 Good morning everybody. It's good to see you and have you with us this morning. This is the meeting of the Senate Ag Committee and we haven't gotten any more in January. We'll be back next month. That's the 30th of January, so it's great. I got folks in from the SNAP program and I got you folks listed on the schedule, but sometimes things kind of get out of order. So is there a particular way that you'd like to have witnesses come up? Well, I am standing in for John sales today, so that I'll go first. And then I believe we have a person joining on Zoom. So whenever Corey is ready, I think we'll let Corey go second. And then we'll have Joanna from NOFA and Sherry from the Broward World Interpreter. Does that sound like a good order, Chair Starr? Sounds great to me. Okay. So good morning and very welcome. And it's where you've testified before. And sometimes we're good listeners and sometimes we might even say, I got a question on that. So, yeah, we run that kind of like a little conversation. And if you have questions of us, certainly ask. Yeah, so welcome. Thank you. And here is Taylor, I live in Linden, Vermont, and I work for the Vermont to think. And I am going to try and take as little of your time today as possible so that our friends who have joined us for Snap Awareness Day can give you their testimony and help you understand all of the different ways that Snap touches our communities. We were here last year to speak to you, but I will give you the reminder of what Snap is because it's a complicated federal program that we're really fortunate to be able to take advantage of here in Vermont. Snap stands for Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, and it's actually called Three Squares Vermont here in Vermont, the government. But every state chooses its own adventure and name it itself. Here in Vermont, it's administered by the Department for Children and Families Economic Services Division. We work closely with them. The Food Bank has its own Snap application assistance and outreach program, and so some of my colleagues work directly with individuals in communities across the state to work through the complicated Snap application process. Vermont is actually one of the better states to have Snap benefits in. The federal limit on Snap benefits is 130% of the federal poverty level. Vermont allows for 185% gross income, and then there are a number of deductions, but if people net down to 130%, they're eligible for the program. So it's a process. What is that? It's about $55,000 per year for a family of four. Or about $4,625 per month. And it is judged out of per month basis. And if people's income goes above that in a month, they are no longer eligible for those benefits and need to be applied. For that month or for the whole year? For the month. Yeah, so people drop on and off. That's how they're at that income limit. Yeah. Yeah, which is part of the complicated factor. Yeah, I think, you know, I could see if they were over a couple of weeks. Then they have to re-apply. Yeah, they have to re-apply. So there must be paperwork involved. It is a complicated application process. It is many, many, many pages with lots of detailed information about household income and expenses. Very little basis, we'll call it. For people who, you know, to just receive food, essentially. Snap benefits can only be used on food items. They are not eligible for household products, hygiene products. And at this time, you cannot use them to buy hot, prepared food. So the rotisserie chicken in the grocery store that's pre-cooked, that's, you know, seven bucks. Easy dinner for everyone. You cannot use snap assets to buy that because it is considered hot food. And there's a little line in the federal statute that says this may not be used for hot, prepared meals. We are working with our federal litigation to try and have that removed part of the farm bill reauthorization process. Oh, do you have the day they were for $459 at the store? We'll all be coming to your grocery store. No, it's good. In Vermont, Three Squares serves about 68,000 people in about 40,000 households. So it is a really broadly used program and a lot of people access the benefit. A household who's at that upper threshold of about, you know, under 85% of the federal library level will receive the minimum benefit. A household of one that's $23 a month, which is not many of those chickens or anything else, but it is something. And so part of what we're bringing to you today are requests related to both SNAP benefit and the programs that are filling those gaps for people. And there are a few. The agencies are requesting $5 million in base funding through the appropriations process to help fill those gaps for people who receive SNAP and also those who are not eligible for this program to receive food at their local food shelves and food pantries. The area agencies by aging are requesting $2 million in base funding for the meals on meals program, which provides prepared meals that can't be used to purchase prepared meals. And there are also older adults rely on that program for home delivery prepared meals. So that is a complimentary program where people could use their SNAP benefits. So they can't use them now for home delivery meals? There is no home delivery meal option for SNAP, but hold on to your hat. I've got a little more information. S15 bill was just introduced in Senate Health and Welfare by Senator Ruth Hardy. And that seeks to establish a restaurant meals program for Three Squares Vermont here. And it would direct the state agency, the Department for Children and Families Economic Services Division to introduce a transition plan to increase the SNAP benefit and to require a position that would create this restaurant meals program to the state. It's a federal option that Vermont has not taken advantage of yet. So we do have the opportunity to create the option program in Vermont, but it requires some cohabidity and infrastructure in DCF to do that work. And that would allow people to purchase prepared meals from participating restaurants and it would establish the rules and access to that. So we don't know then how it would work because they have developed the rules. No, and it's just in bill form in S15. So hopefully we would develop the rules that we were given that option. We as a state, yes, the state and we would have to decide is there a position that's part of ESD or there are other agencies that are involved in that because it involves restaurants, so would ACCD be involved. There are some details that need to be worked out as part of that. And Senator Hardy is the best one to talk to without those options in the program. And the amount of what would the feds pay on something if we, if we were allowed and we got the option. Is there a maximum dollar spent? It would allow people to use their SNAP benefits that they currently receive in a different way. There's no federal, there's no additional federal funding for that, but it gives people the flexibility that they need to purchase a restaurant or prepared meal. If they are unable to, you know, for themselves and there's lots of reasons why people need that prepared option. And actually Sherry has been doing samples of that for her farm or market, allowing people to purchase prepared food there. And then the fourth request, which also relates to farms and farms markets is that NOPA is requesting $478,500 in paid spending to support a crop cash and farm share program. And that is a way for people to utilize their SNAP benefits and have those benefits be matched by crop cash so that they can purchase more from local farms and local vendors at their own farmers markets. And one of the challenges that we run up against, if you're thinking about those folks who received $23 is that that's not going to go very far at a local farmers market, but the farmers at those markets need to be paid and receive money for the food they're growing. This is a program that helped to bridge back out to allow low income rematchers to have the same access to locally grown nutritious Vermont food. And those are sort of the main requests in front of you. And I'm going to, I'm going to basically step out of the way and let my friend who joined me today explain a little bit. Before you do. What's the current funding based funding for both the food bank and the wheels on wheels. And the food bank receives no money in base funding. We have received one time appropriation. So you want $5 million there and what about meals for meals on wheels received $1 million in base funding last year, and that they're asking for two total. Okay, thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah, any other questions from committee members. Thank you all for your time and I'm going to stay here and help answer questions. Yeah, but I will allow folks to go next. If this is Corey signage. Yes, he is okay great so Corey will join us. Good morning, can you hear us. Hello, I can hear you can you hear me. Yeah. Perfect. Okay, Senator star should I go ahead. Shall I go ahead with my testimony. Yes, welcome and yeah, our time is your time. Thank you. Okay, well thank you all for hearing my perspective today. My name is Corey froning my pronouns are she her. I live in Richmond, Vermont, and I'm a farmer, a social worker and a University of Vermont graduate student. I'm working to open an on farm therapy practice where people can incorporate movement on the land, such as walking or gardening as a part of their therapy. While I'm a student, putting my time and money towards developing this necessary community health resource three squares is supporting me to nourish myself until I graduate and I'm able to secure an income again. When I moved to Vermont and 2017, I worked in various social work positions including at spectrum center point school and steps to end domestic violence, while farming on the weekends. During this time I was working 50 hours per week for less than a living wage, and was just able to cover my expenses. Pace and financial stress affected me mentally and physically. I experienced daily chest pain and heart palpitations. When COVID hit I transitioned from full time social worker to full time farmer at bread and butter farm. With the fairly standard farm salary of $20,000 per year. I saw this shift as an investment in my mental and physical health. At bread and butter I had access to the most nutrient dense food. Dark leafy greens, grass fed meat, fresh herbs. But I still struggled to pay my bills, including my grocery bill. While