 Hello and welcome to NewsClick, I am Poranjoy Gohatakurtha and I am sitting at the residence of the former Finance Minister and External Affairs Minister of India, Yashwant Sinhajee. Thank you Yashwant Sinhajee for giving us your time and it's not been very long, the 21st of April on your older son Jan's birthday, you decided to quit a political party with which you have been associated for about three decades and you said you don't want to have anything more to do with the Bharti Janta Party, you've launched a front called the Rajatriya Manch and you're saying you're not only are you going to join any political party, you will not accept any post. Now why did you choose this specific occasion to quit a political party with which you have been associated, correct me if I'm wrong, since the late 80's, soon after you left the Indian administrative service and joined politics in 1986. I joined politics just a factual correction in 1984, end of 1984, but I joined the Janta Party of Mr Chandrasekhar at that point of time, it was after some years in 1993 that I joined the Bharti Janta Party, so it has been an association of over two and a half decades. My longest political association with any political party in my career has been with the Bharti Janta Party. So it was hard-wrenching to tell you quite frankly, I chose 21st April not because it was Jan's birthday so much, but because we had planned a program in Patna and it was a Rajatriya Manch program, national forum that I set up in January, it was a program of that organization or association and I had been thinking about this for quite some time, you know, you're aware of the fact that I have been critical of the government. I'm aware of that, I'm going to ask you a few questions. Yes, on a number of issues, but when I found that there was no response, then I made up my mind that there was no point in continuing this sterile association. You know sir, if I can interrupt you, you have been a critic of the present government for quite some time. What I'm trying to find out is what really made you realize on the 21st of April or soon before that that, to use your words, democracy was in danger under the Narendra Modi government that somehow the government had so undermined democratic institutions in the country that you felt that its restoration would be a long, long time. So you didn't want to be associated with the party with which your son is associated who continues to remain a minister of state for civil aviation. Yes. No, it is, let me tell you, the first feeling that things were not all right within the Bharati Yantapati came from friends that I met across the board, members of parliament, even ministers, others. And I realized that there was within the party a very strong sense of fear. People were scared, they were scared to talk to me, they were scared to talk about what was happening. And you know that gave me, members of parliament told me that in our time when I was a member of parliament we had free exchange of views in our parliamentary party meetings. They said it has become one-sided, they speak, we listen. We don't get opportunity to put our point of view or our problems before the leadership. You know, Nana Potole who was the MP from Maharashtra, he left because he did not get... You openly said that my views are not being listened to. He was not being listened to. So, you know, some people have taken the extreme step but others are leading a life of fear within the Bharati. In fact on the 27th of September 2017 in the Indian Express the article that they titled, I need to speak up now, you said you'll be failing in your national duty if you do not speak up now and you said that you're convinced that what you're saying reflects the views or the sentiments of a large number of people in the BJP who are not speaking up because of fear. You think that atmosphere of fear is continuing? It is continuing and I tested it for the first time when I wrote that article in the Indian Express last September and then more recently, before I left the party, you'll recall that I had written an open letter to BJP MPs and especially requested senior most leaders like Advani Ji and Murali Manohar Joshi Ji to do something about the prevailing atmosphere of fear but again there was no response and then in the meanwhile Patna was coming up on the 21st of April and therefore I decided that there is no point in appealing to people within the party. They will perhaps not have the courage just now so I must appeal to a wider audience, must appeal to the people of the country. This is one part. The second most important part of this is that all the institutions of democracy in our country are under threat. They are, their effectiveness is being eroded and that is something which bothers me. You know, so just to name parliament, Supreme Court, Election Commission, media, Reserve Bank of India, agencies, investigating agencies of the government. You name them and they are all being compromised. So let's talk about these in a little while from now but since you mentioned the name of Shti L. K. Advani, Dr. Murali Manohar Joshi, there's also Shantakumar Ji, there have been many others including Mr. Arun Shuri, Govindacharya and in fact sometimes you are described as the angry old men of the BJP and everybody says you have a personal grounds. I remember you even said that do people stop thinking when you are 70? The whole idea was that it was suggested when your son became the Minister of State for Finance that you know Mr. Modi didn't like you know this familial connection because he was very critical of the Gandhinairu family. So he said if your son Janji has been made a minister, Minister of State for Finance, why should you also aspire for a post? And throughout the narrative has been Yashwant