 This is Frank Henschger from the Siegel Center in Midtown, Manhattan, I think it's our talk 148. It's again, a little bit cold grayish day here in New York City and some church bells are ringing close by. It says it's noon, it means Siegel talk time and thank you for joining again. We yesterday had the great Emily Mann with us. It was just stunning to hear about 30 years of our leadership at the MacArthur Theater in Princeton and Carol Martin and joined us. So that was a great update. It was by it says it's noon, it means Siegel talk time and thank you for joining us. I hear feedback. Is that for you all here? 30 years of our leadership at MacArthur Theater in Princeton and Carol Martin joined us. Sorry, that wasn't my thing. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So I'm sorry. And we had a Fergus Lenehan from the Edinburgh Festival giving us an update. What are they planning on Wednesday? It was quite a challenge for them. They open on August, but they don't know how they will open. Not if at all they created new outdoor structures and so he shared his vision, you know, how we all should be going forward. David Goddard who runs when the great Riverdale Riverside Studios in London. We had Carrie perlov with us and and today we stay true to our mission. The mission of the Seales Center always has been to bridge academia and professional theater and the performing arts, but also American theater and international global theater and today we have with us to Berliners and like all two Berliners. They are not from Berlin. They come from all around the world, but everybody who is in Berlin is a billionaire. We all hope there are never any foreigners. Once you live there, that's who you are. And we have Joanna Warsaw with us. And so, Joanna, thank you for joining us. And how are you and where are you? Well, thank you, Frank, for having us. So Abur is joining in a few minutes, jumping from another call. Well, not like in New York, this is a very nice day plus 25 in Berlin and very sunny after Friday afternoon. Good, good, good. I heard after cold days now the summer, you know, has come. Joanna and will who will join us shortly created something outstanding, something stunning and beautiful. It was called the balcony. Life art pandemic and proximity. She initiated that festival together, which will end and we're going to hear all about it. Let me tell you all a little bit about Joanna and, and she is someone who we admire whose work is important and she's the program director of the curator lab at the University of Arts in Stockholm, the construct university and an independent curator and editor. And she is investigating the social and the political in the arts and in the white cubes as she says inside and outside of it she created together with another person who we come with us today the black hole in Berlin, she's involved in many biennales whether it's in Kosovo, whether it's in Riga, in Venice, in Berlin and many, many works you can all work up so she's a very experienced European curator, and comes for her Polish Eastern European sensitivity upbringing also with her so she has a very interesting view on what art and politics, politics or the political is all about and, and of course she also writes and curates and puts things together in museums around the world also of ourself of course, and also she has been at the Segal Center and, and she was famous for for so one performance for a soccer player all by himself recreated a form a famous game can you tell us one second about that price. Yeah, beautiful performance of Massimo full on who who recreated many games actually always repeating choreography of a main player so actually last time I work with him was East Germany West Germany match a famous match from 72 and East Germany, despite like, you know the expectations and he was recreated you're going to find us. Yeah, and what do you do the stadium stadium is empty or the normal spectators no game and just the one player. He's alone on the whole stadium basically it's a childhood dream coming true, you know how to become a famous footballer that he didn't become and then he became as an artist is famous footballer running alone on the pitch and you sit in the stadium and you hear a comment comment either original comment depending on the match, either original comment a commentary from this match or as it was in East German West German case, either East German commentary or West German commentary about parallel reality. Incredible, incredible thing. And we have now with us so thank you for joining us I know you had to jump from another call and so thank you for taking your patience. Thank you. Not at all. Thank you for taking the time both of you are such such great workers hard workers in the world of the arts leader and performance and she's a little is a little do a musu glue is a mentor and a program leader and by the school in university and the arts in Berlin. Yes, so we are colleagues in a way and also a visiting professor for the Hochschule der Bildung künste had a car in Braunschweig the fine arts in Braunschweig. She was a curator for the famous star wish a house festival in crates. And in Sofia, she worked in festivals the Istanbul be another and she was part of the documentary the famous document also 13. And together with Joanna she initiated that thing the back corner the balconies live up pandemic and proximity on windows and balconies of the Berlin's Brentzlauer Berg neighborhood where she lives for both of them but also so many many artists and we're going to hear all about it she also writes like Joanna so constant freeze and many many other things. Thank you. Where are you are you in Venice in castle documentary. Well, I am. I'm in Lisbon at the moment. Oh, you are incredible in Lisbon. I mean, it's one of the very rare times that I got out of Prince Robert back so it kind of find our time of our conversation so yeah, it's not so common that I'm back but here I am today I'm in Lisbon. So, let's start right away. We live in the time still of Corona the pandemic in where we are confined to our homes where we have been confined homes for a very long time, he especially in New York very little happened. We artists very strongly felt not to put their lives at risk the life of spectators just for performance or show online engagements, of course where they are outside some great outside events at the parks or the Kaufman Center musicians played inside a store from fantastic installation also have speakers outside and all day long at three different times people come to see really significant important musicians who play for them life but behind a glass and many many many other things when he create walks and things, but what you guys created is something and so tell us a little bit about it what were the thoughts behind and how did it work maybe Joanna can you start. Of course, well, you know, I guess we all remember the beginning of the pandemic and the shock of the first lockdown. The whole project came also from from this kind of shock that business as usual is stopping and what does mean, and both of us met at the park, which is in our district Prince Lauer Berg is Berlin former is Berlin. And, you know, as it is, everyone was talking about it so we of course also were discussing the situation or what was where are we at and what is, and actually we also discuss the fact that all museums and theaters immediately wanted to continue a digital life in the digital sphere you know they a little bit pretended. Okay, now we are just switching to the digital. And we felt maybe that's not the best thing to do at the moment that maybe, despite the hard lockdown. Actually, maybe it's a moment to test how can art be also a form of resilience in the analog sense. So from this conversation you both met in the park with masks on. Yes, in the winter or what happened it was in the winter or when was that. It was the early days. And it was March. March last year was like it was like the March last year and I think it