 Section in your document where this text appears pretty much intact. Your text appears completely intact other than other than moving some of the margins around. Yeah, the text itself. I did yours and then didn't make any changes to it. So, All right, let's let's go through what Alicia said. Yeah, most of my edits are more about language than the actual change in content of what is being said. Well, but we also haven't talked about together about what I wrote so we haven't shot at that. So, Miss Pat. Yes. I heard some of the conversation but I was not able to get in until Jennifer let me in. So what document are we going to be using hi everyone. Okay, well first, first of all, I suppose I should call the meeting to order. Sorry. Are we live right now. Yes, we are we are live. The meeting is being recorded. And we do not have any members of the public present. No we waited for you Pat. I was hearing everything but I couldn't find the link quickly. Yeah, thank you anyways Jennifer. So my suggestion is that we start from the document that Alicia recently edited, which is the. If we do that we can go back and look either at Miss Pat at the version that you had put this text into. Or Mr. Delaney has a version that that also I think includes the main the rest of the boilerplate of the bit the IFB. Yes, first is in general is the structure and way of organizing it seem workable. I just have a. Go ahead. So, I just have a general comment, I think, given the timeline that we have. I just want to remind me that if we were to combine everything, it will be very daunting for whoever against the contract, are we thinking of doing a pilot program with this at phase two. It's a lot to ask at the very short period of time for any consultant to produce substantial work for us. It's, it's from my observation it's. I'm attainable it's a lot. It seems to me like a one year project, literally, not to talk about weeks. That's a lot. I mean it's good it's all good stuff. So I guess the question will be. What is the town manager is willing for us to hunt on or maybe the working group or perhaps Mr. Delaney can help us out. It's just a lot in few weeks in couple months for them to produce. Yeah, well, I mean at this point we're working with a deadline of the end of June. And I mean maybe we can get that changed, but I think, I mean my sense was we need to know about police procedures what's recommended and how stars fit not fit. We need to know about citizen oversight and how we go about creating an ongoing board. And I think they're going to, you know, I could have put C in with the procedures but I thought the issue of accountability and supervision and consequences, you know, was sort of its own category. I don't see how we can, I don't see how we can make our report at the end of June without this information. Now, you know, yes, it could be a year to gather all of it but Jennifer, I still think that one of the prime recommendations even if you don't recommend that CSWG become a standing committee is that you at least ask for that June 30th deadline to be extended out because it's, I mean, I think we're just trying to do, or you guys are trying to do a lot in a very little bit of time, but we, you guys can't rush this work necessarily. So, um, I just, I think that you guys should seriously consider either having us a subgroup out out of the CSWG that extends out past June, or just extending the CSWG past June. Yeah. Yes, Pat. So, I honestly see the work of CSWG in, thank you, Ms. Marston for your comment. I actually see our work being beyond one year. So, that's how I say, you know, what we can do tonight is maybe do we want to do phase three from this project. We want to produce something for June, but I think we should extend it to fall. We should ask for extension, at least through fall. And I'm thinking October and November, and that's been very generous with time. If we want to do this really well. Elisha. I just wanted to agree with Ms. Pat. I was also have been concerned about the timeline and just like I want the quality of our work to be good. You know, I worry about rushing it and about putting or expecting a consultant group to be able to do all of these things well in this amount of time. So I think we should absolutely consider an extension. I think if all of the members are willing that we should extend the group because I think we're, I don't think we're going to be at a point where we're ready to finish. At the end of this. I think it's my own take on it is that some group like us, I think needs to function indefinitely. I think safety doesn't end just when you guys and right, right. I mean, in some sense, I don't want us to end until we have created a citizen oversight board that has some some power and an ability to continue to supervise make recommendations for changes on, you know, for year after year. Anthony. I will just echo the other comments I would, you know, I would tend to agree with Ms. Pat that this looks like it could be a year's worth of work just in this phase two here. And I think a recommendation from the committee to the town council that they, I also think that you probably couldn't do it with the money you have left. Exactly. So I think a recommendation to town council that they appropriate the money for this study in the future. And, you know, maybe present maybe present them with this with this procurement to that end. But I think if the foot if you if we finished this tonight, the full committee approves it next week. You know, the first week of March, you have someone signed the second week of March. That gives them two months to do the work and then right to the final month. It's, you're not going to get good work. I just have a follow up question to what Mr. Delaney was speaking about, because he did mention that we may not have enough money left to support this. And I just want to know what that actually means because so if this were to go live and then we didn't have enough money to support it. What, like, what does that mean. If the bids came in and the, and you couldn't afford the lowest bid or the, or the recommended bid, then you wouldn't be able to sign the contract. We can't sign a contract if there's no, if there's no appropriation. So it would just be, we're sorry. And so, and then also as a follow up to that I would I needed some clarification again about the amount that we are allowed to spend because I do remember we were speaking about some type of cap, like for invitation to bid. And just because I'm also not very familiar with this process I don't know if that's just a universally known thing that there's a cap, but there's nothing actually referencing referencing a cap in the bid itself. So if we get bids that are, will we get bids that are possibly higher than 50 K, and are those things that we just would automatically disqualify those requests, and then in addition to that question. I would wonder then what our 50 K have to be split between between the two phases, and that would be the amount that we can spend in total. So there's no, there's no cap in the law on how much an IFP can be worth. There is a floor for the RFP process but on the IFP, there is no floor there is no ceiling, you can conduct an IFP for any dollar amount. So we are limited to our budget, and I do not know that exact number at my I believe 80,000 was appropriated for all of the committee's activities and that would include stipends and advertising costs and I don't I don't know what that is. I don't know how much you have unencumbered right now. What was your second question I'm sorry. So, I guess so my second question was that if then our cap our budget, the 80 K would be including both phases of the work so essentially like for each phase we wouldn't really be able to accept over 30 K, because we'd be running out of room in our budget, but also that gives me to a third question. Do we have somebody tracking this. I mean minute meeting notes. You mean expenses. You know yeah I mean tracking like how much money we've used and how much money we have left because I think I'm my understanding is that our stipends also come out of that. And also, so I just don't know what that leaves us with what we would have left right now as of this minute and then if we're going to, if the gift cards are going to come out of that I'm not sure. And then how we could even calculate that because we don't know the level of participation we're going to receive. So how much we should leave in anticipation for that. In addition to then the consulting work that we're asking for lots of stuff from. The second question, the simple answer is yes. If you did, if you, you're currently procuring phase one if you also procured phase two, they would both come out of the same pot of money, unless you. I don't think there's an unless this late in the calendar year I think the, there's the money. That's kind of a political question but at the from an accounting perspective. Yeah, that that 80,000 is all there is for all the committee's activities. So third question is someone tracking it be accountant is tracking it and make sure that too many too much money is not spent. Jen, if you know the account numbers I could look them up. But I, I don't. I don't operate in that world too much. Yeah, yeah, and I don't. And I don't know that we've spent any money either yet. So, now we have our pot of money. Well, the other thing is that the money was not actually given to our committee. The town council set aside 80,000 for racial equity work and the town manager has control over that money. It seems to be willing to have our group spend, spend perhaps all of it, but it's not we don't actually control the money and so it's not exactly our job to keep track of it. Now, you know the town manager did say that the two police positions that are on hold are on hold with the idea that they would provide money to get started on the alternative community safety services. So, you know, I don't want to delay that process. But presumably there is some money. I'll just say that, and I'll go back to you in a minute. I'm fine with asking for an extension. I'm reluctant to break this into pieces for fear that we would get one piece and not get the others or not get to the next part. And I that that would trouble me. Miss Pat and then Alicia. So, I have a confession to make. That's why I tried to push to, so that's why I volunteered to be in this subcommittee. When I first started document. The step in for eight members a 8,000 give and take maybe the two K for gifts and what are the