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It's going to happen So that michael schermer in inspiring philosophy debate should be a fantastic one And so that Kickstarter link is in the description if you'd like to watch it live Just three bucks and like I said that helps cover the speaker fees as we're excited for this big step With that we are going to jump into the debate quickly We'll be starting from stewart with an opening statement of roughly 10 minutes Followed by the same from matt and then open discussion and then q&a So if you happen to have a question feel free to fire that question in the old live chat And if you tag me with at modern day debate that'll make it easier for me to grab all the questions to put them in the q&a list Last but not least want to let you know folks In the description at the very top. We have put the links of the speakers So if you'd like to hear more from them, you can hear more from them And so with that we're going to kick it over to stewart Want to say first though, thanks so much both of you stewart and matt for being here We are very excited to have you with us. So thanks so much for making it Nice for having me Thanks, we got the time worked out Absolutely. So that's right. This is a reschedule. So thanks so much for your patience as last friday We had to kind of kick it over to this week as we had a connection issue So thanks so much. We are going to kick it over to stewart now stewart. Thanks so much. The floor is all yours All right, I appreciate you both jumping right in Cosmic wonder and perceived design So last time I mentioned that Evidence has to truly make sense of this complex world. So often I'll hear evidence strictly from kind of the Rational perspective that has a lot to do with teleological cosmological all the illogical arguments and for me as a pastor and unlicensed psychotherapist I noticed that in order to weigh evidence for anybody Typically they're going to take it from a pretty holistic approach. So we could say Existentially fulfilling intellectually satisfying or credible and so head emotions Culture does your culture make sense of it? We've hit many. I'll probably stick with just those three in our discussion today. So firstly Kind of more so the logic the rationale from a head perspective is cosmic wonder and perceived design so cosmic wonder One way to argue for the existence of god Is to infer his existence from existence itself So believing in god is to believe the universe has a certain character about it Which is different than saying within space and time. I'm trying to make an argument for say the Loch Ness monster So those who do not believe in god think that material objects exist pretty much on their own And I have a tough time with that in terms of understanding the character per se of the universe of our cosmos Another piece that has more so to do with kind of this awe is cosmic wonder Is is not so much connected But it partly is because this type of argument always leads me to experience a sense of gratitude something That it begins to exist Has to have something that starts it or something can't come from nothing There's a sense of gratitude. I always have not just for whatever started this thing But we're going to get down to it where it's perhaps starts as simply a To what many would say is kind of this divine principle I would take it to a personal creator And then I would take it down to that personal creator punched a hole through space and time Through the character of jesus christ coming to this earth to meet us in a loving relationship. So Once we really get into it this being has to be spaceless timeless immaterial uncaws and unimaginably powerful and I would add to that personal so Perceived design there's constants of physics the speed of light the gravitational constant the strength of the strong and weak nuclear forces They must all have almost exactly The values they do in order to have organic life here on this planet, but also the universe And so you can think of a set of dials all of which must Be set where they are set in terms of probability and the chances that all the dials would be tuned to life permitting settings All at once is incomprehensible So that mit professor allen lightman and harper's magazine writes of sciences crisis of fate He says that the fine-tuning argument is strong enough that scientists put forth the multiverse thesis Even though there is neither a shred of evidence for it Nor anyway to test it Either you have to take a great Step of faith to believe there is a god or who designed the universe or you must take a great step of faith To believe there is not So distinguish agnostic physician louis thomas. I love his honesty here I cannot make peace with the randomness doctrine I cannot abide the notion of purposelessness and blind chance in nature and yet I do not know What to put in its place for the quieting of my mind All right, moving on down to morality And justice so making slightly making more sense of say what we see in culture today I would take the dostoevsky challenge Well, I'm going to talk later on hopefully I'll get a chance to talk about rscolnikov and crime and punishment That's my favorite kind of illustration Of moral relativism. I don't know if matt's a moral relativist. So he may not be so I probably will not bring it up then but If there is no god there there starts to be an issue and I had julian bajini who wrote The book on intro to atheism oxford press not too long ago It was a couple years ago, but I had a conversation with him recently and he says that Atheists are quite rightly keen to counter the Accusation that life without god cannot be moral he admits though for the religious at least there is some bedrock belief that gives a reason Is a reason to believe that morality is real and will prevail in an atheist universe morality can be rejected Without clear compelling reason to believe in its reality and that's exactly what will sometimes happen When I mentioned the schizophrenia of modern morals simply put I noticed that a lot of people have tremendous moral convictions But they won't talk about objective morality where these moral convictions come from and so whether it's identity politics You pick your poison. There's so many different groups of people or or religions I mean you see it in religiosity too Well, john height will talk about the self righteousness the the type of animals we are and if there's no moral absolute bedrock to it and Really in this country throughout and until pretty much our current times where You know, you think of like a charles taylor the great philosopher up in canada right now. He talks about how There's no bedrock for morality and how everything's self authorizing and because of that We're speaking over each other or it's kind of this Nietzschean shouting down Each other we talked about the failure of the social sciences I gave the example of beatrice web And the british welfare system and how she tried over and over again to say hey Morally speaking we're going to really be able to make this country work And we're going to be able to make changes but then upon retirement after years and years and years She started to realize education things like technology could not solve the social ills the big moral issues It had to be some type of moral objectivity It had to be kind of a heart change of some sort the interact ability She wouldn't say of sin, but the interact ability of some type of human brokenness So is there a way forward? Well, we talk about telos and purpose There has to be a purpose for man and woman in order to even begin to talk about what is truly right or wrong Hume, Kant, Kierkegaard and others sought to provide justification for objective moral claims. They all failed Uh, and this is why our society today is riven polarized like I'd mentioned so for me I think it really has to come down to how are we going to solve The problems we have today and and I see a lot of young adults Having a tough time with moral relativism and I see the bankruptcy of it So christian smith out of Notre Dame 30 of young adults now are strong moral relativists And so one woman was Was interviewed and she said look if if a couple fanatical muslims want to fly a few planes Into the the twin towers. What is that to me? I mean if that's true for them. It's true for them It's right for them. Again. This may not be matt's position whatsoever But it's a tremendous. There's a tremendous increase here in this area of moral relativism and another one recently is it means 75 percent If you remove the moral bedrock this moral absolute from our country You have something like the statistic that recently came out 75 percent of those Who were asked would you cheat on the sat if you could get away with it 75 percent said yes, they would And in many ways that's consistent because it's a type of selfish desire And if moral absolutes don't exist then what ultimately is the motivation? I don't see much of a motivation. I don't think this is Hard hard evidence that there's a personal God per se, but I think it it makes sense at least for me in terms of a moral Absolute that is connected to some type of Obligation which is connected to a personal Creator of some sort Or you could say all right steward that's that's pushing it too far. I mean, I mean what are you talking about christianity? No, not necessarily. I would get to christianity, but you could just leave it at any type of spiritual transcendent being value That's that's where I typically go after talking about morality. I have a very tough time in a Universe that is so based on loving relationships You know kamu talked about how the scariest most meaningless part of life is simply the breakdown and ultimate demise of loving relationships I'm fully there with kamu And so does this place here on earth make more sense if life started with a personal creator Where there was unconditional love amongst the the trinity father son of holy spirit And then also unconditional love for the beings he created or does it make sense more so from A randomness hide it hide a girl's for example his thrown this we just showed up here And it's the strong eat the weak and so death would ultimately be kind of the main end of man and woman um And then I go with I think a big part is our long for justice our longing for justice And you know thomas nagel is one of my favorite thinkers right now. He's down the street at nyu He said if you cannot accept that objective moral absolutes and obligation our illusions Then you can see that there must be something beyond this physical material world That account for them even if you Are are not sure what it is and that thing can give us value whatever it is a long side of That type of moral obligation and then finally meaning and purpose and beauty. I brought up the bible robert alter arguably the top probably in the world disputable Uh writer commentator for the old testament not a christian But he says every single time I sit down to write on the old testament I start to wonder is this whole narrative in the bible actually true because it's so beautiful And there's tons of different Details within the bible that's simply the sheer beauty of it for me I am very similar to robert alter right there even though we disagree on our own religious positions But very similar to start to wonder wow is this thing really true in how within the type of beauty that is ultimately within it And meaning we have to search for some type of meaning. I think again if you go culturally speaking I was counseling a woman Years ago who was finding meaning and purpose in her art and I see this way more than just occasionally She ended up sinking into a great depression Great pain ended up in a psych facility because she was finding all of her meaning and purpose in art And we know a buddhist understanding when it comes to meaning would say well detach aim for something But detach so you don't end up falling into that type of pain, but the more secular understanding in our western culture is No chase after that thing chase after the thing don't go crazy doing it But you got to find yourself And you've got to fulfill those ultimate dreams of yours or you really haven't found your meaning and purpose in life I think there's great issues for those both of those positions. And I think understanding a personal god Who gave his one and only son for us to give us an ultimate reason to live that is beyond just this planet? Will ultimately Show and give great evidence for the christian position um kenyan college There was an incredible speaker david foster wallis He hung himself not too long ago was it was an atheist, but he basically said along these lines of meaning and purpose He said look at kenyan college. He said if you Worship and we all worship something finite something On this plane of existence something earthy Then ultimately it will eat you alive But if you worship something transcendent call it a god call it whatever you want That is eternal That is how you can find meaning and purpose in life That will help you flourish and will not eat you alive And I think right there when i'm on college campuses or debating 30 second warning People will say okay fine I I get it like my dad started living for his job So there was a painful divorce and things just broke down or I was living for my grades And now I've entered a depression or clinical anxiety. So there's a tremendous issue there So there has to be something transcendent you're living for to find that meaning and purpose In order to live a tremendously flourishing life Thanks so much appreciate that stewart We will now kick it over to matt and that's a flexible opening statement So if you need more than 10 minutes, not a problem and the floor is all yours. Thanks so much matt All right, thanks and thanks stewart. Uh, I I'm not gonna I'm not gonna change anything. I'm not gonna Rewrite an opening statement appreciate that We'll have a debate on is there strong evidence for the existence of god So here's what I prep to discuss and then we'll discuss So what counts as strong evidence? Mostly you put the word strong on in order to distinguish it from something like testimony because while testimony is considered evidence It's not generally considered strong evidence. In fact, it's generally considered the weakest type of evidence with hearsay Which is testimony about testimony Being among the weakest and it frustrates us because Strong isn't well defined and it's potentially subjective what I consider strong evidence isn't necessarily what stewart's likely to consider it But we've settled this issue to some extent about stronger good evidence in courtrooms and in scientific processes And I can't see why a god which has been excluded from both of those arenas Could possibly have strong evidence Science limits itself to naturalistic explanation So it's not going to make a positive god and courtrooms don't allow spectral evidence And yet if in fact there was a god if in fact there was a real being that was interacting with reality It seems that the evidence for this should be found to be admissible both in a courtroom and within science If if the god that we're talking about is somebody that doesn't interact in reality in any detectable or measurable way Then that god's existence is indistinguishable to us from its non-existence And so hearsay opinion feeling Any evidence that could apply to multiple different answers is problematic if you present an argument for the existence of god