 This week on the anxious truth, we're talking about the intersection between anxiety anxiety disorders and neurodivergence issues like ADHD or autism spectrum disorder. So let's get to it. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. Welcome to episode 277 of the anxious truth, even though I made a mistake during the interview that you'll hear later and call to 276. It's not. This is episode 277 of the anxious truth. Welcome. I am Drew Lincellata, creator and host of this fine podcast and YouTube channel. If you're watching on YouTube, hey, YouTube. This week, we're talking about the intersection between anxiety anxiety disorders and neurodivergence issues like ADHD or autism spectrum disorder. I have a special guest on this week who is pretty experienced with this well trained in this and I trust to talk about it. It's a question that I get asked all the time. I have ADHD or I am on the autism spectrum and I don't know what it means for my anxiety or my anxiety recovery. Can I still get better? Can I use these principles? There's this method air quotes work for me. So I have Dr. Terry Bacow with me today. She's a clinical psychologist based here in New York City, not too far from me. Again, she takes a clinical, she takes a CBT approach to anxiety and anxiety disorders. So what she says, we'll stand very familiar, but she also has a particular interest in neurodivergent issues. And she's rubbed elbows with a lot of people who are very well versed in those issues, very well respected in that community and published a lot of really good work in that community. So when it came time to actually address this and answer some of those questions, Terry seemed like the obvious choice to me. So we have her on this week. And before I get into that, just a quick reminder, as always, every week, the anxious truth is more than just this podcast episode or this YouTube channel. There are 276 other videos and podcast episodes that came before this. There are books that I've written on anxiety and anxiety disorders. There are very low cost, I think, pretty affordable workshops and courses. There's the podcast I did with Josh Fletcher called Disordered. All of those things can be found on my website at theanxiestruth.com. So if you're looking for more than just this particular video or you want to know more about this approach to anxiety and anxiety disorders, go to theanxiestruth.com, check it out, avail yourself of everything that's there. People tell me it's helpful, so I'd like to think that it is. I'm pretty proud of all that work. And I appreciate the support that all of you have shown me over the years in producing that work. So go check it out. Let's get to it in this episode again. I kind of messed up. I said that it was episode 276. It's not 277. So if you want to get to the show notes for this episode, it's theanxiestruth.com slash 277. But the interview with Dr. Prakow was really great. We went for about 25 minutes. It is jam-packed full of great information from a great source reputable that I trust. So I think you guys are going to enjoy it, whether or not you are dealing with neurodivergent issues for yourself or a loved one, or you're just interested in the topic. She was really great. I'm definitely going to have her back for sure in the future to talk more about this stuff. So let's get to it. And then at the end, I will come back for a wrap-up as usual. I hope you enjoy it. Let's get to it. Hello, Terry. Welcome. Thanks for coming. Thank you for having me. You're very welcome. It has taken us a while to get together to do this, but here we are. And we're going to address a topic that I know I get asked about a lot. And I needed to find somebody that I can trust to talk about this. And you wrote that really most excellent article with this ADHD focused. And I thought, and I'll put this all in the show notes, by the way, I'll tell you about that later. But I thought if we could talk about that intersection between sort of anxiety recovery and neurodivergence, it would be super helpful. Absolutely. Yeah. In your practice, is this something that you see on a reasonably regular basis or once in a while? How common is this intersection? Do you think? I see so many clients who have either a primary diagnosis of ADHD or ADHD co-occurring with an anxiety disorder or condition. And it's incredibly common. I think this is not my practice. Yeah. What makes it, and the question I get asked all the time. And again, I've always promised to get somebody on who can answer it. Because I don't feel qualified enough or experienced enough in that area to really address it is where, what does it change? So if there is that co-occurrence there, the co-morbidity, you're dealing with an anxiety disorder and a neurodivergent issue like ADHD, what changes? What's different? First of all, I'd like to say that over that tends to be about 28%. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So it's quite common. It's more common than not to have anxiety co-occurring with ADHD than any other condition. And in terms of what changes, I mean, I think that the way that we make the distinction that anxiety is something that, you know, interferes in a daily life. It's really problematic. It's sometimes crippling. Whereas ADHD is a disorder of executive function, which I could talk more about. Yeah. What's tricky about this is that a lot of folks with ADHD are understandably anxious. Okay. Because it's stressful to have problems managing time, pretending, impulses, keeping track of things. So it's already stressful where you feel like sort of normal life stress anxiety that you would expect. Absolutely. Okay. I think we all have daily stressors. I think people with ADHD, they have this whole other level of stress, which is keeping organizing and we use executive function. I mean, planning, organizing, managing time, you know, keeping together. Yeah. That is something that we do every day. So if you have ADHD, it's going to be incredibly stressful. It's going to add a level of stress amongst other stressors that we all have. Yeah. So in a situation where that is what's going on, we add that additional stress factor into the additional demand if you will. We'll call it demand. So you're under a heavier load anyway. So when you're helping a client like that and you're creating a treatment plan and you're helping them address their anxiety disorder, I'm guessing this is a thing we probably need to take into account, correct? Yeah. Yeah. So I'd like to validate from a client. This is something that you're really struggling with, the type of other things that most people struggle with. And it's okay to be stressed by that. Yeah. That sounds like a very important thing because in this community surrounding the podcast, one of the things I hear people do is they get very critical of themselves. Regardless of their status as neurotypical or neurodivergent. Why can't I get this? And I'm sure you hear this all the time. You know, I know what you're saying, especially on maybe your social media content. I see, yeah, I get it. You know, Dr. Packow, I see what you're saying, but I can't seem to get it. So for somebody who's struggling even a little bit more has an extra layer. Is that a bigger problem? And it's so common. So many of my clients with ADHD and with anxiety struggle with self esteem and do the harder themselves. And what I try to do is provide with that kind of discourse, that good education. Just information. Right. Well, I explained that the neurodivergent brain has different neural anatomy that ADHD is a neurobiological problem. And how can you be hard on yourself for having different wiring? It's genetic. It's not the family. It's not your boss. It's not a choice, certainly. So I try to be displaying by kind of giving some information about the science. Yeah. And sometimes the approach, I've seen your material enough to know that you have that CBT approach to anxiety disorders. And I think that is hard enough for anybody to put their brain around. Wait, I have to go toward what I fear? Like everybody struggles with that concept. So it's normal for anybody to have a hard time understanding or accepting that concept. And I think being nice to yourself if you struggle, maybe even a little more because of just the way you're wired. It's just like being left-handed or right-handed. It's not your choice. So that self-compassion element has to be even more important, I'm guessing. 100% and self-compassion. I'm really glad you used that term. Yeah. Because the science shows that self-compassion is so much more effective than self-criticism and motivated behavior change. It's the other way. The more critical you are, the worse things are going to get for you, even though we might think it's the other way, correct? Exactly. So the more critical you are, the most diverse hormones you're going to release in your body, the less productive you'll be. And self-compassion, being kind to yourself, makes people more resilient and enables them to cope better. Okay. So if you get into the nitty gritty, first of all, let's, I know there's going to be a ton of questions here. So how does somebody, let's go back to the beginning of this. Somebody who may be struggling with an anxiety issue, a chronic or disordered anxiety issue, that isn't really even sure. Maybe they haven't been formally diagnosed yet. They suspect that something might be a mess, but they don't really know. Right there. What would you do with that client if they walk in? So a client that has anxiety, but it's undiagnosed. Undiagnosed, no, undiagnosed in terms of ADHD or. Yeah. I can't tell you again how common that is. So I spent 10 years working at a wonderful, a patient clinic called the Hallibur Center from my doctor, Matt Hallibur, who has written 20 books about ADHD, including derivative distraction, delivered from distraction. And the number of people that we saw that came in as adults, undiagnosed, is kind of bananas. And some of the folks who made their life are all of a sudden discovering that they have an ADHD diagnosis. It's more common than they would think. So if a client comes into my office and suspects that they have ADHD, what I would recommend is to get evaluated immediately. This is advice-less information to have about yourself. Yeah, it sure would be. And I'm guessing they may struggle even more with like, I can't get this. Things are different for me. I don't know what's wrong. Yeah. Well, nothing's wrong. You're just different. And we need to address that or take that into account. I'm guessing. Yes. I mean, I think that these folks suspected something is wrong. Something is a little bit off. Yeah. But once they have the diagnosis, they feel so empowered. Yeah. Yeah. That sounds like a really big deal. So in that evaluation process, who's going to do that? So there's a number of different ways ranging from the least expensive to the most. Okay. The gold standard would be neuropsychological testing, which certainly is expensive because that's the balance. But then you've got a bodily test and a full 15-page report. If that cuts prohibitive, then you could go to a psychiatrist and have a clinical evaluation. You could also go to a psychiatrist who could evaluate it. Yeah. That should be clear about that. That is not, that's a doctoral level psychologist. That