farmers have access to beautiful local food, they still need to purchase most of their staples. Staples in my kitchen that I do not produce include rice, oil, peanut butter, red, dairy, nuts, chickpeas, lentils, coffee, etc. While I am fortunate to have local greens and meat in my own backyard, the monetary value of that food does not make up for the low wages that I and many farmers face. I still struggled to afford grocery staples. Three squares and Vermont food access programs such as crop cash, farm share and Meals on Wheels. Not only support farmers by giving recipients economic power to access their local food, but also supports farmers with low incomes to feed themselves and keep doing their crucial work. In 2021 I started the farm upstream LLC with four business partners. For three seasons we leased land and grew vegetables. Our goal was to get established, create sustainable systems, form relationships and break even while we searched for affordable land. The farmland outlook was bleak, with few farms for sale in our area and most selling for a million dollars or more. So it wasn't on the market we had our eyes on an old dairy farm in Jericho with 20 acres of agricultural soil and a stream. It was perfect for what we imagined a community fruit and vegetable farm with an on farm therapy practice. In 2023 last year, after years of financial planning, collaboration and fundraising, the farm upstream bought and conserved that farm in Jericho with the support of the Vermont Land Trust and the Jericho Underhill Land Trust. In the fall of 2023, this past fall, I also began the University of Michigan Master of Social Work Program in pursuit of becoming a licensed independent clinical social worker with the ability to open my own on farm therapy practice. This has been an enormous financial undertaking. In order to invest in my future, I'm in a full time graduate program that requires two years of unpaid internship on top of the course load. The required unpaid two year internship is ubiquitous across us masters of social work programs, and it is what kept me from pursuing this master of social work for so long. This requirement means that I only have time to work a part time job one day per week, which earns me only $500 each month. With a mortgage to pay $45,000 owed into tuition, a loss of income, it is impossible to cover my expenses, including groceries. I have been reliant on my business partners for support during this time, which is a part of our resilient collaborative model, but I cannot rely on them for everything or for too long. I applied for three squares when I started school in September, before I knew what this new financial stress would feel like. I am so grateful I applied and for the support that three squares offers me to take one financial worry off my plate and put food on my table while I invest in my education, my future, and my community. Three squares offers physical and mental relief when I go to the grocery store, and I know that I can feed myself while I am in school. I know that many of my classmates, fellow farmers and clients alike could benefit from this relief of not being physically stressed about feeding themselves, especially when both farmers and social workers are trying to help nourish others. Three squares is a crucial program. It supports people like me to feed ourselves and make ends meet in times of transition. My request is for you to support the food banks campaign give snap a boost, which will expand eligibility for students. Current college and graduate student eligibility guidelines are prohibitive. Many students, even when they are unable to feed themselves are not eligible. I am lucky to have fallen within eligibility guidelines, but I want you to know that many of my peers who are also struggling to make ends meet are not eligible. We all deserve to nourish ourselves and to be able to go to the grocery store without crippling stress and anxiety. The give snap a boost campaign would ensure that more Vermont students are well fed and can better focus their attention on their education and their future. Thank you for listening and for your consideration. I recognize I shared a lot of complex information and I'm happy to answer any questions you might have. Thank you course. Questions from committee. Could you elaborate a little on, you said you had some friends that were not qualified. Is there a particular issue that in the regulations or is it they earn too much or too little or why, why don't they qualify. I'm sure Carrie might be able to answer this question better, but the answer that I can give is that from my perspective, the regulations around qualifications for three squares for students are quite dated. My understanding is that they make the assumption that if you have enough money to go to college that you have enough money to pay your bills, including your grocery bill. But we all know that's not the case right I am a in state University of Vermont student and I'm going to have $45,000 of debt. And specifically for college students and graduate students, there is a 20, I believe it's 20 hours per week work requirement in order to qualify for three squares. And that work requirement, the requirements around that are really strict as well so any work that is related to the university or is an internship or a work study does not count towards those 20 hours a week work requirement. So, yeah, I mean most most students that I know cannot afford to work 20 hours a week as a full time student on top of work study and internship. It's just not doable. Not hours in a week. Right. So it is a federal rule that students must work 20 hours a week, but the state of Vermont has chosen to interpret that rule that it applies to all students. There are other states who have interpreted that rule so that it does not apply to students who are doing qualified job training, or work training. So part of S1, S215 has an element to it that would encourage the state administration to take a looser interpretation of that not really a looser interpretation of that rule like a reinterpretation of that rule that would give more students access to snap benefits. And that is something that the state administration can do on their own without any legislative requirements or any federal waiver. I would think, you know, if your work study requires you to do 20 hours of work or whatever it is, if you could bump that to 20, that would be part of all that. Chair Starr, you are coming up against some of the illogical nature of the rules around this program. And some of the rules and functions of SNAP are not, don't necessarily make logical sense. I do have some information about the Give Three Squares Abuse Campaign in the folder, and that has some more details that might be helpful to you. And a hunger free can really answer all of the detailed details, and I'm happy to connect you with Teddy, and you can have that conversation with he and his team. I'm like the 15,000 foot field. Yeah. And there are questions from members. And you might wonder if maybe fly on asking that these questions is because eventually that issue is going to come up in our app and own committee. And, you know, we could make recommendations to the, the money committee, which a couple of us sit on. Yeah, might, might all work. This is, you know, this is a crazy place. Well, thank you, Corey, and good luck to you. Thank you. Thank you for listening. Thanks for your testimony. And Joanna. Morning. Morning. Thank you. Thank you, Chair Starr for having us here today. My name is Joanna Doran. I live in when you see and I'm the local food access coordinator with the Northeast Organic Fund Association for month, also known as know for Vermont. And today I'm here to talk about how snap is important in making sure that dollars are spent locally and like connecting low income for monitors with partners. And specifically our crop cash program and farm share program that we run at NOPA help connect snap recipients with local parties. I'm going to try to leave enough time for Sherry to talk about how crop cash operates specifically at her farmers market, but I'll give a brief overview of the program. And our main ask is for the legislator with legislature to support an open amounts request for $478,500 in base funding for the crop cash and farm share programs. At NOPA I coordinate these programs, which will provide financial assistance for low income for monitors to purchase local food directly from farmers. These statewide programs are truly a win-win because with every dollar that we provide to a remonter who might not be able to purchase local food otherwise that dollar goes directly into a local partners pocket. So in that way, these programs support food security and provide a reliable fair price for farmers products. The crop cash program doubles three squares Vermont or snap benefits when they're used at farmers markets so that snap recipients can get even more at the farmers market. Through a one-time legislative appropriation in 2023 we were able to expand the crop cash program which is typically only able to be used to purchase produce. We expanded that program to be able to purchase any snap eligible food. So folks could spend their three squares Vermont dollars at farmers markets and get extra components to spend on things like dairy, proteins, eggs, you know, things that make full diet. Is that, is that how the double work shall get you double from your snap? Yeah, so someone can go to a farmers market spend a dollar of snap and then they would get an additional dollar of crop cash to spend on produce. And this past year we were able to give them another dollar to spend on any other snap eligible food at the market. So spend a dollar and you'd get two? Exactly. Especially for the guy that the personnel gets 20 odd dollars. You're exactly right. So it's basically tripling the amount of dollars and they receive from the snap program. And people have the same reaction that you did. They love this program. Once folks realized that they could actually, you know, purchase food at farmers markets. It made it worth it for them to spend their stock dollars locally rather than going to Walmart or a large, you know, supermarket gift. So this program was so popular for both snap recipients and for farmers who were receiving that money. That we used up all of our funding in just five months and we had planned for that program to last all year. So of course that was an incredibly hard thing to do to pause the program after just five months. But