And it is a generic deistic argument or a fuzzy feeling About hey, we really need some explanation for this and I can't think of one But a god does it the the question then becomes Is that evidence is it strong evidence and is it strong evidence that points specifically to the god that you believe in Or does it point to a whole myriad? Group of gods or potential gods that could serve as explanations for things that you're uncomfortable about In the case of the bible, we don't have testimony. We don't have testimonials or depositions No one is under oath. No one is being questioned. We have propaganda from anonymous altered ancient accounts eyewitness testimony is unreliable under the best circumstances And if you recorded like a deposition of someone What about altered recordings or deep fakes and We need a chain of custody There's a difference between here's some evidence and here's some really good evidence that Directly links to the proposition that I'm making as a proposed explanation For me nothing in the bible could possibly count as strong evidence. It's a bunch of claims largely unsupported by evidence supported by testimonial anecdotal evidence It is copies of copies of translations of oral traditions. There's no way to investigate it It's like it's like a recorded deposition that's garbled from someone 2000 years ago and you're never going to be able to investigate it So what sort of evidence would we expect? I mean if we're going to get rid of testimonial and say that's not strong evidence still evidence not strong It leaves arguments that attempt to explain these observations, but We need the strong evidence of time together So what sort of evidence could a god provide? Well, I would argue that anything that would qualify as a god could settle this debate right now by showing up presenting strong evidence And that this has been true for the entire history of humanity And that it has never happened In fact a version of the argument from divine hidden suggests the fact that this doesn't happen Probably suggest that our god isn't real And isn't actually actually able to offer anything Now whether or not that's means is what a god can do is a separate issue As far as I can tell I haven't suffered so much as a hangnail and punishment for 15 years of Railing against every god and every religion that anybody wants to call in about to point out that Hey, there's no good reason to believe this as far as I can tell god hasn't done anything There's a website called why won't god heal amputees, which I don't know if it's still around Now I've had people tell me that god does in fact heal amputees and they've seen it with their own eyes And yet they do not or cannot produce evidence as a magician I've heard people describe crooks and watch them claim that the only explanation is that I'm using demonic powers when I know that to be false Uh, I could say hey, I raised someone from the dead the other day But they were sent abducted by aliens and if you were with me you would have seen it And so that's the strong evidence. Why would I lie? So for ages we've been have people claiming a thrashing over even a god and then some claim There's strong evidence yet. Where's the presentation of the evidence? I don't know because I Wrote earlier. I don't know what actual evidence But there's lots and lots of claims. I want someone to present the evidence It needs to be distinctly applicable to the god you're arguing for it needs to be empirical examinable Hopefully reproducible and the god proposition needs to be falsifiable as well There needs to be some way to show that this isn't true. In fact, it's not Once upon a time strong evidence was presented for the sun Uh orbiting the earth, but we were wrong This sun doesn't orbit the earth But all of the evidence and it was good strong evidence led us to that conclusion We also had the same strong evidence that the moon orbits the earth and we were right So strong evidence isn't enough on its own and we don't even have that Right now in the united states. We have a prime example There is no strong evidence of election fraud sufficient to have impacted the 2020 presidential election Despite this fact multiple recounts elections being the most secure ever every state has certified the results The supreme court has rejected an attempt by texas and 18 other states in this area and now electors have cast their votes There isn't strong evidence of fraud that would have impacted the election There's not even weak evidence yet people still believe it's a fraudulent election Just like they believe the earth is flat Just like they believe there's a god The only difference between evidence for fraud and evidence for god Is that the fraud proposition is actually testable and falsifiable while the god proposition isn't Which for clarity makes it the weaker claim With the weaker evidence not stronger the fraud proposition is something natural That's known to be a potential explanation for election results The god claim isn't known to be a potential explanation for anything If we're trying to explain something whether it's election fraud The existence of the universe Hope morality What created something is there something rather than nothing that we have to explain We begin by listing candidate explanation things that we know from experience and evidence could be a potential explanation God did it as a claim has never been demonstrated to even qualify as a candidate explanation We stopped allowing spectral evidences in courts Try walking into a courtroom and suggesting that god told you to break the speed limit or that he told you to bomb an abortion clinic The courts will not accept that But if there were strong evidence for god, the courts would have to accept it This issue is as over and done as the 2020 election It's just that they're going to be an increasingly diminishing portion of the population that like trump and his supporters Simply refuse to concede Thanks so much matt we will kick it into open discussion mode So thanks everybody for being here if you happen to have any questions for the q&a Oh, wait, I want I want to let you know if you were here last time and if you already sent in a super chat I've saved those so if you were here last time we'll read that super chat I've got those and so don't super chat again to ask your question again We've got it and so with that we will kick it into open discussion mode the floor is all yours guys so When you talked about evidence and I liked your breakdown Are you talking about evidence? external And internal how I mean I'm not I don't want to argue from the authority of scripture obviously But are you too? I mean when you think about evidence? I always dig into so I almost lost my faith in college I had to step back and say what is the bible saying in terms of what evidence is and will that evidence lead me to christ or Not and then I had to step outside of the text and say What do I potentially think good evidence would be for god? Are you doing both of those or what's what's your thought on that? Well, it's funny that you mentioned that you you've not lost your face and then you had to step back and say What does the bible say and I did something similar except that my question is why should I care what the bible has to say And no one has been able to give me a good reason to care about what the bible says Why why should the bible, you know Did you ask yourself the same question about the koran or the baghavad gita? Did you go through these others and say oh, I should care what these religious texts have to say I don't care what the bible has to say because I don't see evidence that it is authoritative that I should consider it that way And so instead I went to standards of evidence outs You know absent any bias or religion because if the standards of evidence are good Whatever religion Religious views may be true should be able to survive that whether they come from the bible a preacher the koran Scientology which hopefully will all chuckle at but I don't see any reason to go to the bible What what do you think drew you to the bible and what answer did you get? so I Maybe I communicated that poorly because I would never go with because the bible tells me so what I meant by that was If we are if we receive general revelation like kan't talked about in the starry skies and then a type of special revelations Revelation through our conscience as well as scripture and romans one talks about it What I'm what I'm trying to communicate here is Then you have to take that type of evidence inside scripture and say if I'm going to get to god And god obviously made the first step towards us I'm going to have to follow that type of logical progression, but not just that I'm saying before you get there you have to step outside and say look is this even fair that the bible is actually Calling me to do this Some level of biblical accountability You see what I'm saying No, I didn't I really don't I'd love to But I'm trying to What reason So like here's this there's 23 books probably on this shelf right here. Yeah, and if I'm trying to figure out let's say How what should I think about morality? Uh, I don't see any reason to go to the ashley book of knots I don't reason to see a reason to go to the koran I don't see a reason to go to god the failed hypothesis by victor stinger I don't reason to go to the bible and yet you seem to see a reason to go to the bible And I'm wondering what that reason is So, okay. Okay. Good question because for me I've read parts of the gita parts of the koran But if definitely not given a thorough, you know cover to cover like my brother for example has So that's why I've had to stop throwing darts at something like the koran kill the infidel I think that's tremendously unfair just like it's unfair for someone to take exodus 217 for example You know a father can sell his daughter into slavery And say, okay, that's normative somehow for today What I'm trying to communicate here is if I you know when I came to the bible I tried to be as objective as possible for standing outside of it by saying hey look I can't see a god I can't access any of these types of truths with my five senses. This seems a little far-fetched I'm sorry What's that? I just want to know what seems far-fetched. I like to continue I just want the point you made earlier um that michael newdown made to me recently God just show up and that's evidence for you that just show up right here like that I could get in touch empirically or at least with my five senses No, my point in my point in making that case is that I would hope that we would agree that it's possible for god to appear right now and unequivocally present evidence for existence to all of us that god is capable of doing that if he exists, right? right Okay, that's the only point is that It's not happening despite we both agree that if god exists it could happen now That's independent of whether or not has god has reasons for that that are good enough And then you have to step inside of scripture and say, okay If there is a level of special revelation and if he wants a loving relationship Not as say the russian's going to space and saying up god's not up here Let's go back down to earth and tell everybody But instead it's more like for example shakespeare and hamlet shakespeare writing himself into the play in order to get to Know us and build a loving relationship with us as opposed to simply a raw display of power of hey god I'll believe in you and somehow everything will work out if you just show up right now because obviously that's a level of Cosmic bell boy Let me manipulate you, you know, it's the typical illustration of my friend Hey, if you show up and give me five bucks every time I see you that will prove your love and friendship to me That's what I mean between nobody's nobody's suggesting that What we're saying is I don't even there doesn't even appear to be a friend I could go to to ask for money It's not like I'm continually going to them and asking them for money. I'm saying there's no evidence for the friend Right I mean, you know, it would be one all I'm saying is that if god exists It should be possible God should be capable of clearly Obviously demonstrating with strong evidence strong evidence that I would accept strong evidence that everybody would accept Any moment and yet that does not happen or has not happened That's that's the that's the only thing that that I was saying on that point Because what I'm still wondering is and I have I have notes from from both openings But I'll set aside the one from last time and just focus on the stuff you said here today um You talked about finding things that were intellectually satisfying, but that's not evidenced um, you talked about there, uh There must be a beginning there can't be something for nothing, but that's not evidence and I'm looking for anything at any point That you said during your opening That counts as evidence including strong evidence because you you make a case for well, there is fine-tuning But you didn't really talk about the evidence that would suggest fine-tuning just that we can't move the dials and or or that the dials are all tuned specifically to allow our biological organic life But there's no demonstration a that the dials can be moved or that they are dials that this could have been Anyway, other than it is and if in fact some other life form if they were adjusted differently And some other intelligent life arose that intelligent life would think that it was designed for them The fact that you think that it's designed for organic life Rather than it just supports organic life You have to make a case and present argument for the intent of organic life not just the coincidence of organic life And what you said was you like someone else Can't abide chance and you went on to talk about morals and and principles and things like that which I'm sure we'll get to a ton but what struck me is When it you said that it makes sense to you but And and that it counters the things that you don't like you don't like the fact You're not willing to abide chance and so you come up with a counter to that You're not willing to abide the notion that maybe there isn't hope of an afterlife So what you've got is a god proposition that satisfies all the things that you're uncomfortable with But that doesn't mean that there's any actual strong evidence for the fact that something makes sense to us um Like I think my favorite thing that you suggested was that that there's so much about our lives that are wrapped up in love That it makes sense that we were designed by a loving creator and that's beautiful and that's poetic And it is utterly fallacious It's like saying uh that there's so much about my life That is so much about my body is made up of water that it's clear that I was made up by a water-based entity But while that's beautiful and poetic, it's not evidence It's not strong evidence and in every one of these cases where you listed some some objection fine tuning morality beauty In every single one of them. No evidence was presented. No argument was presented and all of them were just God answers it for me Well, I can appreciate the fact that god answers those things for you or that god serves as an answer for you But the debate is about evidence not about What stewart doesn't like and what god seems to solve for sewer. So where's the evidence? We'll say a lot of what you just said right there in terms of our subjective experience I believe if it's not god or