expenses, leaving us with 70. I looked at the four different projects. I knew right away, but I didn't want to alarm anyone at the large group meeting, because I was coming from business perspective. I'm looking at, you know, personnel costs, you know, label everything. I'm like, even the 70 will be really pushing it for even the first phase. So I said I'm going to be patient and hold it until the second phase, that way I can like speak about how I feel that we don't have enough funding are located. To do all the work that is required of us. Even in all the surprise, you know, I honestly think some of the bed will come in way more than 70. Because I've been doing research myself and see what other communities are doing and shelling up for this kind of study would be lucky to get groups that would do it within our budget. Okay, I think we should do everything that we want from consultant is just, you know, question of timing. So that whoever decided to do it would, they would do a good job for us. Okay, so the three of us who are the members of the subcommittee here, I, it seems to me we've made an agreement that we would like to extend their time. Recommend at the time for the community service working group be extended beyond June. Is that correct. Yeah. Okay, so let's record that as a unanimous decision of this group. And I think I also heard a decision that we think more money is needed to be able to hire a consultant to do what we think needs to be done. And we'd like to ask the town manager to figure out how to fund more than the money we have available. Is that everybody in agreement there. Okay, so let's record that as a decision that we've made unanimously as a subcommittee. So if you want to, well, Alicia had her hand up for a while. So, oh, sorry. No, it's okay. I just wanted to say sorry, I have to get back to my thought. Yeah, so just along the lines of Ms. Pat said and also just to also reiterate again that I've never done this before so most of my questions are really because I'm curious as to how this works and it's a learning process for me. I'm wondering though, because I have had the same thoughts about the budget for the first IFB, which is already live. So if we come to the point where it's close and we're reviewing, and we have bids. Like where are we were bound by the lowest bid so even if our lowest bid is 70 K are we bound to accept that bid and then what would happen to the second portion, if we use all of our money on the first portion before the second one even closes. So when I ask if somebody's keeping track of that. I know it's not necessarily our group's responsibility to keep track of the finances, but I think it's very important for us to at least know, like updates if we can get updates from the account and like you guys have used half of the allotted money, just be cautious, because otherwise I don't understand how we can make decisions moving forward. Anthony. Yeah, so to the first part. No, if the if the if even the lowest bid comes in and it's above our budget, we are certainly not obligated in any way to continue with the contract we we say, sorry, all the bids came in too high. And we either do it again, or we figure out another plan but we've done it before where where even the lowest bid has been too high and we just say sorry. There's the term budget there. We could have more money in our encumbered account than the bid and still rejected is too high is that correct. Yes, that's correct. If it's higher than the number you deem prudent, prudent, then yes. We haven't done such deeming. And then, can I just Jennifer add in that I can get updates from the account and once we really start spending some money. That's not a problem and bring that to the group, or you guys can also vote in a treasure who either keeps it from what I'm telling them or is in connection with the accountant or whatever, however that would work. The whole thing about the extension is then you go into the FY 22 year and then you will hopefully have a fresh pot of money because isn't out of bid one the first bid or the first phase has your recommendations in which you guys will recommend a dollar amount to move forward with for the next year. Right. Right. Yes. Okay, Alicia. Yeah, I think that was my understanding of it, but I was just concerned about if there would be overlap. So like in the process of the bids opening and closing. If the, the, if the FY 20 year doesn't pass that if that makes sense. Would we be able to wait and push off the securing of a consultant until we can, but then we would need an even further extension to our work. Like what, like what would be the timeline that we would know that for sure. We would have that available to us. Whether you could push it off. Whether you could hold the contract essentially until more money was available would depend on the nature of how this was appropriated. If it were, if it was out of capital then you could if it isn't then you probably can't I'm not actually an accountant. So that's not a question I should answer definitively. The second question as to when you would know would be when the town council passes its budget, which, which could be quite late. I mean there'll be drafts of the budget. So you'll have an idea of what to expect, but I don't and I don't know exactly what that date is either but potentially it could be down to the wire. Yes, so I also want us as the larger group to prepare ourselves in case we don't get, you know, consultant that meets our minimum requirement. And I'm a very optimistic woman, but for, you know, couple months now I kind of knew this is coming. You know, because I'm a number woman. I talk in numbers and business. So let's pray that we get the right consulting firm that works out the money really sucks. I'm sorry. It's just for what we're asking for us a lot. It is a lot. So let me check Anthony. Once the bids are open. There will be somebody who has the low number, but then we will need some time for our people to really examine the references carefully and decide whether they meet the minimum requirements. Would you then also come back to, or would someone come back to the CWSG and say, is this bid too high to accept before we accept it before it's accepted. I guess that is something we will want to work out. Typically, I don't know if I can even say typically because we don't, we don't usually do procurements out of committees like this normally it comes from, from a staff person. Normally the decision of what your ceiling is is made ahead of time and we know going in what it would be. My expectation is probably that just given the timeline involved if we're opening on a Monday, it's going to be a couple of days to check references that the time would just kind of work out that we'd be coming back to the full committee with what the evaluators have found. But it would probably be good for the committee to decide that next week as to what kind of timeline they're expecting and who is authorized. Well, not who is authorized but whatever the authorized amount is, and when I can proceed to issue a contract. So am I right that we have a consensus on this subcommittee that we want to ask the whole group to talk about this issue about how do we have a maximum for the bid in phase one. And what's the decision making process around accepting that bid. Is that something we want to bring to the, to the whole group to talk about. Can you say that again, can you remember again. Well, I guess what I thought I was hearing is that we need the whole committee, the whole working group. To talk about the possibility that the bids for phase one will be too high. And also to talk about what is an acceptable level how much of the money are we willing to spend on phase one. So when they came. Well, that's not up to our subcommittee to decide I. Yeah, yeah, but I'm proposing, I'm proposing that our subcommittee take that to the, to the whole group. Alicia. That's okay. But I'm also just wondering. Why we didn't. Is there a reason we didn't set a cap before we made it live. Like, is that I don't know what nor the normal processes. But Mr. Delaney mentioned something about usually there's. So I'm just wondering why we didn't have one before. I didn't ask you to and normally someone on staff tells me to tells me what it is. So I think it's just because of the novelty of the process. If I had to guess. If that's not something we would be able to decide then as a group, would it be a different staff member that would make that decision for us. No, no, I think it's within your power. Yeah, there's no, there's no other staff person necessarily. I think what Mr. Delaney was trying to say was that typically it's just a staff person that he works with with the bid to begin with. Right. And so there's not like, and it's so different for us because it's different for you guys because it's new except for me, you know, maybe Pat and a little bit of rust, but also it's new to us because we usually don't operate in the form of committees. So everything that we usually operate with staff, right. And so everything is just a little, a little bit different for everybody. Right. And so I'm very curious because I don't know about this process either and so I'm finding this very fascinating. But so we really think that the consultant it's going to be up there in the $60,000 $70,000 range. Because because of the amount of time. Yes. And then, but we so we don't necessarily want to do 70,000 because we still have the gift card program and ambassadors right or do we just table that to FY 22 and have it come out of the FY 22 budget. I like that. That's brilliant. I like that. Yeah, I like that. But I think that's something for the whole group to discuss that's not really for us to decide here. We can propose. We're talking about proposal. Proposal. If I may. Okay, I know we need to get into the document as well. So when we're talking about the phase one, we show, I'm sure we all know that there are three projects, right. So when we take it back to the big group. So we try to decide the money limit, we should think about one, you know, quantity of time for each of the projects. When we're suggesting the cap amount for each project within phase one, I just want to throw that out. We're not talking about the whole, you know, is the three different project within phase one, the cap. Got it. Does that make sense. Yes. Okay. Yeah, they were, they, the bid was in three pieces. Yeah, isn't is in three pieces. Yes. So yes, we'd have to have a discussion about how we prioritize those and etc. Can