 Welcome and thank you so much to all of you that have joined us today for another episode of The Non-Profit Show. We are talking about what makes a good leader and we are having this conversation with Dr. Rob Harder, Executive Director. And he also has a podcast and we're going to learn more about that from Rob here shortly. Before we do that, we of course want to make sure if we haven't met, you know who the heck we are. Julia Patrick is the CEO of the American Non-Profit Academy. I'm Jarrett Ransom. I get to be her fun sidekick and it's always a pleasure to be alongside Julia. I'm also known as your non-profit nerd and CEO of the Raven Group and we would not be having these conversations if we did not have the continued support and investment from these presenting sponsors. And we're not talking about the investment only here for the non-profit show, but truly in your community, in your sector, and really to help you drive your mission-driven goals forward. These organizations exist to help you do more good. They are in your community. They're online. If you have not checked them out, please do because they are literally here in your corner and on your team to help you do more good in your local and geographic community. So thank you to our presenting sponsors. And thank you again to Dr. Rob Harder who has joined us. We were just sharing in the Chitty Chat Chat, those of you that joined us for the Green Room Chatter. It's been about a year, Rob, since you joined us. So welcome back. It's great to be back. Thank you so much for having us. A lot has happened in a year. Well, you know, that's why we really wanted to have you come back on because we thought, wow, you've seen so many different things. You're a community leader, you're a non-profit leader, you're involved in the faith community. And we really are struggling, it seems like, with these conversations about leadership. And we have seen as you have this great resignation bloom where we're losing our leaders through retirement, aging out, compassion fatigue, you name it. And so there's so much going on. And so we thought, wow, let's start to have this conversation with Rob and see what he's seeing and so that we can kind of shed some light on it. So I got to start with the first question. And that is, are non-profit leaders the same or as good or as bad or as difficult or as what as for profit? It's a really good question. You know, my first response to that question is that leaders are leaders, regardless of the sector, non-profit, for-profit, government leaders are leaders. So if you're a good leader in one setting, you most likely will be a good leader in another setting. Having said that, I think the non-profit sector, there are a couple of challenges, I guess, that are unique to the non-profit sector that maybe are different than, say, we'll just say for, to take a argument that for-profit sector. And here's what I would say, at least three areas where I feel like the non-profit sector is a bit different, that the leadership has to be applied correctly. And that would be number one, scalability. A lot of times non-profits, the need for food or for rent assistance or housing or healthcare that a lot of non-profits will seek to meet, which over COVID was a big deal for us, I know, and many other non-profits across the country. We just, you have this need, and ironically for non-profits, a lot of the need rose during a crisis, but the resources didn't necessarily rise with it. Now, hopefully you did get more maybe donations this last year than you had before, because people were responding to the COVID crisis and were wanting to get behind your non-profit to help serve the people that you were serving. But for some, they didn't. And so the need rose, but then the resources didn't rise with it. So therefore it was difficult to scale the non-profit organization. I think in a for-profit, typically you have a little bit more money to work with or you could sell more widgets, so to speak, and you can scale more easily. You can go get some more investment money from a venture capital company. It's different than non-profit world. You really have to continue to maximize your fundraising. So I think that makes it a bit difficult that leadership maybe in that sense is a bit more challenging. And then along those lines, I've heard this, I'm sure you've had people on the show talk about this, is with resources then, is this idea that right now one of the biggest challenges in the non-profit sector is competing with the for-profit sector when it comes to pay rates. We've just seen in our community here in Park City where you have a couple of fast food restaurants that are paying anybody with zero experience, $18 an hour sometimes, just because they can't get anybody to work there and they need to raise the minimum wage to $18 an hour. With no experience, you could be a high school kid, so great for high school kids right now. You can take your job and get paid pretty well with no experience. And so that's difficult because, again, a company has a few more resources to throw at salaries that non-profits can't initially turn that quickly when it comes to pay rates. So that's a challenge I think that is a little bit different when it comes to the leadership, you know, challenge for non-profits versus for-profit. And then the last one would just be, I think this constant, this is always a challenge is to maximize volunteers. Non-profit are set up to really invest in and lean on volunteers. And sometimes that can be a challenging thing to do. So in other words, you can't just scale up or grow your non-profit by just hiring more and more people because we don't have the resources or the budget to do that. Well, that's where volunteers come in. So making sure as a leader, like in a for-profit business, you may think, well, I've got to continue to hire if I'm going to grow and scale this business. I'm going to keep hiring people or get more investment money and go hire more people after that. You can't do that in a non-profit. It's different in terms of how you manage