 Okay, good morning everyone, or good afternoon, good evening wherever it might be, wherever you are. And just to let you know, first of all, we're recording this session. And secondly then, I will let you know that please ask questions throughout. So it's important that we have a Q&A function where you can type a question. You can also raise your hands. And during my presentation, which will come up after two short opening addresses, I find it much better if you can ask questions throughout, and we have lots of time allocated for that. So again, we're recording the session. If anyone has an issue with that, please feel free to leave. And firstly, I'd like to hand you over to Joanna from the ADB, who's going to give a short address. Perfect, thank you. Had issues on muting, but now you can hear me. So good morning, good afternoon, good evening everyone, wherever you're joining us from. So as many of you know, my name is Johanna Siljakus, and on behalf of the Transport Sector Office at the Asian Development Bank, I'd like to extend a warm welcome to all of you joining us here today. So ADB is also extremely pleased to collaborate with IEA through this Knowledge Exchange event taking place today and next week's Thursday. So we'd like to extend our thanks to IEA for preparing these presentations for our audience. So this online workshop is presented under the Emobility Support and Investment Platform for Asia and the Pacific, which is operated by ADB and financed by Jeff, the Global Environment Facility. So I'd like to use a couple of minutes for presenting this platform for you. Some of you may already know it, but I'll also include information on how you can join the Emobility Community under this platform for those of you who have not yet heard about it. So let me see if I get these slides running, yes. So the Emobility Community or Emobility Platform has been set up with the vision to create a Knowledge Center on Emobility in the region to support a just transition towards Net Zero pathways. And the platform brings together a number of different actors in the field of Emobility, including government, entities, private sector and financiers, as well as expert organizations. And it's available to all ADB's developing member countries in the region. Objectives include, so we aim to promote dialogue on Emobility among our participants, build capacity, formulate a network, as I mentioned, kind of build a Emobility Community for practitioners, as well as develop further down the line and investment pipeline to attract financing for Emobility. And what do we actually do under the platform? So the activities include capacity building, training, workshops, webinars such as this one. And we will also be conducting some needs assessment research and come up with reports on the current situation of Emobility and opportunities in the region. We have a helpdesk type of function. There will be a website up with all the information that the platform produces, newsletters sent out. You can also contact us for technical expertise. As I mentioned, we are setting up a community for practitioners. So we aim to encourage peer to peer learning through that as well. And further down the line again, a marketplace where the idea is to have, to find an investment pipeline, so to say, and to match make funding between or find donors or financiers, make sure they find the right investment targets, so to say, on Emobility. Well, this is the platform team. As I said, there is my colleague Pamela Chang, who's the main coordinator of this. I support coordination as well. We have Jiwoon and Diane from ADB as well participating and then our implementing partner staff with Moshe Utsaman-Mahmoud in the lead. And how to join the Emobility community? Well, we hope that all of you will feel, we're actually having this needs assessment survey ongoing. The idea is that that will help us to further develop activities under the platform. So we really hope that you, all of you who have not yet filled in this survey will do so. You can access it through this QR code or the link below the QR code. And at the end of the survey, you will find a question whether you want to join the Emobility community. And that will make sure that you will receive emails on upcoming activities under the platform. So please fill in this survey. We'll take around 15 minutes of your time. So, and that will be very helpful for our future activities and research as part of the platform as well. And as I mentioned, there's quite a lot of activities going on. So we have an ongoing bi-weekly webinar series, these webinars ongoing. We are also aiming to present our partner, Jeff Seven Pilot Projects in the region through webinars. And as I mentioned, newsletters will be sent out. So there's also a face-to-face workshop in November in Seoul. That's unfortunate. We are already fully booked, but there will be future events as well of the platform. But in case you want to have any questions about these activities, someone to get an invite to these webinar series, also please don't hesitate to reach out to myself or my colleague Pamela Chang. You can see our emails on the slide right now. So please feel free to reach out. We're happy to hear from you. So yeah, we're looking very much forward to the presentation of IEA today. I think this collaboration is a really excellent opportunity for increasing capacities of professionals in the region and providing access to some really valuable tools for supporting EV deployment and planning. So again, we'd like to thank everyone for your interest in joining this workshop, as well as extend our thanks to IEA for this collaboration. So thank you. Thank you, Joanne. So Pir, hope to you. Thank you very much, Shane. Thanks to Johanna as well. I mean, the appreciation is very much mutual. So my name is Pirah Anders-Fidel. I'm working at the Energy Technology Policy Division within IEA, where I'm the focal point for the Jeff program, among other things. Indeed, it's a great opportunity for us to have this chance to present both today, but also next week, some of our most recent tools as part of the Delivers Under Jeff Funded Global E-Mobility Program. And this partnership with ADB is absolutely essential for us. As you know, we are very much a data-driven organization. Every year we come out with the global EV outlook, looking at the market trends, policy trends, but also a few more emerging topics mostly relevant for policymakers. So please never hesitate to go and download this report, the Global EV Outlook, which comes with the number