 Thank you very much to all of you for Staying or coming for this panel. I am my name is Julia from Holt I'm the director of the rule of law go rule of law and governance program at ASU law school and And located my office is here in the new America building and the program was co-developed with the McCain Institute, so I'm very grateful to all three hosts of this conference and And I'd like to welcome the audience here, and I think there's an audience watching in Arizona So welcome to the audience in Arizona as well. I First of all, I have to say that we are down a panelist. Unfortunately Nancy O'Kale From the Tahrir Center Tahrir Institute for Middle East policy fell ill unfortunately So it will be you'll have we'll hear more about Turkey and Pakistan today, and unfortunately not as much not about Egypt We've had great discussions today about counterterrorism policies in the US and the rule of law in the United States and This discussion is We're going to turn the lens of it instead of talking about the terrorism policies in the US from the US perspective And the rule of law here We're going to talk about countries where terrorism is a more acute threat than it is in the United States and Where the counterterrorism policies of the United States have had a significant impact on counterterrorism and on rule of law We so we'll focus particularly on the effects of these policies on the rule of law in these countries Earlier today, we heard about the use of force overseas and about the light footprint that President Obama has used And the fact that Americans are desensitized To some of the effects of our counterterrorism policies We are lucky enough today to have two speakers who were from countries where people are not at all desensitized And where the footprint does not seem light. I would like to welcome Raza Rumi to my left Who's a scholar in residence at the School of Humanities and Sciences at Ithaca College He's a consulting editor at the Friday Times, which is a weekly journal in Pakistan And was an analyst and talk show host in Pakistan Until he moved to the US following an assassination attempt in 2014, which killed his driver and Dr. Ikan Erdemir is a senior fellow at the foundation for the defense of democracies and a faculty member at Bill Kent University's Department of Political Science and Public Administration From 2011 to 2015. He was a member of the Turkish Parliament And has been here since February. So many thanks to both of you I've been very excited about hosting about moderating this panel because I'm so curious to hear what you both have to say And to give you just a little bit of background. I spent two years in Pakistan working for the US Embassy there working on rule of law issues and Long wanted to meet Raza. So So thank you very much to both of you and Raza. I'll turn to you to kick this off Thank you I was here in the morning as well and you know, it's always good to sort of flip the coin and See how counter-terrorism is perceived and actually, you know implemented and of course I come from a country which has been a huge victim of Terror and An extremist violence, you know more than 60,000 Pakistanis have died in the last decade or so Including the 5,000 security personnel and from, you know, bombs and Suicide bombers roaming around in markets in schools in colleges and hospitals I mean no area of Pakistani life public life has been sort of excluded from that You know, horrific unfolding of violence within our society and of course There is a whole war of narratives within Pakistan As well alongside the actual physical violence I mean there is one school of thought which says that Pakistan was a relatively peaceful place before 9-11 and before the US attempted to actually invaded Afghanistan and The other school of thought says no there the extremist groups are like the Taliban Other jihadist groups existed in Pakistan and Pakistan used them as a tool of foreign policy Both in Afghanistan and India to maximize its Leverage and power so, you know the country and the sort of national narrative is is kind of has been wavering between these two poles of Thinking but since 2014 since we had a huge massacre in a Peshawar school where 140 kids and tatures were killed there has been a shift in public opinion at least and within the military of Doing something because earlier. I think Pakistan security establishment Sort of tolerated the existence of many groups such as the Pakistani branch of Taliban The Afghan Taliban are still very much there and very much supported by us But the Pakistani Taliban which had turned against the Pakistani state and people So the military started a very major operation It is a huge counter-terrorism operation which has been ongoing since June of 2014 and by which some Level of calm has come back 50% of terrorist incidents have gone down but the interesting part of that operation is that a lot of kind of legalese and policy Discourse that the US uses for counter-terrorism has filtered down into Pakistan as well So whether it has to do with the targeted killings whether it has to do with Air strikes over Pakistani people You know it's being done. So Pakistan is really objected to Drone strikes by the US. You know according to New America figures. They have been more than 400 drone strikes in the last 12 years Killing anywhere from between 200 to 350 civilians in in those strikes But other accounts say that this number could be much higher. It could be around 999 the Bureau of investigative journalism says so and But the ironic thing is that Pakistan has also used that Chinese drones to take out some of the quote-unquote terrorists and Similarly, some of the air the fighter jets given by the US to Pakistan military have also been used in the northwestern part to You know get rid of the terrorist groups. So it is this I think at a Much broader level in the post 9-11 world that we now live in. You know this whole discourse on terrorism and the kind of legal Thematics used By the states have converged and it's not just limited to Pakistan I'll give you within South Asia for example in Bangladesh We've seen in the recent year or so rise in violence against bloggers and journalists and atheists and secularists Etc. And a lot of language that is being used by the Bangladeshi government is also this post 9-11 US counter-terrorism language and often which sanctions and which enables the state to crack down on its political opposition on journalists Bangladesh jails are full of opposition party members and All in all being done in the name of countering terrorism if you look at in in India where there's a you know long-standing dispute between Pakistan and India over the state of Jammu and Kashmir and both countries have gone to war twice again. So you see that that that particular Idea of fighting these you know terrorism and and terrorists And I'm not denying that Pakistan has not in the past supported or still supports Some of those militant groups and separatists that Pakistan does But it is the kind of language and the methods that the state adopts is that they are very heavy-handed they often are kind of Oblivious to the imperatives of human rights of the guarantees enshrined in the national constitutions and In in Pakistan as well, you know, they have been forced Desperances there have been many other brutal and heavy-handed tactics employed and all in the name of national security and which renders You know the the entire constitutional and legal rights framework kind of meaningless And it's all and the greatest justification for that is that look the US does it so we can do it as well And the US therefore is kind of a trend tighter Unfortunately, which is something of a worry in this particular domain Thank you very much Let me try by the simple question. Why should we care about Turkey? It's a country of it's a country of 80 million the second largest army in NATO in NATO member Together with Albania the only majority Muslim members of NATO an EU accession country And if I know it's a long shot and it's a name. It's it's a Hail Mary shot But if it works Turkey would be not only the largest but but also the only majority Muslim member of the European Union And moreover, Turkey is already in the EU in the sense that there are more than three million people of Turkish background either as citizens of EU countries or residents of EU countries plus Turkey is now hosting 2.7 million Syrian refugees. So it's a it's a key partner in dealing with the humanitarian crisis in Syria