 Great to have you back on the breakfast here on Plus TV Africa. Our first major conversation today of course is going to be talking about opening up an investigative report that was carried out by the BBC sometime last week or was put out by the BBC sometime last week and it's about courtism in the Nigerian society and of course the links it has with politics. This morning we're speaking with a chief lecturer at the Nigerian Institute of Journalism, G-Date Johnson. Thank you very much for joining us. Good morning to you sir. Good morning to you as I already had mercy and then since you're in the season of mercy, God have mercy on all of us and Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all of you as well about the world in advance. Same to you sir. Now let's talk about you know the the main you know conversation here. Cultism politics for a lot of people didn't come as a shock you know when that investigative report you know was put out. For some you know it might have been a little surprising but let's hear from you first. Did you always you know that there is a link with these two in Nigeria? It has always been a link between the two however we thought courtism was dominant in campuses and saw the advent of the Fort Republic which was a major feature that medieval this Fort Republic a deception. You recall that it was a national problem that the then president who has not spent up to two years in in office, President Lucia Cobas God, in 2000 directed all vice-councillors and head of tertiary institutions to come up with a policy and a program that would eradicate courtism in our campuses within three months that was as far back as 2000 and then you could see that there has always been been a linkage between courtism and politics. It didn't come into the open until about that time when we saw that the president directed we have always associated to agree with politics in our part of the world where we discover and we found a linkage between courtism and politics set and relight of this Fort Republic. So it's nothing it's nothing surprising it's nothing new. The BBC documentary just highlighted what has been in assistance and what people have written about what people have said about the challenge we have in our part of what is that. We don't value our own internal inquiry our own internal investigation until an external body does that and it's very very human in nature. If you put your love right in your house you might not appreciate it but when you go out to the eating and you see your love rise and then you fall in love with your love rise, your love rise which basically you cook in your own house every other time. Yeah but um Mr Johnson why exactly is this um um a problem you know from what you've seen what exactly did you see in the documentary that you may have spotted and said okay this is a major challenge in the country or is this you know for Nigerians should this be a you know a normal thing you know nothing to worry about. It shouldn't be the norm where you use um it shouldn't be the norm where you have non-state actors influencing the democratic process that's the challenge for me where you have non-state actors having control over the will of the people and having access to public fund and the use of state resources to perpetrate evil in the society that's that's that's the concern for me for democracy to really thrive it should be the will of the majority not the manipulation perpetrated through the use of violence threats intimidation and assassination with non-state actors such as um different types of cultist groups that we are across board and we thought that this man has was a man has on our campuses until we discover that he has getting to the street there's virtually no street in Nigeria that you won't find on court it has it has gotten to secondary school it has gotten to primary school that's gotten you if you link the story with the story of Doen um Doen case the BBC story with Doen case and what was the major trust of the Doen case you discover that it's it's it's a man has that I didn't take it to a site I'll tell you there was an incident that happened I think about um two two weeks ago around when a crushed cross on school student in in in Ujubeka in Lagos I was I was when that I was after the incident I was unfortunate to find myself in that in that in that particular area when the driver was brought in the and you need to see the secondary school student when this secondary school went on ramping you need to see the venom you need to hear what is coming out of the amount and you need to see how the I was just really because I left my car I I left my car came out of the car park because I was just three meters away from the police station park my car took care of my life my life was much more important than my car and I was playing that God may God not set it in the heart or such certain things are placed so it is in virtual every nooks and crannies of outside and it is because the political class have a dead and a better the root of of this court is if there's no doubt there's no doubt about that all you need to do is for you to just go on monitoring doing political parties parmaries doing political party parmaries or you go to it during the day of the election and you will see how these various elements elements that are not state elements security agencies that have all arms and ammunition that even some state security cannot cannot cannot boost off then you begin to wonder why are these people not arrested or why are they not intercepted why are they not prosecuted by state actors if quote unquote you don't have political political god god godfathers and that's the death street which we have found we have found ourselves and there are many factors that are responsible that are responsible for this okay but let's also you know stay with the educational sector now we know that parrots at this time you know cultism and cult related activities were very common you know in the universities across the country but how did we get to the point that we now have them in our primary schools and our nursery schools and our you know all the secondary schools how did we get to that point do we also have because i mean it's been really tied down to the fact that yes there's a connection with you know politicians and you know cultism and cult related activities but in our schools in our institution as fragile as this is because we have this young you know children here how did we get to that point how did he you know get into our institution at that level learning is both in character and intellect learning also has to do with the totality of your working and food development i'll tell you this um what we are focused on is on the mental side we have not focused on on the physical side of learning have not focused on on the moral side of learning how many schools you recall in the past how many schools have um spotting facilities in education we have curriculum activities that goes with education that way people can bond their unbridled energy where people can if