we look at this document for a bit. Yeah. Let's see. Does someone have, let's see, maybe I can screen share it. Thank you. Microsoft. Let's see, make this little bigger. Can you, can you see that document. Yes, very well. Yeah, very well. So I'm just, I'll just say as I worked on this, I thought, you know, we were talking about a consultant, but what we really are looking for as a researcher investigator. Report writer, and maybe a little bit somebody who'll work with the police department to find out. The general sense is that there are a bunch of recommendations out there nationally from established reports and from defund. And then there's the police department policies and procedures and we really need to know. I mean, I think there are some places where our police department has already implemented many of the recommendations in terms of their written policies, not necessarily in terms of their practice. This first section was really, you know, how do we get at policies, procedures and practices. What's recommended and what's our, what are our folks doing and how do we, how can we change it that was, that's my summary description of one a I like. I like all the additions that Alicia made here. Let's, let's talk about one a one through six. We can go line line by line if you want but is there anything in that first section that we want to change Anthony. So I have a question as someone who does not know the literature so maybe this is an easy one, but parts in a parts one and three between them reference three different sets of best practices. And again not knowing the literature are they. Is there overlap there. Are we asking people to, are we asking for a redundant set of checks or do they do they do the three sets of best practices address different areas and they don't really overlap. I'm hardly a scholar of this but from my quick examination the two referenced in in number one. I think are fairly similar but not necessarily identical. And once 2015 ones 2019. I think the recommended practices from the movement for black lives and other defund police recommendations will differ significantly. And but that we need to look at both. So, perhaps. You want to put in like 2019 then in number three somewhere. You know, I'm not sure that there's a definitive source or document. I think, I mean my, there's a lot of stuff on the movement for black lives website, and I would think they would use the most update date, but that that would be a, there may be other written reports for movement for black lives. So I'm assuming we're going to keep interacting with this person and can can tell them, you know, the details of what we want, but do you have a recommendation is that I'm thinking is that a way like I will confess that I didn't have time. So fully like really very well I cannot play with it did a quick read. So, thank you for putting this together and Alicia for editing. Does this document, you know, in copper covers the original one that the town put out for us to walk on. That's my question is an overlap is a. I, in my mind, this covers everything that was there and replaces it. You know, the original one. You know, I think Mr. Bachman and maybe even what I worked on was, you know, what are the recommendations. You know, we really need the consultant to look at how do the recommendations fit with what's already in place and and help us figure out what's missing. Otherwise, we're going to have a big job to do after the consultant is done. But we can go through this and then go see, we'll go back to one of the other documents see if there's anything missing. I want to give you, I want to give you time to read here, Miss bad if there's. Yeah, look at it. As we go. Okay. Anthony. Not, not that we need to do it now but in the second part for include attention to data collection and public sharing of data. I think it might be worth expounding on that. Exactly what you're looking for attention to data collection. It seems that it seems a little unclear to me. Okay. About the analyze current APD. Oops, data collection and make a collection and sharing of data and nations or clarity and transparency. I think that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for changes where. Deem necessary. That's that's great. I like that. Lisa. Can we add something about analyzing the data through a racial equity loans. What number is that. Or the same number. No, it's not any number. Can we just add it to four. Yeah. That's what I meant. Sorry. I mean, hopefully, if we get our consultant for phase one, they will have already done the analysis of the data for racial equity. And what I had in mind here was more what data is being collected and how's it being shared. And what do we want them to be collecting different, different information or additional information. And what are the recommended for sharing it. Hopefully the analysis of the racial disproportionalities and the data will. I mean that that's in bid or first bid. But I still like putting racial equity in here. All right, anything Alicia. Yeah, sorry. So I agree with what you said, but I think it was it's more about not like the data itself, but the process of the. The collecting of the data. Yeah. Yeah. Data collection methods or processes. Yeah. Let's make this including. Does that work? Yeah, I think that's better. Thank you. Yeah. No, I like, yeah, it really is the process that we're looking at here. I agree. All right. Anything else in this first section. I'm sorry, you know, do what I think. I wish I had enough time when I got the document to really compare with what we have originally, but it's okay. I'll go along. It's fine. Well, if there's. If we approve this tonight and you find something missing. We can put it back in or put it put it in when we get to the, to the whole group. Yeah. Yeah, sorry. Can we just also add here in number six. Include information about best practices for hiring, hiring, retaining and supporting a racially diverse. Police force. Retainment also means supporting, right? Well, you can keep them there at the job for like financial reasons, but you can also keep them there at the job. So, you know, you can also keep them on the support, like, you know, whatever type of space needs to be supported for a racially diverse police force, which we don't currently have. So it may include some more. Changes. Yeah, I like that. Are we ready for B? Yes. Okay. This is one that came. Right out of the. The ideas anyway came right out of the earlier version. Okay. Yeah. So, I'm going to say when we want to make changes. If at all. And then the same question with regard to state law, Miss Pat. So the, the, our state legislate. Has the police reform, right? Are we going to ask. When we do the IFP, are we going to ask them to review the state. A new report police reform. Yeah. The new legislation. We could just put right in here, including. The newly. The recent. Recent. Yeah. Massachusetts. Yep. Police reform. Yeah. Legislation. Yeah. Yep. Good. Are we ready for C? Yes. Okay. Before we talk to us about C, I need to do something here and I will need to do it again in a larger group. I need to disclose a potential conflict of interest. In that I have done anti-racism training in the past. And at one point was asked by a. Trainer of color. If I would be part of a team. To train the Amherst police department. It ended up that didn't happen. And I do not, and it's not my primary source of income. It's not something I do a lot. And it's not, I do not intend to bid in the future for a contract to train the Amherst police department. But I. So I talked to the town manager about this and he had me contact the state. Ethics conflict of interest people. They came back. They told me that. They told me that. They told me that. Given the situation. The town manager had the authority to say that there was not a conflict for me to participate on the panel where we're talking about training. And it's not that I would ever apply to be the trainer for the police department. But if some trainers of color. You know, I would be part of a team so that they had a white man on the team. I wanted to make it so it was possible to do that. So this is full disclosure. The town manager has said he doesn't believe there's any problem as long as I make that clear to everybody. Anthony. Just to clarify the town manager said it would be okay for you to do that. I think what he said was there was. I'd have to go back and get the exact wording. But he did not believe there was a conflict in my participating on this panel. There definitely, there definitely isn't a conflict with you participating in the panel. I just. I would have reservations about my question. I would have to go back and get the exact wording. But it's not my intention. It's not like I'm planning to beef up the training schedule and then so I can get a job. You know, I got. I have plenty to do without that. But I wanted to be upfront about that. That I have, I have made money doing that. In the past. That's sharing. Yeah. So this next section. I'm going to go back to the, I'm going to go back to the, I'm going to go back to the, the things we move to our alternative service providers. And it really matters whether they. Come on with. A whole lot of racism or whether they begin to understand. What police practice that. Was safe and respectful for BIPOC look like. And while there's research that says the training doesn't. It doesn't make a difference. It doesn't make a difference. It doesn't make a difference. It doesn't make a difference. It doesn't make a difference. It doesn't make a difference on the level of police violence. I think that's. Quite true. But if you just, if you just train people, it doesn't make a damn, but a difference. But if you train them and then supervise them. And said goals and currently constantly review it. We can develop a greater racial awareness. We can develop a greater racial awareness. And that's another whole thing, but I think. We want a less racist police department. And it's some combination of training and supervision and consequences and accountability. That has a shot at giving it to us. So that's my view anyway. Mr. Delaney has his hands up. Yes, Anthony. Sorry. Thank you. And then imagining a bitter would have the question, which is how would the successful vendor go about. Finding out about. Current training levels of supervision, et cetera, et cetera. Is there a process and information pipeline, a liaison with the APD. That has already set up. Or is that being worked on? I'm not sure. I've gotten