which means it's a country we have to care about whether we like it or not Now let's come to the US end because in the Q&A we'll go into the details of Turkish affairs But I would like to make this relevant to an American audience and the question is US counterterrorism policy What's the view from Turkey? What impact does it have now my first comment is it's all about perceptions It doesn't really matter what you do or don't do It doesn't matter what the the actual result on the ground is Because when we take a look at from the 80 million populist Turkey to US counterterrorism policies it's always about perceptions and It's never direct perceptions because there are cultural barriers. There are linguistic barriers political barriers, so US counterterrorism policy will always be mediated through cultural brokers through intermediaries So it's either people like me who will tell Turkish audiences The Senate the House of Rep the White House State Department all the internal debate, you know reversals or it can be let's say a firebrand preacher saying the great Satan will destroy our country together with Israel so it will always be different versions of the truth now and The selective perception which is also all about selective portrayal of US counterterrorism policy revolves around spins and Around spin masters now What are some of the key spin masters of US counterterrorism policy in Turkey? Whether they're accurate or not, it's up for you to decide one of course is this broad spectrum of Islamists There will be different brands of Islamists who will Portray US counterterrorism policy through the worst cases and use it as Propaganda tool use it as recruitment to second You might be having cordial relations with Vietnam But for Turkey Vietnam war is still going on. So we have a very strong what I call the 68ers And I'm not just talking about the demographic category I'm talking about 18 year olds who are very much the product of 68ers that is turkeys Socialists turkeys anti-american very strong anti-american culture Particularly strong in the left. So they'll also perceive US counterterrorism policies in this very negative light No matter what the third is of course social media a lot of turkeys citizens will Get bits and pieces videos and sound bites and photos fabricated Accurate doesn't matter but people will have access to US counterterrorism policies through social media But overall there is one thing that combines all different Perceptions and portrayals and I would argue that's turkeys national culture of conspiracies Turks love conspiracies turkeys are one of the most conspiratorial maybe next to Pakistan It'll be like India Pakistan cricket game when it comes to Turkey Pakistan conspiracy game But conspiracy will be the rule of the game now Why should this be of importance to a US audience because Ultimately For example turkeys European Union next session is often about best practices about converging to those best practices when it comes to US counterterrorism policy. It's about worst practices. It's how local brokers it's how Local entrepreneurs political entrepreneurs will find the worst practices of US counterterrorism policy to legitimize their own breach of rule of law and undermining of due process and democratic process and Transparency and accountability back at home. So no matter what you do We will pick we will cherry pick we'll find worst practices and those worst practices will be our key legit tool of legitimation and We'll use it as a carte blanche to For example as we do today You know declare state of emergency suspend European Convention on Human Rights undermined rule of law due process detain people without And access to an attorney for now up to 30 days and so on and so forth. So We will legitimize as Turks are extra judicial and extra territorial acts by Blaming it blaming it on the Americans saying see they're doing it in these cases so we can do it back at home Moreover, we'll also use it to strengthen authoritarianism and one-man rule, you know, well, I Know US presidential existential system is nothing like What's happening in Turkey, which is the yurei a parliamentary system, but de facto a one-man rule One man who is trying to push the system toward an executor presidential system, but again you US Worst practices will be the legitimizing tool now what's missing from this portrayal And I think this is something you have to really think about is What are the legal and political challenges in US such as maybe this event itself to US counter-terrorism policy what are some of the reversals because it's never linear in us, you know You have wins and losses you have challenges you have checks and balances You have to the judiciary you have the media you have the non-profits you have activists So I would argue this gets missing To me This is very much a core narrative of the US experience a core aspect of the US experience But your average Turk will never get to hear about that a Turk might hear about the abuses and torture by Americans in an Iraqi prison Turks will hear about Gitmo Turks might hear about drone strikes But Turks will never hear about the other side which could be in fact Very informative and inspiring for Turks. So my question is Counter-terrorism policy when it's done, right? I see it as a public good. I know it's controversial to call it as such meaning Counter-terrorism policy that within the rule of law That deals effectively with terrorism and extremism Delivers benefits to a wide range of actors and countries and nation states And and of course there are always free riders the question is is the US public diplomacy doing its rightful share of responsibility in portraying or Communicating the untold parts of the story meaning I'm not talking about whitewashing a breach of human rights. I'm talking about What parts of US counter-terrorism policy those parts that you see as success and Also those processes within us, you know challenges legal political challenges reversals Social activism. Would you like to communicate? to others as an inspiration as a best practice to counterbalance the worst practices, so Let me try to conclude by for now by saying that From the Turkish perspective US counter-terrorism policy is often used and abused to deepen our culture of impunity to undermine Turkey's rule of law and due process Again to strengthen authoritarianism and one man rule and it's always a key ingredient in Turkey's Scapegoating strategies, you know, we love lumping together. You know, I we just we were just talking about how India Israel and US are always the key kind of suspects in Pakistan Trinity in the Turkish case that will always be US Strangely enough Germany and of course Israel now Turkey has a normalization process with Israel So the pro-government media is downplaying that aspect, but I'm sure it will make a comeback So it always does so we have our own unholy trinity. So Now let me end with a caveat then first of all Those in Turkey who complain about Let's say the shortcomings or the abuses of the US counter-terrorism policy Trust me. They use the same tactics and they'll abuse it even to a greater extent So there's nothing genuine about the criticism. It's just a propaganda to second All of these preceded 9-11 So please don't attribute to yourself a great Cozal role in the way in which things happen in the world Whether or not there was no 9-11 no subsequent US counter-terrorism policy We have already perfected back at home the art of torture extrajudicial executions and disappearances Across border operations often with civilian casualties breach of rule of law and due process Long and when I say long up to 10 years of pretrial detention Sure are Islamists or our Socialists or our conspiratorial-minded loonies could point the finger to the US but after all Probably even before you could start to Imagine some of these tactics in response to 9-11 I'm pretty sure both in Pakistan and in Turkey. We were Quite an expert in the ways in which we were tormenting our own citizens across the board and The conspiracy theories and the scapegoating Were all already there Sure post 9-11. We added another chapter to our book of conspiracies But the the volume was there. It was whatever a 12th volume Encyclopedia and post 9-11 counter-terrorism policy is just an addendum. So that's my kind of a little pessimistic and And cynical take on the issue, but we'll go more into the detail with the Q&A Thanks to both of you I will start off with some questions and then open it