was like towards the last weeks, I think it was like the 26 or 26 when we started our single talks actually 26. And actually, you know, and also in my situation. I, because I'm also working for the art fair in Spain called our co. And then actually I was in Spain, just before the, the, you know, pandemic explosion happened in Madrid. And I was also very touched by that as an experience so basically, I was very lucky, you know that, because I also worked in one of the most collectively in the publicly crowded places and and nothing happened, but it was a really like a kind of it was true luck. So it was very also shaken, I have to say by that by the experience when I came to Berlin from my side in the, and indeed like these conversation. I think was inspiring for for both of us. I am like I'm a Mediterranean person is someone coming from Turkey so I also have a very different relationship with balconies and the way social lives like take place in balconies. So this is something really like kind of also very much part of my imagination, but of course it all shifted, you know, with all these meanings shifted with the pandemic and especially those days when we were conversing with you on that was very much we were very much struck by the images of people communicating with each other over their balconies giving concerts to each other over balconies or, you know, practicing actually their art like from their balconies. So there was this really beautiful moment of really sharing that was happening in the early times of the pandemic that really also inspired us to use that space of maybe make a proposal to our artist friends to use our balconies and to really share with ourselves a possibility of taking a ground and expressing how we feel about our situation and then we can communicate. Nonetheless, as we are your artists art producers thinkers, we can find ways like to communicate with each other in such a time when we felt limited and like cornered. And it's to imagine it for our New Yorker audience like an orchard street and they are you know buildings for five stories high. And they are most of them do help balconies they're not too far from each other you could perhaps even still shout right across the street. And here's someone so you were observing each other, like in Hitchcock's and you saw people making art. So, and this has happened very fast and John I don't know March was very beginning it was clear to both of you. This will take a long time to get back to what is supposed to be the normal and you felt the absence of your normal work and you said let's do that right away so it happened in March April right away you did that or We took action very clearly like just to just to close to bridge to you and I mean from the moment of this this park conversation to like when we wrote the text it was in 10 days and when we took the action it was basically in the next 10 days so everything took more or less like the time of like 18 to 20 days. So when did it happen in April. It happened. It happened Easter on the Easter weekend in April 12 and 13 of April last year but then also it happened this year again on the first of May. So tell us a little bit. What was the scope, how many people were involved maybe have some images to share what, how did it look like. First of all also why we did it to come back to a question. It also was a feeling of you know being a Berliner being in Berlin in the time of pandemic and realizing that actually what is special about Berlin and also about New York to a degree is that you have so many artists per square meters that they come from so many different backgrounds you know there is, it's somehow the locality of Berlin that we were all stuck there, and the, the global nature of, of people living here came together in this moment and the idea to send each other signals and, and also the idea that, you know of course the most important professions, and this what is called in Germany system relevant system relevant professions were not the artistic professions but our question was what could we do also as curators and so it came out of the need in a way to react to the situation. And then as Opel said we formulated this letter it was also like a test, we formulated a letter to our neighbors both to the artists we knew and also those we didn't know. And it was a little bit like a snowball effect, you know that people kind of felt, yeah they felt intrigued and they felt taken by this proposal so they reacted it was, you know, a letter I mean you printed something out and distributed together, we wrote a text together and we used emails of course. Yeah, some, some, some digital sphere was used in the preparation of this project. So it was very magical, this, this process that you know as Johanna is describing it was very magical for us it really was you know almost there are certain things on the world that you know when you put this idea on it really takes you in front of it and it pushes you to realize what we really felt also through this way with the beautiful reactions that we received from from our community to realize it and we started with a circle of 12 friends so to say and in the end we became around like 50 and in the community was growing up until the last day, you know because everybody wanted to join and it was also the possibility of course like to do it from home to use the domestic space also as a studio space sometimes and like to use complete DIY tendencies in order to make you know in order to send out a smoke signal to the neighborhood and to the world and to show that you know we exist we are here, we communicate and we take our space. And almost in that sense of auto to signal through the flames, you know, and that we are there that we exist and that we do care about each other and both like that is kind of a knock knock at the door how are you. There's some streets you say these are four streets is clear or everybody in that kind of the Prince Albert would be something like so how or Chelsea in New York it's like a larger neighborhood so how did it work do you say this is the streets where we live in and or was it distributed around the neighborhood. You know it started from Prince Albert because this is where we live. And then, yes, you'll see that in a way, the neighborhood became a blurred border. It's we are not you know there were some people on the edges, but it's a big neighborhood and the best it's like in Munster to visit it with the bike so it was not on two free streets but still it was a neighborhood project that also revived the idea of what it is to live next to each other and be able to do that knock knock, as you said. Yeah, and also I think German as I am German our life at home the private space you know is something very in a way hold almost sacred if you get invited to a family it means something you know it's not as open as it should be perhaps as an hour you know European neighbors and our friends. And as we heard you know that the use of public space and balconies is different so it's a greater perhaps recalibration of the city life and how about the audiences how did that work and did people know about it they discovered it while it happened was it a surprise kind of a guerrilla art or how did how did people join in. Well it also I mean it a little bit of all of what you mentioned but of course it also transformed you know towards the second edition. In the first edition, it was a, it was very slight gestures, sometimes big sometimes like gestures sometimes like the whole buildings were used, you know neighbors also were invited. And in sometimes. Sometimes it was just like a kind of a very small, you know, like a kind of an arrow or a sign like that was referring to a particular situation but in terms of our communication with the public we used social media because at that point also. We just distributed everything through through Facebook, basically, and then we made the link and then we also like created a very different map of our neighborhood, that is also