 I just have to dark welcome back to authentic conversation with young alumni of historically black colleges, universities, full house tonight. We got Dr. Eatman, also known as Uno on Instagram, a lot of brother Katie, brother Eric or is the Morgan Knight, Winston get him in the school Tiffany officially thrown off the show today. She's working on homework, so she finally was thrown off the show for an effective reason, not the one we would have expected. So full show tonight, a lot of different topics to get to and be sure to stick with us on Dodgers at the Dark Overtime on Instagram and to tune in on Sirius 142 HPC radio on the Sirius XM radio network, the pride of Howard University. So let's start. This is something we missed last week. This is the Langston University issue with moving a lot of their programs. In fact, most of their programs out of their satellite campus in Tulsa, they will be taken over to the same satellite campus of Oklahoma State University in the same city. The price tag apparently on these programs, $15 million over a 10 million period. It looks like there's also a side agreement that will settle a longstanding civil rights complaint from alumni of the school against the Board of Regents in Oklahoma for the amount of $750,000. So I've written about it. A lot of people have weighed in over the last week, last two weeks. We are interested in getting on the air to talk about this because I think that and I think that most of you would agree this is a substantive topic that may have reverberations for a lot of the HPC community. So, or as I know, you are jumping at the bit to talk about this. What do you think about the agreement for Langston to almost said the word surrender? I don't know if that's the right word, but to concede a lot of its programs to another competing PWI in the same city under the auspices that they will build up strength in the area of health science and specifically for the price tag of $15 million. I think the price tag is way too low. I mean, $15 million is not much money. And I know the land and stuff in Oklahoma is cheap, but $15 million is very, very, very low. One, two, Tulsa is the second fastest growing city in the state of Oklahoma, only behind Oklahoma City. And their population is set to almost double basically within the next 10 years. Like if you look at the city's population growth in terms of census tract, it's growing like 46% per census tract. So you're looking at a very fast growing city. You're looking at really, really cheap land. You're looking at an opportunity for growth and then to just give up your programs to settle this lawsuit. I think that in general and kind of what some of the people have said on social media is that they were worried about this lawsuit being dragged out or being thrown out. And I think that at times you just want to kind of get it over with. You just you're tired of fighting. But I think in general, this speaks more to Oklahoma State's push against Oklahoma because you know where Oklahoma has Oklahoma City on lock. So there's no way for Oklahoma State to get into that city. So Tulsa is the next best thing. And it's basically cannibalized as Tulsa for Oklahoma State, which again puts this 2C monopoly on the state like in states like Texas and states like Tennessee where you know there's in fighting with let's say two big flagships. Same thing in like it's really big with Houston because Houston doesn't have an A&M or Texas present. So like it's really interesting to see kind of how it plays out. But I think in general is a bad move by Lincoln, I mean by Langston. Cheap program, I mean cheap price on the programs. And I think they're going to regret it in a couple of years. What do you think about those programs? And Katie, I'll throw it to you because it in a lot of ways when you look at some of the programs that were were given up, it looks a lot like what we were dealing with up here with Coppin. So Coppin had competitive programs in nursing, criminal justice. And while nobody tried to take those programs from us, at least from the HBCU community, they tried very much so to build all around them. University of Baltimore, Towson, they tried to do a lot of stuff to to to make to marginalize our program. So what do you what do you think when you see an instance like this, especially because we're still living through it here in Maryland? Um, the first thing I think of is. They may position the school to close in the next five to 10 years. If they're lucky, the sound like, um, and I'm just, yeah, or that, that can't be a right. Right. Um, and then that diminishes recruitment to the school in general. So then now you can attract again, because STEM is, is, is the thing right now. That's almost the only sure shot coming out of college, get a job. It's picking STEM. You took a lot of the STEM majors from them, essentially. And so now who are you recruiting? Cause you're not going to be able to hold the university with a bunch of humanities and social studies majors. Unfortunately, it's not going to, it's not going to sustain. Um, and just the idea that, uh, a PWI came and swooped in such a low price, man. My God, 15 million. They just patched my home. Just got 50 million. Yeah. If you made me get to play football, Patrick, my home. Come on out. You got football players and basketball players to make more than 15 million dollars. I was going to say, like, it has to be worse. The coach working on the state football got to make more than 15 million. You know, it's just come on. You could do better. You could have asked for more if you were or asked for a larger stake in this and whatever this merger or acquisition was, it's disappointing. And 15 million over 10 years. Right. Jesus Christ. So which means that one point. John Paul made more on the bench as a university. You try to talk about that. Wait, wait, hold on. You're trying to tell me that Langston got the mid-level exception to pretty much, pretty much. They got the vet minimum. They got the vet minimum. They got the Bobby Bonilla deal. Don't do that. Think about it. They got the Bobby Bonilla. I'll bring it. Let's think about that. I'll say the quiet part out loud. There are people making more money than they will make off this. This act was. So let me ask this question. So and I'm going to position this to Winston and Ola because y'all actually work with students coming out of high school and try to guide them on steps they can take. Now, this is a satellite program. So it's not Langston proper. Right. It's it's their offshoot in Tulsa, which as always said, is a is a big area. It's a diverse area. So you not only had the opportunity to recruit more black students, you had white, you had Hispanic. You had everything that was going to be in that area, living and working. What do you think that this does to, as Katie mentioned, the recruitment because I don't know if you guys have worked with with with kids or people trying to get into college and recommended specifically go to a satellite program or go to an online program. Is that something y'all have ever spoken to people about? And how do you convey the message about how important that is? Ladies first. Ono was drinking. Um, I don't generally know not the satellite. But it's something in my homegirls like I don't I don't like that. Like, I think that when you have an HBCU and you've got a TWI taking over, it sends the bad message. And then for the amount of money I watch football, like y'all do whatever. But that's not a little bit just off the break. Like, nah, so if you if if you're trying to make it look good for a student, how does that appear to them? If they're bought, like, what does that look like? Do you think students are paying attention to it? Like high school kids? I know the alumni are are paying attention. But do you think that students look at things like that? Winston, um, you know, like, to the point, like, I think the only satellite campus I've even really had real discussion with my students about is at Southern University, like, TUNO, that's probably the only one that I really even had, you know, any issue with talking about a satellite campus, like, to this point, that's not really a conversation. Like, you know, that's not really most cool about that. I think the long term issues we're talking about, like with the finances and the opportunities in the state of Oklahoma, that's a bigger issue. The