 Okay. Hey everybody. Today we have Ervin Ang on the channel. And so Ervin is a coach. He helps freelancers in copyrighting and coaching as well. And basically he's here to teach us today how to analyze and construct highly converting copy. So really a pleasure to have him here today on the channel to teach us something. So we're going to learn something today. So you guys sit back and relax. Okay. So I'll just pass my time over to Ervin first. Let him introduce himself and then he can go over his content as well. Okay. Ervin go ahead. Yeah. Hi everyone. Nice to meet you. And one of the thanks especially to Jonathan for allowing me to do this presentation for his audience. So for myself, a short background about me is I actually started off as a freelance marketer. Then I had my first breakthrough as an entrepreneur in freelance copywriting for doing for other businesses. But right now actually I coach other copywriters on how to become a better freelancer overall in the business aspect and all that. Yeah. So I prepared this very nice presentation for you guys just to really go through what is the thinking behind a actual full-time copywriter so that even if you have never done copywriting before or you plan to hire a copywriter, at least you know this guy whether he's good or bad. So I feel yeah that's what I have for today. This masterclass I call it is another copywriting thing. I wanted to think how can I hope everyone in right even though I know it's going to be recorded but I thought it was quite funny. So basically a lot of people when they business owners they ask me like how do you do good copywriting. Then people always say obviously you must be a very very good writer. In fact some people even say oh my English is not good. I was never a straight A to no point. But then I said like copywriting is actually not about having very strong language or whatever. It's really about simple direct communication and in fact the title as I as I written down here the best copywriters don't even spend much of their time writing. It's really more on the thinking and the research. So that is what I'm really going to cover in today's session. So who is this mainly for? It actually appeals to almost anyone. If you have like a skill you have a skill or offer but then you don't really have any idea how to communicate it to your market then this will actually help you to maybe refine your offer help you understand your target research even better for your audience or maybe you're doing freelancing maybe you're already doing copywriting or you're doing graphic design and you want to find out how to find the perfect client. This might even be for you because it helps you in your research and all that or maybe you're like in Jonathan's case he's doing e-commerce there's a lot of product and services that he sell so this will definitely apply when you write your Facebook ad copy your email copy and your sales page and yeah even applies for any business but you're doing like co-traffic conversion and it's not working so this might help you as well basically almost anybody yeah. So today's a key topic I've broken down into three sessions like three main topics so the first one is this thing called the magical 8 letter R word that really makes or break a piece of copy and many many copywriters even the really good ones I know they think they are really really good and they try to overlook this as well and as a result the promotion from being four figures to seven figures in terms of like the revenue right from the ad it really like becomes like from seven you become four figures because I really really bad just because they skip and it's not to see like the copywriting it's bad it's because they skip this process which involves the 8 letter R word then after that after this this section we're going to cover into the two things I always teach all my copywriting clients like I actually have like full paid clients that they ask me to teach them like how do I go through my copywriting process this is the exact same thing I teach my paid clients as well yeah and after this thing I'm going to teach you how do you learn this ancient technique used by our assessor it's really interesting because copywriting goes back a lot in history and a lot of the best copywriting principles for many many years ago we still apply them to this I'm going to teach you how to do this this same principle in your own business to sell with a better copy and then at the end there's a surprise segment I kept for everyone on more like a software routine and you maybe you can teach yourself and your copywriters that you hire in the future for your business yeah so let's go right into it so as mentioned my intro is actually I actually failed two businesses in the past I used to also do a dropshipping store for a bit but it didn't go very well it was really really interesting first experience into entrepreneurship so a lot up and ups and downs but I think it was a good experience then I also did my very first e-sport media agency with my ex-business partner and that didn't go so well as well because of COVID like we set out events but after that it came crashing down then eventually I went to become a copywriter and now I'm a coach as well and I also run this freelance lifestyle newsletter where every day I just share my tips and you can also subscribe to learn how I write my copy yeah that's all so let's go right into this eight letter r word what is this exactly is this eight letter r word actually it's a really really simple thing it's research so as I mentioned research right it's really the difference between four figure and seven figure promotion and this is not just said by me right it's actually said by a seven figure copywriter when he shared some of the best tips that took him from zero to seven figures in one year yeah and this guy was the ex-copy chief of mind valley which is a very well known personal development company in Malaysia yeah so how do you even do good research so this was a standard template that I have used for a long time and I wouldn't say I'm the guy that created it I just took whatever I learned from other good copywriters and I basically plug it and I share with all my clients and students and in fact even before I start writing any copy for a client right or myself I always try to ask the client like can you could you help me like do this short survey first and the reason why is because as a copywriter right you need to understand the power of like leverage you need to understand that your client will definitely know more than you about his audience his market or whatever even if you already like are in this niche for a long time your client always has more information than you so that is why you need to really give them the time to answer and don't go straight into writing the copy like I rather wait for them to submit this first so this was a real actual case example recently I have a client who is an insurance director then they want me to write an ad copy for a retirement plan or something so since I actually have no experience in this particular insurance retirement niche space before I actually gave him this and this was what he filled up so you can see who is your customer very basic stuff what is their interest their pain points results and obstacles and all that so I took their answer and then I went through my own research process then I combined them together and then I looked through everything first before I start writing so how do I do my own research process then right so actually there's many many ways up so I'm not sure about you but a lot of copywriters they even tell me even through some of the paid courses they learn they actually have no idea how do you actually do research they say like is it like on a whim you just go to some facebook group or you just interview someone then you just try to write down whatever they say actually there's a step by step process so there's actually many many ways so one of the best copywriters I think his name is Perry Belcher he actually shared in this mastermind interview on some of the best a copywriting routines right is that every day when he wake up right when he go for his