some type of theism with some type of loving relationship pointing to an afterlife I have a tough time with my subjective experience connecting with objective reality And so I hear it's so fascinating to me because everything that you stated It is it almost sounded like I have a type of wish fulfillment going on Like I I just want these things to somehow god you complete them, you know meaning purpose justice in this world Hope beauty the bible being true It's so fascinating because I I do it is the exact opposite. I could see why you why you go there But I go there because these things press in on me Okay, let's pick one Let's so many of you saying that Pick one like purpose morality whatever so that we have something to focus on because I'd love to have that back and forth Let's go um Value value and meaning because value So for me If there's no mind that wants something there is no value We imbue things with value. What's the value of this pen? Well, it It has a kind of standard value in the modern world of Maybe 15 cents if you're lucky on the market But it's invaluable to me right now as a matter of fact that would it's value to me for taking notes during this debate Is immense and so the value of this pen is relative to how I perceive it and you can have a different value for this pen And if both of us cease to exist and and all minds cease to exist then this pen has no value Where am I wrong? No, I I would I would agree with that I think absolutely it's it's always it so from a psychotherapy perspective I can't give myself Value though when it comes to identity and I ultimately can't get A type of value that's sustainable from anybody outside of me But in the counseling office everyone always says Oh, just give yourself value and identity because your parents are definitely not going to give it to you And your art teacher's not But then I would say it makes way more sense if you put your faith in a god that's transcendent and personal and all loving And we can get to the evidence side, but it makes way more sense If he is loving you and that's a type of unconditional love But you're simply saying that value can come from and only does come from A human being that's an external source giving something else value. I'm saying it comes from a mind Yeah, and specifically desire Um and my value of things and my value of people is going to be different from somebody else's value of things in people um I The notion So you talk about, you know, psychotherapists were suggesting, you know, give yourself value. Well, I don't have a problem I give I give my life some value my I determine what the purpose and meaning of my life is to the best that I can Um, I wouldn't want an externally, you know imposed purpose And you know, there are people in chat right now who value my life at zero or perhaps negative It's it's fun to watch them flail around. Um, I value my life significantly more than that. I value Other people's lives when when you're talking about the frustration of people Stuck in a world where they they feel unloved or unvalued Would you And I realize that you're you're still studying and so that this is not Meant to to be a dig at all. Would you suggest they they Find an invisible or an imaginary friend Um that values and loves them If somebody was what If somebody was was depressed that their life had no meaning and value Um, and and they were and were toying with the idea of an imaginary friend that valued and loved them Would you Absolutely, and I don't have to call it Jesus and and god the theistic god Although I think that if you break all those down it makes way more sense But look at the untethered soul how many millions of copies that that has sold and you think of lindsay low hand And how she's pushed that book so much look at just the god-shaped hole To begin with look at now how in the past five years every single counselor is supposed to ask the question Are you spiritual because it has so much to do with value? Oh, I I would argue that no counselor should be asking that it's one of the reasons why I support the secular therapist project um because I want people's mental health issues treated with Good science and what no hang on i'm gonna backtrack this a little bit because I had the same discussion with somebody else the other day Spiritual is a word that annoys the crap out of me because it can mean almost anything to anybody And so when somebody says do you have a spiritual life? I have no idea what they're talking about But I will recognize that if if I let's say and let's say I was a Psychologist and somebody came into my office and they wanted to talk about the value of the the spiritual aspect of their life I would be happy to listen to them and talk to them and find out what they mean by spiritual because quite often I I would argue that You're you really like the phrase cosmic wonder it it probably popped up more times across the the The two openings in this debate cosmic wonder is great like I I have friends who are astrophysicists and I go out. I have a telescope. I've looked up I I have as much wonder as anybody that I can imagine about the cosmos and I can see Beauty and value and I can understand someone if they say When I look up at the at the milky way when I'm out in the middle of the Atlantic ocean Which was one of the most fortunate experiences of my life in the navy to be out in the middle of the Atlantic Where it's pitch black turn off the lights in the ship and see the milky way Few things hit you harder than that and I can understand someone saying that is a spiritual experience Because what they're doing is they're they're being poetic metaphoric. They're saying this Hits me to my core essentially That's one thing spiritual in the sense of you know Supernatural That's the one I need evidence for I'm fine with poetry. I'm fine with a metaphorical human soul even Oh, we have a spirit of inquiry. Yes, we do But that's not like it's not if there's a my brain and then here's that there's a spirit of inquiry right here That leaves it sometime and comes back, you know, when I'm when I'm not bored Yeah, okay, so I agree with that, but here's another thing pressing in on you. Perhaps when you are on your Naval naval ship aircraft carrier, um I mean a cosmic sense That's funny. They'll use that. I didn't realize I used that term more than one So I think gratitude for example when I had sweet susan black moron To discuss and this is kind of the point. I'm trying to make here with meaning and value And these things that press in upon us Perhaps you see it as wish fulfillment. I see it more. So it's pressing in upon us. I think Gratitude clearly points to I want to thank somebody or something And the act of Thanksgiving gratitude is more of a feeling Thanksgiving is an action When I feel grateful, I want to thank something now. Maybe that's my imaginary friend But why do I have that feeling of wanting to give thanks? Why does that giving thanks actually complete The feeling like c.s. Lewis talks about In a way it actually you feel way better way more joyful way more grateful when you actually do go about entering Thanksgiving for such a thing and then secondly Again, I think it's the objective or subjective experience Are they consistent or not and the christian worldview makes them consistent when it comes to meaning that I feel terrible talking Picking on poor sue. I mean, I love her hair. She's a great woman. But I when she talks about for example Look, I was pressing her a little bit on suffering And I said, what do you do like in the face of tragedy and suffering and she just sat there was kind of like Yeah, it's it's no good. But then I just look at myself and I say come on girl Get up and get on with it So and I see a level of inconsistency there and I also see something pressing in on her that Perhaps she's not acknowledging In terms of entering in yeah, sorry. What were you gonna say? No, I I I wanted to make sure you get time because I'll talk forever unless somebody stops me and I understand that so I feel a sense of gratitude when people do things for me I I don't see any reason to consider that evidence for or strong evidence for a god or anything else because At just as even as a purely selfish being I can use my own selfishness to to Serve as a foundation for altruism I don't need There to be some external force wanting me to feel appreciative of things. I can feel appreciative It's it's human psychology. It's it's recognition that I need other people in my life Somebody asked me today. Why should other people's lives matter to an atheist? And I I replied with Because you depend on other people other people's actions impact your life. What what steward does tomorrow May or may not have a direct impact on me at all But what steward's doing now does we're here together and if we were living in the same town or the same house Our lives would be interlaced even more than they are now when When I come on to Modern day debates. There's someone here James I appreciate you. Thanks so much for you know Sitting here and giving steward and I have platform to talk about this stuff The it's natural to for me to say oh Something good happened to me. There's someone I should thank for that And when something good happens that isn't the result of a a direct Person that I can identify. I understand how human psychology could go. Wow I don't know what person to ask. I should I thank the wind should I oh and then we invent a Transient mind to think. Oh, I'm I'm thankful for you know, I'm alive or that there's oxygen or whatever else I don't see that this is evidence for god. What it is is it's evidence that human beings um Work cooperatively and the way our brains analyze the situation or one particular situation is going to spill over to other situations So when it comes to the question of god then, you know, 87 percent of the world is still Theistic I think the secular hypothesis started by Nietzsche and then followed up by john lennon in 1966 When he said religion would go this i'm certain of but you look at the explosion of the christian faith in china And it's becoming more and more technological as well as scientific Why in the world is that the case is that just some sociological psychological phenomena? And it has nothing to do with with potential evidence for god I think a big part of this It's it's it turns into one big sociological psychological phenomena that's going on rather than a direct type of evidence Which I I agree. It's not I wouldn't say it's strong evidence here But for me strong evidence becomes Accumulative amounts of small evidence. That's how I think I mean you guys talk about how it's What do you guys call it? Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence I actually did a video about that recently pointing out the errors in that but yes, generally speaking Uh, and I think that kind of thinking is from humor, right? but regardless, I mean I think it's these things adding up So when you talk about strong evidence, I think you have to take the small things, you know Some would say, okay, the evidence for the resurrection is a very big thing But I don't know I I'm with I'm with say, um, planiga and swinburn on this I think it's a slow accumulation of That ends up taking us there But again the reason why I brought up the internal piece. I'm not arguing from authority with the bible, but I am saying If we are let's say if we get to the point of potentially even there being a god I think you have to look at the evidence for that god What is what does that god even consider as evidence in order to enter into relationship with him? So let's go to mark chapter eight for example in mark eight the Pharisees And religious leaders are saying give us a sign show up right now Come on. You did a healing You did a you know, you've been teaching and your teachings been phenomenal everyone's saying you're speaking with authority, whatever that means And yet he says I'm not going to give you a sign But he gives signs to the tax collectors to the prostitutes to the lame And so that's what I meant earlier where it's I could just be Hitting my head against the wall here over and over again looking for evidence And I think that's fair To an extent, but at some point I have to look at what is the god of the bible What what is he saying evidence is and is that fair whatsoever? And that's the evidence that jesus gives there in mark chapter eight Okay So we're back to to where we started a few minutes ago, which is you're like at some point At some point I got to figure out what the god of the bible says about evidence Why? Because he's god wouldn't you but you don't know that now now you've now you finally Retrap of a circular argument You can't say At least find out what the god of the bible says because he's god Because the whole point is to try to come up with strong evidence for god You don't get to just assume that there is a god and that the bible is god's word in order to give A reason for why we should consider the bible you have to present actual evidence Not just assume it you know you've turned you make your whole case circular Well, let me try and do a dilahante dodge and get out of this one. Okay I don't know what the dilahante dodge is. I'm totally kidding. I don't either I think it's I think it's been used in two different ways one is by a handful of people who think that I avoid Presenting evidence against god, which isn't my purpose and the other one is is something about me avoiding questions But I keep asking questions. We're here and the question is is there strong evidence for god? Yeah, you wanted to say I need to consider what the bible says I ask why and you say because it's from god and that makes this circular so we got to fix that Okay, I don't see how it's fully circular But I do see I mean the way you're taking it I do see how that circular but I see the the issue I have here is when I almost left the faith I had to I mean it gets to the point and I'm not saying you're not a humble guy I could tell you are a humble guy sometimes not always I'm awesome But it's this whole point, you know the reason why in the last 20 years I guess the theistic approach philosophically not necessarily personally The theistic approach to suffering has kind of won against the atheistic approach because Of the whole planning up project Which simply states if there is a god of the universe then that god could have reasons that we don't know about For why we are going through suffering and personally that's really painful to have to accept Especially with all the suffering I see I would never say to somebody who just lost a child Hey, god could potentially have good reasons for you to lose that child And yet from a shirley philosophical standpoint I understand how you can get there and I think it's connected to this one I mean at what point are we not are we never going to say with our finite minds And I seriously don't don't mean to simply just be trying to get out from underneath this one But with our finite minds at what point are we going to say you set the standard And if this manual to the car is truly the manual at what point are we going to say, okay? That standard is all right with me. I'm not going to be like the Pharisees getting these signs these healings You showing up right in front of me But hey, I'm okay with that. I don't know why I'm not And and maybe it's a lack of humility on my part because you're all for the outsiders and not the insiders You're always for the outsiders And supposedly