your budget. So therefore you're investing more in volunteers and then your leadership is changing. Now on the positive side, I think for non-profits, there's a lot of volunteers out there that really want to make a difference. And the beauty of that is they're helping you out for the mission that you are all about. And so there's a draw to your non-profit, not about the paycheck. It's about, I would do this while I wasn't paid because I love your mission. And so in many ways, non-profit leadership really is about inspiring people to the mission of what you're trying to accomplish versus just throwing out money to say, hey, let me just pay you more to get you to work in my business. So those are a few things that jumped to my mind with that question. Wow. That was a lot of information. And there's so many pieces in that that I would love to dig into. I really held on to something, Julia, that you actually brought up and Rob just brought up is really this economy change and how for us as non-profit leaders, for us to either attract or retain some of our staff, it's really looking at that wage structure and looking at the pay. And you're right, Rob, like for profits, we can sell more widgets or we can really look at increasing our bottom line in that way and in that capacity, but we don't necessarily have that ability in our non-profit business model. But what you also said was that volunteer workforce. And that I think is hitting a home run because that is what sets the non-profit sector apart from the for-profit sector is we may not be able to meet those wage salaries or up that to even meet what some of these fast food restaurants are paying. Here in our community, it's about $20 an hour, right? And it's fascinating. And so really looking at, okay, how do we tap into that volunteer workforce? You know, it's so interesting that you would say that. I was doing an event online last night with a very prominent global leader in human services. And I was really, I knew we were coming on with Rob today. And so I was thinking about leadership whilst I was watching this. And I realized that this leader really was almost an evangelist for the concept of the mission to such an extent that by the time I was done with watching this program, I just had to have more. I wanted to be a part of it. And it was not a recruiting tool for volunteers. It wasn't even a recruiting tool for fundraising, but he did such a good job. He did elicit my desire to help and to participate. And that's a total leadership issue. Whether he knew it or not, it wasn't contrived. But I'm thinking about that, Rob, because when you are a leader for something that is so emotional, it seems to me that you're going to have different personality traits, maybe not. And I'd love to get your take on that. Like what does that look like? If you're a raw leader in the for-profit, is that going to work better or worse? What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, there's so much debate about that. And my podcast show, I've asked that same question many, many times. And it really depends on who you ask. But the general sense that I get from leaders and authors that I read and leaders have done this well is that there are certain traits that are common to, say, executive directors or CEOs of nonprofit organizations. They tend to be not always going to tend to be more extroverted, for example. They tend to be a little bit more of the passionate, rah-rah, you know, leaders that can generate people to be excited about the organization and get rally around a cause. But you don't have to be. And so some of the people I feel like have really given me new insight is that self-awareness is probably the most important part of a leader. And in fact, they've done a recent study. I think it was Harvard Business School that did a study about what's the most important part of leadership. It was self-awareness, meaning if you know the type of leader you are and say you're an introvert, and you're like, I don't know if I can really be an executive director or a top leader in a nonprofit. If you're an introvert or because you're an introvert, that's not necessarily the case. It's just how do you lead to your introvertedness and who do you rally around you on your team so that the certain things that maybe you're not good at, you're not wired to do, you have other people on your team that will do that. So you don't have to be everything to everybody. You don't have to be that rah-rah all the time. But you need someone who is exciting, getting people excited. Maybe it's your director program. Maybe it's your COO. So as long as you're aware of what your leadership strengths and weaknesses are and you rally other gifts around you and you have the humility to allow other people to lead with you, I think you could still be a successful leader in the nonprofit world. So I'm careful too. I used to be a little bit more like, yes, this is the personality trait. But the more I've been in leadership and the more I've learned from other leaders that have done it, much bigger situations than me and larger organizations. It does seem like that there's a lot of variety of leaders out there. The key is, do you know what kind of leader you are and what kind of leadership team have you developed? That's going to be the most important part about you being a good leader and your organization being well led. This makes me think of the plethora of personality tests that are out there, right? I mean, there are so many personality tests. I was sitting around a client's board table the other week and they were talking about all of the staff makeup and how this person is really the end path. This one's the driver. This one's the worker. And just how all of these pieces of personality traits come together to really build that solid foundation of a team. And I love what you said, Rob, is that you yourself as the leader of the organization, you may not have to be that total extrovert, but to build your team with strengths that surrounds you to make up this truly robust team, I think I agree