up to the audience and Icon finished with something that was my first question. So I'll ask it of Raza Whether US policy after 9-11 or since 9-11 led to a change in course or was the country on this trajectory? anyway, there's using and the counter counter-terrorism narrative to stifle legitimate opposition to repress or to not adhere to the rule of law and and I guess I'll also ask you icon and Adding to the end of what you said has has the fact that US counter-terrorism policy Since 9-11 has engaged in some of these Has engaged in torture and and some other acts that that I think Americans would say or not of their values Has that changed anything for the opposition in Turkey for people who are trying to enforce or promote the rule of law? Yeah, I think it did You know the US sort of intervention in Afghanistan and Pakistan's decision to ally with the United States Obviously altered the course because prior to that the as we know Taliban were ruling Afghanistan Pakistan had backed them Pakistan was comfortable because you see the problem that we have and that is the complexity of the of the local saturation which often gets lost in the policy making process in Washington is the fact that you know Pakistan's Objectives in that region are are linked to India So it did not want India to have any influence in Afghanistan in the first place So it kept on supporting the Mujahideen first and then the Taliban government and then 9-11 was a very difficult moment because here General Musharraf had to When president Bush told him either you are with us or against us So he had to take one side and obviously he had to be with with the US So there was little room for to serve for for Wiggle there, but Once he did that so then Pakistan moved away from that official policy and was in a kind of an existential Dilemma as to how to deal with all these Mujahideen for since the Soviet anti-Soviet war in Afghanistan and what to do with these groups. So so initially Pakistan did try to Rend them in you know and but the problem was that all of the Taliban Fighters and the leaders and different tears. They started pouring into Pakistan into and particularly into the Pakistan sort of Tribal areas which Unfortunately are also kept on semi-governed or totally I mean To be precise Ungoverned because there are no modern institutions. There are no courts. There's no police. There's no proper rule of law in that area So it's since the time of the British Empire in in India that that was a kind of an open space, you know Legally opaque zone and so it suited both Pakistan's strategic ends as well as perhaps the Taliban leadership to be in that zone somewhere and that led to I mean that led to a lot of pressure within Pakistan and within You know the growth of this militancy and then as we know the Al-Qaeda also moved after Afghanistan was being heavily bombed and In in in that particular time Al-Qaeda also had not just been laden I mean here been laden as the face or the symbolic Aspect but the Al-Qaeda as a network moved into Pakistan and then they made alliances with local militant groups Which had existed pre-9-11 and that turned into a by by middle of You know 2005 2006 it was a major challenge for Pakistan and that's when the Incidents in terrorism started growing huge and then there was this as you know Was very eloquently put by the perception issue as well because you see There was an element within Pakistani state which was not very happy With the idea of abandoning the Taliban whom we had nurtured or or entered into alliances So they kept on using the the worst practices You know the the bombings on hospitals or the civilian casualties, etc. By the United States as an excuse to a Delegitimize the whole thing and then there was a very popular narrative saying this is not our war i.e. the counter-terrorism war It's an America It's an American led war. It's it's America's war. Why should we? be be Hurt in the crossfire, so so I think that's that kind of complexity in the US counter-terrorism policy is often Over you know overlooked. I'll quickly conclude I know I'm taking more time than perhaps you ever envisioned for me in this question But you know look at the Iraq policy for example I mean now everybody there's a consensus here in the US that Iraq was wrong Even mr. Trump doesn't want to acknowledge that he supported Iraq war So bad it is the New York Times which kind of fully supported You know go ahead and bomb Iraq because they have weapons of mass destruction. It has also apologized, okay? And the unintended consequences of that war and that invasion Not just that that there was a sectarian genie came out of the bottle in Iraq and which led to you know Events led to the formation of ISIS which is now a new I'm sure the next Administration with will be dealing how to deal with ISIS, you know first it was how to deal with Al Qaeda first It was how to deal with some of the Soviets So there's a there's a constant either either it is that there There are gaps in the policy-making process which overlook the local complexities and What has happened with the invasion of Iraq that Iran's influence has quadrupled perhaps, you know if not more now Iran has another country of under its affair of of influence and I know that in DC and because I was here for a year with different think tanks that there are lots of Iran fobs And the question is that on the one hand there is this whole narrative or Iran this evil Theocratic government with you know making nukes and on the other hand they are being supported by us his own policy So I think those particular gaps in and the and and the oversimplification of the local context is perhaps a key challenge to the counterterrorism to Trajectory and I think that's where in in Pakistan for example people say and particularly when US wants to invest in the rule of law programs In Afghanistan as well and a lot of local people ask Well is the US adhering to rule rule rule of law itself the kind of rule of law it wants to build in our countries So that's an often question raised in the local media And I think that that particular gap again has to do with the perceptions It's it's it's overtaken by the low donies and that also needs to be managed alongside some very hardcore decisions that the US policy industry makes Which part of that question shall I focus on? Now I Guess you US policy as I said even before 9 11 even before 9 11 At Turkish politicians radicals terrorists arsenal we had a wide range of discursive tools available to Propagate legitimize Their ideas as well as to recruits militants so US policy Post 9 11 policy hasn't necessarily been decisive in that regard, but in terms of opposition Capabilities, I think it has had an impact like a greater impact that is What have you lost either as democratically-minded opposition parties or as activists Ingeo activists is that first of all Losing what I would roughly call the moral high ground of transatlantic values Now now I know in this realist age. There is little room for values But I argue that values are a very effective weapon again Sorry for putting it that way, but I sincerely believe in it And when you undermine the the moral high ground of Rule of law do you process pluralism democracy, you know inclusiveness Transparency accountability all the set of values that I would argue set our transatlantic alliance apart from others Then it's it's a tough job first of all and and Second, you know, especially for those of us who have always tried to argue With Turkish people that NATO is not just the military alliance. It's first and foremost a political alliance It's not an alliance of tanks and fighter jets. It's an alliance of values and when you lose that on Both ends Meaning on the Turkish and also on the NATO end through short-sightedness through introversion Through lethargy same with the European Union, you know, the European Union and it's a key community and it's Copenhagen criteria as well as the Council of Europe and its European Court of Human Rights and European Convention on Human Rights all of these Have been and could have continued to be important resources for Opposition for citizens for activists to strengthen the rule of law first of all second to improve the ways in which citizens are Incorporated are included in the polity and thereby I would argue undermine a lot of the the terrorist recruitment tools Have been eroding We're losing these tools. We're losing this these opportunities we're losing these the efficacy of these values and I