the the prostitutes and the whoremongers get into heaven above all the religious leaders I mean, it doesn't seem fair to me. I mean, I'm a religious leader So so this this is what I'm talking about. I'm not trying to argue from a circular point of view But it's still it kind of gets back to the strong evidence piece of Okay, what does that mean and at what point does that actually fall off? And I know you said I don't know I'm not sure how much evidence So you see the struggle Struggles real all right. Let me let me let me address this because I want to make sure we're understanding this So I'm going to do my best to kind of steal man. We're saying On suffering People suffer in life. I think we're all agreed that To varying degrees some people suffer more than others. Some people suffer unbearably, but suffering is a reality And so the question then becomes why do we suffer? and you think that the Theistic proposition specifically Christianity offers an explanation for why we suffer, which is satisfying to you, correct Yes, I mean not fully. I always have questions, but sure Yeah, the thing is that Yes If in fact, I believed that there was a god who had good reasons for why I suffered then that would get me to stop saying Oh, well, why do we suffer? Well, god has some reason But I have actually in that scenario provided zero A evidence or strong evidence, but more importantly I've done nothing to explain suffering. I haven't essentially solved a mystery. Why is there suffering with a bigger mystery? I don't know, but god knows and that's good enough for me. So there's no explanatory power in that. There's no God has good enough reasons for suffering. Well, how did you rule out when you when you sit down to consider? Why do we suffer? How did you rule out? This is just the way things are that we live in a world of variation variations in temperature So sometimes I'm going to be hotter than other times variations in atmosphere. If I if I stayed underwater too long I'm going to be suffering This is A world that is indifferent to me and treats me fairly in the sense that I could get bitten by a snake I could get corona virus. Uh, I could stay healthy Maybe the question why is there suffering? Is the wrong question It's like, why is the sky blue? Because that's the way it is because of refract refractive light How did you rule out? That's the way it is or was this just a matter? Like you said before with other things of you didn't find that satisfying and and I ask because Whether or not you find an answer answer satisfying has no bearing on whether it's true on whether there's evidence for it or whether there's strong evidence for But why Why are there so many atheists though that would disagree with that level of thinking? But I mean, we'll go back to that in a second. I want to answer your question Well, first of all, I'm not here to defend other atheists. No, I got you If you want if you want to play that game, there's some really terrible christian crap I can saddle you with So so I would say Um, that's what led c.s. Lewis to the faith C.s. Lewis said I will never believe in a god who allows suffering and evil But then he said well, hold on what makes this evil evil? And why is there some standard that I'm buying into of evil? And why am I so bothered by suffering? We kind of shift scope because I wasn't talking about evil because evil tends to Carry a baggage of intent. So I was just talking about suffering Yeah, yeah, that's that's just I added evil because I didn't want to put work on c.s. I don't want to be mean But I suspect that subconsciously you added evil because suffering in your model Needs an intent. That's why god allows it that You have a hierarchical system where there's a god that thinks hey, I know this suffering seems bad to you But I know better and so you put in this intent behind it I view suffering as just a fact. I mean it's pain It's physical pain emotional pain. I did that wrong. I did physical pain emotional pain whatever But anyway continue Yeah, it's how the intelligentsia views meaning it's back to the meaning question too. I'm not I'm not scurrying because intelligentsia dealing with meaning in terms of let's stop asking it because these questions are too big and unless you enter an eternal Life or god in it becomes tremendously depressing But we let's let's go ahead and create our meaning. That's the second one. So either don't talk about meaning I see in our culture today Or let's talk about it But we aren't derived there's there's no derivative somehow when it comes from this meeting It's we simply create this meaning and to your point on suffering It's an issue for me of why I agree with you. Why does it bother us so much? Let's stop talking about it Because it it shouldn't be A big like do animals talk about suffering on a regular basis? I mean if there's if there's three gazelle grazing in the Sudan And there's two sisters and one brother and one of the sisters gets picked off the other two are going to look up Feel bad probably not feel even feel bad and just go back down to grazing I mean the suffering is not a big issue to them. So so why can't we do something something similar? But the reason why I find suffering to be So so powerful from a a Christian perspective Is well one sociologists and psychologists are saying Right now in the west more so than any other time in the history of the world Do we have so few resources to deal with suffering and pain from a psychological perspective? I find that troubling. I find that interesting Um, but I think so so I see an issue here something needs to fill it I would say the christian faith does because it's a suffering god who lived and died On a cross in the most excruciating way possible I don't think we have answers and I think the bible is horribly consistent Rational and realistic about that you turn to like a psalm 88 and it ends with Heyman saying death is my greatest ally and then lights out And then you have psalm 39 Something very similar in terms of god has never talked to talked about it's just i'm depressed I'm having this dark night of the soul experience or you take joe for example and his friends show up They're silent they do good for a week, but then they open their mouths And they try and explain a suffering to them when clearly there's no explanation for it And I think that is exactly the experience we have when it comes to suffering in the sense of we still ask questions It definitely hurts But we're not going to have Ultimate answers perhaps at times we will But many times on suffering there's there's no ultimate answer and that's why we get that example throughout the bible I think that's realistic, but that's my point Your your frustration is that there's no ultimate answer and i'm like what if it's the case that there is no ultimate answer I mean I am setting aside the gazelles because if there's And I don't know why we gendered them but Two brothers and a sister out Grazing and one of them gets taken out I can pretty much guarantee you the other two are not just going to sit there and keep grazing I don't can't tell you what their concept of suffering is Uh, but we do know who that animals mourn and uh fear for their life and that they suffer but when you say I I share your frustration that There there's doesn't seem to be a good explanation for suffering I just don't share your when there's not a good explanation I'll go grabbing for god's solution and when there's not a good explanation. I just acknowledge There's not a good explanation Let's keep looking for one and in some cases we have to recognize that maybe us looking for an explanation of why Is a failing of our of our brains because we seek intent whenever we can if the if there Was out in the jungle and the the brush starts moving We can either perceive of that as intent. There's a predator in the bush getting a rate of bounce on me Or we could just be the wind But if there's a predator and you assume it's wind you're going to probably die and then you don't pass on those genes and so we are the recipients of of the genetic code of people who are extra suspicious about The thing in the bush because if you're always suspicious about the leaves wrestling Then you run away and it doesn't matter whether it's wind or predator. You're not going to be eaten by that predator Now if we look for what's the bigger meaning That it assumes that there is a bigger meaning to be found and that's something that hasn't been demonstrated as far as I can tell I don't see I see a universe that all the evidence points to Doesn't care about us and I see a universe that There's no evidence that it's governed by any sort of benevolent or caring or thoughtful individual or that it's governed at all beyond the detectable identifiable What we call laws of nature and so while I share your frustration that There there doesn't seem to be a good explanation for suffering sometimes uh I can't I can't just stick a god in there because there isn't evidence for a god. I I it would be like saying You want to point to the bible My muslim friends want to point to the koran My Scientologists want to shut down all psychologists and claim that it's Z new and body fatens from before I look at it and say yes, there's suffering I'm more focused on how do we work together to alleviate that suffering What steps can we take to make this a better world than going gosh? Why is this happening because I don't see any reason to think it's a why question like there's intent behind it So what makes us think what made you think that suffering has an intent behind it? Well, wait just to get me right here. Okay I don't think it's the bible It we didn't pick the topic of Christianity rational. I know they can obviously overlap But I I would say the four gospels separate books Manuscripts manuscript evidence, but I would start with jesus reliability of gospels did the resurrection occur I I don't know why I mean I'm doing probably a little bit of an ambiguous job Describing this one to you, but I am simply saying what is god the the evidence that god gives us Okay, maybe here's maybe another example that'll help tom nagel He's mining cosmos last word. He's got a bunch of these best published books And he's known as like it's like christians are using him as an apologist even though he's an atheist And one of these points he makes is hey look nobody can be truly objective when it comes to the god question And I don't want to go so far as to say that he was actually referring to the bible. He may have been I can't remember But I love that line because again Evidence coming out of scripture in terms of how does jesus talk about what is evidence and what does it take to come to know me? A big part of it is what tom nagel's saying there is no one can come objectively speaking with no bias To the god question because everything about the cross is offensive Like every I personally don't believe you can become a christian if you don't find the cross offensive Because it's a savior dying for your sins. Like i'm not a sinner. It's like one guy said to me He said, you know, look I find rational reasons to come to know christ. I want to be a christian And we got through the good stuff then we got to sin and he said hold on here I've never raped or killed anybody I said, oh neither of I And and yet he said okay fine. I yelled at my wife once And this guy was like 55 And so it's the concept of sin and it's it's so not palatable obviously That I think that obviously what what tom nagel's getting at there's this bias here That we have to find a way to get through and I realize that that's tremendously frustrating for me and you to talk about Because that automatically is saying wow So there's something wrong with me or somehow I am not removing the blinders or So on and so forth But we at least have to acknowledge based off of I mean mary this time of year mary when gabriel visits She doesn't fully accept it at first joseph definitely doesn't accept it first Then you have roman 3 through 5 all about not accepting it and how it's not palatable Endless amounts of this so there has to be bias at least internally whether we think that's fair or not Is an entirely different question All right, that was that was on to your other point This is suffering. I'm confused because Yeah, I asked earlier for a reason why I could you should care what the bible has to say because I don't And it has nothing to do with whether or not it's palatable like you just talked about The jesus story as if it were confirmed true real Um, you know none of which has been demonstrated Mm-hmm so once again And and I I promise I'm not trying to be an ass or anything, but every time we're trying to get to strong evidence you're like Well, you've gone back to the bible again and what the bible has to say about evidence and we've never established why We should care what the bible has to say because I could pick up a koran there's one right there I imagine all my muslim friends would throw a fit because it's translated into english and they'll say that I shouldn't trust anything It says But I could look at what it has to say I could also look at what somebody in chat has to say There's several people in chat who think that i'm a raving idiot who doesn't understand anything And that the evidence is just obvious and they keep accusing me of knowing that a god exists Um, I could use their standards of evidence, but then I'd be an idiot And I want standards of evidence that are more likely to give me an accurate model of reality That's it. That's all I want is standard of evidence that give me an accurate model of reality Where is the good strong evidence? For a god Because I can appreciate steward. I can appreciate you. I You know, I I've debated your dad's wise and and met him. I like him. I like you We've never met till the day. This is not a personal thing I genuinely want to believe as many true things as few false things as possible And when you know if somebody said if the if the debate had been is there evidence for god I wouldn't have taken it So the whole point was is there strong evidence for god because otherwise you can say well, there's anecdotal testimonial evidence I want to know Why what is what is the strong evidence for god that that is such that I should Consider the bible or consider jesus because to me it's not about whether or not the message is palatable It's about whether or not there's strong evidence for it Do you want to go suffering and then there? Because I liked your sufferer. Whatever it works for you. Yeah, I think we might have just enough time for a quick Visit on both of those topics and then we'll go into the q&a. Okay. Okay cool, so I think suffering it gets back to the subjective objective question and it's a good one in terms of okay. My subjective experience Is painful? So is there an answer? And I think objectively speaking if jesus christ did exist Die on the cross enter a place where he was actually sweating droplets of blood Went under that type of excruciating sorts of pain dealt with complete inner and outer isolation That sort of pain don't forget. He was completely faultless in every way for this If he went through that kind of pain then that act has to be some type Of salve for us Some type of great resource for us in our suffering And I know many people I mean don't stay asked yet. I did not know him But he came to know christ through the cross Randomly just entering a church seeing across Getting on his knees because he saw this incredible