 Hey, everyone, this is the OGM check-in call for Thursday, February 3rd, 2022. I think the middle of the country in the south are having a blizzard and a really bad cold snap. I don't know if that's playing out, playing out the way it was, the way it sounded like it was going to play out, but it sounded pretty nasty. And then yesterday, Hunk Satani Phil saw his shadow so we're in for a longer winter, if you believe any of that kind of thing. It's lovely to see everybody. I think it appropriate, Pete, since you launched the bi-weekly Plex dispatch to begin with that and encourage everyone to sign up and so forth. So why don't we go Pete, Doug, Stacey. Thanks. Thanks folks for checking out the bi-weekly Plex dispatch. I appreciate it. I was up a little late working on it, so I don't know. How did you get that all done, like so like whoosh whoosh whoosh. I did something kind of interesting, which was I kind of made the deadline for submissions midnight the day before I wanted to publish it, which allows basically like almost zero like final production time. And then of course, at least one person was like a little late on the deadline and so. I always hate deadlines that are like, you know, like I have a little bit of news right at the end and catch you fit it in. So anyway, I'm going to stick with it. Be a little bit more, I'll get more done before the very end. Awesome. Do you want to talk about it a little bit? It's a bi-weekly newsletter of what's going on with the communities, the intercommunities, OGM and around. And one of the, I did observe, I was in a couple of different meetings with different people and one of the effects that I was hoping that the newsletter would have is just that, you know, having a newsletter of what's going on with community news, which means I have to go like ask people what's going on, which, which sparked some great conversations. So it was a productive kind of, we had some productive conversations just because, you know, a community as a small group was had to say something. And then it's like, Oh, what would we say? What do we think about that? What are we, you know, what are we doing? What should we be doing? So that was, that felt good. It's not an obvious, it's not an obvious purpose for the newsletter. It seems like the newsletter should be the trailing edge of what's going on, but it kind of ends up being the leading edge a little bit too. So I like that. It's a good thing. And some of us had reflexes and just wait too slow. So next time. It didn't quite get into the deadline. But you will next time. Yeah. Awesome. Any other things you want to check in with Pete? There's funny stuff going on. No. Good. All right. Let's go Doug Stacey class. Okay, several it's been a busy week. And with the confusions around what's actually happening with climate change and the economy and whatever. It's hard to get a good grasp of what's happening. I think that's most on my mind, as many of you know, I'm working on this book that has the working title of Garden World politics on the idea that we face a difficult future. And the main needs humans are going to have are going to be food and habitat. And let's put those together into one project like Italian hill towns. I have a book by Lou called the gardens of democracy. The cover shows one farmer in a field of many, many acres working by himself. And the books titles the garden of democracy. That's quite a contrast. And a bit weird. I don't know what to say about you know, I think it's right about what should happen when things are changing so fast is difficult. Because the more you see what's happening, the harder it is to get a grasp of what it actually is. I think as things fall apart, people move further and further away from each other, and it's harder to coordinate. And that's kind of where we are. We're new economic thinking where I am a consultant of the president. For months, I've been pushing for conversations about climate change. And we finally now have an all staff wants a week meeting, talking about climate change, and it's been refreshing to have gotten there. And an amazing kind of political process. And I guess that the thing that's on my mind and probably on several of your minds is how bad is it going to get. And what do we do about that. As a kind of overarching question. So I'll stop there. Thanks. Thanks, Doug. We do about it I mentioned someone else was going to do that but I wanted to do that. I have not read and this is a book that I've long wanted to read but I've not read Pema showdrons when things fall apart. I'm wondering if anybody else has apparently grace has and maybe a couple others of you have and what, if you remember what was in it how that might apply to the situation Doug just described. Like, what, what sorts of things is Pema recommending we do. No escape. No escape from the situation. Meaning, meaning what meaning that we have a kind of addiction to a kind of sense of self and well being where we try to escape from certain kinds of difficulties. And there's no escaping them and admitting that and basically making friends with the reality as it is is kind of like the first step to avoiding the kinds of suffering that we encounter when we're always grasping for escape. A really long time ago I read a self help book that had a formula called act. Assess the situation like realistically like what's actually happening what's going on. Choose what you want to do and take action something like that it was pretty it was pretty good it was. I think I think accepting reality isn't is a useful advice and that's Byron Katie, the search that the source of suffering is pretending that what so is not so makes good sense Pete. I think it kind of along the same lines, accepting reality or something like that I remember I'm old enough to remember that there was a time when we would say well, it could never get this bad. And then, you know, we could never have an executive branch that went psychotic and did things that were just like massively damaging to the country. And then and then we did, you know, and or and or another one is I think we prepare for a pandemic like, you know, I'm sure the federal government stockpiles, you know, all the things that we would need and and we'll just swing into action with the CDC will know what to do and swing into action and everybody will have an orderly kind of reaction to a global health crisis, you know, and then we didn't. So, I feel like we have kind of this baptism by fire of over the past couple years that at least reset my expectation of what, you know, Doug's question was, how bad can it get. And I used to have these kind of soft answers, you know, like well, you know, like physically, you could imagine things like a zombie apocalypse, but that wouldn't really happen. So there's a bunch of soft, like, like collaborative things that we would do before it got really bad. And we've kind of blown past those and we keep playing pass them and we've observed the fact that we're blowing past them and we blow past them and, you know, so it's just kind of interesting thinking about how bad can it get and I guess I'm a little bit OCD with my gadgets. I try to keep my, my phone and and my, you know, all my, all my gadgets, nice and pretty and pristine and things like that and I remember Kevin Kelly. And he said something like, you know, I kind of like it when my gadgets get a little bit dinged up and a little bit scratched and stuff like that it makes it feel lived in and that was like mind blowing to me because it's like no dude I can't have that. But afterwards, I at least can hear that that voice Kevin's voice in my head, even though I still try to keep my things but it's kind of the same feeling that I had when we had a crazy president and the same feeling I have when we have a failed health public health response and things like that. So we don't really talk about how bad it could get. I mean, I begin to imagine with the migrations with the failure of food crops that we are surrounded by a miserable amount of death. Just to give you one idea, this whole thing about the Ukraine, Ukraine is the fourth largest crane producer in the world. You have countries like Yemen, Lebanon, Egypt, Sudan, depend on Yemen for like 10, 20, 30% of their caloric intake. Yeah, out of the Ukraine. So if the Ukraine, you know, if there's a war breaking out into Ukraine, and it will involve of course these crane coring regions, which is what Russia wants to have back here. You will have chaos breaking out in parts of the world you don't even think about as being related to this conflict. And one of our problems is that humans are way too adaptable. Like we will get used to bad situations we will get used to bad news. One of Trump's tactics was to always shift the Overton window by shredding it. And then, hey guess what, now it's permissible to do this and do that. The thing I was that always makes me like stunned is John Dean was bounced out of the political campaign for yelling too much at his troops that was like the Dean scream and he was gone. The big scandal in eight years of Obama was that he wore a light gray suit one day. And on any given on any given day of the Trump administration he did eight things that were like remarkably worse than than any of those things intentionally and survived like like is still like still wandering around doing things. Grace you had your hand up a moment ago did you want to jump in trying to grab you between bites sorry. I mean it's it, you know, I have a feeling the how bad it can get question isn't a useful question in any way. And that's what, you know, that you would look at in like, you know, the Buddhist history alluded to with what is the important question. And the important question is what do I do and who am I. And what are the actions that I take. And so, yeah, it's going to get a lot worse, and you can keep looking at that but I don't look at the wall. I don't figure 