think that has been a key challenge because the moment we start criticizing let's say Turkish government abuse of rights and breach of rights and freedoms they'll immediately will find a worse practice Either from the US or from the EU and interesting enough, they'll never find it from China or Russia They'll always find and in fact in China and Russia they can easily find even the worst practices But no, they will always find that one French practice that one British practice that one US practice Which could be temporary doesn't matter But it will have this magic effect of shutting the opposition up and and I think that's something We have to think about meaning when in the West we take extraordinary measures Of course, there's always the questions of efficacy, you know, does it really deliver results? and the second question is By undermining our own moral high ground and by undermining our own transatlantic values And I know in this, you know, multicultural age One can't see this to be quite ethnocentric and one can say that it's all relative and we should drop this reference to transatlantic values But hey coming from Turkey from the very east of this alliance You know what? This is the culmination of thousands of years of human struggle Intellectual endeavor and I'm sorry. I'm not willing to drop human rights free markets democracy Transparency accountability and so on and so forth you can find billions of Demagogues from Turkey to China who will tell you that oh, it's all relative. I've heard officials tell me human rights You know, even the concept of human is different in our country than the West, you know people will argue Adnozium about how everything is relative and there can be no values. I'm sorry. I don't get it Neither do the religious minorities. I advocate for get it nor the LGBTQ community Nor Turkey's Kurds nor Turkey's urban poor. Guess what people who are on the The suffering end of this they get transatlantic values very well They know what they want. They know they want rights and freedoms. They know that the English word human rights is the exact same word in Sanhaklere in Turkish and to them there is no cultural relativism Sure, if you're a member of the Communist Party in China, if you are a member of President Adon's inner core in Turkey. Yes, cultural relativism will be extremely attractive But for the people who have been losing their lives and livelihoods and their languages and culture and religious freedoms we have one set of What I would consider positive set of rights and freedoms and values and it's very important to cherish it in the countries where Those ideas have flourished for hundreds of years Thank you. So on on a related topic Oftentimes when The US government is pushed to speak out in favor of human rights and the rule of law To authoritarian governments that are close partners in the in counter-terrorism The the reaction is well, we can't do that because then the country will turn to China and Pakistan's all-weather friend Or to Russia in the case of Turkey or to others what? What would you what's your reaction to that is Would it actually have a positive effect? I'm not optimistic that that a new US president the next US president will do this strongly But what would your be act? What would your reaction be or what would your recommendation be on that front? You want me to okay? Well, I mean I'll I'll limit the response to the context of Pakistan although I can I have other ideas, too but I mean the problem again, you know and Sadly Is with the kind of way the US security interests have always overlooked the inner Dynamics of a country so take the case of Pakistan all three military dictators were Frontline allies of the US government in the 1960s when there was a Cold War going on So Pakistan was again in the Alliance then came the 1980s when the Soviets had to be driven out of Afghanistan We had the worst dictator in Pakistan who who Islamized the country who abused human rights who who passed this these medieval barbaric laws But he was the US ally until until he died in a plane crash and then came Musharraf moment and the war on terror so I think a key problem there has been that I suppose when it comes to kind of Formulation of security policy. I mean and fair enough. I don't blame the US for that because I mean if they have to go and get something done They'll they better get it done from the institution that they delivers But it has harmful long-term effects. So in the case of Pakistan democratization You know whatever has Happened in the domestic sense But I think with the US support to these military regimes brutal military regimes has had a very adverse impact on the The trajectory of the country and I think for the next administration coming back to the last part of your question I think that is an imperative and I think if it is the Secretary Clinton is going to win She understands Pakistan very well And she also knows the value and she tried very hard as Secretary of State to support the civilian government in Pakistan and push the the limits of Civilian assistance and I think that is what perhaps Would be of a more durable. It is more painful. It is long-term It does not show immediate results But that is the kind of support that I would think Should be forthcoming from the US I mean, you know this over reliance on the military aid over reliance on the sick on the short-term security goals Has not really led to a kind of a society That or a country that perhaps can be peace with itself and with its neighbors and I think Investments in civil society education I think one of the greatest Examples of a good thing that the US did and there was a very small grant. I think ten million dollars in the 80s to a Pakistan's best-known private university in the war now and the seed money went from the US Nobody really talks about it You know we hear about F-16 and this jet and that bomb and this Daisy Cutter or not And you don't actually think of the long-term impact that university has had on Pakistan Which actually came through with us? Support and I think it's those kind of investments Which would be far more helpful and and and related to this I think it there's also a lesson for the counter-terrorism Policies of the US in the last 16 years. I mean has the al-Qaeda been defeated? Well, yes and no it has been defeated in point a but has moved to CDE has the Islamic extremism Been wiped off from the planet of no it has Remerged in the form of new avatars. Okay has the Middle East stabilized. Well, not really So I think there are a couple of lessons to be learned here And I think the lesson that the key lesson is that knee-jerk ill-designed military campaigns are no alternative to long-term Partnerships and investments with Muslim societies and with the civil society there in you know You have people like I can and you know There are thousands and millions like like him in in in the fore called Muslim world And those are the kind of alliances that the US needs to forge but unfortunately what we have seen Here I mean since I'm here So, you know the the kind of xenophobia and Islamophobia that is being drummed by a certain political party and its campaign And and its campaign is actually going to be damaging to the US counter-terrorism efforts, you know Let me be very clear. So it is not as simple I mean, I know it sounds funny for sound bites and social media click baits that mr. Trump said this or why Zed but in effect all of those those things are used by the terrorist recruiters You know though the statements against Muslims or whether it is about, you know Hint of a war crime is actually a very very clever ploy And it is used by the jihadists and the other Extremist groups to to get more people under under the jihad belt So I think it's an ideological issue and I and if it is and as put by icon on the charts Atlantic or whatever you want to call it post enlightenment post renaissance values, whatever a term you want to use it I think that is where it is it is that kind of a battle that needs to be support where you have reformist Muslims and reformist groups and where you have a Kind of a transatlantic core of a value I think that is where partnerships need need to evolve to to better fight error and and of course within a very robust rule of law framework You can't be violating rule of law and preaching it in some other countries Now let me start with my own bias. I'm I always preach against appeasement. It's my chamberlain complex So my first rule of thumb for the