morning shower at like seven o'clock in the morning he actually will play the tv right of the us news then he will listen to it every day for one hour then he will take out his notebook right then he'll just start jotting down what is something interesting that if you can add into his copy because it's based in the us so because I have a client in the us I also try to do that every now and then but if you are in basically Singapore example then you just listen to channel's news Asia or something then other than new us news right you also can go to this gold mine of data which is facebook groups so maybe let me give you a short demonstration of how I actually do it because facebook groups is seriously one of the best places for research is it's just gold as a copywriter or marketer like let's say I my niche is like other cultures let's say I help other cultures or cost creators to really scale out their business so I'll just go into these kind of groups right where literally the title speaks for itself la there I'll just go in there I'll read then you can see the good thing about facebook groups is this it's very hard nowadays to really find a high quality research information where it's really not filtered like they really don't hold back so in facebook groups like this is one of such a place la because like you see they they just ask like questions then people comment 81 answers all of which is like things that really give you top quality information to really understand how your marketing and from there plug and pull into your research so so it's like you can see the person is like asking whatever la like 5k how do you do an offer then all of this I can just plug and play then I really like spend one two three hours going through one group and there's many many other groups are like if I just type cultures or whatever you can see the whole groups pull up all of this right it's a like I like to say it's a gold mine each of it is a gold mine so if you want to find you want to dig out all the gold you really need to spend some time each of the gold mines you can spend a few hours so for me I actually spend a few days just digging through facebook facebook groups and pulling everything out but then now you may ask me like I've been so if facebook groups is so good but then what happens if I like cannot find enough information which might be the case I don't know maybe your niche is like alpaca farms or something maybe that's actually niche then you cannot find a facebook groups of alpaca farmers they say how do I find so there's actually other ways so one good way right is ready so I'm sure you know recently the Wall Street bags and all that then everybody like blow up it's because of ready they use the ready thread so actually ready is also a very good source of data farming because I had one client right who was in the home decoration niche so what they do is they sell these canvas paintings then the customer can just hang it out there is like a picture of a horse or whatever so ready is like a place where people really like like to post pictures and all that so I realized that actually why not try to use the ready groups to find so for example for this one right home decorating ideas you can see there's a lot of like people just post their pictures or whatever then there's a lot of comments so from there I also just like dig out and really like go through I feel like ready it's also like pretty good as a facebook group but in terms of really solid content I think facebook group is still the strongest and let's say if ready still don't have good ideas or research content right then there's still one more this is a particular particularly relevant for anyone who is doing e-commerce so amazon review is actually one of the best places to really like get all the reviews because people don't really know but do you know like you can actually go down right one by one the five star four star and all that right then actually all the five star reviews is like go some of them they really share stories of like for example this customer like my client is a e-commerce store in the jewelry niche so for this one right when they write about oh I ordered this healing kit for my mother then it's like whatever like the mother like crystals and all that then they're very happy so I actually swipe this entire review right and I created it into an entire like email campaign so I saw I gave the editor I took this that I took my client right that this product seems to be working really well and seems like this is like probably another drop shipping product go and ask your supplier if you can go and source a similar product then we use the same concept of like or maybe mother like now you see like next week mother's day is coming up right then we use this product I package it with the same story angle like oh you know it's a perfect gift for my mother I created this product because of of what I wanted to impress my mother or something bring her into crystals then we just sell that actually people actually buy like in fact another e-commerce in the same niche told me that it's impossible to sell this at 99 dollars because that's just too high like they only sell like the same product for 56 dollars but because I wrote I used the amazon research I really understand what is the core point of the customer right with my research then I just swap I put in the same kind of copy I actually could sell it many many times even though at 100 dollars which literally the other e-commerce sellers is almost impossible like that is a scam and nobody will buy but can still sell because I really understand what is the trigger point of the customer and yeah just connect through my research so that is really like the importance of research it's like really really not going straight into writing not like trying to half-ass this really really this this is the goal if you really want to make sure your copy is strong your conversion rate all that you really need to give space in this and work together with your client maybe maybe you can take it even one step further like I actually ask my client if they are willing to interview their customers yeah so I'll actually go and interview the customer with my research question then I'll say as a thank you for your time I will actually just ask give like some kind of like 10% coupon because like what is it's nothing like 10% coupon compared to all of this research right trust me like the conversion will really show it for itself because your customers are your target or the other one that I already bought so there's no way a copy writer can understand the customer more than the customer can understand themselves yeah so that is on research so now you may ask yeah you may ask like how much time do I need to really spend on research or writing a good rule of time will be 50-50 at least 50% of my time I will research writing actually not so much more time will actually be spent on trying to figure out what works what is the big idea and and all that yeah so now it's the interesting part I really like to talk about this because either some people think they understand it but they don't or they really have no idea about this like some of them I asked the copywriters they say this is the first time they hear this even they go through some other causes they never heard about this before so these two concepts I always teach my copywriting clients even before we go into copywriting it's called the market awareness and market sophistication so there's a very good book called breakthrough advertising which is one of the best copywriting books ever is written by one of the best copywriters in the world unfortunately he is already passed away it's called Eugene Swartz and he talks a lot about this as well yeah so apologize my drawing is not very good because I draw it on my computer but mainly the five stages of market awareness I like to call it in a pyramid so it's easier to visualize so it goes from most aware to product aware to solution aware then problem aware and unaware so I just assume that everybody is new to this so it's easier to explain to everyone but the main idea is that most aware is a customer that already bought your