is, okay. We always want to give people the right information here. Yeah. Let's speak for a second because I know that people are going to need this information and there's probably people listening right now that have light bulbs going on or I need to look into that. What, I want to be really sensitive about this and I don't want to like bad math anybody, but Terry talked about, you know, a neuropsychological evaluation, a psychiatrist that's a medical doctor and a psychologist who has gone through five years and additional advanced training of PhD level person. I hear ADHD specifically talked about in coaching circles and things of that nature. Do you run into a problem where you have people who probably shouldn't be diagnosing this, trying to do that? Have we seen this or? That, so I don't quite encounter anyone who shouldn't be diagnosed. I think you're talking about providers. Yeah. So in other words, like, you know, well, I have a coach that told me that I have ADHD. Okay. Coaching, I would be honest, in the world of psychology is an actual thing. But what I mean by that is there are executive functioning coaches who are quite talented. Sure. That being said, a diagnosis really should not be made by a coach. I think a suggestion can be made by a coach. Okay. You should get this checked out. Not. You absolutely have it. You can't tell someone that has something without them having a real understanding or clinical assessment. That about maybe some questionnaires. Yeah. Very good. Okay. That's a great answer just to clarify, you know, for people listening, like, where should I go? Who should I listen to? I love how you pointed out the value of the coaching function. Maybe once that diagnosis is there as extra support. Love it. But in terms of getting the diagnosis, you need to make sure that you go somewhere where that should be diagnosing you. So just something to keep in mind. Yeah. So now that you have the person who you know that this is an issue, there is a diagnosis in place. They're dealing with an anxiety disorder of some kind. Where does what changes in terms of the treatment? Anything. Let me explain. People will say, you know, they'll say, well, they read the books that I write or they listen to this podcast or they see people like you on social media. Like, I hear about accepting and facing and exposures, but I have ADHD. So what's different for me? What do I do differently is what I hear all the time. So what would change in terms of treatment approach if you have the diagnosis, if you got diagnosis, first and foremost, I really do recommend medications, psychiatric medications. ADHD. The kind of analogy that I'd like to use with my client is that a similar medication about that and main things like whether they're considered by brands, but for them, it's not for us. It's sort of like wearing glasses. So you could have blurry vision. You put on the glasses and you see so much clearer. You can focus. Everything comes into focus. So I always do recommend medication to my client. But beyond that, I would recommend CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, and possibly executive functioning coaching, which is suffered from CBT. It does have some CBT intervention. Yeah. But that's a supplemental thing there that I like the executive function coaching. And I think I love the way you brought medication into this. The glasses analogy I get, if I take these off, I'm done. I can't see anything. Why would I not wear them? So I mean, I think some clients need this idea of medication and have a stigma attached to it. Yeah. And I think in our community too, in terms of anxiety disorders, that can be such a divisive thing. You know, I know that there are people that feel like if I'm taking medication to deal with my anxiety, I'm not doing it right. I'm failing. So, but if you're medicating the ADHD, you're not failing on the anxiety side. That would be a really harsh thing to say to yourself. A hundred percent. And I say the same thing for anxiety. They take psychiatric medication for anxiety. The clouds, so to speak. Right. Anxiety just as ADHD is neurobiological genetic. Months of families and not a choice. Yeah. I do also recommend, in some cases, SSRI or other types of medication for anxiety. Couples with CBT. Yeah. And especially if you're dealing with another, a secondary issue to dig your heels in and say, well, I'm doing it wrong. If I get medicated, it could be really unfair to yourself. Yeah. Yeah. That's okay. Does the treatment itself, I mean, I know this is, well, clearly, since we're using more like divergence, everybody's going to be a little different. But does the treatment itself start to change? A little bit? Is it slower? Is it different? Is it? Yes. Yes. It's different. So if somebody comes to me and I have ADHD or other neurobiology burden, I might sort of change my approach as a little bird to try to simplify the therapy, you know, in terms of the skills that I'm teaching. So for example, cognitive behavior therapy, we're talking about thoughts, feelings and behaviors. Yeah. One of the hidden gems of CBT, I think this is maybe something that's not so glamorous, but incredibly potent, is problem solving. Okay. When you think of problem solving, it's like, oh, anybody could do that. But CBT therapists do it really well. They collaborate with the client. Mm-hmm. You say, okay, you have this exam. You have this challenge. Let's break it down into smaller components. Yeah. Attack on it. It's really more dangerous. It's like, okay, you have this exam. You have this challenge. Let's break it down into smaller components. Yeah. Attack on it. It's really more didactic in that way, meaning