن فت ناتون فلا تكفر we are nothing more than a trial so do not disbelieve another thought that just came into my mind on that that why can't it be the case that actually these two angels there is a collab between it but these were actually teaching lying deception like I said in the first point and the reason why they are saying we are a trial you are not going to leave that lying deception I tell you what I tell you what I told you what I told you this is actually a response to the cover of the ayah that you mentioned as well in response to that why can't it be the case that they are actually saying that don't think this is magic don't think this is actually magic don't think this is real magic if you did that you would be disbelieving it doesn't exist don't think that don't disbelieve we are just lying we are just deceiving first of all my first response is did anyone before you ever say that in the history of I am not sure I don't know but I don't know so I think that one might be a one that you took from your pocket the second thing that comes to my mind is I still don't see how learning something learning how to lie or learning how to spread gossip is according to the principle of Ahlus Sunnah or Jama'a an act of disbelief I think that needs an evidence for it we need to bring an evidence for that okay ساتخن do you have any more evidences for magic in the Quran and Sunnah yeah there is the ayah Allah تبارك وتعالى ومن شرن نفى 30 في العقد the اجماع of the Mufassirin the consensus of the Mufassirin is that this is a سبب نزول it came down regarding a situation of the Prophet ﷺ the magic that was done to him by لبيد بن العصم that the Prophet ﷺ magic was done on him I thought this event took place in Medina and this was a Mechisura according to Eklamaa but they all unanimous agreed that this ayah is referring to that incident the question of when it happened and when it took place could be differed upon no doubt what is a Mechisura and what is a Medina by the way the concept of Mechisura and Medina is a matter that goes back to نزول القرآن the Quran descending we took this in more length when we were explaining the Kitab النقايا علم التفسيل من كتاب النقايا by جلال الدين السيوطي the concept of what is Mechisura and Medina is actually not unanimously agreed upon some of the scholars when they said Mechisura and Medina they were referring to قبل الهجرة وما بعد الهجرة that the Mechisura came down before Mechisura before they went to Medina and Medina is what came down after Medina they went to Medina or after the Hijra and the Mechisura is before the Hijra and a group of scholars they said no Mechisura is only what came down in Mechisura so whatever came in T'a'if is not considered to be part of Mechisura and whatever came down in فتح مكة in Mechisura is considered to be Mechisura مدني صورة so the definition of what is Mechisura and Medina is not by the way unanimously agreed upon definition that's number one secondly is that they all unanimously agreed on المفصرين كلهم that this ayah ومن شرد النفة 30 في العقد it came down and on the process of Islamic issue the magic that was done to him all of the مفصرين and the Hadith is found in Bukhari and it's also found in Muslim it's the two most authentic sources that we hold onto as Muslims so give us a summary of the Hadith so the Hadith is عائشة رضي الله تعالى عنها she said صحر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم رجلون a man placed magic on the process of Islamic this man by the way he's from the people of بني زريق لبيدم العاصم يقال له لبيدم العاصم not only do we know that the magic was done in the process we know who did it on him حتى كان رسول الله يخيلوا إليه until the process of Islamic started to see things things were happening to him he was seeing things remember it wasn't somebody was doing something to him the whole situation around him was mainly a couple of things in his life mainly specific things were becoming he was seeing it in a particular way specific things صلى الله عليه وسلم and no what it was is that he would think he did something when he really didn't do it صحيح حتى إذا كان ذات يوم أو ذات ليلة عائشة until one day he was with me okay again this shows us it's something that took place in Medina because it's عائشة رضي الله in a situation she said لكنه دعا لكنه she said but دعا ودعا he made dua on him he made dua ثم قاله إذا انسري عائشة الشعرتي did you feel أن الله أفتاني في مستفتيته فيه أتاني رجلاني أمان do you not see عائشة that الله gave me افتاء that which I asked من الله gave me a response to what I asked him for فقاعد أحدوما عند رأسي one man sat next to my head والآخر indiregely another one sat next to my leg because after my دعا الله except today two men came now one sat on my head and one sat on my leg فقاعد أحدوما لصاحبه and then both of them started to converse and speak with one another فقاعد أحدوما one of them sat at the head of the processor another one on his leg فقاعد أحدوما لصاحبي oh it's the illness فقاعد أحد said his مطبوبون and he said ما طبه he's an ill sick man the English terms are not accurate for me لأ when this man his magic has been placed on him and then he said to him who is the one who afflicted with him this فقاعد أحدوما العصم قاعد في أي شيء in what issue قاعد في مشطن from a comb of the processor ومشارطة the comb that the processor was used وأين هو where is it right now he said قاعد في بيري it's present in a well cooled ذروان فأتا رسول الله سفي الناس من أصحابه فجاء فقاعد يعايشت كأن ما أهنقاعة حنائن أو كأن رؤوس نخلها رؤوس الشياطين قلت يا رسول الله أفلا استخرج ته أفلا استخرج ته قال قاعد آفان الله فكريت أن وثير على الناس فأمر بها فادو فادو فينة if you can