sister that came for you on social media, you know, defending her alma mater, you know, talking about, you know, you don't understand. We're trying to get like, that doesn't sound good either. So at this point, it's not like, yo, you really are like, y'all are struggling. You're grasping at straws. That doesn't sound good either. My deal, I'm trying to get something out of it. Like, at least let us get something. I'm like, that's not really that's not helping sell your brand. That's not helping Southern University. That's not a quality option. You're talking about grasping at straws that doesn't make any kids say, oh, yeah, I really want to go there. Like they're trying to get every little sip they can get. Like I don't understand how that benefits you in the long term to say that, oh, at least we got something out of it. I think you're still having it's a bigger issue. You're talking about down the road that doesn't benefit them in any shape or form in the masses. Eric, the school says that this will position them the money and the focus on health sciences, particularly nursing, will position them to be stronger in that area. So they they're taking the gamble that, okay, we'll give up seven or eight programs that may have been not doing so well with enrollment. When you when you talk to some folks at the campus, they'll say, well, part of the challenge with them was Oklahoma has a rule that satellite campuses can't offer four years of a degree. You can only do the last two. So you only can take your junior and senior year courses there. So it's obviously geared towards folks who started a program and didn't finish or coming back, continuing education. But do you think that that's a that's a good bet that you take one program and say, we're going to be the juggernaut in this rather than pretty good and a whole bunch of stuff in 2020 higher education? Do you think that's a good bet? I don't think that's necessarily a bad idea, right? Because you have places like, and we law at Spellman all the time for knowing what they do, stick to it, not moving outside of themselves and making sure that excellent and those things that they do, right? So there is to say about that piece of the conversation. My question is, is when you're a state system or state or public public institution like that, what makes you think it's going to stop just there? And to my point when it comes to that is like, all right, so 15 million dollars over 10 years, first of all, you look like a suck. So let's start right there, right? Second of all, no, I mean, it just is what it is. Like 1.5 million over like each year for 10 years, that 1.5 won't even know what 1.5 is going to hit like 10 years from now. Right, right. So like things like like we over here. Jokes about sports contract. I'm like, is it front loaded? Like, are you going to see most of it? That's a great question. What is the guaranteed money at signing? Like, yeah, all this is no guarantee money. You ain't getting nothing exactly my point. The state, the stable hitter recession in five years and be like, oh, no, we're going to have to hold off on this money right now. How to defer what? Yeah. So my thing is, is that to a point, it's like, all right, God, why y'all give up so fast? And I mean, you know, I look at them the same way I looked at the Merlin. If you see cases like, oh, let's go ahead and settle. I'm like, all right, cool, I get all that because you want to get something as opposed to getting it at all. I understand that. But who y'all got doing the numbers and projections and fighting people because something's going to make sense. Am I the only last comment I have? And this is just a bit of a conversation. If your professors were required to write to do research and grants at the rate that they're supposed to be doing, y'all could have more money coming in and wouldn't be looking for 15 million dollars over 10 years to support some programs. So let me ask you on that, though. So that that's one of the things that I think that Langston that that's probably the quietest part of this issue. They were saying they were losing money over years because not enough. They didn't get enough enrollment at the actual campus in these programs so that you were paying faculty, you're paying for a building, you're paying all these costs. I'm going to give our protest correspondent the last word on this. Do you think that just even even if you accepted that 15 million was the best deal you could have gotten? Do you still say, no, we're not doing that for the sake of fighting for the sake of we deserve better. The sector deserves better. Black people deserve better. So we're just going to fight and see where this ends up. Is it is it worth negotiating or is it worth the fight to the very end? I mean, I'm a 96 family. We fought and that's it. Anthony Mason and that's it. So the X man. They have to get my male oak. It is. So you're saying the fight is it's worth the fight. Even if you just say, all right, fine, we're just going to have these struggling programs. We're going to siphon money. We're going to we're going to struggle with enrollment. But we keep what's ours. Go on. I mean, it's it's what you're putting out there. Like the gentleman, all the gentlemen have stated, what does it look like? What are we telling the people? How does that look? I'm I'm I'm tired of like backing down. Like, ain't nobody know her like you step up and you show out. That's it. And we're going to leave it at that. Don't be a herb. When we come back, we're going to continue our conversation. We will continue our conversation, our ongoing conversation about HBCUs and the coronavirus. Some new updates from the White House all the way to some of our campuses. This is that just have to dark right back. Oh, my God, but I am going to watch the interview. And he's just radio and we're back. HBCU Pride Nation and Mona Scott Young. Let's talk about. Let's talk about the ongoing coronavirus issue with HBCU. So it was interesting yesterday. Trump did a press conference and this was a press conference that was supposed to be about coronavirus vaccine delivery. And somehow or another, his rambling has got on. Oh, yeah, we doing testing at HBCUs and my phone goes berserk. Presidents have hit me like, yo, did he just say that they're doing vaccine testing at the schools? So I'm listening to it. I'm trying to hear it. And he rambled so much that you literally have to go to the transcript on this guy. And when you read the transcripts of what him and the doctors, what is it? Scott Atlas, the advisor on coronavirus was saying, we part of why you should look at us as a success is the amount of testing that we've asked for HBCUs to do to try to mitigate what's happening in black community. So what they were saying was we're increasing the testing for black folks starting with HBCUs. That doesn't let Trump off the hook for being a lion as racist. It just said it just corrects. It just corrects. Here's what he was attempting to say that his view is that we're good because we're trying to get Negroes tested in black communities. And by the way, y'all stop trying to scare black folks and tell them not to take the vaccine. So that's how we bridge into this conversation, right? So we're what, three weeks out from two presidents saying that they're part of the the vaccine trials. They've been getting dragged. Our frat brother, Kimbrough has been on TV. Roland Martin talking about the, you know, participating and why black folks need to do it. All of the presidents who oversee historically black medical schools wrote in the New York Times in a joint op ed, we need to get more black folks involved in trials. But they also added to caveat that more black physicians and doctors need to be a part of the vaccine development. I would lift all that up to ask y'all simply what is it looking like for black folks? Because as we open more and more stuff, as Oona gets on more and more planes to go different places and then leave. We'll talk about that later. It would appear that people are acting like a vaccine is on deck. Right. Like schools and stores and sports and all that. They're acting like this vaccine is close. What does that mean for black folks? Does that does that change the calculus for African Americans? Because it would appear that we're now in a struggle because you got presidents saying take the vaccine and you got their constituents