20 Robbins talks about when he was learning how to drive race cars, you know, because it was fun, and his teachers like don't look at the wall, like the most important thing is don't look at the wall, when you're about to crash. The temptation is to look at like the crack like where I'm going to crash. And as soon as you do that's where you go. And so I try not to look at the wall. I try to look where am I going and what can I do and, and it does seem quite quite hopeless indeed but what's the point of being hopeless about it like I might as well just do something. The other thing I wanted to comment it's interesting that Doug was talking about this and I'm also working with another group that's talking about like this blueprint for governance and you know like that's my thing I'm into governance. But I noticed when I was talking to Wendy that you know that when I have a different way of looking at governance completely. And there's, it's not like there's a thing that's the government. It's like there are these flows and input and output mechanisms. And I've been talking about having wheels like I'd really like to have wheels, but I can't have wheels because I have this particular skeleton. And I've been looking at governance more along that line like what are the things that the infrastructure that we have is dictating upon us that no matter what I do I can't have wheels. And if we can change that it's kind of invisible but but a lot of the problems are facing now is really because of the infrastructure so we have that limit our, you know, like, pretty much all of human activity at this point to profit. And, okay, well it's within that you can have you're going to have another mental discussion. Anyway, that's it for me. Thanks for it. We've got a Stuart Doug Gill Kevin on this topic and then back to you. Yeah. Just quickly on the, on the analogy of looking at walls when you learn to drive a motorcycle they tell you to always look where you want to go. Which is just critical on the on the Trump things that Jerry was saying. Always there have been some unarticulated norms of how democratic governments acted and Trump, and I'm not a great historian and somebody may know differently, but Trump just came along and he just obliterated all these norms he accepted ways of doing things and it's because in part, it comes from the Roy Cohn school of how you act in the world. There was another thing that I wanted to say but I can't remember it so thank you. Doug. Well, I think we just are not really talking about what could happen. My own view is that we're better off facing the full reality because it actually then motivates actions that might possibly be adequate. If you don't look at what could happen. You come up with solutions that don't scale into the real problems, and it was time. Yeah, I'm sorry. Kevin. Yeah, I want to say something about wheels and walls and norms quickly. Grace you can't grow wheels. But what you're calling infrastructure as defined thing isn't the same you've got biological constraints but our social constraints are not they change things change and it feels impossible. But all that stuff is malleable at some level. I think the walls is really important but you can't pretend that the walls are not there to Doug's point and so I think this is a really delicate balance of how do we, you know, not deny what may come and think about that and plan for that but not live in that. And that's a real challenge you know we have to live in the affirmative and the creative and what we can do and also do what we can to prepare for for what could happen and I'm. I'll tell the one days, but the checklists and the folks have seen that Jerry it's probably in there somewhere. And he talks about an example of, of, of airline catastrophes and the diagnostics of why a particular class of airline crash and they, they learned that you're flying this plane it's got two engines and one of the engines goes out there at 30,000 feet and what do you do. And if what you do is jump into action. You and everybody else on the plane dies. And if what you do is have your co pilot pull out the manual and go through the decision tree to find out what is the situation that we're in you know this engine, it's the left and turn of the right engine work this out to do that. Go to page 397 and do the four things that are there it seems insane to take all that time to do all that stuff when you're hurtling to the ground. And it turns out that's what worked. So having things thoroughly thought through thinking about contingencies building plans, critically important, but these guys don't spend their life flying the plane in the manual they fly the plane. In real time with what's true right now so that's what you know that raises for me on the Trump and norms thing the mystery for me there is how are norms maintained. And how was he able to break them, why did, why did the repair mechanisms not arise to prevent that. And a lot of what grace what you're calling infrastructure is in the realm of norms. Gil, I think, I think you're the question you just asked seems to me like to be like one of the really important sort of levers in the situation because Trump realized that he could continually expansively break norms, and then keep it and then we got used to him breaking norms and it would be like, ah, it's just another day with Trump. Very say Trump and banning. Yeah, and he didn't do this he didn't figure this out himself. And Trump ban and cone I mean I think I think Trump has a Trump was well trained by a whole bunch of people and then picked up a bunch of things that he was able and skilled to do but another problem is that when there is no repercussion for breaking the norm than the norm fails right and and and so everybody else was unable to say hey, something should happen for this norm breaking and one of the reasons OGM exists is I was hoping that the press corps would have a consistent memory of some sort. And let's pretend the press corps would agree and say hey, here's six things, even even those of you on the on the other side of the fence, here's six things we all agree are actually facts they're complete lies or fabrications and let's see if we can find those six. The next time we're in a press conference that standing in front of him, when he hits the first one, we're going to, you know, hit a buzzer at the second one we're going to turn off our cameras and leave the room. Because because for Trump media is oxygen he didn't care at all whether it was good or bad news or bad coverage or somebody was yelling at him, but he looked powerful, he was happy and sorry to go off on this long Trump road. But it seems to me really important because the norm breaking helps us forget the reality of our situation and helps us forget the scale of the dangers in front of us. Sometimes then we start exaggerating the scale of the dangers in front of us that's happening to, you know, all of this, all of this seems to be going on simultaneously but there's something. The norms that have been broken or the norms of journalism, such as they were they were not perfect at all. Jeffrey Zucker who just has resigned in disgrace from CNN. Aside from sexual depredations has apologized for all the air that he gave to Trump in 2016 and somebody did the analysis and you know, the news page, you know, the news media likes things that are on fire that are dramatic and so it's you know there's an other thing that somebody figured out they gave him about $2 billion worth of free media in the 2016 primary season Bernie Sanders couldn't get airtime was largely blacked out she'll fairly late in the campaign, and Trump got $2 billion worth of free media what if it had been what if Bernie had gotten a billion or what if this thing was spread evenly or what if they act like actual journalists. Yeah, so there's the forms that were just shattered early on, but norms shattered by some of the norms because part of the norms of the media was if it leads and leads, this is dramatic this is fun, you know, put it on the air. So let's make money. You just said I've been tracking for a while in my brain which I'm sharing here. And is the reasons that should have resigned way back when in disgrace forget an affair with a colleague. This is important. And then I actually recorded a video and said this on a panel in Colorado and stuff, but I'll pass this video over here. But when when Trump basically said something that he did. Oh, when Trump rolled over Romney does everybody remember when Mitt Romney tried to stop the Trump train. Romney did a press Romney did a press briefing. Somebody forgot to turn off the PowerPoint so he had slides on his face which was terrible. And he said, and he said this man is out of control he's dangerous he's awful. We should we should, you know, he's he was trying to snap the whip back. So when Trump then has his own little press conference but waits and treats the whole thing as airtime. At that moment sucker should have said hey everybody. This man has figured out how to use us against you and until we sort out how to respond. We're going to show you a lot less of him. Yeah, and that's in this video here which I'll I'll share right now. Note that note that Romney, after that has, you know, hardly ever voted against Trump, right, or anything. Somehow, aside from the norms there is some grip that this guy has on the whole political class where they dare not cross. Somebody played yesterday Kevin McCarthy speech after the January 6 interaction and he was intense and fierce and highly critical. And then within a matter of days. He was shut up and told the line. And we still don't know quite what that is for Lindsey Graham there was like, there was a 24 hour period in which he played a golf game with Trump, and completely reversed. And one of our sports here at home is to try to imagine what that conversation was. We have videotapes of Lindsey Graham. Does he, you