 Okay, welcome back, yeah, so we'll, Pastor John had, had raised a question about in case, in the case of someone who is, who has addictions, you know, you've worked with someone, maybe certain plan has been decided, they go in and then, you know, again, they come back. So I think one of the things that we would, I mean, yeah, so I think what Pastor John was asking was that even a second time, you're coming back with the same kind of responses or the same kind of to do what, what can you do. And I want to answer this maybe in two, two or three ways. So the first and foremost thing, specifically when you're looking at something like addiction. Okay, when someone is going through an addictive issue, there can be chances of relapse. Okay, and we've seen that so when you're looking at it on a through science, there can be possibilities of relapse that happens. So all because they have been, they've given up the addiction. There can be chances that it can work, it can come back again. And that are different factors. So I don't want to go back into that, but that's something that you will begin to notice. The second thing is that when people do come back with relapses, it doesn't mean that their attempts to get help the first time has failed. It doesn't mean that. Their attempts to get help has probably helped them to sustain themselves for the few months they've been abstinent on on that substance. But they've probably come through the next next stage of working through this because something like addiction, it's not just being hooked into a substance, right? It has a lot more of other aspects that go through that. There are emotional branches that they've been going through. There may be situational issues that they may be having. They may be personality, temperamental concerns that we have not dealt with. They may have got back into a sense of a spiritual decline. So there may be many aspects that bring a person back to relapse. So my thoughts are, even if people do come back with their relapse, we need to support and help and take them through maybe another couple of weeks, couple of months of help and counseling and may have to do the entire exercise that you did at the first time, similarly get back to them because addictions are not easy to give up until and unless they have been absolutely wholly delivered by the spirit and then they walk in that freedom. The minute or times when that kind of lapses, this could come back. So even if it happens again, I would say continue to give your support, continue to give them the help that they require. And I think through the process, what you're also looking on to see, which is something you would even do in a clinical setting. This is something that a doctor or a psychiatrist would do is that, let's say there are multiple, what do you say, relapses in quick succession. And that they use the hospital or they use the counseling center as a place, like a refuge. So we've seen when I was working in a hospital, we've had people who've been addicted, they repeatedly come back, maybe every three months, they're back to the hospital because they know that the hospital will take them in and help them through that. And then, so they don't build their skills in them. So during repeated things like this, there have been clinicians who put their foot down and say, the next time you do this, you're not going to get admission here until you work for that. So some of those techniques may be needed in or as you assess the situation. But again, what you're also doing is to really, if you remember in the last class, we spoke about those five places of being. We said physical, emotional, volitional, relational and spiritual. So when you're looking at a problem, you're assessing it from all these five areas. And sometimes it may not just be spiritual, it could be something, it may be just physical dependence. They have that high sense of craving and they aren't able to work through that. So there are certain ways that you could bring down physical craving. So to have that wisdom and that discernment to see which area of these five areas of functioning is it that is being that you really need to address? Maybe the first two times that you're meeting with them, it may not be very clear. But as you keep meeting with people, the same person over the same issue, you begin to see clearly that there is this one aspect of their functioning that is being compromised, is being a problem. And so you come to a place of dealing with that. So unfortunately, I can't say that this is the way that you will deal with all of them because all people come presenting with different kinds, even those with addiction come presented with different kinds of issues behind them. It could be a familial issue, it could be a personality issue, it could be something to do physically, it could be a spiritual issue. So all of this is what as you work with them, it becomes a clearer picture. But nevertheless, I'd say have the grace to work alongside with them repeatedly till a point of time, you kind of sense that they're manipulating you or that there is a certain sense of extreme dependence that's there. That's when you could kind of cut off and say maybe it's important that you get help from maybe a hospital or get help from somebody else. Because even familiarity sometimes could breed that sense of a dependence back. So I know I haven't given you a clear answer, but I think straightforward I'd say is if there are initial two, three, four times, have the grace to take them on back and work the same things again with them because relapses are common in addictions. That's really helpful. OK. Yeah, so when we talk about the overcoming temptations and things like that, so we can still emphasize on the same truth and after listening to them, of course, but we can reinstate the same truth and this is what God says about this. And because these are people who come to church regularly. And so there is no other solution or this is the way we have to work towards it. And that's what we can emphasize. Yeah, yes. So if you do sense that they may need a little bit more in depth work, that's when you need to help them see like if a person is being repeatedly falling into relapse, it also does bring up in our mind that something is not settling or something is not going right for them. And if we are not able to help them at that point of need, like for them, they may say, you know, every time my wife fights with me, then I'm going, then I go drink, which probably could mean that there are issues in the way that they deal with conflicts at home. So that needs to be addressed, right? Maybe one of the manifestations of other problems is the drinking or is the smoking or whatever, but there may be other issues that's enabling this behavior. So what you're doing is, OK, maybe if this is what you're saying, you know, this is what triggers you to drink sometimes, then go and figure how you can solve your issues with your wife or the issues in your relationships so that you are minimizing the effect it has on your drinking or on your addiction. Right. So that's something that we will need to also be open to know to find what are the other triggers or maybe it's a sense of it's a sense of worthlessness that he's having or it may be feelings of incompetency. So that's triggering. So every time he feels like that, you to forget this, he goes and drinks. So we need to work through some of those as well in order to resolve some of it. So if you kind of see these relapses happening over and over again, come to a place of understanding, try and understand what's triggering this and see if they can get support and help in that area also. Yes, yes. Yeah. Thank you so much. It really helps. Yeah. OK. All right. We'll move on to the to the another question. Yes, Divya. Go ahead. Yes. Yeah, I just had a question based on the last class that is there like a gender difference, like how women and men when we try to perceive what they're saying like it's there a difference in how they how they expect, you know, active listening or understanding. I believe women would be more, you know, they expect the counselor to listen and understand. I don't know how it'll be. I'm assuming it's different. And also in active listening, one thing I wanted to clarify is so if they are venting out their issues as a counselor, do you do you just, you know, make a note or you just try to understand or you just or would you ask questions? So so I was trying to understand the, you know, a deeper like an active listening. What are some things that are recommended? OK, so I think what you're basically asking is the skills so that and that's what we are going to be looking on in two, three classes later is listening, responding are all skills in counseling. All right. So if there is there are certain I won't say there are certain specific ABCDs of it, but there is a process of how we move them from a place of presenting their problem to a place of exploration to a place of action and that is the skills that's needed. So that's something we will look into a lot more in detail. So how do we listen or how can we encourage the councillor to talk more is by our listening and by our responding, which we will talk about as we get in. So that's basically the skills in counseling. But I want to address your point on when you're looking at genders. Are they different? So here we are making some generalized comments, right? So generally, when you look at them, there are all exceptions to the rule. So please don't hold me on this because you may be a person who's an exception to that rule that generally women are more emotionally tuned and men are more more analytical in their in their thought processes. OK, so women are more in tune with their emotions than men are. Now, this does not mean that all men and all women are like that. OK, that's why I said there are exceptions to this rule. So that's why when we are talking to a person, we keep in mind the gender of the person, but we do not go with this rule in mind. Why? Because we may be talking to someone who is absolutely we may be talking to a woman who is absolutely analytical and not very emotional. And one way of finding that out is even when they're talking, the the discussions or what they generally when people talk, they're actually telling you or giving you a description about the issue. Right. Very few people will tell you, you know, I feel so broken. I feel so confused. I feel dead inside. I feel lost. People don't communicate like that. And I think partly that is also because of the culture we belong, especially the Indian culture. We do not really surface and bring up emotions as much as maybe another culture does. OK, some cultures are very tight lipped about their emotions. Some cultures may be quite open about what they feel. And, you know, we have many people from different cultures over here. And I'm sure the way that you may see how people respond emotionally are very different in your culture as against another culture. So in our culture, especially and I'm speaking very contextually to the Indian culture is that in an Indian culture, women may be a lot more open to bring about these these discussions, whereas men are more covered and more suppressed about their emotions. Now, what does this mean in counselling? You need to remember that a lot of events and issues underlying a lot of events and issues is a whole. What do I say, bag or well of emotions that stuck with it? OK, and if as a counsellor, I'm only going to deal with the surface and not going to get in. I'm doing extreme disservice to the person because a lot of the things that happen to us, our behavioral issues have roots in the way that we respond emotionally. And so the skill of a counsellor is to come to the root of where are you at your emotions? If you looked at what we spoke about last time, we said that five areas of functioning unless and until we are able to tap into the emotions of the person, they may not understand, they are not in a place of understanding why they are responding the way that they respond. Right? OK, I responded, you know, my wife said this and I responded that way. Why did you respond that way? I was angry. But to really get into the depth of the anger is where is where we are called as a counsellor to do to move into that place of emotions. So when a person is talking to you and discussing some, you know, their peripheral issue, so like I said, so women are easier because you could say you maybe generally what you will ask is if you haven't if you are not picking up what they're feeling, you say, you know, I'm not really able to judge how you're feeling in this. What are you going through when you're telling me all of this? Can you tell me what you're feeling? So what am I doing? I'm I'm asking them a question beyond the the the surface of the situation. I'm asking them how are how are they feeling about that? So they will say, I feel lost, I feel broken, all of that, right? Now, then there can be times that people skirt that or they may not know that that, you know, they can voice out that emotion. They'll say, no, you know, this my my wife was like this, she always does this. And, you know, this is the problem. This is her problem. Now, she's they've gone back to that same problem. They've gone back to the place of, you know, how can I change my wife or how can I figure that out rather than when you've actually asked the question about what they're feeling? So it is important to draw that whether it is a male or whether it is a female. Like I said, women may be more willing to bring that out in the open, but men may not. And that's why you may need to stick longer with people if they're not able to come to that place of emotional awareness, stick longer till they are in a place of really coming to understand that this is where they're feeling or this is what they're feeling or this is where they are at. Yes, I feel angry. Yes, I feel sad. Yes, I am confused, you know, so to stick on to that because that's extremely important when we're counselling. Remember, it's not only a behavioral issue. Every issue that comes is not just behavioral. There are emotions that are there that stuck with it. And when you begin to touch that point, you know, you will you will soon be able to touch the point of the spiritual need. They will say, I feel lost. I feel lost in this relationship. So maybe, you know, when you respond, you'll say, you know, it must be hard to feel that way. It must be hard to feel abandoned in this relationship, isn't it? And then they may go to say, yes, I don't feel any love at all. You've got that spiritual need. You've got the fact that, you know, they feel a lack of love. They do not feel love, and then they are looking for it, maybe by fighting and by, you know, by walking out of the house because they want that person to reach them back. So, you know, so until and unless you're able to tap in to these places of emotions, you may not be able to tap into the real critical need of them feeling love or feeling secure or feeling purpose. So that's why it's important to come to that place of getting them and verbalize it, bring it out, even if it takes time. All right. So, yes, men and women respond differently, but nevertheless, everyone has an essence of emotional part in them. And that's what we need to tap into. OK, I know that is a long answer for a very small question. Divya. Thank you. It really helps. And I was also reminded of one of my friends who would ask me, like, what were you thinking that time? If I if I don't share something, right? So she would ask me, are you thinking something else in your mind that you did that? Yeah. So we are actually I can relate very well to. Yeah. So that's that's the rational part of it. That's the thought part of it. We said five, right? It's physical, emotional, rational. So what were you thinking is another aspect? You know, when when this happened, what were you thinking or what were you feeling? Right? So, yeah, so that's what it is. Good. All right. All right. So we will move into chapter four. I may not be able to complete the entire chapter, but nevertheless, we will we will try and do as best as possible and do the rest in the coming week. OK, so I'm going back to the same question. Remember our Susan's example? All right. And I think I'd asked you all to write down what you know, whether your responses what you thought your responses were. OK. So there were certain rating of responses that we did. You know, what is effective? What is somewhat effective? What is what is ineffective? And these are certain responses that you will generally see. OK. And I think this kind of brings about some of the things that you wrote about. So let's just look at this quickly. OK. So the common responses, the first one is what has made you feel this way? All right. Now, this is generally an ineffective response because you are questioning the feeling of the person. You're questioning that Susan is feeling the way that she's feeling. All right. So this could be an ineffective response. The next response is why do you quarrel like that? You must be patient with him and love him. This is an ineffective response because what are you doing? You have not empathized. Whatever Susan does, quarrelling is part two. We will come to that later. We need to get to the part of empathizing. And by saying you must be patient with him and love him, you have not you have been judgmental in thinking that she's not patient and she doesn't love him. You you've gone 10 steps ahead and thinking that, you know, she doesn't love or being patient or is patient with it. So that's not an effective response. Tell me were you really in love when you got married? OK. Now, this is sadly ineffective because you're questioning her ability of her choice. OK. And that could probably just shut her down. Fourth one, maybe you could try other ways like making favorite dish to please him. This again is ineffective because you've gotten to an advice mode. OK. Fifth one, you're saying that your marriage is not going well and your relationship with your husband is deteriorated. He does not seem to appreciate anything you do. You're doing the best you know, but without success and satisfying him. Now, this is somewhat effective. Why? Because you have only paraphrased what she has said. You've only paraphrased. If you look at it, there are no emotional experiences that's come out here or you've not deducted an emotional experience. Look at the sixth one. You remember the principle of empathy? I mean, the formula of empathy, you feel dash because dash. So here it is. You feel hurt because your husband is disappointed in you. Or you can see you feel hurt or you feel confused because you're not able to figure out how to handle this. So it can be anyways, but this is the most effective response of showing that you have empathized. OK. Now, why is this? Sorry. It's like they're not moving. Yeah. OK. Now, what are you doing when you're actually trying to help your counselling? So what are you? What are what are your core? Pointers is your you need to bring about you as a counsellor. You want to bring about some change in the counselling one through your relationship. And we spoke about that in the last class. That's empathy, unconditional positive regard in your genuineness. So that's what you are attempting to do. And when you're displaying these attitudes, you are moving your counselling in a certain process of learning. OK. And this process of learning is what we call the EUA. Or in the slide, you will see it as exploration, understanding, action. OK. Now, this we are going to be looking at two classes later. So these are the stages in counselling. You're moving your counselling into a learning process or learning stages. So your attitudes that you are bringing will facilitate these different stages in your counselling. So what are these stages broadly exploration? When you are bringing them to a stage of exploration, you are finding out what is going wrong. You're asking Susan, Susan, tell me what's happening in in your world? What's going on? What are you feeling? What have you been thinking? What have your choices been? So this exploration can take time. It can be back and forth. You may explore a certain idea and you may work on something. And when you've worked halfway, you forget you begin and you explore something else. Like, for example, you've explored with your with Susan that her marriage is not going well, that she feels very lost in the relationship. She doesn't know what to do. And so you build her understanding that I must figure out what I want to do with it. You probably understood that. Now, while you are doing this, you're probably exploring another part. And she says she may say that I feel the same way. Even at work. So you have found another place of issue that she's coming with. So this this stage of exploration, understanding, action can happen in pockets or it can happen as a whole. But nevertheless, what you're attempting to do is to do your attitude through the way that you respond to your counselling. You're bringing them to a place of exploring what their problem is. Now, this exploration just does not mean the surface issues of the problem. It means your feelings. It means your thoughts, OK, the person's thoughts, what they've been feeling in it, how they've been thinking about the problem. Once you have explored, you have got them to a place of understanding. They begin to draw insights into their problem and they begin to bring about certain goals. So they understand. Maybe Susan over here understands that I may have very negative emotions towards my husband. This is probably something she understands. I'm just I'm just giving you an example. I I respond very negatively to my husband. I think about him. This is the way I think he doesn't love me. I think he he's trying to control me. So so she begins to understand that the work she needs to do is changing the way she thinks about her husband. OK. It may not be a problem with the husband at all. It may be in the way that she thinks about the husband or in another scenario. She may understand that maybe the communication between them isn't good enough. So she understands that I need to help myself communicate better or work with my husband to improve our communication. That may be another understanding. And that understanding is what leads to an action. That is, you work on certain strategies for change. So you're what are you doing through these attitudes and the skills you build? You are moving the counseling through these three stages, through the stage of exploration about what the problem is through a place of understanding as to how the person is contributing to the problem and to a place of personal action. What kind of strategies that they can build? Now, how does the counselor begin this process of exploration, understanding, action? It is by entering into the frame of reference of the counseling. OK. When and that's what we are going to look at today. What do we mean by entering into the frame of reference of the counseling? So entering into the frame of reference, the frame of reference is to see the world or to see the problem the way the same way in which the counseling sees it. That's what frame of references. That is, you're moving away from the way you see the problem, getting out from there and moving it into the place from the way they see it. OK, so it is like this getting inside their skin, walking in their shoes, seeing through their eyes, feeling from their heart. So what does that mean? You have got out of the sorry, you have got out of the of that very, very place from where you are and entering into their references. OK, now there can be different kinds of frame of references. There is an external frame of reference and there can be an internal frame of reference. What is an external frame of reference is like, for example, now Divya is here, right? I have a certain view of Divya. Right? The way that I see Divya or the way that Divya sees me, that's an external frame of reference. That is, I am using my own ideas or my own thoughts or the way I have interacted with Divya maybe for the maybe two, three times. I have a certain view of Divya. It may not be an accurate view, but nevertheless, it is a frame of reference. I have an external frame of reference. That is my view of you or your view of me. Right? That's called an external frame of reference. What is an internal frame of reference is the way that I see myself and the way that Divya sees herself is an internal frame of reference. Right? So what I see of myself is very personal to me and what Divya sees of herself is very personal to me. But what do you do in counseling? In counseling, what you're doing is you are getting away from your own external frame of reference and moving inside. So you are taking yourself away from your own, my own understanding of Divya and I'm going to enter into her view by hearing her, by hearing her speak. So what I'm saying is I am beginning to understand your view of yourself. So in counseling, what you're doing is or however I respond, I'm saying, OK, Divya, I understand you in the way that through your internal frame of reference, not through the way that I'm seeing you, but through the way that you're seeing your world or you're seeing your situation. And that's that's what makes counseling extremely affected. OK. Now. Sorry. OK, so when you're looking at a frame of reference, I'd like you to remember this. So there are two C's you can see here. The big C is just to just to differentiate it. The big C is the counselor and the small C is the counselor or the or any other way. OK. I mean, not that someone is bigger than the other. It's just so that to depict it, I've just placed it here. So what do you mean by frame of reference? Frame of reference is now, for example, I've lived 40 plus years and I've lived in a particular culture. I've had a certain upbringing. I've had a certain environment that I've lived in. I've had a certain education. I've had some experience. I have my own expectations. This becomes my frame of reference. OK. Now, similarly, my counseling has a different set of a frame of reference. Their culture, their environment, their experiences, their upbringing, their life is very different from mine. OK. And when I am talking to somebody, I am talking to them from my frame of reference. OK. But what does it need in counseling? I am keeping this aside and I want to enter into the frame of reference of the counseling because their culture, their upbringing, their situations, their life experiences, their expectations are very different from mine. So I don't want to be helping them from my frame of reference because that's very personal and understanding for me. And my counseling cannot see my frame of reference because it's a very personal thing to me. But what do I need to do is get up from my seat and move into the frame of reference of them. So what does that mean is I want to understand their culture. I want to understand their environment. I want to understand their experience or their emotions or their expectations. I want to see, I want to hear more about it. So I'm it's almost like I am living in their culture, their upbringing, their world. And how can I do that? I can do that only in one of the skills is only if I am open and willing to hear these stories and explore it in such a way that they are able to give me whatever best that they can of it. All right. And so my responses or the way that I respond has to stimulate that for them. Right. So moving from my frame of reference to their frame of reference is what is absolutely key. But now I think you have picked up and understand what do you mean by by this frame of reference? OK. Now, in a counselling relationship, remember, we spoke about certain irrelevant responses. OK. Now, if you see, there is the the counsellor as well as the client, OK, or the counsellor, OK, here, when you're looking at a frame of reference and if let's suppose Mary, I'm talking about Mary Susan, OK, we're still talking about Susan. I've taken one of the examples she's brought up. Why do you quarrel like that? You must be patient with him and love him. Why does this become an irrelevant response? Because as a counsellor, I've responded it, responded in a way that is keeping my background or my frame of reference in mind. Maybe in my mind, I'm thinking, OK, whenever my husband fights with me, I should not quarrel, I should be patient and love him, just accept him for what he is and do that. Maybe true, but that is my experience or that is my expectation or that is what I have learned in my values. But that needn't exactly be the way that the client sees it. So if I want to really understand my client or my counsellor from the way they're seeing it, I need to get into their frame of reference. So if I respond like this, why do you quarrel like that? Or, you know, you should be nice to him or how can you divorce him? This is not right. Or, you know, you should be you shouldn't even be thinking like that. It is all going from my frame of reference. All right. And it is a running parallely to my counsellor and it is not helping my counsellor. Is this is this clear? Are you all are you all with me? Because I need you all to understand and and get this well enough. Is this clear before I move on? Yes, it's clear. OK, right. I'm taking Jeffy Ners. Yes, says everybody's yes. Can I have a thumbs up to know that people are around? OK, thank you a little bit. All right. OK. All right. So. So what what do you do in? So how how do you make it irrelevant? Now, a relevant response is when so the counsellor here, you can see the counsellor is entering into the frame of reference. And how does that happen? The response should generally pinpoint the feeling and the reason for that feeling. So if you look at that example, you feel hurt because your husband is disappointed in you or another you feel confused because because you're not able to gauge what is your what is your husband's responses to you, whatever. Right. What you're doing is you're listening. You have guessed a feeling. You are communicating this and you are checking that understanding. That's what entering into the frame of references. That means you have taken off your shoes, gone into being Susan yourself and you're saying, OK, if I was Susan, what would I what would I feel? OK, maybe she feels hurt. She feels confused. She feels abandoned. And what you're doing is you're listening. You're guessing the feeling you're communicating. Now, remember, you may not be accurate and that's OK. You may think that she is fed up. You so you may say, OK, you feel really fed up and and because your husband, you know, because you're feeling this way. She's saying, no, no, no, I'm not fed up. I'm just hurt. So what is she? What have you given her an opportunity to do? You've given her an opportunity to explore what the real emotion is. And she says, no, I'm not I'm not fed up. I'm not I'm just so angry and I'm just so hurt about this. So she may correct you and say, no, this is not what it is. This is what it is. And that's, in fact, enhanced your understanding a lot more and her understanding as well. So when you listen, you begin to guess, you begin to infer a certain feeling, you communicate that by saying, hey, this is what you're feeling, isn't it? And when you're checking that understanding is when you have entered into her frame of reference, and that's when it becomes a relevant response. OK. OK, and what happens after that? So you have done this, right? So you have entered into their frame of reference. Now, how do you move the counseling into the next step? So look at the look at the the dialogue that's there. OK, so the first one was you feel frustrated because you can't find what is about you that displeases your husband. You see now, through the interaction, this is what has come about that she feels frustrated. Because why is she feeling frustrated? She doesn't know what it is that displeases her husband. And you see that she's saying, yes, exactly. And the councillor goes to say, so you would like to find out what it is about that displeases him. And the councillor is giving us a councillor is giving a suggestion, a helpful way, maybe to explore all areas of your personality in relation to him. So do you see that the councillor by just responding to a feeling has got the councillor to know that, yes, there is something about me that's displeasing him, but I don't know what. So the councillor says, OK, let's explore and let's she's understood that. And she's saying, OK, I want to figure this out. I want to get into my next phase of action and begin to understand a little bit about my personality to see what really displeases him. So then she begins to be open to look into those places of her personality, which may be, let's say, it may be the way she communicates or the way that she the tone of her voice or the way that she seems interested in some some part of his life, it could be anything. But you see that when the councillor has entered into the frame of reference, then the councillor begins to be ready for the next stage, which is taking action into or finding a solution and working towards a problem. So that's why the frame of reference becomes crucial and important in in finding out how they can move from one stage into another stage of of of of the issue. OK, so here are some examples that I would I want to bring up of saying, what are external frame of references of important responses, OK, which are not effective? So maybe when you say he's your husband after all, you know, just bear with him or you say, oh, you poor thing. How are you managing? Remember, this is a sympathetic response, OK, or you're judging her feeling. You're saying you're letting yourself get upset far too easily. Or you're saying you could change all this by feeling differently. Right. So what have you done? You're saying, OK, she's not feeling too she's not feeling OK about it. If she changes her feeling, everything will be OK. Remember, it's the off-rame of reference. If you had a husband who did that to you, that's what probably you would do. But you don't know that's what she's going to do or next one. I think you're doing the right thing by not letting him step on you like that. Now, this is a very, very wrong thing to do when you when and this I've seen specifically, you know, you have maybe in situations where something is not going right and your your councillor will ask you, am I doing the right thing? And you give that wrong statement. Say, yeah, I think you're doing the right thing, you know, just ignore him. Remember, that's not that's not where you're supposed to be. You need to get into the space of them to think if they are doing the right thing or not. All right. Now, what are some internal frame of reference responses like this? You seem really upset with his behavior or you feel annoyed when he doesn't allow you space or you feel upset or disappointed at the way he treats you. You are worried if this goes on, your marriage can be in danger. Now, all of this have bought you to a place of further exploration. Like, for example, the first one, let's say, you seem upset with his behavior. Right. So she may say, let's say over here, she says, yes, I'm extremely upset with his behavior. So maybe the next question in order to explore more, what you would ask is, what are some of the changes that you may need to make? I'm asking Susan this. What are some of the changes that you may need to take to cope with his behavior? Right. So what am I doing? I have not made the husband the problem here. I have got her to look and see what are some of the changes I may need to make to deal with his behavior. So she may say something like, I think first and foremost, I need to talk to him. I need to open up and discuss with him about what is what I'm seeing is upsetting me about his behavior. So do you see she's got into a place of action? Or she may say, I may need to really evaluate in myself to see if there is something in me that triggers his behavior. You've got a second point of action, maybe, or she may say something like the whenever he behaves like this, I think there is something between the two of us that doesn't go well. And whatever, however he interacts, makes me interact. So it's a very cyclical thing. So you've got a third way. So you see that whenever you are and all that I did was I didn't get any advice. I just said, what changes do you need to make in order to cope with his terrible behavior or with his behavior? I've asked him only that, but she's come up with three or four action points that she wants to do. All right. So so getting into this internal frame of reference works because it helps the other person come to a place of understanding a place of action. And that's what you are basically looking at. OK. So here's the second part of what I was just discussing. I've just put in some thoughts over here. So how do you initiate? How can action be initiated? So then you bring up, you seem upset with his behavior and hoping to discuss with him. So that's become an action point or you feel annoyed when he doesn't allow you space and you're looking at ways you can let him understand your need. So you've got got her again to do something. Right. Next one. You feel upset, disappointed the way he treats you. Have you considered talking to him about your feelings? So all of this moves the person into finding ways of coming into an action. OK, so let's do just before we stop. Let's do one or two trials. Are we are we ready to? How would you respond to a situation like this? So you have a you have a counsellor who's coming and says, I'm worried sick, I don't sleep well and I'm afraid for the kids were so short of money and my husband has started to drink again. How will you enter into the frame of reference of this person? So give it to me verbatim. What would you say to the person? You can write, you can type it down. If you if you don't want to if you don't want to bring it up, you can type it down or you can unmute and speak. OK. Please please try. Please please make an attempt because others you will not learn. All right. So and what I'm going to do is on the stream, I'm going to put down a few of these examples for the e-learning students. I've also put down different examples for you. So please respond on that for for those of us online. I'm going to put some of these examples on the stream. So type in your answers and say what would you say that that enters into the frame of reference of the person like, you know, remember, use the formula you feel dash because dash. So would some of you like to try it? Don't worry if you're wrong or if you're if you're off mark, it's perfectly OK. We're learning. So you have all the freedom to make the mistakes. Come on quickly. We have two, three minutes and to wrap up. Come on. Who's the brave heart here? I'll just try. Sure. Go ahead. Go ahead. Try try. Thank you. I can I can maybe paraphrase what she's telling. Like I see that you're worried because you're facing lots of problems at this point in your life, financially, as well as especially with your husband started having started drinking again. I see that you are going through much difficulty at this in this season. Yeah, that's what I could say. Excellent. Perfect. Perfect. OK, so you will have her say, yes, we've just got it right. Yeah, you know what I'm going to. Yeah, that's that's exactly what I'm feeling. Excellent. OK, one more. One more person. Try. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. So I can say, like, OK, thank you so much. OK, let me try. Don't worry. Take your time. Try. No problem. Yeah, I can say I feel the beat. I know that being warm is hard, but I won't appreciate it. You'll be from a worry about your kid. You know, you can. Sorry, can't hear you most. You can hear me now. Yeah, yeah, a little. Yeah, go ahead. Jeffina. Sorry, Jeffina, can't hear you. Could you type it in, please? I think that'll be helpful if you could type it in. OK, Pastor John said, you feel disappointed because of the situation in your family and the behavior from your husband. OK, excellent. OK, so the next one, you said, do you think you can try and take some time to talk to your husband when he's sober? All right, now this, remember, the suggestion hasn't yet come from her. OK, we may need to wait for some time. So before you can give in the suggestion, it's always better when they come to an understanding of themselves. So I would probably say, once I've said this, Pastor John, I would say, you said you feel disappointed because of the situation in the family. So I would ask a question rather than give a suggestion because you're giving a suggestion through a question. You're saying, do you think you can try and talk, take some time to talk? So you could say, what do you think could help for your husband to see your disappointment? OK, so what am I doing? I didn't give her a suggestion. I'm making her think because I need her to think. I need her to explore what she could do. So she, so I would say, what do you think? What do you think you could do in order to get your husband to see your disappointment? So she may say, I don't know. So I may I may still press on, you know, or because she said, I don't know, I will still press on and I will say it can be very hard to not really understand. But if there was some changes that you would want to see in your husband, how would you like that you express that to him? Then she may say, yeah, maybe I haven't tried talking to him or I haven't tried. So OK. So do you think talking would help? Would you like to try that? So what I would want to do is to ensure that I get the suggestion from her. She needs to come to a place because then she's taking onus for it or she may. So I'm going back again. If I were to say, OK, what what changes would you like to make in order to get your husband to see this? Or what would you like to do in order to get your husband to see a disappointment? She may say, I think I should go and talk to his mother. Right. So that's a different thing. She's she said she doesn't want to talk. Maybe he beats her up every time she talks, probably. So she said, OK, maybe I should go and talk to his mother. So, you know, the the more that you're able to bring about your question or counseling is a lot about. Responding to their feelings and asking good questions to help them to generate answers. So we hear that's what I would ask. I'll say, what do you think you could do to help your husband see your disappointment? Because she said because she said, yes, I'm feeling extremely disappointed about all of this. I said, what could you do to get your husband to see your disappointment or you get your family to see your disappointment? Right. So good attempt, excellent attempts. OK, I'm going to put some of these in the stream. And I would like there are 10, nine of us on this. All of you to respond, because the only way that you can pick these skills up is by actually making mistakes. OK, that's the only way that we will be able to learn. So I'm I'm encouraging all of you, even those on the e-learning portal to attempt the practice questions that I put for you all so that, you know, it really helps you to know whether you're entering into the frame of reference. OK, is that a yes? Yes, ma'am. OK, great. OK, thank you. And and I'd like all of you to to respond, because I think it should it will help all of us in turn. OK. I think, Jeffina, oh, yeah, you said, I'm happy that you came and opened it up here. I want to appreciate you for being a strong mother, focusing on your kid's future and loving your husband. Sorry, I'm not able to see this loving your husband. I understand that being a mom is quite a hard job. I can feel your fear. Is there anything more that you would love to share? OK, wonderful. That that's also is excellent. That's that's also good. I think someone else has said something. Rosalind said, I will start by asking her to be calm and not to stress. My window is really short. I can't see and not to stress out. I think that's what you've written and not to stress. And if possible, talk to your husband. OK, so I think I covered that as to how we could do that. Your response to Brother John's response answered mine, too. OK. So internal, yes, internal frame of reference is what is recommended that you have you understand your your your point of view. I am understanding what you think about yourself. OK. Good. I didn't complete what I was supposed to do fully today, but we will take it on for next week. But I'm going to be putting in some examples. Please ensure that you attempt it, all of you. I really would like to see a little bit more of participation in this, because it's all through learning that we do. OK. Would somebody like to close in a word of prayer? Ruby, would you like to please pray? Oh, I think, yeah, Ruby, Ruby or. Oh, Paul, you both, too. Would one, if you'd like to close in prayer, Lyndon, would you like to close in prayer? OK. Yes, Trifina, go ahead, please. You can hear me right now. Yes, now I can hear you. Go ahead. Yeah, OK. Dear Heavenly Father, we come to you under the name of Jesus. Thank you for this day. Thank you for the class that we have. God, we thank you that you're helping us to understand more about the people you created, Lord. God, as we are practicing with help us to grow more in this knowledge of understanding the people. So that we can guide them towards you. We can help them understand that all our satisfaction comes from God. And the people that has helped us to journey through their life just like how you did not when you came down to visit the journey with the people and you showed them the right way and the right things to help us to do that, just like you did. Be with us and guide us in Jesus' name. Thank you all. God be with you. We will meet again next Thursday. God bless. Thank you. Thank you, ma'am. Thank you.