that it's a little bit more of a therapist collaborating with the client to figure out a solution. I guess that makes sense because people sometimes look at it, especially if they've never been in therapy. Well, I'm going to have CBT, which is a big, wide, huge umbrella. And each client is going to look a little different, neurodivergent or not. It doesn't matter. And so maybe in that situation, if you are, you know, have an ADHD diagnosis or an autism diagnosis, whatever it happens to be. It just means that the implementation of CBT for you with your therapist is going to be tailored and for you specific to solve or to address your specific challenges. It doesn't mean you're beyond hope or not or more broken. I've heard that. Can I get Peter? That's almost that. Yeah. I think that sometimes CBT gets a little bit of a bad back because it can be marginalized. Sometimes some CBT approaches are problematic. But I apply CBT as a really flexible manner. Like he said, challenge each client. What do they need? What skills do they benefit from the most? Yeah. Or maybe in that manualized treatment, what doesn't work for this particular person? Maybe fact checking worksheets is just not resonating. It's not striking a bell. So we're going to, we don't have to use that. Well, we'll work around that if need be. So, yeah. Yeah. Okay. I think again, that's a hope thing or a, there's the fear in that community that like, does this mean that this won't work for me? People will ask like, does that mean the things you write about in your books or in your pockets won't work for me? That's incorrect. It doesn't mean that. Sure. So to that I would say, and I have to reverse it in bias, but CBT does work. It works for most people. And certainly it's not for everyone. Some people prefer a more sacrilegial approach. I'm similar to a virgin and excited. Yeah. You really want to go to the CBT bath. It's concrete. It's solution pocket. It's action oriented. And the research that's the product. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Let's talk about people get confused sometimes about like CBT is again, it's a huge umbrella. It encompasses a bunch of different types of treatments. More. If we're talking to people who say, well, is it old school CBT? Like, but the worksheets and everything. Is it more like act? Is it DBT? What is it? It's all of those things, correct? Yeah. And then there's the neurodivergent community. You're going to take bits and pieces of other, of a bunch of it. I'm guessing. Yeah. So I, I, we talk about, about CBT. That's a good point. I mean, I think that folks who practice over the space therapy, like CBT access, CBT, love acronym. Oh boy. They're everywhere. I'm a fan. I use them all day long. That's true. We love naming the treatment, but I think it's helpful to figure out what are we practicing? What's our theoretical orientation? What are the skills? What tool box are we using? Yeah. And at the CBT, CBT do have different tools, and different philosophical, to a degree, ideas. I do all of it. I like to integrate all of these tools. Yeah. That's what I do. Yeah. It makes sense. And especially if you're dealing with a person that is individual or unique needs, you're going to use some things. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm guessing I might be a little more act-based for this client if that works for them. I might be a little more DBT-based if that works for this client. Everybody's going to be a little different. Yeah. So the perk, the cocktail, but I do recommend that we get what the client needs, what skills, what to do with them the most. Yeah. Makes perfect sense. Can we, I don't know how long we've been, I can't see my clock because of the sun. Okay. We're about 20 minutes in. What about for younger people? Is this something you feel comfortable talking about? Adolescent child populations? Another question I get asked, my child was just diagnosed. What, what, what, what does this change for them in terms of their anxiety treatment? So the intervention with the skeleton across the age spectrum. Okay. Meaning children can take some FDA approved medication or ADHD. And they do benefit from monthly from CBT as well. Yeah. So the rules, again, using that term very loosely rules would apply even for children or adolescents, teens, young adults. Yeah. A child or adolescent psychologist, what made you tell her these girls to make them more child-friendly, more understandable, maybe some more diagram, some more game to really make it more palpable for those clients. Yeah. Same principles, but targeted at the developmental stage. Yeah. Yeah. You got to take that into account. Yeah. And technically, children, the answer of ADHD isn't childhood. It used to be for the DSM, you had to be under 12 to get the diagnosis. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. So a lot of my clients who are adults, I see money 18 and over, they've had it the entire night. They might not know it, but they've had ADHD the entire night. And they did, yeah, they didn't know that. That's how we started the conversation too, like the person that, well, something I think I might, I don't, I don't know. And I've never been diagnosed. So I think this is so helpful. Because I find that it's, it's a sense of despair sometimes. It's also the, the sense of despair comes from the multiple labels. You know, I've read, I'm already diagnosed as ADHD or autistic, whatever it happens to be. And now I also got diagnosed with OCD. You know, so it feels even heavier to them sometimes. Like I have, I have all of these problems. Do you see it that way? What's the role of those labels for you? Sure. I think that's