next president would be do not appease Now I understand this that this doesn't mean this engage But we have to realize that there are other ways of engaging than appeasing and I would argue most of the bilateral relations So far revolved around some sort of appeasement and I would argue that it has made things worse You know, I understand your question It's an important question meaning if you don't appease Turkey could it drift toward Russia? Could it drift toward Eurasian Alliance? What I don't calls it, you know a Shanghai corporation organization But I I would argue paradoxically that it's because the US is appease Turkey Not Turkey, but Erdogan that actually Turkey drifted away from the NATO and the EU It's because the EU and the US have failed to engage have failed to Build a principled engagement with Turkey early on that we are now in this mess and and we see Natoes kind of, you know southeast flank country drifting away You know Turkey tried to pick procure a China Chinese missile system And now it's trying to procure a Russian kind of long-range air to you know a surface-to-air Missile system and of course and Turkey has plans to plug it into the NATO mainframe You know Possibly leaking all sorts of NATO secrets to China or Russia and of course these are issues We should be concerned about but these are problems Not off-year 2016 or 2014 these were disasters in the making, you know It was clear that I'm talking about a lot of missed windows of Opportunities whether it's Turkey's EU membership Process which could have been handled much differently or whether Turkey's descent into authoritarianism Which could have been dealt there differently or whether it was the US is naive Assumption that kind of a Moderately Islamist Populist governments could be the formula for transition to some sort of democracy In the region, so I would argue that When we take a look at concrete examples, we see that appeasement rarely works in the Middle East and Often countries that manage to get their relations back on track are countries That have what I call a Bronx attitude a tough attitude just to give you an example just the just After Turkey's July 15th abortive Kuwaita President Erdogan met President Putin in St. Petersburg and Erdogan addresses counterparts with whom he was on the verge of a war Until two months before that meeting he called him in an almost archaic Ottoman embellished Turkish My very dear friend Putin Now how did that love affair how that bromance came about? Because Putin has been treating him horribly threatening him with use of force Bringing his armies. He showed him that he too is a thug and he's willing to engage So respect is very important. I would argue in the Middle East that is this tough attitude meaning this engagement Whether we like the attitude or not it means something if and Same with Turkish-Israel relations since the flotilla event There has been horrible rhetoric on both sides very tough post string on both sides which allowed normalization Please check Turkey's pro-government media today. There is not a word against Israel or Russia Please check Turkey's pro-government media today Every single day there are smear campaigns against the US and the EU Because Turkish government has zero respect for the European Union and the United States. Why those are the two entities Who that feel that they have to appease Turkey? We will force you to appease us But if you fall into the trap of appeasing us, we will hate you We will not respect you and we will trash you but if you treat us like Putin did with you know planes and missiles and proxy wars and Really strong language will address you my very dear friend Putin. I know it's it's very strange post string It's very difficult to get But ultimately we have to realize that We have members of this transatlantic community that have diametrically opposite communicative Strategies, and I think mastering those strategies should be key to the next US president's way of dealing with these what I would call idiosyncratic leaders and political cultures That I will open it up to questions from the audience See one in the back on the aisle Talking about how counterterrorism efforts can affect the local communities as we see a shift Towards counterterrorism efforts taking place within the US to combat nationalist terrorism like we saw In Kansas this past week. How do you think that this will change counterterrorism policies when they're being Executed against US citizens who the Bill of Rights and our full constitution applies to I'm sorry. I don't It was a little bit hard to hear you. It's yeah, can you say it again? And specifically I got the sense that you're asking a domestic us Question, which I don't know if these speakers are When talking about how counterterrorism policies can affect a local population When we move that now back to the US in the wake of recent Developments with domestic terror. Do you think that the way that counterterrorism affects the local population? Will change within the United States when we're working with US citizens who have a full Constitution and Bill of Rights on their side If you if you feel equipped to answer that having been Maybe this I guess for the cultural brokers that I mentioned meet people Who take a look at what's happening in the US and who then portrayed to their own society for political gain? This will just give them yet another opportunity to tell see even in the US when there is such a threat even if it's not from Muslims and even if it's Coming from white Christians and that's the only categories Turks would know See they're still tough which means We also have a right to be tough on our own citizens Turkish or Kurdish Muslim or non-Muslim It doesn't make a difference. So I think probably most people will miss it all together There will be very little traction back in Turkey Concerning what's going on with let's say a homegrown US terrorism But my assumption is the few cultural brokers who are interested in using that as an opportunity to make a point at home will probably Use it for the most part to simply back up kind of all sorts of tough action Against citizens back at home With I kind of here and I think that's the kind of you know in the in the sort of game of perceptions that it does Leave a very Sort of big question mark and in particular the police violence Police-related violence in the US is already being cited in a lot of countries with all these shootings and of unarmed unarmed young African Americans and I think that's always used by a lot of Opponents of the US saying well, you know in your domestic arena, you can't really ensure justice What are you telling us about justice and law? Our question in the blue shirt right on the aisle Hi Kevin Reister currently intern at Human Rights first. I have a question on Turkey How how do does the how do local populations perceive the fact that it's providing logistical support in the fight against ISIS and second How do you think the recent coup attempt? Has impacted US-Turkey relations because I know there were some conspirational accusations about how the US may have been involved They believe in it sort of conspiracy now Turkey's support for Let's call it jihadism is Islamist radicals across the board There are two takes one at one is This is a new game for the Turkish government meaning Turkey is located in in a part of the world Where there are other regimes with great expertise in state sponsoring of terrorism as well as proxy wars And Turkey for good or bad until quite recently were illiterate in these affairs meaning Turkey has no real experience with fighting proxy wars Unlike Iran or Syria and had very little experience with sponsoring of let's say terrorists or you know radicals You know violent extremists Syria change all that you know Turkish government turkeys Islamist rooted justice and development party Had the mistaken assumption that there can be quick regime change in Syria And they also had the mistaken assumption that with a little backing to jihadists of different sorts Including al-Nusra front some other al-Qaeda affiliates, maybe some ISIS militants They thought maybe the Assad regime could be gun and we know for a fact that they had three months of A calendar in mind, so this is how ill-informed they they were and they thought after three months a Lesson they didn't learn from Pakistan which they should have they thought they could push the button Stop jihadi violence and handpower over to Muslim Brotherhood in Syria None of