saying, hell, no. So has anything changed in the last three weeks, given all that we know now? Katie laughing. Go ahead, bro. Didn't I say all of that last time we talked about that? Well, it's different. Didn't I say that we got to check in the game at some point? You do. I mean, but you still we're still fighting it. We're still fighting and I understand. And I think the problem is that as much as we distrust politics, black folks distrust academia because of their Google educations, and that's what really gets on my nerves. It's because you don't now we act. The black doctors are asking you specifically check in the game. It's true. We need you. There's the only way this is going to be equitable. And now you're like, you working with them. All right, I don't know what you want because then once they actually start issuing this vaccine and mandating it and your babies are actually getting sick because that we don't have enough data on the on this on this population, what what what's next? You know what I mean? What what do we do now? Now you can't go to school. Now you can't travel. Right. So I mean, I'm just we need to check in the game. What do the black? It's still a historical context, though. It's still the issue of the historical context behind those things. It's still very real. Like in the history, the history and the concerns of those people exists. Whether or not it's fully legitimate, it still exists. Here I got a question. Everybody who's on this podcast right now, how many vaccines do you have in your system? I'm private service. So I have the most. I'm sure. Probably have. Yeah. I had to do it again. So like 30 years ago, right? So like I'm so I'm asking these questions because if we're going to talk about context, let's have complete context, not just the context that we want to choose to support our own arguments. Because yes, we know Tuskegee happened. Yes, we know Henrietta Lacks. Yes, we know the history of the APA and all these other things. We know these things. But actually speaking, many of us are walking around with vaccines on the system. Yeah, on an everyday basis. And they have time to test those joints. Yeah, right. So this is what I'm saying. Yeah. So I'm give I'm with you on that. I'm not saying that we should all rush out and go and get in going these trials. But what I'm saying is that the truth has to exist somewhere in the middle because we're not going to know if it works or people don't test it. But I'm not going to sit here and say that only black people should be out testing it. Go over to the University of Oklahoma with all that money. They just take a payout and make it make them bammers. They make them bammers, you know, saying let them let the boomer soon as hit that, you know, I don't think white folks have an issue getting getting into the trials, though. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. The White Anti-Backs Movement is way bigger than the Black one. The Black one is just a certain doctor we won't mention on this podcast and a couple of other folks. But the the the White Anti-Backs Movement. I mean, they are the ones who were they're taking over federal lands and stuff in Oregon and stuff. They take over federal lands in Nevada and doing armed standoff with police. But I'm pretty sure for every one anti-vaxxer you can find a willing participant. I'm pretty sure. Here are two points that I think that we got to lift up and it's specific to HBCU leadership. And maybe I've just been naive all this time. I would have believed that if a HBCU president came out and said something on a national issue that was outside of our typical scope, like we comment on police shootings, we comment on racism, we comment on black issues, right? And that's par for the course. But if you had a HBCU president come out and say, here's a stance we should think about taking for something that's not a black issue, so to speak, even though it is given the disproportionate rates of what we're suffering, that black folks would have been eager to listen. Because at this point, we're saying, okay, it was one thing when I thought it. It was one thing where my cousin in them was saying it. Now you got a president saying it. And so at this point, I'm like, does Jay-Z have to come out and say take the vaccine before people say, you know what? I might do it. Or do you think that Jay-Z is going to be like, cancel them? Like there's nothing no one can say. I mean, it's not good. I mean, I don't think it's that no one can say anything. I should face Eric is that you need a conduit, right? Like it got to be like my cousin in them did it. So I feel comfortable. Like if the students then take it back to their multi-generational, if they have that homes and then they tell their peoples, because those are the ones, the older generation that are susceptible to COVID-19. So it's going to take that conduit, but don't nobody want to jump out there and be it. I mean, I don't, my mom just got tested, she's 67, she's negative, and she was supposed to, she had mad trips to go to, she ain't going to none of them. Cause she was like, I can't, like I'm too old, but it's still like a concern. And she kind of like, you better not go out there and get no vaccine because we don't know what they're going to do to you, we swear black. And that's a thing. I'm just, I'm just so surprised that it doesn't, I would have thought again that there was a time in our history where if HBCU president said something that meant something to the community, this means nothing. It's almost like these brothers and sisters, but you know what though, we're glad, I'll let you go ahead. Cause I got you a bunch of, I think it's definitely what they're dealing with. So first and foremost, the black community doesn't really have no real leaders and we really think that people who aren't educated about a lot of things are experts on things they have no business talking about. That's the first point because let's think about it, like it's a whole bunch of us who got expertise on a whole bunch of things in higher education and people be out here just reading the headlines and taking that, it's like, oh, okay, the headline says so that's gotta be true. The second thing is they wanted this to get done. They should have came to the door and said, we will pay off at least two years' worth of your tuition that you paid for. Yeah, I jump right in. I wish it all, baby. Listen, I'm in the vaccine. I might become an early adopter. All for that, I might be an early adopter. Like, like you gonna have to give me something. Or is with you and like you taking the vaccine to get your, your tuition canceled? Oh, yeah. Oh, you said order? Order, everybody. Who would have, who would have signed up for the answer? Yes, they said we're going to take the last year, your tuition off. If you take this, this vaccine trial, who would have done it? Me, absolutely. A hundred percent. Yeah, what I thought about it. I'm going to get over it. I'm right here. No way, no way. You're down on both knees. So you need two years of tuition with your owner. What happened? You need two years or one year? What does it take for you to take the vaccine? Neat. Because I'm not like, I'm just not like they try like there is bad enough that I had to get the vaccines that I had to write, although we're trying to do the right thing. But now and they haven't tested them like I'm throwing myself out there. That that's not a read like not. I'm not the conduit that I spoke of earlier. True indeed. Winston, what do you think about? I'll go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. I'm sorry. There's, there's, there's a possible that we may not be that we may be missing one. It's a high survival rate. So people think they don't need it. Right. They think that we'll get, we'll get through it if we catch it, you know, no matter what. So it's going to be 200,000 people dead by in two weeks. Yeah. And that's the problem because it's 330 million people in America. That's just, it's a high survival. They're doing, they're playing the odds. Right. Can we call it high? I don't know. We call it high. I mean, I mean, again, it's 330. It's 330 million people in America, like 5 million people courted. You know, less than 1% to 1% that's 99%. The death rate right now is at 3% just FYI. 97% playing the odds. These people are playing the odds. It's so. I mean, do what it is. 3%, like you, we all