 And we're back. We're live. I'm Jay Fidel. This is Think Tech Hawaii. More specifically, this is history is here to help. Today, we're going to study African American history in the high schools of America. How much does it matter? Various possibilities. Anyway, okay. So for this show, we have Carl Ackerman and Russell Modder. Carl is, what shall I say, a social studies historian kind of person. And Russell is, well, I'm going to let Carl introduce Russell in a moment. Okay. So Carl, would you introduce Russell Modder so we can know what we're dealing with here? Yes. Russell Modder is a distinguished historian who's done his graduate work on Jimmy Carter. But among other things, he teaches at the wonderful and one of the best schools in the nation, Elani School. And one of the subjects he teaches, which is the subject of our discussion today, is African American history. And Russell is an expert in this area, has brought many speakers into Hawaii. I mean, this is really uncanny because it's kind of expensive to come here. But even I as a historian of Russia count on Russell to give me advice because he's such a thoughtful and well versed historian. That was good. Welcome to the show, Russell. It's nice to have you with us here. And it's nice to be able to talk about history. And it's nice to be able to talk about this subject because I think this is the subject we have to keep on talking about until it gets resolved. And it's not going to be resolved anytime soon, is it? No, it's not. History always changes. The past is not dead. It's the present always raises new questions for us about the past. So I suspect this will never be resolved. But I'm glad that the nation is having a conversation about these matters. And that's the important thing really. And for our students, it's important that they start raising questions about these issues and reaching some conclusions themselves. So what is the history? I mean, what is the history of teaching African American studies, if you will, in the high schools of America? Because, you know, the Civil War didn't leave us with a good legacy, I would say. And there were people who wanted to fight it all over again and still do. And part of that battle is taking place in the schools of America. So what about teaching African American history? Has it been, you know, under obstacles of one kind or another? Well, sure. I mean, you know, I agree with you that the Civil War, in some respects, failed to be resolved. But, you know, the Civil War was a time of real promise. The post-Civil War era was a time of promise. And history is not, doesn't work along a timeline of uninterrupted progress. Sometimes we get two steps forward and then one step backwards. And I think that's the history of racism in this country. So I think that, you know, your question about the history of African American history in this country, if we look at the 1960s, I think that's really when the historical profession and also people who were interested in advancing this idea of African American history began to prevail upon colleges to offer Black Studies options for students. And I think since then, there has been a really rich historiography on African American history and African American studies. As far as African American studies and history in the high schools, you know, the textbooks respond in the 1970s and the 1980s by including much more African American history in those textbooks. But typically it's been compartmentalized. So with an African American studies course, we're really looking at a way to weave African American history into American history in a much more consistent way. People don't disappear during the Great Depression, for instance, you know. So, you know, I think that's the purpose of African American history in part is to ensure a perspective that goes throughout American history. African American history is American history. Yeah, but you know, when you say that we kind of got conscious of that in the 1960s, you're also saying that between the time of the Civil War in the 1960s, we weren't really conscious of trying to teach Black history in the schools. We turned our back on it. And then you mentioned the term racism, which I think, you know, is part of this whole discussion. Because although there was, you know, an enlightenment right after the Civil War and, you know, the end of involuntary servitude, the fact is there was still racism and it grew. And it grew in the time of Woodrow Wilson and it grew in the 20s. And we were back to some, you know, previous, some period previous to the Civil War. So we have racism, you know, strum right through American history. And maybe we awakened a little bit in 1960s. But you know what, the thing to me, and I'm really asking about this, is if we teach Black history in the schools now, or any time after 1960, we're really saying there is still racism. If there were no racism, Russell, would there still be a need to teach Black history in the schools? Oh, sure. Because racism can't be separated from our past. And that always needs to be studied. So, you know, there it is. You know, we don't have indentured servitude any longer, but we still need to study about indentured servitude in, you know, the early colonial period. So the need for studying racism, I