product before they know your product very well and then uh yeah so after that there's a very high quality of traffic because it's very very hot so it's very easy to convert then the next is product aware means they probably never bought your product before but uh they kind of know who you are they really kind of seen your ads many many times and right now they are still thinking of whether to buy from you or one of your other competitors so you're just one of their options then as you go down further and further solution aware just means they already know they have a problem they know if they have a solution but they don't really know that you sell the product like let's say you sell you sell jewelry they know that they probably want jewelry but they don't know that you sell example then problem aware just means that they know they have a problem and and all that so as you go down the pyramid you realize that more people are actually further and further away from the awareness spectrum meaning that most of the market is actually unaware that they don't that they don't even have a problem like let's okay let's say like I have a person that I know like they sell health supplements like for diabetes most people even if they diabetes probably they want to wake up and say oh I need to buy a health supplement today for my diabetes nobody will think of that in fact that's why I always like to say actually we like advertisers like copywriters they actually are doing a great great thing for the world because if we don't ever market to them every day consistently then we will never be able then they will never be able to realize that they have this big health problem and then because of that their health problem may actually be very very bad by the time they even want to fix it yeah so the main idea is that before you write your copy right always understand which part of the pyramid you're aiming because the copy will dramatically change it's very very obvious to tell like one look you can tell whether this person is writing for unaware or product aware kind of audience whether it's like how cold or how hot so most advertisers I see right even in like let's say Singapore because I'm based in Singapore even on the very big advertisers right in the property niche example they are writing to like product aware most aware very very direct kind of copy yet they are running on cold traffic so that is probably the reason why it won't convert so let me show you an example of what why do I really mean by that yeah okay so let's say Facebook ad library right uh let's say this I don't know I hope uh I hope this advertiser doesn't watch this video but I don't know I always people always ask me to use this example because they are very famous they run a lot of ads in the property niche yeah so no no offense no offense to them I'm not offense to them this is just an example only just a learning example so you can see this advertiser they are in property right and they run a lot of videos as I think they have a very big budget I even see them running on youtube right but you see their ad copy right they are just talking about oh here's my product the address of the property uh it has high floors or whatever whatever then come and check us out or appointment whatever but can you see like how direct is it doesn't speak it doesn't speak to my audience let's say my audience right is problem away means they know that they want like they if they want to invest they want to invest in property right they need to find our property but they don't know how but they know they need they need to invest and they need to find the right kind of property but this kind of like copy right it doesn't speak to them like when they really they cannot understand because this let's say this person right have no idea about property investing they don't even know what the heck is a good factor when it comes to investing in property so when you write these kind of things right immediately it turns them off they they will just click away yet like even though you probably can cover them if you know how to write to them like if it's problem away i'll probably write to them like oh three factors when it comes to finding the best property to invest like first must be good location second is the price must be i don't know like they say every four years the property cycle go up and down or something you know so you educate them then from there then you really can bring them to a landing page that talks more about this then like one one such property is this property at Holland Drive then to them oh now it connects then can you see from there right we can convert this portion of the market right all the way down right to the bottom to the upright like if we can convert problem away all the way to most aware audience with this kind of like sales process but right now if they continue like this right probably they only can hit most aware and product aware which is like 10 percent of the market which means they are leaving 90 percent of the market on the table to other advertisers which is a huge portion when you think back like property in such a niche right one sale is like how much uh hundreds of thousands of dollars so it's really a lot of money that's being left on the table because you don't understand market awareness yeah so that's more on market awareness so now is uh the second thing the second concept is different it's a bit more different this is a bit more like i guess vague to most people it's called market sophistication and again in the book breakthrough advertising it really talks a lot about this but i'm just gonna summarize it so it's very easy to maybe understand it so let's say uh victory right i always like to say example everybody loves bread right let's say singapore you know got bread talk got four leaves and all that so what is your what is your favorite bread bread i don't know let's say okay let's say bread talk right let's say bread talk so a level one market sophistication would mean that let's say singapore right like like a city or a town then first time right uh one one uh one guy come in then he sell the very first uh bread shop let's say bread talk okay let obviously that this is just like an example let's say like many many years ago back when singapore just started out then the first guy that want to do bread business right he sell his first shot this called bread talk so at level one right since you're the only uh business in this niche it wouldn't be very hard to sell your product and get people to come in your customers to come in like probably you just put like flyers outside your shop or put some kind of like poster or what right people will start coming in because they never seen it before they are curious to find out more so probably my kind of copy if i was at level one market sophistication i'll just say uh come here to buy your daily loads of bread that's all people will come in because there's no other competition so i don't really have to try very hard to get people to come in through the door and buy my products so that's just level one very very basic but obviously in today's world that's it's very important it's very very hard to find a market that's level one market sophistication probably is yeah it's very unlikely so now it's level two so now got two bread talk maybe got bread talk then got four leave also another brand another business that sells bread so now it's no longer possible to just say uh in my copy buy get your fresh loads of bread at bread talk people don't really care because the next door my competitor is also selling bread so how can i get the customer to come to my shop instead of the other competitors both of them say it buy buy your fresh loads of bread right how i can do it is i enlarge the claim that my product or service does for the customer so i'll probably say buy this fresh bread that not only uh is fresh but it's super delicious very very yummy and confirm like you will never want to eat another kind of bread again so i enlarge the benefits or the claim that what i do example then now my customer will come to my bread shop so that's level two when i have like two players in the market like one competitor