here saying, oh, we playing the odds. But at the same time, 3% was considered like an epidemic as it pertains to HIV AIDS. So like, let's be careful when we talk about like. Oh, but that's, but that's the mindset. Especially in Dennis, and then I'm making this point. But I'm making this point, though. But we still would have called people super for not using condoms. Sure. So like, I'm just saying. And I mind you, I'm not even saying that the vaccine is kind of, I'm just saying that people will start wearing them damn masks to be a little bit, you know, like, like, it's like, you can't see him be like, I'm, I'm completely against the vaccine, but y'all bamers on campus, like hanging out, like, no, that's, I guess here's, here's my point. Doing all those things. Here's my point. And to, and this is to what you just said, Eric. I don't know what HBCUs have, what else we have to do to establish more credibility on an issue like this. We run around and we talk about, guess who produces the most black doctors? Guess who produces the most research on health disparities for black people? Guess who's working against some of these comorbidities like obesity and diabetes and kidney, kidney disease and heart disease is HBCUs. If the HBCU doctors, Wayne Frederick, James Hildreth, Valerie Montgomery Rice, are telling you, get involved. I ain't talking about doctors such as such who's president of, I'm not talking about Kevin James and Morris Brown. I'm talking about MDs that lead HBCUs. They are telling, get in it. And we're not listening to the MDs who are, by the way, the leading spokesperson of a sex that takes so much heart and look at all we do to reverse black health disparities. What else do the sector have to do? Or does the sector have to do to have enough credibility where people say, okay, because right now we're fighting them. And that, to me, that's shocking. Maybe it's not enough. It's not that I'm saying HBCU presidents are celebrities. I'm saying, what else does the sector have to do where some of your leaders are saying, I'm gonna put my body into it or I'm gonna put it in the New York Times, go ahead and take it. Cause I'm a medical doctor and I think I know best. What else do we have to do to establish credibility? Moreover, why don't we have enough on this issue? What's the primary medical research facility that is housed by HBCU? The primary medical facility? Like medical research facility, right? Like if you had people on your particular campus who were literally working exclusively in research, no matter, you know, in a STEM field that's related to medicine, where would they be at? What did you see? It's probably, it's probably my area of moral school of medicine, but it's not commonly known to the lay person. Now, and then when you think of Howard with a teaching hospital, and you're talking about active practice, active healthcare practice. So it's not like we don't have hubs. You know what I mean? It's just people, we're acting like we don't have any credibility on this. And that- I think who had made a point before when we were talking about it about just the communal aspect. So like, yes, we have these, you know, Dr. Frederick and some of the other folks and even, you know, I'm a Harry in Nashville, which is a, you know, a large population of us in that area, surrounding areas. I think you have to be on the ground. I don't know how much ground work is being done with those conversations. Like, yes, they've spoken out, you know, from a national bandwidth to your point to the lay person. Are they really, are they reading those things? Are they really in the know about what they're doing and what they're saying? I think you kind of have to have a communal ground base. Kind of how the swelling of HVCU started their education in general with the surround with the farmers and people that were in the general areas. I think it has to be the same type of thing. You have to be out in the communities having these conversations. It has to be kind of like a widespread from this source to have this conversation with grandma, with the multi-generational like when I said as well, like, and everybody kind of getting an understanding. Here's Dr. Frederick saying to us, he's, you know, on DC, on the streets, having this conversation with people in our community so they can understand the severity, the importance and the value of being engaged and involved in this. Cause I don't think they're reading the, you know, the news reports or watching them or what have you to see that he's making these points. So what can we do? We have to go back kind of like I said, an old school way of the approach of getting that information out. Let's break right there. This is gonna continue cause the fall is coming and winter is coming and we reopening stuff and they're talking about this zone is gonna get worse. There's already spikes in Europe. And I'm still not getting the flu shot. If you don't too much. If you don't just radio, we'll be right back. If you see that just radio, we'll be back. Little did we know Eric already had the vaccine front end like he didn't have it. Let's get into a conversation. I'm gonna let Ores run with this one. U.S. News and World Report Rankings are out as of this week. And this is a sore spot for me, but a good spot for a lot of HBCUs. Several HBCUs are up. Some of the metrics have been changed to reflect more emphasis on social mobility, affordability and other things that go well for HBCUs. And the usual suspects are the ones that are rounding this thing up. Howard Morales, Spelman, Xavier, Famu, North Carolina, and T. So it's the same old thing. Did you guys have a different reaction to this year's ranking and more specifically, more specifically the promotions, the way that the schools talked about their various rankings? Go ahead and preach Ores. I'm just gonna say that, you know, I took on about $30,000 in tuition revenue debt to make this statement. So whoever wants to have any type of feeling, they can go pay my loans. So they can go hit up Nelnet. Famu is corny, bro. Like it's just facts. Like the shit is corny. Excuse me, the stuff is corny. Like it's corny. I just feel like as someone who went to school there, I was there for our last MEAC championship, which was in 2010. I was 10 years ago. And the fact that we out here printing black, you know, black college football championship banners and T-shirts, they haven't even played celebration bowl yet. Are y'all already ready to mince the? We ain't beat Bethune since I was a friend in college. I'm almost 30. I'm just, I'm just, I'm tired of people searching for something to do. And again, I went to school there. I had on a Famu shirt on class colors day. October 3rd is Famu's big day. And we're gonna still be here talking about, oh, we're gonna get rings made for the football team. Y'all ain't beat Bethune in 10 years. I just, I just really, I just really don't get it because to me success is true success. They were ranked number seven overall in HBCUs, tied with North Carolina A&T, number one amongst public, what does that mean, public HBCU? Cause you could say how far it's public, how I got more public from the family than you does. So, I mean, I just think that in general, you know, it's corny to use these ranking to try to disparage other schools, to talk mess about Bethune, to do different things to make yourself feel better. But, you know, a hit dog will holler. So, I mean, a hurt dog will holler. So, and that's what they are. People in the comments talking about all the, the Florida Board of Governors, you know, they care. You know, they're gonna give us more money. No, they're not. They had, they had two tweets about fam and six about UF, another seven about Florida State. And so, it just to me is comical, right now they're still doing this push to try to build new locker rooms for a team that won't be using them till next year. But again, and they better be Bethune. If they get stadium upgrades, they get new locker rooms, new jerseys. Be real mad about this white classic. White helmets. They got all this swag and y'all lose. Oh, you know, you had a chance to, you had to get some other players going 2018, you fumbled the bag. Then in 2019, when you can't play for nothing, oh, now we champions. I'm done. Okay, anybody want to follow that? Oh! I think Eric needs to go, Eric needs to talk about the, what he had mentioned before to the day