Sinha is unhappy because he hasn't been given a job, all kinds of suggestions were made that there was a brick spank, you were thinking of the brick spank and if you recall after the Indian Express article of the 27th of September, soon thereafter Mr. Arun Jaitley the Finance Minister sarcastically without mentioning your name said there are people who have become a job applicant at 80. So it has been painted out that you have a personal grouse and that's why all your anger is a that of a personal nature against the present government. I mean this question must be answered. I have answered it in the past but I'd like to answer it because you've asked me this question. In 2014 when the Lok Sabha elections were taking place I personally decided that I will not contest that election okay. You can ask anyone senior leader of the party and I told everyone that I would not be contesting the Lok Sabha elections because I wanted to opt out of this kind of electoral politics. So they gave the nomination to my son who contested and won and from Hazari Bagh and became a Minister of State in the government. Now I knew quite well even at that point of time that there can't be two people in government from the same family and I opted out I did not contest the elections therefore when I did not contest the election it was quite clear to me as it should have been to the others that I was not aspiring for any post okay but you know not aspiring for any post is not the same thing as not getting some respect from the government or the party to which I had belonged. And even Mr. Modi when he took over as Prime Minister he had I must say to his credit invited me to a meeting in which we discussed the replacement of the Planning Commission with Niti Ayok. Why did he invite me? I was not a member of the government but he thought that maybe I had something to say on the on a subject like this. After that I wrote him letters after that I made suggestions to the government on a number of issues because as you recalled becoming attaining the age of 75 does not mean that you have stopped thinking so I thought about things especially about national issues and I wanted to tell the government about some of those issues but that opportunity was denied to me and it was said as if what is it that they could do to me they they can't bring and I'm saying it with a challenge they will not be able to bring charges of corruption against me nobody has brought charges of corruption against me. There have been controversies we can talk about. No forget the controversies a controversy can be raised by vested interests about you me anybody but because that is closed therefore what else what what other charge can there be that other charge can be that I'm interested in a job opportunity I am looking for a job as Arun Jaitly said I have replied to that I am not interested and that's why in Patna I made it very clear that I will not join another political party and that I am not a claimant for any job in future. Now what could be more straightforward than this and how can this charge then stand against me? Yeshwant Srinaji you have been very critical of the government as you've said you've described the present government as a one-man show run by the Prime Minister Mr. Narendra Modi you've gone to the extent of suggesting that the current atmosphere of fear that is prevailing is worse than that what that was prevailing during the emergency in the mid 70s when Indira Gandhi was the Prime Minister of India you've gone to the extent of suggesting that even there's been some sort of a surveillance operation taking place with even attempts to you know put in chips in in set of boxes are you not overreacting that this government is sort of scared everybody and spying on everybody conducting some sort of mass surveillance operations and isn't the analogy with the Indira Gandhi's emergency a bit stretched that you know that then the civil liberties the civil rights of the country were completely abridged and you know the media was completely censored barring a few people who protested how can you compare the situation prevailing in the mid 70s till now to what is happening today Indira Gandhi's emergency was to borrow a Hindi phrase a Jhatka operation suddenly one day or one night it was announced that emergency has been imposed many people were put behind bars and restrictions are imposed on a number of institutions including the media now this is something which everyone felt that here is you know emergency which has been imposed in this case in the present case it is slow poison it's not a Jhatka it's not a sudden operation it is slow poison which is being injected into the system liberties freedoms are being taken away and we are not conscious of it because it's not hitting us as much as Indira Gandhi's emergency hit us but I had told you earlier that if you look at any of the institutions with democracy you will find the very sorry state in which they are and if you give me the time I'd like to begin with the Parliament of India okay I have spent a lot of time in the Parliament of India you first became a Rajasabha MP in 1988 am I correct yes and almost continuously almost continuously in Parliament and tries in the Lok Sabha right now what is the most important function of Lok Sabha the most important function of Lok Sabha is to determine whether the government of the day has majority or not isn't it one of the one of the important point but the most important I'll say because it's also to enact laws to do a lot of other things okay but the most important constitutional responsibility of the Lok Sabha is to determine the majority of the government because once that majority goes even by one vote then the government goes right okay you remember April 1999 at the Hari Vajpayee's government one vote one vote so that is the that is the strength that is the power that is the majesty of democracy and this time you have a government who's not even willing to admit a no confidence motion filed by a number of parties in the opposition there was not allowed to come up and every day the speaker will get up but just say I can't count 50 people and therefore I'm unable to admit the motion then why should there be a Lok Sabha because it failed to perform in the din she got the budget passed including the finance bill with very important amendments but she could not count 50 people because it was being deliberately disrupted parliament was being Lok Sabha was being deliberately disrupted by the ruling party people why would they do it they have a comfortable majority they had but there was no issue right there was no question of the government losing a vote of confidence and the floor of the but that's where you're making a mistake paranjai jay there would have been a discussion that's right in the discussion a whole host of issues would have been raised the failures of the government would have been pointed out the media despite all the curves would have carried some of it it would have reached the people of the country that this is how the government is functioning they did not want that discussion I don't believe in rumors that some MPs or the BJP would have voted against the government but the government would certainly have been criticized severely by the opposition even though the opposition is weak even though the opposition is weak and even though the government would have one majority but where does it say in the rules of Lok Sabha that a vote of confidence no confidence can be brought only when you have a majority to prove that the government does not have a majority where does it say that so Lok Sabha has not been allowed by the government to perform its most important constitutional responsibility I stop you here there we will discuss this I mean there are a number of things to discuss let me take on one issue and because it is topical and that is this whole issue of don't call it corruption call it sweetheart deals I want your opinion on what you think the media reports concerning the Minister for Railways Mr. Piyush Goyal and his wife now we've recently had a rejoinder coming in from the Pyrimal group and because it has been alleged in that article that there was some sort of a quote unquote sweetheart deal between the two and the Pyrimal group has said there's no conflict of interest and on issues of valuation they can be a dispute but the more important question is why is it that Mr. Piyush Goyal did not disclose these facts and the transactions and the sales of these assets and come of the companies where he and his wife are controlling these firms to the public at large you know the Prime Minister has made it clear that all the ministers have to disclose their assets the election Commission of India has certain rules about affidavits what are your views on the recent controversy my view is very clear and it's not only about Piyush Goyal case it's about a number of other things other cases also you know some facts come to the notice or come into the public domain they raise a doubt now the the policy of the government has been that if it is going to be inconvenient the truth coming out is going to be inconvenient then let's kill it at that stage itself so that truth does not come out and I'm sorry to say that where there has been very strong prima facie reasons for a further inquiry or investigation they have been stopped the government just says no no I recall when your son's name appeared in the the Paradise Papers you said that please investigate his involvement just like you said if the son of the Bharti Janta Party president Mr. Amit Shah his son Sugesh Shah if their companies have done something which is irregular or illegal that should be investigated it was never investigated Jay Shah's case but it was not alleged that there was any corrupt practice it was merely what you might call a sweetheart deal where the his company's business is suddenly shot up and then closed that that's what the official records then then you know it burst into flames and and and closed no the point I'm making it in his case as in Jansina's case if anybody felt that there was a case for further inquiry in Justice Loa's case if there was a case for further inquiry in Piyush Goyal's case you think that fact should suggest prima facie that there should be an inquiry why are we running away from that inquiry why can't we have an inquiry or an investigation and bring out all the facts in public domain and then let the public decide whether there was conflict of interest why is the government because government is trying to conceal something which will cause embarrassment to the government you mentioned just as as clear as that you mentioned Justice Loa but before I come to the Justice Loa and the controversy relating to the Supreme Court of India while you were writing you wrote an article in NDTV on the 20th of February where you laid out you asked for about 10 questions from the government on the scandal on the the scandal in the Punjab National Bank pertaining to companies controlled by Mr. Neeraj Modi and his uncle Mr. Mehul Choksi now you have there pointed out that when you were the Finance Minister there were Ketan Parik scam and when Dr. Manmohan Singh was the Finance Minister there was a Harshad Mehta scam and both of you appeared before the joint parliamentary committee to explain your position you also in your own biography which I read and reviewed you yourself described the the scandal pertaining to the unit trust of India as something that you know you feel you are regretful that you acted in the way you did I'll read out the exact sentence the whole UTI affair is a very sorry chapter of my tenure as Finance Minister and you conceded that you made a mistake in not cancelling a meeting you had with Mr. Vajpayee so I'm saying here in the case of the Neeraj Modi scandal do you think also the government is deliberately suppressing information it finds out how quickly the valuation of the goods that have been seized but it's not mentioning whether the letters of undertaking which year when it went a lot of information is not the most important question there is how did he run away from the country how did Neeraj Modi how was he allowed to leave India how did he get photographed in that Hall of Fame photograph in the Davos meeting in the Davos meeting with the Prime Minister you know because these things don't happen in a jiffy they build up over a period of time and his scandal was building up over a period of time mehul choksi Neera Modi and then he runs away from the country after some time we'll forget about it because some police investigation will take place and let me tell you here and now that I have lost faith in even CBI enquiries so you think the same story with Mr. Lalit Modi Mr. Vijay Malia is going to be repeated it has been repeated it has been repeated and other there would there could have been I would have demanded a joint parliamentary committee enquiry but after the 2g joint parliamentary committee unfortunately have lost faith in the JPC system also but when the Harchad Mehta scam took place we had a congress chairman of the JPC Mr. Ramnivas Mithra and he was a gentleman to the core and we were in the opposition and he allowed us not only to ask any question that we wanted to ask little those people yes but also asked us to write various chapters of the report where he thought that we had more knowledge and expertise no no but is that happening now but why are you holding the finance minister responsible I read out from your article you said it is not possible for any finance minister to personally supervise the day-to-day functioning of every organization and institution under his control which includes a whole host of organizations yet under our parliamentary system the ultimate responsibility will rest with the minister who is responsible for that ministry so the finance ministry cannot be absolved of his constitutional and democratic responsibility are you being fair to Mr. Jaitley let me explain you mentioned UTIC crisis which took place 2001 yeah did we have did the government of India have a representative on the board of the UTI no we had nothing to do apart from the fact that LIC and certain other public sector institutions had share holdings in the UTIA the government had nothing to do with the UTIA absolutely nothing in Chidambaram's time UTIA had been released from all controls from from from the from the government now I was held responsible for whatever happened in the UTIA there was an adjournment motion on that issue in parliament wasn't it yes so if I can be responsible for Ketanparek or UTIA or Manmohan Singh for Harchad Mehta how can Jaitley not be held responsible constitutionally and morally and legally for what happened with the Punjab National Bank which is a public sector bank therefore we have to make a distinction between the day-to-day functioning of an institution organization within the ministry and the overall constitutional and moral responsibility for that who is responsible to parliament the finance minister who takes complete responsibility the finance minister so parliament has to hold the government generally and Jaitley in particular as responsible okay now Mr. Sinha you know the whole when you have been critical of the government the issues have been muddied again and again by personalizing the issues for instance when you wrote that article in the Indian Express in September 2017 the response came from your son you had made a series of remarks about what you felt was mismanagement of the economic affairs of the country by Mr. Jaitley the finance minister the response came from your son Jain Sinha so you've been said that you're at best being hypocritical your own son is very much a part of the government and yes of course he's he's an independent person so what if he's your son he's educated he's studied in eminent or well-known educational institutions Indian Institute of Technology Delhi high Harvard Business School he's held important positions but this whole attempt that your son is made to refute the I'll tell you why I'll tell you why first of all that article which I wrote in the Indian Express created ripples which were quite unexpected even I did not expect that you know it will cause that kind of waves in the system but it did for whatever reason must because must be because it touched a chord somewhere the other is that after that this the the success of that article let's put it that way the government adopted a two-pronged strategy to counter it one was to reduce it to the level of a father-son duel a debate between a father and a son so Jain Sinha wrote that piece and everybody you even today you're asking me Jainth wrote that piece and you know he's your own son and how do you explain it number two they tried to they tried to trivialize it by gently making that personal allegation that I am a job applicant at 80 apropos nothing there was no provocation in that function for him to say that but he said it because he wanted to trivialize the whole thing my contention all along and even today is please reply to the issues that I have raised you've raised a whole set of issues again demonetization yeah please services that is job creation, accreditation, etc. please please reply to those issues why make it a father and son debate why make it a personal debate between Arun Jaitley and me no I'm not interested in that and I must tell you that because of the reply that I gave on both counts that that attempt of the government did not succeed and people did not believe that it was a father-son debate only or that I was really looking for a job I want to take you a little bit back in time and then come back to the present you know it is said that after you worked with the Indian administrative service the IAS for about 24 years and then subsequently you joined politics you were at that point of time fairly close with among other politicians Karpuri Thakurji and that there were certain socialist leanings in you and that you were at times not so happy with Ayodhya movement that your relationship with Elki Advani Ji has been sort of blow hot blow cold love hate if you like you were critical of his visit to Pakistan and some of the points you made but now you're seen as the same side also critical sometimes thing I want to ask you two points what is your association with Mr. Advani and why do you think Mr. Advani has not publicly endorsed the points that you made and secondly I want you to talk about the second part of the question is the the allegation by the opposition that our society has become excessively communalized the Hindu-Muslim divide has worsen for a variety of reasons including cow the whole cow slaughter business, garwapsi etc and you yourself I think you were arrested briefly in Hazaribagh on April 2007 for holding a religious procession I'm linking up many things sir you start with Mr. Advani and then the communal issue you know I worked with Karpuri Thakur as a civil servant then I joined the Janta Party which was headed by Mr. Chandrasekar he was another socialist as a civil servant I did not have an ideology and that's a point which I have made very clear from time to time I studied socialism as part of my teacher of political science yes so it's not that I'm unaware of the philosophies political philosophies whether of socialism or communism or market economy or whatever but as a civil servant I did not have a pronounced ideological leaning one should not have and I also did not have but because of my association with Karpuri Thakur and with Chandrasekar it was assumed that I had a socialist leaning and I am not going to contradict that yes I believe in socialism I believe in equality of opportunity and I believe in a society which which is which takes everyone inclusive society that is I have absolutely no problem with I was critical of the demolition of the Babri Masjid there is a speech of mine in parliament in Raj Sabha which is often quoted which was not very praising which was not praise worthy of praising the BJP including Mr. Advani in particular yeah but the point I'm making is when I joined the Bharti Janta Party Mr. Advani was very very very nice to me all along and that enabled me to move from one position of responsibility within the BJP to another. Do you remember I'm sorry I'm jogging your memory a little bit in July 2002 when you switched sides with Mr. Jaswant Singh external affairs and finance portfolio it was said this was done at the instance of Mr. L. K. Advani because it was felt that you know at that point of time there were too many contributions. No you're absolutely right I had told Mr. Advani that if I am moving out of finance and if I don't go to external affairs which the only other ministry that I'd like to accept then I'll be out of the government I'll be a member of parliament he must have spoken to Mr. Vajpayee and it was external affairs where I got shifted so there is no doubt that Advani played a role and a very important role in that the only difference that I had with Advani was on not his Pakistan visit but a certain statement that he made about Jinnah being secular and I did not agree with that statement because it was he quoted one of speech of Jinnah and I did not think that that absolved Jinnah during his visit to Pakistan. Yeah the communal role that he had played in our history so there was that difference okay but we made up I met him subsequently explained my point of view to him he explained his point of view to to me and the issue was forgotten between him and me now I have always been and I'd like to say it specifically on record I have been a great admirer of Advani just as I have been a great admirer of Atalji in the BJP these were the two tallest leaders of the party under whom or with whom I had the opportunity of working and I enjoyed every day of that so why has he not so it has not been no let me tell you okay it has not been an off and on hard and soft relationship with Advani it has been consistently except for that Jinnah remark it has been a consistently cordial relationship that I've enjoyed with Advani J. To the other question I'll say yes during the last four years the polity has been communalized much more so than one minute sir Mr. Advani also has not endorsed you you want you said one of the reasons why you left the BJP on the 21st of April was because you did not get any get any support from within the party and you mentioned Mr. Advani's name in that context yeah so that's a fact so he hasn't he hasn't he has not criticized me he has not supported you okay now coming to the communalization of Indian society in the recent past what are your views on that my view is very clearly that communalization is taking place and I'll go back to the old thesis that if there is communalization of the majority community then in response there is a greater communalization of the minority communities and if the reverse is also can also be true that if the minority community is communalized more than acceptable levels then there will be a response from the majority community so this these forces have been playing I mean there are leaders in the Muslim community who are as or even worse communalists than anyone in the Hindu community but when you look at the government today Mr. Modi has completed four years as the Prime Minister almost four years and he talks about Sabka Sath Sabka Vikas but do you believe in these last four years the tensions between Hindus and Muslims in India have widened and what you might describe as the majoritarian view the view that the majority view will always prevail has become even more magnified intensified in the yes yes I'll agree with that that there has been much greater communalization of the majority community in the last four years they have become more assertive and the minority community has been at the receiving end of this growing communal feeling among the majority community okay let me ask you to gaze into your crystal ball a little bit and see where we are going to move this country is which direction is going to move in the coming say year or thereabouts we have the Karnataka assembly elections that are going to take place in we'll know the outcome by the on the 15th of May around the the 12th of May is when the elections will take place would you like to make any comments on how you see the whole campaigning that has been going on in Karnataka in the recent past I will not only confine myself to Karnataka you can go back to Gujarat say that in recent in recent elections whether they are elections for the state assemblies or even by elections you're talking about Uttar Pradesh and and wherever elections have wherever elections have taken place the discourse has been very coarse you know the political level of political discourse should not be reduced to this level certainly not by people who are occupying highest positions of responsibility for instance in the Gujarat election you know talking about Pakistan talk accusing a former prime minister of being in cahoots with Pakistan in conspiracy with Pakistan to defeat the Bharti Janta Party in Gujarat was I think absolutely uncalled for on the part of the prime minister so similarly in in in Karnataka the level of discourse has been brought down so considerably that it is not it's not civilized anymore that should not be the level and that is not the level to which Vajpayee ever descended to win an election you know losing an election is not a sin but spoiling the discourse reducing the quality of discourse is a sin okay if you look ahead in the I'm going to come back to you with a few points on institutions and some of the issues which I haven't been able to touch on including demonetization but before on the issue of politics in the next 12 months the standard talk is among certain in certain circles is that the opposition is deeply divided the country doesn't want one more of ragtag coalition whether it be of the janta party type or the united front type and the the congress is extremely weak and therefore we are in a situation where the the opposition can't come together there are no personal there are no tall personalities also it is alleged that Mr Rahul Gandhi as the leader of the congress will not be able to put together that coalition what are your views do you believe just as once upon a time anti-congressism became the glue that ensured that whether it be the bharti jant sangh or the BJP with the left with the socialists coming together the time has now come to form a kind of a front where the only common factor is anti-bjpism if you like or anti-modeism if you like no first of all let me tell you you use the expression the country does not want the country would not want no i'm i'm seeing in certain circles that have been claimed no how do we know how do we know what the country wants all right i mean for us to sit 12 months before the election and say the country will not want this country would not want this to the answer to your question is if the janta party had not won the 1977 elections loxabai elections do you think democracy in this country would have survived if the the government might have fallen apart it may not have survived it may not have served its full term but they rendered a historic service to this country by saving its constitution and saving its democracy and it was 1989 and uh which was 1989 i would not say that democracy was in danger as it was in 77 or is it today so it didn't work out but you know that is that apart the very fact in suppose in 2011 in 2012 we were talking would you have predicted that Mr. Narendra Modi will be the prime ministerial candidate of the BJP none of us would show because he emerged leaders emerge leaders are not made they're not created they emerge out of circumstances and therefore i don't despair i don't despair that oh opposition will not unite congress is leaderless Raul Gandhi will not carry any conviction that they have no program except anti-modeism anti-bjpism no maybe they'll put together a program okay maybe they'll have a better program would you would you work towards putting together such a problem i i if given the opportunity i most certainly will a sort of a common minimum program that we discussed more than a common minimum program we should have a more than a common minimum program and the the parties in the opposition you know look at the indian political scene today there is the congress party which is the all india challenger to be it's the weakest it's ever been historically but but but it is weak but then there are regional parties that's correct which are dominant parties in their own respect respect the states fridamul congress, biju jantadal, dmk, ai, dmk, telangana, judeesh timiti that's right so there are a whole lot of regional political forces and then there is the congress party they'll have to at some point of time discuss all these things and come together if they want to put up a fight would you like to yourself facilitate such a process through the irashtriya manj? let's see let's see i am not making any commitment at this point of time but i certainly would like to advise political parties in the opposition okay all right uh you know i want to take a step back and he one of the reasons you've talked about you said i don't know whether you how you would compare that with the 70s and indira gandhi you called the present government as a one-man show mr. Arun Shuri called it a high vektika sarkar but the centralization of power that we see today would you say it's unprecedented and i want to link this to a second part of the question which is demonetization but let me start with no let me answer the first question first you know we have been talking about the gujarat model what is the gujarat model as i have been able to understand it gujarat model is the chief minister the chief minister's office controlling everything through the bureaucracy not through the ministers through the bureaucracy so the secretary to chief minister will be in touch with the secretary of the department or a ministry and they'll be working out future programs or whatever has to be done by the government that gujarat model has been imported didn't indira gandhi do something similar no she she did not completely marginalized marginalized the political personalities you know so you still had important political personalities even during the emergency so it was not the gujarat model the gujarat model is now being implemented has been implemented in delhi where the ministers have become irrelevant it is the pmo pm pmo and the ministry officials who are doing everything so the pmo is directly in touch with the secretary of the ministry often without the knowledge of even the minister in charge can you give an example no i'll not like to give examples because they they the examples will hurt but i'm sure i have personal knowledge and not necessarily from my son that they this is what exactly is happening and therefore ministers have been reduced to nil responsibility in this government this is the pattern now in november of 2016 the sudden abrupt disruptive decision to demonetize 86 percent of the country would you describe this as a manifestation of this as the most whimsical decision of one man it was the the most important it is the most important example to date of that gujarat model that i was describing was anyone in the cabinet taken into confidence he went through the motions of a cabinet no no that there was a reserve bank of india that meeting was held rbi according to my information that meeting was held and he left the meeting in the middle the prime minister and said i'll make a speech and come back and he announced the demonetization measure as far as rbi is concerned we have now uh raghuram rajan on record to say that he had opposed it the new governor did not resist not only did not resist but acted as a rubber stamp with his board of governors and approved of this suggestion so everyone was steamrolled into into into accepting this muhammad bin tughlak decision tell me there is speculation that raghuram rajan might even head the central bank of uk but let's forget that do you believe that the rbi governor and the rbi as an institution has been undermined terribly and and and this decision of the gst and and we are seeing the impact of gst still happening the automated telemissions are going right this has done a lot of damage to the institution of the central bank the apex monetary authority absolutely absolutely it has done a lot of damage and nobody today believes in the autonomy of the rbi probably not even the governor about job creation what are your views you know we are getting all kinds of data that is coming up different people interpret data in different ways uh they what comes out from the employee's provident fund what is done by the labor bureau but there is an attempt being made to show that the present government's track record in job creation has not been as bad as the opposition has tried to make it out to be what are your views my views are that job uh data is not does not become available anytime soon you know it takes it has a long lag now having said that i'll make one general point you talked about the labor bureau that general point is that if the present system of job data collection does not uh bring the government to project the government in in a good light then we'll change the system and that's exactly what is going to happen same way as the gross domestic gross domestic product numbers yeah you have said because of changing the methodology you artificially inflated that figure by roughly two percent yeah that is one the second is that in our system of collecting data as has been pointed out by a number of economists we don't get organized sector data for almost three years so you don't have the impact of GST and demonetization on the unorganized sector which was the worst affected it's only the corporate sector data which is suggesting that we are growing at seven point three percent or whatever so that apart the point i'm making is as far as jobs are concerned now the government is referring to the um employees proven from data that is being challenged by people and where you know it must be seen we we have not referred for instance to the telecom sector i saw a report in the media we said that 80 90 000 jobs are going to be lost in the telecom system sector alone we know the problems in the IT sector where job creation leave that apart job losses are taking place sector after sector of the indian economy is in dire distress isn't it construction which is the biggest employer what is happening under the circumstances to revive the economy because you yourself have said no it is not revived i'm saying that seven point three percent would perhaps be four point three percent even less there is this famous economist called Arun Kumar a former teacher of the Jawaharlal Nehri university who believes that we are going at minus rate but we are claiming it's seven point three okay if the economy is in such a terrible shape as you and others have made it out to be what is the way forward i mean i want you i mean since we are running out of time and i've been talking to you for almost one hour i want you to outline what needs to be done and i go back to how i started your rashtra manj and other people who are as critical of the present government as you are what do you think should be the way forward a the youth of this country they are the suffering the most because of job losses half the population of this country is today below the age of 25 26 we have presumably one more year to go before the next general election the concern what according there's nothing which can be done in this last one year this government has exhausted all its options and all its opportunities there is nothing that one can expect from this government we are already in the electoral mode after karnataka will have the other state elections and then the parliament elections so no major decision is going to be taken especially in popular decision and you are aware of the fact that in order to move the economy at times you have to take unpopular decisions so they will not do that so i don't expect anything from this government in the next 12 months but what should be done to rev up the economy there are a lot of things which have to be done up done i used to say before this government came into position as they spoke person of the barchi and tapati before the elections that we should hit the ground running when we came into government and it was you had the bonanza of low oil prices low oil prices and we should do two things one is deal strictly with the problem of bank nps and two you know clear all the stalled projects how would the country move forward if projects are not there so clear the stalled projects which have been held up for various reasons and deal with bank nps how have we dealt with bank nps the government will tell you about more than half a dozen initiative that they are taking no but why has then it gone up to nine lakh crore they are saying because it's now coming out into the open no it is not it's it was always there and if the economy had improved real really then the problem would have then would the problem would have been automatically solved so you think that the the the rise in the unpaid loans of the banks and most of them are big business houses yes yes i mean the total amount in about nine lakh crore which is bad debt as far as the agricultural sector is concerned is only sixty thousand crore rupees only sixty thousand crore and why is there a gradient distress you know as i said in that letter if the we are the fastest growing economy of the world why a bank nps growing year by year quarter by quarter by why is there a gradient distress why is there so much unemployment why are sector after sector of the economy failing so clearly the picture is not what the government would like us to believe. Mr Sena you know last question positively last one political funding you know when you you have also had your share of people who have been accusing you that you were didn't play it straight correct me if i'm wrong there have been specific allegations leveled against you about the way you your expenditure details to the rajasabha while you were finance minister i remember your association with an industrialist also came up and you do mention all of these things also how do i conclude the conclusion is has this government no no but let me let now that you have raised that issue which is a long settled issue as i'm concerned let me clarify that i had reflected all these expenditures in my election return expenditure return and that's how i was able to convince parliament but be that as it may election funding is a very important issue and the government has made it more opaque through these new bearer bond schemes so you are saying you made it public about the posters getting printed by mr ashok chaturvedi of flex industries his employees staying in your house all those you said you made public completely employee took my this house on rent okay now there was no quid pro quo as had been alleged what could be the quid pro quo that he sent me a few pamphlets printed some election material i stood up in luke sabha i stood up in raj sabha and said whatever material he supplied has been accounted for in my expenditure return i paid for them all right and i explained it to the election commission finished okay this government mr jetley said i'm going to make the election funding system more transparent there's the issue of electoral bonds then using the money bill he does retrospective events twice to the foreign contribution regulation act has election funding become more transparent has no nexus between big business and politics has not it has not it has it has become between big business and the the government of the day the political party in power you know it has become a much more cozy relationship than it was it is not transparent is transparent only in the sense that government will know everything others will not okay i got you positively the last remark i want from you would you urge the people of india to vote out this government yes without doubt without blinking an eyelid i'll say when you get the opportunity please vote out this government thank you very much mr yashwant Sinha for giving us your time you've been very patient you've done a lot of research i must thank you sir my pleasure thank you