very important, I think to to share here because it's a really exercise, a psychocardiographic exercise as well because we, because we wanted to protect the privacy of our artists participants, we actually put approximate very approximate points on the maps, but not their addresses so it wasn't like this kind of pinpointed that can be GP arrest kind of addresses that we gave to our public which is generally different than other public space projects so we really kind of differ over there. And it also like invited our audience to play the game to our public to play the game with us in terms of which balconies around could be those balconies. Because sometimes we're big but sometimes the gestures were subtle so. And then it was then in a whole different way of relating to neighborhood also to make us realize basically when we are going like head forward to a certain address we also lose actually the relation with the surrounding so this was also an invitation back to to looking around ourselves in a kind of a different in a kind of a different way, and we saw like really people sharing information on each other with themselves, like which address is where which artists, maybe it's like maybe doing so. What and like informing each other, or like trying to find altogether a certain balcony and making guesses. So these were very beautiful conversations for us. And for me to understand, it's not that you had to be a neighbor across the street, it happened also live you could go on the Facebook sites and see what the 12 or 20 at the end 50 artists were doing or was it. Did people walk around the streets in their mass to look to look up John maybe you tell us a little bit how was that. How did it happen. So we really were analog in the project. It was a project that was also like a new dimension of the public, you know, creating public sphere through art. However, of course there is a second first audience which is there on the streets, and that was a hard really maximum two people together could walk, but it was absolutely, you know, so to be to it was doable. Of course you are free to go for a walk. But obviously, as with many projects, there is secondary audience at third audience. So, later on you could and you can still see it on our website. And you can experience those projects and actually from this very local neighbor neighborhood initiative this project, you know, got covered by Reuters and another press agencies, and got a chance, a chance from sighting but also others, others and it got its additions in many, many other countries. In a way, it's, it grew and inspired other neighborhood projects who then wrote to us and made their own. And that that was also true. It's a true bottom up project. It's not that we now claim we have created somewhere else. It kind of got into other cities. Where did it happen in what other places? It happened in Paris, a version of it was realized in Paris through our really good colleagues and then another version was realized in actually Chile, starting from Santiago to Chile, the whole Chile. And then another, another version was in, was in Delhi, like it was a more like a smaller artist project and one actually in our city in Kreuzberg was an artist group also who took it idea over and call it this is an intervention. And then there was also another version in that close by version in Sweden, and then also in Taipei so it was really like there were a lot of communications over like transnationally over balconies and even over oceans. Incredible almost like instructional art, you had some instructions to be in your neighborhood, create something in your balconies, share it, you know, with the neighbors and give freedom to artists to, you know, explore whatever they would like to do. I would like to ask both of you a question. So many artists we talked to also curious that when the lockdown started, it, life came to a halt. It was a shock to the system with kind of a car that you know as breaks and flips, and you're still in the air you don't know where you land. And, and people say it was a time we took out we reflected we went to our inner selves and communicated and understood. You know what we did was too fast too much and we lost some connections you guys very fast created something. And do you do you both feel this was a continuation of your practice. Because you wanted to continue or was it something new, we felt we have to engage now in a different way and not being in in Venice and Sofia and in Poland and all around the world in Portugal and Spain. We do something in our neighborhood so tell me a little bit what that moment meant to you and how it is really connected to the concept and vision of the project. So, you know, as we know in the moments of crisis, the moments of crisis are good moments to rethink certain things, right, they are shaky moments in which you see the power dynamics which you see your routines. So I guess it was more also of a gut feeling that for us who are so called independent curators. It was a big institution that now will think what to do we can react quite fast. That was also it was intuitive in a way but then later we thought about it. That it was also this condition of in being independent, in fact, interdependent. How can we now express the fact that we are interdependent for art. Can art be also an expression of necessity of this moment, and maybe some kind of recovery because we were craving for sense, all of us right we were craving to understand the moment in which we are, and definitely art is a medium, which can try and help us to sublime this moment to show signals you know to to augment it to turn it to recontextualize it and so you know it was a gut feeling but of course somehow something was telling us yeah we need to we need to do it right now. And yes, we both, as Yonah said, definitely like it was that intuitive that what that was the push that really like made us also organize ourselves in a very fast way in order to respond rather than to retreat because I think we both believe that the responses that you give to the moments of crisis very much then defines you know how you relate with it also also afterwards and and then we refuse to take a step back in a way we wanted to move forward and we wanted to take the challenge and see what is what is there for us, which is I think also yes I mean also in the project space but I think also personally was very formative gesture, you know in terms of like changing the relationship with the crisis. And indeed, you know, indeed, art has always a very particular, you know, responsibility in relation with the moments of crisis in witnessing and in transforming the moments of crisis. But at this in this part it was more like kind of stop and see and at the same time it was also yes it is soon going to be over so we are going to go back to our normal lives as you know, and when once this is over so most of us also like kind of I think felt that by the time one year is over or by the time even like the springtime was over this will be over but you know it's still not over and we are still inside it and we are still like actually like growing with it also human wise, you know and also in relationship to our surroundings. So, so curatorially I think both of our practices really carry that strong relationship with the formations of public spheres, and like also in to believing in that kind of gesture creation in order to intervene into the collective memory of public space, where the action also takes place. And where the kinds of actions especially like art takes can also refrain, you know that public space. And this is, this is also like kind of the most visible, I guess like an arts and performance history in very various critical moments. And, and then also like kind of one, one maybe important thing to add that we also believe that there is actually a particle of being stuck, you know, in the kinds of formats that we are using for that art world may be the fair may be the biennial may be, you know, may be