know, have a have a hit squad. Does he have piles of money to money or a lot. I mean, it's, you know, it could be just I will not let you win your next election but it seems like there's something more than that in there, reverse and 180 and 24 hours. Kevin and then mark in the queue and then I'll go back to my original queue and tail in your face is really funny. What happened to me. Oh, I'm sorry Stacy I didn't. Then when I say then we go back to the queue, you're the tip of the queue. So these comments are all still kind of in the tail of what we're talking about which we've done now for a long time. So we'll be right over to you Stacy. Kevin then mark. On Lindsey Graham you know there's a lot of male escorts in DC who have threatened to come out. But the, the thing I've been doing for the last week is looking further at places where things are really work. So the Devon donut zero carbon Guildford and finding you know what the genesis of that is and the role of different institutions one is the University of Exeter and Sussex and one is the biosphere reserve and how they got to that point. And, and just you know what, what's the dynamics in of where things are really work. And it's pretty interesting the patterns I'm finding and I'm going deeper into. You know, interviews with them and some about the folks under the hood and what messaging is working with the donut economy that wasn't working with the biosphere reserve it wasn't working the transition towns. And so anyway, I'm, you know, a lot of things don't work some places some places people are really figuring out how to have a coherent collective local response that is making a big difference so that's where I'm looking. Thanks Kevin. Was that your chicken or was that your comment on the previous thread. Well, that's my yeah I mean the other thing is, I'm being asked with this work I do with economic justice to talk to bigger folks for whom, you know, inclusion is like episode five you know it's climate is number one and two and three. And so I'm figuring out how to get on their agenda. And summarize, I mean, you know, it's about shifting a power from below, which I can, you know, people are shifting red line and people are holding one against hedge funds, trying to reverse display spot wall streets and then sole proprietors becoming business owners realizing they have the power to negotiate with their vendors which they never realized before. So I've got a lot of interesting rule changing. And you know, you know, people on the top never change the rules and there's no reason for them to but people on the bottom we were finding some replicable ways that they can change the rules and shit. So that's pretty cool. That's my second. Thanks Kevin. Mark, if you have a comment back on the comment on the previous thread. Go crazy. I've been paying a lot to Neville Chamberlain. How appeasement got a bad name. And certainly appeasement is a very universal human behavior. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And it doesn't work with Trump. Trump has found a way to break norms in ways that people like. And I don't exactly know, you know, what to, you know, how to basically say, I'm not sure how to articulate the sense and governance, where if somebody stops a disaster from happening. I really get a credit, the credit of letting the disaster happen and then, you know, marching in and dealing with the disaster. There's a pattern that I don't know how to name and I wish I could. And if anybody can help with that, I really appreciate it. And that's the comment. Can you describe the pattern just a wee bit more and that'll give us a little bit more sort of fertile, a little more fuel for thinking about how to describe it as a pattern. I'm trying to remember where I had heard it, and it had come up several different times, but basically, if we have a taxation regime proposal that is going to basically make the middle class beholden to the people with the a lot of money with billionaires and basically eliminate the lower class, the people who work to prevent that from happening are not going to be credited with a reward in terms of. Gosh, they really did a good job. Thank you so much. We're going to keep you in office. It doesn't have a kind of. Attention doesn't have a kind of aesthetic pole as reaction. Does that help in any way. I think so and then anybody else who wants to elaborate on this or play it out feel free to jump in whenever on the call. I would just note that we need to pay attention to who owns the media that report on these stories and decide which stories are worthy of reporting or not. That's all. Sounds good. Let us work our way back to the queue now and we had Stacy Klaus Wendy Gil. Okay, and I'm sorry I didn't get to go earlier because I hate to change to shift the conversation because I love this one and I can't even get involved because I'm thinking about what I need to say. We've had some conversations about why we're not chatting in the matter most. And one of the things I brought up is that there wasn't enough motivation for like somebody like me to do that but in reading and learning that Vincent has a cat bot that we'd be able to use that would be able to pull out everything we have in this chat and help us create an external memory. I think that's motivation and I wanted to kind of bring that just mentioned that here, because there's a lot of stuff in this chat already. And that would have been useful. So that's really all I have to say, and that's it. Stacy, thanks. And we recently had this conversation about hey, should we keep trying to shepherd us over to the matter most chat so that we have persistent chat between all the sessions, which I find super useful. And then also it lets us, it lets us go Oh yeah yeah yeah that thing that question mark asked earlier I think I have an answer now two days later. Right that that that leads to that really nicely. So, Peter someone if you would put a link to the calls channel in the matter most. Now we're already have deep into this call but but Stacy, I like the idea and we didn't determine that I would make that effort at the start of the calls but should I so. I think that I saw, like I said for me personally. Yeah, I'm willing to go the extra mile because there's a, you know, I feel like I'm doing a service, whereas before. I don't really need to do it. So I'm wondering if there are other people that might feel the same. I think it's a very strong poll raise your hand if you think going over to the matter most would be useful and it's something we should put some energy into. Knowing that knowing that Vincent has. What is it called a catabot that he could actually use to help us harness this stuff. It's not just throwing it there because we think it might be better. I'm just going to do this but I don't know if that would be confusing. It's like needs more context around it, right, like, you know, are we only going to use matter most are we only going to use zoom. Are we going to use both. What happens for people who can't make it into matter most. There's a bunch of questions, you know, if I if I had my druthers there'd be a little plugin that would replace this chat with our matter most chat, and there would be no zoom chat file because the interface would blend elegantly and nobody would. We wouldn't have to worry about the other questions you just raised Pete but that does not exist that is not the current. Yeah, for me it's just too much to do zoom and zoom chat and matter most chat all together as like so I could go there and try but I wound up not doing it eventually so it's too many or is in the water at the same time. Yeah, I was about to say some of the most successful zoom. Sessions I've had did not use the chat and we're using external memory systems and chat systems and you know you're able to, you know, post images videos I mean something richer than what zoom chat affords. So thanks for bringing that up Stacy. Let's go back to the chicken round sir Klaus Wendy Gil. Yeah, so I would like us, I would like to bring us back to what Doug started talking about, because we're really in a whole lot more trouble than most people realize and then you know I've been working on food and agriculture for 10 years now since my retirement and getting increasingly alarmed about seeing the system deteriorate without without anyone really jumping to it. And I was in a in a meeting yesterday where bills act secretary of agriculture bills that was speaking and it was a congressional hearing and he got challenged on wanting to engage the American agriculture into climate change mitigation. Because, you know, this congress person is my my my voters don't talk about climate change so why are we talking about climate change with agriculture. You know, I mean these guys are just so stupid it is incomprehensible to listen to, but the European Union is way out there already and and and determined to to initiate this change. And I'm on the advisory council for the four per thousand initiative which drives the agricultural policy in Europe. And so we have been comparing notes for for three years now, and they are they are they are moving now at its speed. It's really amazing to see, but the the the core issue is funding, you need funding, and in order to mobilize the transition in agriculture which needs to be done because we can't afford. You know, two, three, four more growing seasons to pass. When you when you look at crop losses in the United States last year. It's incredible. I just posted an article where in the last five years crop losses have quadrupled in the United States. I mean, think of the Mississippi River Delta think of California. California is flat out of water. It produces 50% of the US produce and foods. I mean, there are some key crops where they're in the 80 90% range like broccoli and stuff. And so, then you go in so how can you develop a funding mechanism. And that supports this transition from