of related products. We have a, which also are fully available both on the policy and the data side. And these are also accessible on our website. And I would say that our role within the Global the Jeff program is really also helping us with our outreach. And this collaboration we're seeing here today, but also what we want to see over the next month and year through the Jeff program is established as mutual and beneficial collaboration. So through the work we're doing, of course, we help to bring awareness on the importance of EVs, the progress of EVs, but also some of the challenges on EV deployments around the world. So not only in the IE member countries, but working very much at the global level, which you can see in our most recent Global EV Outlook. So the role we're doing within this program is we're leading the global working group on light duty vehicles and also on charging infrastructure. And we're also tasked to track information from the countries on policies and market changes. So all this together, of course, brings a great opportunity to make our analysis even better, which I hope you also feel beneficial in your countries. But we certainly may very much value the data and information we get through these exchanges. So please never hesitate here today or after the meeting to get in touch with us. I'll put our contact information in the chat after, but this is really very helpful. Then when it comes to today's event and which we'll very soon hand over back to you to Shane to lead colleagues into the presentation of the new tool on total cost of ownership. This, of course, is a relatively new type of activity we have done within IE. We have had the kind of the metrics for it before putting something out there on our website. It's of course a great opportunity, again, to move beyond policy makers, also to reach out to people around the world that are interested in EVs. I didn't say that, but of course, if you look at the visits on our website, Electromobility EVs gets most hits. And that's why we see this STCO tool as a great opportunity to communicate with anyone out there interested in an EV, buying an EV, but to also understand a bit what the costs are in comparison with other cars. So we're very pleased to say again, this is the first version of it, the more data we can get, the more granular we can make it. And of course, that also bringing back a value to the discussion on the global level and the importance of tackling some of the more challenging hurdles for either deployment, where of course the cost is one of them. And in some cases it could be a big barrier, but of course in many countries we see now the comparison is making purchasing an EV very attractive in comparison with a conventional car. So once again, thanks to you, Johanna, to Javier and Shane, my colleagues, for organizing these two events. And thank you all for joining and listening. And please don't hesitate to ask easy and difficult questions to Shane. Thank you very much and back to you, Shane. Thanks, Pat. So I only have a very, very short couple of slides to show. The main focus of today's presentation is again, for you guys to get introduced to the tool. And particularly it's an opportunity to ask questions. So don't hesitate to pull up your hands throughout, which interrupts. This is, you know, we very much have time allowed for that. Hopefully now we can hear my slides. Okay. I'm going to assume that's my slides there, Claire. If there's nothing wrong, you can let me know. And so my name is Shane McDonough. I'm an energy analyst here in the IEA and I work predominantly on transport and predominantly again on road transport. So we look at things like, like duty vehicles, but also particularly, you know, relevant to the Asian community will be two and three leaders, buses, also trucks. And but right now the TCO tool is kind of focused much on our work with the Jeff platform. Here we go. So the Jeff E-mobility platform is a super diverse range of countries. As you can see from the map there, we cover pretty much every continent. And we have users or we have participants from pretty much every kind of economic background. And every background you can consider with respect to, you know, the development of the electricity grid, the development of their light duty vehicle fleet. And in all cases, the objective is to try and promote electrical mobility across multiple use cases. So we're not just focusing on one specific use case. We're trying to present electrical mobility as a potential alternative across a number. But with respect to the TCO tool, we focused first initially on light duty vehicles. There's a hope to try and spread that to, you know, perhaps buses, two and three leaders at some point in the future. But as Para alluded to, the issue is trying to gather reliable data for what are a super diverse range of countries. Our colleagues, as mentioned, are in working group four and they work predominantly on grid integration. So next week's tool focuses not just on whether, you know, electrical mobility can offer cost benefits to users, but how to best integrate that into the electricity grid, which is really a big key challenge. And so the tool is aimed to be applicable to a wide range of users. And what we mean by that is it's you don't need a huge amount of technical expertise to be able to use this tool. It was designed to be as simple as possible. And therefore people in policy making all the way down to just ordinary consumers making choices should be able to get some useful lessons from this tool. And one thing that's important is we want people to be able to somewhat evaluate the impact of policies on costs and be asked, you know, again, from the consumer perspective, what would happen if there was a subsidy applied to the vehicle and thinking of purchasing or from the policy making perspective, you know, how can I best increase affordability? Is that by favorable financing conditions or again to this subsidy option? And also important is awareness of the technologies improving. As I demonstrate the tool, you'll see that there's an option that talks about, you know, the costs and the performance in 2022, and then around 10 years from now, because we have to be cognizant or aware of the fact that the technology is improving all the time, and it's improving at a faster rate than the fossil fuel alternatives. So I'm going to jump to the tool, but can you just, Jason, can you let me know if it's switched from my slides to the Chrome tab? Yes, it is switched. Brilliant. Okay. So something I just