like kind of the museum exhibition structure. So, we felt actually both that there is something that needs to be like kind of addressed and changed but nobody really kind of knew and wanted to continue despite you know there were all these different reactions and responses that were that were growing so I think also in that sense, you know, pandemic also pushed us like the question okay, you know what about the new formats that needs to respond so because clearly we cannot go on doing the same thing the world is asking us to do another thing and so really need to also take an action in order for like doing that so that we can also go along, you know, with the creative flow and led the way open, lead the way open towards other things also socially. And, and you know this is also still like a kind of a major question that remains because we also saw actually our arts professional arts colleagues started to respond differently in the second edition than the first edition. The second edition takes place. The second edition was one year later. Yes. What were the numbers how many people participated and what was the difference to the first one. Maybe John, you can tell a bit. Yeah, well, you know, the second edition was also going against how biennials are normally reinventing themselves and you write or exhibitions or premieres or like why do we need to like start from scratch while we already have this wonderful neighborhood and so many artists here so it's a representation to all the artists again with the same artist, obviously naturally as it is in life some moved out, some others moved in, somebody was already traveling, but the condition the pandemic condition the idea of being a neighbor, but also looking closer where we actually live. What is former is Berlin what has become with this gentrified place which is Prince Lauer Berg. What is the East German history of this place. You know those questions were not there in the first edition and they naturally throughout this first year. So the second edition was, yes, even more, even more participants, almost the same 80% the same plus some new ones. Maybe show us some images so we can get an idea. If you have something. Right now, yeah. Can you. Sorry, it has to open. You see the massive dead backdrop of my computer. We are working crazily at the moment. Right so for example, this is. This is a piece that, sorry. You can see it. We are just seeing the list john at the moment still you trace the images but we don't see the images. Let me know. I guess it's coming. Please post stop share. Okay, one more time. Sorry. So we get an idea of it. I can like kind of introduce me and introduce the fact that actually with the, of course, support of our community with the generous support of our community in our public. We also decided to move into, you know, different researchers that we are kind of connected, you know, with the with the public gesture, and also with that public private relationship that we are, we are interested in. And the second edition also not only involved, you know, the regular balcony, or kind of became becoming regular now, like kind of balcony interventions, but they also existed that kind of different public space researchers about the monuments in our, in our neighborhood and also some of like the end and also domestic as artistic archive. And so we also because Prince Lauerberg is a kind of a well known also neighborhood for the early afterwall, you know, very artistic neighborhood we're highly populated and it's still highly populated as honest as. So how do we trace actually the domestic, the artistic archive in the domestic space. And that was also a particular inspiration, for example, came from the, from the apartment that I live in. It's which used to be the apartment of. who's a nomadic also long term New York resident artist, and he was there with his ex partner for really considerable amount of time and produced really like important works in that period that, you know, that heightened his name and his artistic legacy, you know, in the contemporary art circles. For example, like we had that kind of a special project in my house with his kind permission and encouragement to really like given excess offer of the work that he had done in the house in the period of the house and the connect the house to his New York and Chang my residences. Give us both of you a little bit of your what happened really on the balcony so we can get an idea on image. What was the actual image now it's like it's different. I think I can see my my spring works. So, yeah, we see to we see a house, a house facade balconies and to to large train station like clocks. So this is a trip. It's a piece of David Rick, one of our neighbors, which is called untitled perfect lovers slash untitled our times, because it's actually a tribute or a remake of a famous work of Maria Gonzalez Torres from 2007 that shows two clocks which are, you know, going in synchronize synchronize clocks. However, because they are not atomic clocks at one point, one of them will go out of sync. And it was a project made at the moment when his partner was diagnosed with HIV. So another pandemic period. So David brings back this work shows those clocks only with the hour. Only hours in our drawing, grown, grown. Also to kind of maybe signal and reflect back at the flow of time that we have been experiencing in this last year, you know, in a way this day is being so similar and time flowing but also of course, putting this on one hand to pandemics which cannot be compared and yet. They are both state of exceptions. So putting those two experiences together and it was one of the first and maybe one of the most powerful artworks he installed in his windows. So it is also, I think we also see it as a very important, you know, like kind of a note, like here David, David makes in, you know, for us like what did we learn from that, you know, last pandemic. And what did it remain that did we learn our lesson as humans, did we learn to, you know, care about each other did we really like change a little bit our attitude. So he he really beautifully also connected, you know, connected these two periods, which we would remember as I think also this Douglas with Douglas crimps beautiful expression of mornings militant militant morning. So I think, yeah, I think that it's peace was also in this is as an act of militant morning in this way. And also away from photography what Douglas wrote out about, you know, to pieces where this most closer to visual arts or do you also have bodies of people performing. It was various really it was really depending on in all the different practices. We also have different artists closer to performing arts that reacted responded differently. And with all of their artistic expertise. Yeah, just for me, I cannot see the photos because they are hidden by the by your images, you know, maybe you have to do it full screen so we cannot see. I don't know. I'm sorry I'm having problems. You guys talk and I try to fix this. Don't worry about it we can always look it up and but you know just to add this because about the genre of this exhibition, it's an exhibition but because neighbors are coming you know from all disciplines their musicians their theater makers their writers or their visual artists. And at the end it was very interdisciplinary. So last year we had a BM Rue and Lina Madeleine, who actually invited all the neighbors and the whole building spoke for itself in a way in a performative way. And in both editions we had Suzanne as access and Mark Ziga, who are queering the streets with the performances from their balconies. So we did absolutely had also the, you know, live performance a lot of live performance actually, maybe we can. Yeah, in the in the first in the first work of Suzanne and Mark actually like one of the figures that they mourn because they lost three friends including Douglas. And also Tabea Blumenschein and like Walker Schlondorf. They commemorated them all together and their