 Welcome ladies gentlemen. This is the event we have all been waiting for. This is the BSC verse ETH debate I am Benton with Cointelegraph. I'm gonna be hosting and moderating the debate tonight to my right You have spinning nickels from BSC and Blizzard money. Ogle is below him from BSC gems to the left of me You have DeFi dad who is advisor to Zapper fi and fourth revolution capital and Evan Van Ness the Ethereum expert and content creator Welcome tonight. We're gonna be diving into many different topics Controversial topics that are about both chains. We're gonna have great discussions We hope you guys are excited and we're gonna get right into our opening remarks Each person is gonna have two minutes the way this debate will be structured is each side will have one and a half minutes Which will be strictly time to make concise arguments for each topic that we bring up tonight So let's go ahead and start off DeFi dad If you want to give your opening remarks here, just give us two minutes Tell us a little bit about yourself and why you love Ethereum so much Yeah. Yeah. Hi everyone. So I'm a Normally just classify myself as a DeFi super user, but I've also worked at Zapper for the last year I'm now an advisor to Zapper and I'm just about to start working for fourth revolution capital Which is a DeFi focus fund but yeah, I Mean got to put it in a nutshell You know, I've been with I've been working on or like with Ethereum projects for about four years now I also pay actually very close attention to BSC projects and I think my thesis is less about Ethereum being better, but I do recognize that we have I think Obviously more innovation going on just because there's that much more economic activity The on-chain numbers sort of speak to that or I think they clearly speak to that But yeah, hopefully we'll get to talk more about the differences because my goal is I think more to highlight the differences So that people are educated on all the different projects that you can get involved in on both Ethereum and BSC Excellent Nichols, why don't you tell us your opening remarks here? You have two minutes Yeah, it's been Nichols founder blizzard.money Before that I was a community member over at beefy.finance and then I help at PCS gems with Ogil as well Obviously, I'm a little biased because I run a project on BSC, but you know, I really enjoy the community I think it's more positive in nature than then some of the Ethereum community Obviously the the cheaper TXVs the speed You know, that's that's pretty basic stuff Excellent. All right, and we're gonna shift over to Evan Van Ness tell us a little bit about yourself and you have two minutes for your opening remarks Evan, you're muted. Looks like we need to unmute there. I know how computers work Founded a newsletter called week in Ethereum news. That's weekinathereumnews.com And I like to tweet polemics on on the old Twitter You know, that's about it for me. I live in Texas. So I like to say things like howdy when I'm opening my remarks You know, I think Ethereum is is great And I think the whole point of Ethereum is that it's a platform to build centralized applications and you know Blockchains can be a creative things as in value add and win-win for everything and I think BSC in some ways has has been that by Binance, do you think that you know users should be clear that what they're getting is a platform controlled by Binance and You know, it's pretty much not decentralized at all but you know, you know, there are sometimes higher Rewards available there and you know, as long as you understand that higher risk is It goes quite along with higher rewards then That's the risky tag, right? Excellent, and we will shift this over last but not least ogle Have yourself a little bit of an introduction and tell us why you love BSC so much Yeah, sure. I just want to say first off that I'm sorry for not being on the video I lost my mask like 10 minutes prior to the Stream starting and so, you know, that's just how it is Yeah, so so I founded BSC gems back in August Whenever the Binance Smart Chain first came out This is after having spent some time on on the Ethereum network and also spending time just working with Ethan prior to that BTC for about the past nine or ten years BSC for me is is Mostly all the good things that I would hope to have out of the Ethereum network with a couple of drawbacks that I think Evan was alluding to and so the reason I love BSC those is you have Virtually all of the good things about if you have the the ability to create projects of your own if you like you have the ability to have access to capital and interesting Interesting ideas that you might not otherwise have typically you have a lot of kind of cool stuff in a future That like we'll have a place in a future financial ecosystem. This decentralized financial ecosystem But you have it at a speed and at a price and an accessibility That you don't get on the Ethereum chain And so this enables not just somewhat Wealthy first world quote-unquote countries to get involved It allows other people in other parts of the world to get involved and to better their lives And I really really appreciate that part about it the second thing that I really appreciate as someone who runs the channel BSC gems is that the Community that I experienced on the Ethereum side is very different than the one that I experienced on the BSC side It's just and I'm not saying one's better or worse But they're different and and the the one on the BSC side works better for my kind of my demeanor I should say which is kind of a