now now there's one level even higher level three so now instead of bread talk four leaves there's one more bread brand that comes in like a bread business let's say baker's in wow so many people right then how how do i get people to come to my shop now is i can't just even if i say my bread is delicious and all that everyone can say that also then like people won't come to my shop how can i differentiate myself from my competition right in terms of like marketing so now we have to go one level higher which is something that not many people know about which is called the mechanism mechanism what does it mean it means you go from the outcome to the process what do i mean is like uh in the example of like say bread talk probably you have seen it before like maybe not bread but maybe in some kind of like chocolate or or food or whatever instead of saying the bread is delicious right i say this bread right i have some kind of special recipe that is passed down from generations to generations like some of the rations in singapore they pride themselves like the reason why they are so famous because they say they have this kind of secret recipe or bakute or whatever some kind of food recipe that nobody else have and it's very delicious because of this recipe from their grandmother that everybody come to the store because of this recipe they want to find out why it's so good about it right so they don't even need to say that the bakute is delicious they are their food or bread is delicious they just focus on the mechanism which is how they created the process so that's how you differentiate at level 3 market sophistication then this is the highest level already so you can see now the town is already developed there's cars walking by there's traffic then every corner of the street there's a bread shop because business is like that right when somebody sees an entrepreneur sees another entrepreneur making so much money in this space then naturally like people will start to come in because like if the barriers to entry is thought that high then everybody wants to make money because it looks like there's a lot of money to be made so how can you differentiate yourself from other competitors in level 4 which is really really tough is to just again enlarge the mechanism so instead of enlarging the claim now we enlarge the mechanism so maybe i can say i have this secret family recipe right that's been passed off for hundreds of years and this bread is like freaking good i'm the only one that have it but not only that now i see this recipe right it also has some kind of like special uh science formula by using some kind of special yeast right and this yeast right it comes from uh it comes from the Himalayan mountains okay i'm making this up like this this is like obviously nonsense but you know what i mean i basically go even deeper into how is this mechanism like how did it come about so i review more details about story maybe i can create a story so a good example real-life example if you are based maybe in southeast asia i think you will understand it there's this very famous candy brand i think last year or this year it blew up you know and they didn't run any advertising course like i do not think i saw any radio ads or posters outside like on the mrt streets or on tv right they didn't run any marketing yet it blew up like the product blew up the this candy is like it's called i think Himalayan salt candy is a very delicious candy and i tried it myself it's really good but the interesting thing is this is what i shared with other copyrighters as well is that this product right the reason why it blew up so well is because they understood market sophistication on a varied level if you flip to the back of the wrapper right they actually have a full paragraph that talks about how this candy was developed or they go to the Himalayan salt to get this pink Himalayan salt and it's a natural uh material some kind of like uh chemical right not chemical like some kind of like natural material that hundreds of hundreds of years of erosion or what in the mountains right and and they what they found out is that this this salt right this natural thing right it actually has a hundred natural properties that our bodies also have and it's really good for our body and it's very very hard to get it so because they enlarge the mechanism like they say oh you know this this this candy is from like this kind of like salt in the high up in the Himalayan mountains we are the only one that have it and the consumers right nobody heard of it before of course naturally they get interested and obviously the candy must be nice if not nobody will buy but it's good but because of that it blew up you know like before you know in a few months i saw in every supermarket i go everybody takes the Himalayan salt they put it the stock was the shop owner right they put it at the storefront then everybody's buying it you know like i see on facebook people start to publish more marketing everybody start to like share and it's like oh this this candy is amazing yet can i say that uh the candy the confectionary the chocolate niche it has been around for hundreds of years it's probably more than level four maybe even level five yet they were able to pull it off with almost no advertising because they understood this concept so that is just a real-life example i like to share yeah so we are almost to the end this is the third concept already actually very really fast hope you are enjoying this presentation so far so this is now i'd like to share more about this ancient technique right used by our ancestors that can help us to sell with better copy and it's also endorsed by a very well-known marketer the owner of quick funnels russet buzzer he talks a lot about this as well so this this concept is actually it's called storytelling yeah storytelling it's not a very very hard thing to understand so now i'd just like to ask you a short let you guess just a short question one of these three options right which do you think right in real time when they actually tested this copied head to head three different sales letters which is a very long form piece of copywriting right which one was the most successful and the objective was to send this piece of sales letters to owners of people who like love dogs dog owners dog lovers and maybe just people who love charity that like philanthropies so there was a time when i came across this example real-life example in the us i think this marketer was asked to write a sales letter right to help raise money for dog food because the dog home had no more money and they are like non-profit and they have like tens of thousands of dogs to take care of but they don't know how to raise money so they asked the marketer to like just send out a request to all the rich people or people who have money to donate to the dogs to support them so that they can continue helping these dogs so this marketer right wanted to do an experiment so he did three kinds of copy the first one is he literally take a case study of one of the dog that was very very upset like this dog when they found he was almost dying really like one of his legs almost dropped off already which is like insane then he's only just letting him die then they say like if this dog rescuer right didn't manage to come in time to find this dog in like three days like three days later right the dog would have died already so this marketer took this story and really like just focused on the pain of the story and saying like oh it's damn sad and like really there's so many other dogs like this guy and if you don't donate right something terrible is going to happen like that all of them is gonna die so the whole copy right is just focused on like a very emotional story of like a dog so that's like the first example then the second one right is to combine the story so half of the half of the sales letter was the story then half of it was more like the facts are like uh you know uh the charity really needs money because like we've been doing this for three years then now we need money to fix like renovate and like we need this and that so it's like very logical stuff like why why i need your help not so