beauty of actually the god of the world dying for his very enemies And so he wasn't through the head It was mainly through the heart that he came to know christ And I think he came through that type of suffering and sacrifice that so many people I know end up coming to know christ Through the emotional experience. I wouldn't say that's strong evidence But I think that is a type of evidence where the beauty of something like the cross Speaks to us now. I think does it make sense of suffering? Well, absolutely more because I think if there is no god then why does Why do we have to talk and think about suffering at all? Why do we have to talk and think about the meaning question at all? I'm totally totally with you But I think everything about us is hardwired to get out of this broken world And I think sin makes sense of that in a sense of sin has affected us I mean cosmically natural disasters sociologically with relationships psychologically with our own inner Insecurities and depression anxiety whatever you want to talk about See, I think all of that just makes sense of the complexity of this issue more so Then atheism does now your response to me. I'm not trying to give evidence I'm simply trying to answer the the suffering piece we could go to your second question after But does does that make sense from a suffering perspective because how does the atheistic perspective Make sense of us needing some type of response or wanting to get through this in a different sort of way How does the answer it better? Well, science answers it in psychology, which I would hope that you would be studying some That answers why we desire and want things we have a sense of fairness because it benefits us But there's a number of things to to kind of correct really quickly before we get going Um, you basically said if Jesus went through all this then that is sufficient explanation for why they're suffering, etc However, that's a big if hasn't been demonstrated. No evidence presented. No weak or strong evidence presented However, if Jesus suffered that that provides a an explanation for suffering Also, if the universe does not care about us at all that also explains suffering because it's there's there's no protection mechanism Everything is just fair of the two propositions one of those Doesn't violate Occam's razor doesn't appeal to the supernatural doesn't actually make a claim that would require evidence and not present it We will have to save sin for another time because I reject the concept of of sin entirely But also on Dostoevsky first of all when or how Dostoevsky Found christ or what he found convincing is utterly irrelevant and has no evidence But Dostoevsky, I'll point out was raised in the church went to sunday liturgies It's not like he just reached adulthood Saw across hit his knees and and was overwhelmed He was raised in this he was indoctrinated in this and rebelled against it and then found his way back So it's kind of mildly inaccurate to suggest that Dostoevsky Had all these troubling thoughts and then just found jesus as if that's proof of anything other than Dostoevsky is a human being who was suffering He was trying to make sense of the world and he like you which may be why you've reached out to him Finds that the world makes more sense for him if he has a God figure who loves him and cares about him, but the world is broken It's a great little narrative that puts everything in a package and ties it with a little bow And none of it is demonstrably true supported by evidence and may even be the case that the very question itself Why is there suffering? doesn't have There's no good reason to ask that question in the first place Or maybe the second place because in the first place everybody's going to ask it And then the second place they they'd be like, oh, oh, I addressed that already because the universe does not care about me I think what we can do is we'll give you a chance to respond to her and then Same thing quick response from matt and then we should probably go into the qna as we got a lot Yep, I'm good Okay, I mean I liked your response there, but I wasn't trying to give any of it I was simply answering. Okay. What is the resource of christianity for in responding to suffering? So I I don't know why you went across the board there I mean see the textbook testimony there of gustaski born into the faith 75 of people who are born into the faith end up leaving it here in the west at least 40 go back to the faith oftentimes because they find certain types of evidence whatever that might be And then when he's in this church, obviously he's the intellectual mastermind Of how many I mean of russia at least you think of toll story others, but It's not surprising that he came to the faith by counting up the sacrifice, but ultimately being Moved through his heart by the beauty of it. Now. Is that strong intellectual evidence? Absolutely not Is that is that even you know evidence that you and I would consider not necessarily that's simply getting at the beauty though of it Where you know say if matt de la honte was to say, you know, this god is a moral monster from the old testament Which I think you've said before yep I'll say it now the god of the old testament is a moral monster if he exists He advocates slavery genocide puts men and women Unequal etc So yeah, I will that's giving another discussion because sure and I'm happy to have lots of other discussions I just wanted if you really wanted me to say the god of the old testament's a moral monster I will happily say that just like I'll say that you know Other fictional beings like I'm not a fan of Voldemort but Although harry potter is supposedly influenced by the christian faith even though I know What's your name is is under some some heat right now, but I so um So I think these big things I know they're frustrating and look they're annoying to me, but It's not because the bible tells me so because I hate that saying just as much as you do And I I have had a long brush with fundamentalist christianity. Trust me. I have a serious aversion to it My whole point though is finding things like the cross if you find god repulsive How are you going to even take the step to even getting close to potentially accepting any type of evidence? That any whether it's nature Whether it's through the intellect the heart whether it's through the bible whatever it might be That's tom nagels point where we are so biased and scary and he says I am so unnerved because there are so many people On the faculty here at nyu who are so smart and have thought through the christian faith and are christians now again, that's not So so I I think just the attractiveness It's absolutely offensive. It can be oppressive in ways But dealing with all of that has to be At least a small piece of the puzzle here. I'm not going to the extent of saying look matt dilahante had a horrible relationship with his dad So it's the defective father You know theory that that's why he doesn't want a heavenly father to believe it I'm not going there like like that is so extreme. It's scary Going back to your I'm going to make just this final point and Good evidence strong evidence for god It's many of the things I said I guess we maybe I could have been smart based off of what you said Where I skimmed over too many. I look it's the add brain Maybe I hit too many topics just off the top, but I am glad where we went in this discussion I thought that was a little way No, I love the discussion But here you are at the end of it and you're and you're ready to present We are at the end of it and you just suggested you're ready to present your strong evidence No, no, no, you said more I thought I already gave it you said Okay, did not dig down into like the teleological argument for an hour and a half So my only my last one one of the biggest ones for me is what the early christian church was known for Why what was the motive? to Love live for and sacrifice for every single person not in your tribe, but on the face of the planet And that was because god became man died for us as an oppressed person and totally flipped the social order And it would be cool if anybody could present any strong evidence for it, but they don't Well, that's the resurrection debate You haven't proved you're okay. We can have a resurrection debate. I've done that before too There's no evidence for the resurrection. There's no way to investigate it. You can oh look it's an empty tomb Hold on Because I I see where you're going. I we need to stop there because George is desperate to get to the questions. Yes. Yes I think We if we if we want to do because we sometimes we do an entire debate Focus solely on the cumula. You could say I think it's called the minimal minimal facts argument for the resurrection That we can do another time as we've had mad on for that as well That would be fun But we do really want to jump into these questions want to say thanks so much everybody for your questions Thanks to our guests. They're linked in the description folks So if you'd like to hear more those links are waiting below for you And so with that we'll jump into these questions first want to say thanks so much from the first time So these questions some of these are from back when we tried to host This was last friday and so that's when the stream dropped and so this is technically a reschedule And so we do have some namely. Let's see Woody thanks for your super sticker if you're out there woody Mike billards thanks for your question said matt how many games of chess have you played during this debate? nice Jay mix on thanks for your question said can you believe matt has dealt with the same arguments and quote unquote evidence for over 15 years He's the real saint. Gotcha. And then average joe. Thanks for your super sticker and Mark read thanks for your question said for Stuart you cited emotions as as evidence Why should anyone base reliable robust evidence on what their feelings are? How is that reliable? Because any worldview would have to make sense this is a very complex world We are very complex humans would make sense from a rational standpoint emotional cultural it would have to address us as human beings rather than let's just go have a simply philosophical Debate about mumbo jumbo and somehow we'll get a god from that Gotcha, and thanks. Carl Sagan for your super sticker. Appreciate it. And then let's see Moving into today's thanks so much appreciate your questions folks Very very thanks for your super sticker appreciate the support zack Thanks for your question for steward said if you found out there was no god would you wrap m Order etc. I don't know what that means. I think this is like a slang that the young people are using I think they're maybe saying would you would you stop being a christian? If I found out there was no gun Yeah Hang on I apologize steward because I think we're laughing at the same thing if you found out there was no god, would you stop being a christian? Well, duh Interesting you go there though because I I have asked Some atheists if christianity were true, would you be a christian and way more than just one have said yes to me? I would say no because that's a different that's a completely different question The notion is there could be a god and that doesn't mean that i'm going to worship or revere it So I could be convinced that there is a god but not be a follower of that god However, it would be very difficult to be a follower of something that you know to be false And and the whole problem here is that the god proposition is Unfalsifiable, so you're probably never going to find out there is no god That is a shifting of the burden of proof to say oh, I'm going to keep believing until you prove me wrong That's not the right. It should work gosh him an honest aid. Thanks for your question said Where is the in all caps strong evidence? steward I sewer and we'll have to ask them Maybe we'll let we'll see if they were pleased that they asked All my fans on here. They sound like maddie D There are a couple of matt fans here. I'm smacking them down when they're being addicted to them, please JW thanks for your questions that hey You said slavery was wrong because it doesn't benefit the societies in the long term If slavery benefited the society for the long term would it be correct? Is that for me? I was thinking that I mean, I'll answer it Uh, it's strange but if the if you define um Correct as in the best interest of humanity Then if if it turns out that slavery were in the best interest of humanity, then of course it would be correct but that's Not the case. That's essentially like saying hey if you were to find out that god's not real Would you keep believing it's we know it's like saying if if it turned out that terminal Uh prostate cancer Were in the best interest of humanity would that when it then be good? Well, yeah, but that's not what terminal prostate cancer is and it's not what slavery is Gotcha Forgive me one. I do want to make a correction. I totally butchered this so what they were saying Zach was asking steward if he found out that there was no god, would you for example murder people and do other things like that? I think jordan peterson says Says that I've heard him say that before Actually in his debate with susan blackmore He said he said if there if you truly thought there was no god You would be very tempted to murder somebody who you did not like. No, I would not go. I would not go there He said that with me Did he oh So his whole thing. I mean, he's very fond of the notion that without a god belief even though His god belief is going to be very different from yours steward But he says without a god belief there'd be no art and that the you know secular humanism He equated secular humanism with communism And and didn't understand skepticism It was a mess But that fear that without god anything is permissible um, the truth is Prove that anything isn't permissible. We're the ones that give permission or not. We are the ones that it's like If you ran out in the middle of the woods With someone uh and and found someone living out there that nobody else knew You could murder them and nobody's gonna know and that the terrifying thing that we have is that we all realize That's true Somebody could get away with that and so what we need is some sort of cosmic observer That can find out and punish that person and so we invent one Gotcha And thank you for your question charles and solo who says I believe Now which one of the 30 000 christian denominations should I choose from steward knowing that at least 29 000 are wrong I'm worried not really I'd go I defer to john 17 here when jesus I mean the famous last words of a leader were supposed to be the ones that he meant the most and he said I hope they are one as you and I are one father And then I think if you go to first christians 15 3 through 8 These are the things of a first importance paul talks about That jesus christ lived died and rose from the dead So they're laying out all the majors of the faith, especially paul there and most denominations understand the majors But there's all types of many denominations and they've broken off and so if you've ever been to like scotland for example, and you see all the uh The cobblestone cemeteries like right there in the middle of the streets because a catholic Hated, you know a protestant and so pressed him to death I would say jesus is unpleased about that. So no, I would get into a church that has certainly the majors covered Um, I met a