explain it more so when he said to آعشة رضي الله عنها that it is in the well of ذروان and described this place like we do again the rules of شياطين it's like it's how this place was آعشة said did you not take it out or messenger of Allah the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم as for me الله has cured me from it now here the scholars differed over whether the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم took it out and they differed considerably over this because the روايات are different some of them mentioned that he took it out some of them mentioned that he didn't take it out but the general response was regardless of that that Allah cured me from it he gave me a cure from it and I was fearful that it would cause a harm to the people some of the scholars mentioned that the people might learn how this is done and do it to others or some of them mentioned that it might itself it contains a harm in it that the harm from it may spread to other people so this is like a comb with the hair of the prophet's license the hair tied into the comb in knots and this is the well-known حديث بخاري المسلم حديث of آعشة رضي الله عنها so some of the scholars mentioned that he took it out but he didn't he didn't open it up fully and some of them mentioned that the stronger opinion is that he took it out because the narrators had their memorization was stronger and others mentioned that he didn't but that point is a minor point because the rest of the story matches completely the issue is that she said to him did you not take it out or message of Allah I said no and he replied as for me Allah has cured me آفاني and some narration شفاني Allah has given me شفاء and Allah has given me آفاني and the last word he used was the word شفاء أبو عبد الله القرطوب رحمه رضي المفصر he said وشفاء إنما يكونوا برفة العدة وزوال المربي فدل على أن له حقا وحقيقتا the issue of cure it comes from a sickness and an illness that befallen a person and a removal of an illness indicates that this is a reality and this on the issue she mentioned on the issue of the word مطبوب this word طب here the scholars mentioned that it's a kind it's a specific kind of it's a خص من a سحر it's a kind it's more specific as a specific type of of سحر but the word is used for the word is used for سحر and they showed about how the prophet's size and was different because not every kind of سحر is the same there's no doubt about that not every kind of magic is the same and what was done to the prophet's size and had a particular effect in certain things which she mentioned forgetting that he did something forgetfulness about whether he'd been with his wife or not things like that but it didn't lead to other to other things in himself and so this word مطبوب is also important that it's not it's a very specific kind of magic and this word can be used for سحر it can also be used for like an illness or not really does that not happen in the language any idea I mean I haven't come across it been using it so according to your position this is proof that magic does exist because we have a hadith that says that it was done on the prophet's size to the prophet's size to the prophet's size okay I didn't think I would ever say this to you guys but you're holding the same position as the Quraish as Allah says نقلان سورة الفورقان وقال ذالي مونة انت تبعونة إلا رجل المسخورة ذالي مونة the wrong doers the oppressors they say that you're only following a man who's just been afflicted with magic and in another ayah in سورة الإسرار الله says a similar thing إلا رجل المسخورة so both of these ayahs indicate and we know from the مفهوم المخالف the opposite understanding if the wrong doers and the ذالي مونة say in this that you're following a man who's been afflicted by magic it means that the correct position is that he was not afflicted by magic so do these do these ayahs not make you from the ذالي mean first of all the response I want to give you is again we have two evidences seemingly contradicting one another the right way to go about it is to bring them together and not take one in this mystery so I would say I've got the words of Allah and I've got the words Bukhari was a great man but he was a man and Muslim no we have an ayah when we showed it when we showed it so it's an ayah from the Quran here and we have an ayah that you both supposedly seemingly you know for the sake of argument that they're contradicting one another so the ayah doesn't say that this happened to the Prophet's son that's important because the ayah that I'm talking about are talking specifically about this just Allah the ayah doesn't we know the Quran is two types when it comes down there's an ibtida'i and a sababi ibtida'i means the ayah initially just comes down okay just you know just comes down and a sababi means it comes down for a particular reason something that's taking place at that time and we know about the reason through so so so so so we know that this ayah we know that this ayah we know that this ayah by consensus of the mufasirin that it's not just sababi but it's I'm still preferin the words of Allah I'm saying there's a consensus no you don't open a a tafsir book and you look at the exegesis of the Quran except that you will tend to you will find in every single tafsir book that this is the goal which only existed that this ayah came down but again my point here is seemingly contradicting you got one side you bought your evidences we can't take that away from you and we've bought what we've brought now there has to be a way to be bring these two evidences together we can't take one and leave the other this is Allah He mentions