that's the key. It's really building your team with these solid personality traits to provide the leadership across the board, because I think we talk about the leader at the top, but there's leaders at every level. There's leaders in every, I believe, every person. And so how that shows up in the day-to-day operation as you serve your community plays a big piece of your organization's success. I couldn't agree more. Rob, what are you seeing about that? I mean, when we talk about leadership, I think the discussion is changing. I mean, just for you to bring up the concept of being self-aware and being other or not the same as everyone else in the room, is not the way we've talked about leadership for decades. So what are you seeing as we move forward in terms of, is this better for the recruitment of more talent? Or is this, what is this doing? Because it's kind of a shake-up. That's a really good point. Yeah, I think of a couple of things. I think it's being aware that there's not a cookie-cutter model for leadership. I think that was the case for, I think that felt the case. This is, here's your typical leader, and this is the type of person you want to be. And then I think a couple of things happen. Again, this is what I've read and observed, and so it's not just from me. My experience is that there were leaders out there that didn't have the typical leadership style that everyone would say, oh, that's a leader. And yet they built big businesses or they did an amazing job with their company or their nonprofit. They're like, okay, people's discretion has, well, maybe there's different types of leadership out there. But I think that's a big piece of it. Is it just by people going out there and leading their own way, people couldn't deny the fact that there were some successful leaders that were different than they initially maybe thought. I also think this openness to diversity, which I think is a wonderful thing. I know again, we've, I think all of us are having those conversations about diversity, inclusion and equity. And so I think it's broadening our mind in general about what are we missing when it comes to leaders? I think diversity is a piece of that, but it's not just diversity in terms of background and race and ethnicity, but as leadership styles too. I think there needs to be a diversity in that and more voices at the table that maybe there's some unsung leadership traits that we've not highlighted enough in the past that people realize, you know, those are two really important traits too, and people can lead with those strengths that maybe weren't always honored. And so that would be my initial thought. That's what I'm seeing. Yeah, that is fascinating. One of the things I remember hearing is, you know, shepherds lead their flock from the middle, right? Not necessarily from the front or from the back, but truly shepherds lead their flock from the middle. And that is a leadership style that I think is fascinating. So it takes me to the board and I'm curious how the makeup of the board and the leaders that make up the board, how they play a role in this leadership time when it's so critical. I mean, everyone's talking about these last 18 months. It's really been a toll. It's really been challenging for so many of us. And I'm curious, Rob, what you've seen with this makeup of the board and how they play a role in this. Yeah, you're right. It's been, I think, a very challenging time for the last 18 months. And I think it's revealed a little bit, right? If there were tensions, there were maybe under the surface, they came way out in the open. So if there was tension with the board, it really was out there. If there's tension in your staff, it got out there, right? So I think we all experienced that. You know, I'm personally very lucky. I have an amazing board. I really do. They're incredible. And I think a lot of it's because they're leaders. They're good leaders. And when you have a board full of good leaders, then they understand leadership. And so they understand what the organization needs. And so I think good communication is so important between the board, particularly the board chairman, the board chair person and the executive director or CEO. But just in general, just good communication with the board and engagement by the board. I think it is really, really important that the board is supportive of the staff and again, specifically the executive director because that's a typical connection point. Because when if the executive director is feeling stress and the organization is feeling a lot of stress, the board in a perfect world is that place where they're going to be in your corner, they're going to rally around you. They're going to encourage you. They're going to invest in you financially, right? And they're going to say, you can do this. What else can we do? Like they're engaged in their, their essay support versus backing up and saying, well, hey, you know, we're the board. This is your job. You're getting paid to do this. Like, that's not a great board response, right? Because then you feel like you're on an island by yourself and you don't feel that support. And so like, again, I, this is incredible board work. They have been engaged. They've been checking in. They're worried about not just the organization, but they're worried about me and how am I doing? How's my wife? How's my kids? So that's a wonderful and an ideal world is board members that care, that are engaged, have good communication. And again, they're good leaders, hopefully, because that just goes from the board all the way through the organization. And again, a perfect world. That's what you want. You know, again, you hit the nail on the head when it comes to talking about the personal side of the person. Because I think for so often, I know, I know I was trained, you know, many, many, many years ago that you leave all your problems at the door and you show up to work just with your work yourself and whatever's happening at home, whatever's happening personally. But I have seen that shift really as a society culturally