relaxed, you know, kind of a nice nice guy You know versus a little more kind of serious and hardcore, which is what you get a little bit more on the Ethereum side All right looks like everyone has made their opening statements We appreciate you guys with the brief introductions now. Let's get into it The first topic for tonight is going to be about leadership We're gonna spend six minutes total poor per topic here giving each side one and a half minutes each per person So we're gonna start this off with bringing this over to the Ethereum side So let's let's talk about it leadership on both chains whether you As we know Vitalik Buterin is the figurehead of Ethereum and then Binance has CZ as their figurehead So let's start off tonight with a question. Who would you rather have at the helm of your of your blockchain? Let's hand this over to the Ethereum guys first who would like to step up Yeah, I totally disagree and I mean, I don't think Vitalik is the figurehead of Ethereum by any means is a decentralized Ecosystem, I think it's a challenge that Followers on Twitter and other people don't but you know Vitalik was one of the founders of them You know, he is a very bright guy and has a lot of good ideas And he's come up with some great ideas, but he's like, you know Really frankly not very involved in the governance of Ethereum You know, I one thing that he was involved in which was his idea three years ago was Now known as EIP 1559 which is transaction fee a different type of fee market which will hopefully involve a better user experience for users just more predictable gas fees and It will also About half of the gas used in the traction Which will you know have some interesting effects on the total supply of Ethereum? Excellent BSC guys, which one are you guys want to jump in first here? I'm happy to unless nickels you want to pick up. You're okay. Yeah, go ahead. All right. Yeah So so so I think that it is indisputable that at least on the BSC side the CZ is the figurehead You know, he owns the company he founded and owns the company that deployed the finance marching system itself So obviously he's he's the one. He's also very outspoken he is he's He's happy to start problems once in a while But he's also seems to be a pretty nice easy-going guy and you know in some other ways and so I think that the the leadership of of The Binance side in my view is is superior for this becoming a dominant chain and The main reason for that is that first off there is a leader You know, which which to Evan's point maybe Vitalik is not per se like the leader or you know Or the figurehead the 100% figurehead There is a leader who has shown his ability to grow something his ability to manage something through bear and bull markets His ability to motivate people thousands of people to work for him Many of them not for a ton of money he's been able to take the the best parts of other systems and And learn from those and then deploy things that are better for for the rest of the people than just the wealthy folks Like we were talking about earlier. I mean, he's you know in in short. He's able to actually lead And so so from my perspective leadership is a very clear winner on the BSC side Excellent and defy dad feel free to jump in here Yeah, I think this actually cuts to the core of Knowing the differences so you can choose basically which ecosystem is a better fit for you And I I think actually a lot of what Ogil said I agree with in terms of like who sees he is as a leader The problem for me is that I wanted to grow defy we'd need decentralization and I think with decentralization ultimately becomes a spectrum So without going into like how decentralized is a theory on how decentralized is is BSC? I think it's unequivocal or we know Based on just a number of validators that that a theory on is more decentralized and so that requires The personality that we have in Vitalik. We have a very sort of selfless high EQ Sort of personality and you know, it took a lot obviously to launch the network It takes a lot of brilliance to be able to To create what is a theorems network today? But that being said I do see the difference in leadership style with CZ where he he is more of a trust to me I will take care of you. I know what's best and And I'm not suggesting either one is better. I think it's interesting. We get to sort of watch it as an experiment I obviously lean towards the theorems leadership style with the Vitalik and yeah, I kind of leave it at that Excellent and Nichols your thoughts and opinions here Yeah, so I you know, I agree with both points that Vitalik's a very selfless guy and and you know That works very well in an extremely, you know decentralized blockchain. That's that's the type of personality you need you need to work with a community and listen to to thoughts and you know of your community and But at the same time, you know, CZ knows how to monetize products, you know, he's a very good marketer He has a large social following that has built this massive massive, you know bank crypto bank basically and and I think a lot of BSE people put their trust in that they're their users of Binance So they just naturally are comfortable with Binance Marching All right, we heard it from both sides We're gonna move on to the next topic security. All right, folks, we're getting into security We want to figure out the evolutions moving forward for Ethereum and BSE which chain is safer And how are users incentivized to participate in a DeFi ecosystem when it's full of rug pulls or exploits We're gonna start this one off on the BSE side Guys, which one of you guys want to jump in first? Nichols if you don't mind just so I can get my connection issues right here. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah, no problem that so part of what appealed to me with with Binance Marching at the beginning was The idea of this, you know semi-walled guarding to where If you had some massive or medium rug pull or exploit that that that Centralization effect could come in to play and resolve that Which at the beginning was really nice. I mean we had a couple exploits of you know wine swap and We had a Venus issue that you know, that's where mothership Binance stepped in and was able to recover user funds Running a project and being part of a Telegram group you you do see a lot of users that Don't necessarily know how to check themselves with smart contracts and so on and I think that's a big issue with DeFi and and Having that, you know semi-walled guarding gives them comfort in Operating in the space now. It seems that Binance has had less of a approach to that lately We'll see if if user pushback, you know makes that come back around but That that's what appeals to me from Binance Marching and you know compared to ease You don't get that type of of course. You don't get it because it's decentralized, but it's it's actual theft Whether it be an exploit or a rug pull or whatever by a project That I think that's what appeals to a large user base and in Binance That's great Evan what are your thoughts about the security of each chain? Which chain is safer at the end of the day? What are you seeing? Well, I think it's pretty unequivocal that right now all of the hacks are happening on smart chain and not on Ethereum like you can literally go to Wrecked done to Julian Bluops Dow Dow project and you can literally see that like there basically hasn't been a single attack on ease in like two months because they all move to BSC and You know, I think that's a little unfortunate and my understanding is that you know Binance has not stepped in and gotten any of those people's money back and and I you know it'd be fair like to me that sort of means that you have the worst of both worlds where you have a centralized product which also You have the disadvantages of Centralization, but then the hackers have all gotten away with it like in the past month as far as I understand So you have all of the benefits or all of the disadvantages of decent centralization as well also one one small point which I Haven't seen anyone make anywhere, but since BS Happy geth entirely on Ethereum client they inherit all of Ethereum's well at least geth's technical issues and they have not as far as I know fixed A spam attack issue that was fixed in the last hard fork called EIP 29 29 So literally someone could probably toss the network to death a With you know, unless they fix this with like, you know, 10 bucks an hour if they know how to do the attack So they should really fix that ASAP You bring up a good point. Oh, go Do you have thoughts as to which chain is safer and why how are users incentivized in this deco defy ecosystem today? Yeah, I think that I think that actually Evan made made a you know Good point. He said that after all the exploits quote moved to BSC that means they were somewhere else before that they were on Ethereum and You know, what it is is the is the very very high cost of ETH gas makes it More exciting or I guess cheaper to come over to somewhere else and do you exploits and I remember back Back in August, September, October, November, December We had hundreds of thousands millions of wallets actually we're doing just fine and then come January We saw that any swap was launching on the BSC side and I was like, oh Christ Here we go. As soon as that happens There's a way for these for these folks to come from Ethereum over here and still still money do exploits and then take it back over to Ethereum where they're from in the first place Which is exactly what happened because because then there was a bridge that was not there was not going straight through by us And so I think that the fact that there are issues that occur in BSC right now Doesn't mean that BSC per se is is less secure. It just means that's where the exploits are happening right now Just like the prior to that they were happening on Ethereum All last week I was on Ku coins Change checking it out the Ku point and basically 99.99 percent of things on there are Just rugs, you know, and so I mean so I mean it's just you know People will go where it's cheap and easy to do an exploit But as Nichols was saying there have been situations in the past where where people were stopped at the gate They were not stopped at the gate so much by Binance, but they were stopped at the gate in in a few other ways via other Other platforms with the exclusion of any swap who refuses to participate in that process So I mean to me it seems it seems very clear to me that BSC is more secure if even one Project has an exploit that is recovered which it has and I mean I can cite many Ethereum I can't think of any and defy dad. What are you think here? Which chain is safer and why? Yeah, I think so so the difference between the two chains have has been called out here With BSC I think of it as you sort of inherit this benevolent dictator and Again like the community knows that CZ is in charge and again like there's there's a lot of like upside to that But it is a double-edged sword. You have to put your trust Into this one very powerful person on the flip side of that with the theory on when we have a rug