that was accurate and it failed miserably and and so today Turkey is left with What we call Pakistanization that is? Turkey Tries to disengage in fact even fight some of these jihadi forces But sorry, we've warned them when I was in parliament. We kept on warning them when I was in parliament I pushed for Turkey to designate al-Nusra front as a terrorist organization Ultimately Turkey came there, but it was too late meaning turkeys beyond the point of no return So the thing the damage has already been done So at the state level our engagement with jihadis of different sorts Was a huge mistake and it will continue to haunt us in the decades to come, but then there is a second aspect and that is Citizens are extremely tactical when it comes to extremism For example for most of Turkey's ethnic Turkish citizens If you put ISIS if the juxtaposed ISIS and the pkk turkeys Kurdish separatist Organization they'll say you know what let the ISIS kill the Kurds so People are extremely pragmatic And this pragmatism is not just at the level of let's say citizens But also even at the level of I would argue political elite. So there is that problem there Now coming back to your second question about very quickly turkish-us relations I know this sounds like a new episode of Star Wars, but it's it's a saga basically two-thirds of turks believe that single-handedly a religious community called the gulen community headed by a a reclusive cleric in self-exile self-imposed exile in Pennsylvania masterminded the coup and This was also carried out in collaboration with the CIA and the Americans and This was part of a global conspiracy to undermine Turkey because Turkey is rising up in the world to be the leader of the Islamic world And this is an attempt to prevent our the the return of our caliph sultan Now of course like every other conspiracy theory there are bits and pieces that are accurate and bits and pieces that are exaggerated that is Sure when we take a look at the coup attempt among the coup plotters there were significant numbers of either members or sympathizers of the gulen community And But we also know that there were people Coup plotters who had nothing or little to do with the community. So still we don't fully know the full extent of the The factions that came together Before and during the coup But I would argue today Turkish public is very little appetite for this very complex question I call it a dirty family secret meaning we all know I think by this point that if we Really have a serious inquiry into the coup attempt very ugly details about our Very private affairs including our military our secret service our parliament our political parties our bureaucrats They'll spill and we don't want this dirty laundry and we have a very convenient truth. That is why don't we take one of the key cores of the coup plotters that is the gulen community and Conveniently all across the board a lot of Turks hate the gulen community because they were victimized or they believe They were victimized by the gulen community early on Kurds Turkish nationalists Turkish secularists and Former allies are the one supporter. So they all believe you know what we all hate the gulen community and they have grievances So they say why don't we just? put all the blame on the gulen community which saves us from the The problem of dealing with the the other aspects of the coup For example, it's it's very rare for people like me of secular background to say that Wait a minute sure the gulen community is implicated in the coup But this is not the first coup. We've had we had 60 the failed 60 to 63 70 80 71 80 97 2007 so it's a long history of coups And I would like to say wait a minute. Don't we have to think about Turkey's military culture? Don't we need to think about civilian military relations. Don't we need to think about? impunity culture of impunity very few if ever of the officers who succeeded or failed in a coup have ever appeared in Before a court of law in Turkey or have been jailed in in Turkey. So to me There are these other issues which we should discuss alongside which factions were behind the coup But we don't which means because we won't talk about the real issues Around military coups over the last 56 years We will talk about the US and the CIA and we will talk about only one of the factions of the coup I know it's a very complicated topic, but this was the the shortest and the fastest way to make it Intelligible so if we talk about the US you can take it simply as our attempt to avoid talking about Painful issues. We don't want to talk about it and we won't talk about it. So we'll point the finger to you Here in front. Can you know? I just want to add that, you know, you talked about discourses So Gulen is in Turkish official media is know is is labeled as a terrorist and the Gulenists are terrorists The Gulen community was on good terms with Erdogan as key allies and when they were very influential in the judiciary and the police and going after the secular military They also Arrested the former chief of staff and imagine as a terrorist So it's a common Turkish tactic We will if you want to get rid of you, we will find a pretense to frame you as a terrorist You can be a cleric. You can be a chief of staff You can be the president of the procurator the leader of the procured ish party We will find a way to frame you as a terrorist and we'll go after you with a vengeance knowing Pretty well that in a decade or so the tables will be turned and you'll come after me with the same tactics, but I guess It's a pendulum. Yeah Thank you so much for for talking with us. It's an incredibly interesting discussion. I was particularly Sorry, my name is Anne Peacock. I work at this Department of State I'm curious in terms of your recommendations for the next incoming administration on other ways of engaging and the non-impease that we should not appease and Specifically toward that question I wanted to understand more what you what you thought your role of multi regional Multilateral institutions like the Council of Europe which houses, you know shared normative frameworks on human rights Democracy rule of law and which Turkey is a member of, you know What is the perception of the Council of Europe in Turkey? And how are these recent trips by the Secretary General the Venice Commission the Human Rights Commissioner of This institution You know, what is what are the promise what what could potentially be the benefits of those trips? if if used appropriately by the international community and you know following that, you know Is the u.s. Utilizing these institutions in a constructive way To that end thank you so much Yeah, let me start with my bias. I'm a true believer in these multilateral and some of them supranational institutions I Used to serve in the Turkey European Union joint parliamentary committee and in the meetings I used to joke that I'm the last Euro-Federalist including all the members of the European Parliament in the room because everyone has given up on the European ideal I haven't I'm still a true believer in Euro-Federalism, and I think we're not really using the opportunities provided by these now The question is of course where I think the u.s. Is underutilizing it in fact or utilizing it even in an extremely limited way so there is a a great Ocean of opportunities out there. I know with each day that passes Each day that these institutions undermine themselves Whether it's the Brexit where whether it's your skeptic Europeans Or whether it's I guess Institutions that don't that that don't enforce their own decisions The the room for maneuver narrows, but still there is so much. I think room for action although it's shrinking And again on maybe on a skeptical note I remember a talk by a professor of international relations back in Turkey And I realized he confused Council of Europe with the the the European Council of the the European Union Which also should be a caveat for us meaning for those of us who are very engaged with these institutions They are a great resource Not only those even for example for someone like me who I've done a lot of advocacy work for religious minorities each time the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom Releases its annual report. I would find it as a great resource and I would use it for my advocacy work back at So people who for the small minority of people who are very interested in these institutions and in their outputs Sure, they're a great resource, but at the same time the caveat