think, is always going to be there. Yeah. Okay. I would have to agree with that. Now, we've seen an upturn in racism, at least expressed racism in this country over the Trump years. And maybe it was there before, but he expressed it. He caused it to be expressed. And part of that was this thing about critical race theory, which seems to be, in my view, racist. I mean, that is the controversy over it. We shouldn't have a critical race theory, because we don't want to talk about race, and we don't want to talk about racism. And, you know, that's not a happy thing, is it? Where does that get in the way of teaching African American history in high schools? Well, that's a really good question. And, you know, I think a lot of times when people talk about critical race theory, it's a kind of fuzzy concept, right? And as you probably know, critical race theory really emerged in law schools. And, you know, it's... I haven't been to law school since 1971. And that was a master's program. So you can't, you say that I know about law schools today. Okay. But, you know, look, racism was built into the law. I mean, that's what Jim Crow was all about. And if we think that somehow we have escaped the legacy of Jim Crow, I think we're fooling ourselves. So, yeah, I mean, I think that the whole critical race theory discussion has a bit of a red herring quality to it. It distracts us from what we really need to be talking about. And, you know, in my classes, you know, I do talk about fair housing issues, redlining, that sort of thing. And those are the issues that I think have been discussed within that critical race theory idea. And so we owe something to the scholars who have opened up those questions for sure. We need to know what we're talking about here. Precision is really important, I think, you know, when we talk about these matters. Well, it seems to me that everybody ought to be exposed to this conversation, because that's the way you deal with racism. You learn, you learn what has happened historically, the problems that have arisen historically. And then you find solutions in studying history. That's why we say history is here to help. History reveals the problems, but then the discussion conceivably, hopefully, reveals the solution. So when you have these classes about African-American history, I guess everybody attends is an elective. What do the non-black students get out of it? Do they walk out of your courses with a new view of the world? Yeah, so this is a good question. I mean, who takes the course? You know, Jay, I got to tell you that in my career, I've been teaching 27 years at Yolani School and I've never seen a group of students who have been so interested and so politically aware as this group of students, you know, probably since the 2016 election. So students of all different backgrounds are interested in these matters. And they're interested in them from the standpoint of wanting to change the world around them. But they also want to find out who they are. You know, African-American studies is a way to help answer the question, what does it mean to be an American? Not just what does it mean to be an African-American. These students want to find out who they are. So, I mean, that's one of the, one of what was one of the most pleasant kind of discoveries that I made when I first offered this course 20 some odd years ago. I'm teaching other courses in history of Yolani. I guess you are. What other courses do you focus on? Sure, I teach AP US history. I also teach a history of American popular song. And I teach a course called History of the 60s as well. They didn't have those courses in my high school. I'm really lucky to be able to teach in an environment where, you know, our head of school says, hey, we want you to teach the things that you're interested in. And to be able to do that is just great. It's not even like a job. How about your academic career? What's your focus on there? Yeah, so I graduated from the University of Hawaii and a degree in history. I did my master's thesis on Jimmy Carter as Carl mentioned. So I was always kind of a history of the American South kind of a person. But I was also interested in presidential history. As an undergraduate, I took a lot of Russian history classes too. So I was interested in American foreign policy there. I went to Rice with the idea of doing more work on Jimmy Carter and then I also went to Columbia to study at the Institute for Research in African American Studies. So, you know, those are my academic interests really. That's great. What a great background. Yolani is lucky. So Carl, you know, just what you were teaching social studies, including history at Punahou. That's the other school. Did you have this similar experience here? What were you focusing on when you taught those subjects? Well, you know, Jay, Russell and I and another wonderful man by the name of Josh Rapoon. I'm sure you're familiar with the Rapoon family here in Hawaii. Very prominent family and tarot farmers to boot. But we taught a European history class one summer. And, you know, a guy who was often in the news came in on the bequest of Russell Mauder, a guy named Timothy. Timothy Niftali, exactly. Yeah, who, you know, it's all over the news and CNN and, you know, took over, I think, the Nixon Museum. Am