one interpretation. It's an understandable one. I would be unfazed by that. I would say it's not uncommon to have comorbidity. It's not uncommon to have more than one talent and treatment can help you. And we discovered to be a little more creative with that treatment to be able to help you. Oh, you present a very accessible and, and, and friendly look there in turn. I don't mean, not every therapist is going to be friendly. That's fine. But at least a welcoming approach like, yeah, that, that's okay. You may have two or three labels. Who knows, four labels. It doesn't matter. It's just, we can still work on that is what I'm hearing. Yeah. You know, if someone has OCD, they also have ADHD. It's potential earlier conversation. I might approach that differently. I might not give homework. Because I might expect a client might struggle with that with the organization of the homework assignment. Yeah. But it's still treatable. Interesting. And I bet that's where you could start to use some of those other tools. You talked about executive function coaching. I mean, maybe we need to help you, you know, build that skill a little bit or support your ability to do the homework before you can do the homework. And that might be a wrinkle that goes into your treatment, but a good thing, a positive thing for you. Yes. And I collaborate frequently with executive function and coaches and that my clients that are in CBT with me. Yeah. Might be a good coach in addition. And I really always make a point to touch base with that person so we can work together. What a great conversation. Executive function coaching, but that sort of fall in the realm of like occupational therapist and that type of training along those lines or is that more psychology? I'm interested in this now. You got me. Now I'm asking for me. I think that I'm just more familiar with it than I do so much of this work. And I think maybe to some people that might say, what is this? Right. But we say that I'd like to need the coaching to the coaches. Yeah. And they do really well. But the reason for that is one of the most, you know, I talk about certain interventions that are really potent when it comes to ADHD, one of the most powerful skills is something called body doubling. Have you heard of that? I am now learning, learning something new every day, if I'm not careful. So body doubling is literally the presence of another person who can just sort of partner with you to help you get the task done. So a lot of times when you have ADHD, you're feeling really disorganized in your mind, the task initiation is really challenging. But if you're a partner or your spouse, your friend is with you, all of a sudden you could get started on the paper or that household task. So what coaches do is they provide the body doubling, that kind of stuff with them and they say, what do you need to get done today? That's amazing. Now I'm all curious. I'm going to keep you for another hour. I promise I won't, but if I'm challenged by the treatment work itself, I have a task to accomplish today and that might be to do my ERP homework or do an exposure that I plan with my therapist. The body doubling could be used in that situation. I know this is very specific, but might that be a supportive way to do that? Continuously, yes. I think that's a good question. And again, that's just one of those things that says, if you are in fact coming from a neurodivergent place or at that point of view or that experience, look, there's an adaptation here that could, if you're struggling with the implementation of treatment, there are specific adaptations and support tools that can be used to help you through that. Yes, and I think that's going to show the advances that we've made in the field and I think that's going to be one of the things that we're going to show, the advances that we've made in the field and in treatment approaches, including acceptance of neurodivergent. I'm really like this trend towards greater acceptance, greater research, because it's a reality. Yeah. Can we talk, let's wrap it up in a minute or two, but I would like, if you could, if you feel comfortable, can we address, we've talked a lot about ADHD. What about other neurodivergent issues? Sure. The one that I see outside people, I still hear people use the term, I'm on the spectrum, I know that those terminology is changing, or they will use Asperger's and those type of labels. Same approaches or those are just extra wrinkles, different ways that you have to maybe adapt or customize treatment, I'm guessing, in those situations too. Of course. Okay. One of the things that we say about the autism spectrum is that I think I don't want to make a generalization, but there's a lot of concrete thinking, a lot of maybe rigidity that I see sometimes with dark patterns. I think it's what CBT is for, is for helping people think more flexibly and less rigidly. Yeah. So it can be really useful in that situation too, I'm guessing. Yeah. So I mean, I think it could be a little harder for folks with ASD, but I still use the same approach. You know, if someone is really stuck on an interpretation or an idea, I would try maybe to have them reframe an assumption. Yeah. And it's a little complicated, but there's ways to present that in simple language. Yep. So I do think that CBT is really a great approach for neurodivergence because of the concreteness of the tools that are presented things like problem solving, challenging thoughts, facing fears, behavioral experiments and so forth. Yeah. So it's a little bit more concrete. You can grasp those things a little bit more easily. Yeah. That's not very esoteric. Yeah. Great. This has been so