woman the other day who said you guys think jesus a lot at our church, but you know us down the street We don't talk about jesus at all So obviously missing some of the majors there that enter the majors And then there's all different types of flavors that I think make a lot of sense because there's there's cultural flavors that Fits in with different types of people Thanks so much and be one six street burner. Thanks for your question said matt I'm an atheist and I was wondering how you would respond to a claim that the book of revelations Coming true is evidence for the christian god Sure. Well, so first of all, it's not the book of revelations There's no s at the end It's the revelation of john of patmos and it almost didn't make it into the bible because people considered it the raving delusions Of a madman. I don't understand what you mean by As an atheist you're looking around and seeing revelation coming true one thing about Prophecy claims is that in order for a prophecy to be Viewed as an actual prophecy where somebody made a claim Knowing that it would come true and that it came true is First of all the claim needs to be specific answerable by a single set of Circumstances not prone to interpretation and not something that's readily likely to happen if I Is if somebody says oh, Jerusalem will rise again and and everyone on the planet continues to work towards Jerusalem rising again Well, it's it's not a prophecy just like when I order a steak medium rare and the waiter shows up with a medium rare steak he's not fulfilling prophecy that's fulfilling an order and so You would need to show that there's a prediction that is answerable circumstances and that those circumstances came true However, even if that were to be the case and so far i'm I'm not aware of any such thing that that fits that category What you have then is I don't know how that person knew that you don't get to just assume that they knew it because a god told them Maybe they have a time machine maybe and I mean but until we have these sorts of fanciful predictions coming true I mean, I I do predictions and mind reading on stage as part of my magic show on a regular basis I do things that look impossible on a regular basis Um, I'm maybe that's biased me to where I just am not impressed by someone saying Someday the united states will have a woman president Well, actually what we probably had is someday there will be a leader in a great nation who is not man and And then you know if uh kamala harris ends up being president that oh, it's fulfilled prophecy. No, it's not that's not fulfilled prophecy That's not the way prophecy should work. It's it's like oh, let me flip open to the horoscope for the week And see if I can make it fit my life. That's not prophetic Thanks so much and carl say again. Thanks for your another super sticker. Appreciate it said zack said Thank you for these debates. I absolutely love watching these discussions. Thank you zack and thanks to the speakers all credit to them and so Tesha thomas thanks for your question said you can debate all the apologists on the planet as much as you like You're not going anywhere unless you go through this video Quote one two three four five proof of god Okay, a little advertiser for their video zack. Thanks for your uh, super chat said stewart How do you know the bible you read today is what was originally written dr. Bart ermin describes ways in which Scribes have altered the text Hmm um kumran scrolls You could go there. I think then you'd have to go to Um, obviously checking out the how they were circulated In terms of how they were chosen as well. No, it was not 325. It was not the council of nicaea. That was a debate over the the trinity and um And so yeah, I would definitely start there Thanks so much an apocalypse here says can steward explain what he means by quote Step inside the bible unquote. It's a lovely poetic phrase, but i'm not even sure what it means well, so if we're just trying to talk about deism Or some kind of a cosmic principle Then we could just have all these all these different types of debates and and talk about expectations and what evidence is But if we're going to talk about the christian god, it's not because the bible tells me so and we just have to accept that and say Yep, there's the they told me how to experience the evidence and believe and so i'm just going to blindly accept it No, instead we have to like tom nagel talked about who's an atheist And I think matt was matt was getting too as well in terms of understanding. I was very uh Let's just say not very clear and early on what I was trying to say but looking at What is the process in terms of looking at the evidence and reaching the point of actually trusting god trusting jesus christ And how is that how are you supposed to do that then you could say okay? Is that fair or is that just as ridiculous in terms of what does jesus say evidence that leading to faith really looks like? Gotcha and thanks for your question apocalypse here Oh, we got that one converse contender Glad to see you or hear from you converse says matt said god isn't a contender for an explanation because it's Spectral is he saying you have to show me supernatural in natural terms No, and and I didn't say that god isn't a candid explanation because it's spectral When we list candidate explanations, we say this event occurred What what known explanations for that event do we have and we list those and then we list what potential explanations That that we aren't necessarily known yet, but could there be what i'm saying is that the god hypothesis The god claim has never been demonstrated to actually be a candidate explanation for anything Saying why how did the universe come to be and you say oh well, it's god Well, how did you rule out? Any number of other fanciful things that we can't prove universe farting pixies or whatever else So we don't consider the universal farting pixie universe farting pixies as a candidate explanation and we don't consider god as a candidate explanation just like if there is a um A cup of iced tea sitting on my desk and it showed up without my knowledge um I don't get to include ghosts as a candidate explanation Of the candidate explanation someone else in the house or someone else around me has probably brought me an iced tea Now that's extra weird and it didn't happen by the way because i'm here alone I brought it myself But I don't get to just say well, it could be ghosts Well, you're only saying it could be ghosts in the sense that you haven't yet ruled out ghosts And for an unfalsifiable proposition an untestable proposition you'll never rule it out So we go with the candidate explanations that have been demonstrated And so if a fire starts we look at we you know an expert in arson Gets to look at all of the evidence and try to determine how this fire started and at no point will an expert in arson say I think god started this fire And if there were strong evidence for god if there were strong evidence for if there were strong evidence for god The arson expert would have to consider that as an explanation and yet we don't which is an admission There is no strong evidence for god gotcha and creptis Cropitis s thanks for your question said Stuart what is the statute of limitations on mutilation of children in the name of your cult Can I still sue? Several decades after my circumcision was forcibly removed or after My circumcision happened without my consent Yeah circumcision is a big one right now. I'm noticing I would Is is the question also as broad as just Uh, I mean child sacrifice in general Or is it literally just circumcision? I think they're just referring to that. Yes Just circumcision Yeah, routine infant circumcision is it is an abomination. There's there's no medical reason to do it There's no reason to violate someone's consent and autonomy Um, and and that's strange, but it's a holdover from jewish tradition It doesn't well, so it harms obviously the ability to have certain amounts of pleasure Yes, as It what is it a myth that it helps in terms of cleanliness and Well, there there is an argument true It has to by removing the amount of skin. It has to help with cleanliness Just like I cut off my right hand. I have one fewer hand that can get dirty The problem here is that I'm pretty sure It's never been particularly difficult to get someone to clean their penis or in the shower I'll just leave it at that Gotcha. Thank you. It sounds like I've got that one settled. All right, uh, let's see this one comes in from Charles in solo. Thanks for your question steward. What method do you use to determine that your idea of a god is real? How does your god interact in some measurable way feelings? Don't count How does god interact? minus feelings I would say one of them is is thinking out The narrative of my life I mean, I guess this is close to feelings, you know, the christian understanding of meditation is Furiously think i'm not talking about christian mysticism per se, but a lot of meditation in the bible The greek is furiously think so who you are who you were Where you're headed if I furiously think through that rather than i'm just simply, uh, you know a kala Uh, what do we call it a uh moist bag of chemicals? Just accidentally popping up here bircher mussel style on this rock floating through Outer space. I don't want to think about that too much And maybe I shouldn't think about that too much if I don't believe in god So thinking through the narrative. Yes, absolutely that includes Again, who is jesus? Is his character reliable? Is it attractive or is he some kind of schizophrenic or egomaniac? What were his claims that he claimed to be god? Are the gospels reliable? Did the resurrection actually occur? Is there evidence for it? That's where i'm ultimately headed towards in understanding and believing in the christian god See those are all questions that can be answered By presenting evidence and can be solved by presenting strong evidence So maybe we should have debates and discussions about Pick one of those topics and see if there's strong evidence because everything you just said Is as far as I can tell not supported by strong evidence and so I'd like to see it So one of the things I like about you is I notice unlike most atheists You really dig into scripture And you go pretty deep Some type of of debate or discussion on Jesus's character divine hiddenness is obviously a lot in the new testament and Parables all of that I like you interact with and because that needs to be taken seriously I just did a video like a month ago or show about Jesus's use of metaphor and and why I have objections to it. It's a it's a fairly short kind of interesting thing But yeah, I I so I I know earlier today. I pointed out why should I care what the bible has to say? You know, uh, and I want to I want to get more so the first first I apologize. This will be a slight diversion the first debate I did with your dad I'd been sick for a week and so I sat there on a stool and your dad is this wonderful animated And he's out leaning over and everything else and I was like, oh my gosh, this is just going to be terrible because I can't move I want to be slightly more animated and earlier. I I know I said Oh, you've got to give me a reason to care about the bible and yet I've spent most of my life studying it in great detail So it's not just like a hey, I'm ignoring your holy book until you give me a reason to no I'm I've spent a lot of time studying it for very good reason because I used to believe it and because you believe it And because people around me believe it The question that I asked earlier only serves to be Yes, but why should I care about it as instructive or authoritative or proof of a god? Yeah, okay Yeah, you got it. Thanks for that and thank you as well for your question from rodent last name who says Matt does it seem that most god arguments boil down to quote? I have a girlfriend. She's in canada Yeah inside joke So, yeah, it's it's the one thing that kids I do have a girlfriend. She goes to another school. You don't know her that type of thing when you when you don't really have I don't think it all boils down to that Um, I I think that when we say I have a girlfriend. She goes to another school or she lives in canada We know we're lying. I don't think steward is lying. I don't think steward knows. He's lying I because he's not lying. He's presenting what he sincerely believes I think he's sincerely wrong and he thinks i'm sincerely wrong. I suspect But it's not just a I've got a girlfriend in canada Gotcha. Thanks so much and boi Thanks for your question This one is they say the problem with seward's argument is that he argues for a christian god who is external studies in metaphysics and mathematics prove God is internal Oh, sorry I have a feeling that both east steward and matt both of you guys would disagree with this person I guess I uh, let's see happy I mean if you guys want to respond to give you a chance to respond otherwise I uh, I frankly i'm not super familiar with what they mean Do they mean like internal in the sense of like subjective that god exists for each person or? Yeah, it sounds like a contradiction. I don't know I have no idea other than like It's it's this question where it's like two different disciplines have proven that god is internal and my view is I'm not aware of any reliable discipline that has proven anything about a god Gotcha. Thank you And uh, so see so we'll go to the next one happy dude. Thanks for your uh, super chat said don't forget to hit like And subscribe thanks for your support. Yeah, so we do a lot of Other juicy controversial debates if you're like us if you're a little sick in the head Hit that subscribe button as we have many more to come And I want to quick mention it one more time as I had mentioned at the start The bottom right of your screen you will see we are setting up We're in contact with michael schermer and inspiring philosophy about a potential debate next month To watch it live for only three bucks You can hit that kick starter which i'll put it in the chat a kick starter link And i'm putting in the chat right now and pinning to the top as we are Believe me We're going to make it to that threshold to cover those speaker fees and host that debate So we're really excited about that one and again, that's linked in the description as well So next up. Thanks for your question. This one comes in from Farrah and thallas 42 Who says not trying to sound snive but the arguments that i'm hearing from steward are god of the gaps In feelings steward. Do you disagree? No, yeah, I I see why they would say that But it's just a difference in perspective Because I would i'm going kind of the angle of the the urgen hobber mosses And a bunch of other atheists who talk about there's an awareness of something missing And that there are these these big issues that are emotionally laden that are pressing in on us Versus a type of wish fulfillment. Oh, I just okay. No, that person's totally wrong. Never mind But where matt was going in terms of These things are missing and we just kind of wish that they were there, but in no way does that mean that they're true Gotcha. Thank you. Holy crap. I kind of I need to say that Did I get that wrong? No, you got it exactly right You you basically just said Matt is looking at these things saying all of these concerns that we have that we're going to a god to provide an answer for Maybe there is no explanation for that's I mean I I'm paraphrasing