I right there, Russell? Presidential Library, right. So, you know, it was a glorious class. And, you know, you can approach history in a variety of ways. Currently, at Punahou, and I can't speak for Punahou, because as you know, Jay, I retired there two years ago, but, and I'm now just an independent historian and author. But what's nice about Punahou is that they subject history courses with a different angle. For example, I taught European history through Russian eyes. And one of my colleagues taught European history through art. But just to make a comment, and by the way, they Punahou, at least at the time of my leaving, did not have this class, which I think should be a course at every high school in America. And by the way, Jay, the College Board is preparing an advanced placement African American history class. And let me say two things about that that I want to get back to Russell, because he's a real expert. One is that they're testing this out at different high schools throughout the country. And I'll let, I don't want to steal Russell's thunder here. I'll talk about that. And the second thing is, you know, just from, you know, a lay historian, and I'm not a specialist on US history the way Russell is, but I would say that the African American experience starts in the, in the pre-revolutionary period and works its way all the way up to the contemporary period. And how could you not have an African American history class when the Civil War is so central to our history as a country? I mean, what was that about, really? You know, what was the, what was the controversy, right? And so, you know, I just think that it's absolutely wonderful that this is coming about. And I would, I would not do due diligence to my friend Russell Modder by saying, I've sat in and has class on several occasions, which includes art and literature. And as I mentioned before, many guest speakers and how he convinces these people to come from the mainland. And one of them, Jay, just as an aside, because we live in Hawaii, he takes them out of the boat to go fishing. And the guy catches a swordfish, you know, so that guy wants to come back to Hawaii. So in any case, Russell's class is really quite marvelous. And I hope that Punahou follows Russell Modder's and the wonderful example at Elani School. And we, we've been friends for a long time. There's not an ounce of schoolism in any of us because, you know, if there was an ounce of schoolism in me, you know, I would never talk to my Stanford educated niece. And I just don't believe in such things. But anyway, I'm going to turn it over to Russell to let him talk about the college. Russell, we want to, we want to go to your class here, call it a case study. And we want to start it whenever you start, whether it's 1600 or thereafter. And we want to finish where you finish, which could be right now. It could be, you know, perspectives into the future. So where do you start? Where do you end? What is the sweep of your discussion of African American history? Well, as Carl mentioned, Jay, you know, the course is designed as an interdisciplinary course. So we're looking at history. We're looking at literature. We're looking at art. We're looking at music. We're looking at dance. So, and this is what the College Board has in mind with AP African American studies as well, you know, and interdisciplinary is valuable because it's able to draw students in who might not be interested in history, for instance, but they might be interested in art or they might be interested in music. So there's a little something there, I think for everyone. You know, I open the course by talking about race and what my mentor and friend, Barbara Fields at Columbia University calls the ideology of race. And the idea is that race is not based on any kind of scientific fact that that race is really a fiction. And it was a fiction that was necessary when the Americans and their revolution said that all men are created equal. What they were saying there with that idea is that we're going to organize our society in a different kind of way. Your status in society is not going to be determined by who your father was, as was the case in virtually every other place in the world at that time. This was something new. And standing in the way of that proposition, of course, was slavery. And it's a very convenient thing to have an idea called race that allows you to say all men are created equal, but also maintain that institution of slavery. And so I start the question. All men are created equal except that some men are created more equal than others. Yes. Look, ideologies don't have to be true. They just have to make sense. So if you have a bunch of slaveholders who want to maintain those slaves, maintain that property, this is the way that it was achieved. It was able to reconcile that fundamental contradiction. And so race is an idea that unfortunately Americans have become all too attached to. And so this is the first thing that I do in the courses is talk about that idea and get students to think a little bit differently about that idea. And of course, we do hit the colonial period and the Revolutionary War period. And we go through American history as perhaps we would in a conventional class. But along the way, we're reading Frederick