we were able to basically triple the amount of dollars that was circulating across farmers markets throughout the state through the crop cash and the additional crop cash plus program. It also encouraged more snap recipients to use their dollars at farmers markets. So we also heard from vendors at farmers markets that these programs were really incredible for them, particularly after the flooding in July. These were really important for maintaining a viable income. Some vendors even said that crop cash, the new crop cash plus pilot program, the one that allowed folks to use their coupons on meat dairy eggs. That helps some vendors that sell those products and an additional up to 20% of their income at farmers markets. So the issue here is that crop cash is the way that it usually works by just funding produce is federally funded, and it's restricted and what, you know, those products can do this for. And the one time appropriation that we got to pilot the crop cash plus program was one time. So we have seen how effective these programs are for increasing food security and for farm viability. And so we need state funds to allow us to continue the crop cash plus program. And to, to help us keep crop cash at the level that it's at. So because it's federally funded the grant that we receive funds through requires a local match. So for every dollar the federal government gives us, we need to provide dollars well. Thank you. And so you use like our appropriation for that. That's a really good question. We could use that appropriation. And so we did not expand the program to be able to purchase that be purchasing other than produce so if we just kept the program the same and said, just not recipients you can't use these dollars to buy food other than vegetables and fruits. That would have been a different situation but we felt really strongly that it's important to expand the program to be able to fulfill whole diet and began to support the agricultural vendors that provide those products. Yeah, so we are, you know, looking to the length of need to provide the match funding, and that of course limits the amount of the federal dollars that we can ask for because we can only raises, or we can only ask for as much as can you separate the expanded part of the program from the regular program so you could use all the donated money to match the new start and use state money to match. In a way, yeah, if we do receive state funding again we can use it to match. But it's currently not in the governor's budget. And so we need for it to be included in the Senate and House budget measures to be able to use that as match and to continue the Propcache Less Program like you were saying. I would say that, you know, I'd sit here all day and trade a dollar for three. Yeah, that's a pretty good, pretty good deal. Yes, and two out of those $3 is is typically federal so the snap dollars are coming from the federal government, and then the federal prop cash dollars that we're trying to draw down more of, which would be helped out by state dollars doing that. So, I mean we've had a breadth of three so few words, but we just are very committed to these programs crop cash and farm share and you know that the dollars that are invested into these programs have a dual impact. They can support food security for the wonders, and they support farm viability by making sure that farmers are paid for those products. Thank you so much for your time and any questions that you have. No extra questions. Well, thank you very much. Thank you. So, sharing. I'm going to go back to Senator star and committee for hearing my testimony today. My name is sharing more and I live in Athens and one county. I'm also a volunteer meals on wheels driver in grafting in Athens. And that role I've seen the types of extreme need of poverty that some of my neighbors listen and I know that what I see there is only the tip of the iceberg. And I see with the farmers market and my work with the PGM a board that I'm here to address you today for snap awareness day. I urge you to support, especially the requests that Joanna was just speaking about in terms of an office request for that base funding for crop cash plus and the farm share program, as well as the other requests that are being put forward to you today by the three bank. And having heard Corey's testimony s to 15 sounds like it really needs to be made more logical and sensible. So we're an indoor farmers market that began in 2006. We operate legally from November through March. And since the 2019 2020 season, which as you recall was the just before hope it really hit. We've seen an increase in 150% of snap transactions at our function. Many new customers, but many long term customers who are on food assistance, many families with young children, many are seniors and many have health challenges. They greatly value their access to more nutritious local food and the relationships that they have forged with our local producers at the farmers market. Over these four years, the snap dollars at our market have increased by 119%. Meaning that federal funds circle circulating our community longer. And when combined with the snap and sent and that was just a snap dollars that would be increased by 119%. And to combine that with the snap incentives like Joanne was just talking about turning 10 into 30. We've seen a total dollar increase of 408%. It's translated into $49,606 of buying power over just 20 Saturdays last season, putting more local food on the tables with local families and more income for the farmers and producers in our market. And treating to the health of the community and the vitality of our farms and small food businesses. Well, we celebrate the growth of food access at our market. We've also recognized that it's a potential threat should suddenly disappear. And Joanne and I agonized over that reality come this past November when we were informed and then had to inform our snap community that as of December 1, that one for three for one was no longer going to be available. That's because you ran out of money. That's because the crop cash program that Joanne I was just talking about and prop cash plus handed our market, however, has its own equivalent of the crop cash plus that we had begun a number of years ago, which actually served as a model for prop cash plus. So at our market at that point rather than one becoming three, we were still able to give our customers wants to become two. And then we actually went out and raised more money to try and replace the crop cash so we are currently still offering one becomes three at our market. Thanks to, again, philanthropy and support food bank and Vermont Community Foundation and others. So what I'd like to share with you now is some of the responses that we got when we asked our snap community for their feedback with this. And so these are quotes that we received from customers that week after the news came down. And one customer wrote not long ago, my EBT benefits dropped and I needed to re budget. I was counting on farmers market coupons which have varied also. And now I hardly know how to manage. Another one said, please, please, please reinstate prop cash. Inflation is causing me to run out of EBT early and the coupons it helps so much. It can take a lot of anxiety away knowing that I can get healthy food, healthy local food. Another one as a mentally and physically disabled individual prop cash falls only behind SSI SSDI and EBT in supporting my wellness. It makes it financially viable as well as motivating me to go to the farmers market which I otherwise could not afford. Prop cash provides me with physical nourishment and the intangible benefits of allocating these funds to my market community. I'm validated by this participation, even in my hardest darkest times, it affords me the access to life supporting goodness. Please support this group. The crop cash boosts my family's EBT and makes money and that money makes an enormous difference. That means I can afford to buy local and organic on my kids and support local farmers, which is crucial. With the crop cash, I'm much less likely to run out of grocery money each month and it is an incentive that inspires many low income families to spend the time and the gas to go to the market when they otherwise would not. It has a huge impact on our community, families and farms alike. Please, please, please don't cut crop cash. And so I would urge you to support the requests we put forth today. And I really want to underscore that the matching dollars that go through the programs that NOFA is speaking about are, I've seen on this triple when they make, they put more healthy food on local tables. They support the local farmers and producers and they stay in the local community and the local economy. Adequate nutrition, nutritious food is critical to healthy bodies, healthy families and healthy communities. And the more that that can be local, the more we all men. So I thank you for your time today and I'd be happy to answer any questions that I can. Thank you, Mr. Chair. So I'm just curious, this is a winter farmers market. So it sounds like it's set up a little differently. I'm from Rotland County. And I, although vendors might switch around, whether it's outside or inside, the structure is the same in Rotland year round. Is there a summer market in Rotland? There is. And our market is a separate entity in Rotelboro and we have a great relationship with the summer market. But when we, I'm involved with a nonprofit grassroots sustainability group. And when we started talking in 2005 about the idea of an indoor market, same year that Rotland, I think, well, they began in 2006, I believe, as did we. When we began talking about that, that year that the summer market in Rotelboro was very involved with purchasing land and some other things that they just didn't have capacity. So they said to our nonprofit group, go ahead. I see. That's why we were able to also then create the program because we could take the donations and grants for the, what we call our booster bread program and we found a lot of support from the Vermont food bank to keep that going since that 2020 2021 season. We really needed to struggle to survive the market as well as to feed our community. So is there overlap like yours ends and theirs begins the next weekend or is there's, yeah, there's ends at the end of October, ours begins the first week of November. Okay. Ours ends the last week of March. They all hit them on the off in April and then they start up again