relationship actually you know to an alternative, like way of thinking life, and how they contributed to that. And they found actually also, you know, in the in the first edition, with their in a kind of a very beautiful fountain like fountain experience so the speech was recorded, and it was given to the street like every, every 20 to 30 minutes. And then, and sometimes in German and sometimes in English that kind of alternately like moving. But there was no one to be seen in the balcony, also, but only the images of Douglas Tabea and Walker Schlondorf that really created, especially in the first edition I think when the of course the streets were much more less populated so the voice echoed throughout the whole street it was very poetic. And then of course in the second edition they again used up, you know, like made a second gesture very much similar to that but this time with the images of with the images of Pini Adam Jack, Paul Preciado, and vaginal Davis. Some of you may familiar with vaginal also in American artists based based in Berlin for a very long time now. And so this was like the piece they let them all ask them all. So they were actually referring to that. Like, when was the first time and when was the last time but they were very much also breaking at the moment the code of a very gentrified neighborhood so they were also like asking a very, very radical questions. Such as, even such as like when you had last time have sex in public space. So really like kind of pushing against also the norms that define our public space at the moment and like the querying also our experience in a very particular way. And then the audience were also like able to participate further this time by receiving actually like different instructions, instructions that you mentioned. And that quite is in the form of questions to really also like think about when was their first time and when was their last time. Do we have some kind of statistics who say how many people kind of saw it enjoyed it recognized it is there. The beauty of public projects that you really actually never have the, the kind of number, because the number is also very much, I think, like, liberalization of art like art as an industry and like kind of counting people with numbers but I think what one of the beauties of the public space is like that actually kind of it's unidentifiable. And you could certainly see that thanks to really a really good press coverage by some really important also writers different newspapers we received a different kind of public that we saw. Okay, also for the for the project when we were for sure 10,000 neighborhood as you can imagine we were touring around the neighborhood with our bikes back and forth. There were tens of thousands of people as first viewers and then as you said second and third viewing and we are now looking at it. And so it is a stunning reinterpretation. And do you feel you learn something or something, what did not change your practice was that significant or was it something we say this is something we did in between but we will reconnect or earlier work what is the No, definitely it has changed us tremendously I mean first of all we started to work together from this. How do you know each other. We knew each other as neighbors and as colleagues but you know not very well so we know a curatorial duo and do bio. But more on the systematic meta level is that you know you also see for example in that this project is was based so much on a common economy of gift. In the first edition, it was completely zero budget it was really to send a signal to give a gift of sorts to others or to if you had no budget nobody got paid no not one year. It was a complete free and open artwork. The first, the first emergency. Yeah, the first emergency edition, and nobody asked single question. And of course we are all very sensitive about being paid right. Yeah, there was something just inappropriate, I think, because nobody really asked it was not needed. The money was not in the horizon and that was very liberating also that there were some other needs to do this than just having a fee, right. And in the second edition we got a grant from Berlin, but we tried to keep somehow and I think we managed to keep still this, this idea of a gift the idea of sharing of certain generosity, and also as curators, you know we were much less policing towards the artist we were much less controlling it was still based on, because how can you really oversee if this is something which is really coming from your domestic sphere from your living room, you know, it's like when I'm coming to your place of course I'm, I feel I'm a guest. So we were curators but we were also guests in those people's lives. Therefore, we cannot be in our capacity of a dramatic curator overseeing, and this actually created much better symbiosis and much healthier relationship with all these artists. We were even thinking like how it's possible that you know we didn't do so much for the production because it's again bottom up. And still, most of the artists were writing very grateful messages, even if they did all the work. But what, what, what happened, and probably what one of the answers is this is how can I be more in the this this in the sphere of the necessity in the sphere of being a gift of being a sign of our interdependency so we managed somehow to touch the project managed to touch on those issues so you know this definitely something we carry on with us. Yeah, how interesting and important to actually I was not so clear to me to think yes you actually are not in the gallery in a museum in a performance with you are at the home. And the artist is the host and that bizarre constellation only watch television and someone comes on your screen and says welcome. No, but it's your home and and here it's something very different but it's also the artist says welcome but it's really his or her home and it's a radical transformation of practices where normally people start out like the living theater started out in a living room so many performance artists started out in their in their own spaces and actually these were the great. Often they said these were the great great times or ended in small spaces like the squad theater in Hungary, when they were forced to leave. Or couldn't perform anything anymore outside so they went to their own apartments and, and then it was filmed supposedly by a friend and then was on the secret service and they had to leave overnight that the country so there is something about the closeness and in terms of let me tell me both a little bit of this idea of that socially engaged are the one clear Bishop writes about Tanya Brugera works about something that also Florian Maltzaker and others you know, you know, well they are they are partners who you work together to the idea that something needs to change has to change what is your curatorial practice what has it been all along and where are you going to what does that fit in. Well, I mean, maybe a with big question so we can devise a whole new seminar, you know on the question that you're asking. Yes, because we go back to the faces, maybe join us. I mean, just like also to add to what you wanna said I think this was the sense of sense of trust that you know we, we managed to build you know in our in our artistic networks but also in our conversation also with each other that really like enabled such project of generosity, like to happen because in order to be able to you know give outside, first we need to give to each other so that becomes also clear this act of generosity. I think it was was very, it was very clear in in both of the in both of the projects. And then of course it also I guess very much like heightened or desire to to try new models to experiment further and not to lock ourselves into a kind of particular defined formats in the way we are expressing, and in the way we are activating expressing our work, our thoughts or in the way that we are like facilitating or activating different