categorically and clearly clearly in the Quran that it's a people who've got sickness in their hearts who tend to just take one verse and abandon the other verse or they will take one hadith and turn away from the other hadith first of all as a premise do we agree that the process seems a bashar is a human being so this gives us that the process he's not immortal he doesn't he dies I agree with that and he's a human being من القرآن إنما أنا بشر ومثلكم يوح إلي إنما إله وكم إله وإلما إله وكم إله واحد and another ayah قالت لهم رسولهم قالت رسولهم إننا إلا بشر ومثلكم we are humans like you we're just like you nothing number two and this is where the issues coming to you from which is the the kufar of Quraish they were saying that the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم message that he's conveying is a what is a magic is a form of magic no I remember in the beginning I promise now it's they're saying it's a forged made-up statement of yours again the quran they didn't talk about his message in these ayat no again we're saying even if we take on board what you're saying they're saying that he's got magic that's affecting his conveying of the message of Islam we have clearly now Sheikh Mohammed has already shown you right now that the Qab is a type of magic that was done to the prophet it was a specific thing that was affecting it was not affecting his message of Islam it was not fearing his conveying of the religion they're saying he has magic that is affecting his message he knew about it straight away the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم when the magic was done to him are you saying it's straight away it's not like there was a period of time where he wasn't aware this is interesting some of the scholars actually mentioned this and I came across this in some of the discussion regarding the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم that he that from the things here is that he was he was aware that something wasn't wasn't right and that it wasn't the case that he became completely unaware of everything going on around him and he didn't know whether he had recited an ayah or not recited an ayah it wasn't like that it was a very specific issue and that he was aware that something was not right but that he wasn't aware of the cause until Allah جل answer his to and reveal to him what the cause was is that correct? that's what I've read from some of the scholars and this I think Ibn Qayyim رحم الله تعالى we quote from Ibn Qayyim رحم الله تعالى when he said he said regarding the that was done to the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم وقد انكره هذا طائفة من الناس a group of people denied that this could happen وقالوا لا يجوزوا هذا علي they said this couldn't happen to him something like this as a floor and something deficient to say about him وليس الأمر كما زعموا and the thing this situation is not like they imagined it to be بل هو من جنس ما كان يعتره من من الأسقام والأوجاع وهو مرض من الأمراض he said this is just nothing more than what used to happen to the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم from the sicknesses and illnesses and it's a type of sickness and he said وإصابته به كإصابته بسم لا فرق بينهما and the fact that he was afflicted by this is the same as him being afflicted by poison and there is no difference between them and then he mentioned the hadith and he mentioned then وقالوا قاضي عياض والسحر مرض من الأمراض وعارض من الأل يجوزوا عليه كأنواع الأمراض مما لا ينكر ولا يقتحوا في نبوته he said سيحر is a sickness from the sicknesses and it's something that happens from the things that make people unwell and this is permissible to happen to him like any other sickness which all these sicknesses nobody in the night has happened to him like he got a fever or he was poisoned or he got he had sicknesses happened to him and this doesn't affect his prophethood ابن قيم continues he said as for the fact that he used to see that he had done something and he hadn't done it فليس في هذا ما يدخلوا عليه داخل في شيء من صدقه لقيام الدليل والإجماع على اسمته من هذا he said the fact that he did something and he didn't remember that he had done it this doesn't affect his truthfulness or his prophethood because there is an evidence and there is consensus that he was protected by Allah from anything that would affect his prophethood or his truthfulness وإنما هذا فيما يجوزه أن يطرأ عليه من أمر دنياه التي لم يبع التي لم يبع عتلي سببها he said but this only happened in matters of the dunya which the prophet was not sent for in the first place he was not sent to convey to the people whether he had spoken to his wife or not spoken to his wife this is something that happened to him in the matters of the dunya that wasn't wasn't included in his prophethood to begin with وَلَا فُتْدِلَا مِنْ أَجْلِهَا nor was he preferred over all of mankind because of this so this is just he said وَهُواَ فِيْهَا رْطَتُونْ لِلْعَفَاتِ كَسَاءِ الْبَشَرْ like all mankind he might get sick like anybody else and that's it the quote continues from Zad Al-Mu'ad this is just a simple this question إبن سرتي أوسه سرتي أوسه سرتي أوسه سرتي أوسه سرتي أوسه سرتي أوسه this is established according to scholarly لا يختلفون في سحتي they don't dispute another and his authenticity وقادي تفاق أصحاب الصحيحين؟ بقاريا مسلم على تصرغ to consider this مصحر ولم يتحدم ولم يتحدم أحد من أهل الحديث the people of Hadith not one of them spoke about this بكلِّiliation Marvel with one word We know there were a great scholar الذي كان أفضل من السنة أفضل من القرآن أبو محمد ابن خطيب أخبره لا أريد أن أخبره لأنه أخبره القادر العياط أخبره بعض الأشياء الحافظ من حجر العسقلاني العلم عبد الحماية حل معلمي أراد معلمني في بلده في كتاب التنكيل بما فيه تاني بالكوثري من أباطيل عندما كان رفوته محمد زاهد الكوثري يخبره في مكان كشفة الانوار ويخبره إلى أبو أصدنه المحمدية بأبو محمود ابن أبو محمود أبورية معلمي رفوته به أبو عبد الرحمن مقبل الهادي الوديعي ويستمر بأخبره كيف أخبره كثيرا هذا كان حقيقة حقيقة التي حصلت على المكان لذا فبالكوثري عسلم وما أنت برأيك قريش أخبره بما يخبرونه أن هذا المحمد صلى الله عليه وسلم هو محمد يخبره سوف أخبره أجل الله يقول الله سبحانه وتعالى وكيف أنك تقول أن الله ومحمده يتكبره يتكبره لكي هذا المكان ليس أكثر من أسيقنه مثل محمد محمد بعض الأسكولر here they mentioned that this magic was done to kill the prophet and yet the only effect that it had upon the prophet was not that he died, not that he became confused in his revelation not that he changed any aspect of prophethood whatsoever but simply that he became sick like he became sick from things that are and like ibn al-qayyim said there is no difference between this and that and he became sick from many other things so here what we see is that Allah protected the prophet he protected him, however the reason that this magic happened here there are some some points we can make either Allah wished to show to people the means in which or some of the rulings related to this saw that they saw how the prophet behaved and the ayah was revealed the two surahs and the use of them in recitation in order to seek a cure from magic and so on or this is simply one of the the things which the prophet was touched with like the other sicknesses as we mentioned he said وئلا وئلا وئلا وأما كونوا يخيلوا إليه أنوا فعلوا شيء ولمفعلوا فليس في هذا ما يدخل عليه داخلة في شيء من مصدقي لقيام الدليل والإجماء على عصمة وإنما هذا في مهم يجوز طره في أمر دنياه التي لما يبعك لسببها ولا فضلا من أجلها وفيها عرضة للأفات كسائل البشخ لكن عندما يأتي إلى مدرسه ، هذا هو where Allah promise that he's going to protect him and look after him and make sure that no one and anything harms him عليه الصلاة والسلام. Let me give you more evidences. I mean it's important that I give you more evidences even though the Qaeda is when evidence is enough for one person And if one doesn't, you're a Shahid. What evidence does it give if you don't find content in one evidence? I don't know if you can accept 20 or 30. Give me more because I'm not content yet. Give me more. Give me more. Meaning? No one takes seven adrodates. The Prophet ﷺ said in the morning when he wakes up, he takes those two. No poison, no poison or magical effect. This is not just hyperbolic speech. Like if I say this phone is so good it's going to make you forget about everything else. The Prophet ﷺ did that, right? He said that a lone traveler is a Shaytan. Two travelers are Shaytan. A group of three is a traveling group. They literally mean that they're a Shaytan. It's just hyperbolic speech. He does this in the Sunnah. Again too, we bring it back to this point that we mentioned before. Who preceded you in that and understanding? Shaykh Muhammad is a bit nice too. He said he got it from your pocket. I'll say he got it from your pocket. The second point is that this is very important. And this is the second point which is that the hustle of the speech is that we take it literal. Unless there's an external evidence that may sit metaphorical, figurative speech. The Prophet ﷺ said something. We always take it literal. Unless we find something that we can say, OK, this is not literal now. It's a figurative speech. OK, a question. He's the one who's telling the people for this. And Allah says يَا يُولَذِينَ أَمْلُ يُمَا تَقُولُونَ مَا لَا تَفْعَمُونَ He's told the people how to protect themselves from magic. Yeah, he doesn't remember himself. And he gets afflicted by magic? How does he explain that? What about if it was something that he was taught and educated by later? Which the Asali that the Hadith was after this incident. What about the Atkha for Atkha al-Sabah, Atkha al-Masah? These things protect you from magic and things like this, right? He forgot to do it that day. What are you saying about him? I mean, again, all these are protective issues. There's a side benefit I'm going to mention and Sheikh Mohammed can then build on it. There was a man who was one of the leaders of the Khawadij. He was called Naaf Ibn Azarak. Naaf Ibn Azarak, the Azarika. The Azarika was a group of the Khawadij. They had different names that they were given. And this man, he one day sat in the Tafseer class of Abdulhamid Abbas. Abdulhamid Abbas was talking about the Hudhud. Abdulhamid Abbas said that the Hudhud, when it flies over the air, it can actually see down on the earth of the floor. On the earth, the Hudhud can actually see what's underneath the earth. Abdulhamid Abbas said this. When it looks down, it can actually see the jewels and the things that are in the earth. It can actually see it from the top. Naaf Ibn Azarak came and he thought today I'm going to show Ibn Abbas. Because he was always arguing with Ibn Abbas. Like some scholars, they said if he stopped arguing with Ibn Abbas and he just took knowledge from him, he would have benefited a lot. But Ibn Abbas locked off teaching him because of his argumentation. So he said today I'm going to get Ibn Abbas and I'm going to prove him that what he's talking about is nonsense. So he came to Ibn Abbas after the Tafseer and he said to him, look, you said that right? Why is it that we see the little children in Medina? Place grass on the earth. Hudhud comes in and it goes in and it falls in. And they lock it and they play around with it later on the streets of Medina. And Ibn Abbas said, إذا جاء القدر بطل الحدر. If the