outside in time. Thank you. You're very welcome. So I heard earlier that hot food wasn't allowed to be purchased to some of these better chocolate hot food. You know, it's off limits. Or is it from a farmer so it counts as property. It kind of. Right. And it's a great question. Thank you for asking with the snap dollars and the front cash profound dollars. It is off limits. The money that we raised through the booster bread program again, the support of the food bank and others. We, and it was actually the food bank that directed us in this, in this path. We have allowed hot food to be purchased in our market with that and I'll tell you the appreciation from so many people is amazing. We've also, as you know, we've had a lot of people that were living in hotels through a period of time, and they could come to the farmers market and get a good local meal, which was really so, so gratifying for them. It was really wonderful. Yeah. So thank you for asking. Yeah. Did you see a drop in your people at farmers markets because of the flooding or, or shortage of any kind of foods to be able to so snap people could buy it. And we haven't seen that so much in terms of crops available at our market. We, again, we didn't open until November. So the flooding wasn't so much of a factor for us. I'm sure that summer markets and I know from the producers at our market that there were crops that were affected. And I know one of my primary producers that said that his summer. produce was maybe half of what he's had before for farmers markets because of the impact of the flame. And he's in a high land where, you know, flooding wasn't a huge problem for him as it was for others. So, you know, yeah, it was the impact. But another part of your question in terms of impact of the, I thought you were going to ask me actually about the impact of the disappearance of the crop cash. And we did start to see that within the first week of December and then because we scrambled and were able to raise more money and then start to get the word out we're slowly seeing our snap customers getting more and coming back to get there. One becomes free. That's a good deal. It is. It is. And it's fun to people first and to tell that to a new customer. Yeah, sure. You can make that call one early. You can spend 10 and we'll give you 30. Yeah, it's a treat. I mean, it must make a huge difference. It does. It makes a huge difference for the individuals and it makes a huge difference for the farmers and producers. And they buy meat, locally grown meat. With the matching funds that we've raised and with the crop cash class that was offering this summer. Yes, they can buy meat, they can buy eggs, they can buy maple syrup, they can buy honey. They can buy bread. Just no hot meals. Right. And that's kind of, well, hot meals. I mean, roasted chicken. I mean, you can get quite a few meals out. Exactly. Whole chicken. I know. And then it goes to the logic that you were hearing about from Kerry. That's not a meal that's on the chicken. Yeah, it happens to be hot that you can take home and pretty easy to throw a couple of potatoes and exact to make it a meal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what's the logic behind it, but they just don't want people to go into McDonald's and using snap. I mean, what we're having, how did we get my understanding is that the antiquated logic. is this idea that federal dollars should be spent through this program so that people can get ingredients that they then cook at home. And I think, as we all know, that's not possible for everyone. There are people living in hotels and hotels who don't have a working kitchen who may be disabled and can't cook, but still need to eat food. So it's, yeah, it's a very antiquated logic. That's unfortunately so. I would tend to add, I think there's some stigma attached to that limitation that about worth and about being able to go out to eat out in a restaurant is maybe not something that someone who is needing food benefits should be able to access. Wow, I could understand that to a point. To a point, exactly. If somebody had roasted, roast chicken at the farmers market. I mean, that's a, or you know, they might cook beef for pork. Yeah, exactly. It seems like that would improve the diet of individuals and maybe make them healthier. I mean, you buy your veggies now, I noticed on TV out there, Jack. I only get my veggies at the farmer's market. Getting them out of a jar and I don't mean they're fresh in a jar. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And yeah, the next thing they're coming with is lab produced meats. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm going to need any farmers pretty soon. Yeah. Right. Right. And God only know. So, any other questions? Would you like to speak? I know we're over time and I won't. We still got a few minutes. Okay. My name is. By the way. So I work as the local food coordinator for the center for an actual economy bacon. And I also manage the harvest market. This was by past season was my second season. I don't know that it makes sense for me to read the full testimony that I brought, which is from one of our most regular customers comes every week. But you have to be printed and I'd be happy to include them in the folder. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to talk about the crop cash and crop cash plus program, which we saw double between the 2022 and 2023 season, just specific to our market. We were kind of in the heart of the Northeast kingdom, very much agricultural band considered sort of an underserved population and a lot of ways heavily impacted by the floods. So I'm not going to talk about the crop cash. So we're talking about a lot of times season markets because act in spiel where the community garden. Farmers happen. Or in a date of water. So a lot of what we've all been talking about resonates very much. I also. Yeah. Wanted to speak to the prepared food. And sort of question in that. agreement on it doesn't very much make sense. The two regular prepared food vendors that we have at our market, which is considered a sort of medium-sized, offer really healthy prepared foods. Generally like a curry, rice, kind of Nepalese type food and then more Mexican type food. So anyway, it's, yeah, kind of mind-blowing to me that someone could spend their snap dollars on a frozen pizza at, you know, the grocery store, but they can't come to the farmer's market and get the prepared meal that they can then share with the company's at the market. So I also want to express, I guess, my support for the meals and prepared meals in a restaurant. Yeah, and like I said, I want you to do this whole thing. You're a good layman. Yes, I'd be so happy to. And it's a friend of mine who wrote it, lovely woman who essentially does speaks to her experience of her and her husband or senior citizens, both disabled, they were eligible for three squares, then became aware of crop cash and have since basically her husband was a type two diabetic, morbidly obese, who is now the vegan, traveling the farmer's market off his medications, total life transformation in a couple of seasons. Yeah, and they come over with their, they're really lovely. So anyway, and please feel free to share our experience with others and wait in any way, which might help to keep, help keep this wonderful program going. You would be great to be available at farm stands for CSAs, et cetera, if it doesn't already. So yeah, I will send you around an email form to since I'll leave a couple copies, but then you guys have it easily available and available for any questions. Yeah, well, thank you for that question shown committee. Good. Very good. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks so much. Good to see you. Thanks for everything you're doing. We are. Thank you. So if, if Canadian got to five five minutes, we've got a crew coming in, we love them. Good morning and welcome to the committee. We'll introduce ourselves and so let's start. Yeah, Brian Callamore, Senator from Rotten County. Hi. Hi, Rainne Robertson, Mid-North, which also includes her nuts. Oh, great. Yeah, that's sort of an idea. Thank you. I'm happy. Anybody from County? See everybody. Rich Weston, Loyal District. And Bobby Starr from Orleans County, a representative of New Towns down in Caledonia County as well. So it's great to see all of you here and Denise, we've run into each other over the years. I have cute colors. Yeah. And I guess you're going to lead off this drawing on the, like, shame of fighting. Well, first, I just want to thank you for having us come in. One of our charges as the Citizens Advisory Committee is to present our action plan every year to the legislature. My name is Denise Smith and I have the distinct pleasure of being the current chair of the CAC on the future of Lake Champlain. And I'm really happy to be joined here by my colleagues who I'm going to have introduce themselves right now. I'll start over here with Bob. I'm Bob Fisher. I'm the water quality superintendent for South Burlington. I live in Berry. I'm Lori Fisher. I'm a CAC representative from Wilson. I'm also executive director of the Lake Champlain Committee. Yeah, Wayne Elliott. I'm a resident of South Burlington, consulting engineer with alternate Elliott and Gropa Newport. And I'm a media director of staff support for the committee. Gropa Newport on the farm. Yep. I guess I did. My dad's a fun one. We're leaving on the farm. Yeah. Yeah. Generations. Generations. All in favor of me. Yeah. Yeah, it was. The town board meets the Delavos over there for years. Well, thank you again for having us join you and for your battery. We are here to talk today about our action plan. We really want to focus on the ag section and probably the infrastructure sections. However, any questions about any of the other pieces of this, we would love to be able to weigh in on those as well. I think what I'd like to start with is, as we know, climate is changing. It's not only impacting our downtowns and our river corridors where there's built infrastructure. It's also really impacting our farmers. And I'm sure you've heard that as well. Yeah, many times on this winter's actually last summer, last fall, last season. Better. They can't get on the field at the same time. They can't plan. Eric Clifford is a member here. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Eric Clifford is one of our CAC members. Has that three years. Three years. More than me. At least 15. Yeah. I think one of the things that we just want to acknowledge is really how farmers are responding and how our agriculture community is really partnering with water quality right now. We've been really feels like there's been some mental model shifts that are happening kind of at the deep root of level where the farmers are acknowledging and wanting to participate in some of the programs. We also know that specifically like pay for improvement programs or favorite performance programs, it takes, you know, five to ten years for people to get on board and to attract meaningful participation from the farmers. So we just want to encourage, you know, any kind of legislative action to really support those programs going forward. We also want to really celebrate some of the Vermont agricultural water quality partnerships that are happening with the Conservation Districts, AAFM, DC, NRC, and UVM Extension. We've seen some really nice progress happening there. Asterbrenn, the friends of Rwanda Lake Champlain up in our region, Franklin County. And there was a lot of work done by the local NGOs and Conservation Districts to work with farmers on meeting their needs, but also starting to think about how to meet the water quality needs of the region and improving our communities. What we want to emphasize on your action plan today is really the that we want to support sustainable agriculture consistent regulatory enforcement. What I will say is we know that AG is in transition. And that transition is starting happening years ago and is continuing to happen today. In order to do that, we need to accelerate the diversification of value added agricultural products and support our producers. In Franklin County, the dairy industry is an economic director for our region. I think you all know that. And we really want to protect our farms, our farm economy and our economy. And to do that, we need to support farms through investments in the specialized equipment. And there's been a lot of success with specialized equipment. If I can speak to my region of the state and what's happened there, we need to offer full funding of programs offered to the agricultural community and enhanced infrastructure for local distribution of agricultural products. So those are really what we see as needs to be able to support our farmers as they're making a transition from the current state to a future state. Yeah, no tail. Yeah, working out pretty, pretty well. Soil compactions continues to be an issue. But how are we investing in and supporting our farmers and making that even the best they need to make to be able to support injection, manure injection systems. Now, does your St Holland's area do they their conservation districts on any of that equipment so that if a farmer is big enough to buy one of those machines is almost very expensive. You may have extension of where we live with the direction of Heather Darby has a lot of that equipment or has been received grants to purchase that equipment. And I think our conservation district supports that as well. But yeah, I think at different regions of the state, there's different partners that partner with people. Yeah, but now you're like a no tail. But then and of course, thank you, Mr. Chair. Is the full funding in the governor's recommended budget, you know, I'm going to look to my partners and I do not know that's still funding for what specifically? Well, in your piece here, it says full funding of programs offered to the agricultural community. So I didn't know whether that missed any there was a piece in the budget that reflected that a lot of that running, I think comes right through. And the great lesson where we're gonna have to change side, you know, yep, because a lot of the grant were set up from one time. Money, you know, federal money. So we spent a lot more attention to that because the train doesn't come to the money. You look like we're going to be facing that issue here. Yeah, we are. I thought some of these loans were dedicated to the formages that we set up for them before COVID before the federal. Yeah, we'll have them send in and yeah, we should have somebody. Yeah. The other thing that we are asking for is to revisit the 2017 memorandum of understanding between the agency of natural resources and ag and markets to update expectations and if there are responsibilities, improve communications and established accountability metrics. There has been more work done between AFM and DC and you've noticed some improvement in communication. I still feel like the people on the ground are a little confused, though, in terms of who's doing what and who they need to go to. But there has been improvement, I would say, under the Scott administration and the work that's been done currently between the two agencies, but it's just something we always want to pay attention to and make sure that we're tracking and confirming at one point, the CAC and others in the state really wanted to separate that relationship between DC and AFM and just everything to DC, including the regulation of the farms. And now we're really wanting to just make sure that the memorandum of understanding is still working well for the agency, basically for the farmers. So the farmers know what is expected of them, what they need to do and how they can help reduce the phosphorus loads to make shift. And I think collaboration in my mind is much better than separation. Oh, yeah, that DC basically wanted to steal all that authority in farmers. I mean, they're getting lying down here to come in and beat up on that because the ag agency, they, and if you go from the ag agency to the conservation districts, you know, they love the conservation districts and get a lot of good work done through them. And you say, well, why do you like those folks so well? Well, because they don't come in with a big stick and beat up on them. And they talk to the farmers language. So then you go to the ag department and that's way better than it used to be. You know, they come in and work with with us and help us correct anything that we're doing wrong. And DC's never worked. I am out of one farmer contact me and say, well, those are great people. They were here and they really helped me do this. And then they, they tell you, well, keep them away from me. It's all they want to do is find us. And, and, you know, they don't help you straighten out the issue. So, you know, I think all of that crew should work together and, and so like our position else. Our position is about that. I've been at the CAC for over 15 years. And I believe, you know, it generally doesn't involve a lot of aquatic basis. I mean, you know, we, you know, we're the three, we'll go back to New York and, and, and Vermont. And, but we have, you know, we're a group. So it's a consensus when we come at this, we all agree the same thing. And I'll certainly say that previously we were like, there was a majority was like, we need to get rid of the MOU and just give it to DEC. Our thinking has evolved totally where you can see here now just more collaboration is what we're pushing out or collaboration, not, not, not just about not getting rid of the MOU. And we're seeing, I don't go ahead. I do just want to clarify. I mean, we have emphasized revisiting the MOU. There are concerns with the way that has worked. The differences in terms of how ANR and ag operate and how they view certain definitions like a nonpoint source, which is really fundamental to ag enforcement. So I would say that's where we're aligned as a CAC. But, you know, we're coming out this from different perspectives, and it has been a long priority of the CAC to reinforce that coordination, make sure that, that, you know, ag requirements are being effectively enforced. But also, as you noted, Senator, that there needs to be adequate staffing for both programs. Yeah, I want to just add my two cents. I agree with the chair. 100% we in this committee, and this is my year here. So I've seen examples of when it would appear that the ANR group and the ag are almost at cross purposes, unfortunately. And the MOU, I think, was an attempt to sort of deal with that meshing challenge that sometimes doesn't happen enough. And I just again, I'm a big fan of the conservation district. So to me, they're at the top of the list in terms of, you know, a farmer will welcome them onto the farm and try to help. And I'd love to see us be able to throw some more money in that direction. Because again, I, as Senator Starr mentioned, they, they, they solve problems together. And so that, you know, and in state government shouldn't work any different than this committee or your group. If you, you know, if you work on an issue, and everybody can kind of come to the middle, you usually get a lot better results than, well, I'm going to stick with this and that's it. And by Dan, if you don't like it, tough luck, those, you know, doesn't work that way. Yeah. And you go to Washington, please. Yeah. Well, they're yearly for the client. We know what comes out of there. And I just want to add one thing, because I don't think we talked about it yet, but we do think we should have the farmers and the people, the large landowners in the state, especially ones who still have land and agricultural use can really help resolve some of the climate issues that are occurring in our state, whether it's for water attenuation, or forestry, or soil improvement, store water better. And so I think there's a lot of opportunity for this committee to look at like how do we, whether it's, you know, ecosystem services that we're reinforcing partners for or whatnot. But I think that's another thing that we, and climate is throughout our action plan. But we do know natural, natural solutions to, to the increased rainfalls. And I'm going to try not to talk a little bit more about their infrastructure, or no way to talk a little bit more about infrastructure, just because we do, it will be use of stats in terms of like water that just came down, and how that impacted our state. But I think there's a big opportunity for agriculture right now to, and they have come as a partner in water quality, and I think we find a change that can help. There's so much heat pressure. Yeah, there's so much pressure on that. Especially with real estate values to the road. I mean, you see, I'm a ski coach at Killington too. Well, that is freestyle coach you'll ever see. And you're buying today. I've used that forever. Yeah, that's at least I've been there 23 years that I have been the oldest. True. You're a great big group. Nonetheless, as I drive down, you see, there's this, you