some information from the police department about their training. There are some things that are required by the state. The town manager wrote in his draft of the. The original combined bid for everything. That the consultant would work with the APD. Or be a liaison between the APD and the community safety working group. With regard to. Any number of things. So I think the. It's not like we know who to talk to you. I mean, it's so far, it's the chief. Yeah. And whether the chief delegates that, you know, but. I mean, as far as I can tell what's happening is town manager is telling the chief. You need to answer these questions. And the chief is doing it and how much he delegates it to other people. I don't know, but it comes back from. From Scott Livingstone. Ms. Pat. Mr. Ross, you've known me for a very long, long time. You know, You're one of my kids. The right principle. So. And this, this, this will not come as a surprise to you. I'm not in to be honest with you. Number C is my least. Interest in the whole document. And I said that because of my experience with the school system that have all this. I'm. Equity, whatever diversity. Everything I hear. Hits of color continue to lag behind academically. Discipline continue to be on a wall. Even with all the training and. Even without. Literature on. Police training on police done help. I'm using the one, you know, through the school system that. Not a month of training will make it any difference. The issue here we're talking about is power structure. The police have incredible amount of power as we all know. And so training is not going to help. But I guess we want to include it in. In the, in this document and the. The committee CSWG, you know. The majority wins goes, but I'm not very much interested in that. Another thing I forgot to mention what we're discussing about. Budget money and everything I'm hearing from community. From residents that anything that has to do with. Police itself should come from police budget. I'm not, not, I'm not to call it racial equity work. It should come solely from police budget. So I will hope that we recommend that. As you know, part of our meeting today that. This particular phase two. All the funding should come from police budget. Thank you. Alicia. Thank you. Just to go off of what Ms. Pat said, I'm wondering then if it would be possible to investigate or inquire about the funding left in the frozen police positions and see if there would be a way to apply that money to this research. I don't know. I think that's, I mean, I think we could. You know, this whole bid. And Ms. Pat, let me say, I certainly agree with you about power. And part of my hope is that. If we get a good citizen oversight process. We can shift some power to the community away from the police. And it will require the police to have. Supervision accountability and consequences. I mean, that's why those words are in there. And that that is key to changing behavior. So I'm in agreement. I'm sold. And I agreed. I agree that our. I agree that our report could call for any training to come out of the police budget, but we're not writing our final report here. We're not writing a. A bid to get somebody to get us some information. But I told, I will support that being in the final report. So good. Okay. Are we ready for D? Yes. Okay. And I, this is my first look at Alicia's. Okay. Have I put a hyphen and anti-racist? Yeah. I'm not sure what it means. I'm not sure. Alicia, I like the first two. I'm not sure what it means. It's continuous as an equitable group. I just want to make sure that like over time, if we're not a long standing group and we don't have. Control over. The duration of the entire process that it doesn't. Turn into something that we didn't intend it to be. So I just wanted to. I just wanted to make sure that. I just wanted to make sure that we don't have to remain that way. And for things not to, to change. Under the direction of other white people in power or, or however it may. Yeah. We're not our. Miss bad. Yeah. So the oversight group wouldn't be us necessarily correct. That's what I'm thinking. Right. Right. Yeah. Not less, not less. We all applied to be appointed. But Alicia is saying like over time to make sure that there is still representation of BIPOC membership. Is that, is that what you, you mean? Yeah, essentially. Okay. That it doesn't like over time, people phase out and then new people phase in. And then now the intention of the entire thing is completely different than what we can, we created it with the intentions to be. Yeah, that's my worst nightmare. It has run through my brain many, many times. Many, many times. Yes. Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm certainly in agreement about the idea. I'm not sure these words quite do it. Okay. Yeah, I'm not opposed to rewording it. I just thought that just a thought that came up there. Representation. That's the definition. Not all continents. Maybe. BIPOC representation. Does that. It's an awful lot of words, but. Equity. Okay. Miss. Has. Hands off. Yes. So I don't know if this would be the recommendation itself, but it should be noted like there was a specific target of. Well, basically Paul was like. The three quarters of the group has to be BIPOC. Yeah. So I don't know if that would be in this or if that would be like more of the recommendation coming from the consultant, but that's something to consider that you can do in that way. You don't have so that it's just written in the bylaws of, or the. The charge of the group so that that structure doesn't change. Yeah, like what we have right now. Yeah. Yeah. And my feeling is that regardless of what the consultant recommends or whatever it is. We're going to insist that that be part of the charter. That's right. It is an oversight group. So I think it's brilliant. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. And I'll let me. Let's see. Mr. Delaney may need to cover your ears for this, but. Let me, I will say confidentially to this group that. I think our current police chief. You know, I think he's well intentioned, but I also think that he has figured out how to often say the right thing and even write the right policy, but not necessarily figured out how to get his police officers to actually behave. In the way that's described in the policy. And that's part of why I'm. And I think he is likely to back the creation of a. Citizen oversight group and then try to make sure it has no power. And that, that may be unfair, but that's what I want to be prepared for. And that's why I'm specifically asking these questions about how are they sometimes limited and how can they be. Those limitations be avoided. Can I just forgive me if forgive me if I'm too cynical. No, you're not. I'm with you. I'm with you. I thought about that too. Can I just say that somewhere in that section, was it C. Pat that you miss Pat that you said you didn't really care about the training section. So it's not so much about training though. It's like, how do you get them to, how do you get the police officers to look through the lens of. For equity, right? So. That is the piece that we need. It's, it's a piece of information that we need to be able to use. If that can come through some training, but not all the training, right? So it's just basically how do we get them to see through the lens of D. That's right. Yep. Yep. Well said. Yes. I don't know where to put that or how that happens, but. Well, that. I don't know where to put that. I don't know where to put that. I don't know where to put that. I don't know where to put this with that. And if he doesn't, we'll. Maybe Dr. Love can help us with that some and we'll. But I think it has to be in our final report. All right. Anything else here about citizen oversight? Scroll up. I'm not actually sure. Oh, yeah. Anthony. Roman numeral three seems kind of. Unusual to me. Well defined set of questions and tasks and goals and in Roman numeral one, but then Roman numeral three is. About playing timekeeper. And it seems like a strange fit to me. Well, again, I was working from something that I thought. I guess just the first sentence, the second sentence sentence is fine, but the. All right. Well, maybe I can go back to the town managers words here. Let's see. I think the earlier version was to facilitate the report writing process. The consultant will develop a plan, including a timetable for action to assist the working group with meeting its goal of issuing a report. By the dates above. We like that language better. Is the, is there a report coming out of, of this version because there's. I have been number one as a report as its end product. Is there one here as well? I guess there is. Yes. Yeah. Yes. It's in the bottom of four. Okay. Let's see. Alicia has her hand up. Yeah, go ahead. Alicia. Yep. I'm just wondering, or as clarification to this. Section because beneath we have like the timelines to be developed with the town manager and the CSWG. So are we referencing two different timelines? Or would we be also developing that timeline with the consultants? Part of what I imagine is the consultant is going to come up with a whole bunch of information and get it to us and say, you know, here are a couple of key decision points. If you want me to write a report, I think it's going to be about a couple of things. And then I'm going to add a couple of things to that. So I think that we need to know by. This state, which direction you're going on this issue. And by this state, which direction you're going on that issue. That that was the way I was thinking about it, but. But maybe we'd just leave that out. That's okay with me. I think the way that you said it the second time makes a lot more sense to me than how it was written before. Can you give it back to me? I can write it. I don't think I ever had it written though. Did I? No, you said it out loud. So, and also Russ, can I just ask, it starts at Roman numeral two. Are you missing something? Or did you just get misnumbered? No. No, Roman numeral. All the way at the top. So nice. One. Got it. Thank you. It looks like a one, but it's actually an eye. Is that coming up? No. I don't think I ever had it written though, did I? No, you said it out loud. So and also Russ, can I just ask it starts at Roman numeral two. Is that come close to this? Yes, but maybe. For timely correspondence as it relates to the development of recommendations, because I don't know, will they be creating the timetable for the completion of the report or will that be what we create with the town manager and ourselves? We'll tell them we need the deadline by this date. And then the, they will be trying to config figure out a schedule for them to do. The recommendations for the final report. Okay. Can you suggest I'm, I'm, I, I'm in agreement. Can you suggest some language? Yeah, it was just to develop a timetable for timely. Correspondence in regards to the development of recommendations for inclusion instead of completion. Cause I don't. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think they would be coming up with the timeline for when the report should be completed. They would just be coming up with the timeline as to when they would need to know from us, which way we're leaning on certain issues in order to inform how they report. Can I say communication instead of correspondence? Yeah. I think that's fine. Was that doing. As is. I think that works better for me, Mr. Delaney. I'm wondering if that is more clear than what we had before because that was the initial question. I had my hand up and then I took it down because I'm still kind of mulling it over. I think my general recommendation is that this group or the committee should develop as much of a timetable. Before hand and set it for the vendor. Going in hiring someone and going into the. Relationship without it. Without a timetable, even a, even a timetable for communication. I think would be perilous. So. I would urge, I would urge you to. To have a target dates, you know, they, they may slip. They, they can, but. You know, analysis of procedures done by certain date. Recommendations for best practices done by another date. And. I would urge you to have it let's sit down. All right. Can, can we just delete the highlighted sentence? Okay. Let's delete that. I don't think we can talk about a. Time frame here. We don't know whether we need this. All done by mid-June or whether we're. Going into the fall. So I don't, I don't see how we can set dates until we get some of that work done. With the whole group and the town manager. Oh, I wasn't suggesting you said it tonight. Yeah. Yeah. Alicia. Yeah. So then my question would just be then, would we need to. Request an extension from the town council before we were able to finalize this document. That's a good question. I don't know. I think that's a town manager question. Miss bad. So, um, When I first saw the original document. And then when I volunteer to be in the subcommittee. And our two charges, the first one recommending alternative. Public safety services. Just in my head, I said, we need to split this project. So, um, Into phase one and phase two. My understanding is that the face to. Will not impact the budget. This fiscal year. So, um, The face one, the alternative services, whatever we recommend. And if the town council approved them. They will need funding. So what I'm trying to say is that we should. Go ahead and, you know, do, uh, complete the face to. Uh, I FB. If the town council approved it, then we can flung in the dates. I don't think we should wait, you know, for them to, you know, for us to put this on hold to get approval from town council. Does that make sense? Alicia. Uh, yes. So I think that makes perfect sense. And I would agree, but then my follow-up question would just be, is that something we are allowed to do? Can we put it out like this and then put the dates in after. Uh, I think we can. Put this out to the community safety working group. Uh, and, uh, maybe Jennifer can alert the town manager to. Our recommendations about money and time and the need for that. We're going to need to have a conversation with the whole group and the town manager about time frames. I don't think we need to figure that out tonight. Is bad. Can we see the, the one that, um, the Lenny put together. The document that you put together. We're done with this, correct? This one. Okay. I think we're done with this part of it. I'm going to, let me make sure I get it saved. I'm going to put it. Okay. The, the version. The version that I created was just Mr. Vernon Jones's text. Plugged. Plugged it plugged into our boilerplate. Oh, I did. And then I got yours and it was essentially the same. Okay. I don't think it would profit us too much to look at what I did because. It doesn't have any of the revisions or it doesn't, it was only a format change. It didn't change any text. So we're keeping the same. Minimum requirements, right? That's what, yeah. So if somebody going to. Plug this into the boilerplate now. I guess that's what I'm trying to ask. Yes. So what I would offer slash suggest is that. You send me the final version of the. Whatever the final version of this text is at the end of the night. Okay. I'll, I'll plug it in. To the IFB and turn it back to you guys sometime tomorrow. Thank you. Okay. That's great. And if you can just. Any place we need a date if you can. Just put date and capital letters. Yeah. But we really need to dialogue with the town manager to set the dates, I think. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Ross. And Alicia for the work. Thank you. Thank you. Well, thank, thank everybody. This is, it's, it's, it's really a team effort. I like this team. I do it too. Can we, can we go back and talk about a couple of things with regard to the bid that's currently out? Anthony. So. I have received some early feedback. From two people on that. I'm not sure if you have any questions, but whenever you'd like to. Me to start talking about that. Well, let. Is it okay with everybody? If we talk now about the bid that's currently out. I'm fine. I'm okay with that. Are we, are we finished looking at this one? Like is the next following step just to place it into the template, or will we revisit this after we start talking about it? I think the next step is to put this in the template and indicate where we need dates. And then we'll take it to the whole group. The whole group may want to make changes and we need to talk about the dates together. Yeah. So with regard to the first bid, I thought that we made a decision when we were meeting that we were going to actually remember, we had a long discussion about the. The plan to do that. And then we decided to make a decision for April 1st to do all the community outreach that we wanted to do. And Mr. Backelman then suggested maybe there should be two separate bids and have the community outreach piece go longer. Then the. Alternative services. And I thought we had agreed that that was what was going to happen. As moist and went back and looked at the. Yeah. I agree. But also I think it was a little weird. You know, we talked about the tape or transcript of the meeting. And we never actually took a vote. But at any rate, that's not what happened. Well, we now have out is. Is one. A bid that has three, three parts to it. But it also has some problems with the dates. Yeah, I'm sorry. I totally missed that. I do not work. Yeah. Okay. Alicia. I also just had a question about the first bid. So we, we talked about splitting it in sections and then the fact that we were going to be requesting people to submit their bid on each section. But it says that bidders can bid on any or all of the sections. So I was also just a little bit confused about that language because I thought that our intention in splitting it up was so that we didn't have one consultant doing all of the sections. So the way it's currently worded where it says someone can bid on any or all. Would mean that if someone bid on all three and we're qualified for all three and we're the lowest bidder, all three, then yes, if that happened, we would have just one consultant. I can't, I can't really. Envision a mechanism for prohibiting that just for the, the idea that we would want to. To split it. To split it up. I mean, we're considering all three separately, but if someone has the best proposal, for all three of them, then they'll get it. Okay. Yeah. No, I'm not opposed to it. I just was unclear because I thought that we weren't allowed to do that. Like I thought that was the case. So. No, it's totally fine. So if. Let's suppose somebody. Bids only on part one. And somebody else bids on all three. The one who bids on all three has the lowest bid for. Doing the total job. But that their bid for part one is higher than the. Person who bid only on part one. Can we take the. The low bid for part one. And then. Yes. Take the part of the one that. If they're the low bid on the other pieces, take the other two pieces. Yes, we're considering an award for a. Lowest price and award for B and award for C. The total price is on the form, but it doesn't really come into the award decision where we're looking at A and B and C separately. Okay. Well, I do think we have a problem because the. Top of the bid document says that the contract will end April 1st. And further down in the document, it has. Due dates that are. Well into April. So that's a problem regardless. Anthony. I'm sorry. I am having technical issues, Jen. Are you able to. I just got kicked out of my work PC. Are you able to get into town hall right now? Are you in law? Are you in, are you using log me in? You're muted. I can't use log me in for zoom meetings because it ends up playing out on the. Computer at work. Yeah. No, I mean, I have the camera there. Okay. Are you looking for the bid? Yeah, I was hoping to look at the bid, but I can't get into my work computer right now. So. Do you have it? I'll. I think so. I think. I'll just pretend. It's okay. I'll just pretend I'm a bitter. And well, go into the public portal. Oh, you know what? Actually, I can get it. I know how I can do this. Now I have it here. Here. Okay. Can you see this? Yes. Thank you. Okay. So here. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. My dream. It shall be until April 1st. Can I say his closet. Do you see where I'm pointing? Yes, I do. Sorry. I'm talking to my son. And then we have later dates down further. Yeah. Yeah, we've got. Final report April 30th. Okay. So that's one issue. But the other issue is that. I don't know. Maybe is, is April 30th. Late enough for the. The community outreach piece. I mean, this looks like part B final plan, April 2nd. That's the. That's the alternative services part, right? No, I think that final. I don't know why it says plan there. I would think that there was also a report. For part B. But let me let me ask the subcommittee members. Do we think we can live with. The dates that are here. Is part B is a final plan and report on April 2nd. And then outreach, the final report April 30th. Alicia. I can't specifically recall how our meeting went, but I thought that we. The 30th was the last state that we could push it out to, because something needed to happen in the beginning of May. I, I can't really quite remember. Was there a reason we chose that date. In the first place. So I think that the, the earlier date is a result of trying to get stuff in for the budget on time, right? And then the second one. Was still so that Paul can get a report to the. To the council. I think, right? Because. The, the earlier one has is because of the budget. We don't want to wait to the last day before the budget is due. Right. And the, it was his latest state for the budget was May 1, right? No, he, he. Submits his budget for May 1st. Yeah. So. And Deborah was like, we can't wait. So I, maybe I have it mixed. So the reason why the April 9th deadline. Or the. 23rd one was no. For part B is four to 2021. Right. Yeah. That was to make the budget. Part B was alternative services for the budget. And we went back and forth between April 2nd and April 9th. And I don't know whether we ever really decided. Well, it was April 9th. I believe. Yeah. Yeah, I thought that. I thought this here, this was going to be April 9. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, we can't change anything right now. You can't, I mean, yeah, we. No, no, no, I was just highlighting it. Oh, okay. And then Anthony, I can. Show you the meeting or send you the meeting if you need like. Confirmation on them. That was what the decision was made. I mean, I mean, we had a lot of dates going. Back and forth that meeting. Yeah. What I have here is where the document was at the end of the night. So. I don't need to go back to the meeting. I'll change it to whatever the. Will issue. I'll issue an addendum tomorrow without the correct date is. I'll change the date in the purchase description to be May 1. Or whatever date. I usually read upon. I will change. The part B final plan to make to April 9th. Any other, any other changes? Well, can we make part? Final plan and report. Final. From final plan to final report. So, so you're amending. You're going to be amending the. April 9th. Okay. Okay. So the April 9th, I thought is when a CSWG is going to. The presenting to some council. For draft recommendations of alternative public service service. I thought that's what is happening that day. I think Deborah has suggested that date. If you were presenting on April 9th, then you'd need the report. That's my recollection. Yeah, I think let's, let's leave part B. At April 2nd. Okay. Give us some time to work with whatever they produce. But the question is how long do we want the outreach to go on? You want my opinion and I'm not speaking for anyone. Okay. Yeah, go ahead. Well, I look at this and I'm just praying that we get a robust response. But doing outreach in our community with different groups that we have. It's not even enough time. You know, perhaps it might be a pilot like pick some larger focus group. And then we can continue next year or something like that. There's no one, you know, whoever gets this contract will be able to hit all the groups we need to reach in our community. It's practically impossible. So I just, yeah. Alicia. I agree with Miss Pat and I don't know if this is something like beyond the IFB that we could also put into our recommendations, but I think that community outreach needs to be outgoing because even once we're finished with our work and we implement these changes, we still want feedback from the community to know if it's even working. So I think the community outreach aspect also needs to be ongoing because we can't really evaluate our work without the feedback of the community. I like that. I think we could write ongoing community outreach into the job description of the citizen oversight. But that still leaves the question of how long do we want this consultant to pursue outreach? And I don't know whether it makes it more doable to make it a later date or whether we end up paying more money if we want them to keep going. Miss Pat. Perhaps we may want whoever gets this contract or when we're doing that amendment to this document to emphasize to hit BIPOC community first in their outreach. I don't think we can hit everybody. We cannot. We cannot. So that would be a pilot to do that. And then maybe next time, you know, and maybe next time, then it would be like flower employees and, you know, other subgroups too. Well, and if the consultant trains the ambassadors, the ambassadors could continue. But it takes time to train ambassadors. That's the thing. It takes time to train ambassadors who go in, you know, and do that and collect the data that they're looking for. All right. So are we thinking we should just leave all of these dates and just change that one at the very beginning? Yeah, I think for, for what we can do right now, it's limited, but I think we should just start with this. And we know we're going to need ongoing community outreach. So I think we can figure that out in some other aspect of everything. Yeah. Okay. So Anthony, what was the other feedback you got about the. The IFB. So I got. I received one email from a national consulting outfit. That saw it and essentially their first question is, is the timeline in the IFB accurate? And when I said it was, they had some. Feedback on that. I forwarded that to Mr. Backelman and Ms. Moisten did that. Did that. I assume that didn't. That hasn't been sent to the committee yet. Okay. Let me pull that up. No, I didn't have, I was waiting. For the directive to. Yeah. Um, so I would certainly let the working group know that we cannot in good faith respond to this IFB despite our strong interest in qualifications. The work that is described in the IFB will in our estimation require a minimum of six months and possibly a year. With all due respect to the working group and the council, I believe they have set unrealistic expectations for this work and are unlikely to get the kinds of proposals or the things that they're hoping to receive. By way of reference, both the clients with whom we are currently working on this type of work are several months in. Larry school or director or senior, director, senior facilitator, Kearns and West. That's, that's only one person's opinion and it's. One day after the bid went live, but. And it was national as well. Right. So they're a pretty sizable outfit. Yeah. Yeah. He said, he said he's worked with. Was it Salt Lake? Salt Lake City. It's bad and then Alicia. You know, if I had said this like six weeks ago, they would say, what is this middle-aged African woman talking about? You know, so no surprise there. I would be really, I'm really curious. And I'm a very positive woman. I'm repeating myself. I'd be curious to see what we get. Honestly, I think this subcommittee. We should try to really. Guide the larger group. What is realistic? What I'm proposing. Is since this is already out. Let us speak few groups in our community at the pilot. Program. To work on, on the committee engagement. And I think it's really important. Rather than being broad, rather than going out to all the groups, that's impossible. If you want to do Hispanic group. You know, African American group. Eight, you know, eight, you know, within age, Asian, the more population we have here. But not everybody. We can't catch everybody. Let's speak like four different groups or something like that. And it's just number I'm throwing up. That is more realistic and have the ambassadors. The other issue is translation as well. It looks like the town doesn't want to pay for translation. They want the money to come out of the same budget. We're not being realistic with this budget. I'm, I'm, I'm just telling you guys. It's, it's, it's not doable. The timeframe is just ridiculous. We can do it. They can't. Yeah. Does that make sense to people? Yeah. So I just want to say that I completely agree with Mrs. Pat. And I've been feeling very concerned about the reality of what we're asking people to do in the timeframe in which. We are asking them to do it. Was my first concern, but like now tonight, I also am concerned with the budget to be completely honest. So I'm concerned with all of these things now. And I actually, I did bring it up at our last group meeting. My, my deep concern with the timeline that we have for the IFB that's already live. And I recall the feedback that I got from the group was that. We're more concerned with meeting the timeline because we want our recommendations to be taken seriously and to be able to inform the budget process of the next fiscal year. And we don't want our recommendations to be. Not considered because we don't meet a certain timeline. And so I think if we're going to be realistically thinking about that and looking at this, like, yes, the, the bids already out. It's, it's live. We're going to see what we get back. If we get anything back and we'll evaluate then, but I think we should be prepared for the reality that we might not get any bids at all. And that that's going to push us back even further because then if we amend the document or put out another thing, that's we have to go through this entire process again. And so I, I just want us to be realistic or maybe come up with a plan B as a group for if we aren't able to retain a consultant to do the work that we need to do in a reasonable amount of time, because we also don't want to waste the time that we have trying to figure out how we can retain a consultant. So I don't know where to start really with that, but I think it's looking a lot more likely and I had kind of feared this before because this is a huge ask. And I think this absolutely needs to be documented in our recommendations that, that this process. Like I know this is the first time we're doing it, but it was very flawed. And in order for us to make appropriate recommendations, we would have needed more time for this process itself, let alone the process of actually getting to the process of making the recommendations. So I don't really know what to do with that, but that's just how I'm feeling right now. Jennifer. So I think that was part of the reason why I sent out that. That was to get people's minds thinking because I didn't want to come out and say, because, you know, sometimes I think Anthony has said that the bids come out very close to the end, like people start submitting them very close to the end, to the deadline of them. And so that could be the case. But I just think that as a group, we need to just, and also I think even if we do have somebody, but we start thinking