conventional farming chemically intensive conventional farming towards regenerative organic farming and the problem is that the farmer needs money up front. So these in the way the carbon markets are structured is that once you do know these these things, then we calculate how many tons of carbon that may have sequestered and then we'll pay you for it. Well, that's that's too late first of all, besides it is not a process structure that leads to regenerating the soil into organic status. So I'm putting out there's a paper that I've been where I've been summarizing my thoughts about how something like this could happen but basically, the farmer needs to develop a model that that shows how I can transition from where I am today to what am I going to do first, which is probably stop tilling your soil and put a cover crop on it to what am I doing next and that pulls a crop that's that pulls nitrogen into my soil. So, so, so really focused on shifting my growing the cycle into what is good for the soil prioritizing basically the design imperative for the changes is the restoration of soil. And instantly that points down to so now you have different types of crops coming out who's going to buy those right because the entire food system is so locked down into this monopolized centralized process of corn corn and soy I mean there's like, there's like four crops that produce 60% of the world's calories. To change all that means you have to have a whole systems change right so the entire supply chain has to adapt. And you have to turn the entire system upside down because when you think about how the impossible burger and know all these plants protein extracts are working no one paid any attention to what that does to agriculture. Right, I mean they've they've they went out there. If we take this crop and we will genetically modify this corn or the soy then you know that optimizes the amount of protein we can draw out of it no one paid any attention to what is this going to do in the agricultural sector, you know to the soil behind it. So, so that I mean from a design perspective that is a colossal failure of thinking a colossal failure of the imagination. You know, and now you have billions and billions of dollars invested in this market shooting us into the wrong direction because it's a continuation of mono copping practices that require chemicals which destroy the soil. So, then you go into the crypto markets right because here hey here's the creative guys here the hedge fund managers. Here's the guys who are coming up with this amazing dows and let's take all the acronyms and all the intellectual power houses right are figuring out how to bring creative funding to the four. And when you talk with these guys everybody is out to get rich. I mean the only thing they can think of is what's in it for me. So, so even in the financial markets these guys are just completely out of it. I mean, you simply cannot sit down and say okay, what are we trying to do to do here as an outcome. Right. How can we, how can we create a funding mechanism where even inside the community people can put some money in because I bought my local farmers to do this and to regenerate and so on. So, finance is the key to this now when you look at what the European Union is doing he that just came out this just came out today. Basically, they have been comparing notes from a strategic perspective, and they're just wondering there the Europeans are yeah we got to do this. And so they are out there here in the US. We talk about it, and there is basically no intellectually and understanding, of course, of course, all the NGOs somewhere engaged in it but you can't get the energy to consolidate a plan and to structure, you know, a is a coherence strategy, which then anybody can can jump onto and that in my mind is the principle of a Dow right the distributed autonomous organizational network needs to have a common strategy which is shooting all over the place and it's just nonsense. Right. So I'm like super frustrated because I mean, I'm, I'm, I talk literally I talk with one group who wants to engage in the funding financing of transitioning to regenerative agriculture and they literally told us that they are looking at 500,000 acres minimum so consolidating farmland, right bringing it together in some really complex financial scheme. Which then, you know, is a great these the plan then is to make this feedstock for the impossible meat kind of products. So if monoculture fields going sorry, go and go on what other piece are now big in there. It's insane. These people are all insane. Right. And this is what is saying is that to talk to talk and I these people appear to be insane because they refuse to accept the reality of of the Well, in deep shit guys. I mean, the, the, the climate system is changing on so many levels so fast. Right. And the only way you can catch that is by photosynthesis meaning restoring nature, you know, to allow nature to to function again, and to stimulate photosynthesis to pull the carbon out of the atmosphere to protect the soil to restore the water cycles, because that's also a part of restoring soil is you're restoring water cycles, and to just ignore all that, you know, and keep running after the stock market and after the next financial gig incomprehensible to me I'm sorry I I'm just, I'm just like, I need to calm down and figure out. So I'm, and so the difficulty is to pull together a team that has the intellectual capacity to cognitive capacity to, and the skills right to pull together a financial model, you know that that can be replicated easily that can be spread out across multiple actors and and and work at scale because I can tell you the government isn't going to do it even so wills that wants to do it he talks about doing it is not going to be allowed to do it. Thanks class. I want to throw a couple things in the conversation and then I'll pass to Doug and grace. But let me chair screen for a second because I've been so mark trexler has climate web where he collects up enormous amounts of climate specific information. His climate web is organized a bit differently from what I do in climate so I'm just offering mine I put a link to this thought in the chat earlier but what will cause people to change their minds about climate, which is under mitigating climate change which has a whole bunch of stuff anyway. And then I've got urgent reports exhorting swift climate change and IPCC and you know here's the IPCC reports 2018 2019, etc, etc. And then another thought, despite urgent reports, nobody is really acting on climate change climate change or the dangerous moment is in which I put in back in 2019 coronavirus and authoritarianism distract us from dealing with climate change, all these kinds of things. Then separately. I subscribed to Noah Smith's excuse me no opinion. And he his offer this week was how to sell gorgeous into the middle class and gorgeous and said there's a land value tax we should just screw all the other taxes. We should tax land and I'm not going to suggest this and I'm clearly no, no tax expert. But what I'm going to what and here's a link to that particular episode of his subject pub. But I'm going to say, what if we had a soil organic matter tax. We shifted things around for all farmers and said hey, guess what, your soil organic matter is above this number you pay no taxes in fact you get some rebates you get some credits whatever whatever your soil is depleted you pay ferocious amounts of money to actually bring it back into health and we're going to we're going to just financially refocus all your attention on making the soil healthy and whatever you do to make the soil healthy will be rewarded and subsidized. Whatever you do to damage the soil will be like penalized as hard as we can get it. And I know that any large scale tax regime change is almost impossible in this country. But that seems to me like, like, fine. I'm like God finance can't be the whole answer but sometimes incentive structures really do work and people will vote with their wallets and move around that way so I wanted to just say does that ring the bell for anybody or ignore that. But the thing is that there is value in restoring soil on multiple efforts but it's also you have USDA for example has funding for pollinated protection, you know, for biodiversity for water retention. And they are their individual funds, but they all, they're, they all come down to basically the farmer needs to change his practices because all of these things are being addressed when you restore the soil microbiome, you know, you're automatically restore nutrient density. Exactly. So, so, so by aggregating these things into one process step, right, which is what I'm suggesting basically in this outline that I have put here by aggregating these benefits you can bring money to the farmer, and you pay it up front because the farmer needs money up front before he can do anything because these guys are working. Or negative or negative. So taking loans to try to buy the seed for the next year that they're underwater. So the idea is literally figuratively sometimes. Yeah, the farmer commits himself herself, you know, to, I'm going to do these process steps and they'll take me somewhere between three and five years to get into organic certification. I need X amount of money up front and then then in the second year I need more money but I have to pass an audit as a first steps that certifies that I am living up to what I've committed myself to do. And then you get the next trench and then the final release is coming when you get your certified status. It's just a practical basis. Landowners benefit from it because your land value increases, right? You can use it for carbon offset, you can use it for processes like Kellogg, you know, like general mills and all these companies to get organic content because they need organic inputs because that's where the market is going. So