much on emotion not so much on story so it's like a half half then the last one is really like just straight out they just say uh can you donate money to my charity because we need help and and and all that it's like there's no story it's just very logical like just very blatant pitching so guess which copy right converted the most like probably what people people were probably think at first I also thought that uh it's either it's either uh story or a story with facts but the result came out and it was very interesting the story right just the story alone right converted way higher than story and facts and and facts which which means what it probably means that because uh uh the writer was able to create the story that resonates so much with the dog owner right because they can visualize oh the dog is suffering in pain and because of that they really want to help it triggered their core emotions which caused them to donate the money so that is why when people say uh emote people people buy with emotion and justify the logic right one way you can really pull out this concept for your copywriting in the future is to really capitalize on storytelling and Russell Branson talks a lot about this in his book expert secrets as well like he talks about some some concept about this that you can also read about yeah so I want to give you one example to really uh illustrate what I really mean this is a example of a sales center not I did not write this sales center but I have myself have uh breaking it down analyze and use it for my own sales center as well so this is a health product that helps people to uh alleviate the symptoms of this medical condition called tinnitus I think tinnitus is like uh it's like those people with hearing aids right their their ear has a lot of problems like they keep hearing this sound I don't know like like their ear they cannot really hear properly and usually it's all people that get it so how do these marketers sell it with storytelling let me let me show you an example so yeah so mainly like how would anyone sell this right it's like it doesn't sound very easy to sell because uh this market is very niche and tinnitus I have never even heard of it before I ever read it I don't even know what the heck I didn't even know there's such a condition exists so it's not that easy to sell so compared to like diabetes this is a very very niche topic as well but this marketer was very very smart I don't know whether the story is real I don't think it's real but he was able to craft a very like captivating story that really illustrates the pain of tinnitus and how this product really saved this guy's life so you can see like uh this copy right he straight away very fast he talked about this uh this person is a retired guy who was a veteran then he couldn't hear properly then straight away they go into the story like the action of the story so another thing about storytelling is like how can you right very captivating story right because people today they have very short attention span is to really go straight into the action that's why you see some of the movies like even like Avengers Infinity War right you don't see the first scene I don't I don't think the first scene was like oh now they are happy everything is good it's very very boring like introduction no they straight away they go straight into the action like probably like the Thanos just smash the ground then everybody whoa like the first few seconds they really hook your attention really so it's the same concept applies in storytelling so for this one is he said like this example of a patient of tinnitus he got beaten rock and left on the roadside because of his condition he couldn't hear there's some gangster beat him up and live in there so the author is like he said he's a some kind of reporter then he found him on the roadside then he had to call ambulance and and try to save this guy there after that eventually he talked about tinnitus and all that but you can see the story is very very captivating because uh he talks about plane crash I don't I really know how how can you create is very interesting but he basically said that he nearly died in a plane crash because when he went to go overseas because he's a journalist right then he went to go overseas to get some news news coverage or something then halfway the plane crash or something then after that because of the plane crash right this guy Anthony Robbins Anthony Romano also got tinnitus or something then together with this US veteran right Dean Warren they have to find a way to get a cure of tinnitus so the story is basically like he died he never died in a plane crash he got tinnitus then after that he stumbled upon uh some forest in Alaska then some village lady tell her about this natural cure that was found in their product which later they're going to sell this product that helps and cure the tinnitus then from there they bring the audience to say that oh tinnitus is a horrible disease is very hard to cure and eventually because of this natural cure that they found it created some kind of supplement and this supplement is only they have it no one else have it and now you have to buy it because this is like one of the best solutions in the market but I'm not going to go through the whole sales letter because it's going to be damn long but I just want to illustrate that storytelling is a very very powerful tool that really any marketer can use if you really really understand how is it to really like craft a good story so another example I have right is my own ads that I run on Facebook and I also use the same storytelling so it can be applied on any platform like sales letters Facebook ad or email this is another example right so it's a very short this is my own real life story it's not it's not fake it's real so I just talked about in my past before I come into entrepreneurship right what was my past oh I work I work at this part time job that I couldn't even like deliver the food as a waiter right I was a horrible waiter I couldn't even wipe the table I remember I got scolded by my manager because I don't know what the table then eventually I got to a point where it's like life sucks and clearly there must be another way I can't just be working like this doesn't make sense to me then eventually I discovered entrepreneurship blah blah blah blah you know then eventually I try to sell my offer and this actually works very well because people resonate people may not resonate that I'm entrepreneur maybe now that you have all the success and all that but people will resonate when when you are like like let's say everybody everybody probably works I have the first time for like when we work at some kind of like part time job then they hate their boss they hate working part time so that's that's how I pull them people who are probably away or unaware that eventually bring them to product aware solution aware and all that lah so that is a example of storytelling in action yeah so let me go back to the slides okay so now I'm just going to cover this uh bonus segment where people always are so what are the kind of tools is there any tools a copywriter can use to improve their copy so my answer is yes and it's free so one of the best tools I ever found right was this thing called the Hemingway app so Hemingway was actually a very famous a copywriter back in the don't know how many years ago but but he's a very famous guy and he was famous he was famous for being able to write copy that could sell very fast because his words right could speak directly to his market and what what we found out is that the more easy is for your audience to understand your copy right the easier it is for your copy to sell it's because this is the thing it's like a psychological thing uh you can read it out I think it's real I think there's a some studies to talk about it but basically our brain right has an emotional side analogical so yeah excuse me an emotional side analogical side so how it works when our audience right when they read the copywriting when they read the avatis learn right the more difficult it is to understand your copy let's say I sell some kind of supplement that I keep using these kind of