Douglass. I was just going to ask you about that. That abolitionism, it seems to me, would be a really important part of this course because that too has not been resolved. Absolutely. I mean, Frederick Douglass was the most famous American orator of the 1850s and 60s. He was the most photographed American of the post-Civil War period, I would say, and perhaps even before. So students need to know about him. They need to know about Booker T. Washington and and W. E. B. Du Bois. They need to know more about the Harlem renaissance and musicians like Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington. They need to know about Shirley Chisholm. Shirley Chisholm ran for president in 1972, the first woman to run for president. I want to come and audit your class. Yeah. You come in anytime, anytime. And what about civil rights? What about Martin Luther King? I mean, it's not exactly current history, but it's very important to follow on the abolitionist movement and Frederick Douglass and all that. It's a similar kind of analysis where civil rights all of a sudden through Lyndon Johnson becomes codified. That's an extraordinary event. And in query, how do you treat that in terms of an event that was related to earlier things like Frederick Douglass and later things like all that happened under the Trump administration? Well, you know, Jay, for historians, context is everything. And sometimes we forget about that when we take a look at figures like Martin Luther King Jr. You know, we think about Martin Luther King right now as this kind of this warm fuzzy person, sign of a kumbaya kind of fella, but you know, King was a radical. He was a radical in the tradition that Frederick Douglass was a radical. I mean, Martin Luther King Jr. helped reshape and revolutionize Southern society. So, you know, by challenging Jim Crow and ultimately making Jim Crow illegal, you mentioned the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965, which restored voting rights for black people. And this, you know, this was a fundamental change. It was also a fundamental fear of, you know, for a lot of white people, especially in the South during this period of time. So, you know, I think taking a hard look at Martin Luther King Jr., taking a good look at Malcolm X as well, and providing a context, you know, for how those men acted in that particular moment is important for students to, if they're going to reach any conclusions about that legacy. You know, it's not everybody agrees with that. There are people who don't want to see this taught in the high schools. They don't want to hear about it. They don't want African Americans to quote, replace us. And therefore, you know, it seems to me that your course ought to include that in terms of the, you know, the kind of, let's attack the school board. Let's take books out of the library. Let's make sure we don't cover the subject at all in our course offerings. What is on the minds of those who would oppose education that way? Let me ask you first, Carl. What is on the minds of those who would oppose education? And it's in many places, many states, many communities, there are uneducated people trying to force their way into the classroom. Well, Jay, what makes this course so appealing, even for some of those folk, let me answer it this way, is because it's going to be an advanced placement class. And Russell's so modest that he's not mentioning this, but Elon has been picked to be one of the sample schools. They don't just offer AP courses. They test it and do all the statistical information. And so, and there's a man, by the way, responsible for the AP courses. And he's quite remarkable. And he should be mentioned here, Trevor Packer. And he's quite remarkable and big on this new course opening up. But, you know, I mean, this particular course, I think that people sometimes are against certain types of history because it doesn't agree with their ideology. And that's the bottom line. And for some reason, they feel threatened for one reason or another. And this allusion to critical race theory is just the most obnoxious thing that I've ever seen come out of the sort of right, because it's not based on anything. There's no critical race theory being taught on K through 12 level. That's just terribly ignorant. Now, what the right is correct about is this notion of the left on the universities going way over and just, you know, being so sensitive to everything and that, you know, normal discourse can take place. And Jay and Russell, if I ever use those pronouns that people are attaching to their names, I want you to take me out and shoot me. Because that's just ridiculous. It's ridiculous. And it's being used now in, you know, across America. And I'll leave you with this, Jay and Russell. I want Russell and Jay, you guys to have a last word, but Shirley Chisholm wrote a book and it was called Unbought and Unbossed, which was one of my favorite books, like I think I read it in high school. And I think it describes the three men on this panel. Jay, let me just jump in and uptail a little bit on what Carl just said. And, you know, unfortunately, I think in our national life today, we live in a time where everybody thinks they know a lot about everything. And that's true on the right. I think it's true on the left