brought them up was Paris was talking about the global EV outlook. So I invite you guys to download the report to have a read. It talks about important issues, maybe not so consumer focused, but it talks about trade, it talks about policy, it talks about uptake in different markets. So there's lots and lots of important discussion that happens in the EV outlook. There's also lots of links to other work that we do. If you're specifically interested in the data, we have data explorer. So if you just Google global EV outlook 2023, what you can do is you get access to the EV data where you can essentially create charts and download some of the information, country specific, specific to vehicle types. It's a great resource if you really want to look at the specific numbers. And also we have the EV policy explorer, where if you want to look at what other countries are doing in this space, you can go and you can search all of the different EV related policies under a range of categories. Are they ambitions? Are they targets? What categories are the AMS of two and three readers versus grid integration? Really useful resource specifically for in the policy making space or you want to know what other countries have done and maybe how you might be able to emulate that. But without any further ado, I'm just going to demonstrate the total class of ownership too. And again, I know I've probably said it for a third time now, but please feel free to ask questions throughout. It's much more beneficial if you can ask a question when it comes up and I'll answer it and that way you'll be able to understand the presentation as a whole. And I'm almost certain if one person has a question, other members of the audience will probably have or will benefit from hearing that question being answered. And Jason, I can't quite keep an eye in the chat. So if anything comes in or if any hands pop up, please feel free to pause me and I'll jump and I'll answer that question. So firstly, we're going to start at a quite a low level. Make sure that everyone follows with us. What is a total cost of ownership analysis? And what we try and do with the TCO is try and compare things on a fair basis. So if we add up the cost of the vehicle, the cost of the maintenance and the cost of the fuel and all of the other things like insurance that might go into, you know, the full life cycle costs of running a car and divide them by the number of years we expect the car to last or perhaps a number of kilometers or miles that be expected to drive, that gives you the total cost of ownership. And what that means, this is a fair way to compare, for example, you might purchase a fossil fuel vehicle more cheaply than an electric vehicle, but each unit of fuel, be that a liter of diesel or a liter of petrol, is likely to cost you a lot more than a unit of electricity, be that like a kilowatt hour, for example. So what we have to do is try and find a way to compare a vehicle that costs less at the start, but more each day versus a vehicle that costs more at the start, but is cheaper to operate. And that's what the TCO allows us to do. So total cost analysis, so sorry, total cost of ownership analysis allows us to compare the different powertrains. And that's not just electric versus petrol or diesel. We have plug-in hybrid and we have hybrid. And I'm going to explain those terms now because sometimes it can mean slightly different things to slightly different markets. So before I go too far, I'm just going to go through the options here. A diesel vehicle with respect to the total cost of ownership tool, as you see here, is a traditional internal combustion engine. And so the difference between a diesel engine and a petrol engine is one works on what we call a compression ignition, and the other one has spark plugs. A diesel engine tends to be much more efficient than a petrol engine. And, boss, it has, you know, often higher air quality emissions. And the actual engine itself is a bit more expensive. Petrol engine then is probably the one that most people are familiar with. It's the most common engine type. I don't think I need to say too much about that. But then a petrol hybrid is something like a Toyota Prius. It is a hybrid engine, but you cannot say charge it from a normal plug. So the only source of energy is still the petrol in the engine or in the fuel tank, I should say, sorry. And what happens is when that car is slowing down, that braking energy, that energy that's usually lost as heat to the atmosphere in normal car is collected, used to charge the battery. And then that battery kind of like helps the car get going when it moves off again. And the cumulative effect of that is that we have overall lower fuel consumption, because we're able to save some of the energy when we're slowing down and give it back to the car, we have better fuel economy. A plug-in hybrid then is one step further. The battery is a bit bigger than in a hybrid engine, and you can also plug it in. And so you can charge it in a similar way to an electric vehicle. So plug-in hybrid is almost like a halfway between a petrol hybrid and a fully electric vehicle. It has the advantage of being able to run purely on electricity, but usually for a limited range. So often somewhere between, say, 40 and 60 kilometres before the battery will run out. But that does mean then that when your battery runs out, you can run on petrol, and you don't have what we call range anxiety or an issue where the car might run out of energy before you get to your destination. Finally, then a battery electric is fully electric. There is no petrol or diesel fuel tank on these cars. And all of the energy comes from charging it, be that from the electricity grid or from, perhaps, if you're own solar panels at your own home. But all of the energy in a battery electric vehicle comes from electricity. So hopefully people are up to speed. I've done a couple of these before, and sometimes we can get a bit ahead of ourselves and assume that people are more with us than they are. Next thing I'm going to talk about then, just before we get into the demonstration, and again feel free to ask questions, is what we have is an explanation of the results. So when we only present the results, we want to present them in a way that makes sense to people, that people can kind of look at the chart or the graph and understand what's happening. And we have two examples here of vehicle A and vehicle B. And this is exactly the example I talked about at the start. And as you can see, vehicle B starts off at a higher point