in these last 18 months, that there is a lot more of that true altruistic. How are you? How is your wife? How are your children? Like, how is your entire family unit? You know, when we talk about this great resignation, I know here in our community, we have had so many CEOs resign, because of, you know, burnout and fatigue. And so really looking at that holistic leader, because a leader is a leader 24 seven. And I know, you know, I can't turn that switch off and so I'm curious what you've seen how maybe this leadership conversation has changed to really encapsulate the entire person. I think you nailed it, Jared. I think that is something that has changed recently. I think it was already moving that direction, like there were certain books out there about being the authentic leader and bringing your authentic self and your full self to work. But I think COVID really put it to another level. I think it's a combination of you are working from home, you're in, you know, on a zoom call and your dog with the background or your kids come up and jump in your lap, like that blending of work and life was like never before. And so I think there was a sense of, as opposed to being all upset, like, close the door and you're yelling at your kids on the phone, you're like, no, come on in and say hi to everybody on the zoom call, right. There was just a sense of that's real life. And I think that's been embraced now that, yes, you are a full human being. And the more you can bring your full human being to work is better. I think it's more honored. It's funny because I same thing when I first was in leadership, there was a sense of a real separation between work and personal life and you kind of really didn't talk about them much. Now there's much more of a blending of work life balance number one and just bringing your whole life to work and even to the point of having really making sure your staff have a good work life balance like having conversations about that and making sure that is honored in your organization versus hey, we want you to give as many hours as you can in this organization because that's the goal. I think too many people burnt out with that and they're like they're done with that they don't want to, that's part of the great rising nation I think they realize you know what, I actually kind of liked having a walk at night and with my wife and being home when I needed to be. I think I'm going to keep that going you know like so they didn't want to go back to the old way maybe of working 67 hours and not seeing their kids and so I do think that's a change that just got pushed on steroids if you will because of coven and all of us being at home and on zoom so much more it blended that more than ever I think. Yeah. One of the things we've talked about and a questions question that we have asked is, you know what has worked well for you during coven that you will continue to carry on and I do think this this blend this authentic leadership. But that takes me really to the future and what do you think Rob has worked well for leaders and community members that might continue in this future so this is kind of you know, if you have this. You know, crystal ball in your desk or on that shelf behind you please grab it look into this crystal ball and tell us exactly yes, tell us the future of nonprofit leadership and and just leaders in general. Yeah, and I think we really touched on that idea of just bringing your whole self to your job I think that is something that's being honored it should be encouraged more and more. The leader that's more open to feedback the leader that is really, you know, more of a real person in a sense, not just this CEO that's removed from the rest of the staff or even, you know, donors and volunteers for that matter. I think that's definitely a change. So, you know, again bringing your whole self to work hugely important. I do think also looking forward I think, and this is I think it is unique back to the kind of the earlier question about uniqueness of nonprofit leadership. I think nonprofits, one of the strengths of nonprofits are their nimbleness, you know the ability to turn on a dime and adjust to a new need in the community or something else that's come up. I think I found I think I maybe have shared this last time I was on the show but I continue to see this, and I think this will definitely shape us in the future. Is that if your organization was able to adjust and be nimble enough to pivot during coven and still operate and serve the needs that you had in front of you quickly and safely. You were thriving during coven if you were not able to address and you weren't nimble and you weren't able to pivot, you really struggled and some people are really struggling so I feel like that has changed I don't think it's going back. I think nonprofits really need to be the most nimble organizations around. And, and one example it's a practical example is, you know, stress you with donors, please give us unrestricted gifts. I mean, as long as you trust it on top of what you hope you do, you give an unrestricted gift in that organization can use that money right to where needed most and things change that needs changing coven to show that in a big way. And so the more donors understand that the more you can communicate the importance of that, the more than all of a sudden your budget is maybe not locked into these programs you have to continue, even though it's not relevant anymore. It's like no if it's unrestricted gifts, then you know you can use it where needed most and that allows you to be more nimble and to apply those resources to the biggest needs that you're seeing. So I think that's a really, really big one. And then the second thing is innovation. I think that's in the future. And nonprofits that are going to really thrive. I mean I think this has always been the case I definitely think now, because there's so many things changing on a just a daily basis that being seems in terms of the information that's out there, the technology that's out there. Here's just one small