connections between different spheres and sometimes also even like activist spheres, but I would say I mean I know of course like there is there's a really like a very particular strong like theories and socially like engage practice but from my side I think there is a kind of a huge change, you know, after, after in the way you know people start to communicate with each other the public space and intervene in that kind of collective memory of oppression. And they change something I think. And Tahi Square is Istanbul, you refer to. And also Gizipark so I would love to also connect to Gizipark because also these days as we are commemorating the eight year of Gizipark which is something so important for our generation in Turkey. Okay, so, so this was really like a kind of an intervention on a kind of refuse to kind of live with that oppressive memory of the public space and try to create something within. And then I think this becoming a kind of a whole living practice. So easily. Also, I think made us like then, then question or like kind of ask about like the current definitions of socially engaged art and then also another maybe question like on this line, it would be what is not really socially engaged anymore because we are actually like in the period right now where artists would like to be more enablers, you know, and doers, more and more even that we see this tendency, you know, in contemporary art it's, it is, yes, it is still like a kind of an outcome of a, you know, of a video or like an installation, but the process of enabling the whole communication that goes on to realize that piece to touch something a kind of a critical point in history or communication or a community's memory is really like about enabling and doing something and then we also see how artists then become speculative thinkers they become like historians they become they become fiction writers so they really take on these roles in order to to enable so I really do think, you know, these these experiences also really shift our understanding and practice of social engagement in in arts today, which clearly also shaped and being reshaped by what we experienced in the balcony and what is also being reflected in any other projects that we are realizing together with Johanna. Johanna in your, yeah, Johanna in your in your field of vision in your work, where does that fit in and and where do you see where is it going and was it always part of your work to do such a project and it just happened at this moment. Well, you know, we spoke about the stadium piece. It was also in that logic right art being outside of the white cube art being actually in relationship with the society for me personally. Art always feels too lonely in the museum. When I go to the museum and I see art object. It feels too abstracted it feels too lonely. It has always been interested in working with art in context. And the balcony is one of these very strong context for art you know where art really shows itself as a necessary part of the larger society. When it shows itself as almost like a snowball effect, because it opens visions, it opens ideas. And here to give an example, we had a fantastic, we had a contribution of Turkish Kurdish artist Pinar Ogrenci. And she just looked at the name of her street, which is a name of a landlord from 15th century. But then she looked at in the history they were like just few years when this street was named after a woman after a social activist, and she brought back an image of this woman. And with this she brought back all these questions. Why are streets called how they are, who are they called after, how many streets are called after women and how many after men. And you know this opens like a huge questions about public sphere, and the fact that for example in Berlin, I would be curious to know how it is in New York, out of the streets named after human beings. Only 10% are named after women. And why is it so I mean of course on one hand we know why is it so but what can we do about it and actually all these questions were opened by an artist. So this is what I mean by, you know, art sitting and being interdependent. I'm fairly inspired by the way just for you also to view independently. Yeah, yeah. So, for me it's also interesting to go generally beyond the culture of Mary display, because it's not only about display it's about having an effect in the world it's about actually one of the meanings of performativity. John Mackenzie was defining it right and of course from from Austin on having an effect. So finding a form which can be subversive and effective at the same time. So this, this kind of public art, which is not drop down plot plot art and the bad image of the public art that he has grown with the public art for many many years you know being out of a context this is really in the context is the is the opposite and I think it. It gives a lot of hope in how can art function in the society. Since we talk here normally a bit more about theater performance or dance how what do you guys think about theater what works what does not work for you or performance. Do you even watch it. What is your relation that you took art curators and what do you think about theater. You know, maybe you remember when we met 2009, then I was still a theater curator. And then somehow I, because I did theater studies and then I might migrate it to the neighbors which is visual arts more. Also because I found more discourse and more like, you know, more open mindedness maybe it's in the Eastern European context in visual arts. So I very much believe still in theater and the performative act but but there is some burden to it to which visual arts didn't have that's why somehow I migrated there, but I do believe in performativity very much. I mean, from from my side, I would say like I maybe like a kind of a reverse relationship in terms of my especially teaching, because what I am doing in the graduate school is is really transdisciplinary artistic research which means that we are really having different you know, lines of lines of art and different researchers who are engaged with music with stage with, you know, with the discourse of stage and with film alongside, you know, visual arts, or like kind of installation arts. And in this period also I get to connect with, I would say more choreographers also on my side, who are working on stage and who are like finding trying to find ways like to decolonize their practice, and then engaged in this kind of in this also more research, inviting me as the mentors in their process. For me like kind of coming back from like visual arts and I'm, I'm, I mean I'm coming mainly from the field of language and cinema. I studied translation studies and I started as a film writer and and then moved on to visual arts. I find like these conversations for me, a very, very interesting. On my kind of the discourse of performance and how it can be shifted and how that shift can be translated to the act on stage to the body on stage. And what it means also for a visual arts person like me to be part of that process I find it very liberating this is something very new in my life as of this year. No, it is, it is, it is a quite stunning project what you both created congratulation really on pulling it off so all but also really it connects to so many things your past work your present work also a future work is think it contributes and also highlighted the change the field is taking Bernie Furtman who we also had an hour program here who wrote the offsides contemporary form performance, beyond the site specific you know people said oh it's just, oh let's see something interesting in that old factory. Now we see something in that old swimming pool that's not used and, and people will enjoy it more than going to the old fashioned theater what you guys do of course the context the neighborhood the community, the history of the place that the place already has a history that forms its history through the artist and that helps us to create a