is this there are also a lot of other people that There are millions of others Who don't even know the difference they can be professors, but who don't even know the or who can get confused about the difference Between these institutions, so I think that maybe the key challenge is this How do we make sure first of all? How do we make sure that we use the potential that's out there as policy makers as let's say State Department officials? Second, how do we find user-friendly ways of making these things intelligible? Venice Commission, you know immediately to me it makes a lot of sense because I see it as a key resource for discussing Turkey's next constitution or discussing Turkey's World records bearing 10% electoral threshold for parliamentary immunity issue but Venice Commission If you just say it out loud 75 million Turks out of 80 million will think we're trying to sell them a tour to Italy So the question is what are some of the key? communicative strategies We have to find and I think This is not just the PR aspect that I'm talking about because ultimately I think we are failing often at the level of Strategic communication. That's why one of three One of the reasons why I refer to public diplomacy. I think there's a lot of room for Action and improvement in terms of public diplomacy and strategic communication and One best practice I can recommend Is authoritarian dictators? They are masterminds of strategic communication and public diplomacy because a lot of the the horrible corruption Breach of rights and freedoms This respect for others What keeps that system going? I think very able capable spinning and manipulation and propaganda I know you don't call it propaganda in our part of the world, but let's say Hence I think we you know, we have something to learn from them. I'm not saying using those vile tactics, but I'm saying We can't just say that you know what our content is good. Let the people understand Why it's good. No, we have to make them intelligible and when I say make them intelligible in Turkey I'm talking about a population Health of which is under 30. So we have to find a young medium a young parlance a Population that is on the average 6.5 years of schooling. So we have to quote-unquote dumb it down so that a country of 80 million with 6.5 years of average schooling can get it third Often a monolingual society, you know people who are not well-versed in other languages not only languages, but who are not well-versed in Multiculturalism and pluralism again making it culturally appropriate How can we get this message across and I think it takes a lot of a lot of creative work All the way in the back Hi, my name is Andrea Hall. I'm with the charity and security network When we talk about local effects of counterterrorism policy We need to mention the fact that the material support statute and other aspects of US counterterrorism Laws and policies restrain the ability of nonprofits to work in terrorist controlled areas overseas And this in turn creates a humanitarian vacuum It restrains the ability of peace-building groups to go into these areas and the irony is that That in turn creates an environment ripe for terrorist recruitment I was wondering if any of you would want to comment on this apparent irony and How you think this might play out in the next administration? I'll actually add something to that. I know in Pakistan and I'm less familiar in Turkey There's an NGO law that's been quite controversial among the diplomatic community because it has been used to throw out at least one humanitarian group and Has been seen as a way as many as NGO laws in a lot of countries are to reduce the space for Opposition for NGOs to for civil society organizations So not just because of material support, but because of an NGO law And I think that the Turkish government has been rather effective in shutting down The space for for NGOs and opposition voices to be heard. So maybe add that to the question Yeah, I think About the irony, of course, I mean I agree with you. It's a kind of a vicious cycle but on the on Pakistan's humanitarian law, I mean, you know There is paranoia within Pakistani state that a lot of NGOs are actually working for foreign intelligence agencies and We used to sort of counter that as a propaganda game, but partly Unfortunately, the US also gave a very good reason for the Pakistani media and the state in the form of Using a non-profit to go and collect immunize it, you know, blood samples DNA for for DNA verification of bin Laden and his family in Abbottabad in Pakistan and For many so there was a big crisis because then that NGO had to shut down. It's its staffers left and it had a an adverse impact on other foreign Non-profits as well and continues, you know, that that's a very tricky legacy Unfortunately, and I think that again takes us back to the issue of transparency and the issue of how how these operations and how these sort of strategies are carved out and and how Unthinking they are at times because they put at risk not just the lives and the operations of US or Western based charities or NGOs, but they also create the kind of conditions that was highlighted by you and They also in the Pakistan case put at risk public health because that's one of the reasons that polio has been has become endemic there because the Pakistani People who are nurses and doctors who are going out to immunize people in the tribal areas have been shot Have been attacked by terrorists because of this. Yeah, at least that's the reason that's given Yeah, the Taliban banned polio Immunization for a long time which led led to resurgence of the virus after we had sort of Tackled it and now it has taken last four or five years of very hard work to overcome that and part of it Was linked to that that they were thinking that a lot of these immunization or health workers were actually, you know Spies in disguise Let me try to think Outlawed about this. I think what we are seeing increasingly in the Middle East is Failed states or semi failed states which then lead to Territories not receiving state services, which then leaves room for on the one hand extremists So either deliver services or control territories and on the other hand NGOs to try to alleviate the humanitarian crisis now It seems there are always double standards on the state side For example, when we take a look at Syria in Iraq Sure, there will be certain for example Turkish state sanction NGOs That will be seen as doing some proxy work for Turkey Who will be funded encouraged? Facilitated for their work across the border in these let's say Failed state areas, but then there will be other NGOs Often independent often dissident run Often focusing on areas whether it's Kurdish rights, whether it's women's rights, whether it's lgbtq rights Or whether it's let's say it's secular non Islamist NGO Which will be subject to restrictions and when I say restrictions, it's not just you know travel or Transparency funds or delivery of services, but even in for example in the case of Turkey Concerning the Kurdish enclave Rojava A lot of the Turkish activists and some of them are not just you know peaceful actors But also people taking up arms against ISIS If and when they die They have a huge problem Repatriating the body back to Turkey. So now there is a category of Turkish citizens Who have died across the border? Let's say doing nonprofit work But I'm defining nonprofit in a very general way here. It could mean Someone fighting against the against ISIS Out of solidarity with Kurds to someone delivering healthcare to children They they might end up getting stuck at the border zone that there was a A body that was repatriated with the family only after 60 days because the Turkish state blocked the re-entry of this deceased person's body, so Again coming back to my double standards issue states can be either enabling or restricting NGO work in in these territories and Often there are security considerations or strategic considerations attached to them but ultimately I think the effect is It makes things more tricky for NGOs and NGO work as Raza said one part of The difficulty around the NGO work is all these as we see in Russia in Pakistan in Turkey all these Associations, you know NGOs are a fifth column in Turkey. It would be US or Germany to begin with maybe Britain so key suspects would be these and But at the same time because NGOs are now increasingly part of the proxy wars and proxy state involvement in these failed state territories Beyond the Let's say the pre 9-11 Neocolonial new imperial conspiratorial fantasies that are now new sets of paranoias or suspicions attached to the NGOs, so I guess Things are getting more difficult than ever yet Yes, but I would just quickly add that there's a problem with INGOs as well and we again have to move back to the framework of Accountability and transparency a lot of INGOs do not Often make their operations and accounts transparent to the host governments, so I think there's a there's a bit of a problem there, too And we have time for one last question someone over here The mic is coming Hi, my name is Nihal Krishna. I'm a political reporter in town with that with circun use So my question is both, you know Islam is one of the major religions in both Turkey and Pakistan and I'm with a number of Terrorist organizations supposedly affiliated with Islam in the past 10 or 15 years conducting Terror strikes. I'm curious to know What your thoughts on how? Muslim communities are accepted in in other parts of the world in Asia Europe and in America and whether there exists Sincere forms of Islamophobia or not and particularly contrasting Potential Islamophobia in in Asia to Europe to America So how do you feel equipped to answer that's a bit off topic, but if you want to answer it, I Mean, I can just say I don't know about Europe. I have but I mean I've been here for the last two years and I do think that a lot of Islamophobia has Been generated in part by the political discourse and in part By the mainstream media and I think they are mainstream media plays a very toxic role in that unfortunately But the good thing is that the independent media kind of offsets in the in the United States and the mainstream media is labeling It's inquiry. It's headlines. It's emphasis. So for instance, you know Hundred and about a hundred people. I mean for every American who has died at at the hands of Islamic terror or terror since 9-11 Hundred people have died due to gun violence But this sort of emphasis is missing what terrorism gets the headline Gets the in-depth focus, but the key large elephant in the room which we just to do with guns and even even Secretary Clinton's Prescription of handling that is is is is is very problematic because if you can't fly on the planes You must not hold guns. I mean who doesn't fly on the planes. I mean take a wild guess, you know So obviously it's a Muslim name, which would be stopped or checked for security since 9-11. I mean Others are not really under that much scrutiny. So I think I think there is a there's a whole systemic sort of effort And that and unfortunately it is again again linked to the count the set of counterterrorism Policies and and the diagnosis that goes along with that I'm not denying that there is a that there are very dangerous violent extremist groups in the Middle East and in Pakistan and Afghanistan in other parts who who recruit people who believe in a transnational you know poisonous ideology and but the Mothership of all of that is a country that is still an ally of the US Which is known as Saudi Arabia and Wahhabism cult and its its toxic ideology is what informs all these radicals And guess what Saudis are still getting billions and dollars of arms from the US to bomb kids in Yemen The the Saudis have still not been held to account for their, you know State or private complaints Haiti in 9-11 for for instance and guess what? Afghanistan and Iraq have been punished for Saudi ideology that's how I I view it and I think that so so it is all kind of the way It's perceived. It's very skin deep It's very partial and I hope that after this political campaign is over the temperatures go down and Phobia sort of will come to kind of an auto normal levels But certainly it's not this just the US in Europe. It's even worse with the with the kind of narratives we see and You know, I used to be a very vocal critic of Islamic extremism But in these two years, I just feel that oh my god, you know The moment you open your mouth about Islamic extremists, it's it's going to be played up by the whole whole Islamophobia industry and so one has to completely position oneself in this Different context and I think it is it is a disservice I mean at the end of the day the total population of the United States is Barely a percent one percent of the total and the the paranoia is maybe 300 percent Now is as someone who who pushed very hard for Turkey to pass a hate crimes bill and we're still not there We have a health-baked bill at this point Let me put it this way. Sure. There is Islamophobia not only in Let's say in the non Muslim world, but also even in parts of the Muslim world, too I've seen a lot of Islamophobic Muslims myself The second question a lot of the people who talk about Islamophobia in a very self-righteous way a lot of the Muslims who talk about it It's shocking to see that they don't at all at all Think about or work around issues of Antichristian sentiment and anti-Semitism and So this is not the legitimized hate I've devoted my life to fighting hate crimes and hate speech, but If you ask me would you rather like to be a Muslim in us or in the EU or a Christian or a Jew in Turkey or Pakistan? I'll take the EU or the US anytime and every time Is it easier to build a mosque in the EU or US? Or to build a church or a synagogue in Pakistan or in Turkey? So I think one way to make progress on these issues is to make sure that We're not too Particularistic and we approach the issue of hate crimes and hate speech as a whole and Push a holistic agenda that is For example, I'll be attending funny that you asked it today I'll be attending an Islamophobia event tomorrow, which will be funded by a Turkish institution Now I doubt other Turkish institutions will be too happy to fund an event back at home about anti-Semitism or the ongoing persecution of Christians in Turkey, so Let me end with any heartwarming anecdote You remember the case of this I think evangelical pastor who wanted to burn a Koran Yeah, and then actually you know what it was again a friend of mine a devout kind of Christian clergyman who went there and who prevented it wasn't police. It wasn't the White House. It was basically Community intervention. It was kind of good Samaritans intervening and this this made it to news. I think on CNN and then People if I'm not mistaken in Pakistan We're watching this and they saw this act of kindness and They managed to call a few people involved and told them we saw this you were very moved by it and We adopted the local Christian church and community as the local Muslim community and they went there They cleaned the church and it was almost like an informal form of protection just to show that Often these Kind of more I would call humanistic and holistic Kind of outreaches and it's not a police outreach. It's not it's not that military outreach, but it's yes, it's kind of but but reciprocal and Not again, not cherry-picking It has more potential to deliver Meaning I think the best that Muslims can do today in the world to fight Islamophobia Is not necessary to hold Islamophobia events Maybe in in Paris in London in DC in New York But they can maybe to treat Christians and Muslims as Christians and Jews and Hindus and atheists better And in fact, I'm sure that will have a broader impact Because the best policy going back to my anecdote the best policy to protect Christians in Pakistan in this case was to look after your Muslim neighbors But that's why when I was in Boston Over the summer I saw a church with a huge banner downtown. It said Love your neighbor as yourself, but then before the neighbor they put Muslim So the church said love your Muslim neighbor as you love yourself. So I tweeted this back home Because I knew this was the best move possible to protect Turkey's minorities because if one Muslim who's prone to violence against minorities saw that church in Boston embracing Muslims in the US I am sure it's more effective than putting an extra 10 Turkish police officers next to a synagogue or a church so I think This could be my I guess idiosyncratic way of dealing with Islamophobia great communication Well, thank you, and I'm happy to end on that note that also espouses pluralism and American What I think a lot of people want to see as American values, even if they're not always spoken about that way and so thank you very much to icon and to Raza and We have a very short coffee break Until 2 45 so about five minutes, and then we'll start our last talk on endless war Thank you