know, permanence most sedutates by population in the state, in the country 55% and you know, a lot of these people are moving there. And, you know, it's they're building big mansions on a hill, and they're more force fragmentation more. I'm in favor of compact villages with farmland. I mean, if you want to take it to the extreme building in core, I've said this before, different, you know, you build one building that holds a million people, he put us all in it with a closed loop membrane system, you know, I like the space shuttle, it takes every problem there is no why I don't live there now. But that's building in and then you can mitigate for PFOSCLA everything you just all just fixed right there on the spot. You have a few farms on the outside, you're good. That's building in the extreme. We don't seem to be going the opposite way. The farmland is just so valuable. I mean, look at Eric, you know, he's seventh generation, his daughter's got a really good job in Boston, she's not coming back. So he's, you know, it just they're gonna, there's to be more and more pressure and as the land value just goes through the rough, you know, there's more and more septic tanks and more, you know, ground pollution from them, you know, PFOSC, everything's coming right into the ground right there. And they don't treat for that. That's that's land application on a statewide scale. So it's just, it's I feel for the farmers, they're, you know, they're the pressure is just going to continue with the value of the land goes up and up, you know, good for them in the end maybe, but now it's, you know, it's like living in Lake Tahoe and I knew people, the guy next door to me, he stayed there for one more year and inclined his property taxes for 56 and he made 58. And he said, you know, because his wife had died and his daughter was the captain of the basketball team. So he stayed, he said, I'm getting driven out rich, you know, I have to move because I can't afford your there. I'm going to help millions of dollars, but I had, I built this house in Lake Tahoe and this is where I wanted to retire. Now I also, you know, lived in Buffalo and I saw the opposite. My buddy's dad bought a house for 32 and 72 and sold it for eight, so it could be worse. But nonetheless, the, the pressure on the farmers and everything and the increased stormwater from all the way that he was just, I don't know how you feel about early. Yeah, that's, it's rough and a lot of time about water quality and trying to do the right thing. Last year, we, we did a little pilot bill in regards to virtual fencing. And Yali talked about how it saved the farmer money. It went active well every day and moved his Spanish for a rotation of the grazing and it would be better for the ground. Well, we got a report earlier this year on, you know, how did that virtual fencing work out? Well, it worked out good. If we want to go over to the brook and fence that out, we, you know, put the line up around and, and so the animals never go in the brook. And also we have, you know, meadows all pond up and had ponds and they could put a virtual fence around that wetlands so that the cow or the big cows can't go in there and tread that all on because cows went on a hot day, love to stand in water and cool them down. It's like a dog fence or something. Yeah, it's like this. I'm not sure. Oh, it's all, all done. They have to call it a collar, just like a dog and you can put it up at home. Oh, wow. You put it on your phone and you sit right in the office and it also has little docks for each animal. Wow. So you can see where they are. So if one should happen to get through the birthday, they can see where it is and go and retrieve it. It's the problem they had. And I'm glad we did a pilot project is to really be able to sell it to the last whole season. They need stronger batteries, sure, because they ran out of batteries early on the fault. So, but, you know, you think about that like we want to keep milk cows, all cows that brought them to improve the water quality. I mean, that would, it would work pretty, pretty good. I love the whole nation with that. That's what you're talking about. And I think that's the type of thing that we're going to be able to see is more of that innovation and investment in the transition of ag. Because that's, that's where price of bad water isn't worth anything. It's not. I mean, you came give them away. It was just true. I could affirm the maintenance. Yeah, I don't know what we're pointing to. Yeah. Yeah, do you want to come sit here with me? All right. Have a hot seat, please. Well, just, just a walk. Very warm in here. It's where you keep the meeting short, right? So, a little bit about the natural developed infrastructure. You know, this doesn't obviously affect the ag side and affects our communities. Everything across the board, you know, what we had in the last six months just kind of reinforced, you know, the potential long term impacts on climate change, you know, and our needed commitment to flood mitigation resilience. One of our priority series in the plan was, you know, the state must continue to prioritize investments that support adaptive resilient compact cell out for long communities. In addition to that, it's not just developed infrastructure. We want to make sure we protect, maintain, expand the natural features because that's really where we can get the most benefit moving forward, you know, and forget the flood events. We want to get that place of water and give a place for that water to grow early. So, it's important that we don't lose. We need to maintain, you know, the headwaters, the river corridors, the floodplains, swathlands and those swathers because we need to get the water in place to go. We can't continue our past mistakes that we have when at last 30 or 40 years. Do you like it on Main Street and States? Yeah. I live very, yeah, you know. That's still a disaster. Oh, yeah. So, some facts of interest for the July 9th and 10th floods, we have about four and a half inches of rainfall over those couple of days that vary a little bit around the state. Typically, so I'm an engineer consultant, we use like 2.7 inches of rain, so that well exceeded that criteria. Had 200 billion gallons of water and entered the lake. This is the one that's kind of probably the more disappointing but just the environment and all the damage, you know, we made great strides in the lake and fosters the jobs of wastewater plants that they're doing, farmers have been doing about half of the monster slope entered the lake on those two days of what we typically would expect for an entire year or so. So, you test it one way up? Yes. Yep. And of course, sure, where to this, we had 30, 30 medicinal wastewater systems about 19 community water systems. You know, we had wastewater, first structure that was not operable for a period of time wastewater treatment plants that weren't functional, pipes broke and that kind of stuff. Fortunately, a lot of that's back to at least mostly normal operation. The lake level reached 90.3 and so 100 feet is the flood stage. So that's pretty rare to see that happen, you know, in the summer. Is it then that like before or years ago? Well, so interesting and awful, just jump ahead here, but you know, we thought we were out of the woods and we had this December 18th that occurred. The lake level went up two feet without that. So we got up to about 99.1 feet, just barely up to the 100 foot. The lake level hadn't reached that level the prior to spring. So it didn't get that high in A of last year and it didn't get that high in May of previous year. So just amazing amount of water comes in there. One of the things that we're kind of focused on as I was putting this together is obviously there was a lot of environmental impacts. One of the things that really hurt to stay in addition to the devastation of the infrastructure, barn, fields, you know, households, businesses, you know, the effects on the, what we call the recreational economy, you know, we spent a lot of time on, you know, access to these receiving waters, contemporary recreation, swimming, voting and everything like that. But, you know, we went through quite a period of time this summer where you could both safely, there was water quality wasn't except for that sweat. You know, that affects the world and it affects people coming up to the summer and, you know, in addition to all the, you know, businesses that were out in areas of the lake or so. I spent a lot of time at work working with the lines to overflow communities, worked with Robin. And I was going through some weather data, we have these reports that are through the end of January and I was just, these numbers just kind of blew me away. So this was in central Vermont. So we typically get 41 inches of rainfall in a given year. They got over 60 inches of rainfall. Yeah, exactly. Total for the entire year, yep. The difficulty with that is that over two thirds that occurred from early July through the end of the year. So it wasn't, you know, typically when you look at that data, it all kind of evens it out. Like it doesn't get too far from that 41 inches. You'll have some drier months, weather months, but for, you know, just to see that amount of rainfall the last six months it's just nothing. I've done this for 40 years. I've never seen any data like this. Dry and has a lot of chance to shift. We use a lot of, or ARPA funds used at all, federal funds to deal with some of these wastewater systems. They are, they are in their skill being used to handle that. Great. That's a great program. It's funny he's being put into Virginians, Brooklyn, Newport. I know it's such a huge expense. I just want to make sure that after a few years. The thing that also we need to be mindful of is, you know, I've worked with these a lot of years. We're not going to eliminate them. Share a look at the events we've had this past year. We don't have enough time and money to really ever eliminate those kinds of festivals. It's not great. None of us think that's a good thing to have been, but from a water quality standpoint, those overflows occur in rivers and everything else is a great expense. We're not, you know, any kind of context. We've got a lot of other age infrastructure, a lot of other things that we need to spend money on versus spending millions and millions to, you know, eliminate these overflows. It's beautiful to have. Yeah, I can see where Burlington's wastewater treatment facility down by the lake, all down hill to it. But you take like