jargon medical terms like uh I don't know like diabetes one two three four five six or something then they cannot understand it right because like it's some kind of like medical jargon if they're not if they are not a doctor they wouldn't understand their brain has to spend more time trying to understand what does it mean because they are using the logical side of the brain right more right they have to they are they are not able to use their emotional side of their brain more like they have to use more of the logical side and because of that it stops them in the track they cannot continue reading your copy and because of that they'll never get your call to action and they'll never buy so so this is why it's very important to make your language as simple as possible to really make it as though like I always like to tell uh every other copywriters that uh you should be writing right to an audience as though like they are six years old means a six year old child can understand your words no matter what you sell even if you sell to lawyers right it has to be freaking under like super easy to understand our primary school child right should be able to understand your copy very very well so you can see it for example for for my emotional story right I got a great file and great file just means I think like six years old or seven years old can already understand it even though it's like a pretty long copy like 300 words and it's because like at the start right it wasn't very easy because I came from a academic background I took literature and I was very used to writing flowery language so I thought that writing flowery language was better so a lot a lot of my copy efforts was very bad it couldn't convert because the audience couldn't understand me because I didn't write simple enough language because they'll use more of their logical brain to think and it stopped them in the tracks they couldn't continue reading so over time I I tried to use the Hemingway app over and over again to the point that now right even if I don't use the Hemingway app if I just write it on my computer and I paste it into double check it should naturally already be about grade five to six that's that's how how you can become better over time by constantly uh trying to think how can I write a simple language just really focusing on the emotional part of the copy to help them to convert yeah so that is a Hemingway app and one last part before we actually end the presentation is another thing about routine so another thing about what makes a very good copy writer is really routine it's not about having the best technique the best strategy or it's really at the end of the day it's really routine because the habit like good habits good habits determine whether we are successful or not right one of the important factors I'm sure you agree is your habits so what is a good routine of a good copywriter for me is actually can copy very good copies of other copywriters so one example is this copywriter he's called Ben Settle to me he's one of the best email copywriters in the world like he runs a self like copywriting publishing business where he teaches people or marketing and all that and he's like seven figures or something and he just writes emails every day he writes like three emails every day for like more than 10 years already so when I started right I hand copied his emails every day from scratch for like 15 to 30 minutes like every email I would take up a physical piece of paper and I'll write it down every day for six months straight every single day and what I noticed was that after six months of doing this right from scratch or without any understanding of copywriting my thinking slowly shifted I started to understand like why did he write it like this like what goes behind in the mind of a very good copywriter I started my brain started to naturally just I don't have to explain it but your brain just kind of understands how to write copy and it's very very interesting and yet it's free like you know I didn't have to pay anything because he's honestly I was telling my other client and he also agrees that after I asked him to do the same exercise is that your his free content is basically better than some of other copywriters like fake content like literally like just hand copying his emails like I show you right like every day he emails like Ben Settle like you can see that today I just read this even I just copied it also like like you can see little known brutally sadistic client manipulation tactics in fact this this subject line that you study right can I say you can also use it for Facebook ads the headline you can use your sales letters you can literally swipe it into other things like it's just very very amazing like like how Ben Settle can take this simple concept and just plug it into anything really so that's really one of I would say one of the very good habits that you can do every day to become a very good copywriter is to really just like follow closely to another I just follow closely to another very good copywriter that you know and just always like hand copying starting their copy every day just trying to understand your thinking so you eventually become as good as that I guess the first question that I have to ask right just now can you share your screen go to the slide about Amazon reviews and Facebook groups right can I ask when you're actually doing the research on that what are you actually looking for like what material and what insights are you trying to gain when you're trying to research that that pieces yeah oh that's a very good question yeah so mainly what I'm trying to look for right is like I said the the template right trying to figure how can I plug and play into the template so mainly is probably like their pain points what is the outcome that they want but more importantly this is a maybe for amazon is better is emotional stories like sometimes the customer right they really they don't hold back like when they give a review right they really just say everything like why they buy it what is the reason and and everything they share like what they're satisfied about with the product what they are not satisfied but mainly I'm trying to dig into the core reasons like what is the pain point or outcome so for example that I said this customer they ordered the product for the mother so before I even read about this uh article I probably wouldn't think of a frame of a gift I probably would think like these people like they buy the jewelry right like the crystal jewelry is for themselves like they would I don't think they'll buy for their mother but in fact as I started to test this more and more I realized that actually people would actually love to use this as a gift because this niche for this niche right these people they are very very spiritual like they believe that the stones right on all that right they have healing properties and it can help them a lot but the thing is that a lot of their own family right they don't really believe in it so they want to at least try to spread this healing properties of the crystal try to share with their family and and give to their friends because like all of them they also have some kind of problem in their life but they refuse to believe and all that so they're trying to find a way to to give them so only through this kind of research and inside there I realized like oh now I have to like tailor my copy in a sense that it's more of like saying like why this should be a great gift for Christmas their birthday what are some of the angles that you can in fact use to encourage your friend like even give them suggestions of how you can encourage your friends to try out crystals like I write a whole article about that it's like trying to really go deep into the thinking yeah okay so I mean because this is a very specific story and specific analogy to this person alone right like how how relevant is that if you apply that to mass market because if for example you're putting the copy on ads you're going to like 100,000 people right this particular story like how do you know that this resonates or are you trying to spot patterns or something correct yeah that's a very good question so