as well. And what I really want students to do, whether they're in my African-American studies class or my AP US history classes, come into class with a little bit of humility. And, you know, if you think you know something about something, check that at the door and proceed with an open mind and check back when you've actually done a little bit of listening and done a little bit of reading and most of all, some thinking. And so, you know, that's what's so kind of distressing, I think, about our conversation today. Because people have made up their minds about things about which they might not know a whole lot. And I think a little bit of humility would go a long way in solving that particular problem. Let me ask you a question about how we should deal with those who don't want to teach whatever it means, you know, critical race theory, or for that matter, African-American history in high school or otherwise in colleges in the United States. And of course, the ones who want to take the books out of the library and otherwise appear and vociferously attempt to change the curriculum at school board meetings. What do you say to them? If you were there, say at a school board meeting, when this came up, what would you say to them in terms of trying to find a resolution? And I'm not, I'm not saying they're right in any way. But for example, if you don't agree with the way I, I as the teacher, cast the history, African-American history in the United States, why don't you tell me how you think I should cast it? Why don't, you know, why don't we hear your side of the story? Or why don't you just leave the room because we don't need to hear the kind of rhetoric you're delivering to a school board? What do you say to them? You know, Jay, it's funny, you know, sometimes people who don't want to confront the ugly parts of our past, they do want to preserve the stuff that they think is good. And I'm all for that, too. I mean, I'm, I mean, I think that building a society and a government along the principle that all men are created equal is a great thing. And it's something that we ought to be proud of. But you know, the question is, who is going to decide what gets preserved and what gets thrown out? You know, you sometimes hear white Southerners talking about preserving their heritage. Well, you know, I'll know a lot of black Southerners. And so, you know, when you're talking about Southern heritage, what are we really talking about when in a place like Mississippi or South Carolina where we're right now 35 or 40% of the population is black? I mean, I think just asking those kinds of obvious questions might go away toward bridging that gap that exists between people who are afraid of the unpleasant parts of our past and those who might want us to confront it. Back in the day, in my life anyway, it was a surprise to find a marriage between the black and the white. But it happened. And then you looked again, and it happened more and more. And in Hawaii, which has been a leader in that sort of thing, I mean, everybody marries everybody, which is a wonderful thing that we all learn and we relish. And we try to export, you know, that kind of view. Short story, I went back one time to the Museum of Natural History and waited online for the Hayden Planetarium. And I looked at the line. My wife wasn't with me. I looked at the line and I noticed that all the couples on the line were mixed. All the children on the line were mixed. Maybe this was a certain strata of educated people who were on the line to go to the Hayden Planetarium. But it struck me that New York is very diverse now and very mixed. And so my question to you is, over time, doesn't black and white marriage intermingling, if you will, have an effect on the phenomena that you just described in the South? Look, Jay, if there's one thing we know about Hawaii is that we're all invested in each other. And, you know, part of it does have to do with people intermingling, right? And, you know, the thing is, is people have done this for a long, long time. One of my favorite film clips from the Selma March is, of course, King at the front of the line, along with several other leaders wearing lei. And, you know, I had a conversation once with Dickie Wong, who, you know, the great disruptor of Hawaii politics. Dickie was a union leader at that time. And, you know, he decided that he absolutely had to be at Selma. So one of his friends who was a teamster truck driver, they got on a plane, went to Alabama. So they were there. Hawaii was there. And there's this great sign that the people from Hawaii brought to that Selma March. And the sign said, Hawaii knows integration works. And that was 1965. And, you know, it wasn't until 1967 in loving versus the state of Virginia that the Supreme Court ruled that laws that prevented people from marrying each other based on so-called race was unconstitutional. And, you know, for kids in Hawaii and for people in Hawaii to kind of confront that fact is astonishing, that in 1967 it was illegal in some places in this country for people who loved each other to marry each other. So I mean, I know that was a little bit of a divergent from your question. But, you know, those are the surprises, I think, that history confronts us with. And, you know, today young people, certainly