they, it is just a logical way, you know, without penalties but only really incentives to shift this market at scale. Doug Grace and then we'll go back to RQ. Klaus, I think that part of the difficulty with what you're proposing is that most of the sense that it would support agribusiness and concentration of ownership. So that there are two models, one is we do everything together in an organized hierarchical way, or the other is radical decentralization. And some of us are hoping that agriculture can push us to a non-financial solution to the way the community works. So what you're doing, which is terrific, I don't want to undermine that in any way, but it takes us to the dilemma of what it's doing to the ownership of the economy and who runs it, who benefits from it. But that is the beauty of the potential these dollars have, because they have the potential to decentralize the funding sources to the point where a small farmer can participate. And it's the opposite of what is now happening where the multinational companies basically are developing a system that funds ever larger farmers. You know, they need thousands of day-to-day incentive systems in the current carbon market are structured to consolidate farms, you need like 10,000, 20,000 acres before that even makes sense. Using these funding mechanisms that are emerging because of blockchain-based technologies gives us the opportunity for this decentralization that you're looking for. I think you guys spoke about most of what I'm talking about, but you know, once to what I want to say, like I think Doug said most of it, I do think we need these solutions that are in some ways, financeable, but we also need to be moving towards non-financial economies. So, yeah. Yeah, that's my frustration with finance is the answer kind of in a sense as well. I kill briefly and then back to the queue. Yeah, but finance is part of the way the current world works. I think the debate between decentralization and centralization is not the most useful one to have because we need decentralization and local control and responsiveness. We also need coordination at larger and even planetary levels. And so the question is how do we dance both of those. I don't know how is there the way to do it, but it's a clue perhaps about how do you have, you know, particularly decentralization of ownership, not concentration of wealth, but higher levels of coordination and do those together. In the current game, we're all aimed at getting big corporations and big governments to do the right thing and impose the solutions and all the rest of us and that's, you know, got intrinsic flaws. And just grassroots by itself doesn't get us the coordination. And so, you know, then the heart of that question is why OGM is so interesting to me, because we're sort of playing right in the middle of that question. Thank you. Let's go Wendy Gil Stewart mark me that's assuming Scott that you're listening in and don't want to chime in otherwise I'll put you in the queue. This is so fascinating. Thank you everybody for this great discussion. So this is sort of reaction and comments on what we've been talking about and also a check in for what I've been working on and how what I've been thinking about. And so hearing from from some threads from this conversation and what's the richness that's happening in chat also about the need for you know coordination of maybe maybe a different way to say this self coordination of communities and like this one. So I've been working, some of you know I've been working on a project that I've caught the tapestry. And I'm realizing in this conversation what I'm really trying to enable is not just a way for people to see their thread or their piece in a community, although that's definitely where it starts, but it's also a place for the community to see itself as a system. Right so so I'm trying to be very careful about the the ontology that I'm using so that the ontology is holistic and yet broad enough that people can define it for themselves they don't need. It's not so rigid that people are wondering where they fit in or worried about the terms that are used. So that they can then identify themselves first just be seen so what's been exciting for me over the last couple weeks as I've, and thank you to the people who come to the flotilla calls and Pete for holding that space because we've spent some time on this project and in the last couple weeks and it's been really helpful. And then I've had individual conversations quite a few of you who have taken the time to fill out your pieces, put your threads in the tapestry. The feedback has been really encouraging just from that first step of people seeing seeing the holistic structure made them ask themselves for the first time. Oh, I didn't think of myself in this spot but actually I'm in this spot or I'm in that spot so just the self awareness first of seeing their piece. I think people found more fun than I was expecting, but to me the real, the real excitement comes when, when a community can see itself. And so right now I'm working with Vincent. I've been working kind of, some of you saw the Excel spreadsheet and that's fine for the for the moment, but working with Vincent to put something on Trove, or to have something, a separate app even on bubble IO that other communities could use. And then we're going to start off with just a private space for individual communities to see themselves so OGM will definitely be one of those communities where we'll invite in once we have something ready to go, thinking probably real. I love it to be tomorrow. realistically is probably more like a couple weeks. And then what happens is you can then, you know, the joy of this for us as we're talking about it is that it's not just one more map that's one person put together and everyone else can see which is great but that's not what we're going for what we're going for is you can see it, and you can change it. So you get to filter it however you want, because it's going to be a lot of information. And you also get to change your pieces whenever you want or add pieces whenever you want. You also get to suggest resources and other things so that other people can see so if you put resources say in economics the crosshairs of economics and agriculture for instance, by putting it there's a row for the economy right now, and then you could drag it with agriculture keywords right so let's say you did that then you would see all the people that are trying to work on that and what stages of their project they're in. It just allows for people to finally, you know, see all the people projects resources funding like all in one place. Let's say let's we have a magic run pretend that's happened and people are happy with the interface and they feel like they can use it. Now we can finally ask questions where's the funding going and why in this community. Where is there's a but where is there a bunch of expertise or interest and how can we capitalize on that maybe we need as a community ooh there's we didn't even know there's so many people over in this these areas. There's a special breakout conversation about it so it's really just the beginning. It's not a solution. It's the stuff that we need that leads us to better solutions it's the stuff that we need that leads us to better cooperation it's the stuff that we need that enables better collaboration so that's what I've been working on and I had a note. Okay, that's me. Thanks Wendy. And it's really interesting because in through the course of many of our conversations I've borrowed the metaphor of mosaics and tiles as little small elements of mosaics, and the framing or intention of that was that each project, whether it's CSC or everyone's wisdom or or trove or whatever, paint some vision of where they were headed that looked like a mosaic. And then the tile elements of the mosaic were things that needed to get done to make that mosaic happen to put it in place. And part of my goal was wouldn't it be great if there was some kind of a dashboard where we could look up and see tiles that said this town needs somebody who's really good at bookkeeping or web design or graphic illustration, or constructing a house, and then a tile that served multiple projects because what the goal here would be try to find multiple use and modularity as much as possible, and open source as much as possible, but any tile that served multiple projects would be like a triple project where they were in scrabble, and should be funded before others should like a priority because wow if we put this pile, this time and place, it goes. Now, the mosaics that I was talking about were not current status they were wishful thinking vision, and hopefully compelling vision for each project. And it seems to me like like the tile and the tapestry are sort of the same kind of object, except in different sections from different perspectives at different points in time. And I think I think those those metaphors are both I love obviously tapestry for the weaving metaphor because weaving the world etc etc story threading I'm like completely on board with textile metaphors. Never mind that we call it the fabric of society there's a reason we call it the fabric of society right the the warp and the weft are interdependencies and our connections and our, the trust between us. So anyway, I think that's very rich territory and I'm looking forward to what you're, what you're building. Yeah, and I know gill your, your eager to say something let me just respond really quick one of the things that emerged this week that was really two things. Let me back up first. Yes, I think it's really important to, to be able to identify the projects that are in the emergent space versus in the application space and oftentimes especially for for groups like this one worth, we're actually trying to think about both at the same time which I on on you know obviously think that's a that's