about how we, this metrics that we use and the metrics that they use, I want to channel Tiff who got kicked off the show real fast. I want to channel her in this moment because I want to ask a lot of people who support these schools, all of our schools, do y'all want success or do y'all want clout? And a lot of y'all don't, y'all aren't able, y'all can't differentiate the two. Like I had somebody who literally told me that, like what really was clout is what's quote unquote, excellence and I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, let's, let's get this in order. All right. Like you really, like I graduated from the HPCU and like we talk about like rankings that don't mean nothing. US World News and Report for eight years in a row ranked Winston and State as the top public comprehensive university in the South. First of all, that's way too many adjectives. All right. Let's start like, let's start right there. Right. That's way too many adjectives for me to actually think that actually meant something. Now, my education was wonderful. Once I took full advantage of it, it definitely has been a wonderful thing. But when we see on a yearly basis, how schools get hemmed up for, for fudging numbers so that their rankings are higher, it's to let you know that these rankings mean that they're extremely subjective. University of Oklahoma. This guy, all these, all these rankings that I was talking about, based upon PWI adjacent metrics that have nothing to do with the mission and reason our schools are founded in the first place. And you really care about these numbers so you can do what? Go on Twitter and brag about the clout when nobody gives a damn. I guarantee you the majority, like you have a better, you have a better time convincing people and you think about the band than you do talking about this BS ranking system that you just got. And it was a tie. It was a tie. Like God damn, it was a tie. Let me, let me say real quick. Because I'm, well, let me do this. Let me throw it to the owner real quick because you went to Hampton as a standard of excellence. What do you make of these rankings? Because Hampton is always up there in that top tier as with most of the HBCU privates. And the rankings are, I think we can all agree, the rankings are designed to accommodate the privates, the flexibility they have with enrollment standards, the flexibility they have with endowment for those that have large ones, even for the HBCU rankings because they can have greater latitude in saying, here's what our admission standards will be. Here's what our performance metrics will be. Here's where we stand in terms of peer institutions. It's geared towards the privates. So when you hear this, when you hear FAMU and A&T, Morgan ain't even in it, you know what I mean? Like, so I guess it sounds like sour grapes to me. I never cared about the rankings. For you, does it resonate with you as from somebody from a school that's always up there in the conversation? It doesn't. I watch other people get hype about it and I'd be like, yay. But it's like, cause they don't know what they're looking at. You know what I'm saying? The metric changes, the methodology changes and y'all hype. Oh, last year we was this, but y'all don't even know what the methodology looks like. And y'all hype, I can't, I can't get hype about something that ain't real. Like, mm-mm, no. So when I like, we'll put it in the, you know, the Hampton group or whatever, not me. Somebody, cause I never posted it cause I don't want to hear all the conversation. Somebody will post it and then it's, oh, well, hi there. And I'm like, I don't even understand this don't really matter. Like it doesn't. But, you know, be excited. Be excited. It's something to talk about. Winston, do you use the rankings for your kids? You know, you brought that up the other day and it is such a, like having to deconstruct those rankings for these young people in their families to help them understand how bogus this stuff can be. How it's all, you know, the propaganda of whatever publication is putting it out, what relationships they have, who they're able to talk to at the institutions, these things like having to, like the fact that it's even an issue that we have to go like, well, you know, this program is ranked, something like, bro, like the community college, which is 2008, our graduation rate is about 92% for Benedict College. So I don't really care about what it is for the masses. What I know is you give the kids the right support to go to an institution like that. They're going to be successful. We got a hundred percent at Philander Smith, a hundred percent at Harris Tows. Shout out to our partner schools. Like that is, those things are more important to me than what the US news says, Philander Smith's ranking is on a national scale. Like that stuff holds little to no relevance. We were talking about some individual young person who living so may be the only option that they have and living so will do them right. Living so will nurture them, give them the tools and skills they need in order to be effective in the community. And that joker could have been a 1.2. And I'm not joking. That's literally, we've had sick kids to living so in Benedict, a 1.2 before and they graduated with degrees, doing well, prospering in society. So that stuff is, we got to get it to Eric's point before talking about, what are we really measuring? Like what's really important for us to say whether or not a school is quality or not. And it can vary from student to student and person to person. So it's just entertainment. That's all that is, it's entertainment to me. It's all alumni to be high. But that, and that's exactly what I was gonna say. It is a point of reference for graduates, for, you know, for whatever the Rattlers will say that trustees or the Board of Governors will use, that they will say, you know, the state has X amount of schools that made this placement on rankings. So for a moment in time, it is something to talk about. But the struggle that I have with it is on a number of fronts. One, if you add Kuna to your point, as a doctor, this is important, when you break down the methodology, a significant part of it is the peer review, meaning how did another president rate you? So imagine if I'm the president of Morgan and I'm a rate Howard, I'm gonna say, man, they way low. They suck. I don't care for Howard. And I don't want them to be above me. I want more attention than Howard. So if I'm another president that can knock you down, you know, Lord, you would hope that they wouldn't. But if I had the power to do so, certainly I would. Second, so many of the metrics when you're talking about, forget it, just the metrics overall, most of them are cultivated from federal data that's two years old. So really when you see these rankings in 2020, you're looking at stuff that happened in 2018. So it's like, you're looking at a pitch of an institution that is two years old and we're claiming this is where we are at a moment in time. And then when people fall down a year, two years later, as the data moves along, then you say, well, what happened last year we were here? That's because it was looking at 2018. Wait till you get to 2020 and the pandemic, data starts rolling in. And when everybody drops out of the rankings, then what are people gonna say? And then I guess the other part of it is, to me, it seems weird. I can't say it's incomprehensible, but it seems weird that we would want to claim a spot and recalibrate data to fit a narrative. So it's one thing to say we're the top public HBCU. It's another thing to say you're 117 on the list. And it almost sounds to me, and maybe I'm weird, but it sounds like to me if I was to say, if my school is in the top 25 of the BCS bowl rankings, and I said, but we're the number one public ranked school in the bowl rankings, but I'm number 19. You going to that bowl game that's on December, Tuesday December 13th in Boise, Idaho. I'm going to the beef jerky bowl, but guess what, I'm the number one public institution in the BCS rankings. It's Katie, Coppin didn't make it, Morgan didn't make it. Is it Sour Grace from either of us? Neither one of us give a damn about it. But I, Morgan's 13th, okay, got that. You know that on top, it's top 10 of bus, baby. That's all this. You know, for me, I would just throw caution to the wind when you when you measure your institutions