Montpelier, there's this, the railroad station. Well, all that water that came into the city, if that had stayed in the river down to Bolton Plants or down south of here where the big meadows are and that, if that went on to that land, instead of over on State Street and Main Street, to think of the amount of the junk you're going to keep out of that and it would filter out down on the big fields south of here. And we wouldn't have that problem in Montpelier, but for some reason nobody, nobody wants to touch a river. They want to let the water run where it may. Well, I'll tell you back on the farm that we didn't clean the ditches every 10 or 15 years. You had a lot of really wet farmland you really could grow good crops on it. So you get the drag line in, clean the ditches and you go back to growing good crops again. But we have to be careful with some of that because a lot of things we can't do in Vermont, we never get permitted into another farms in the country. Like I'm working on some of the wastewater plants for the flood resilience in Slate Johnson. So they feed us there. He's like, well, let's put a farm around there. Let's build a sheep outlaw. Well, you can't do that here because what you're going to do is you're going to move that water back up stream. So by creating that solution, improving that situation we're creating other problems, some streams. We need to be careful and thoughtful about how we're going to get a decent mitigation for some of the insurance. Yeah, it's a shame that I was the chief operator in Montpelier for many years with the wastewater plant here. So I'm quite familiar with the Montpelier system. When I left eight years ago, 23% of the pipes are pre-1923. But I run the South Burlington. We have two very advanced, because we fairly wealthier community compared to Burlington. We have two very advanced facilities where we microfiltration. We produce electricity off our digesters, et cetera. Nonetheless, we're putting out almost drinking water or our fosters. We put out 340 pounds for 24,000 people because we do coal chester as your phosphorus. That's like six houses of the septic tank. And I watched that extra 100,000 I spent getting this down to 0.04 from our limit at 0.2 or 150,000. It's gone in seconds as the river turns to chocolate. It's just, we're still going to treat to that up, but that's just, you know, in seconds. Everything I did is gone. Well, I don't want to hold you up. That's fine. About 10, 20 years ago, when Nuske was going to build a dome over the city, well, maybe I've still gone over all the front. Yeah, I'm okay. You go next to my one button. Yeah, I waited for this. Yeah. So I missed the days when he used to be able to go up to JP Thanksgiving weekend and have his 60% or 80% open. The reality is with warmer temperatures, and that's exactly what's happening is we're getting more rainfall precipitation. So the lake levels and everything are higher. We're not getting the silver ball with so pack on the skier. Kills me, I'm right in the middle of January, kind of see pure ground. So the point taken there is I'm really hoping that what's happened in the last six months is not too new and formal, but it probably is somewhere in between. So the days of going back to where we just got 40 years training, we got 12 or 15 events with half an inch, it's probably not far going to seem to be going forward. So we need to be mindful of that. You know, I spend the money wisely and make good decisions, especially infrastructure, community, green development, and the ag sites. Just a couple of things, I know these don't really affect the ag side, but one of the things that we encourage, I know some of these communities they're having a hard time getting paid birds, they're being like, the money's coming as well. They're in a tough spot for telling the governor, you know, sure that he's, you know, they're all going to be made whole because we're in birds, let's just take them a little more time. And the other thing that's happening there too is, they're getting close if they haven't already that 120 million, they're going to get to a few more reimbursements up to 90% from the 75 to 90%. And then obviously use those funds will be forward, you know, to address some of these medications like she's using some of these, okay. And we did a bill last week in the week before it passed. It passed last week that if a municipality regated, regated, you know, lots of taxes, but if a person goes in, lots of taxes are paid in, and the town agrees to it, they aren't going to have to pay that to the everybody. So that, that should help some and I think that was a pretty good example. It's also a catchable that a lot of these meetings just have become diverse, you know, when they're just back by over the last six months, that's going to work out, which is nice. Yeah. If we all paid our bills as soon as there's a fence paid their bills, we'd have a lot of bishops and people here, you know, they fall right into the house. Good. Any other questions? I don't think you wanted anything. Anything that you want to add? Right here. Hi, where are we with time? Because we didn't give you an overview of the product invasive species in recreation. I can do that very quickly if you're interested, but we also want to make sure we answer any questions you have. Do you have, do you have meetings that, you know, that's it? None of the one, none of the one. So it's really your, yeah. You have lunch with you. Yeah. We had a lot to do in the past. No, we're fine now. We've got, you know, if we get out of it, I'd go, we're fine. I will take much less time than that, but just hit some highlights in terms of aquatic invasive species as well as recreation, which are very much, you know, interwoven in terms of, you know, the potential effects that one has on the other and also certainly climate change that everyone else who's talked about here has a big impact on both of these. So our priority for aquatic invasive species is to really reinvest and invest more vigorously in prevention because we humans are the real conveyance for aquatic invasive species in terms of their, how they get from one place to another. In Lake Champlain, we have 51 aquatic invasives. They have tremendous implication for ecological change. So more than anything else that's affected the lake, you've seen tremendous change by aquatic invasive species because they're sort of their profile as a species is that they generally outcompete the natives because, you know, if they didn't grow up in this region, they tend to have a lot of fecundity. They will over-presidue their, you know, so they are going to buy the fact that they are often can exist in poor water conditions too or in a full diversity of habitats that often is one of the reasons that they have such a pronounced effect and then the fact that they are such aggressive reproducers and they often prey on our native species. So again, put much more pressure on and we are seeing at the time when they're increasing. So we have 51 in Lake Champlain, we're connected, Lake Champlain is connected to all sorts of water bodies we have more invasive species through the inland waterway system. So the Hudson River, which is, you know, we're connected to through the South Lake Champlain and the canal system has nearly twice as many invasives, the Great Lakes nearly four times as many. And all of the species whose origins we know about in Lake Champlain, more than half have come through the Southern canal system. Yeah, we were also having an issue with the St. Lawrence but members Lake Champlain to the North, okay. And so, you know, we're very concerned about that and prevention is key. Once you get an invasive, because of that profile I mentioned before about how aggressive they are, they're usually here to stay. So then you're constantly putting in money for investment in managing them. So that's the situation, for example, water chestnut and the aggressive plant that's been in Lake Champlain since I think around the 1940s. That we've been able for the most part to keep it at bay through ongoing managing and harvesting. There's both mechanical harvesting and hand pulling that happens. And as long as you keep up with the funding then that plant is staying put below the South Lake. But for several years over the course of many decades, there was time when that funding wasn't kept up. And so the program was compromised and that plant has moved north. So now we have species that we have water chestnut where we're seeing in the Mrs. Squire National Wildlife Refrige and other pockets where we're trying to really aggressive or manage them. But that's just one example. If you lay off the gas on this in terms of investment you're gonna lose something. And Senator Campion, do you have a question? Yeah, thanks. And I'm sorry to interrupt but can you say a little bit about that prevention when ships, I suspect they're real project are coming up. Is there any from the Hudson? Well, so from DC and New York DC haven't worked and we've been involved with how they operate the lives. There's, well, and that's one aspect of it. There's also both steward programs. So education is really key. So there's the Lake Shumford and Basin program and Katie is our staff person but she works for that institution. They run a both steward program in New York and Vermont where they're out those access areas prioritizing those high profile access areas to educate people about the prevention. Everybody knows in terms of who has a voter gets schooled on clean, drain, dry and, but it only takes one person. They can get in by intentional, intentional deposits of them. There's also, but also both transport is really, really important. So that's why we're talking about, our priorities are to have increased investment because we've lost staffing over the years and we do not have the staff that can really keep up with all the education that needs to happen. So we're recommending a new funding source involving both decal for both motorized, non motorized recreation, mandatory watercraft inspection. We do have some stations around the state. They're typically volunteer staff. So that's another issue is just the capacity to do that but there is funding for both from, I think there's a 50-50 split with Army Corps of Engineers funds to do a high profile inspection station near border area which would be really important. So that's another thing we want to push and then potentially considering a live bait ban such as they haven't put back. So you're avoiding all those factors