a good view and a more holistic view, but I've separated them out because sometimes it really they really do sit in different places and oftentimes people have different skills around that to in terms of expansive thinking versus integrative thinking is tends to be two different skills as well and so sometimes often projects kind of align themselves that way so it does separate that out which I think is really exciting too. And then one of the concepts that emerged this week as we were thinking about mosaics and other things. Jerry is, I think what we may be talking about actually is the mortar between the pieces, and that goes back to what grace and I were talking about to it's it's the stuff that's not getting funding, because it's not, not only is it not the thing. It's not even the pieces. It's the stuff that's enabling the pieces to stick together. And I refer sometimes to glial cells. So everybody thinks neurons do all the work and our brains are all about neurons well like there's a whole bunch of cells called glial cells that sort of. In part they hold the neurons in place and they're kind of the glue between the neurons but in part they're also apparently some kinds of neurotransmitters. And the brain function brain function is I think really more complicated than most people think there's nitrous oxide that flows through our brains as a neurotransmitter as a gas wafting wafting through what we are there's a whole bunch of things, never mind trend, you know, going into the interpersonal space and sort of resonances between people that are part of you know the collective hive mind or whatever else but we've we've worked on a lot as a as a metaphor as well. We love that. So, so I'll post a link to a thought that I created recently called nature metaphors that are really useful. Because all these things are give us tools to explain what what the hell we're talking about and when cause comes in and says hey, we have to sort of observe nature and pay attention to nature and and reward people for behaving like nature does and replenishing nature. Yes, and and and we've replaced those metaphors with these mechanistic invisible handy things that have eaten our minds and grace and others are trying to create projects to replace those scripts with new scripts that will help us to come back to the healthy civilization, which may not involve a lot of money. I mean, we may when we talk about a post money or post capitalist economy or whatever those are the kinds of things that come up and I love that soil I want us to turn that soil a lot. And I think it was Gil who asked earlier class while you were talking whether region dot something is doing what you're talking about. Like, yeah, I would love us to find the projects that most exemplify this kind of work this kind of thinking, and put them up in the spotlight up in some kind of spotlight for us that say hey if you if you had a little extra time to spend, go learn about these or go help them if you can because they're doing as much as we can tell right now the right thing in all of these directions. So thank you for that. Thank you Gil Stewart Mark Scott me. Yeah, it's, it's been very busy up here I'm going to try to speak focused and coherently Wendy yes I have been waiting to say things but I'm really glad that I speak after you. Because you've you've fed a lot of this so thank you for that. Thanks for the three acts checking for me and I'm in an entrepreneurial fervor and also deeply deeply concerned about climate and democracy. And with a sense of despair that I haven't felt since golly, you know, early 60s nuclear confrontation stuff. And before when I watch the don't look up back in December, I was in a profound fun for like two or three days which is really uncharacteristic for me. And it's important because when we think about change, it was the latest poll show that something on the order of 70 some odd percent of Americans are either deeply concerned or concerned about climate change, which you wouldn't see from the politics at all. 50 some odd percent have no fucking idea what to do. So, the, the, the projects like the tapestry that say here are things that are going on across the vast range of concerns that you may have here's places where you can touch. David Gershaw has this wonderful phrase he says everybody feels like whatever they do might be like a drop in the bucket. But if you can see the bucket. And your drop and somebody else's drop and somebody else's drop start to raise the water level over time it's a very different mood than like oh I'm just one person which is dropping the bucket so tapestry is brilliant for that Paul Hawking did a version of this year to go with blessing rest, where he tried to list all the groups in the world working on issues of climate justice and environment and sustainable ag and so forth. If he would talk he would roll it as a scroll on the slide screen behind him and it would roll for 20 minutes of just list, you know, group after group and he'd say, you know, we could run this for about another eight hours. To give you just a sense of the scale of enormous creative activity, grassroots and other levels around the world that is not the fodder for the mainstream media so this stuff is deeply important. And for me the, the, the phrase that I always remember is from Ken, Ken bolding who years ago said that existence is proof of the possible. You know, if you tell me something's impossible but I can show you where it's actually happening. You can no longer say it's impossible you might say it won't work for me or I don't like it or whatever but you can't any longer say it's impossible if it's there on the ground so I'm Andy, and I think Jerry, your, your riff on that of how we use the modern ojami capability to turn that not in just a scrolling slideshow that Paul did, but an actionable web of interconnection of people is brilliant and really thrilling. Act one, act two. What was the thing. Somebody talked earlier on about about our addiction to self. And it's not just our addiction to self it's our addiction to me and you as separate things. Right, me and nature as separate things and so I've been taking refuge these last two weeks in the passing of Tick not Tom the great Buddhist teacher. Jane was playing the funeral ceremonies, which went on for like think like a week as as our background media for much of that time and I've been listening. It's the last few days to lectures from a guy named fun done, who I'm told is the Dharma air Tick not Tom in some brilliant brilliant deeply moving lectures about among other things in nature the self. One title, no birth, no death, which will make a Western mind crazy until you step into it and it's just rich and profound and challenges the default that we all live in of separation. We think that immediately we categorize immediately. We find distinctions immediately, but the one of the images they use is the waves on the ocean and you know the waves crest and you see the crest and identify that as a distinct individual, but the crest rise and fall, and the oceans there. He. He used the teaching device that Tick not Tom uses of a matchbox and ass wears the flame and takes out a match and strikes in an ass wears the flame and close the match out and ass wears the flame. You know, his assertions that the flame is always there just like my dead grandmother is always here. They said well look you know you might say that I'm just imagining it when I say that my dead grandmother is always here. But when I'm talking to you. I don't really know you I'm imagining you also. How do we train our minds and direct our imaginations into more of a sense of connection and mutuality, rather than separation and competition. And I don't think I'm doing it justice but there's just rich, rich stuff there that's been deeply grounding and moving for me. And, and the other place I take refuge in this, you know, in the sense of doom and the, you know what Doug so eloquently talked about at the beginning is that the wonderful story that shows up in many different cultures. The old farmer and the white horse and his young son. And I, you know, Jerry you're naughty I know some of you know the story the beautiful horse lovely son the horse runs away people in the village say that's terrible the farmer said well we'll see. Son goes off to find the horse comes back not just with the horse but with a mare that the horse has found and mated with in the forest and people said you see that's terrific and the farmer says we'll see. And the sun rides the horse and falls and breaks his leg and they say it's terrible and said well we'll see in the czars people come to to draft the young man of the village but he don't take his son because his leg is broken. And that's terrific well we'll see you know the sense that we don't know what the playing out of what the changes is, and that there will be changes upon changes upon changes is a kind of as a kind of solace for me is just kind of you know, reminding me that I don't know how things are going to play out and they look very dark now as imagine they did when you know when Germany rolled into France. You know, and when various other catastrophes have happened and the waves rise and fall so I take some comfort in that on the action side of things. In a in a flurry of enthusiasm about a new venture I've been, as some of you know I've spent most of my career advising large corporates on sustainability strategies and it's a schizophrenic life. Because I'm in the heart of the beast that is part of the problem trying to guide it to somewhat better behavior, working inside to help them make money and working outside to criticize the whole structure of things it's been a schizophrenic game. And what I'm doing now is rather than selling advice, I'm building. I don't know if we're calling it a holding company or hedge fund or private equity company, or what have you, but to go into the world