those young people that I teach in Hawaii, the idea of people marrying one another, you know, across the color line, or same-sex marriage, those things are taken for granted by our young people today. And, you know, when they when I'm hopeful that when they get in charge that maybe these won't be issues any longer. From your lips to God's ears, because I think it's deeply ingrained in American society, and it isn't going to go away anytime soon in states, which in states which now run the House of Representatives, those states. And I, you know, you talk about educating people, but any change in education, any change in the way school boards work, takes years and years. So yes, what you're doing in certain states would be very effective and important. But in other states, it's hard to get to the front door. How do you get to the front door? Do you need legislation? You need some sort of national action, not to say that it's available right now. It is not available right now. But at some point, do we need legislation or action? Do we need a court decision on the Supreme Court? It would not be available right now, but maybe later, to say that this will be taught? Boy, that again, it's a good question. I'm not a politician. I'm a teacher. But it is distressing that my colleagues on the mainland are, you know, they're facing a lot of trouble. There's a lot of trouble out there for teachers nowadays in the classroom. It seems like there's always somebody watching and somebody willing to complain. And, you know, again, it's not just from the right, but it's from the left as well. You know, Jay, I mean, it seems to me that this moment that we're in where school, where boards of education have been captured by people who are hostile to education, that happened quite suddenly, I think, you know? So I'm hopeful that perhaps the loosening of the grip might happen just as swiftly. I don't have an answer about how that could happen. You know, parents' voices are really important. They're important in our school. They're important in independent schools, for sure. But I think that parents have got to step forward and, you know, say their peace when they think that something is wrong. Isn't that the truth? You know, it's another show, another discussion. But, you know, parents should be invested as I thought they were years ago in schools, not just, you know, do the latchkey thing and leave the kid and the teacher to work it out. They should know what their kid is studying. They should know how well their kid is doing. They should talk to their kid at the dinner table, leave it to Beaver, and find out how the kid spent his time and what it was all about. One other question that comes to mind about this is, you know, we talked about it. We fashioned the title of the show as African American History in High School. But just listening to you, it seems to me that it need not be limited to high school. What other grades? What lower grades should be involved? You know, I think that lower school, grammar school teachers are aware of these issues. At Iloni School, we're certainly aware of them too. And, you know, I remember, you know, going to the library as a kid and borrowing books as a nine, 10-year-old and reading about Jackie Robinson and Thurgood Marshall and John F. Kennedy, you know, that kind of thing. You know, kids have questions, you know, and we ought to present material to them that raises questions for them, right? And I mean, that's the whole point, isn't it, is for an education to help people answer questions that they have. You know, I do want to say one thing, though, about Jay, as you were talking, you know, I thought about what people think about teachers in this country. And I'm afraid that we're at a point where teachers don't get the respect that perhaps they deserve. And certainly public school teachers don't get the respect that they deserve. They're professional people. Yeah, I mean, maybe there might be a few teachers out there who are bad teachers, just like there are bad doctors and bad lawyers. But as a class, as a group, you know, teachers ought to be listened to because they're the pros. And part of the problem when school boards get taken over by those who know best is they tend to close their ears to what teachers have to say. Oh, I think that's such an important point and consideration. We've seen a number of articles about that, about how teachers are leaving the field. They're not being paid enough, but that's only part of the problem. Oh, I think so too. Treated with respect. And they're credentials, their training is not being respected. And they're being told what to teach, what not to teach. Have they given a primer on everything they can say and not say in the classroom? People who don't know better. May I use the term crisis? It's a crisis that we're losing out of teachers. It's a crisis that they are losing their, what do we call it, academic freedom. And thus our kids are the victims. I completely agree with that. I was really lucky to teach at Yolani School where we weathered the pandemic really well. We were very lucky. We had great leadership at our school. And being in Hawaii too was a blessing during the pandemic. My colleagues on the mainland, especially in the public schools, I'm afraid, that