a bit But I wanted to say that because I can't recall the last time I sat down on modern day debates or anywhere else with an interlocutor Who even did a remotely good job of steelmaning my position as a matter of fact one of the most common questions that comes up In all of these is just to ask each of us to steelman the other person's position And I have I have a I've been wanting to put together a list of clips because Every time I've been asked that I've done my best to steelman them And you're the first person that I can recall who actually kind of steelman my position. Well, which is I I see the same things weighing on me. Why is there something rather than nothing? Why why does life seem so oppressive or suffering for some and my answer is I that's that's the way it is I'd rather focus on dealing with it and seeing how we could make it better Rather than reaching out to a god, which doesn't add any explanation because if you say They're suffering because god has a really good reason why they're suffering A there's no guarantee you'll ever find out what that reason is There's no guarantee that you would understand it even if god were to explain it to you And so the position that you're actually in Is you went from I'm really anxious because I don't know why they're suffering to I'm no longer anxious because somebody else knows why they're suffering and I'll just trust them That's the case Oh, and that could be a great crutch By the way I am totally honored by such a medallion. You just gave me but man just quickly If I would have stuck to teleological If fine-tuning column as well as moral obligation Do you find those more convincing than these intangibles? Like meaning purpose beauty sacrifice suffering, etc Do do either Resonate more with you. Yeah, if there were if there were like empirical evidence Related to The facts of the universe that's going to be more impactful than I need an explanation for beauty and I'm just going to go But but I think we have explanations for beauty I think we have We don't know everything about the brain But we have a good understanding of our psychology and when somebody looks at something and says, oh, that's beautiful Well, why do you think it's beauty? Ah, it's because God has imbued you with a sense of beauty detection Except that's not the case Because beauty is subjective There are things that we that we generally all agree on as human beings I don't either there are people who who aren't going to find person x beautiful or whatever But a rose it's become poetic because pretty much anybody in the history of the world has looked at a rose and gone That's beautiful. Is it the most beautiful thing? No, maybe some people are allergic don't like the smell Maybe they don't like the color of the shape. I don't know But I don't see a need for an explanation Beyond this is the way things are and if there is an explanation beyond this the way they are That's something would need to be demonstrated and not just assumed Give you a quick really quick response of Stuart that we have to go to the next one No, I would agree to a level. They're definitely subjective on another level. I mean, there's some type of moral anger and outrage over something like You know notre dom burning to the ground And I think there is a level of objectivity of looking at something like a sunset But the activity and then the moral piece of say the notre dom I think is interesting Can I make one five second thing Sure somebody in chat said I like this still honey much more than the atheist experience still honey Those people are the same There's no play acting what you're seeing is a difference in interlocutor and someone who's willing to actually have a conversation And not just yell over and preach That reminds me I have to say this because I was so encouraged to read it uh nifak A door are thank you and let me know if I missed from so sorry friend if I did but they said thanks to you And the debaters. I think this is one of the best Civilized debates you've ever had learning from each other. Thanks debaters. No fights needed find your own So so glad you guys do have I was thinking of it as I was like listening to you guys It's like you guys do have a pleasant, uh Like a pleasant chemistry of interacting with each other and so which is odd because we'd never met I'm gonna give it to stewart because stewart is clearly a very nice person You too right? Gosh Some good one. I only love atheist experience matt. I thought something, you know drastically different. Yeah, that is a Jack and jack levy thinks your question said stewart plenty of animals suffer elephants come to mind as a non-ape example Uh, and they grieve Is god a good explanation for their suffering? If so, why? No Is oh, I thought they're going a different direction Now dolphins there are other animal groups that definitely grieve and many groups will It actually head home to where they were actually born and die there So no, there's all all different types of beautiful forms of suffering and the animal kingdom I just still see a level of difference, you know another moral piece of that is obviously we're not going to hold animals morally culpable if a lion eats a lamb And so there's just differences in the in the animal kingdom, but I don't want to go all evolutionary psychology on us um But what is that kind of where the question was going or am I matt am I missing that? Where was that? Where was that? I'm not sure where the question was going. Can you read again one more time? Sure, they said plenty of animals suffer elephants come to mind as a non-ape example That grieve um, so it's kind of a cross between suffering and grieving Mentioned and then they said has got a good explanation for their suffering. Oh Okay, so so I would say Well, I would say no because I don't think god's a good explanation for anything But for someone who views suffering generally and says why is there suffering and the answer is because there's a god Who has a good reason to permit suffering then? Yes, it applies to non-human animals as well You got it. Thanks so much and this one comes in from dave Dallafior says steward. We need jesus to be saved from whom? ourselves Got you next john brawn says John bran says steward. How do you reconcile that god's? Unconditional love was only for his chosen Or for the people god's chosen people in the old testament and in the new testament His quote unquote love is only for those who believe Then No, it wasn't it wasn't just for the israelites. I mean they were a light into the gentiles The israelites were judged just as much as other civilizations and groups And then john 316 we all know it for god's love the whole world that he gave someone who said that whoever believes in him Shall not perish by the eternal life. And so it's it's a it's a rather inclusive type of salvation Rather, I mean as opposed to getting into too much Calvinism We we should probably we should probably stick a pin in that because you added a word to john 316 Now first of all, I don't care that much To be clear, but you added you added a word you added whole world World not just work because it's sort of john's for god's love the world You added whole but then there's other messages from jesus that says, you know, I've not you know Who have come to i've not come to the law sheep of the house of israel And so I find it interesting that you added a whole world because it I don't think it is literally in there, but I think it is Metaphorically in there and I don't you know That's like i'm not going to make an argument about who jesus came for or not because I don't think he was here to come for anybody But it was funny to to have that because I was like in my head after years and years of sunday school I'm like for god's love the world that he gave oh wait He just said whole world and then he told me down 20 other verses going is that actually biblical I've been i've been singing that song uh He's got the whole world in his hands to my my daughter. Maybe that's how the the slippage happened. That's that's good though Gotcha next up. Thanks for your question. This one comes in from matt c who says Stuart even if you had strong evidence for a god, why worship a god that condones slavery? Well, he doesn't If he did it was way less than the other civilizations But you know you go to so one of the trickiest passages would be like an exodus 217 for example where a man could a father could sell his daughter into slavery And you got to look at context context is king we always learned in hebrou class and seminary And if you look at the context the father it's a type of medicare that's going on it's a type of social security That was meant for a tremendously. I mean plagues were going on as well as a tremendously um The poverty was just it was rampant and so it's not selling For example his daughter into sexual slavery No, it was a type of servitude where that daughter would go for a time and actually Make money so she could eat and not starve to death So you have to parse out all of these look at context like numbers 31 Arun Ra pushed me really hard on and we debated three times in the last couple months And you got to look at numbers 25 before it otherwise it does sound like the levites can just rape whatever female children they want to Next up being sure hang on Everything that he just said about slavery is absolutely false with regard to the bible Yes 217 is a particularly troubling Verse but 217 also includes the notion that By the way, the beginning exodus 21 talks about Hebrew servants Hebrew slaves not gentile slaves There were different sets of rules for this and verse seven says that if a man sells his daughter as a servant She doesn't go free as the male servants do so the rules for Hebrew servants were that if you have a male Hebrew servant he serves you for six years and you have to let him go unless you trick him Into saying that he loves you and wants you to be wants to be your slave forever In which case you pierce his ear and that marks him as your property forever But verse seven says that the female slaves so female Hebrew slaves aren't let go after six years as the men's servants do That's the problem that's that that's the part of that verse that's particularly troubling problematic But if you go down to further in both exodus 21, you're allowed to beat your slaves as long as they don't die within a day or So your slaves are your property. They are your money. You can pass them on to your children's heritage Let's not pretend that this was a freaking social surface Okay, this was owning people as property that you can pass on to your children And if you beat them as long as they don't die within a couple of days, no punishment She'll come to you because those people are your property Leviticus 2544 the children the strangers it says during with you of them You shall buy of the families that are with you which they began in your land And they shall be your possession and you shall take them and as an inheritance for your children after you to inherit them Let's not pretend that the biblical thing about slavery was anything like A social service for people who were poor and starving. That's disgusting We're reading different books matt. We're reading different books. I What book are you reading because I just read the verses word for word. Here's a short robot No, no, I know I that's why I had to say gosh Aaron gotta do this pretty quick. We've got a lot of I said you might be right. Let me go check on context. Sure enough. He was totally wrong And so for me, I think you're right I have a so you did name one that I have a I have a tough time with And that has to the whole beating piece But I think our modern sensibility so often get in the way when it comes to the old testament So for example, so for example I mean, I feel so sad for someone who says that our modern sensibilities are getting in the way Whether or not it's right to own people property Okay, so every other civilization whenever you won the spoils of war you would immediately rape all the women, right? No For the Israelites Meanwhile, the bible advocates for that which is go every man every woman who's known a man and every man But keep all the young virgins for yourself No, I'm biased towards morality and human beings and I'm biased against Making people property making women inferior. I'm biased against And then we got to move the next question moderators trying to talk. Okay Go ahead James. We'll have to do it in another debate Next up, thanks for your question. This one is from ante Kythera, thanks for your question says why does a unique religious teaching provide evans for the truth of their central theology? All religions have a unique teaching Who's that for? I think that's for you Because they're saying like if it's just because it's unique doesn't mean it's true in like the theology Sure Absolutely, yeah Okay, gotcha next. Yeah, go ahead. You'd agree No, I would just say the I mean Yes, you have to look at internal consistency I think you have to look at internal things like for example when it comes to the reliability of the gospels I mean embarrassing details You have to look at I the logic has to come into play so so many things have to fall into line You know when I'm debating a muslim for example and and they'll just throw out there Well, the Quran is the perfect book and it gave us everything we have today In terms of science I mean I struggle with that one although there are beautiful details internally speaking in in the Quran next up. Thanks for your question We've got a lot of questions Okay, but I didn't get to get my slavery in yet On several occasions today. He's mentioned reliability of the gospels But there's been no evidence that the gospels are reliable and since we don't have originals There's no way to demonstrate the gospels are reliable. But go ahead if you want a chance to respond Let's see We can probably do it if it's short and pithy steward for both those topics I meant to say if the gospels are reliable Because that is not okay today's debate topic Gotcha, and then the other one you mentioned you didn't get a chance to respond on slavery Oh, no, the only thing I was going to add a lot of what matt said it takes a lot of unearthing you have to do But one is I mean look arranged marriages That was the way it was done back then right and so for the israelites you had at least one month You had with the woman you brought in after beating a certain Tribe civilization in a battle you had to debate that you had to date them or be with them You couldn't have sex with them for at least one month and then you can Marrying and then you'd have to provide for them so drastically different Moral Well next one if matt if I give you the last word on every single on You did not give me the last word every single but keep going I do it. I'll do it at the end I'm trying to give steward the last word on the ones that challenge him Otherwise, it's almost like it's teaming up on him because it's both the super chatter and then also the response from you So dave dahlia for thanks for your question said if god is love and keep love keeps no records of wrong Then what is sin? If god is love and love keeps no record of wrongs Well, yeah, that's why jesus had to come and die for our sin in order for our record not to be kept against us Now there will be a judgment day to matt's illustration about killing that guy in the woods That's why I everything in me wants there to be a judgment day not necessarily