against PWYs, because that will also because they can also leverage that as a reason to even merge with them or close. So just be careful when you measure and stuff next to white folks, because if you don't measure up the next time around, they're coming for you. XOSU. I was just about to say that. XOSU. They going to get what they want. So just be careful. Just be careful. You know, it is the weirdest thing, man. And I've actually talked to statisticians for many years, I've wanted for the digest to do a ranking that did the schools right. So if we were going to say that HBC was number one, number two, number three, that it would be for some metrics that really counted. They're really counted for black people. They're really counted for black communities. And the truth of the matter is. I got an idea. What's that? It is real simple. I've said it for a long time. Maybe it's me, but like the social mobility index has always been like, even that methodology, if you could question it, but at least it makes sense because it at least aligns with our mission, right? Like you can be right. Like, I want you, I want for you to explain to me how UCF is beating them out at being a better, like social mobility agent for your students than a school that was built on. Do you know why? Because UCF has 35,000 transfer every year. And not to mention. And you know who's number one on the social mobility index? Harvard. Why? Because Harvard can tell everybody who makes, who's from our family, who makes us in 125,000 dollars a year, you will go here for free. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, wait. To Harvard. Two different indexes. I don't, I don't want to use, I don't, I don't want to use U.S. 1 News on the force. Because it can be paid off. You're talking about Washington Monthly. No, no, no, I'm talking about college net. Okay. The most of the schools that you see ranked on there is at a high, ain't really like the most notable schools. Correct. And you will, like in that one, in that ranking, then you will 69. See that for me is something that you would brag about, right? But I'm like, you can't brag to me about being in public HVC or anything like, like, what's your grad school and it's all employment for your alumni in their field after they graduate? Like if you can't give me those numbers then, like what you doing? Like, what, what, like, what's y'all, what's y'all ranking and researching this is? What's y'all working for returning the best of these low income students that come to school there to get an opportunity to make their way out? Like, if y'all ain't talking about this, then what are y'all really talking about? But like I said, do y'all really want success as it measures by us? Or do y'all just want the cloud? Too many of us want the cloud. It's too difficult. You know, when I've talked to the statisticians and the researchers and said, how do we do this? It's too difficult to do. Number one, because you can't get data in real time. You will never get graduation rates the year that they're posted. You're always gonna be two years behind. That's the number one factor. You will never see an institution as it is in real time. Number two, if we talked about social mobility, for example, social mobility in Mississippi is way different than it is in Baltimore, Maryland. So even if we were to compare, you know, the prospects of graduates from all corn versus the prospects of graduates with UMES, that's very, very different. All corn graduates or Mississippi Valley graduates almost have to leave the state of Mississippi to get social mobility. Just because of the industries that are not in Mississippi versus where if you go to UMES, you can go to Washington, D.C. You can go to Delaware. I said that to my students yesterday. You can go to VA. I said the same thing. So it's like, you're talking about, and by the way, that's if you're having a fair conversation about things like graduation rates. So we finally got the white man to get above this four-year graduation rate thing, right? And we finally got him to push to five and six, but we're still playing the same game because the rankings will include, here's four, here's six, but you're not even including the students who went on to graduate school or that took some time out and then worked and then went to graduate school. So you're still playing with funny numbers that almost seem counter-cultural to human behavior or human circumstance. And because of all those things, you're never gonna get a true picture of what a school looks like or what a school does. You know what I mean? There are some statistics, Eric, to your point that you could do. How many kids do you have that graduate and don't default on their loans? Meaning that they're in school or they've got a job where they can make their payments. That's a metric. Social mobility, how many of them came from a Pell Grant, went from Pell Grant and are now earning more than the Pell Grant threshold? That's a factor. How many of them are first-generation college graduates? That's a factor. I mean, so there are things that you could do, but still, you're still behind. You're still behind on the calendar. You're still behind on the geography. You're still behind on human behavior. And those three factors, I think, are critically important to understand. If these rankings, everybody come to the HBC Awards. We're we... She's getting ready to say that. By tables. We want tables, not tickets. We want tables, not tickets. We'll throw it at Raven Stadium so we can get everybody in there at the same time. We'll be back. We'll be back, 2021, Lord Weller. We're gonna wrap up this conversation and we're gonna end up with our last dialogue, enrollment trends during the pandemic. Dodgers at the Dark will be right back. Dodgers at the Dark, we're back, gonna round out our conversation on enrollment trends at HBCUs in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic. In the last three weeks, as we start to get the picture on what these enrollment trends are gonna be, there's been some stories, obviously, about enrollment being down. There's a context to it, we all know. You got students from households that have lost jobs, that are dealing with illness, that are taking care of folks with illness. You don't have as many students coming back. I know Winston, you're gonna leave this one off. But then we've also had some schools, a pretty substantial number, about seven or eight, where they're reporting enrollment increases. Some of them are as maybe a fraction of a percent, where they might have went up 20%, but it's an increase nonetheless. But there are a couple schools, Elizabeth City State University, University of Arkansas at Pine Bluff. There's one more, A&T, up for the seventh straight year. So you've had some schools that are in differing profiles in terms of how kids came back, or I shouldn't say kids, how students came back to the campus, hybrid, online exclusive, all in person, and enrollment is up. So, without the benefit of understanding every campus' profile or the geography around it, I would ask all of y'all, it's starting with Winston, do you think that for, at least for that small section of schools, that that is a sign of sustainability into the future? Or do you think that this is a mirror of a bunch of kids saying, after this pandemic, I'm getting out of here and going to school? I mean, I don't, I think it could slightly, it might be a catalyst of things moving in a positive direction. I mean, just from experience, there's been a lot of things to navigate in the midst of this pandemic and getting young people to campuses or getting them enrolled, we'll even say, because everybody's not necessarily physically on a campus, but I think it says something because there's some kids, if you look at the article from, I think it was a U.S., no, it was U.S. News, Washington Daily or something another day that I posted in the digest about how many young people are, you didn't make it, but you know what I mean? They tried to try to do a thing and it didn't work out or maybe they didn't even make it to fall in enrollment. So the fact that they're able to retain students in whatever capacity, even in virtual or in person, I think that does say something and it's not anything to balk at. I think time will tell how much, how much of a role that really plays and how much, how valid it is going forward for HBCUs and