was a bad period. And it was rough. It was rough on teachers and it was rough on students and it was rough on parents as well. And we need teachers as you say. And I agree with you that it's not just about the money. Money's important for sure. But it is about respect. And we're in a labor market right now where people have choices. And it's distressing to see good teachers leaving the profession because they just don't want to deal with the kind of atmosphere that I think has popped up in the last three or four years. Yeah. I think it needs immediate attention. We have a variety of talk shows that deal with what's happening in Congress and the White House and the Supreme Court that's on a regular basis every week. And invariably on every one of those shows, one of our speakers, sometimes we have two, three, four people contributing, invariably on every one of those shows somebody says, this is all a matter of education. We would have better citizens and they in turn could vote better. And they could make better decisions on citizen input, voter input into how the government works. Bottom line though is changing education to provide those concepts and to improve the classroom experience is not an overnight affair. And arguably it takes decades to do that if you start from organizing the Department of Education in a different way and setting up more freedom for teachers and so forth. But it's not as if you could make a magic wand on this and teach better citizens. How do you do that? Part of this whole discussion of teaching African American history in the classrooms of the high schools and maybe the junior high schools is to make better citizens. That's what it's about, really. How do you do that on a national basis? Jay, I think one of the things that I try to do as a teacher and I'm committed to is I'm not there to tell students what to think. I'm there to teach them how to think. And I think the profession would do itself a favor by constantly reminding its critics who have captured school boards that that's really what we're doing in the schools. So when I'm teaching my African American studies class, I'm not teaching them what to think. I'm teaching them how to think. They won't remember the facts and the little pieces of the course once they leave, but they'll remember how to think. And I think that's what we do as teachers. One last question is this and I guess it runs through our entire discussion is that you want to talk about African American history and thus African American issues and especially African American issues today. It's been politicized. And even in a liberal school, you can make a comment as a teacher that will be seen as politicized. You could run down white supremacists and find white supremacists parading outside the school. You could talk about Black Lives Matter to somebody who thinks Black Lives Matter should exclude all the Jews, for example, and then you find people parading outside your school. So you are always walking a fine line of being charged with politicizing an historical and civic minded subject where it's an open discussion. You want to help people learn to think and so forth, but you always run the risk of being charged with politicization. Is this a problem? Look, I have to say that for me at Iolani, this is not a problem. But I understand what you're saying here and it does present problems for my colleagues on the mainland for sure. Look, I agree with you that we're in a highly charged political atmosphere now when it comes to education. But education has always been politicized. I mean, if we think about the Jim Crow era with Black schools and white schools, I can't think of a more politicization of education than separating students along the color line. So we've always dealt with this. I think that what we need to remember is that there are, when we're talking about American history, and when we're talking about African American history, when we talk about racism and anti-Semitism in our classes, it's there, it's in the history, that there are, that's a principle that's violated when people go down that road of hate. And that's just not up for discussion in my classroom, right? And it shouldn't be in any classroom. And in a lot of ways it's against the law in this country to, I mean, you can express those opinions if you want to, but when you act in a way that violates someone's civil rights, you're going to be violating the law. So it's distressing that we're polarized, we're going to get through this. I think that the discussion that we're having now as contentious as it is, I think that we're at a point on the, the pendulum has swung in an extreme position. It will swing back. We're going to have new problems down the road for sure, but I think people of goodwill can prevail. I'm optimistic about that. I mean, Frederick Douglass was optimistic. Dubois was optimistic. King was optimistic. So that's where my hope is. Good for you, Russell. Good that you're doing it. It's a great contribution, not only to the school and the state, but the country. We all ought to be talking about this and like this. And I really appreciate your participation in it. Thank you. Thank you so much, Jay. Appreciate it. Aloha. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktechawaii.com. Mahalo.