or trying to mitigate them to get at that issue. And then back to the canal, through the, you probably know that Ron Gobi was discovered in 2021, very aggressive fish, a small fish that is one of the attributes of this fish is that it feeds both during the day and during the night. So therefore, instead of reproducing once a year or less frequently, it reproduces multiple times a year. So there's great concern about that moving into Lake Chat Plain and it is in the New York canal system. So there's a high degree of focus on that looking at flushing systems, they're now doing dual flushing. And now instead of if you're coming up through the lock systems, you were talking about Senator Campion, you have to schedule your lock and they are restricting that time. But we're very concerned and some of us, my organization was pitching that we should temporarily close the locks until we can control this. So we're also looking at barrier dams. There is a study and there was federal funding for putting in a barrier on the Southern canal system, but we're very far away from implementation on that. And I know at that point that Ron Gobi is not, yeah, there's more. Right, Ron Gobi isn't in Lake Chat Plain, but it is a great concern that it could be and it would be absolutely devastating to Lake Chat Plain fishery if it got here. So the lock washing that doesn't have to happen all the time? No, it happens more voluntarily. This is also why the basin program, the boat steward program is really important because at the access areas, they've trained stewards to talk to voters to do informal inspections too. They've run interference on some invasives as well. My organization runs an aquatic invasive water purlers program that we piloted last year on Lake Chat Plain. We had to expand it this year, but all that is privately funded. We were funded through a modest grant from the basin program. So, but at the same time, we have lost funding in our state agencies. And what we have is one staff person and then temporary staff. So you're not building that capacity, that institutional knowledge, but at the same time, pressure from the aquatic invasives is increasing and also recreational use is increasing and we want that to increase. And that's the other quick point. I want to make it there's time. Another pitch from our, the CAC and our action plan is really to expand equitable public access and recreation. And certainly we support the FORAC and the initiatives there and that funding source, but really want to see a focus on particularly in the South Lake from Lake Chat Plain where there are very limited access areas. There aren't swimming opportunities. And our stewards, our environmental stewards, they're directly between your experience and the outdoors and your opportunity there and your sense of stewardship. And, you know, we really need to foster that, but we want to see a greater investment. I just mentioned, I mean, my limited experience is between Maine and Lake George. They just see so much more. George. Yeah, yeah. You're not, I mean, in the lakes in Maine, you are not going to pull that boat out without people there who are getting paid checking it. Absolutely. And so I do feel like we're behind the Avalon. We totally agree. That's why we're seeing a need for mandatory inspection. You know, that's, it's, you know, it's a wonderful opportunity and privilege to use our waterways, but we have a responsibility in need to have our boats. Yeah. The water will be effective. I don't know, almost at a time. It's also a capacity issue. Yeah. If you go to the mouths bay, Saturday or Sunday, you got one person there, you got, you know, there's three wide footer boats. Yeah, yeah. People are not very patient. So. Yes. Not on the boat. The last part of our thing is the contaminants, PFOS. They're back on. Yeah, sure. Let's get out of here. I'll say it in a quick way. I'm sure. So I operate two large wastewater facilities and we produce CQ bile solids, I'd say. And I agree to James ours, the pollution network is here doing it to noon. So I'm going to go get beat up over there. That's fine. But there's also, you know, there's all sorts of, you know, PFOS is the big issue of the day, but it's everywhere and it's, you know, the QS and how they need to deal with it. You know, it's like, like I say, septic tanks has PFOS land application, you know, it's everywhere. The larger 55% of our monitors, the most in the country by population on septic tanks and that's not being treated there. Sol is an excellent come around chloride. People only realize that highly, there's probably going to be a TMDL, like new scheme or not, force for chloride continues to go up and up and up. I really was not that cognizant, even though I was a federal fishery biologist years ago, I talked to the stormwater people and they're like, yeah, we're already reaching levels where it's starting to affect the fish. And well, 75% of it's private. So even like it's all Burlington where we have computerized things or try to limit salt, you know, you tell a private person to do it, well, it's also liability to them. They don't use salts when it falls and breaks their leg. You know, so this is another mutation coming along in which was not that easy to solve. I mean, you could treatment on the stormwater. I mean, then how you're building like wastewater. Oh my God, that's expensive. I know it's wastewater is expensive. And, you know, like bio solids, your average male of one, you could spot one pound a day for about 186 pound of male. So I thought, there's more, I eat a lot. But you can figure that 365 pounds a year, it's gotta go somewhere. And, you know, there's incineration, there's none in Vermont, never has been very expensive. So we pretty well wake that up. You know, I could, we land apply now, but we're not even hardly going to agriculture. We're mostly going to, we're going with ECI, it's about a 5% mix. You don't even see the PFOS levels. And we went to the Swanton Airport, we're doing the Burlington Airport, we're doing I-89, because it's a fertilizer. Can't do that because it could have microplastics and PFOS in it, so fine. So now I'll landfill it. So driving five miles, I'm now gonna put credible amounts of greenhouse gas, dragging it up to Coventry where it's also gonna off gas and then the leachate's gonna come out. Well, does it? Yeah, but it don't go away, doesn't it? No, you put it in there and it's just gonna off gas in there and it's going to, you've gotta do something with it. And plus, if you stop land applying it with like the farms and whatnot, you know, it could work that fast. Yes, so that's more. I mean, if you don't use it in the first place. Well, it's mostly come, yeah. I mean, they were telling us last week it seemed in our clothing. Oh yeah. Well, PFOS is everywhere. It's everywhere. And real. And it's on top of Mount Everest, they call it. I mean, it's everywhere. But we're still here. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but you know, it is what it is. So what are you gonna do? I mean, this point many times. So you can't landfill, the leachate comes around, goes in there, you can't do that. So really there's only one last solution and because I'd be intestinal afforded to, to do what's right, internal composting. I haven't gone like in a week and I don't feel well. But I'm looking for other solutions. I'm more than open. You can't landfill. You can't land, apply it. That's all I got. It's left at 365 pounds. Got to go somewhere. So, you know, there's no easy solution. Certainly if you just put it all in the landfill, there's landfill capacity issues. There's, there's a huge increase in greenhouse gases plus all the importation of it. So there's no real easy solutions to anything. Well, in the junk, everything goes to a cabin tree. Yeah. Yeah. The leachate comes. A lot of it gets trucked back down to Montpelier and over to, over to Plattsburg. But some of that runs down into South Bay. Because it doesn't matter if you build a beautiful new swimming pool and spend hundreds of thousands and thousands of dollars, that baby's gonna leak someday. Yeah, that's it. So there's no easy solutions. And really what we need to do is help reduce the rainfall in this stage through that committee. That would really help us out a lot. Well, the goal may be just to do rain dances to get it to rain. I'll take whatever, like I'm a Killington coach and they've already stopped all over time. They've already, cause they lost Martin Reddler. They lost the thing. The Wally barn's closed on Tuesdays now. The local people that are just trying to get by are all dying. And even though there's more and more people there as crowded as can be, the rain and snow, last Saturday we got your froes and all the lists barely opened. And those people all standing around, Martin Luther was worse with frozen lifts and just, they spent a lot of money there for pretty treacherous things. At least I could pay the coach. My cousin owned the Wally barn for a year. Really? How long? I don't know how long you've been going there. I've been going there since he, well, I've lived out west for 12 years, but I've, you know, I've been there since the 80s. Yes. Jack, Jake Gator. Oh, God. Yeah. Yeah, that was my first year. Let's go get this. Well, I didn't get this craziness problem. Yeah. So once again, just a lot of, you know, more problems, contaminants, you know, obviously, and by all cells are a huge issue. And if the exclusion is ship it somewhere else, you know, ship it to Ohio, so I must, that's no solution. We're going to send it all to Bangladesh in the end, you know, for incredible amounts of money. Good idea. Sure, I think they're already including that country pretty well. So feel free to, feel free to. I have a lot of, you know, any time. Any time. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Go down the hall. Thank you, Wendy. Yeah. Any other questions? I'm sorry. Thank you so much for hoping us today. Thank you. We'll see you next year. Yeah, well, we'll all be fixed. Let's hope we don't get as much drain between now and next year when this day we got this patch here. Yeah. Yeah. You know, when you run a wastewater facility and you've got 34 pump stations, you, I look at my graph, so when it starts to rain, I have to see for a minute. It's all causing me trouble, you know. Oh, wonderful day. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Thanks, guys. Thank you. And thank you for the extra time. Yes, thank you. Yes, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.