to be able to hang their hats on, but I don't think it's anything to negate. I think it's, like I said, there's plenty of people that didn't make it, especially you look at low income and minority students who didn't even make it to enrollment and institutions in the midst of all this stuff we were dealing with. So the fact that you got any institution that's saying they got an increase and they were able to, or even maintain flat at this rate, I think that's not anything to balk at. I think it needs to be investigated and maybe in two or three years there'll be a story to tell about the validity and what was done to be able to have these numbers in the midst of what's going on. Katie, you just started the school year teaching. Are you talking to your students about college and what it means to try to do this in a pandemic or what is it looking like for the young people and you're in? Not yet, because I'm having a hard enough time just getting them to do work. They won't do their stuff. But we all folk, man, listen, high school is a different animal, okay? And I understand that my school is a little different because it is in Southeast Baltimore. So my students are a little, our low income in general. So a lot of them aren't thinking that far and I don't have that many singers to really say, all right, what are you doing next? But when those conversations come up, I do say I just promote HBCUs in general. And I'm kind of treating this school year as an anomaly. Like this is probably once in a lifetime. We probably won't be going at this time. And so I'll commend anybody that is attempting to go to school right now and giving it that good college effort because it takes a lot of, just a lot of strength, a lot of courage to not know what's going to happen and walk into this arena and so with so much unknown in the atmosphere. But I think it's an anomaly. I think things will return a normal wish once we get back to school fall of 2021. But it's nothing to bark at and it's nothing to dismiss. If you're getting it right, that speaks to you how are they adjusting to the technology that we have today and that you have the capacity to teach online because a lot of schools just don't have the capacity and that's probably why they have enrollment as well. If you haven't spent enough time and this is why I love Coppins State University, we spent a lot of time building our online program and so that once we had to flip the switch, it was no problem for us. And so if you just pay attention to Coppins Tech and the way we use it, going online was natural. Half our schools, I mean half our classroom work was already on blackboard anyway. So all you really had to do was just say, don't come to the classroom and we'll just sit at home and we'll just give you the work and that's pretty much what a lot of schools did, I'm sure. Especially after they realized that COVID-19 is real. Cases are still spiking. You're putting students at risk and you already cashed the tuition checks so you gotta teach them something. Right. And let me say real quick, shame on the Baltimore sign for the story they recently did about Coppin when they were talking about enrollment being down 6%. Obviously that was gonna be expected but what they left out of that conversation was Coppin is still largely, even though it's grown a lot in terms of residential students, it's still a commuter school. So if you're talking about a commuter student profile and so many of us are still trying to work to make ends meet in the middle of a pandemic, why would that not come up as a factor in the story about why enrollment is down? Is brothers and sisters trying to go to work? You know what I mean? If they lost a job and they gotta pick up another one or they gotta do a gig job and they're trying to pull money together to pay their rent. Of course, kind of secondary to that. So you gotta, if you're the Baltimore son or any outlet, you gotta analyze that stuff, man. You can't just write stuff. Coppin's enrollment is down. All right, man, why? You know what I mean? You know Hogan. You know, they love that Hogan, man. Right, man. And it's so funny. Let me not get off my point after this. As far as Coppin is concerned, my first class freshman orientation, like to the left of me was like a 26 year old woman with a kid. You know what I mean? So my right was like a older lady in her like 40s or 50s working on her first degree. You were a veteran. And I'm 18. I'm 18. Now this is when I was 18. This is before you went, yeah. Yeah, this is my freshman year. I'm 18. I'm like, yo, this is what college is really like. Okay, well, we in the game. So, you know, that's Coppin, Coppin in particular has always been a school like that. And I'm sure it's like that across the country for our HBCUs. You know, communities gotta be patient. And just, you know, not use these metrics as a way to, as a barometer to say a school is successful right now because none of us know what success looks like during the pandemic, since this is our first time living through one. This is a once in a lifetime thing. We have to treat it like that. Right. I will say, like KD, you did just step on something that was like really important. Cause like when I was at UDC, the average age of this average student that attended school there was 28. Like that was, that was like that. Not the median, the average age was 28, right? So like that's one thing. But this does pull in some focus and Oya and I kind of talked about this before, but not in great detail. Graduate school programs at HBCUs right now, if there were more of them would be flourishing. Metro boom it. That's why most of the schools that say that they're up in enrollment is because of graduate programs. Because ones that, because what people don't understand is that when the economy is bad, people go back to school. I managed programs right now. One program that I managed, we're about to start, you know, worrying about registration for the upcoming spring. Our like current returns on as far as like, you know, applications being filled out and being completed is a 500% increase from spring 2020 to spring 2021. Just in one program. Now it happens to be emergency disaster management. So of course it's also a present topic. But now if you're looking at some of our HBCUs that don't have graduate school programs and even more so don't have pipelines from their undergraduate programs directly into the graduate school programs. Once we're about enrollment being down, well, what else are we doing? Because we already know that our students need further degrees and further education. But if they can't get it from us, that money's going outside of our communities anyway. So I think that's part of it too, where there are a lot of schools that are seeing increases of enrollment, but you're not necessarily going to see it from the traditional age students. If you're not advocating trying to get in those, those adult students who may need to go back to school to get a bachelor's degree or have a graduate school program, then you're not going to be flourishing in this type of environment. It's just what it is. It's interesting, Oona, you have two, is it two graduate degrees from HBCUs or three? MBA? Two, okay. So do you think that the black colleges should be, I don't want to say creating new graduate programs because that's a lot and you don't know what the trends will be in a year or two from now. But do you think that those who have them should be doing more marketing of their graduate and certification programs or postgraduate certificate programs? And if so, what's the best way to get to a person to say, take this and not that program? Well, just like what stated, when the economy's bad, people go to school. That's exactly how I ended up with a couple of degrees. So with that stated, like you need to start looking at populations that fit into that, which is why HBCU Palante is important. Because you have to look at those, that's it. You have to look to fit the demographic and will build up your campus, whether that be online or in person. Right now we're online. So yes, you need to be reaching out to those, excuse me, those populations that are in need, that need to find a way of making money, but can't necessarily go into an office. And right now it's getting a degree. So reach out to those different populations and you can find that at HBCUPalante.com. Hey, Oh, let me