basically I am trying to spot patterns so I'll really look through over and over again like Amazon that I will try to cross reference with Facebook groups so let's say for this niche I am so in the Facebook group like this then I also realized that in the Facebook groups they also talk a lot about uh gifting the crystal to their friend they like for example this one straight away six hours ago my friend this with the husband whatever so they are this I realized that this this niche right is they really like they care a lot about others people around them they want them to be happy and all that also but I didn't realize that because I as a person I wouldn't say I'm like that also so it wasn't natural for me to think like that but only through enough research I realized that this is something that they is a strong value of them like empathy caring concern about people around them just loving people so now I have to tailor my copy to their sense yeah it's about spotting the patterns yeah right yeah because how do I know right maybe this is just unique for this person how do I know it's for mass market yeah so again it's about research spending enough time yeah I can answer why why is it that like you go to the your PowerPoint slide about the copywriting template right the framework right yeah the discussion template like why is it that more businesses right don't do this like when you consult a client for example like why why is this not common sense oh honestly I have no idea but I will say it's because maybe the first they never hired a copywriter before and secondly is their understanding of marketing is a bit different or maybe they just uh just try to like one example I heard from another business owner is I'll just take a look at what my competitors are doing then I'll just swipe them and throw in my product and just try to test everything that works I'll just keep swiping or something which won't work because yeah yeah yeah you're already doing something that's already tested yeah I mean I have no idea but even if they know yeah even if they know right a lot of times the research that they have is too surface level it doesn't really impact the copy you cannot feel it so yeah it's another thing also the depth okay understood okay so my next question is um you mentioned property brothers right and then they sell in the property niche and then they are very dominant you say like big players in the Singapore market for example high real estate property besides it's their big budget if their copy sucks right why why are they still like doing so well if that's the question yeah so uh I would say that they are I really have no idea how well they're doing but I see I see them running so long means it probably must be good I would say it's because maybe their facebook might not be that good but their youtube is crushing it because they are really really good at shooting videos I see some of their views very very high quality they don't want to present and all that so maybe because they they are their expertise is in videography they have a very talented videographer they know how to communicate and pitch very well that's why they can crush it but I'll say in terms of like the copy in facebook it's really like I don't know it just doesn't sound very good in the example based on what I said like the awareness just an example yeah understood so you also mentioned the Himalayas don't think right the oh yeah the Himalayas and stuff but like for example if you're just selling random brand right and then you've there's no personal brand attached to that brand so how how do people think about how the entrepreneurs think about um how do we sell true story if that's the case oh yeah that's a interesting question so a lot of times actually even like many brands I work with they don't really have a very strong brand like unless you're like Nike or Apple right but you can still sell very well because uh story is storytelling is just really about trying to express your own experience in your customer shoes so maybe let's say a lot of times like a founder of a company the reason why they created this because they was a customer themselves like I probably like if I like the Nike story right Nike story is that they they themselves are athletes they like the shoe but they always find that the shoe could have been better so they created it themselves so a story in that case will be just going through your experience why did I create this brand and using that emotion saying that previously I was a customer and it was very painful for me I couldn't find this solution there's another brand also I think I don't know what's it called Blush Boss is some very famous cosmetic brand the lady was was has skin condition and all the market like all the cosmetic products she tried to use Sephora or what didn't work so she literally just created her own product then sell the product through her story storytelling skills and it blew up like I think I think it got sold for a lot of money like so that's an example just really going through your own experience and using the power of storytelling to express it to the market and even without any brand people will feel it because they understand they are in their shoes ma if your targeting is strong they understand it so even without the brand the emotion speaks for itself then they will just buy oh yeah okay understood uh a bit personal question about you right you said you mentioned esports media agency oh yeah why why why did that work out why I think esports is popping right yes so uh honestly the first reason is because me and my back then me and my business partner we are not business people we are gamers so our thinking was that if we both like game then we know that esports is trending right maybe we are one of the first players in the market we can somehow make this work so we so this is a business mistake very important business mistake that I learned I really learned a lot is that never ever like product also never ever create something first always first you must survey the demand make sure there is a demand there's only people wanting to buy or a lot of like hype coming to your business then you create the thing so for us the mistake rookie mistake was we created the thing first then we try to figure out how to bring people to our website like we were creating content for months like on our website publishing the esports content daily news nobody was watching okay but in fact if we flip it around I'm sure it will have been much better but we actually hosted a competition also in COVID when COVID just came so it was damn hard also like because we were like kind of like half events company half media agency yeah a lot of rookie mistakes but uh yeah okay so how did that transition how did how did you find copy then that's the thing about copywriting man literally copyrighting itself hook me in so I saw one day I was scrolling on Facebook I was scrolling on Facebook then I saw this ad posted by a Sean Ferris which is a one of my copywriting then basically I was reading his his copy then I was like wow this this text is it's very interesting the way he writes it's like as though I really resonate with what he's saying and it's just different I never seen this kind of writing before so I went to try to find out more about what is copyrighting there from there I just got hooked and when I've made my first sale or I realized that this writing actually can help someone because back then I never imagined like you could be a writer like I always had the pre notion that being a writer is impossible you have to be either like jk rally was not the right Harry Potter or or you could only be an English teacher but I never thought there was another world right because I always realized I love writing so from there I just go down the rabbit hole and all the way in already okay you said you made your first sale so what was that how did that um I guess you learned that you applied right so what was that yeah yeah so I I learned copywriting for a few months like from free content blogs and the course that I just used my copy to pitch to other business owners that I could use copyrighting to help them with their ads so I