meaning and also highlight you know what art really is all about and that you do not need the machine, you know so much of in perhaps perhaps a bit more visual arts I don't know no enough but also in theater you know it's about feeding the machine which is so hungry always something new with the breathless run especially in New York City a city where they say they never sleeps but always dreams and it doesn't rest you know there's something we realize it's not good about it and and you found something that is of importance as a symbol and part of an imagination of a new of a new world did artists you work with did they mostly stay in Berlin did they leave was this project part of they feel more connected. Well, what were the. How did they feel about it. They do live in Berlin and we receive actually in the first edition some questions from the journalists that they were not they thought that we were implementing artists in our neighborhood but we said no, these artists are living in our neighborhood we are not. I mean, they didn't leave. So many artists left New York City. Yes, many reasons. How was it in Berlin and they are here they are here are more and more here like we still despite actually it's not what it used to be of course, as we were mentioning about like the gentrification problem so there is a big housing crisis also in Berlin in the horizon that's very much there because of the real real estate prices and with the high demands of the city but they're still like artists, also from various parts of the world like they come to live still in Berlin, and in the, and despite the fact that they are not able to always show them or they not really know about their existence in Berlin because institutions don't always invite them. Actually also our project also showed something, you know that we matter we take the matters also in our, in our own hands rather than you know waiting for that, for that moment to really also like show that, you know show that production and show is really important critical critical input to our, to our city, and maybe that I would like to also add one thing that you said that you found something but I wouldn't say it actually be fun because it was there, we just listen to the call. And it's so of course maybe listening to the call of course it's not to all of these artistic histories and legacies that that actually worked in this field, clearly. But because of those things have been done then we are able to respond it also in a different way, I believe. So following up on this as a curator duo as a dynamic Prince Lauerberg duo that you, if I understand right also that pandemic brought you together and you realize you were neighbors and you realize you have a vision that you created something that you know, really produce something very meaningful to so many who participated in it. What is coming after this are you going to collaborate you have new project are you going to bring this let's say to Palermo or cities or Istanbul where the balconies you know are Significance you know we once had a reading of the play in Rome you know this is all about the neighbors you know these kind of courtyard houses you know where the balconies and you see and hear and Evicini actually was the neighbor so what are your projects. We are actually very very busy because in one month from now or even less opens a biennial that we do in Kosovo. It's called both together you both together together yeah it's called out of Strada biennial taking place in three cities in Pristina, prison, the very old city of Western Balkans, and paya. And of course it's not about the balcony at all. But what we bring from this experience is that. Yeah that art doesn't land there out of the sudden you know that that art is a part of a conversation with the local community. So for example we hope or their wishes or dre dreams we actually listened when we went there for this for the research trip. We just listened to so many interesting people, and based on what they were telling us, we kind of constructed the exhibition as a response to what they were saying. So the piece we open with is in collaboration with LGBT, QI community, and the pride parade in this region which is as you probably can feel it's not you know it's a very vulnerable structure. It's still dangerous business. So it's based on this host and guest dynamic, you know it's based on the diasporic and the local host and guest, and art is a tool. It's some kind of a glue some kind of skin that helps those two sides meet. And so it from the balconies to the Balkans you went. One can say that. But what are you what are you what else what else is on I know you guys are planning others is what are you or you have joined on your own what are you working on what's on your mind share a little bit of your ideas. Well, this is actually like at the moment the project you on the matches is what is all in our minds. You know, like, especially the project in the collaboration that we are realizing with with the community in Kosovo in terms of their also legal civic campaign for equal rights and visibility in the society. With, with the help of two amazing artists, Petrit Halilai and Alvaro Urbano, that we will be able to make an installation of their work in the National Library in order, you know, in order to help the campaign, and also give the project also the project that they realize another agency is as part of its journey. And to really also to really also discuss this different model of collaboration integration and how actually a biennial as such can respond to an on site question. So it can also like challenge its format and like also even makes itself also more vulnerable as opening it more like to this everyday struggle. And I think, I think our work in the in the balcony both also opened us even more further to like this kind of connection with the everyday struggle and like how we can bridge, you know, as curators, how we can facilitate the arts response to that everyday struggle and part and it's part in it. So, this is really like an important like a kind of a format change for us because we are clearly challenging the the biennial format as it is with every gesture that we are realizing also inside this project because we are also looking for something that we can do, which then the majestic floral installation of Petrit and Alvaro also become a symbol I think for our, for our search search as well. And then we hope to continue also in the autumn with in Riga with the 12th edition of the survival kit festival, where we are then bringing another infrastructure question like there to question the nature of survival kit today. And, and how again then art becomes means and carries agency in the questions around survival and especially in the constructions of in the age and care constructions of our liberal society today. You know, now it is, it is so important and especially also do do work in castle where we know a jayton net see right who wants, I think, when the, the national theater of castle that then was being threatened just to be destroyed such an important place for some real estate reasons or perhaps they people didn't like it and how come you did a play and toured around, and he told us how complicated the LGBT question still is and what they were facing when they performed that and these these things but I think what you don't offer a theater and performance is in a way I think that or Brecht one set a really good critique of the car was an airplane, you know, he said, you know it's not just that you, you know, how do you make it faster, what different color maybe you have four mirrors or whatever you said no said, let's fly or something so I think also would you, would you put up there is something that you know, lifted like the Mars. A little helicopter that even if it may not high and it was done in a small way but as they pointed out also the very beginning of flying where small so they are something you connected to and it's very meaningful comment and critique and