than vehicle A, which means that to buy the car, it costs a bit more. But the slope of that line is not as sharp, let's say, or as high as vehicle A. And therefore, over time, at this point here, in around the year 2029, the cumulative costs, so every time this line goes up, we've added more costs, that could be fuel, maintenance, taxes, insurance, you know, and this line is not going up as quickly as vehicle A. So it was more expensive at the start. But by the year 2029, for every kind of year you drive there after, you're saving money compared to if you bought vehicle A. And this is what we mean by total cost of ownership. Because if we only consider the purchase price of the vehicle, we don't get a full picture of how much that vehicle would cost us over the 10 or 12 or 15 years that we're likely to have it. This concept is called cumulative costs. When we talk about where we start, this is called our upfront cost. And then basically how big of a slope that line has is to do with our operating costs. So if you're in industry space, you might hear about capex and apex. And in this case here, upfront costs are capex and our apex are operating costs. We talked about cost parity being achieved. So often with respect to electric vehicles and traditional vehicles, we're searching for this thing called price parity. And price parity is when the two have the same upfront or capex costs. So if you go to a showroom to buy a vehicle, the day that your electric vehicle and say your petric vehicle cost roughly the same, that's price parity. But in a TCO analysis, we're more worried about this thing called cost parity. So the day that the total operating costs from one repeat equal the other. And then like we said, every year thereafter, we have a benefit. So by the time we get to year 2033, it's actually cost us less to operate vehicle B than vehicle A. And in this example here, we're more or less saying that vehicle B is our electric and vehicle A is a traditional petrol vehicle, for example. What complicates this is if we have to take out a loan, which is very, very common. In fact, I would argue the vast majority of vehicles are purchased on credit or on finance. And because we pay interest on that finance, it adds another dynamic to this, and it makes it a small bit more complicated. And what we're talking about here is a 10% down payment. So that's like a deposit for your loan all the way through to when that line flattens out. So this just considers our loan, by the way, you can say your loan is paid off. And because we're being charged a relatively high interest rate of 10% and because vehicle B was more expensive, that percentage interest rate increases the cost more so than our petrol vehicle. So what this slide tells us is that the financing conditions, what we're saying here, are super important to the affordability, particularly of battery electric vehicles, because they have that higher upfront cost. So again, if I'm a policymaker, I might look at this and say, how do I make electric vehicles more affordable in my community or my country, whatever it might be, I really should focus not just on the upfront cost, but how the financing is provided. And this is when we combine the effects together. So this is, if you took out a loan to buy vehicle A or vehicle B plus, you take account of all of those optics or operating costs like fuel maintenance insurance. And you can see here that it takes a little longer, in fact, quite a bit longer to achieve cost parity. So the financing conditions have a big effect on when or if we have a cost benefit in the lifetime of an electric vehicle. So you can see the curve. If we look at it with financing included versus if we look at it without financing, it's a little more complex. It's a lot harder to keep an eye on, but thankfully the tool kind of does the work for us there. So finally then, we're looking at if we had differing and kind of financing conditions, if we had differing rates, but basically what we're able to do to achieve a result like this is play around with the tool. We have our results down here. So this is exactly what we're looking at. And you can hover over and you can see the costs at each point and it will remind you what the different power trains are. We have the breakdown of our TCO. So this is a new way of looking at the results. And what it does is it shows kind of the contribution of the different costs. So if you look at a battery electric vehicle, we can see that the cost of the vehicle here is a much greater share of the overall TCO. So the TCOs are relatively equal as I look at them here. But the battery electric vehicle cost, it makes up a much greater share of that TCO than the petrol does. And what we can see here then is that the liquid fuel purchase, which obviously doesn't occur with a battery electric vehicle. Remember, all of the energy comes from charging it. So we'll have electricity costs make up a big share. So financing then as well, we talked about, you know, the importance of financing conditions, because the electric vehicle is more expensive to buy, when we charge interest on that loan, that loan will accumulate more costs than the smaller loan that you would have to take up for a petrol. So there's all of these different things happening at the same time. And what this tool does is it allows us to kind of evaluate the importance of those and maybe say, under what conditions is an electric vehicle better or what needs to change in order for an electric vehicle to provide cost savings to different communities or different people. Some options here. So because this tool is based in the Jeff countries, so we're talking kind of developing and emerging economies. And because finding reliable information can often be the big bottleneck for some of these countries. What we have is just a select list of countries from across the kind of Jeff spectrum. We have India, Indonesia, South Africa, Argentina and Ukraine. And what happens when we change these is it changes the default values for, for example, the cost of a small vehicle, the cost of petrol and diesel in that country, the cost of electricity and things like insurance. So when we click on the different countries, it just changes the default settings. But if you don't see your country there, or you are quite confident that you can model a situation and you know how to change the variables, what you can do is click on this custom option. And that custom option allows you to impose a very wide range of values for the difference inputs. And we'll see that a little bit