Qadr comes, however much precautions you take, that doesn't mean that it doesn't work. It works. But the Qadr has now come. And that's why even the ayah, لهم وعقباتهم من بين يديه ومن خلفه يحفظونهم من أمر الله. That there is an angel protecting the person from the front and the back on the side. Some of the scholars, they said that the person is protected. فإذا جاء القدر, when the Qadr comes down, those angels move away. What's that, Tim? What's the point of even doing the adhkar then if this is just going to be really good? So there is no doubt that we are first of all from the sunnah of the Prophet ﷺ is that we perform adhkar and that these adhkar protect a person. However, there's no doubt also that the Prophet ﷺ was sent down as an example. Now here, the scholars have some points that they mentioned regarding the issue that you said. First of all, ابن حجر رحم الله تعالى and others they mentioned this, that here if the shaitan, the shaitan had a plot to harm the Prophet ﷺ. And this plot with لبيدة من العاصم through the means of magic. However, this plot was not successful. And therefore, first of all, this issue that the adhkar didn't work for the Prophet ﷺ here is also not clear since if this is a plot of the shaitan to cause this harm to the Prophet ﷺ and didn't work, therefore this is a means by which Allah ﷺ protected him. Or that Allah ﷺ, and this is close to the point that the shaitan said here, Allah ﷺ wished to show, and this is also mentioned, طيب and others mentioned it, that the Prophet ﷺ here was to show that he is a human being and that things happened to him as happened to other human beings. And that has a greater purpose than this, simply this idea that if you're just doing the adhkar and nothing will ever happen to you. So sometimes a person may do the adhkar in the morning and something may happen to them. But that thing that happens to them has a greater benefit to them in the long run, or a greater purpose to it, or a greater wisdom to it. That, as the Shaykh mentioned, with regard to the angels that when the decree of Allah ﷺ the angels move out of the way. So here I don't see that there is no point in doing the adhkar. The adhkar protects you from so many harms, not just the harms of magic. The adhkar are not just there to protect you from magic, to protect you from all kinds of harms. And it doesn't stop things happening to you from time to time that Allah ﷺ has a wisdom for. And again the issue of whether the adhkar came after, whether these adhkars are specific to this came after the incident. That's another separate issue. And there's another benefit, that can be added to here is that إبن القيمة is a Kitab with Dawah, right? Yeah. Where he talks about the illnesses and its cures. And in the early beginning pages he talks about the concept of Dawah. Because he says illness that came. So he mentions the concept of Dawah. And then there's no illness that comes down except that the Dawah. You know, sorry there's no illness that comes except there is a cure for it. The one who knows it knows it and the one who doesn't know it doesn't know it. And then he mentions the concept of Dawah from those things. And then he said something very powerful. He said Dawah is like a sword. He said the sword can slice someone but it's depending on who grabs that sword. The person who's going to use it. And he knows how to use it properly. So these things that the أخشرية I mentioned are effective in and within itself. But it's all dependent on the person and what type of sins has he fallen into like رجل يوطيل السفر أشعة أغبري يمدو يديه إلى السماء يا رب يا رب ومضعم وحرام وملبس وحرام وغوذية بالحرام فأنا يستجابوا لذلك. So man he made Dawah. And we can say Dawah Allah doesn't accept it. وإذا سألك عبادي عني فإني قريب وجيبوا دعوة الدعوة إذا دعوة. Some of the great mufasidin they took from this ayah. Allah says وإذا سألك عبادي عني فإني قريب If my slave asks me I am close. Allah didn't say to them فقلهم إني قريب. He didn't put the prophet between us and him. Now he spoke to us directly. فإني قريب I'm close to you. Generally Allah used the word قل say to them Muhammad. But here when it came to the dua Allah spoke to us directly. So that means that the relationship between the slave and Allah when it comes to the dua is direct. So the point here is that the dua is a silah of the mu'min even though the hadith is not صحيح. لكن المعنى هو صحيح. The meaning is correct. That the dua is the weapon of the believer. But then again the weapon needs someone who knows how to use it. So Ibn Qayyim said that the person has to have a strong forearm. He mentions all of this and knows how to use this sword. Also this blade can weaken in one hand and not in another hand. So again we won't belittle the dua and the edkar and the adjwa dates and all of these things. There are means. They are all means. And we don't depend on the means alone. We always believe that the means can happen and it may even sometimes تقديل الأسباب can happen. Allah can actually stop the means of happening. I mean we know things that have the means of harming people and we know it hasn't harmed people. Like نبي الله إبراهيم عليه السلام. The fire lost its power to burn. Fire can burn. We won't say to people go throw yourselves into fires. But it happened that الله تبارك و تعالى took from the fire the ability to burn نبي الله إبراهيم. You know. So magic can't happen except with the permission of Allah. لا شك. We say that. We do say that. If Allah wills it to happen it will happen. If Allah doesn't want it to happen. But with regard to the Prophet's isam here the situation is no doubt slightly different. Because