someone loves violence you could channel that resources for that person to go into combat sport combat sports like wrestling like boxing like boxing what facility we check other climbs they have this student from from cradle begins to know how to channel beyond and beyond education there are co-curricular activities that we engage in how many schools have spotting facilities i'm doing it to you both at the primary at the secondary and the tertiary institution is that how we used to be in the past these are things that we need the school system that we have now you send the children to go to school they go to school they do the do the mental side they do assignment they do and all the spare time they have what do you have them to do you don't have them to do anything they are not engaged morally they are not engaged um physically now there's one thing which sport teaches you for example you know if you play football you must know how to control your anger if someone should give you a slide in that you can slap that person if you slap that person you'll be given a red card that disciplines you to control your emotions all of that you don't have it again and nobody's you go to our university system they are not spotting facilities there are no avenue for students to even engage in sports it's gone it's it's it's it's it's gone it's your now why do you think that the collegiate system in america and in other part of the client they have sporting games for universities across the length and breadth of build like we used to have nougat games like we used to have all secondary school games so if we really want to deal with this issue we must go back to the basics what were the things that we are doing in the sixties what were the things that we are doing in the seventies that we are no longer doing it again now the schools that we have these the the play these the sporting facilities have either been adjourned by government and turned into private estates or they build others because better than look for they build other schools on the sporting facilities on those schools and now the cheap the the pupils and the students don't have an avenue for them to themselves another factor is we have destroyed legitimate means of student organization what do i mean by that student unionism we have destroyed student unionism we have not provided us a passport and it's unfortunate that most vcs most people in power today even in senate in the hands of rep who are one student union leaders who are one student if if if you go to school abroad you go to school in western world you are encouraged to join one form of fraternity or the other whereby you could you could advance in particular course now schools have prescribed student unionism so there is no avenue for student to have representation there's no avenue for student to have a say in how they are being governed in their school as a result of that they will go underground they will go underground to find another means of protecting themselves of preserving themselves of finding some measure of responsibility and i've said it this democracy cannot grow our society cannot go until we allow student unionism to grow you allow it to grow you allow it but you the next thing you see is you you prescribe it i'm not taking any squad even my own school my own school that is a school of journalism i get him up why should we be afraid of students coming together and forming an association and forming an alternative point of view to existing order to serve as checks and policies within any given system we don't have it again we don't go across even and within the this is and got the answers of tertiary institutions we pride themselves that have prescribed student unionism and that is why we are found ourselves where we are we are today the reason why it becomes a hydro added problem in this in the late in the late nineties was as a result of military governments of sensitive military government from baganguida era to scribe student unionism arresting and dealing student union leader you need those institutions those are basic institutions that allow people to grow the allow people to form their opinion to form their ideological meaning and for them to learn and test leadership we don't have that again we don't have literary and debate society in schools again schools used to engage in literary and debate society contest we don't have principal cops again all of these activities and then we start complaining you know what's happening no we are the course of the problem because some of the things that we need to engage the youth they have unbridled energy we don't need to engage them some of the things that we need to use to teach them leadership to teach them responsibility to get them engaged to form their opinion to know that they have a voice in the society we have style put it and when you push people on the ground they will engage in nefarious activities and that's and that's the pain and that's the pain of of of of of of anxiety i remember being a very well you know how popular nuga games used to be in the nineties um but you know today my younger sister my younger sister want to good meta for unilateral to good meta in basketball and in and for unilateral in nuga games so we don't we don't have even in secondary school you don't have a lot of that again you said it used to be interhouse interhouse sports in the universe in the sports that you invite other schools and they don't even have those sporting facilities again what i for example was already unmessing you know once once a child goes to school primary secondary and he goes to college if you cannot get admission through his mental ability he could get admission through his physical ability by the natural talent he has probably in one sporting activity or the other we will be in society in society through through through those means you know the only way we tell people to success in Nigeria is for you to be mentally to be mentally sound and that's not how society grows and that's not how we develop this society society in the past i remember one song that minister will be sung in this in the seventies that you do not do your talent if your talent is to sing let it i sing if the talent of your time is to play football let him play football you might turn around or let it cut tomorrow if you so there are various means which people could succeed just imagine if there was no boxing in america you hear someone like me with that will you have someone like my tyson we have someone like a tyson for in great or they have no basketball would there be the run james would there be kevin durant would that be we or without without athletics would there be someone like um um usain bolt of course not and we keep cover keep pain lip service to it i i i ask you don't send your reporter one of your producers should send your reporters to go to secondary schools in legal state and look at the schools and look at whether they are spotting facilities in the school even private schools we are sending our children to prison that's what we