of small and medium size, small and medium size enterprises who don't have sustainability departments and R&D departments and so forth but are building the picks and shovels of the next economy. And by a bunch of small to mid sized companies bring to them all the riches that our networks have. Most obviously around climate and circularity and purpose and transparency and engagement and entrepreneurship and workplace democracy and exit, not by IPO or by selling to a big hedge fund but by selling to a worker owned company. It's psychologically grounded in place, worker owned companies with the background question of what might it be, what might it be like Pete I don't read Chinese sorry. What might it be like to do business and do everything else, as though we belong to the living world. Not being nicer to nature not taking better care of nature but actually belonging to the living world as creatures with all the other creatures in that. So that's kind of the background mood and the actual strategy is to do this private equity for good, then use the tools of finance and apply them for a purpose which is, you know, companies that are sustainable and democratic and owned by their employees and their communities. So that's what I'm up to. We've just started circulating the story to friendly investors in the last couple days of response so far is, is really interested and positive and reinforcing. I've about to pay retainer to a law firm to help structure the thing. Kevin I don't know if you're still on the call Kevin has been a tremendous asset and resource and connecting into networks of people around the country during related things there's, there is a flurry of activity and worker ownership conversions happening in the United States today. There's a phenomenon called the silver tsunami, which is, you know, you know, depending on who you talk to 150 to 180,000 business owners who, you know, look kind of like look more like me and than like Mark and Wendy you know people who are aging out who have founded companies who may not have a family to take over their business may not have a place to sell their business are concerned about legacy. So there's a lot of activity looking at how to how do you create a transition from a one one person owned company to a worker owned company at this point of change where the company could just die, but could be something vital. None of that effort that we're aware of has brought in the climate sustainability dimension so we're trying to marry those sustainability silver tsunami and democratic ownership together. And the best to you all is, you know, first of all, as always any good thinking and good ideas and second, how to apply the various OGM a stuff in support of that venture. Because both at the level of the enterprise themselves but also the networks between them and the networks of networks in the world. There's a lot of juice here. We are going to, we're going to open source the model of what we do. This is not trying to be the, you know, the one hedge fund that rules them all but something that will do probably in place probably in California, but then build a playbook that we can say to anybody take this and run with it and improve it and go from there so I would welcome any, any advice and support about how to do that better smarter faster. More interactively. So that's what I got. Thanks, Dr. McLean may have some advice. Yeah. So would a tapestry for people who have projects and people who have funding be a value. Okay, of course. Right. And so do you see it needing see, I feel like if a tapestry is not as useful. If the connection and the matchmaking should really actually and appropriately go through a one person or group of people. But if there is, if there's an advantage to having people find each other outside of a call or outside of a meeting or outside of a summit, right, or something like that then I think the tapestry can be a normally enormously helpful. And I just one caveat to is that we tend to think about things as transactions right that's the way we're trained right and so I have a need you have an offer let's match these up. And I am interested in that I'm more interested in the connection, which you're also referring to right and the relationship building that can come from it. So let me let me turn my yes into a yes into a yes and for the, for the turnaround fund that we're building probably not so much because that's, you know, that's direct interactions between specific companies and small groups of people and some level of confidentiality needs to have needs to be in place as those things develop until they become public. For the larger network of all the folks in the country working on worker ownership transitions and community based economics and the kind of things that Kevin has been talking about Kevin I'm putting words in your mouth you're still there I think for that kind of network it could be invaluable. And for people to get a sense of momentum and like oh my God this is really happening at a much bigger scale than I realized. And also the level of, well look at what we can learn from each other here's what they learned in Baltimore here's what didn't work in Denver and here's how kind of apply that in St. Louis invaluable. And that's, and that's a great example of the power of decentralization decentralized mechanisms within a shared norm. Yeah and in conjunction with the tapestry. That's our conversations and small groups and particularly with Vincent have gone into okay so what about a way within trove for a community to share resources inside a mini trove right so that they can share success stories share what's not working well what is working well. Here's how it's working for me and then you know you go back to the tapestry to basically create a new figure out who who needs to be in those conversations or who needs to be in those troves. So it sounds like from your perspective and what you just what you just replied with is it both. It's a combination of both that would actually be even more powerful. Yeah, absolutely. And I think the. Let me just let me just say one. First, as I think about, you know, going into a, you know, 60 person manufacturing company and Fresno and trying to do we do. They're going to need a very much more accessible UX than any of the stuff that we're playing with. And it's a criticism because we're developmental here. But, you know, the stuff that we're doing has a pretty high bar of geekiness compared to what, you know, like a late. It has to. And so we've been, you know, one of the things I'm going to need is something that is like, you know, dead, simple, fun, easy, that gets at what you and everybody else is talking about. Of course, that's one of the hurdles, right. And that was one of the hurdles I was trying to overcome when I kind of backed into the tapestry project as a starting point, right. So, because what I'm envisioning is much more complex in the end and needs a UX that I'm being told is really not quite ready yet. So I'm hoping that the tapestry can be something of a, of a in between because we need it sooner. Yeah, I would, I would argue that European Union and, and theory you're presencing Institute everybody pretty much landed on blockchain technology to facilitate that process. You know, because it is a blockchain based token, for example, forces you into a very disciplined process of assigning value. Right. So, so for example, if you shift a farmer into a into a model that repairs his soil, but also impacts water impacts by a biodiversity and things like this. So how do you assign value to these to these multiple factors which then should come together into a value token that is that is based on a statistical model, which says, if you do all these things in five years from now here, you will have achieved regenerative organic certification. You have that token. Now you can go to town I mean now you can go all over the place selling this thing. No and so so I think just using blockchain technology automatically creates the discipline that needs to be a part to the table to to to create the valuations and the metrics we need. Klaus, thank you. You know, we have, we have an intuition that blockchain and dows will be important in this story at some point we don't know what that looks like and then my request to you is, could you send me the the one clearest and most useful piece of writing that you know of that could tell me about Dow and tokens, thousand tokens. I started a conversation in TRC. Okay, because I think we need to put our heads together this is really complex right and they are, I think we need to have a conversation that focuses on just that. Yeah, I need I need a I need a one on one cheat sheet before you have a conversation so if anybody knows if one shoot at my way Jerry what is what is hedge fund give you the shivers. What is private private equity funds hedge funds most of the ones that I know what are those means what does word mean to you, they mean they mean value suck from humanity. Both of those make me like holy shit you really want to start one of those. Now if you created a new category and renamed it I'd be interested, or if you harness the like your question right now about how do we harness these new mechanisms is super interesting but but if you go start a private equity fund like good luck to you go. Yeah, yeah, well you know one of the slides says private equity for good and the and the and the provocation is can we take the tools that those folks that have used to buy companies and strip assets and fire employees and move to Mexico and leave a smoking carcass on the landscape. Bingo. And we use those tools, instead, in the situation of distressed companies with founders leaving that will die, and use those tools to lift value and create enough value to reward us and our investors and the outgoing founder and the new owners who are the workers because we leave them with a