about what, or you guys do have someone and you start thinking about what you guys want to do, it'll make the scope of the work more targeted. If that makes sense for A and B. And so it's just, I just think that all the eggs are in one basket and we, because we don't have wouldn't have enough time to, to go out and rebid. So it's either that you have to ask for like a whole year or a month or something, or, and a decent sized budget. And if you don't spend a lot of money out of this first pot, then you have that, you can see if you can get that. I don't know Anthony. Do you get to keep what you didn't spend or no, that depends on, that depends on the nature of the, of the way it was budgeted. Yeah. I don't know. Actually, I spent like the first 15 minutes of this meeting trying to find the budget article in units and I couldn't. So. No, it's probably not there yet. Or it's in town manager's budget. Yeah. This path. Okay. So I'm going to blow this out. Okay. So basically what I've been hearing in the community is when it comes to stuff that will benefit. BIPOC web in nickel and dined. And the next community is where resourced. And so if this is really a priority for our government, our town government. And everybody. This is the time to show it. We shouldn't be rushed to do this. And I'm going to repeat myself next week. That's what I'm hearing people are like, you know, you know, they just want to check. Like we tried, you know, we want to make changes in our mess. And then we just like, have you rushed everything? They won't, you know, get enough funding to do this. And they will say, we try to do this. That's how I'm feeling. That's how I'm feeling. And then I hope that our group will push back a little bit. We have to get this right. So we have her. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Jennifer and then Elation. So I have heard some very similar. And I will, and I've also said the bid is just crazy. But what I will say is. We're in a position where we can really put a lot of pressure on town council, whether it was town council's intentions or not to nickel and dime, we can just basically say they didn't really have an idea of. The scope or, or the, how in depth this is the work is like, they just, you know what I mean? So I won't talk about their intentions or being purposeful. They just didn't know. And I think that what they were really looking for was just recommendations on how to move forward. And then it just has like. Grown into something bigger. And there's, we also are in a position because everybody's up for reelection. So those people who are wanting to be like, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, it is the time to, if we're going to, if you have to push back, I'm not saying that you would, but if you had to push back or if you had to apply some pressure, now would be the time. Or because everybody's getting ready. It's just a, it's all politics at the end of the day. And so you have to. Treat it as such. So I think that you guys, you know, I think that you guys, if you don't have the budget money, I don't think that they would say no to you. I just think that the council themselves just perhaps weren't aware of how in depth this work really is. That's the nice way to say that. Yeah. Alicia run, run, run. We're going to put your car. Yeah, I'm sorry. Also. I'm not ready yet, but I also just think that. I have also received similar feedback from the community that that we're being asked to do this work for a ridiculous amount of money and I'm feeling very much the same way myself to be completely honest and I'm very optimistic I want to make that clear but I'm feeling slightly discouraged because Amherst is a very wealthy town and it sort of pains me to hear town officials talk about how we don't have it in our budget to do this. We don't have it in our budget to do that when we're talking about things that are going to benefit the community that we're trying to benefit. And we already have poured generous amounts of money into the white affluent communities that don't really need it. There are tiny bits of that money and to invest it into a community that's suffering. Now, I don't understand where the question is there it kind of frustrates me, especially with things like like translation services like I understand we're also a smaller town, and it makes more sense for bigger cities to have translation services readily available at any minute but that does not matter because that adds to why our community is not equitable. We're trying to have an equitable committee community we need to address these things, and I think that that all ties into why the town council did not anticipate this work being so extensive, because we have not put the attention into this community. And that's why this work is extensive and I think it deserves the time and attention. I was saying like forgive me for being blunt but a saying that I have come across a lot in my life and in my line of work is that rushing is is a product of white supremacy. Yeah, and meeting timelines is literally a product of white supremacy we need to do this by this time, because people of color do things with care and we take our time and I think this is exactly the kind of work that needs to be done with care and that we need to take the time to do it because we don't want to rush recommendations that are going to be so critical to people's livelihood. And so I think we need to find a creative way to get something in to meet the deadline that we have to meet because we are we are functioning in white supremacy right now. But this is what we're trying to dismantle so to be able to also make that very clear to the town council that this is not how the process can continue to work if this is the community we want to serve. Exactly, exactly. We should do, we should, we should still do the recommendation for the April 9. We will really encourage our larger group. So, in a submit our recommendation through Miss Moystein and since it to become manager we should still do that. But in terms of the IFP, it should be a pilot project. It's what I'll push for. We can reach all the segment of our community for the community engagement to have a report done for us by a consultant. I don't care where they come from, whether it's national or local. Nobody can hit everybody by April. I think that's, that's our message in that next week meeting to push for pilot program and decide on the groups we want to focus on. For the initial one will be my recommendation. I'll say I'm in tremendous agreement with virtually everything you just said, including the white supremacy and timeline situation. I know that I'm right about this, but my recollection is this 80,000 got set aside early on in the process of the council responding around George Floyd's murder before the community safety working group was ever set up. When they set, you know, put us in motion they were like oh they can use that 80,000. It wasn't like anybody ever thought about appropriating money that was dedicated to our group. And I'm all for pushing more time more money, long range. And I want to make sure we don't miss a political opportunity that exists because we have these two police department positions on hold. And if we've got an opening this spring to get those converted to alternative services. I don't want to miss that chance to get something set up and started, even if it's a pilot. Even if we haven't done all the research that we want to do. Because if we can get that established and something in the and a good chunk in the budget to expand it the next year. Then we've really, then we can really make something happen. Jennifer. Yeah, so I think behind the scenes there were talks about the group but that piece doesn't really matter so much. I just, what if we leave this bid open and do the same thing right like we'll leave this one open and let it or open and close or however you call that right so that closes we don't accept any bids. Back to the part of the recommendation to the council is we need a lot much larger budget a because the consultant alone to do the work is at minimum 70 $80,000 at minimum. Right. And then for that's for one section of it. Right. And so we're saying we need I don't know 250 whatever the dollar amount is because then you have the ambassador program, the card program. If we can ever go back to in person stuff you guys would definitely need to go into the complexes and have things like barbecues and stuff like that. So you just you need money. Right. And so that's the biggest piece of one of the recommendations is that you have a stable budget. Right. And then you take that and then you can kind of start over with this and the other section of it to and then it you can run it and say you have a year. Right so that people can get the work done and do it done thoroughly and or whatever amount of time the group decides that it would but if we just table it all until after we put in the budget. So I think that one of the first things we need to do is address the budget. I think we need a strong recommendation for or you guys need to start I'm so sorry I'm just so into it. We know, we know you're part of us. And I think that the two. I don't think I think that the two positions at the police station will stay open. But I think we need a strong recommendation on how to fill those two positions. And so we could say that three quarters of it goes to whatever social workers or whatever however we want to do that. And then we have a quarter of it that's going to go to all the stuff that you guys are saying should come out of the police budget and not out of your budget right so then you can divide that up. I had one more really good thought but I just it just slipped the top of my just slipped from my mind. I just feel like we could there's stuff that you guys could be doing now that's progressive and moving you guys forward. And my fear, there's so many ways to get trapped in local government it's, and it's not necessarily like purposeful. There's it's just, it's so complicated for like no reason sometimes I know Anthony you know what I'm talking about just like unreasonably like complicated and it just, you're like why. But that's just the way that it is for some reason right but we, you guys can can set a standard and set a goal and meet that and and appease everything I honestly don't think that anytime soon that you need to have a consultant for you guys to get those recommendations and just need to send them to me I can draft them out and so that we the duplicates