here it's not we're not talking about the issue of the أذكار being effective. We're talking about as we said one of two key things either that this is something for which that there was a plot of the Shaytan and the أذكار were effective and this is the sign that the أذكار were effective. And also when we talk about you know I thought this in a very profound حديث I forgot to mention earlier and I wanted to mention it is that we talk about how the Prophet some knew didn't know what was happening that he had things that he did that he didn't remember and yet when those two men stood at one at his head and one at his feet he saw Allah. I said him was able to perceive it completely and he never had a time where he wasn't blocked from him being able to perceive that and being able to know the answer. So in reality Allah did protect him and the أذكار the أذكار were effective for him صلى الله عليه وسلم but he went through an experience which that experience was designed to show us how to behave in that situation and to give us rulings and examples that come out from that. So that also doesn't contradict this concept that the Prophet was protected or that the أذكار protect a Muslim. So the benefit of showing us that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم was a human being is a is one of maybe one of the reasons why this affects him to a certain extent but that benefit would not have been if it affected his revelation which is why Allah didn't allow it to go beyond a certain extent. No doubt. Okay. Even subhan Allah one of the benefits that I took from the Seerah was some of the I'ma to Seerah they mentioned that the battle of Urhud you know the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم قوسية رباعية his tooth broken and the the prophet was wearing the helmet he went into his drawer and the scholars they said a profound statement they said that this was an indication that the only one who is ويبقاوات ربكة الجلال والكام the one whose face will not be harmed who can never be through suffering and pain is Allah that makes sense this is the Prophet of Allah he went through all of this we as Muslims the religion that was right before us the Prophet that was right before our Prophet by the way Prophets had many prophets in between them the Prophets there are many other prophets between them like the Prophet and the Prophet were right after each other and the Prophet before the Prophet they moved him away from Bashariyah being a human they made him into something you know the Prophet even mentioned in many authentic Hadiths لا تطروني كما أطرت النصار the Prophet don't go overboard with me like the Christians went overboard with the Prophet so these verses and these Hadiths actually show us that the Prophet after all he's a human being but he's not an ordinary Bashar by the way he's a prophet sent from Allah so so we say نبي يون we say عبدون فلا يُعبت but he's a slave we don't worship him ونبي يون فلا يُعصا and he's a prophet we don't disobey him okay صلى الله عليه وسلم okay so a question for you guys then so we're talking about magic being kufr now we have certain prophets like the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم splitting the moon or موسع عليه سلام part in the red sea is this not a form of magic and therefore are we now saying that the prophets are committing acts of kufr how do you explain that okay a point that I want to put out there clearly and then I'm going to go into your answer properly which is that first of all when the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم mentioned that he was a prophet sent from Allah and he said نبي يون I'm a prophet I'm not lying there were people around him who saw him those people from them were businessmen أقالاء there were leaders of their people respected you know chief members all these people saw the Prophet people who could distinguish people live in the heart one of the hardest lands in the world one of the hardest in the middle of the desert know how to survive people like that are the audience of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم those now a lot of them became his companions and his followers all of them any exception like one company if you bring me then I say this is a good dialogue today that we're having a good discussion of this issue and he has you've got a you've got a strong argument but we have not one companion ever saying that there's no magic not one companion it's very important because these are the people Allah told us in the Quran و السابقون الأولونة من المهاجرين والانصار والذين التبعون بحسانين رضي الله عنهم و رضو عنهم رضا I'll tell you this صحابة و رسول الله and the students of the Prophet's companions which are called the Tabi'a'een and the Tabi'a'u Tabi'a'een which are the students of the students of the companions none of them have said anything that alludes or even slightly indicates that there's no such thing as magic do you know why the first people who actually said the first people that this state came out of their mouth the first group of people were the Qadari'a and then there are Qadari'a in the issue of Qadar the first people so it's worrying when your statement goes right back to a group like that you kind of have to say to yourself whoa is this the kind of people I have have you got statements from the companions where they say that a red unicorn with seven horns doesn't exist none of them said it I'm saying I've got this is important but that red unicorn isn't mentioned in the Quran yeah so do we have statements from the companions affirming magic no first of all magic is something stated in the Quran stated in the