that there will be a judgment day but talk to slaves and slaves got through What happened in our country just a matter of not even like what 200 years ago They got through because they believed there would be a judgment day and that's why you have someone like thurman at harvard in 1946 having this incredible address saying That judgment day and the cross ultimately was not just inspirational, but it was a supernatural thing that got slaves through what they had to go through Got your next question. Thanks for your question from anti Let's see. I think we got that one bruce wilk says steward. Do you have thoughts on james white and reformed people at a apologia No, no, I better not because our camera man is a good friend of his and we disagree on issues Gotcha next question. Thanks for yours duke of sahib says steward. What are your thoughts on the eastern orthodox church? God god bless them Gotcha and next thanks for your question. This one comes in from Anti kathira says the cosmological argument requires a theory of time But that would invalidate general relativity. Why do you choose to believe? Relativity is wrong Say it again. It would involve time That's right. They said the cosmological argument requires an a theory of time as opposed to you know, like a b theory of time They say but what would invalidate general relative or but an a theory of time would invalidate general relativity Why do you choose to believe relativity is wrong? I don't know that probably knows I'm not holding that relativity is wrong. Yeah Gotcha next joseph clark. Thanks for your question says does the prior discipline of logic Namely science as secondary expand the epistemic scope of reason to consider the universal invariant and immaterial Who's that for? I don't understand that question either. Not certain Let's see. They said, uh, we'll give it one second shot They said doesn't the prior discipline of logic expand the epistemic scope of reason to consider the universal invariant and immaterial They're talking to the wrong people because I don't think the prior discipline of logic expands anything You're talking about the foundation of something. It doesn't expand it. It serves as the foundation Gotcha. Thanks for your question. John brand says matt fellow texan was christian for 30 years found you I think they're saying. Oh, okay. They're saying matt. I'm a fellow christian was I'm so sorry. I'm sleep deprived you guys. Uh, they said matt I'm a fellow texan I was christian for 30 years Found you a couple years ago and your talks have helped me in deconversion and I want to say thanks Thank you. I'm glad it was useful anti kathira. Thanks for your question said matt daniel 11 is too specific of a prophecy fake I can't tell if they're being sarcastic or not. I I don't So first of all, I don't think that daniel 11 or anything in the bible is particularly Specific, but there's no question there. It just says fake. So congratulations on a non question Gotcha. Thank you for your question. This one coming in from duke of sahib says steward if the apostles wouldn't have died for a lie Then why did joseph smith die for his claims about Mormonism? Sure, I mean it's just jim jones. It's The branched avidians of david crash. It's the same old story the deal with the The apostles and so many eyewitnesses was They wouldn't have died for what they knew to be a lie And that diff that differs them as well from Any of isis too who are willing to give up their very lives They're not they're not dying for what they know to be a lie. It's pretty radical difference This this ties into what I said about steward earlier that I don't think he's lying Gotcha Thanks, and want to quick remind you as we have a few more questions left Both of our guests are linked in the description folks So if you'd like to hear more from them You certainly can at those links that are at the very top of the description box And this question comes in from johnny v Who says jordan peterson's famous lessons to young men about making their beds and washing their PPs counters the claim that many guys wash their pps. Okay. Well I didn't know that jordan peterson encouraged people to do that But If I could just say this, I mean Matt I don't I met you may know this but there are students like Who are getting masters at berkeley? Brilliant guys who are being led to christ through Jordan peterson, and I don't just mean one or two But this is like this is like a strange movement going on and and peterson's not even a christian So there's something. I mean, I think I think he speaks obviously to the archetypes and Metaphors and all of that But I think he also connects to the psychology and the emotions and saying There's something missing there that that may be part of the reason Why he's able to do this or it's just the holy spirit doing this or You've just done is presented an argument against yourself And and the the veracity of your positions. How do I do that if jordan peterson a non christian? can Can speak in the sort of way that entices people to become christians Then what we're talking about here is psychology because jordan peterson is not presenting any evidence for christianity weak or strong And so what what you're talking about here is he's saying something That encourages people to ask the sort of questions that you asked And that they're more likely to come up with these sort of answers that you've come up with None of that has anything to do with whether or not there's strong evidence for a position Okay, but that's still my position. Yeah, no, but today your position is that there is in fact strong evidence and you've presented none It's really short and pithy. I can give you a chance to work, but it's got to be super short No, I think it's just it's an awareness that something is missing He leans so much on talking about meaning and purpose And I think the judaeo christian values Archetypes as well as just this metaphorical substrate Is is just so strong for people that they want to buy into it rather than what matt was saying which could be right Which we could just be you know the collocation of of adams that have no purpose in meaning And uh, and so the subjective doesn't match the objective Yeah, uh, let's see. I want to go to the next one. I hate I know this is hard I I I really hate being hard on you guys in terms of like Not uh letting it go further, but just to try to get through as many questions We do have another one from johnny v said jor Oh, we got that one Ian you tubian thank you said I believe in the christian god But I must say matt puts up a great argument and love and I love his debates Stuart great job brother james cute cat buddy There's a cute cat and next alex ha but I couldn't agree more This is honestly it's been a really enjoyable debate and and so I I have been uh I couldn't agree more with the people that have said they've enjoyed this interaction with our guests So alex hovland thanks for your super sticker johnny v says We've got that one red alert says stewart if you believe in the supernatural, which is emotionally based How can you rationally conclude that such events? Or beings exist Wouldn't those go side by side I Think that they're maybe like trying to imply or suggesting that the emotional and the rational are Kind of mutually exclusive or to some degree maybe That wouldn't make any sense to me Gotcha next henrik van New and huesan thank you said stewart does it not cause Pause that some atheist tried to find good reasons for god instead become atheist After investigation I think they're saying like Yeah, so like you know when an atheist says hey, I'm gonna like really look into this looking for the evidence and then they nonetheless Remain yeah No, that's why that's why I love what matt said earlier in terms of we don't want to be biased proselytizers From an atheist or a theist being that instead we want to be genuine truth seekers And wherever it leads you then then that's what you believe The truth is Gotcha, and thank you for your question this one it comes in from it's like so language and programming says john 3 18 if you don't believe you are condemned and If we read that really quick just these so which says whoever believes in him is not condemned but whoever does not believe is condemned already and Thank you for that. I'm not sure if anybody wants to respond to that, but if you Next michael, let's see. Okay Trolls um bruce wilkie. Thank you for your question said i'd like to see matt debate someone who actually does exegesis hmm Nice little backhanded It's weird too because As someone who has repeatedly pointed out today. I have no reason to care what the bible has to say Uh a debate about exegesis is completely irrelevant to me what you need Is is a demonstration of why this passage no matter what it means should be considered relevant to my life You don't just get to jump past that to let's have a talk about what this passage really means but Gotcha and harley quinn says if owning people as property was handed down by a Holy and good god to a shame culture in the old testament But it's not permissible today. You're engaging in moral relativism not objective morality correct And I'd also point out and I apologize sturt, but I wasn't going to let this go Sitting around laughing and smiling while talking about how the bible advocates for you to capture your wife From the people that you just slaughtered Basically what you're describing is rape Her consent her autonomy her values her desires are completely irrelevant She is just a prisoner who becomes a wife and to applaud the bible for suggesting that hey You need to treat her lie treat her nice and not have sex with her for a while Is absolutely disgusting because you don't have sex with somebody until they consent Not because you freaking captured them and a laugh and smile during that Pronouncement of a grossly immoral thing that is in the bible is pretty bad No, I was laughing that I couldn't get my word in there. I wasn't laughing at the content So is it wrong to capture a wife? Obviously an ancient irishan culture that's how it was done moral relativism and I would say in agreement with you Arranged marriages. I have a lot of problems to that too I don't know more my position doesn't have me have me advocate for any of this stuff yours does Well, and maybe that's an improvement Could be if we go to the new testament I think there was a tremendous improvement on understanding. I mean how god dealt with that culture I love how somebody in chat's calling me arrogant at the same time while i'm defending humanity Next Jesse shodell thank you for your question says why did jesus need to die for god to forgive our sins? All right, sorry about that. I think I butchered it again They said why did jesus need to die in order for god to forgive our sins? matt Sunday school Fifth grade Sunday school here because all of sin and fallen short of the glory of god Sin is brought into the world by man and we require redemption Also, because it's a fictional account that makes people feel like they owe something when they don't Does any part of that makes sense to you? Sorry keep going james That was that was the whole question I think they're saying like if you're I think they're trying to argue that for example if humans forgive we usually don't Demand a punishment for the person who perpetrated but they're saying but why does god have to have jesus we do those sometimes Like if you go to jail That's your penalty and you get out We we are capable in some cases of forgiving people after they've served their time and done their thing I I'm not really sure I get that there's a lot of things to object to with regard to the notion of forgiveness and sin I don't know that any of that really jumps into today's debate about strong evidence for god and I suspect I'm happy to have Many more conversations with steward, but I suspect that Our view on that is not that far apart It's just he thinks there's a god and I don't but with regard to what's actually just um I wouldn't imagine that we're light years apart on what is just Gosh and thank you for your question this one comes in from uh, let's see But steward if you want a chance to respond to it, uh, dude, do you get what the what they mean though? If you it sounds like uh, but it sounds like matt's kind of playing um The christians Matt I think matt kind of answered it, but jesse schrotel thanks for your question said No, we got that one I en you to be in thanks for your question said steward. Why does god bless some atheists or bad people with a great Earthly life, but some hardcore christians have it really tough on earth Hmm. There's many layers to that one Is cosmic sociological psychological brokenness Two it's common grace seen through an old testament character like cyrus god works through atheists three How do you I know So this is one of the the benefits of being a a pastor as well as an unlicensed psychotherapist and that is I do get to experience I mean a lot of the pain and we didn't get to talk about this but matt went here a little bit I mean there's a reason why books like antifragile or the coddling of the american mind and so many more of these are coming out And I think a lot of that has to do with our secular age There's there's not a response to suffering yet And this is shown if you go sociologically throughout cultures that there's a radical radical difference And so for me, I think that antifragile a great book and antifragility in general or falling upward is uh Is um ray dalio's book and basically it's what can you learn in your suffering is suffering all that bad No christians are not called to be masochists But there's certainly we can grow in character Physically emotionally and definitely in our relationship with god in suffering So there's many different facets to that question. It's a good one Super interesting that is I do want to uh respect the time of our debaters. I also want to apologize So sorry matt. I was uncharitable earlier when I said that uh that you that I That you were responding to every single question that was far from the truth And so i'm so sorry for being so No, it's okay. It's it's one of those plus I I prepared after you said so because I knew that I was going to have to jump back and forth on Some of these questions So next time I have this hat for when I'm in secular mode And I have this hat for when I'm putting on my old uh christian ideas and and you oh For all of sin and falling short of the glory of god But that ain't real see it's I come with props. I'll be here all week. Please give your waitresses Appreciate that. Thanks for your flexibility and forgiveness and I want to say folks both of our guests Are linked in the description. So just a final reminder for that. I want to say thanks so much everybody for hanging out with us Thanks for being patient with that delayed start. I really do appreciate you guys especially Uh, you know, I have to tell you it's I'm the the most like frustrated whenever we start late I'm the one that's like honestly no joke. I it drives me nuts and uh, it's oftentimes because I myself am Not super timely. So we do appreciate your flexibility and your support folks. It's always a fun time here We hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you're from as well christian atheist or Whatever strange creature in between you happen to be so thanks so much folks And with that I want to say it keeps sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable. Take care everybody