we can get rid of, and then everybody breaks off in groups and works on those recommendations on how to get it done. Right, like, and then bam, it's done and part of that recommendation is the whole thing with the consultant in the budget. If I may add, I also want us to be very clear that when we're talking about racial equity work budget, we're not talking about the face to the face to should take care of itself from police budget. But we're asking for I want us to be very, very clear that we're asking for phase one budget to be increased. I already know in my head how much I will throw out there. I'm just only but only, I'm only one person from eight people, but I know what I have in my, in my brain, in my head that I think will make sense to do the project, but I can't. Yeah, and so I also just want to say that I don't know that the council necessarily do know but I to be neutral and fair like that they always think about things through the lens of DEI right so to give an unrealistic date to them isn't necessarily should be taken as and they just don't know right they don't look at things through that vision they don't understand that, and I just feel like it's a good lesson for everybody, and it's a good opportunity for us to show like you guys take I don't know, six months to come up with a decision about one thing. How can we come up with the whole plan in less than nine months right like it's, there's no right so they don't, they just don't understand and so part of what it has to be is they have to be educated on why this takes so long, right you can't just change people's lives and not ask them that's just insane. Right, like you just. Yeah, so anyways, I'm drawn. Thank you so much very. That was great. Yeah, Alicia. Yes, thank you miss moist and I really appreciate your comment and I just wanted to say that also though I strongly agree with what Mr. Vernon Jones was speaking about before, and that I think. And then I guess miss moist and and miss I also said the same thing that we still need to get our recommendations out regardless of the timeline and so yes, I like strongly agree with that we don't want to miss it's a huge political opportunity and we need to be on top of that. I think that there is a lot of value in our ability to present to the town council why this is problematic and I think we also need to be on top of that. And in a timely manner so that they can work on addressing these things as well, because our timeline is because of their timeline. So if we need to let them know why our timeline doesn't work to inform their timeline, moving forward in the future. I think like, yeah, what miss moisten said this is a huge learning process for everybody so I think though that it's our responsibility to make sure the town council understands this because they're it's not really a learning process for them if we don't bring it to them. Yeah. So basically they need to double the budget or whatever we have right now. So do that there's one or even move. I'm thinking more. Don't you think more like triple. But I mean I don't know how and then you just have to go up 100,000 just because right because they're going to say oh well no we're not going to. If we want 3000 and we say we need 5000 and then they come back and say we're not going to be 5000, but maybe 3000. I don't know if it works like that but that's. Yeah, because it involves labor it involves I would depend then make it even make it more challenging. I guess what I'm not hearing tonight as a consensus is, are people open to pilot projects, because we don't want to set up any consulting firm or individual for failure. Are people feeling that somebody can realistically hit all the groups in this town in few weeks. No, I don't think that was ever realistic. Okay. I just want to make sure I think we want to focus on some marginalized communities I mean mostly BIPOC probably homeless as well. And, you know, I'm not. I'm not sure it's realistic for us to think about doing everybody even in the next year. That gets a longer term project even than that. Anthony, if we, if the bid comes in too high, or if we don't get any bids, or we decide we don't want to spend that much on what's being bid. But we still feel we need some help somebody to do some research somebody to maybe just to train the ambassadors. Can that be done by asking for three quotes. Yes, assuming you're going to spend under $50,000. Yes, you can solicit three quotes. And can you solicit them. I mean, you know, can we go only to three people of color to ask for for quotes. You can. Yeah, you can solicit any three companies that you believe can do the work companies individuals with. Yeah, three three vendors. Okay, so if there are some particular tasks we feel we have to get done in order to have our recommendations ready. We might, you know, we could ask on only people we would like to have do it. So that goes to, I agree that goes to Alicia's question I do, we should have a plan B, and this should be our plan B. You know, the bid comes back and we, you know, we didn't like him or you didn't work out, then perhaps can we negotiate and have some, you know, people, you know, to do that for us, I like that. I think that's great idea Mr. Ross. I like that. Alicia. I also agree. I think that's a great idea and I think, though, that that should be something proposed to the group, because I think my idea would be that our next group meeting we'd also want to inform the rest of the group about the responses that we received to the bid. And then also state that as our suggestion that we came up as a subcommittee but that we're presenting it to the group to see how they also feel about it, because I think it might be important to establish that in the near future. Yeah. Anthony. I don't want to cut off any other discussion but there was a second email. I was going to ask. Oh yeah. Yeah. The second email was only asking questions. First question, can you provide the estimated not to exceed budget amount for the period of performance. My suggestion would be that we declined to answer, which is totally within our, our purview. Second question, how many members make up the working group I can answer that how many total employees for the town how many managers, I got those numbers from human resources today. Fourth question, is the town open open to an alternative approach, based on evidence based best practices, and I asked them to clarify that question. And they said, for example, our framework will still achieve the town's goal of ending structural racism and achieving racial equity, and will be in alignment with the scope of work. In addition, we focus on establishing data driven benchmarks by conducting a racial equity audit assessment of all departments and focusing on engaging and developing department leaders with our toolkit. My suggested answer would be something like that is open to to the vent to a vendors approach, but is not able to make any alterations to the scope of work as laid out. Something something like that. We would want to be careful. We would want to be careful not to change the scope, not to allow the vendor to change to change the scope and the interest of fairness, I mean we could say that we wanted to change something in the scope the amendment, but I also don't want to cut someone off if they have if they have something that works in our framework that we didn't explicitly lay out. So I'm wondering about that if we I know we I mean I'm sure we need some type of response but if we don't like if we just allow them to submit their bid in whatever way that they were going to submit it and whatever ideas that they have. Is that something we can just review when we review our bids and decide if it works for us, or I'm not sure if I really understand. Yeah, I mean, where the definition of what works for us is it broadly complies with the scope of work that we laid out, then, then yes, is essentially yes. And I am not knowing entirely what to expect from in response here I I I'll try to be vague because I don't know if someone will if someone will propose something very elaborate or very simple. This is it's kind of a it's kind of an open question to me exactly what the nature of the responses. So I'm planning on being surprised by whatever we do get but I just I have to step away for a sec I'll be right back. Okay. Okay, so it's not a block already. Okay. Yeah, we should stop. We should stop soon in any case. Anthony, I think your answer is fine. In other words, yeah, send us send us anything but we're not able to change the scope of work, you know, simply because that's the bid process. Yeah. I think the danger is that we will get some people have a canned approach that they have used before and use everywhere. It isn't really quite a fit for what we're looking for but they would try to sell it as something that is about, you know what we want. And that that can be tricky. I mean that's likely what we're going to get anyways, because we were understood what Mr. Delaney just read to us is that they will use like whatever, like audit format, whatever information that is already existing they will not do a community engagement to come up with recommendation for us is what they're asking. And so that boils down to quality. And that's not what we're looking for. It's one, you know, a farmer individual that will do a total work. So, I think I agree with your answers. I think your responses is I supported. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so I will be issuing an addendum to the IFB tomorrow that changes the date in the first section and changes. And then I'll send a final report and also will answer those bidders questions. So I won't, I won't send that. That's fairly inconsequential so I don't think I'll send it to the full committee. That's not. Yeah, yeah, I think. Yeah, you can. You can say the subcommittee agreed you should go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. That would be the one. Yeah, we'll take responsibility. I don't want to be upset that you'd be upset with us. That's right. That's right. Thank you, Ms. Myston. Thank you, Mr. Delaney for your time. Oh my God. Yes, yes, yes. I'm not ending your job at all. Two papers to write. Well, they're not papers, but you know, you have to, because it's online, you got to do those discussion things. Yeah. Yeah. Well, with no further ado, are we ready to adjourn? Seconded. 909. I'm going to get all for this one. Hearing no objection, we are adjourned. Good night everybody. Thank you. Good night. Thanks everybody.