more in the advanced version. So we're going to stick with the custom version for now. We have today and around 10 years from now. And you can see that essentially what happens is our battery electric vehicle becomes much more cost competitive. And the cost of petrol doesn't change very much. And a small bit of explanation there is we expect the cost of things like batteries and battery electric vehicles to reduce. Number one is they gain popularity, but number two, perhaps most importantly, as the cost of the batteries themselves falls. So the cost of the battery itself makes up 40 or even half of the cost of a battery electric vehicle, depending on the size of the vehicle in the market. And so as the cost of the battery falls, as we learn how to produce them more cheaply, we use materials more efficiently. Those costs fall. But with respect to petrol engines and even petrol hybrid engines, this is a really mature technology. And we don't expect it to be able to improve very much. And also the kind of air quality restrictions that they're subject to are increasing all the time. So we have to improve the technology of petrol and diesel so that it complies with air quality regulations, which will increase costs. And so the maturity of petrol and diesel reducing is kind of balanced out by the increasing cost to try and make them better in terms of air quality. So we don't see petrol and diesel improving very much. And we do see battery technology improving quite a bit. So that's the difference predominantly between today and around 10 years from now. Other things to note that are super important or very important are the effect of things like driving distance. So if the main advantage of a battery electric vehicle is that it has lower fuel costs, well, then the more you drive, the bigger of an advantage that becomes. So if we go and we just drive 3000 kilometers per year, we can see that in terms of total costs, the petrol vehicle is lower. I mean, it should not be all about costs. You know, as a government as a citizen, we have to also be mindful of our climate impact. But just in terms of cost, if you drive a very small amount of number of kilometers per year, it's unlikely that the benefits of battery electric vehicles will be big enough for you. But the more you drive, if we go to 20,000 kilometers per year, which is an average, you know, in many parts of Europe in particular, I'm not sure about the dynamics in other places, we can see that the advantages of battery electric vehicle in terms of lower fuel costs really start to come into their own. So by the time we get to year 10, we have, according to the results on the screen, spent about 4000 euro less on our battery electric vehicle in total than we would have on our petrol vehicle. And if we go out again, so for example, if we are a taxi driver or if we're, you know, using this vehicle commercially, those benefits increase again, you know, so we're up to 8000 euro of the saving over 10 years. And this includes for, of course, you know, having to finance the vehicle, having to ensure it, having to tax it. And I see it's right out in the chest. I'm just going to jump to the questions for a second. And so apologies if I look a bit dim when I'm reading them. And here we go. Can the breakdown of cost give us the share of taxes and duties relevant to the vehicle purchase? I think so, I'm almost certain. So if we look here, this is again the breakdown of the TCO. We have maintenance, we have insurance, we have liquid fuel taxes. So we've separated the liquid fuel costs from the liquid fuel taxes. And we have annual registration fees, which is a vehicle tax, essentially, financing purchase taxes. So this is in European context, is often called value added tax. And it might be called something different in other countries. And then we have the residual or the resale value. So at the end of the 10 year lifetime, if we sell it or we scrap it, how much money will we get back? So we can, we can break out our taxes and insurance and stuff like that on the breakdown. And when I jump to the advanced version, I think what I'll do is I'll show you that you can make adjustments to those, particularly with respect to the custom option where you can put in local values. So if you understand the tax rates being applied on the fuels, on the purchase of the vehicle, you can adjust that and then you get a pretty good estimation of how the breakdown would look in your particular country. Hi, Shane. We have another question that came into chat. It was asking if this tool works for heavy duty trucks. If not, do you plan to upgrade this tool for heavy duty trucks? Thank you. Yes. So that's a great question. It doesn't currently work for heavy duty trucks. What you can do is if you're quite confident of the numbers that you have. So for example, if you know the cost of the diesel alternative and the battery alternative, for example, you can use the custom option here to compare them. But what we intend to do is expand the tool, ideally to expand the tool to cover other sectors like heavy duty and buses some point in the future. But again, our bottleneck is that data collection. So it would be great if there's anyone on the call who would be happy to partner with us or to kind of contribute to that data collection exercise, and then we can expand the tool. So it doesn't currently, you can kind of hack it to perform that analysis, but we intend to do it in the future ourselves if possible. And one of the questions, have you applied, do you consider applying discounting to the value flow? And the current tool is, does not consider discounting. And this was a choice made on purpose. Basically, if you're an average consumer, or you're an average state policymaker, discounting is not something that is, you know, necessarily applicable to the average consumer. So when we're making decisions today, and we don't think about the time, value, money relationship, I think that's much more of a commercial thing to do. So if you're a commercial entity making this, what you can basically do is use that percentage interest on your own as a proxy for your discount rate. The average person in the average business is more worried about, or not more worried about, but it certainly has a more of an impact on them is the financing conditions. So we chose here to focus on financing conditions as opposed to discount rates. Discount rates are much more internal metric. And I'm sure whoever asks this understands that. The other thing then is there's, and this is maybe a philosophical statement