ask you this question. So this is actually a homebound for us. So on the subject of graduate program marketing, we saw recently there was a lot of controversy about UMES and their physical therapy program. And the amount of white graduates, I think it was what, one brother and one sister out of that cohort, the doctorate in physical therapy. Yeah, yeah. Do you think that black colleges should be thinking about becoming more diverse in that marketing for graduate programs? In other words, if everybody's trying to go back to school, should we maintain our traditional focus of let's get as many African Americans in here and create as many opportunities for African Americans? Or it's like, yo, whoever's in here first come first serve. So I think that it's interesting to talk about UMES because they don't have a ton of graduate programs nor does Buoy nor does Coppin. Like Morgan has the most graduate programs by far. I think it's like 90% of the HBCU graduate program at the state of Maryland or at Morgan. And I know for a fact, because I got some buddies who work for Graves at Morgan. Like Graves is seeing a large increase of applicants for business school. And a lot of them are not traditional because usually most of the grades graduates are people like Una who went to another HBCU, like Hampton or Howard, and went to HBCU for graduate school. And Morgan is just as good as Howard, if not better, and it's cheaper. So, so, so as I wear my Morgan State business hat. And I enjoy it, I enjoy it. But no, I think that it's important to diversify your program. Especially on the graduate level, because again, like, I hate to say it, but they don't have such an impact on the campus culture. Like, PhD students and MBA students aren't there during the day anyway. And I think that also it's important, because I'm in grad school now, I'm in my last semester, that schools like Morgan, which I'm obviously more interested in with, schools like Morgan are gonna do well with their graduate program because they already have a ton and they already have the infrastructure built to deal with their local communities. And we know that a lot of jobs have been lost in Maryland and DC. So people are gonna be able to go to school there. I think the issue is, we have some very archaic programs that are in some major cities, like, and again, not to call any schools out, but we know schools in like schools in Nashville, schools in Houston. Like, I don't think that, I don't think that, I'll speak on PV and TSU, they have not been robust in their MBA marketing. They have not been robust in their NPA marketing. And TSU probably has the best NPA program in the city, but I haven't seen a large focus on really driving it. And again, I live here. So you would think that you would see more marketing, you would see some billboards, you would see something and you just don't really see it. So I think that there's been a major opportunity loss, especially here in Houston because all these oil and gas jobs are gone. And some people are gonna go back to school and they're gonna go to University of Houston in their system. They're gonna go to A&M or the UT, they'll go to Rice. And I think that there's some people who maybe couldn't get into Rice or get into UH who could go to PV and to TSU, who are gonna miss money. Same thing in Nashville, people going to Vanderbilt, going to different programs. We're gonna miss that mid-tier 2.7 to 2.9 graduate and undergrad, good amount of career experience. We're gonna miss those people in good programs because we weren't prepared to, wanna expand the programs in good times but not take care of it in bad times like we are right now. I feel like it now is an opportunity because there's a whole bunch of black folks who attended PWIs for undergraduate and they would love to be able to say, I have an HBCU experience, I have an HBCU degree, I want to support black colleges. If we're not talking to those brothers and sisters to try to get them in the alumni ranks, in some respect that, like that, from a graduate's perspective, especially since you're online with most of your stuff, that's just a mis-opportunity. Go ahead, Eric, you got the last word. So one, let's just say HBCU experience is a subjective one. So I'm gonna say it's like that, so I ain't going, that's what nobody- So you don't do that? Because you're gonna bring up a conversation about weak life and older jobs? No, no, no, no, no, I'm not talking about that, but what I'm saying is that, how do you know that donate to their graduate school on a moderate? But some, I think some people would, some people would, and I tell you why, because I feel like the HBCU experience is such that even if you're not living and learning on campus, if you had the right kind of professor that really just blows your mind, even online, you would say, I got the HBCU experience. Yes, you won't- And for MBA grads? Right. Law grads, they give to their MBA, they go to the, and we make the, hate to say, but we make the most money. Besides, besides medical people, lawyers and business degree people make the most money, and they usually give back to when they went to business school or to law school, not to undergrad as much. So- And that's what, and that's what, and those programs are cheap to run. And it's the graduate programs that I feel like, no matter what they are, even if it's education, it's those programs that for those, that cohort or those people that attend, get the real networking opportunity. Because typically you're dealing with an older student that has a little bit more work experience, or at least has a little bit more, few more credentials than would be the typical undergraduate coming out with a BA or a BS. And so you're talking, it's nothing for the career fair, even for a public school system to come in and say, I need 20 black teachers, eight of them I'm gonna get from this HBCU. You know what I mean? Today, today. So that graduate program is a pipeline and those graduates will feel like, I got a rewarding experience at a black college, even if it's online, between a professor blowing your mind, or a professor really, really captivating your imagination, or the networking, or even just to be able to say, I'm an HBCU graduate. I'm an HBCU graduate. I know a bunch of black folks and Winston just raised his hand. If they had an opportunity to get a degree from an HBCU, they'd do it in a heartbeat. Just to say, I'm an HBCU graduate. Because they already support HBCU culture. They just didn't have an opportunity to do it when they were teenagers. They didn't have an opportunity at 18, 19 years old because they probably got scholarships. It was a business decision or you're from Detroit. It's not in your purview to say, I'm gonna go travel hundreds of miles to go to school. So you know what I mean? Like there's a lot of reasons, but we got a lot of black folks that we could captivate and put them in the alumni race and put them down. And they would be happy. They would be super advocates for HBCUs. So it's an important conversation. I think to the point that if this vaccine rolls out, if everything's okay with Dr. Kim Rowan-Varret and this vaccine goes well, and this thing is on deck, like Trump says it will be in October by Halloween, whatever it is, slowly but surely people can get it. He's lying. Okay, he just wants to get reelected. He's lying, but keep going. Whenever people get back to normal, the things that we do now will be a big part of the foundation of when everybody hits the door to run outside, where are they gonna run to? Because you know these PWIs are gonna be ready. These PWIs are gonna say, if you black and got a car, we got a $10,000 scholarship for you. You know what I mean? Or if you black and got a 3.0, come here for free. Got that graduate tuition grant. See what I'm saying? So they're going to be ready when the doors open back up, if they ever close theirs. So it's a big question about how do we stay competitive? Thank you everybody for listening to this, this week's edition of Digest at the Dark. Again, catch us on series 142, HBC Radio, The Pride of Harvard University. Also tune in at hbsudigest.substack.com for all your news and commentary on the service from black colleges and universities. We appreciate y'all family. I love you. Thank you so much. Again, stay tuned. If you are on Instagram, it's OT on Instagram. Digest at the Dark. Thanks again. Peace.