great. I cannot tell you how much I've enjoyed this conversation. Like we should have done this way sooner. I'm sorry for taking so long to have you on, but how can people, how can people put all of Terry's links and stuff in the show notes? So just stick it, stick with me when we're done with the interview. I'll wrap it up what you usually do, but what's the best way for people to find you? And you wrote a book. I know you wrote a book and I love the title. Yeah. For people to find me, it would be maybe at Instagram, if they like social media, that would be at Dr. Terry Backout, at Dr. Terry Backout. Yep. And they certainly have a website that is the same, that was Dr. TerryBackout.com. Yeah. That's the best way to meet me. And my book is hosted up here. It's called Goodbye, Anxiety, a guided journal for overcoming worry. And this book has many of the tools that I talked about today. Yeah. It is really bad for young adults and teenagers, but I find many adults enjoy it. Yep. Because it's short, it's not too long, it's easy to read, and I really break it down in accessible ways. There's a lot of humor in it as well. Yeah. Again, I will put all, if you go to the anxioustruth.com slash 276, because that's his episode 276, I will have all the links including to Terry's book. And if you follow along with me, you will love Dr. Terry here, because she speaks the same language. So you're going to get everything she says. Thank you so much for coming. I appreciate your time. I said thank you so much for coming. I appreciate you. You know, I appreciate you. It was my pleasure. Oh, and before we sign up, a public thank you to Terry here, because for those of you who have needled me incessantly about being in Vogue Magazine, as you can see by my horrible hat and my, like, I am the last person ever that should have been mentioned in Vogue Magazine. It was Terry that was responsible for that. She was the one that recommended me in the article. And thank you so much. How much fun that has turned out to be. Everybody's picking on me. It's the fun. It's the thing ever. This is why I did that. This is the exact reason. It's so rewarding. Yeah, it was great. So I appreciate that show of support. And again, you guys should go follow along with Dr. Bacow. I will put all of her links there. Thanks a bunch. Thank you. All right, we're back. I cannot tell you how much I actually enjoyed talking to Dr. Bacow. She is such a welcoming to me, a welcoming presence for somebody who feels like they're struggling with multiple issues. And I know many of you in this community feel like, yeah, I see what you're saying, Drew, and I follow all the accounts, but, you know, I have ADHD. So I don't know if this is going to work for me. I love that she presented a very optimistic, very welcoming, very friendly, very accessible approach to these things. It doesn't mean you won't get better. It just means that maybe the way you get better would be a little bit different and maybe more customized for you, which is a good thing. We actually want that. One thing that Terri talked about when we were off the air that she didn't get to say in the actual interview itself is she really likes to take a strengths-based approach to treatment, which is something that, as a therapist in training, we are taught all the time, right? So everybody has some strength that they bring into this process. You included. So if you're feeling a little bit of despair or confusion, because maybe you have multiple diagnoses and you're not sure how that's going to work, always remember that there are strengths there and Terri felt so strongly that she didn't say it in the interview. She's like, oh, maybe we can throw that in afterwards. I'm here to represent for my friend Terri that she and most therapists will try to work on your strengths because you do have them even when you're feeling maybe confused or discouraged or a little bit lost or don't know where to go next. So that's it. If you guys want to get to Terri, Dr. Bacow, you can just go to the anxioustruth.com slash 277 and I will have all of her links to Instagram, her website and her book, which is called Goodbye Anxiety. Again, another very accessible bit of work. She's just very friendly and easy to deal with. So you could check out all the links there. And I think that's about it. That is episode 277 of the anxious truth in the book. You know, it's over because the music, new music, but music nonetheless. And what can I tell you as we end the episode? I'm just going to ask you the same favors that I always do. If you're listening to this podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or some platform that lets you rate or review, leave a five-star rating or take a second and write a nice review if you really dig the podcast because it helps more people find it and then more people get help. If you're watching on YouTube, like the video, subscribe to the channel, hit the notification bell so that you know when I upload new content. Leave a comment, ask a question. I will interact with all of you guys and it really helps the channel. So thank you so much. That is it. I will be back in another, not next week, but the week after because the anxious truth is every other week now. I do not know what I'm going to be talking about. I really think I do. I think I'm going to do a Claire Weeks episode because I do have a lot to say about Dr. Weeks. And yeah, I'll be back for that. So pop back in in two weeks. I'll have more for you. Hopefully this has been helpful. Remember, no matter how small the step is that you might take today toward recovery, accounts, take it, be proud of it and build on it. See you next time.