are telling them to they come in in the morning we give them the they would they would do mental work we give them assignment assignment have you attempted to do the assignment with two-year-old with three-year-old of those school children have you attempted to do the assignment just look for one of your cousins and let them bring the assignment for the assignment will take hours so emphasis us is on intellectual development is not on mental development is not on physical development is not on moral development and we will be blaming we will be blaming them secret code the political class know what they are doing this is what they used to perpetrate themselves power they format violent and they use the violence to format themselves all you need to do is to go when they are doing primaries we'll soon get to the season i can talk broadly about this because i was involved in politics for 20 years 1987 to 2007 i was actively involved i've sought elected of this i've heard party offices so i know i know what's what what what Julie Johnson this is is any way to differentiate this from the Nigerian politicians you know taking advantage of poverty and and and thuggery in the society because you know we're talking court is in now i'm sure that of course there's different court groups you know across of course each and every state and so is this you know really just the politicians taking advantage of the availability of thugs and unemployed you know individuals in society to you know help them help keep themselves in power or is this you know targeted directly at courtism itself no you see it's it's you know power power is sweet and then and and the spoils of power is very very sweet do you know that some members of state cabinet are members of court is group some members of in actual sense there was a particular government in one of the southwestern states for you to be a member you must join a party you must be a member of a particular and court is groups for you to be a member of that's how bad has gotten into that people don't even i did and as a result of that they promote all of these in in the society and they promote this in in in schools now if you look at what was the reason behind the establishment of court is on fraternities and this type of groups it is not to foment trouble it is not to form violence it is not to engage in in in in assassinating rival rival groups this was meant to be to provide protection a sense of responsibility and identification for for for people in the university in the university systems once you go to school abroad there all these fraternities are open they are well known and then you decide which one you want to join based on the values based on the philosophy based on the ideas they stand for if you check the basis the idea behind some of these court is group where they were established and what they are doing now we see that there is a departure where we let's talk about private confraternity which was established by preservation in university of ibadonten and some of his friends what was the goal the goal was to protect student from harassment from intimidation to fight a common cause of protection but what has it turned into in the society in the society now so these these these are the the challenges that we have because the goal of these groups when they were established is not what it is being used to pursue and we have said it if schools should allow if people want to form fraternities in schools let them come in the open let them register know what the fraternity is all about it is because you have made them secret that's why they have become nefarious in the activity and they can be used for planned design activities yet then if you go to school abroad you have different types of groups different types of confraternity you can join and then for example you know that the first 6 president of united states of america were free missings you are free you are free missings now free missing is a it's it's it's a confraternity group in united states of america it's all of these schools we talk about ibadonts for they have different types of confraternity for you to join it's open but for you to join you must sleep by some certain ideas you must be ready to contribute to the growth of the society not to destroy others not to kill others and that's what we have in our own part in our own part of the world that people will now use it to perpetuate themselves in part because they know in the alarm the will of the people if they allow people to feel it and peacefully go to the pool they will not win the election so how do they do that in order to perpetuate the the tyrannical rule of the minority so they will use scare tactics intimidation harassment assassination violence you need to access it we need to ask why do we have violence perpetuating our electoral process both at the palmaries and at the main election if indeed these people are willing to serve people at least i should we see the way they do elections in other climes election is like carnival and we used to have election like that in nigeria it used to be like carnival how did we get to where we had now if not that the political class had a hand in it and like dbc has reported and like nigeria media have reported have you seen any electoral officer electoral electoral offender how many have been killed how many have been prosecuted how many of the political class have been have been arrested and prosecuted for promoting and perpetuating violence during elections in 1999 max in you this is 1999 how many the last election we saw a result was declared and the person had declared result said that he declared the result under duress that he gone was pointed to his head we saw how a serving minister was crowned for an election in a particular state and how violence was perpetuated in that in that state the only person that was killed i knew he was he was a professor of mone school in in most it or there about a professor or whether in his in almost it or acquire them it's that professor that was killed that was the only person but what are those that are connected to it but you know you know one of the political class being called to being called to order being called to question when it comes to perpetuating these violence if you go on the street do you know and then it's it's it's virtually on the street and it's virtually on all of these areas they go to control they control the road transport workers control the road transport workers who allow autism to grow on the street and then for you to become a unit leader for you to become a union leader you know all the mess you know what you need to do to become that and that's how we are found ourselves all right but you just let's also look at this now i mean religion is such a big thing for us in nigeria and you we know that predominantly you have christians and muslims let's take for example now in 2019 according to the statistics that's been put out there 16 300 churches that we have as a 2019 and now we're in 2020 so you can imagine you know the number