in some ways, but there's a moral hazard associated with saying that, you know, saving money and saving emissions tomorrow is not as important as saving them today, you know. So if we're discounting the benefits of electric vehicles because they happen in three or four years, and this is not a great message with respect to, you know, the overall benefits, you know, so saving money is saving money. And we understand that the financing conditions, and then the way we present the results should be sufficient to kind of inform people on these kind of, let's say decisions that they want to make. So it's not currently in there, but there's certainly enough evidence and a lot of calculations being performed that anyone is interested in that question can still get that data from the graphs if they need it. Yes, we have another question in the chat, like on how the Charter KPEX is, on how Charter KPEX included in the TCO. Charter, sorry, just one second, Jason, and I'll get you re-asked with the question. For our maritime listeners, this tool doesn't currently do maritime. We have a separate shipping team here at the IEA who have been doing massive TCO analysis, but mostly in the context of, you know, what is likely to be the predominant kind of technology in the future. If you have specific furnished shipping TCO questions, I invite you to send me an email, and I can put you in contact with someone here if that's beneficial. Sorry, now Jason, if you can ask that question again. Yes, it was about how the Charter KPEX is included in the TCO. Brilliant question, and I'll just jump to that now. So what we have in our basic version, and so right now I'm just comparing petrol and diesel, but let's say for example we're comparing hybrids and battery electric. In the basic version, whether or not the charging is included, it's just a simple yes-no. And in our custom and in our defaults, what we have is an assumed value or an assumed cost for that. So for example, on Irish, in Ireland, you know, installing a home charger is anywhere between 250 and 1000 euro. And so what we have is we looked at all of the installations and we got an average value. And we did that, like we said, for India, Indonesia, Argentina, and we have the custom option. So in the basic version, which is what I'm showing you right now, it's just a yes or no. But because I think we're maybe familiar with it now, we understand how the results are presented, the two different charts, and we can change our different fuel costs. So maybe I'm just going to, like what we can see here is we can, if we increase our electricity cost, that obviously has an impact in competitiveness. If we increase our petrol cost or our fossil fuel cost, it has a big impact. So another thing this tool is good for is kind of what we would call a sensitivity analysis. So it's like how important are the different things? And funny enough, someone talked about the charging there. If we click yes or no, you can see that in the context of the full 10 years, it's kind of not very consequential. I'm going to reduce the number of kilometers driven to make those lines closer. And what you can see again is, you know, very little difference with respect to the total costs in terms of if I have to charge in solar charger or not. So it can be certainly difficult to come up with the money to purchase the at home charger. But over the lifetime of the vehicle, it doesn't have a huge impact on which is better petrol, diesel, you know, petrol, hybrid, battery, electric. I'm going to switch now to what I call the advanced version. And so we had a limited number of inputs here. And what you can see with the advanced version is as we scroll down, we have much, much more control over what we can model, what we can input. So rather than having assumed values for the vehicles, you know, we're comparing now battery electric to petrol, hybrid. We have our graph here, we talked about we can understand the sensitivity. Right now, our battery electric vehicle is performing better than our petrol, hybrid. But what happens, you know, if our battery electric isn't just, let's say it was, you know, it was it's now $15,000. Okay. So if our hybrid or plug in hybrid is $12,000, and our battery electric is $15,000, this is dollars before taxes, you know, then it begins to equalize. What we have is from our default assumptions in most of these countries, the import tax is charged on battery electric vehicles is less than it is on fossil fuels and plug in hybrid vehicles. So you can see that's reflected here. But what if in your particular country, you know, those import taxes are equalized. And the registration tax here, maybe the registration tax for a plug in hybrid is the same as it is for a battery electric vehicle. The CO2 taxes are unlikely to apply to the battery electric, perhaps they apply to the plug in hybrid. And then the residual value, we might assume that a battery electric has a greater residual value, you know, when we're talking about the home charging, it might, you know, if it costs $4,000 to install a charger, then you might say, okay, in the context of my TCO, is that investment worth it? You know, do I have access to sufficient, you know, en route charging as I drive around in my city and my country? So we can adjust all of these things. Excuse me. And we might suggest, you know, we look at insurance. Sorry, is there a question, sorry? Or we can look at insurance, we look at fuel efficiency. So this is really important also. And with respect to plug in hybrids, you know, maybe we're driving us and we're not as efficient as we might be on the sticker or on the label, maybe the costs of petrol or diesel have increased, maybe the fuel taxes are higher. So in this advanced version, we have much, much more control, we can play around with things important to you as well is, and this is much more in terms of the lessons. So again, if I'm a policymaker or if I'm an ordinary consumer, what we have here is the share of the different chargers. So with petrol and diesel, you tend to have one cost, you know, so it might change by a couple of percent or a couple of, you know, pence, whatever the currency is in your country from filling station to filling station. But it's generally not a big change. Whereas with electric, you know, the cost you pay at home versus the cost you might pay for enroute charging or the cost you might pay for fast charging can be quite different. And if you don't have access to charging at home, or if you're someone who's driving patterns mean that you're going to have