encouragement also for the performing arts communities to really think through that concept of what you represented in in your work so basically because nobody knows what will happen you are not planning anything for next year for example the after you still open you. It's every all the cultural institutions they are holding back with future plans what's the situation. I think we are planning the balcony drive. Okay, or sure. Yeah, this is what we are planning. So maybe we should think of a New York edition we find something to do it and how we can, can find a place you know what traditionally artists that live like in that or once used to be the lower East side now it's Williamsburg you know and. And maybe we can get you over it we find some funders you know or. So you are also for hire people can approach you with projects or what is how does. How do you work together or do you create your own class for their balconies you mean. No in general, or do you work on your own you create your work. We respond to invitations. We respond to invitations indeed so we really and we really both, maybe as you understand like we, we both have like the one to really respond it in an infrastructural way this invitations we receive and to really like take care of context with the, with a different, different question and of course it is about the collaborative engagement it is about the feminist engagement. It is about a different horizontal share of powers and it's also giving power also different meaning in that in that moment of share. But we would like to really like also exercises to the like situations or the projects that are let's say sent to our care in a certain way or our address to our care and how we can find really like a sensible way of working with it each time new rather than repeating the same format over and over again. Yeah, now really stunning to to female curators you know I work in Berlin from the Polish and Turkish background, creating a project for that international neighborhood but also the very German neighborhood as you pointed out with the names and then and then went on to become a kind of a global initiative it's a stunning, I think. And for us who we are also looking for new forms for the new times we live in I think certainly this is something where one has why hasn't it happened before seems so simple as you said is kind of structural art and was not so very expensive, compared to what you think what what how much it costs to bring a company to fly in a big company you know it's 20 30 40 members and how much impact doesn't really has on one neighborhood sometimes you know it's just in the big houses. But I think they are not this all that I think we have to have additional engagements and they are the great Berlin festival and who also did the great down to earth project you know what happened in the park with all the electricity and by just with sunlight and and then there's something new coming out of that city of Berlin that is important for all of us so thank you. Really for sharing anything else it's on your mind maybe tell us a little bit what what helped you to get through that time what did you guys read. What did you listen to what inspired you what should our listeners say this is interesting follow that is there something some tips you have for us. There's always this question what's your favorite book and then you're like. You know what you're reading not favorite what have you just what have you been reading you know not favorite but what do you what has been meaningful in the last. Well, I've read the classic I mean the classic of queer, but it's US American so I guess everybody comes from the Argonauts, this is what I have read recently the queer life of a scholar from California. But it doesn't have to do and from the professional side I would definitely recommend an anthology, which is online about anti racist curating. What doesn't mean to curate in an anti racist way. It has been edited by free editors nor nor is one of them. Those my list my recent readings both private and professional. And from, from my side, I would say Gloria Anzaldua, the Borderlands a text I think very well known, also in in US, the Chicana. I'm a curatation artist and writer, which also the chance to study with with my students, which was really powerful as an experience also all together. And it was really also very good to revisit Angela Davis's race class gender for intersectional thinking. And this is, I think, and then alongside, maybe I should also like talk book that really also deeply shaken me was a Saudi heart months lose your mother that really deeply touched me in this period. And it really inspired for how you can create a new language out of out of a very particular very deep trauma how you managed to write a new history and a new relation on top of it with it and change the collective memory so I would say these are my fantastic. I would like to see you all both in New York or in Berlin when I'm there really. Let us know what you are doing anybody wants to do the balcony project project in New York City call us. It's, it's a grassroot movement it's open and other stuff. So really really thank you for taking the time for talking to us and wonderful moderation. I wish it would be wonderful. This is really one of the one of the best moderations that we really had it's really fun that thank you for your question is definitely good I didn't know you had so many I thought I just discovered you guys. I don't know, but that is, no, it is really, we heard about the project I think there was also a short mentioning in the times I didn't didn't see Florian of course that Frank think about that. Also, and, but I'm so glad we, we have you to a next week. We have Paulette Richards, Manuel Moran and the great Claudia orange team who writes so much about puppetry did the Rutledge companion and it's about socially engaged way how puppetry can connect to the times we are here so they are thinking about new ways to perform their puppets their objects and in that new time. And we live in Friday we have a great French, African French director penta do playwright penta diop and marine bashello new gun, and they will talk about their work in France and what it means for them and the inner reality, in that also changing the reality, and we're still working with other speakers Wednesday is not 100% confirmed yet but we will know much more soon so thank you all to our listeners for listening in I think that was truly a very interesting and important update from Europe. And the work is of significance and importance, and we really have to think about it and as I always say, think about also what does it say for our lives because we shouldn't just consume and the arts or see the incident. How can you in your apartment, you know, share your work invite people invite your neighbors create a little performances or do readings at home or do hang something out of your window if you can and and reach out and think about the history where where the neighborhood comes from maybe check out the name of the streets you live in so this is all of significance for us because it stands for something much bigger but also a call to get an engaged so thanks to how around again for hosting us the great Thea and Vijay Andy from the Segal Center and everybody who supports us so hope to see you again a great weekend and both of you enjoy a finally a nice sunny weekend in Berlin and I hope also in Portugal it should be there by any way so thank you all and and I hope you will write a little documentation about this book photos a little book production you should do that and take it serious so they have the balconies as a as a documentation that's I think visual arts are so much better than the theater people we often you know do something in the moment and then it's gone but I think this especially is a project that is someone for the history book so thank you all and goodbye stay tuned stay safe. Bye bye. Thank you. Thank you again for your Christmas bye.