Sunnah we have them affirming it and then we don't have any of those reject if one companion affirms something and another companion doesn't genuinely believe it it's not going to happen from within the companions that they will not come and say I don't agree with you we have Sahab is correcting each other زركشي has a kitab it says that I should correct some of the companions you know saying that فولان is wrong by saying the statement like Sahab has never let each other say things which they genuinely didn't agree with so we don't have any companion rejecting the statements of those who are affirming it you have an abashe statement you have a wakara statement or one of the Allah's statement none of them have been rejected here these people affirmed it so this is an issue that has to be put out there now now coming back to the question that you ask the process of splitting the moon and the concept of magic now they too both have something in common and they've got many that they differing the first one is that these both are outside the norms so this is the point that you're trying to I think you're trying to use now I'm going to give you the difference between what the prophets came with and that which the magicians come with and the difference between the two one is referred to as a معجزة أما دلائل النبوع it's an evidence for the prophets for the prophets prophecy it's معجزة and another one is called magic I'm going to give you some things that make the difference between a معجزة and سحر so you can then say wow okay they're actually not the same number one معجزة remains years after that prophet I'm a decade I'm a centuries I'm a lifetime after that prophet has gone this still stands it still remains it doesn't stop okay whereas magic as soon as it happens it doesn't stay it just goes the effect of it doesn't stay okay it doesn't mean it doesn't remain so the moon is still split so for example the معجزة that we have right now no just this one magic just one magic another one our biggest magic is the Qur'an the Qur'an is outside the looms have to understand that it's not your ordinary speech so it's going to remain it stays even the prophet has gone the reason why the معجزة is connected to Allah whereas this is connected to the person who's done it so when they go out of the picture then the magic goes with them number two المعجزة صاحبها على رؤوس الأشهد the magic is done in the presence of people in an audience point number two معجزة is done in the presence of all people like a person who's doing معجزة will do it in front of everybody the wise the smart the clever the intellectual the the academics the every here is what do you guys have to say about this whereas the magicians they do it in front of بين الجهلة وضعفاء وضعفاء العقول they do it in front of people who can quickly believe in them dimwitted people lame man that's what they do it to number three أن المعجزة تجدوا لها قبول وصد حسنة في النفوس المؤمنة معجزة receives acceptance by people who naturally are good people they accept it it goes in line with they accepted without arrogance and this increases their of course their determination and belief in it as for magic you generally see the people who accepted are what again وضعفاء وضعفاء and the weak people are you talking about accepting the reality of magic are you talking about accepting what just came from that magic that was done as whether it's a miracle or not as well as from from Allah or not I mean a person will see right through and say I see what you mean this does not seem real okay number four أن المعجز لا تكون إلا في الخير ولي جلب الخير معجزة always bring good for the people when it comes it brings good whereas magic on the other hand it always brings harm it always brings oppression in place evil you always see that something evil is being done to the community someone's suffering now look how they're sick they're all of and معجز doesn't do that to people rather معجز strengthens the person in the lifestyle it makes them better and good number five أن أعمال السحارة يمكن أن تعرض بمتلها a magician you can actually repel his evil with the same thing he did if you do it as well it will repel it and you can get rid of it straight away whereas الله's آيات you are never able to get rid of it it will stay as an effect it will not be easily be removed وداك شخصام تيمي قال الفرق بين النبي وبين الساحل the difference between a prophet and a magician and person who's crazy أعظم من الفرق بين العقل والمجنوني والعالم والجاهل is far different from the difference between an ignorant person and a person of knowledge and a person who's sane and a person who's insane the way you can determine who's sane and who's insane and the one who's knowledgeable and knows and the one who's ignorant it's that clear to tell the difference between a prophet and a magician and I think also there's a very, very practical example if when we look at what happened between موسى and between the magicians because here on one side we have سحر and on the other side we have المعجز competing with each other in a single time so the magicians when they threw down their staffs and they became like snakes خيلوا إليهم من سحرهم أنها تسعى فأوجس في نفسه خيفة موسى موسى felt فيها in himself قلنا لا تخف إنك أنت الأعلى you said do not fear you'll be the one who is superior وألقي ما في يمينك تلقف ما صنعوا إنما صنعوا كيدوا ساحر ولا يفلحوا الساحر وحيثوا أتا تلقف ما في نفسك سوف تسعى كل شيء ما they did the only thing they did is كيدوا ساحر so what did موسى do if the only thing they did is كيدوا ساحر then what موسى did was a معجز a miracle ولا يفلحوا الساحر وحيثوا أتا and the magician will never be