that would have actually been added to that with 3.6 million members i mean of church peasants my question is where how come you know religion has not trickled down you know church muslim because the tenets if you look at it whether it's you know christianity or whether it's islam you find out that the tenets are almost the same love is one of it and so how come that has not trickled down to you know the society and to reduce you know the activities of the secret courts in nigeria instead of culture is very powerful that culture shifts structure we have a culture whereby the church the tradition the religious institutions and traditional institutions have become embedded in the nigerian political culture we don't teach moral instructions again churches don't preach moral is about how to succeed all those when religious institutions have become materialistic themselves and the principle of fearism is not being taught and where there is this rat race among churches particularly i can speak more about churches because i'm a christian and the rat race are the biggest auditorium they own they own auditorium auditorium we have this don't forget that churches too are are are are are caught in the various denominations are various courts let's let's and various sects in islamic faith are various courts too so let's just face reality it's it's just that that it's an open courtism you know i'm a member the way the way membership of these various denominations interface and interact if and so we have a situation whereby the moral authority of the traditional institutions the traditional rulers and the religious leaders have have have been eroded by the culture that we have in our society so how many churches are teaching moral instructions how many churches are even practicing the tenets of their faith now if you practice the tenet of the faith you should be able to call those in leadership to order but you see that the political class they will call the our so-called religious leaders they will call them to come for Thanksgiving they invite them to their special programs and they will they will hear and update this this level of impunity if our religious leaders are really religious leaders they will call to question the spirit of insecurity that we have in Nigeria they will call to question the the performances of the governors the elected representative of the people or what you did to the go cap in and to Asura they go cap in and to to to Lagos house they'll go and sit down there i've asked this question and i'm seeing it can you imagine jesus going to do Thanksgiving in the house of a governor or in the state house i'm just i'm just training people so basically those institutions they've lost their value because the culture that we have in this country has rubbed on their structure and as a result of that those busy principle remember the son of whom you are understand that this word is not you are not meant to be materialistic but in church you can only park your car in the main car park if you drive the most beautiful car they will look at your car before they allow you to park i'm not talking about what i know i'm talking about what i've experienced i've had costs to challenge people in church and then i've had costs to challenge them and then you know when you begin to ask questions they call you the son of the devil or a troublemaker or human right activists so basically our church has become materialistic we have caught up with the culture of materialism so both traditional institutions and religious institutions as a result they are not they are not bored enough to you can't talk while you are eating because they are eating part of the cookie jar because they are eating part of the cookie jar so they can't talk to the people they are eating from so that's that's that's i don't remember we do have the we do have can't president like sunday in bank like at bishova date louis you know like we used to have in the past we have said it under military regime our society seems to be more organized and more proactive and holding government accounting than we have ever witnessed under someone asked me this question in fact we were we were writing on trodmillan bridge and the president asked me this question you think that in military administration has been better for nigeria than ciblians i said if they are not experienced 20 years of ciblian administration i'll have a contrary view i said however with a benefit of insight i think i want to agree that nigeria has been better off under military administration than we have been better off under ciblian administration the trodmillan bridge was conceived trodmillan bridge was conceived by military administration the trodmillan bridge we have used 21 um 20 21 years of now 22 years of democratic experience there's no trodmillan bridge there's no plan to extend to to diversify neighbors to do anything concerning that so but all right julie johnson but i'm not saying that we should have military government but i'm just saying that with the benefit of insight and the only i did public administration as a little tip comes in the department of post science while i was doing my undergraduate decreasing in lag he said the only way you can make science of public administration is to do a comparative analysis and what i'm doing is a comparative analysis if you do a comparative analysis of military administration these are the civilian administration in nigeria you ask yourself a question is media as active as it used to be under military administration are the civil society as active as they used to be under military administration are religious but the active and they used to be so as a researcher you use that as yeah i'm with you tell you yeah i think we can you know end um the the conversation at this point um obviously there's a lot of work that needs to be done you know it's not it's not a very you know beautiful picture that has been painted of the nigerian society with regard to autism and politics uh but of course we will continue to have a role to play in this parents have a role parents the role of parenting everything that we see in society starts from the home so all of us you take responsibility as a parent i think it starts from the home the bottom line is parenting i've lost that value of parenting and we used to have collective parenting each i does not belong to the father i don't belong to the community the community take responsibility for training the child we have lost that value and i think we need to go back to that value where your community parenting if your father's friends you see you miss giving your father's friend will discipline you right away from there thank you us all again Julie Johnson thank you so much for your time this morning and we of course uh wish you a very interesting day at head stay with us we'll take a short break when we come back we're moving into talking about landryer's electoral process the inec chairman says we need 305 billion naira to conduct the 2023 general elections and that comes up right after the short break