use that then eventually I connected with my first client which is the jewelry store owner the e-commerce guy then he asked me to write a piece of copy for him for free which I'm okay with because I don't even know how good I am so eventually the first one sucked it bombed but the second one did so well they able to scale the product to like 15k a month or something then ever since then it just he gave me a shot then he paid me then yeah correct from there he just yeah interesting yeah understood so as in how does what's the call your I remember you said you hand read hand wrote your notes and copy for many days that is like oh yeah yeah really hardcore so respect to you but when you're doing that right what was the what did you learn because you said you eventually get good so I understand that because I've done it myself I I didn't write hand written but I understand what you mean but for other people right what what did you learn after going through the process and yeah yeah I learned many things the first thing is I learned how a good copywriter thinks right it's so different because in the writing when the way they write it sometimes because especially for like the one I learned Ben Settle his copywriting content is literally teaching people how to think and write better copy like he he educates like copywriter so so from there I learned his thinking how he writes and the way he like pitch like he always will use some kind of like headline that always like hooks your attention different angles then I realized that his content is always he'll give a story first then transition into a lesson and then a pitch which always like I realized that's like a flow and I realized that it's like very very powerful so I learned his thinking I learned his techniques just by writing but naturally is there's this there's this thing that they said like there's a reason why by hand writing the the words it actually helps you to memorize helps you bring to memorize information faster that's that's a study they conducted compared to if you just type it on the computer right it's very hard to register yeah yeah there's there's a study like that also I realized that there was another reason why I guess the hand copying really helped me a lot earlier earlier in my early days yeah it's just more like getting used to the muscle memory is that what you're saying muscle memory thinking yeah it's just like it's a very natural transitional because I don't know one of the best advice I gotten right from a very good copywriter was that copywriting is like to be very very good right it's about consistency it's about habits so one of this one of uh one one's one of a way to really instill this strong habit in me is to just do this at least this is what I realized naturally it will just help me become a better writer I realize yeah okay I understand I know there are some tools now that is like they they use AI and then you just I don't know what you see that I've seen that before very big debate on this yes yeah so so what what's your thoughts on that uh yeah so basically there was a very big copywriting Facebook group and I actually just asked for fun then it blew up like there was like hundreds of comments even the moderator was talking about it but the main consensus I realized is that uh there's really no right or wrong I would say that in 10 years 10 years time right copywriters are still needed but the AI will reach to a point where it becomes so good right that if you are not good yourself but you have to be of a certain standard if you're not there right actually there's no point hiring a copywriter the AI will actually write better but if you are good enough that you really understand storytelling emotional copy to a very strong level then AI can't beat you because AI is AI it's not human human but I foresee that the trend is that everyone says is that eventually the copywriter right will need to work together with the AI means it cannot be it has to combine together then from there the copy will be like even stronger like it probably like reduces the time it takes less time to write out because AI will just press one button right AI will create everything for you maybe like a template or whatever yeah so it's very efficient yeah that's like I guess the trend for AI I understand I also know that because I work copywriters right so I would say they have like writing blog how does one overcome that I'm pretty sure you I also have a lot of writing blog so I mean there's many ways to go about writing blog but I would say the the main idea of overcoming a writing blog is just like procrastination how do I overcome procrastination is to just start writing something it doesn't have to be good it doesn't have to be like fantastic or whatever but just start writing something maybe force yourself to say okay now I have a sales letter right like few thousand old essays like a sales letter how do I write when I have the blog I don't know what to write so instead of saying I have to write the sales letter today just say today right I just need to write three headlines yeah I just need to write three headlines then you will realize this is what they say yeah you will realize that when you just focus on that when you realize that it's much easier to write just the headline but when you build out the momentum when you can write the headline right you won't stop really like naturally you go on for a few hours right you can continue to keep writing then the headline blog hit the writer's block just banishes so basically instead of saying I need to write a lot of things just say I just need to write one small thing for the day then I'm done to trick your brain that actually there's not a lot of work to be done then you just growth yeah okay that's how you can overcome a writer's block understood so I mean uh I guess coming to and last question also oh yeah I know that there's nowadays VSL video sales letter right there's all copy and it's like driven drives a lot of conversion nowadays and then they accompany that by a long form sales letter for example right so uh when I talk to people or clients when it's like they don't believe that people would read such long form copy what do you have to say to that do you have any data to back that up I know it works so but I just want to hear your opinion yeah there's a yeah there's a huge question I also get out of time then yesterday I was listening to another copywriter podcast as well so the answer for that is really it's true now of these people's attention span is getting shorter there is no longer as easy to convert with long form sales letter that's what you have to video but to be honest I would say the real answer like it's just like marketing like it's just to really test everything like I would test VSL short VSL then transition to the sales letter that will test a full VSL then really see what works because ultimately you won't really know like we can say like probably VSL nobody I mean the sales letter nobody will read right but actually there's a brand I don't know like the podcast this guy was sharing that there's this brand called Pots and Pens or whatever some kind of like Amazon brand right they literally scaled from like nothing to all the way to the point where they got their company got acquired by a big company right many true long form sales letters as well like they realized people actually read also so really I would I would say don't let's not have these assumptions so like I will try to really test everything as see see first from the data then from there yeah okay great Ken so thank you so much for your time so how do people find you where tell us about yeah how do we contact you how do we work with you in what capacity oh yeah yeah you can connect me through Facebook right now I'll drop my maybe my profile link and you can also subscribe to my newsletter that I'm really putting a lot of time now to just share the tips and all that then feel free to connect with me on there yeah okay Ken thank you guys everyone for your time thank you thank you thank you Irvin as well and I'll put all his links down in the description as well okay Ken thank you Irvin for your time thank you yeah thank you