successful whatever he comes whatever he does wherever he is and whatever he tries to do he'll never be successful ultimately and so فألقي الساحرة وصجدها the magicians themselves fell down in prostration when they saw that what موسى had was not magic it was a miracle from Allah عز وجل قالوا آمننا برب هارونا وموسى they said we believe in the Lord of Haroon and Mousa this is the clearest difference between a معجزة and between سحر even if you look at the beginning of the issue between مولى هموسى and the Sahara the magicians you find that the who they are both connected to is different the magicians when they started they looked at فرعون and they said أين لنا لأجرا إن كنا نحن الغالبين do we get some reward from you are you going to recognize us if we win this and we bring home victory whereas نبي الله موسى his relationship is with who الله that's clear so the magician is always going to talk about مخلقات and creations whereas the نبي and the one who is upon the prophet's way is always mentioning الله الله that's one of the biggest signs number two that you tell from them is the way that the Prophet موسى عليه صلاب عليه صلاب was fam on what he was upon how they quickly turned away from it and as soon as they took what the prophet came with they were fam as well رضالك فرعون when he scared them and he said to them إنه لكبيركم الذي علمكم السحر فلأوقط أن ايديكم وارجلكم من خلافهم ولأوصل لبنكم في جدوع النخل ولا تعلمون ايون أشد عذاب وأبقى you know I'm going to cut your legs and your hands and I'm going to do this and this and this to you guys their response was قالوا لا يضير you know there's no harm do what you wish إنه إلى ربنا مون قليبون we're going to go back to our load إنه نطمع ان يغفل اننا خطايانا وما اكرهتنا من السحر they're talking about their relationship with الله already it's so clear when you really look at it the one who's connected to Allah and the one who is a prophet and a magician it's like between day and night to really distinguish it but I want to say something again last point I want to mention here is you resulted to an Adilla أقلية now what you just used right now was a rational argument and you're trying to use it in an issue of the غيبي at the unseen and this is generally common amongst the people they tend to fall into some mistake is that you're trying to use an evidence a rational evidence in an issue of the unseen you're trying to say logically it doesn't make sense that this man is doing خوارق العادة and this is this person is doing خوارق العادة they're both doing things out of the norms it doesn't make sense then which one is right and which one is wrong this again shows that Adilla نقلية is the first way to prove things and now we've shown it that rationally it makes sense that magic can happen it's an illness from the illnesses out there the prophets can't go through illnesses the prophet can have a hay fever he can have a headache he can get sick it doesn't have the prophet can become tired and he can become fatigued and sometimes even when you are tired and you are fatigued you generally do feel lack focus is not there but doesn't affect a person's okay I think that's been a fascinating discussion I've really thrown everything at you guys from front pockets and back pockets and I think what I'd like to do now just before we close the episodes that's all we have time for is just to give a summary of the kind of stuff that we've discussed today okay so the very first thing that we said is that magic is something which is established and mentioned in the Quran and in the Sunnah and by the consensus about the Sunnah it's something real which has many different branches and different forms and affects people in many different ways it's a type of knowledge which people learn and that knowledge causes very real effects among people and most importantly there isn't anything good in it there is no white magic there's no good magic there's no beneficial magic it's something that brings evil it brings destruction it brings separation even when people try to use it for good it brings about their own destruction and the destruction of others we've learned that this is something which Islam and indeed all of the nations that preceded or the vast majority of the nations that preceded the Muslims were also in agreement that this is something evil and something which brings about evil and destruction within the community and it's from the plots of the shaitan and the means by which and indeed from the things which the shaitan loves the most to cause for magic to cause these kind of issues and separation between a husband and his wife for example is something that we need to protect ourselves against and it's something that it happened to the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم but Allah عز و جل protected him and kept him safe and gave him a cure and informed him about where it came from and we not having that guarantee of protection from Allah عز و جل we need to do what we've been told within the sharia to protect ourselves we need to be cautious with our atkar and so on and the means of protection that we have and most importantly if something like this does affect the person that they go through the proper Islamic process of seeking a cure from Allah and not that they go to another magician in order to remove magic that was done to them جزاكم الله خير و انتو بوثوا of you for joining me once again on the hot seat podcast join me again next time where I'm going to have both speakers with me and we're going to be talking about evil eye and ruqya ان شاء الله until then في أمان الله والسلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته