 The call is Pax and Recreation Advice for Blood Reusing Disorder, June 12th, 2023. Let's start with the roll call. And Angel, is it okay? Scott Conwin? Here. Thomas Davis? Here. Paige Lewis? Here. Sam Libby? Libby, would you want us to read it? Nicholas LaBeau? Here. Dan Olson? Here. And Mr. Tim Waters? Yes. Let's come to approval of the agenda ballot. Does anyone have any of the first edits to the agenda? Could we do cover Chris's presentation first since he is kind of traveling back after public movement? So just switch A and B in old business? Yes. Anything else? Did I get an motion to approve the agenda? I move we approve the agenda with old business B before A. My second. All those in favor? Great, Scott, come to your passes. We've got the previous months and minutes. Does anyone have any edits to the previous months and minutes? I have a motion to approve the minutes, please. All right, I have to approve the minutes. I'll second. All those in favor? All those in favor? With that, we will move to public, invited to be heard. I have two folks. Are we going to speak with this? Yes. You'll leave your comments over here. So we can start with Ben Sargent. Hello, my name is Ben Sargent. I live at 744 Atwood Street in Old Ham. And last year, we got together with our families to start a food club. And we were, Mary and I were driving around to... The wife. For our five different farms to buy the food that we wanted. And we thought, okay, it's crazy to have all these people driving around everywhere to buy food. Why don't we get the families that want the food and the farmers that grow the food to coordinate there. We started to, we call it farm to family co-op, particularly with a food club or a food co-op where we don't have a storefront. We just order from the farms once a week. They deliver and we distribute, so we don't store anything. I didn't know that was going to do an ad, but here's. So, anyway, that's basically, so what happened is that it was, we had so many families that wanted local, clean local produce and meat and dairy that we couldn't get all the food that we had more demand than supply, basically, with the local farmers. Because in Boulder County, if you can grow a good-looking organic vegetable, you can already sell it about retail. And so what we thought was, well, why don't we start growing? And since we said that, several people offered us land to grow on. And we finally selected one property, which has been under organic cultivation for 10 years. And we are now growing on an actual farm with greenhouse and two hoop housings and dishwater, et cetera, et cetera, in Lafayette. What's that? Yeah, so this land is only about an acre and a half, and it's a good training farm, but it's not really what we need. And so, while all of this has been going on that I just explained, we've also seen a good land that was once farming, even if it hasn't been farmed recently, being developed in Longmont. And so we would like to propose that we don't take land out of being open space to make developments. So I don't know if anybody here is involved in that zoning and repurposing land to be developed on, but traditionally all of this land was farmland. And there's still a lot of just really amazing farmland in Longmont, but it's disappearing into developments. So who can we talk to about how can we get involved? We have a lot of families behind us. We have not just in Longmont, but we have members in Boulder, Lafayette, Bertha, and Lafayette now. And so it's more than just Longmont, but what we're in Longmont and sort of the core operations in Longmont, I'd rather be driving to a 10 minutes to a farm in Longmont than 30 minutes to a farm in Lafayette. So I know that there's been problems in the past with small parcels going to, you know, vegetable farming and the instability of that compared to hay farming. But I'd still like to get involved in who do we talk to and how can we come up with a plan to promote the idea of the concept of farming as something that's still important to Longmont and still important to the people who come to Longmont to live. And still, when you decide to move to Longmont, it's, you know, it's not because of the mall, because you have all this access to farms and the open space. So who do we think it's probably, I mean, it's not exactly under the purview of this board. Unless it was particularly open space. Correct. Yeah, it really would be for the board here and for our speaker too. I'd be happy to have David Bell in the director of parks and resources. Yeah, I saw you present it also. Daniel Levine is our new open space manager and working with me on how we're looking at our open space program. We do have an agricultural component to that. A lot of that is really large historical agricultural land that meets the water needs, the irrigation needs. And so the pieces make hard to do small market farming on those properties. And what we need to look at is kind of like we mentioned the zoning within the area that we have our development. Because open space is not acquired properties within the development area of Longmont. So we don't really compete head-to-head with those areas that we are set aside for primary development or primary employment. So we do have some internal conversations about what you touched on earlier. I'd be happy to talk with you and Daniel and I could spend some time talking about the work you're doing here. My past work, I've worked with a lot of small local farmers for over a decade. We listen to them on the county-owned estate properties. Thank you. And David? David Bell. Thank you, David. And then could I add, we're presenting an open space at City Council on the 20th of June. So you certainly could come here in Longmont. You could come and speak during public invited to be here at that time as well. Okay. Thank you. Daniel, correct me if I'm wrong, but once it becomes open space, it never gets developed. Isn't that correct? Well, it depends on the terms. For instance, the conservation easement, if it's written in perpetuity, then that's in perpetuity. Some of the things we have going on right now, and this doesn't compromise the open space, but we have some of our tenants are affordable housing tenants on our city open spaces. So they're still open spaces, but we're working on creative solutions. Okay, thanks. Things that are going on. Mary? Well, I'm here and I signed up. I set up the City Sustainability Advisory Board and at the meeting where my name is Mary, but I'm also a historical town in the rambling food forest that we built that the neighbors never hate because it's messy. But we love it here in Monmont. And I sit on the SAV and I've been increasingly concerned in the four years I've been here that that board is very, very much focused on what I consider the top-down technocratic solutions to sustainability issues. And it doesn't seem to be interested at all in planting trees and building soil health and doing the things that truly capture carbon and that are truly measurable. They just want to focus on electrification and densification, which is angering very many residents who would move here for the open spaces for the fact that where it is worth farming community and so forth. So I would, if you look at the open form while we spoke, which was May 30th, there were four council members, including Joan, who expressed interest in having cooperation across boards to bring in some of these life-based approaches to sustainability. And I suggested that we bring in as much opportunity for people to farm locally, you know, putting in food in the parks. A lot of cities have done this. Maybe cities that don't have quite the wildlands interface issues that we have, but, you know, fruit trees, fruit bushes, having more opportunities in zoning to bring in community farms and such. And so I would just like to ask this board if there's any interest in looking at the leases and seeing if there's a different way to use them to open them up for local farmers. There's a great call for more land. So lots of folks would like to be regenerative and put animals on the edge and so forth. So that's it. Hey. Sorry, I'm late. You good? Yeah. Hey everyone. I noticed that you all have plans to new trees around the city. I appreciate that very much. I noticed that you're all doing updates on the master plans of the parks in the open space. And you may combine those into one master plan. And building on what Mary was saying, I think now's the perfect time to include your general land management of essential urbanizing physical and pillar master plans. I think you're already doing some of that work. I'll be done with my management, but you brought together the stronger focus. You go back to climate action recommendations of 2020. And you look at this committee's assessment of that. You all said that it lacked enough emphasis on making decisions. At my rate was the same. One way to address that would be to include the general management as what was for your focus in master plan and to go out to vote throughout through the working program projects of the departments. That's what I wanted to say. Thank you. We will move on to open business starting with an update on the master plan. Good evening, everyone. Thank you for helping me up on that. I hope you know that too long and easy, but I'll make this quite brief. I think this is a really great opportunity in our process, and I do recognize a few of you folks are using open house. To present sort of our status report on the recommendations that we started studying to this board. Obviously, this is a great point for us to get feedback, comments, discussions as we start getting the process of developing recommendations to take over the council to potentially bring this opportunity to council. So to now let's go through a quick summary of the process. We're going to learn to date. And certainly go through some of the feedback we've been giving, which will be in the middle of the process in that feedback. So this is great to share what we're hearing. We'll present some of the program opportunities and then open it up with your questions and comments and help guide the rest of this process. Really, this is a very straightforward recommendation feasibility study. We're looking to understand the needs and expectations of the long-run community and one of the communities who built the reparation facility very early on and sort of trend in Colorado and have taken the benefit of that. And so this is an opportunity to understand the needs of this community, which are growing, which are moving forward, and make sure that we continue to set a standard in the long run for quality life. And residence expectations of reparations. So the goal of this is to bring forward something that's tangible, that's actionable and truly represents the vision of recreation in this community. A little bit of background. And again, feel free to interrupt me if there's any pressing questions that I want to get too long on any of these topics, but I'm going to have to get a little deeper. The background on this project or this process obviously dates back several years. There was a recent bond referendum in 2019 for an ice and aquatic facility that was unsuccessful in that 2019 election. But much of I think the demand or need within the community I think is expressed by residents is a little bit broader than swimming in ice. It felt like the feedback that was being from that effort sort of suggested that there was a broader need for recreation within the community that wasn't quite so focused on those particular events. So that's something we've taken forward to understand some kind of a barconist process. There's also a parallel process, and I'm guessing many of you are familiar with it, so I apologize if I go into more detail. But the YECA is also proposing a potential facility at Centennial Park that would include a significant aquatic and be a competitive aquatic community, potentially a sea of ice as well as other recreational components in some of the local housing. We met with the YECA last week and had a discussion about the goals of that project. I think working with recreation staff, their intent is to be complementary to programming and find ways in which that programming would synergize with what the city is offering. So it's not a standalone sort of competitive facility, but rather a complementarity. And so in April 25th Council of General Session, there was support for moving forward with this direction of the feasibility study and staff directed to continue those conversations with the YECA and the YECA program pieces together. So that's a bit of the background. We're sort of here in the timeline. We held an open house last Wednesday, the 7th. There was some concern that the nugget scheme affected the tenants and, of course, my presentation dilemma is also going to be a little bit late to the game, unfortunately. So we're going to take a second pass at this this Wednesday. We've already started advertising to see if maybe we can gain a little more feedback from another group of attendees. So we're going to do an open house version three to two months from tonight. And really run through the exact same agenda in order to keep everything sort of at the same level. We want to make sure all the information is gathered in a similar fashion. But the point being is we've gone through some market demographic research. We've really begun to understand the community, the drivers, the economic and population realities that allow sort of the potential for additional recreational uses. And that will really drive some of our recommendations. We've begun to develop program options. What you've seen in the open house and some of the folks that were part of that probably saw a little bit more of a sort of high level kind of prioritization exercise. We've begun to tell the program we're going to show some guidance. We started looking at the site after I pre-park and analyzing that. I'd say that's probably one of the places where we've gotten the most public feedback is the location and some of the mitigation measures that would allow that to be a successful location. And then finally, as we start really refining the program, we're going to move into some conceptual planning that we can share. Particularly so that we can put some cost estimates to the project, understand sort of the realities of the program. And use that as an opportunity potentially to communicate that to the public for a potential election. We'll also be running some costs and revenue analysis once we're kind of home. So that's a big piece of our process. So that said, we talked about the location at Drag Creek Park. And really what is a site that's been identified on the 2008 Parks and Recreation Open Space Master Plan as a potential for a public recreation facility? It sits sort of outside of the core of Wama, where you can see the other community assets as I. I'm not going to spell it all out to you all, but I just want to point out that that site location. That site location is something that we're studying now for a good test fit for this facility. And we're programming based on the feedback, based on some of the planning, roughly 90,000 square feet in your recreation, as well as a potential library, which in this plan is looking for able future city use, but could also continue with the branch library. And we've also started looking at different ways that we could organize a site, but this is just sort of a snapshot in time of how that facility might sort of gravitate to what is going to happen. And sort of mess with that existing real site. Probably a good point to stop, are there any questions or comments? I'm going to talk about the program and show you some images and then we'll get into the discussion. But if there's specific comments to the site, there's probably going to be time to chat with us. How subjective is the setting and what we're seeing here? How big of an area is an optional location for it, where some words ending up in this kind of example? This is very conceptual and very malleable, I guess, is the answer. In fact, we're living in two or three solutions that put parking toward the east and push the building a little more west, make a little more linear solution, and we're looking at something that's going to be a little more dense that tries to keep it a little more tight to the open space. So what is generally the area bounded by that dashed one? That's sort of it. It's a whole different side of that. At least at a minimum, you keep the traffic as least as possible so they're not drawn. There's quite so much traffic into that. There is some drainage way. Try to keep that western half of the site moving more focused on it. One thing I'll add just, and we can talk about this more later, but since you've had it up, I feel like the main barrier to this site is traffic and parking. And so I don't think that it's going to be a viable site until people can understand how that's going to be addressed, because right now there's kind of one way in, one way out. It's narrow, even if you put the parking there, it's still going to be a bit of a cluster in the entrance. So, and I'm sure you're very aware of that. That's the thing that I hear that it's hard to overcome in terms of a barrier to this site. And I actually like this site. I think it's a good place, but that's the one thing that, you know, I think this has to be addressed before this goes about. Yeah, no, I'm very sensitive to that. And so I would say, I think there's a macro traffic question that relates to streets and schools and time of day, all of those issues that really can avoid in this part of the neighborhood. And there's sort of a micro approach to this, which I think is probably warranting a pretty good traffic analysis, probably not something that you would embark on at a feasibility stage, just simply because it's a lot of money to invest if this project doesn't pass election. But I would say, I think given the future turf fields, the fact that you're building a facility that's probably going to drive 1,000 visitors a day, 200 and 240 parking spaces is probably the sweet spot for parking. We want to understand, first of all, how to best sort of quell that traffic and parking, how to best locate it. Is it one large lot or is it a series of smaller lots? As I said, I really think this plan really warrants the bulk of the parking on the eastern most side of the site. I love to not part of as much people. But again, given the uses, there's probably some comparable uses knowing that fields are busy with them, even as well as the recreation center. So it's not like it's a complementary use to the schools, for instance. So I think a detailed traffic analysis is critical to the site. Critical to its success. I think it's a beautiful property, but you're right, that it becomes a traffic business and that's the main thing. I think it's the core issue of the whole project. And we've been told by FIRE that it has to have two entries, two entries and two exits. Four? No. It's got to have two ways in and out. Yeah, okay, thanks. Like the existing center does. So to that point, we'll be revising this site concept to really show how the parking you can deal with at least at a conceptual level. And it might require some traffic mitigation, maybe some additional turnaround or other things that would prevent some of that to prevent community traffic. And that's what we'll say. Are there any other questions or comments you would like to say? Yes, I'll just say now that I appreciate that you look like you're starting to integrate some of those surrounding habitat and building some connectivity between that sort of indoor outdoor space, which was the other primary thing that we did with this location. You know, I do think it's nice to the extent possible to maintain as much of a natural area in front of that transition. So I'd like to see some of the facts starting to get sort of integrated. Yes, it's a tough balancing act when you think about locating pretty significantly the site building on what's right now for an open space property. Do you feel that hybrid dense and try to leave more property or do you try to take it and sort of flatten it out and sort of hunker it into the land and make it less conspicuous? So that's a question. For the record, it is not open space property. That's under the city. I keep saying that that's a whole family property. My mistake, I got my audience. This is not a light person. Thanks. So this undeveloped piece of property waiting on purpose is hopefully when you design it. That's how the room can start for you. I didn't even realize my mistake. So again, some of the summary input, and I'll just go through this. There's a lot of content. We actually have an online survey and there's actually a QR code. So that's in the process right now. We received a little over 150 inputs in the last few weeks since it's been live. We're going to leave it alive for a few weeks to make sure we can maximize the input. But up until this point, we've conducted one public informational open house in April from April. That included some polling questions and then to view the questions, a little build a center activity. We've summarized and we'll show you some feedback. And then there was a pretty good question and answer session. It was a hybrid meeting between in-person and virtual. And so there was a little bit of a challenge between getting sort of a comparable question. We were able to get vision back from both in-person and virtual session. And then last week, we also held another open house. And that was really more than informational comment session. We had stations talking about site program pools and sort of design questions. And so this is just an opportunity to give Joe expression. We're trying to create any type of polling as much as just the information and discussion about some of those topics. And so I think we've been able to really kind of fill in a lot of the color commentary to the more sort of dry survey questions. Understanding some of the discussion. And again, a lot of the discussion surrounded site issues, some of the programming issues. And so we're sort of taking all of that in summarizing it. Some of the activities that were expressed in some of the mental polling in that first. That first open house focused on swimming, exercise, fitness, things you might expect. Basketball, yoga, therapy, pool, e-water aerobics. There's a pretty passionate group that continues to stress e-water aerobics. They're very passionate about tennis, child sitting, gym. And then there's some others that sort of fell maybe outside of that initial kind of core group that we also want to consider. So this just gave us some general feedback about some of the preferences. And we'll compare this to the survey content and integrate these preferences into that. But it shows you some of that. Likewise, we had a similar tabulation about built-in center exercise and unfortunately aligned. These were more specific where we actually gave people selections rather than previous, which was sort of an open comment. I think they're everybody here. Yeah. Great. We've got all that tabulated. And we'll continue to tabulate those as we use those in different groups. And again, focus on fitness. I think they exist in Quail Road. Recreation center is pretty limited in fitness space. So that's not surprising. Obviously recreational water is a big demand. Very popular busy pool at the Longhorn Rec Center. And they're walking, jogging, another high priority lap swimming. And then you should kind of get down the list with exercise, multi-use classrooms, child setting, amazing in space. And then youth senior activities. So that multi-generational aspect to the facility. And your playground was something that got quite a bit of interest. And then a potential teaching cave nutrition. I used to always throw lambs right on that kind of middle cluster. So that's a question mark that I'm beginning with. Was the online? Yes. The yellow was the in person. So it starts really setting up, in our minds, a pretty clear prioritization of some of the most popular amenities that we're going to be considering for the program. We also asked this question. The new survey fixed this question a little bit better. Instead of answering a number, it says less important, more important. So I think it'll be a lot clearer and sort of hit a thousandth street now. But we did ask residents, how important is this? And even though there was some confusion around the question format, it still shows significant support, at least between those people that participated. So that said, we've taken a lot of this information. We sort of collected that or culminated that into a program that we began to do on studying. In the open house, we were showing two. And the idea there was to really get people to sort of comment on the activities, what's most important. As well as understand the amount of aquatics that we build sort of weighs the budget toward the amount of other less expensive spaces that we build. So we're really just asking people to help prioritize. But this program is the one that we've been digging a little deeper into that really kind of follows that prioritization. And we've included through the current survey, the open houses and all the feedback that we've gained. And it shows you roughly 91,000 square foot facility. It includes all of those priority facilities, between the aquatics, gymnasium space, fitness space, general community space, like the senior entity area and youth activity center. And really, this is just a diagram that it really kind of gives you a sense of the scale of the opportunity that you think is potentially out there for this century. That's also the one there? No, that's what I meant. This is just a program that I would expect that it's a multi-level facility. It's just our clearest way of showing all the activities in one day. Are there any questions to point the stop and talk about the program for a little bit and just recognize some of the priorities? This is a good time for our partners to share their feedback on this. Absolutely. The rest of this is just some pictures. Is that yours? Is the diagram important to this? It's pretty close. Yeah. How does the library annex factor into this? Because so many spaces could be library annex spaces, meaning those spaces, that sort of thing, the senior entity area. Our past was not to conduct feasibility on the library components. We were asked to integrate the library at least at the site planning level and sort of a general planning discussion. And so when we start developing concepts around this program, we will show how the library would integrate into that. I guess we had a lot of discussions about this, and there's a couple of different ways that we could do that. So I guess I look to you to tell us how much or how little do you want to see integrated into this feasibility study. We're able to kind of believe in one. There's sort of different models for that. There's an integrated model where library and recreation services sort of share common uses and have common check-in and common integration. And there's more of a separated model. You come into a lobby, you go left, you go right to the library, and you have to share a lobby space and bathrooms. And so I'd be curious to hear from you all how much or little do you want to see that integration. My knee-jerk reaction is that we're in the latter, in terms of organization, in terms of how you check-in. But I would like to see what we're not going to use of facilities, because there may be different times of day uses that want to dictate use of the space versus another one. But it's not sitting there, we're on double the space needs. I mean, I think you can get on the real big question, is why would you build multiple meeting rooms, multiple gathering spaces and lounge spaces? Why would you have a children's reading room on one side of the wall and a child's sitting there, and the other one would have immigration. So to the extent that it would be nice if you sort of consolidate some of the services, the community-based services, but on the other hand, library districts and rec districts don't always sync up that way. This is our project, this is your project. So I think to answer the question, I'd like to see as much integration as we can logically push forward and make sense of us. Is there a demand for activity centers and meeting rooms and catering and kitchen and senior activities at our current rec center? When I think of a rec center, I think more like what we have, which is fitness equipment and a pool and a trap and gyms. And I'm surprised that we're devoting a lot of space and community space. Well, senior activity is really about recreation programs specific to seniors. We really don't have a large meeting space that is public in Monmont anymore. And one of the things that we believe is- Large is large. Those three put together in the museum aren't big enough? But they're not available enough. That's the issue with all the programming that they're doing. So we're trying to find space for the public as well as programming space. And they can be interchangeable, but meeting spaces or activities like big parties, receptions, that sort of thing would be what would go into that multi-purpose. How should we call this a community center rather than a recreation center? We did a lousy job naming last time, so I'm not the best person to help with this name. Well, I mean a lot of those things weren't on that top of that list, so people aren't. This is not on that list. Well, but they're on this square footage. Yeah, no, exactly. Well, that doesn't seem like my next question. If you are, how do these things get into there? Well, some of them were. Some were. Let me just, since you're on that topic, I'll just add that that's a concern for me as well. Is it feels like, I mean I know some of these are associated with recreation, but this feels like almost more than half of a facility is a non-recreation space. So I would just ask that we continue to evaluate what really is necessary for other recreation features that we can add in here while still having some public community space. Help me understand what would be recreation. Classroom, classroom, teaching kitchen, multi-purpose meeting. Why did they have the wrong name? That's where we would do all of our programs in there. Well, yoga, they're in the studio, but any of our general leisure programming, any type of athletic coaches meetings, any type of trainings for staff would all occur in those spaces which we really don't have available right now. We have one meeting space at the Rec Center, which generally on the weekends is tied up with birthday parties the entire time. We look at those as programming spaces. That's how we look at those. To fill up the balance between, there is a community, we know this, we know this just from our constant experience. There is a community we need to work, some older rooms, or for all sorts of activities. But we look at those as program spaces. Would you like to see them call something different? I'd like to see it in the pool. Even Tom here, you taught me I still don't really understand. I mean that just seems like open room space to me, which I can see value, and I don't know how much we need for that. Where else are we going to do our programming now? But I don't know what you're mean by programming. General leisure, sewing, basket weaving, drama. That doesn't go in this other valid issue that we're going to vote on? No, because there's no space at the Rec Center. No, no, no. The theater arts, that doesn't go in there at all. Total recreation. All general leisure anywhere from dance to learning how to basket weaving. That's all. I might have a suggestion that the piece of this that is a big question might be my mind. I would imagine, I mean we've designed and planned and used these abilities, so it's all over the state for that. I would argue that very few would say, I don't have a need for a 600-square-foot classroom program. The piece on this list that I think maybe exceeds that would be that large multiple space. That might be a community for that hall. That's a 2,500-square-foot. That might be the one where you all would have to decide as a board and as a staff to say, you know what? That's one space to man. There's a lot of large community spaces in there. And again, I'm not speaking for anyone. I would say the multi-purpose enrichment classrooms feel like they go directly into your core daily program. We're always looking for those spaces for 15 to 20 people to gather for a class, to learn something. It's that big 3,500-square-foot community meeting hall that you really have to understand. Is that something we need more of in this community? Does that feel more as maybe a compromise in that area? I'm not saying that's a decision to make. I'm just saying help us. I think people talked about classes and those types of uses. They didn't say give us a giant meeting hall necessarily. What was the build-up to 91,000-square-foot? Is that the right size for building in some other way beyond using the popular things in there? I gave you a little bit of a benchmark comparison too of other centers just to help kind of answer that question. And when you start looking at larger centers and communities that I heard were comparable or regional for a long month, this shows you kind of what other communities have. Now, you have the Coel Road Center that's roughly 62,000-square-feet, but you also have a community that's almost double the population. You don't think there are levels? Or in Lafayette? I didn't check Lafayette. I guess it's about 45,000. At least to work their attention on that. I will say that Bison Ridge is probably 200,000. Bison Ridge is 100,000. So, and again, I could certainly add to the list, but I think there was a question of what is 91,000-square-feet look like stacked up against other communities? I would say Loughlin is probably in that one, but it also has a little more of a full sort of senior center where the entire senior lean, but they have a pretty significant quality program. I don't know if this helped answer that question, but where did the 90,000-square-feet come from? It really just came from trying to align those means that we gathered within the various feedback to square footages in which we're certainly happy to adjust and help by that based on the activities that you all think are most important. This is by no means our recommendation. This is our first shot across. It's obviously how does this look? And do you think there are things in there that are too small, too big, not focused on enough? Then we certainly have that conversation. Yeah, I would say I've shared with you guys about the various different general-purpose rooms. The difference to me between a group exercise studio, a classroom, a youth activity center, and a multi-purpose meeting room is somewhat semantic. It is. And I would think, one thing to look at would be designing for flexibility so you could have four or five spaces that could fill any of those needs. I don't think moving tables in and out about a group exercise studio is a feasible and fairer class, but it seems close enough that there's some crossover between them, potentially, for both programming and community. I totally agree with that. That statement pretty much summarizes pretty much the trend of recreation to build flexibility. And I would say there are points in which you get to a point where a space is so multi-use that it becomes that multi-useless like a senior group that says, gosh, the teams ran earlier and they left a mess and we couldn't lock our things up so hard. You'll get to that point where you know the answer. But to the point that are we going to build specialized studios for certain activities, things like climbing walls, kitchens, those are single-purpose spaces that have to support programming. And if they don't, then they'll build them. I thought that this conversation about the kitchen idea being part of the museum or something, like there was a conversation at some point about that being somewhere else. Well, Aaron talked about that. That you'd rather have it at the museum than in the restaurant. Am I sort of hearing feedback, though, that of the spaces that are shown in this program, the ones that are sort of questionable to this group are some of the yellow spaces, some of the multi-purpose meeting-gathering spaces and potentially the kitchen. Those are the ones where there's some question about that. You're hearing two modes, like there's a group that would like to have more blacklings. So it's not just the ones on the side, but what you mean. I think it's helpful to compare it to the size of spaces in the carp rec center. I don't know offhand how big the leader pool is at the rec center. You know what, it's 16,000 square feet. It means not being made. You know what, maybe having to do with yours. That would help people understand what it means by that. If I just went down a list anecdotally, I can tell you that your current rec center is probably much lighter than this on Monkers. It's much lighter than this on Leisure Pool. This Leisure Pool is probably 50% lighter than that. Lap swimming is identical to that 6-way mountain pool. So you're skinny wings. Yeah, that's right. No long arms, butterflies. No therapy pool. 2-corp gymnasium is a 3-corp. 3-corp. Oh, this 3, it's got a smaller 3, so it's a recreational 3-corp. So these would be larger. That's about 4,000 people. You have much more fitness. That's probably a few times. You've said all along that fitness is the best way to show talent. It's almost got to the point. But you can't bounce a balcony that way, right? That's a ball of machines stuck together and young. And then the community space is obviously big within that. But I think it's, I mean, at 63,000, it's working. Obviously, it's 50% bigger. Where did that area end up? Probably it's one of a few states. The other question I had was on the conceptual site, there are significant amenities that are shown outside of the building that I think add to this layout really well. There's a 5,000 square foot external fitness area for classes. That's an awesome asset that should be shown every time And there are significantly different costs impact because there are facilities that still cost money, but not buildings per feet. Other than this year, we're in a climate where our shoulder seasons are beautiful. And if you have indoor-outdoor spaces where you can open doors to outdoor rooms, outdoor patios, which is very much not the case with our site. And frankly, that was kind of the trend back in the 90s. It was these very internalized buildings and now they're becoming the opposite of the externalized. You know, roofed-out workout spaces and community spaces that go into courtyards. It used to be buildings were very compact and very much about the perimeter and now they've broken themselves open and they're very much about those sort of indoor-outdoor spaces. It's got great comments. Yeah, I think I'm concerned with the group here and people in general. A lot of these things that could, and this goes back to my kind of library comment, is there a library one. I think there are some things that are synergistic and get more people from different groups excited about the rec center. But then there's other things where they pick off the 3,500 square foot room which doesn't have a definition for it. People are like, well, I don't want the rec center because they're clearly being too fancy. There's no advocate for it, right? And around screening, they'll be this thing. Yeah, but if it was defined as a need that was going to be used by the library as well as recreation or something like that. So I'm having a flashback. When we built the Longmont Rec Center we purposely cut out the other classrooms because the museum space would be available. Guess how often recreation has ever gotten into the museum to do programs? Never. Because they're using it. I'm just hearing us cutting. If we look at reducing or eliminating those it's an opportunity that we miss. I think what you were saying though is a really good point earlier. You need to market what these are better than just big clubs of empty rooms. People are going to be like, wow, that's really expensive empty rooms. If they're going to think about this they probably haven't thought the plan out well. That's probably why we're at a preliminary stage. The only one is still doing blobs. And the next phase is to take this and build very communicative three-dimensional plans that would show tables and rooms and people working out at the centers and do all the things that... So I think what you're basically doing is helping guide us to the next step and say if you're going to show the space then sell the activity, show people what's going to happen. What is the progress or state of this kind of drawing when we put it up? If and when we... Well first of all to present it to council and second on a ballot. What's it look like this? Well last time it was zero. We had no clue. Well that's since July 19th. So we're going to have a footprint or a quasi-drawing so very different than the last ballot issue. We had those last time. No. We were not allowed to use it. Ah okay. We used to read about two weeks ago. Yes because we're... So just to... Sorry. Let's look at you. So July 11th we're looking at going back to council. Right? I think we had the wrong date. Oh no it's the 11th. I look at it and I'm like oh it's not the 11th. I keep saying 7-11. Yes, 7-11. So we would at least present this information to council and then we'll talk about some of the other ballot initiatives as well. As a setup for council to discuss which things they want to move forward. Because they need to be having those conversations in July to do their two readings to put them on the ballot in August. So when we go in July it is our goal to have drawings that would represent what the $91,000 would possibly look like. That could be used by anyone if they want to be in favor or against the council. It is important legally to do that ahead of August. Yes. I'm not critical but it's important. Have all of you seen the graphics that were produced for the 2019 study that weren't part of the public election? I mean I'd be happier if you were you and take two seconds to pull up all my director to show you what we did. That would give us a great idea of what this means. I just want to add two things before we leave this. One, if it is potential that the library is going to be combined with this I would suggest that you do two like get down to two drawings like this. One that's library and one that's not library just so that people can see a lot. I don't know what I'm going to decide on. And then the other thing is I heard you say maybe arts at the YMCA. Do you know if that's... Is this part of your plans? Yes. I should have said... Because if it's not it's a very good plan. It's not built yet. Chris, the only thing bigger than open space is not talking about eyes. I didn't discern this. Can I ask one more question? You end up three quarters amazing. We talked about how it's a different size and the current... I think it's your current recreation rate. But they're different court sizes. But they're real. There's no space in the 20s. No. So I'll make it. They don't want a three or 74th or short court. They're recreation courts. We're programming these in high school sizes. Yes. There's no space if you have four. If you have one of those... And then half where you're simply... How many pick-up-all courts fit into the report? Because I know that... Do we really crown them in? No. Zero is very much better. Well, that's the common app stuff. You look at the... The amenities less as we go on. You can get started through a whole size court. If you look at the pool area, the rec center now is 16,409. Total. Total. Total is 26. Yes. So it's a little bit larger. Yeah. I'd like to see those renderings. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what we would see. Yeah. I'm happy to show them. I'm very proud of them. So what happened last time was that these weren't available. And then once they were... It was too late because it looked like you were pushing forward. Yeah. Yeah. They were made like this in record. Yeah. Yeah. So they... Everything is used up. We can... In traditions... Correct. And an additional 202 is what we had. The second... Getting new ones. Right. That's the... Yeah. So this is a study that they're doing right now for the City of Fort Collins. Yeah. And this is a diagram that we took to council a little about. This is their 20,000 square foot library connected to the lobby with the gymnasium, leisure pool lap, outdoor spray-round lockers. So this is kind of representative of the type of plan graphic that you might... And this is a little fuzzy because it's linked, but I don't have internet, but... Just to give you an idea how we showed a library planning integrated to a recreation center, plan on some more stuff. But I can go ahead and pull it open to graphics that we did for 10 by... 8 meters by yards. We ran out of glasses, so I'm using a lot of it over here. Yes. And you can do running laps and a flat tire, sort of like this. Okay. So, drawings. So there is an example of the plan drawings that were shown for the ice and the quality facility. So you kind of see the lobby and the locker and the pool. So we're hoping to get similar to this to take forward a council that expresses the program that we just went through. It feels a little more like an actual usable building. You can see people. So hopefully that's kind of headed in the right direction of what you can expect from the next stage in the study. And then my favorite part, which we actually really were disappointed when we showed the full... We did this wonderful memory in the interior space for the ice and the aquatic. I'm sure that's a big final one. I'm sure that's a final one. There's a final one with the long, long logo on the floor and projected white on the scene and all the people and the products and the ice. So at some point though, we'll get to some graphics that express the beauty of this potential project. You can give this to the wives and sort of build one. This is in Alpochris Coker right now. Yeah, I've got your building done. So to give you an idea, yes, we'll be cooked in the kitchen. Yeah, we have an output. We did. That was even cooler, but I don't know if you'll love that. Yeah, there was some additional diagram. We kind of showed how the exterior design built and kind of integrated. We had this kind of cool idea that one would use kind of the water and ice idea. And then there was this sort of chasm that went between the two and kind of played one after the other. Conceptually. Let me see if I can find that exterior. I'm not seeing it. We cut those off pretty quickly. No, I don't think I have other than anything. But we did a really kind of fun exterior. But we did. We produced some really, I think, some pretty expressive graphics that we showed. Yeah, these are some of the conceptual vision ideas of that ice and water concept. But no, I think hopefully we'll get to the point where you get something where you can all kind of re-consensus. This is the right mix of activities. And then we can produce really nice graphics. Is there more presentation or are we interrupting? No, there's about 50 really cool pictures of interiors and recreation spaces if you care to see them. What's the five? That's what we can call that process for us and you and the staff to be ready by July, what did you say, July 11? I mean, we meet by 10th, I guess. And that's it, as far as this board is concerned. So this is our one and only chance? Well, I think 10th, you're done. I think first and foremost it's reacting to that program because once we react to that program then we can start putting together a diagram that integrates that into a plan concept. Now, we all know that whatever goes to an election as far as a plan concept isn't necessarily what we build, it's what we can do with the public. So we're actually concerned that if you want to have this past selection, we won't have time to manipulate that plan. There's certainly opportunity for that, but what we want to do is understand the program, the scale at some point at a cost. What's in there will influence what makes you talk about it? Absolutely. So that's probably the best conversation this evening is maybe not have so much maybe not be so have we really captured the list? And I'm happy if it would be helpful to do maybe a comparison of Cuell Road Center and do have a side-by-side that we could distribute and review if there's particular spaces that you do or do not support within this program plan. That's something we'd like to understand sort of later. I think maybe that diagram is what throw most of us off. Initially I went the multi-purpose room is the same size as the recreational. When we hit the numbers though it's way more representative just this bottom yellow section represented by the yellow and purple sections. Because when you stack the numbers it's 70,000 square meters. This means square feet of recreational space traditional and then 20,000 of that space that you guys missed out on. I wasn't obviously there last time but it sounds like you guys missed out on getting these important meeting spaces as well. I think it does appear to be a lot more of that space when actually traditional recreation is still 70,000 something. That's a good observation and frankly the diagram is not going to do us any favors. We just have this fear of putting it in the opposite problem. To the point I think you framed it perfectly that if we're comfortable with the idea that it's predominantly these recreational spaces maybe the aquatics could be slightly larger there's a big question mark of how many lanes that we show not knowing how many lanes potentially. I think the three-core gym is one that we have a lot of support for. Our professionality act too much gym space. That might be more of a fitness obviously. Trying to augment what you have now being so limited so many communities have been losing their provide and fitness because of the private sector. Do you guys think of having a small exercise studio in large? Like I heard you say it's one of the classrooms but I wonder putting that you know It's just a nice studio that you know could be somewhat flexible, but I do think about like cycle classes and even like a... Well, we do that now. Great. I know. But it's like a freeway. Yeah. I think we could have two multi-purpose studios. That's a good suggestion. All rooms are... I would almost swap some of that. But I think you should put a cluster of spaces and... That's a good decision to make. Yeah. I think we got to 91,000 square feet and I had to kind of get the guy's watch on it to have a solution. You go back to the site plan idea? Yeah, absolutely. And I should point out too, not to get to enough, these are all gross areas. So they're all grossed up to help for storage and circulation and everything else. So it's 91, including all that now. One thing I'm understanding is just... This is really helpful to see how it's fitting into the rest of the site. I think it's an amazing piece of lower case O open space. Because right now, you can see a lot of stuff from there and it's open and very accessible. And I think it's wide open to the rest. What we talked about, if it's a more inward-facing sort of like quellus, it's not very appealing to the access and outdoor space. But to me, it's what it's like. There's an outdoor classroom. There's a garden there. I want as much seating as possible. This would be part of the park. Not a standalone right thing in the park. And I think that's a very compelling way to present it. And I think that when you start thinking about spaces that are sort of internalized, they make sense to sort of anchor. And you've already started looking at this by sort of creating this diagram. So the aquatics sort of aims out of Long's Peak. The community space kind of aims out of Long's Peak. Maybe the fillness. You've actually got the need to fill this on a number level, looking out over the pool so it gets those same views. So the whole idea is to take this plan and kind of get it. So all these spaces capture that western expanse. And then the library probably actually moves the other direction. Not because it doesn't want those views, but because it needs sort of direct parking access and other things. And it might actually, because it's a lower CLL, it might be a nicer neighbor to the residential sense. It can be kind of on your scale as opposed to gyms and pools. So we've really started kind of manipulating the mass and the scale on the site where it's probably more sensitive and frankly it takes advantage of that lower case, open space and views. Is there any other plans or thoughts just not here? Other outdoor programs space? Interesting that you mentioned that. I won't bore you with a lot of pictures of our work, but I will show you. You do a lot of work with heavy timber and wood. A lot of great sustainable stuff, but I was trying to get to the outdoor stuff that we have shown in here. But I think it's kind of... There's a lot of community, you can call it vice and vice, but you're going to be looking at that space. That's not the program we're looking for. Sorry. One of the things we've really considered is how you create a building that's really integrated to the site, integrated to the public realm, integrated to the public space, creating outdoor gathering areas, outdoor rooms, food trucks or other uses that are against the potential to support that type of use. For us, it's how you create the sort of map, other outdoor amenities and activities, not necessarily spread around. Maybe that's an option, but really just trying to find ways that there's an interest to study it from the recreation center to get into a rooftop workout studio, a rooftop pavilion. Just trying to create an outdoor space that feels integrated to the building, feels like those uses become part of the experience. That's kind of our goal, so we start thinking about the concepts. Lots of glass, although I did have a lot of discussion with a lot of bird jets. Cut that too. The first few sticky notes were all about bird problems. You could deal with that. We're doing a live center in Jackson Hole for the... It's right at the cusp of their Elk Middle Preserve and we're doing this film that's sort of a blur, film on the glass that supposedly kind of holds onto that. If you've got a recital, et cetera, you know, 2008 Elk Preserve, you kind of want to look at it. We didn't have windows. I think we could do a lot more flat, but I'm trying to find ways to integrate with that. We know a lot of them. So, I don't mean to take a lot of room on this board. You guys have a lot of important issues to discuss, but I feel like kind of creating this more broad picture of what this potential concept in the center could be to hopefully help more. I wish we had more opportunity. This is sort of a really creative process. How many square feet is that Fort Collins one, so? That one was about 65,000, because it doesn't have a ton of fitness. It's a single-core gym. It's really an aquatic center with a few other things. It's about 65,000. This space outside of the Red Center, is the concept for Dry Creek with this current, would that be programmable, like Roosevelt Park sort of thing, or would we just keep it as an activity center, an activity space? The Elk Preserve. Can you go back to the site? So, if you're looking at the west side of our site, I'm just thinking when we're talking about the community side, community property, the west side of the park, yeah. That would probably stay natural there. Further, so Dry Creek, where it says existing athletic field, directly to the west of that, is phase two, which has got soccer baseball, it's got a water feature with the stream there, and permanent smudging. But between disc golf and building, would it be just more parking? More. If you see the steal of parking, no, I agree, but somehow parking is the best fit. Maybe on the east side, you can slide the buildings west. I mean, the master plan has an alcove pool in that area. Yeah. And that's something, kind of hit on, that that may be time to re-look at it. It's been 15 years, from what Steve said last week, it's around 2026. I know there's a lot of things. There's a lot of parks out there. It's just to the north of that existing athletic field. Yeah, it's kind of natural, but it's long. So one final question. You don't like the idea of a large meeting space or event space? Well, actually, looking at his numbers, it was exactly the same size as the leisure pool. 3,200 square feet. But the picture, it was four times bigger. Yeah. Yes, my fault. I think it's interesting. I think it'd be good to compare it to what other spaces are available. I don't even know them all exhaustively. You know, between dance brand and the Wheatville Museum? No. I think it's a report of that sort of space. There are not a lot of spaces where people do these larger gatherings, and you don't see a lot of support for that. Until you need to do the graduation, you don't care if that's not a space you need. So there's not like a group support of such a thing. We know that those spaces are in fact made. I'm not saying sure or should, but I'm just telling you our experience right now is that those spaces are in fact made. They don't take full rights voters either. Voters float in the quiet. I mean, you're not to think really carefully about how you communicate about that and what you call it. And maybe the idea of is this a recreation in communities? You know, because then you're saying we're intentionally creating community spaces versus this is a recreation center and a culture of open spaces that we don't know what's there. So I think it's like how you communicate about this is going to be really important and think about do you have a constituency that's really going to support that because you don't want it to be a detraction for the big recreation community because they don't understand it and they don't hope for it because they don't see it as recreation. So... One of the things in the last ballot was that we heard a lot of people saying why don't you use red, why don't I vote for this? The community doesn't broaden that. Quite that. There were several comment cards, you know, and we have to assess all of it. There were some comments, not that they were majority, but that did say, you know, please don't forget those other general community uses that this is still a community center. So I think... The question is funny, is it a community recreation center? Answer that question. We can answer the question about hallmarks. Yeah. Sandy? I'm not part of the board. I just wanted to mention that your whole red guy has all those programs that you're talking about what you're putting in there. If I'm in charge of the the factual summary, which I think I am, I would put all those in it. This is what this space is for because your example of basket meeting is 11, but it's probably not but it's always full. That's it. All those ones that are not programming I know that you're not thinking about it because you don't have to guide people, but there are hundreds and hundreds of red classes that would be held in those spaces and we need to make sure that we get granular around what that is. And I think that's important. It's the big community in that hall that feels to me I would be more nebulous than what you said. I find it hard to go to a classroom to program but they're tiny. Those are tiny and they're not expensive. That big of a hall is the space that you really have to want to lead into it or don't. Yeah. There's enough stuff that's going to get thrown into this bond that they'll find a hall for it. Do you know how the EPICS does that message? That's it? Do you know how EPICS does how it's named? How the district gets it? Yeah, how they decided to come up with it. I'm guessing it's our bad arts and something. Yeah. I don't know. It's just in this recreation and community discussion. Whatever you come up with. That sounds like a perfect job for a political action. I would just say I really feel that the classrooms are different than that big community space. They're really different needs. I would give up the meeting space before the classroom. Looking at the drawings you had that you explained were for the four columns, they had an obvious big pool that looked like a pool and then there was this nebulous others. That's the opposite of what we just saw where there was a circle, the Venn diagram kind of shape had names on each of these things and areas that we find out aren't really representative of the actual area. The more accurate drawing might have avoided half of our conversation. I think they call it also just intense so that people don't make it up. They can see themselves and the thing that they care about in the district. The long one you did four years ago had a huge pool and then there was that stuff in between. Which was the rec center. If that's again what you're going to do, things for our group of the discussion we get, we're worried about gyms and pools and fitness space and the other just slides in on the edge. It's whatever this community space is. It's just one of those rooms up in the corner. You don't have to label it as such or put ballroom dancing going on or anything like that. That diagram showed everything from storage to viewing. To this point we're being a little presumptuous. We're stepping a little ahead of our schemes here. Those diagrams are representative of a program that we haven't confirmed yet. We're still waiting for some survey data and open house. I feel like you're seeing a little bit of the work in progress. I will say that it would be helpful if it was a little more proportionate. I think at some point it started out very proportionate. But be aware that once we lock in that we know exactly what we're proposing building. At this point we're still anticipating what the final community needs. Do you expect the city council to have the same discussion? I want more square footage for this than that. Is that what city councils do? We'll probably give them a fairly similar presentation of the process, the feedback, the site concept. The building will have a plan much like I showed you and then we'll probably ask them for that feedback about do you feel like what we've shown you represents the feedback that we communicated. That would be the total. This feels different than the last time that's why I asked. Four years ago in 19 it was very nebulous. We wanted X amount of money and we're going to build a tool. Since the drawings weren't done I don't recall there being a negotiation about how much space each thing should have. I'm just not remembering. Part of the problem with 19 was a lot of that work was done as early as late 15, early 16. I remember that's what we were talking about. We got to do the election for the drawings together. Really the driving force from council at that time was 50 meter pool and the ice. The other things were nice these but weren't really what it was about. Which was a mess. When you go to council they will at that point tell you whether or not the laborers should be here in the concept. At that point it's too late to do more than what Christus represented. It can have a placeholder but we're not going to really get into mingled or non mingled if that makes sense. That would come later on after the election. That's probably problematic. If you have a way because if it's going to be on the ballot as an immigration community center that includes a library then you're going to have the library people voting for that because their thing is in there. I think it matters. It does. What we were just concerned about was trying to communicate something to the public without exploitation. I think our goal our direction our thought was show the library as part of the complex but not get into the leads how much or how little it integrates because that feels like it's too complicated to convey in a general election as opposed to this is the site this is the community rep center this is the library. They still have to decide whether they want to move forward with the library as part of whatever goes to the ballot. They say yes and they want it to be co-located in some way on this site or somewhere else. Possibly Encourage them. My hesitation is there's a lot going on right now. Some of it we can't talk about I'll just leave that there. We're just going to add that what happens if one passes and the other doesn't and so I think what they want to see is what this looks like with I mean I think their preference is that the rep center passes and library passes library annex inside the rep center but that being said library will be a separate question and so you'll have to be ready either way so if library fails and rep center passes then you don't have a library annex on there anymore and so it just needs to be You throw it in one big community building could you do both on the same ballot issue? That's a good question I've asked our legal folks about it and they're concerned about it's log rolling Right, no I've heard all this on your separate page I think if it's a community center then you can put anything you want in there for the community that would be my interpretation Would that allow for a bigger square footage? I guess it is You're going to be limited by dollars in some sense We're looking at 90 plus thousand for the rec center and somewhere between 20 and 30 thousand square feet for a library closer to 20 But yeah council will have to decide if you know the voters want a branch library not a rec center is this still the right place to go challenge is there where a lot of folks want up in northwest Longmont we just don't have the space to do it up there We don't Do you give the sense that and this is something that our study we were trying to hear how we would tease this out or survey it but the sense that some of the site reaction is related to folks that live kind of in and around that part and use it regularly or is it a sentiment that's carried by the other 70 thousand plus residents that's our good question My guess is that people that are most local are quite from that area but I don't have anything But we don't have any Bubble against this site or in favor of another site No, against this site The one that's strange This is good for you to understand the site is the biggest challenge we're hearing about And no site was the biggest challenge Yeah, I can't do that Well, I mean it may be people that are very because I live probably less than a mile from this site and I mean I see challenges, like I said if you don't address the park in and then access then it's not going to work but otherwise I think it's a good site and I would be in favor of it but I don't live right next to it I've heard much reaction My guess goes to that school It's near the school, that's your captive audience too I think I've heard more reaction to the micro issues on the site about wildlife and traffic than I have Why isn't it on the east end of the town or why isn't it on the north end The focus has been the site issues less than the gap analysis of the community And kind of what we've talked about is we need to be prepared to respond how we're going to respond to those issues So are you guys going to this minute is probably not a question for you Chris, but I mean I feel like it's going to, part of my questions are because I'm really afraid of what happens if this doesn't pass and the community continues to not have access to a resource that we've desperately needed for a long time Is the city council thinking about like maybe I have to figure out another way to think about the you know the quality of life and value of the community is going to I think be impacted if we can't provide these kinds of facilities I would agree but I don't know that if there were other ways to finance a rec center we'd be working in that direction Well they find other ways to finance other things I'm sorry? They find other ways to finance other things I mean maybe they're a part of the partnerships that are different than what's being seen here I just don't want it, like all the age zones pass and it doesn't pass and what I think the council will take that as public directed The real question is it's probably not too much It's not a relation that's usually about it's hard to lose that about it the whole of the community though we did and the poll was prepositive I don't know we're in Colorado it never passed 155 percent dozens of these 50 plus one quite a bit to talk about so bright time to move to the next thing that's great thank you I'm excited to get to the next step so thanks for the time you have to send this presentation what was it again? it's almost the last one station oh it's the railroad at 6 p.m. 6 to 8 but there's no space to do it we're doing it outside outside contents we're doing it oh nice that was a little later I got a question yeah we're stuck in a lobby thank you thank you so continuing with Old Davis we'll go back to the library and culture top update Sandy are you first or do you have an intro? I will actually give you a quick I got in the middle I understand a little bit of room we don't hear it quite right but we're trying to Jeff might talk about what we heard in this group from in this room but also very intrigued and part of that was in the last go around trying to drive people to the right information on the website was frustrating heads up there might be some constructive criticism on how a website can provide things better if you have information if they're trying to give people to our information the other side of that was if we're going to have conversations with people what can you say how much can we say when is that transition from staff support in that so I think those are the kind of two pieces that kind of brought Sandy to talk about kind of the city's messaging on the website how do people do a better job with it and then how does board and staff react to go forward defenders over the legal requires we have I think we can start with the second I know you can't prepare for I'm not prepared for it at all if I take a look at the ears on at my legal brief should I how about it manager and I brought with me my friend Erica I don't know I think it tends to be pretty regularly right Erica is a communications manager okay well hello today what that means is all the internal stuff including communications and clerks and legislation is my general area I also work a lot with the council and I work a lot with this project so I apologize for piping up but I certainly want these things to pass as well I actually work for Jeff as a deep water aerobics instructor and I'm surprised it came up like that like not just water fitness but deep water they were at that open house last week oh my gosh yes they wanted to help they are passionate and they are sort of done with the lap but we're still they want even more space as well so yes I think how to be passionate for all of these projects that we take you know you had asked the questions so the second one is the what's the involvement of the board right okay there are a couple kind of bright lines as far as time burning money comes to elections go to city employees and for boards and commissions because you are a board commission member there is no reason why you can't speak up about the conditions which you have to identify as an individual person when you do those kinds of things because when you're working in the staff capacity of a city whether official which you are or city staff which we are any time that you're in that kind of a situation once ballot measures have been set then we are not allowed to spend any public money on that or advocate for or against those things in our city jobs so for example if you're probably not the city manager or the city manager but if you're somebody else in the organization and you'd like to just speak as a member of the public you're welcome to do that just as you are able to do that on a board commission but those of us speaking in our titles in your titles that's where things get to be a little funky so let me give you some time frame at this point everything's up in the air people are talking, we're debating we're discussing all those things you're probably fine, you're welcome to say anything you like you love it, you need it, you want it you need it, whatever it looks like you're welcome to talk about all those things staff is able to give their professional until the moment about ballot setting ballot setting is the second reading for us a ballot title that usually happens in August, first reading is usually the first meeting of a month of that month and then second readings are the second meeting of that month so once that ballot title is set in August now we have to put on our election and what that looks like is that you as a board as the city council as a board can take advocacy for or against ballot measure you're welcome to do that we can then advertise those group decisions from a board either from you or from the city council and that's as far as our advocacy or I don't know how it worked here you're advocacy or the other way that's as far as we can spend any city money tax money time on it so the city council I'm usually direct to me after they set a ballot bring them back the resolution of support I do so and we publish that in the city line the reason we're able to do that is because city line is the customary way that we get information out to our residents so because we do it all the time and we do it every single month we are allowed to publish resolution of support in the city line we as a board and we take a position and ballot measure can we write a letter to the editor that's signed by the board yes you can, if you signed it as a board then you're welcome to distribute that position in any way that you would like where it gets a little funky is we probably can't have you put that ask Erika to put that on the city social media right because now we're talking about Erika's city time and social media time since pre but yeah and so you can't at that point in time once that second reading happens with the ballot issues then we no longer can really speak to it more against all we are allowed to provide at that point are factual summaries to the residents which we do we then usually put together that brochure that people will get as a direct mail but it has to be very factual and I think what happened in 2019 I do think we have different interpretations this time but because the drawings that your consultant showed you were not introduced in a public meeting prior to ballot setting in the attorney's office that was advocacy because it wasn't part of public domain prior to ballot setting so that August date was really really important because we can strategize and talk about it and talk about what should the name of it be and how should we make sure that we get the vote and how do we really advocate for it and once that August timeline hits these guys can't talk about it with you like that anymore they have to be able to provide only factual summaries they can answer your questions but they're not able to advocate for against at that point does that make sense in general question the second reading is that just the ballot title or is it the text as well it's the whole it's the text it's the whole ballot this way so that'll be said at that point at that point it's set it's all over time or we can't use any more city time city money, city advertising we can't do any of those kinds of things now until that happens if this board ends up discussing an action group that wants to come out for this if that's what ends up happening you'd like to organize residents to do so you're welcome to do that once we hit August then we can't even discuss that in this meeting room you're a board you're an official and city official and at this point it really is just those resolutions of support these are really changes what things look like for us the more information that you get out there publicly that's why I'm hoping that your consultant is coming out in your 11th or 18th percent because the more you get those pictures out the more you get those maps out that's public domain now we can use public domain to get factual summaries that's better for us ahead of the August time frame because we can include those in the information and I do think that was pretty rough in 2019 to show a rec center everyone has their opinion on what happened my opinion is to show a rec center that has no place and has no pictures is not something most people are going to vote for because it's just not enough certainty people want to know what it is that they're going to get for their money and so the more search into you that you can have a big space even if you call it something different you want to be as clear as possible with how you're laying out some of these things because once that the ballot titles are set there's not a lot of huge discussion that can come afterwards my question this is probably a little later on it when is the text that goes into the blue book around the ballot built out of the descriptive text that contributes to that the ballot elections are not included in the blue book okay if it's a taber piece there will be a taber comment that can happen this is an opportunity that a lot of people miss is that anybody from the public can make a comment for the taber book the taber statements that you go out and they're not really like it right and it doesn't matter if they're back to it or not so anybody can say that you type out whatever it is that you want to tell voters about this particular piece whether it's factual or not which can be super dangerous because we can have people say anything they like with one that's taber taber means that there's a tax associated with the back period so once there's a tax associated with this one there certainly will be then we'll have to put out a taber notice taber notices have an open comment period anybody can comment during that period so that's a great opportunity to be able to put your comments and then it's also can be a little dangerous the CURPS office posts all that on their website didn't we do a factual sheet that was mailed out to people yes we do a factual summary every year on these ballot issues once the titles are set so we know what they are and we try we run that all by the attorney's office but we try to just say here's how much money this is what this adds for you and this is what do we get you know so the more information that you have out in the public coming before that the more information we can share with the public we also are required to put together pro and con statements that are not only equal in number but equal in size on the brochure I mean that's how factual we have to do it if we had more pros than cons our attorneys would say no that's not that's not a fair assessment we need to have the same space the same numbers on both sides there's the brochure this statement the mailer may or may not know is there a city webpage about the initiative we usually take the same information so the way I like to do it the way I like to do it is to create all the factual information once and then publish it in a mailer that goes to everybody the same exact information on the webpage the same exact information because then that way there's no this is the approved text approved by our attorney's office one thing I think is compelling about this initiative that the world has supported is it's not something that was thought of this year there was all the 15 years of planning and the last initiative is there a place that can be kind of written up as a narrative that makes the argument in favor of an initiative going to the public prior to the reading of the ballot so you can have an existing piece of website material that is supportive of the general idea of this being part of a long narrative you can absolutely do that if you wanted to put out editorial the head of the ballot did he get a little rough so yes technically could we yes would we probably not and the reason we wouldn't is because even though that line is drawn in August part of the reason people vote for city things is because they trust the city and so if we feel like we're advocating for something ahead of time sometimes that can a road public trust so I'm real careful I try to I mean we've done it we've certainly done it's only the last you know the last sale taxes on the streets we've had folks that contacted we've taken ones to kind of speak to you before ballot said I don't feel great about that usually and so you know under my direction we kind of stop that and really just say we're going to be factual we're always going to be factual that's the role of city government now if people ask questions like that and say hey how long has this been considered that we can certainly publish at the accused like that I guess my feedback would be encouraging us to be including that history as factual things that have happened but this has been discussed and planned for a long time there's been a lot of public comment there's been a lot of chances to get involved and it's not something that was thought of this year that's all factual there's a way to include that if actually if that has to be a great letter to the editor however Paul is not exactly getting to everybody I've read that one or two but I think the city it's important that the city's been information that shows this is part of the longer story I can understand the longer story question at it well especially feedback from the last election this is not the same we change because of all you know to add to your story that gets into I think the opinion piece we heard you we changed the business that's a little less factual but something like that okay well good question do you generally go back to asking more questions and survey we didn't have anything different to ask at this point so the council took seven or eight different projects and narrowed it down to four but they didn't change the way they were presented the whole Magellan basically holds if they did something like combined library and rec center and said this is a community center that's something we might want to pull on again although our time can you get deeper is that available it's all online the whole Magellan everything it's like a 60 page report it's all online under that because there is like within demographics which thing we asked them to re-run it if we were to do a presidential election year and they felt like what would pull better is the park which was cut in the last round but what would have probably pulled better they thought an election year as opposed to an off year was was parks and maybe human they didn't feel like there was a significant change based on a presidential election more turn out so are you guys you know there was the request to go for staff to go back and think about the all the recreation pieces and sort of what a package when do you have to bring that back to council I guess we're bringing back on the 11th right so I think what we're saying is that here's some changed conditions and what council directed us like I said was for rec center library performing arts center and this YMCA swap idea they may not be right we're going to find out in the next two weeks whether any of these are actually right to actually happen and that will be information that's also concerning but we did not combine any other projects we basically just left projects off based on their direction so directly park we decided to move towards water storage and enhancing that through water storage we received the grant finding that none of you guys can go as far as you used to but they received the grant I think what was interesting about the polling is that the centennial pool call out ended up being a much bigger it was a confusion over what was going on so we've been doing additional polling most of the polling came back as you know 53-55% as yes and I recognize that the consultant is saying our consultant saved it doesn't pull 60% which the library did but that was the only thing that which I was barely made 60% with the unscientific survey any other questions is it clear around what we can do with Lynn like right now kind of wild west August 8th and we're really restricted and we want to make sure that we are paying very close attention to earning that public trust they have to know when they get this brochure for the information that's inside so I think that's just Paige may be asked for the July at the end of it just for the agenda and the lines meeting talk about being clear what we kind of can't do in September because August meeting is too close to the meeting I think it's already full I think September or October is the time we make resolution and we just talk about things that are running later than the outside I think we can't talk about that though and that we need it so we need to plan beforehand what we're going to do that's not allowed to do later that's what he said July I don't want to get to July I'll be your boy it's a nice whole play yeah cool information oh yes I have another quick question what are there things that we're missing that a PAC should know talking to the city or getting resources from the city or the city would want a PAC to know to advocate on this behalf it's just a weird sort of relationship it doesn't show up that often and there are things that are not quite public all the time so it's just it's pretty rare that's a great question what I will tell you is that the first time that we tried to pass the next slide the ability to provide broadband to the residents it failed because of a huge campaign against it and the next time it was a small group of residents that got together and told all their friends and I believe that that's what made it pass the second time I would never underestimate your ability to organize people I don't know if you get something done this town is completely built on that this is part of our brand it was actually what it is to live on so I would say don't underestimate your own power in organizing your neighborhoods your friends your kids schools whatever whatever it is as far as city resources we can provide all the brochures that you need we can certainly publish any resolutions that you make and that's kind of yet we can come and talk to groups if we are invited that's a good one Jeff we are able to come and give factual summary and answer all kinds of questions if we are invited like vampires vampires exactly yes I would never underestimate a public opinion I think my ask is to have one place on city website where we have all it's coming about so like the survey results from the gallon I'd walk out the same website as everything else about this initiative if possible because there's so many places you can get different access to surveys but that would be helpful for all of us to be able to put people to a single place that lends it out that's not a brochure I think we would get a little against that on the website because I think we would look like that just facts and we can take a look at more specifically what you're talking about but if you're trying to build the case showing the polls showing the essence my guess is that I'm going to get whacked just the people who are interested in looking at the polls right now need to go look at some drop-down menu on a former agenda for a city council meeting so I'd love to particularly in July if you wanted to give me a list of what that looks like for you kind of an outline of this page would look like this would have this and would show these things you know that's something that we may be able to put together yeah it's a little tough because on the city's website we talk about elections we have election page the election page is brought to you by the city clerk and we will never fix that with anything that looks like anything else this is where you go to find out how to register to vote how to register to become a candidate who the candidates are what are their campaign sheets what does that look like then we have a tie over to the ballot issues the ballot issues are flashing so we go and have the tax that we just talked about that's part of the pro con kind of thing and we have had problems linking those before so I think this year we have a better plan if you remember that you may not have been part of that conversation but we used to never go from clerk to ballot issues and now I think we agree that we will at least have some connection there because when you're looking at elections you'll never see the ballot issues if you're looking at the first page right now because all you see is the elected officials so I think we've worked out some of that plus I think last year last time we certainly had some duplicate pages because we had different ballot issues so everybody did their own web page for their own ballot issue and we will not do that again because then it doesn't give voters the role is that also does that play in the advocacy issue of like each page has its own traffic so then right so if you looked last time and you were like oh there's a water bond issue and then you get your ballot and you find four ballot issues and you're like well what the heck I thought I was getting those information so we will be putting it together it will be much more consistent this year it will be single pages so if you can find anything we will have that on the homepage by whole period of time so that's a couple things that we recognize we need to improve you can have a pack oh yeah yeah create your own for sure for sure um can we move to the yeah I'd say you kind of jumped in there but we can go back and forth to whatever so if you can give me kind of this is what this might look like then I can at least consider that because city council is rolling decisions as we go the first presentation isn't relevant for the last presentation always the first presentation is you're going to see dollars that are no longer relevant for the next presentation so we want to be really careful council pages and council minutes are the rolling dialogue of these conversations and then when something is finalized absolutely put it up on the web so show that history can be kind of deaf it's not that we haven't done that before but I don't mind people who live once and who should be on this back and that's what put us here we tried really hard not to pull on heart strings so we just didn't send pictures of blood water great thank you so I think the other portion of this is if we have any other feedback could be related or to this initiative or other finding other information we talked a lot about how it's easy or not easy to find all the recreation and parts of open space related materials and had some discussion about maybe how to simplify that and maybe like having a search of little features where you could have like a map with all the parts and things located where you could click and find out about that map but we talked about some of this at our retreat so if there are any things that people can suggest I wasn't there or something no thank you that was a big a big item is that something that can be done well the way that the website is set up is right now we have a facilities module now I should carry out all of this by saying that we are in the middle of a web redesign project so what I would tell you is that maybe some of these things are not super easy today but knowing kind of that vision for what you might want to see tomorrow is something that we can include as part of our web redesign project because I love that idea that we have an interactive map our current website, the way that it works is this is a facilities directory and so you have all the facilities in the directory and the directory ties to different pages so when you're on the rec center page you can go back to the facilities page and you get the list of all the facilities rec center, the memorial building, all the parks those kinds of things but it's set up like a web so that the facilities are in one place and then they're web out to individual pages but I'd love to get those ideas on what to do when we are getting ready to go out and I think that I my skirt around that has been interactive Google maps and so there is 100 meters slash recs locations we do have a pin map that says Reclamation of facilities kind of color coded the issue that we may run into at this particular moment in time is accessibility so we are ruggling with the 10 year old website to meet ABA standards and the CAD standards which is part of this next iteration of the website so if you don't see it now I would love that feedback I would love to hear all of those pain points as we get ready to send out our request for proposals for a website vendor probably within the next few weeks so we can start gathering some of that utility data and seeing how we can double tail that with the accessibility concerns you're not going to hurt our feelings we know it's time for a change give it to us and it's my special field my special interest so I'm always happy to make things as easy as possible on the web that's absolutely right I have two I think two areas of comments the quicker one is a good example that doesn't work well for me today is not part of our community but active development blog like the planning and zoning active development blog there's a map there's also a PDF of a spreadsheet and in the map if you want to get documents and details about a specific thing that has happened in their place you know something's happening it's nearly impossible to find documents for that so I think in general because people think about out of development or parks or facilities is there's a place and a thing and there's information about that and there's a lot of nuance in the city world about what happened during city council what is a draft review plan what is it their final review plan or a plot site plan these things that have nuance that is less relevant to the public so a place to find everything about a certain site is the main focus for me the rec stuff is largely very accessible it's really most of what we talk about in this meeting on open space and parks and it's pretty hard to get an idea of where these things are what is happening there now and what is planned in the future for these different sites and part of that I think is that most of the staff is very fluent in naming the terminology but my experience during this board six months ago was that things of the difference between a park or a new wall and a new park bill are largely rolled into the public or a you know this phase 12 of the greenway we don't think of it it's just the greenway and I think there's my passion is that there's so much cool stuff being planned for public that people should know about and it's pretty hard to find it so I'm a big cyclist and I would really like to hear about whatever is phase 13 that you send to greenway projects and you know I asked Steve what is the map of that location he said oh yeah it's in the master plan I'm like where do I go find this tiny little map with a red line saying where it's going to go there's a lot of challenge I think with being too specific because you're in the sub-design phase look at those things but I think we sometimes are too conservative in reading things in a document that you might find your way to rather than being like here's the whole greenway we have incredible plans to both fill in the part that's closed right now it's going to be freaking awesome we can say that on the website and just show those things and right now it's not trumpeting that it's like if you know to look for the you know Gallo Park site that was being built to get there but I never heard about that until Steve told us about it I do know that Harold was very interested in doing some enhanced capital improvement program information information and information because we have a lot of things out there that are going to happen so I think he's interested in more reporting and these kind of things would be included in the study I think it's okay to say we don't know and it would be funding and there's not that much funding out there but if you're interested in this or you want to support this here's more information about it or how to get involved and to your point we have a lot of things that are happening that are happening right now more interactive maps yeah I keep that active about a lot of things up all the time because I don't work in external services but that's the first question I was getting and I was like hey what's going on and I feel kind of a little bit of it but pretty much all you can find is the name and the docket number or whatever it is and maybe it's a win for not I don't have a card but I put my email on the board so you're all welcome to email me or do a website walkthrough or anything like that I'm always happy to entertain and I love to hear about the recreation accessibility because I'm pretty sure that's 100% Iraq because you didn't used to be well it's a much more interactive part of the site where you don't have a login classes that are for the TMS it's a lot more than the parks has but it's got a lot of focus really yeah well look at our ideas too we had a lot when I was owning so we may have to revisit that because if I go back to you I guess one other thing that can't crop down the retreat sort of element was that we I as a citizen started to pull up and jump on this in AI just to see if it could pull some information and it was one of I managed to make it do it with other things as well but a few times it cropped back with I don't really have a clear idea and yeah and that was one thing that was hard and I passed the phone and I'm like yeah look it says it doesn't it can't find that it's also a recent point that a lot of I'm in banking a lot of big banks right now we're trying to figure out how to bet in it's great so if someone wants to search something up about like give me every single rate against AI and it gives me anything that we're one of those sites that shows up as a point of data that's terrifying to check yeah yeah I might have had like 3.5 I don't know if I would have had the best one but yeah it was it was something we passed around the room on just on one night oh really? yeah that's good to know it's done with the AI completely inadvertently and it might be giants the other day and it did a great job this question I was going to say I will share with Sandy at the retreat I had that map of all the projects and it kind of showed where they're all at I thought people thought it was great to see so geographically but also the idea of that interactive piece if you hovered over the rec center you start seeing what you get and you hover over you and you see what you get geospatial with some information information changes we had a lot of conversation about interactive spatial displays as a way to so if you don't mind I'll share that with Sandy a little bit of the map we have the staff is doing for us that's one of our map layers is it that map that I actually did with my cast the comment is very I'll say it more but I'm very happy at home with that stuff as a citizen I'll be happy to help with that that would be great we actually just spun up our first GIS division at the beginning of this year it's part of our strategic integration department so they are super excited we're hiring one more person and they're ready to rock it we're excited about it I think that's what we think too we think the interactive apps make a ton of sense they tell great stories lots of great information a little bit great I always have to keep my ideas on that please okay so if we want to we're at 8.30 I'm just through five you had to tell me so if we want to continue I think we have one more I am under a new business maybe we should try to get to so we can extend for 15 minutes for 8.40 what was the next 10 minutes for both alright alright my wife just texted me that we all should go home because the nuggets are down by one so we all should be watching it make it quick make it quick one other thing that we had from that our retreat two was that it's really hard to find rec classes through the website you basically have to know to go to rec track and spell it out exactly how rec track has something it's not intuitive at all you just want to go to the website which are like rec class classes is also what we searched I'm going to tell you that's what it was rec class nope that's right no one I had to leave that screen on my phone always because you had so hard to ever find it again I know I want to call no I get it it was just yeah and you had to have somebody show you that kind of thing but that's because it was early but as I continued to get better more and more upgrades thank you so much thank you so much for having us if you have any other questions these guys know how to get hold of me they get hold of me every day I'm going to take my germs home they might be out for good and thank you all for everything that you do your voice is really mattering as I said thank you very much thank you okay the sunset has opened we've got to open the on-time with that perculean effort by staff after the pool that filled with mud after the it was the main night storm that I also scored four of my car in the morning in the end we were able to add 19 parking spots to that lot based on some things they did and some creativity we had also we were able to move a few of the golf staff out of the lot in addition to that the first week of sunset being opened this was weather related we did add another 15 15 or so spots in a lot below where the sunset golf parking or I'm sorry practice area so we created a lot there golf guys are just big they were awesome got some public streets lots of parking blocks and so between those we got about 34 extra spots staff notice to park in that lower lot between our guys between one and five to try to minimize we had originally lost about 45 spots so we got about 34 in the back so it's not I don't feel like it's much worse than it was it was always a problem so that's a challenge but I don't know if there's more there but I hope to it's not helping you it's not helping me I did run that the first week it's not pretty yeah so we have a really big challenge with it but we do have various plans I think it's coming together with folks in the city in fact you can go in very quickly to have this happen and then the cool stuff so yeah that's where as far as that goes now the tank itself that's their show the director said any questions about that and that will finish this summer fall in the year oh really we consider that a lot and the signs knew it so was the parking lot used to be one way on the right hand side and then one way back it never was it just functionally works that way that's how people tend to treat it it hasn't really changed that's what people tend to do we just go outside or something what are you doing yeah the pools and everything I just mentioned is that both the activity pools are now open yeah a couple months ago you weren't so sure about it you were sure it wasn't going to open yeah there were a bunch of leaks just a lot of issues that's great staffing came staffing has come around that hasn't been nearly the issue but it hasn't always been an issue and the opportunity to hire two full-time pool managers that we didn't have in the past has made a big difference anything urgent in the last five-ish minutes ten minutes from items from packet or anything else from staff I just had a stupid question I don't know what EWF is but someone was very excited to write something about EWF it's on page 10 it's something about parts all the playgrounds have been refreshed with EWF it's a wishy-washy it looks like wood chips I'm not sure I'm sure it's landscape architect he got that excited there's a lot of biologists it took me a couple of times to do it's like I'd like to be excited for you but I don't know it causes the fall hazards and stuff like that it's almost like fucking sand but those things are locked in place and it really reduces injuries and stuff I have two green light questions one on the phase 15 which is the east end we've mentioned it for a long time the $1.5 million C-dot program now we're looking at other funding sources how much of that is it going to be a $10 million project or a $5 million art, is there some idea how much that fills? there's a lot of moving pieces one of the pieces right now is the fact that the states that we can go on go under the underpass where the same frame goes to that it was always the attention we were going to put in a pedestrian path along the side of that sometimes it would flood during really high water marks after 2013 we did all the flood modeling and said you know let's seed out the state giving us money to do that there's no way to mitigate that so to get around that there's another box called under the intersection of the women line road and that is about a $5 million increase in that project so that gives us a little bit of a guarantee for the piece we have an adjacent landowner that by the flood plain we have about a $2.5 million retaining wall and mitigation work on that so now we're at 7 we have an adjacent landowner that is not willing to sell us an easement we'll be willing to sell us this whole property which falls in the ballparkish of those numbers too so but now we have some other options to this way on negotiations so we have, I can tell you right now it's going to be at least $5 million more $5.5 million in the past yes and then we have the poisonants and then we have how we get through this the other one was on the west it's already down so let's see if I can yeah quick the other trail mentioned in the regional trail funding the 12th de Boca system what would that mean so 12th is going to go from Golden Ponds out to Boca or Boulder County open-states properties which is right there across from 75th going over to still a private property the county has an easement on that and I think about 5 years that will revert forward the county and that will tie in to Palo Alto so if you're in the Boca we'll talk about that a little bit this one's starting to that's Air Force yeah all those Bocos in UW important place is the other one okay I have one from the board I've gotten several questions and comments about the tennis courts at Coale wondering how often or what's the schedule for resurfacing there are certain courts there are getting pretty chewed up and whether it's from play or shoveling or I don't know but visiting teams ask folks about it because this is a great facility except what's with this is that a thing we submit hey this is looking bad or is this every 5 years you repaint them or I'm just curious it's kind of both now all of these two jumping down kind of a professional side but there really is sort of a maintenance routine that temporary parks are pretending kind of follows that piece of it we also recognize there's some areas that just seal right that there is pair of pockets under measures a little pickleball folks tennis folks should just put in look at this court it went well so if there's something we can do we want to keep a professional working stuff and we'll make that decision if this is something we can make sure the level plays out it looks good or we really have to look at it but I can make sure that next time I'll get that rotation from Tim Brung 5 and 8 in particular are the two worst but the courts next to them are bad at Coale and for whatever reason it's not clear how that maybe that will help you decide about shoveling if you think that's what caused it or sunshine or you know but sunshine is not a problem well it isn't it was a winter or sun not having it though that's the rain and ice combo so from our meeting last week last time I addressed about the ramps around the park, around the tennis from Coale so Bill Greenwell sent over a new plan that by July 4th weekend two ramps are going to be put in basically you go up the ramp take a right there's like a walkway on the south side parking lot of the tennis court area there'll be a ramp there and then you take a left and then the ramp basically to the access path to Greenway both of those will be ground down and then there'll be signage for cars to watch out for bikes this is to cross the tennis court parking area basically correct or bicycle access to the Greenway from the rec center that makes sense I noticed that there were just curves I missed the last meeting success yay that's where kids run so I've put all these curves to the steps exactly 8.4 do you want to do that? do you want to adjourn? how would we adjourn? I say all those in favor?