to fast charge very often, that can have an impact on the costs. And right now, again, we see, given the way we've modelled us, which is a relatively, you know, high fuel cost, maybe a bit, um, relatively high, but I live in Paris at the minute. So two euro per liter is certainly not unheard of. It's probably even a bit higher. And the fuel taxes in Europe are often, you know, 60 to 90 percent of the cost, depending on where you live. And so, like, if I'm looking at the electric vehicle here, I'm saying, what if we're charging on fast charging? So the cost of that will change. We assume, you know, for example, the electricity day costs, night costs, all of these things, we can change them. So lots and lots of control over how we model this. And I invite you guys to pay around the tool whenever you get a chance. And finally, then we have our financing costs. So if I'm somebody who's able to buy my vehicle outright, if I have lots of savings, perhaps on a large business, and rather than purchasing on finance, we're using cash reserves, you know, what we can do here is essentially say 100 percent down payment. And what you notice is that line now, if we do it for both, it starts to look like the example we had at the start where we didn't consider financing. So 100 percent down payment is the very same as paying in cash from the start. So we can go 10 percent here. Maybe we're with the battery electric we've been saving for quite a time. You know, the loan rate, if we reduce our interest rates, they're quite high globally at the minute. But let's say we're lucky enough to reduce them. You can see that if I just mess around here, petrol hybrid now is costing approximately 1000 more. If the, you know, we're saying $30,614 the electric, that interest rate increases from 4 percent to 10 percent. You know, that has just added, you know, two, what is it, three and a half kind of thousands dollars to our overall costs. So this loan rate here and the loan length, they have a big impact on our overall affordability. And so I think that that's the tool, you know, I'm happy and that you guys maybe have got a good demonstration of it. Some other things just quickly to point out are these bubbles here. So if you ever run into trouble with some of the concepts or some of the terms, you can click on these and it gives you some information behind the different terms, particularly useful here for the likes of purchase costs, where we tell you exactly what we mean by vehicle cost, what we mean by residual value, home charging, and the cost over time. Similarly, the operating costs, which are perhaps the most complex and the ones that would require the most amount of local knowledge are all available here. That is our total cost of ownership tool. So I hope you guys will be able to find it useful and be able to work out under what circumstances, you know, electrified vehicles, be that petrol hybrid plug-in hybrids or battery electric can work for you. And some policy relevant take home messages, like we said, I think something really important to look at is it's not just the upfront cost of the vehicle. It's about being able to, you know, finance it. It's about being able to afford those repayments. That might mean that you know, if we see there are lots of people in a region for whom electrified transport could be an option, but there's a lack of charging. Perhaps a lot of people live in apartment buildings. A good option then would be to provide, you know, subsidized public charging as opposed to just subsidizing vehicle purchase, because if charging is the issue, you know, if we see that there's a total cost of ownership benefit for many, many people in the country, but we see that the uptake isn't very high, perhaps it's access to charging is the issue. And that maybe leads us very nicely on to next week's presentation, which is all about grid integration. So now that we know, you know, there's a certain cohort of people for whom electrified transport would offer benefits, not just in terms of climate change, but in terms of costs. How do we accommodate that on the grid? That's the next big question. I'm going to switch quickly to a couple of questions. We have maybe four or five more minutes for questions if anyone wants to ask. And then Johanna, I hope I pronounced correctly that time, is just going to give some closing remarks. Yes. Hi, Shane. We have a couple of questions in the Q&A box and also through the chat. So it would be nice if you could kindly address them. One question from the chat is, how is the residual value been calculated? How does it not vary with the annual driving distance? Great question. So determining the residual value is something that's really kind of difficult at the minute. Number one, because we haven't had, you know, a big fleet of battery electric vehicles for more than 10 years. And so we don't have a lot of information as to how they will be valued at the end. The other thing that happens is the technology is improving all the time. So even if we looked at the vehicles that are being, say, scrapped and sold today, that doesn't tell us a huge amount about the vehicles that we've been sold or scrapped in 10 years time. Because if we look at, for example, the first generation Nissan Leaf versus the latest generation, there's a huge improvement in terms of the, how do you say, the life left in the battery or how, you know, the battery degradation is much, much lower. And so we may be assumed in years gone by that after eight or 10 years of an electric vehicle would be kind of like finished or useless, but that's no longer the case. So with respect to determining the residual value, we kind of leave that open, you know, and we assume it's a percentage of the upfront cost. But then, excuse me, what we do then is, you know, we allow users to moderate that. So we have, I think, maybe 10% assumed for both battery electric and for, say fossil fuel vehicles. But the thing is, you can edit this as you please. I would also just wager that because it's a, you know, it's a cost in the future, or sorry, it's a benefit in the future. And it's not very big. It really doesn't do a huge amount. You know, as we can see here, we're looking at the examples, if we ramp up our residual value, it doesn't do an awful amount for our total cost of ownership calculation, you know. So with respect to should I buy petrol or diesel, I don't think residual value is going to change too much. And also right now, it's very difficult to determine. So hopefully, I haven't avoided your question. Hopefully, that