model with debt like an LBO that's bullshit. They've got to be positioned to be prosperous and whatever terms that means to them. So, so I think we have to use those words and, and, you know, and and and to get to them in some kind of way. I'm very much open to other terms. And so we have an institution that will buy that will take investment and buy companies and sell companies so what do we call that. Right, exactly. And so, two thoughts that I wanted to add and then I wanted to go back to our queue so we get through as many people as we can. Two things I wanted to add one. I just got reconnected a bit to Jim Fallows and Jim and Deb flew their, their private plane across country recently visited a bunch of small towns wrote a book about that called our towns. And maybe a special on that called our towns and have created the our towns foundation. And they're really, really interested in connecting small towns with what might actually help pull them out of their situations and improve their situations. So I think I think that there's a there's a really interesting marriage of sorts or dating system of sorts between the tapestry that Wendy's painting. Things you'd like to fund get Gil and kind of the opportunities that that Jim and David kind of point to and the community and trust that they're building in these different places because part of what their skill that is showing up somewhere in a tiny airport in the middle of country finding their way into interesting people and conversations and saying hey, you know, how does this work. I think that that a hugely important thing in the next couple electoral cycles is humans showing up across the country across the middle of the country to help and in an actually sincere way, not saying, hey, here's the solution just do this but rather saying, here's what we know here's stories we've heard here's resources we that that we know how to get to how do we help you figure out your way. And then, and then you're in the middle of a huge set of questions that I talk about them as one of the next two stacks. And I'm borrowing here the lamp stack or other software stacks but I'm saying we have a civilization social stack and we have an organizational business stack. They're screwed up they're both of them screwed up right now the civilizational one is turning into a liberal democracy or state in control, and the social stack and the business stack is like, hey, we've just figured out the capitalism is eating the world, and we're trying to replace those narratives. So, hopefully, you and we and everyone will find our way into what probably won't be two stacks I have a funny feeling that nation states, and those boundaries are getting softer, and we're entering some place where maybe there's one stack I don't know but in a hundred years from now they're going to tell the stories about how in these years right now, somebody figured something out, and that became the set of, and either we spiraled wildly out of control and destroyed ourselves. But for a while there we made a lot of profit like that cartoon in the cave. Or we will actually be on some new stacks if you will, and I'm borrowing software stacks on purpose solution stacks on purpose, because so much of this is going to be instantiated as code, and the relationships that we layer on top of the code are more than the code but the code is going to be the carrier the vehicle the transport the platform the scaffolding for all of this. And we have just a little bit of time because we're creeping up on the end of our time here, but I had in the queue, Stuart grace mark Scott me so Stuart why don't you go ahead and let's see where we go. Great, so my mind is kind of exploding in a lot of different ways and and what I'm trying to do is is is collate some some thoughts. Jerry you just you just mentioned relationships on top of the stack of software and that's where I think the key is. And earlier you actually mentioned. Now minds, because that's the key. Both Gill and class you're doing great things, but you're still framing it all in kind of a capitalist thinking process of profit and loss. And I think that that's, that's where the mindsets that we all have just need to change in some way. And I'm not denigrating any of your efforts in any way shape or form as a matter of fact you'll, I want to connect you to my son in law, who's been a McKinsey consultant in private equity for the past 15 years and just in the process of leaving because he's created some new kind of instrument, but I think he, you could learn a lot about the field just by talking to him. The Buddhist references today, absolutely wonderful, because everything gets created in our own minds. And that's what we need to focus on. I'll come back to it in a second but I heard Fernando floor is used the term radical discontinuity about 30 years ago and I think that's what Jerry's kind of pointing to here. My check in today I wanted to just read a poem. And it's one of my, it's one of my poems. And I had a choice, the actual poem for the third of February is is called failure. But I don't want to read that. It's about resilience. Tomorrow's poem is called creating. And, and this is what everyone here is actually doing. And it's really inspirational to hear everybody thinking that now just something about these poems. Very, very quickly. When they first started to emerge out of me which was a surprise. I talked to some people about it and the people. I was told that before there was a written word. It was passed on through iambic pentameter through the through the through the spoken word. And so I'll offer this poem to everyone today. And some reflective questions. Where does your creativity come from. And what's its impact. What are the benefits of innovation and creativity. One other thought that that really applies to everyone here. No seed ever sees the flower. And everybody here is an extraordinary seed. So creating sourced by a drive to create, make a new, no template traveling places never been enduring loneliness within footsteps of advancing age. Harness existential rage. Give to those at your side through bumps and back slide. Longing driving pushing on directions you've never gone victory and impossible dream embrace process and a scheme. No in your hidden recess exploring new is happiness context learning facing east each day. Feast creating growing is the thrust arise from inside, if you trust, follow voices deep inside innovation, how we thrive. Thank you Stuart. Thank you very much that's awesome. Thank you. It's a lovely place. Maybe to end the call I have to, I have to boogie because I have to join a different call unfortunately I'm happy to pass the con to someone. If we would like to keep the call going and the people left who haven't had a chance to check in our grace mark and Scott with my apologies. So I passed the con or should we wrap the call. I'm ready to wrap. I'm here to wrap. Okay who wants to who wants to take us out in rap. Okay, I guess, I guess none of us, which speaks to our lack of diversity actually. So, I thank you all this has been a phenomenal conversation and Stuart if you will, if you have a link to the poem and can share that that'd be fabulous. Yeah, I'll put it I'll put it in the, in the, yeah. Yeah, I'll put it in the playlist either one would be great and we'll we'll curate it. Always love would be like a breakdown of the amount of time that people speak in these calls because some people speak a hell of all longer than others. And that kind of situation is interesting. Is it. And what is that. And I'm not sure is it power is it. What, that's it. Thanks. So, so mark. That's a really good point. And as facilitator host holder of the space, what I some tool I sometimes use but haven't used that often here is hey everybody who's spoken a lot step back. Everybody who hasn't had a chance, you know, to grab them I come in. In this format I'm doing the check in where I try to make it around the room, but but I'm also very intentionally scratching on interesting things it's sort of the, the, the dip the ladle into the into the stream of what everybody's doing and then stir the pot. And so I stirred the pot a lot today on things that brought a bunch of us in intensely. And that turns into an imbalance in the use of airtime, which I'm trying to pay attention to, and it's irritating if you didn't get to check in and I apologize for that. It's an important issue that I'm trying to balance, but I appreciate you're bringing it up. And I'm sorry for frustration it causes. Oh, it's, it's not so much frustration as fascination. I'm fascinated by this phenomenon myself trying to balance it, etc, etc. So, yeah. And my only comment for today I think in response to mark I think is, I've noticed that the check ins. I'm longing for the check ins. And what I'm hearing our responses. And I'm not hearing any check ins. Now, our last speaker Stuart, he had a check in this is something that I did outside of this group. I'm bringing it to you. What I'm hearing is a lot of, I don't know, I'm here to respond to what everyone else is saying as opposed to, I'm bringing you something that I did outside of here. We can also pick up some clues from Quaker meeting where there are messages in Quaker meeting that come out of silence, and you are not supposed to respond to other messages and that's, that's a very particular form of group format. It's a very interesting format, and one that encourages listening without contributing. Right. It's very fascinating, I'll say, it's mystical it's lovely I've had a bunch of really cool experiences and Quaker meeting. In what way is listening not contributing. And without responding to what you, I agree with you completely grace listening is contributing. And were I to listen without contributing. I would not contribute my talking right now. Bye. Thank you for that. And with that we will wrap today's call. Thank you all for being here lots.