example that I still, I am very much unaware of how to do this exactly but I've had two people on my show now I've had it all coming out soon. And that's how do you use cryptocurrency to for your nonprofit that more and more now it's very small, but it's growing rapidly, not just of course this is across the world but certainly in the nonprofit sector, where people are giving money to nonprofits through cryptocurrency. Well I think most nonprofits are like what is cryptocurrency and how do I you feel as it, but I think we need to be innovative and find out is this something that we can look into is something should we look into it. There are different ramifications that we do accept cryptocurrency, because it is unique it's not the typical check in the mail or even going online and just you know running your credit card. So, these two people on my show, I was just fascinating because I learned so much about cryptocurrency that I didn't know. And so I'm thinking okay, I think this is just a symbol of being open to being innovative will be critical to the future because we are changing quickly. And if you want to stay ahead and not retract back. I think you've got to be really as a leader open to innovation on a regular basis. At the same time, of course keeping your core value that you know jettison your values but keeping them, but always looking to the future. We have, we have that discussion, I think coming up next week. Yeah, because we see. Yeah, I mean in terms of a forward thinking trend lover hate it. Yeah, so we're having that discussion I think next, maybe Thursday but yeah absolutely I think you're right. You know, Jared ransom said something so interesting to me now almost two years ago and and she said no, the nonprofit sector is due for a disruption. Now this was pre COVID. So she, she made the comment. I remember where we were and she said you know we've been doing things the same way. In some cases more than 100 years. We haven't done anything different and we were getting left behind when we don't stretch and try new things and be innovative. And so I think in some ways. COVID has moved us forward and pushed us to places where we never thought we could go and yet we're better for it. Yeah, yeah, I must have crystal ball that day. Yeah, yeah, well I know you know we have been doing a shake for this shake up and this disruption and you know I'm a huge believer in innovation and also benchmarking what other companies and sectors are doing in in many industries right like not just the nonprofit industry. And I think we have so much to learn and I think we really are stepping up to the plate and many, many ways wage included as as you had mentioned Rob like we have to really be competitive in our pay. But we also have the ability of attracting that volunteer workforce that sets us apart in a very different manner so I think you know nimbleness I love that you brought that back up. Innovation, if we can harness that and harness our authenticity to move us forward and to really continue to capture, you know, our community needs with with those two elements. So your main nimble right with your leadership with your board with your community, serve the community and how they need to be served and be open to that innovation so Rob harder. Thank you so much. We are so grateful that you spent your time with us today and for those of you that may not know Rob. He is at which I would love for you to tell us a little bit more about your podcast where we can find it. Rob is the executive director of the Christian Center in Park City Utah so thank you so much Rob and yes please let us know where we can hear more about your leadership podcast. Well thank you again for having me on the show thanks for these great questions and for those who are watching and listening. Julia and Jared always have a good question so continue to watch their shows the future because I think it's a really really good to dive into these topics right right where it's going to help us become better leaders and nonprofit leadership podcast. Yes, thanks for introducing on that. It's been something I'd love to do. I have some great guests on the show. You can check it out anywhere itunes Google Amazon. Anywhere you can find podcasts my podcast is up there. But yeah just you can actually Google nonprofit leadership podcast and should pop up. And that has been a really fun thing for me because I have grown so much as a leader, just listening to these wonderful guests, just like Julia and Jared do and so thank you for the opportunity to share. And I encourage any comments if people have some ideas comments things they're learning, pass it on to all three of us we'd love to learn what you are seeing in your neck of the woods. Yes, absolutely when this started our conversations the nonprofit show. Now almost two years. Julia promised me it would be a two week, you know, stent and here we are coming up. Julia said, but every day every weekday we are having conversations with leaders across the globe. It has, you know, leveled my information my knowledge, tremendously exponentially I cannot even measure it. So I do, I reap the benefits I feel so privileged and blessed to have these conversations just like you do with your podcast, Rob so thank you so much again for your, your time and expertise. Julia Patrick, I'm so glad that you had this two week dream. And here we are going strong well into almost 2022 it'll be here before we know it. And I'm Jared ransom again it's really fun to play alongside with Julia each and every day, we wouldn't be able to have these conversations with our very amazing guests like Dr Rob harder today with Christian Center Park City, if it weren't for these presenting sponsors so again, they exist for one sole purpose, and that is to help you do more good in your community, please do find them and check them out they are phenomenal. And today is we like to end every episode and truly mean it from our, our hearts. Stay well. So you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow everyone. Thanks so much. Thanks Rob.