addresses it. We have a few more questions in the Q&A box. So I think it would be nice if we can quickly go over them. So one question is, is there any strict rules to decide the composition of TCO breakdown, or it could depend on the condition in every country? And according to experience, what kind of components from the TCO breakdown could significantly support to reduce the TCO of BEV, like battery cost or tax? That's another great question. So I'm just going to demonstrate here quickly, as we go from our coastal region, you know, to India, for example, you can see here exactly the contribution of those different components, those taxes or fuel costs or whatever, they change quite significantly. You know, we go to South Africa, we go to Argentina. And so when you use that custom option, and you put in your own values, you see that those compositions will also change. So it does depend on every country. We have, you know, we have the full values for a limited number, but also we welcome you to put in your own options in that custom option, and you will get an estimation for your own country. And then with respect to experience, I think what was the question was like, what could significantly report the TCO support reduction battery costs for tax? I would say from the perspective of a consumer or a policymaker, we don't have a huge amount of control over battery costs, you know, that's very much the industry is working on that. We have a lot of other companies competing fiercely for, you know, market share in the electric vehicle space. And there's lots and lots of EVs coming out of Europe and China in particular. And so the battery costs will fall, it's not something we can do much about. But if we're trying to look for, you know, policy messaging, stuff like that, I think it would be super important to look at taxing. So, you know, is there a preferential tax rate for electric vehicles over non electric vehicles? That's usually a good place to start with respect to, you know, import taxes with respect to value out of taxes, you know, because they have a higher upfront cost, if we can do anything in terms of taxation, that isn't unfair to try and equalize that, that's a really good start. And we also showed at the bottom the importance of this financing costs. So I would personally be an advocate of, you know, favorable financing conditions. And because they bring down the TCO and they do it in a way that's very equitable and very fair. And it means that electrified transport is available to more people than before. If we only focus on the upfront cost, and that still represents a very big barrier for many, many people. So we can work on the lifetime costs and make finance available to more people, you know, particularly from lower, you know, socioeconomic backgrounds, then that would be a good place to start. So I think I answered your question there, you know, financing and taxes would be a good place to start and we can we can see from our results here, that makes sense. Just one more question, maybe, and then we have to give it over to Johanna for some closing remarks. So if I just look at the questions here, how am I customizing the usage period for different routes? Yes, it's something we thought about. So this is apologies. So have we thought about customizing the usage periods for different types of vehicles? We have. So if we manage to expand the tool to bosses and two and three leaders, they obviously have very different lifetimes. The issue you have with respect to total cost of ownership, and comparing different lifetimes is for the average user, it can become quite complex. So the way we address that is we just we give people the option to adjust that residual value. So for example, we know that a diesel engine on average lasts much, much longer than a petrol engine and even longer again than another three vehicle. So we expect diesel engines to have greater residual value. And that's how we deal with the different timelines here in terms of luxury vehicles. Quickly then, a few cost fluctuations. No, these are kind of beyond our control to predict. So what we do is we assume a constant over a number of years, exactly as you say. I think even the greatest mind in the world, if you could kind of even accurately predict like the changes in oil prices over time, you would be a very wealthy person. And there's lots of people who spend a lot of time trying to get that answer. So it's maybe beyond the scope of this TCO tool. Lastly then, the scrapped EV batteries could be an input. That's a very good point. So we talk about again the residual value. If the end of life EV batteries are being reused elsewhere, that improves the residual value which can be captured in the tool. So I've got a minute over. So I'd like to hand it back to Joanna. Thanks everyone for your questions. Very quickly. What I'll do is this is the email address we use for the working group here. If anybody has any questions or would like some more information, please feel free to catch me at this email address. Thanks very much. Thank you so much, Shane. This was a really excellent presentation. I think based on the number of questions you received, there was also quite a lot of interest in this, which is great to see. I hope it was useful for everyone and the tool will be useful in the future as well, hopefully. I will be very short. Basically, just to remind you that if you have not yet filled in the survey for the Immobility Platform and you wish to join the Immobility Community, please do fill it in. It will take around 15 minutes of your time and we're very happy to receive responses on that as that will help us further develop activities under this platform. So next week, in exactly one week's time, on the 12th of October, we'll continue with another presentation by IEA, another tool. So the EV Charging and Grid Integration Tool will be presented. That will actually have one and a half hours for going through that one. There might be a bit more information there, so I hope everyone can join. As you have signed up to this meeting, you will have received already the participation link also to that session. So I hope to see you there. And thanks so much, Shane, again, and everyone from IEA for this collaboration. Excellent. Thank you. Okay, bye. Thanks very much, everyone. I'll hopefully see you all at next week's event about Grid Integration, which is, next key topic in terms of electromobility. So we've seen today that they can be met affordable. Next week, let's see if they can be met for a sustainable. Bye-bye.