pool You know unless you have bought decentralized insurance you have to basically just own that decision and I want to call out there are those are two very different types of people and they sometimes get mixed up too between like we You know using both chains. So if you are You will notice that people own their accountability When they are not experienced a rug a rug pool, but then when one happens We do find some screaming for help and I I think it just takes time and experience to know the difference I would rather Bask in the fact that I know that I'm working in a more censorship resistant blockchain like Ethereum Versus BSC, but I think the benefit For some users on BSC has been to look to the Binance mothership to sort of shut off the bridge and you know prevent like a hacker from exiting the system with funds So yeah, that's that's my take on it We bring up some some great concerns about the security because I think that's gonna be a huge key for both the evolutions of both chains So it'll be interesting to see kind of what happens here moving forward We are gonna move into our next topic tonight speed and scalability So one of the big things that really separates the differences between Ethereum and Binance more chain as we all know is The transactions and speed. So how does each chain plan to maintain transaction speed while scaling user growth? Let's start this off with DeFi dad. Why don't we hear from you on the Ethereum side? Yeah, so Ethereum currently is in it's in like an inflection point because we have a number of Layer two solutions that are working but are just launching and I want to call out the difference that a true L2 is more like an elevated train above a city You're still, you know inheriting the security of the decentralization of the Ethereum or Manhattan community But you're you're obviously you're able to transact that you know cheaper costs and faster transaction speeds But the problem is right now is there's insatiable demand to transact and DeFi and so over the past year we've seen there are those that have Remained on Ethereum and not touched another chain. There are those that began to experiment with BSC There are those that have chosen to use BSC end of day I think depending on like, what is your preference? Do you need? the speed and and Basically next to zero cost to transact today with some of the downsides We've called out about BSC if that's your preference BSC is the right choice for you Otherwise for me, I choose more of the cornucopia of new opportunities and innovations on Ethereum But I also choose to pay higher transaction fees and have to be a little more patient Long-term though the question is what happens when Ethereum has equivalent? Transaction speeds, you know the same low cost We'll find out what users do in the next few years. My bet is that Ethereum wins that long-term race Very good. Ogle. Let's hear your thoughts on the the speed and scalability topics Yeah, I think I think that the speed and scalability as things are right now is it's really kind of You know, there's really no comparison obviously BSC is significantly faster. Obviously it's significantly more scalable as it is As the fight ad mentioned Ethereum 2.0 Quote-unquote, which is you know theoretically going to come at some point in the next couple of years That may solve some of those issues. I think I think the problem that you 2.0 is going to run into Or could run into which which I will be fearful of is that in a couple of years That's not where these ecosystems are like the BSC and Matic and all the other all the other side are L2s Are not where they are now in two years And so ETH is basically two years behind trying to catch up to where things are today In that case and so I'm not so sure I think that probably in a couple years if the price goes down the speed goes the speeds goes up on on ETH 2.0 I mean that'll be fantastic That'll be a lot better situation But these but these L2s and the side chains at that point will I imagine Innovated well beyond that to even cheaper even faster And Evan I see you chomping at the bit here Let's I'm curious to hear your thoughts on Each chain and kind of where you see the scaling and user growth happening on Ethereum Yeah, look speed and scalability are sort of different issues. I think the first thing to say is that you know the idea that BSC has innovated is like obviously wrong, right? BSC is not innovated at all They had literally forked guess and they haven't even kept up as I said like I'm pretty sure that the like Basically life and death if somebody like decides to spam the chain they are completely vulnerable to it right now So literally they have every issue that Ethereum has in the long term, but magnitude is worse You know there that's like not debatable. I mean you look at the tech. It's there. It's the exact same It's just a fork that is behind the theorem at this point As for speed so I consider BSC to be sort of a subset of the Ethereum ecosystem, right? Like part of the whole point of Ethereum is that you can do a lot of things by bridging to all these side chains So if you want to take crazy amounts of risk on a centralized platform like BSC You should go do that, you know if you want maybe a little bit more decentralized There's stuff like Matic and polygon and xdai where they you know They're they're still pretty centralized, but they're more decentralized than BSC and then there's of course, you know roll-ups and layer 2 and and those things of course are faster than BSC for instance, I use layered sellers layered to finance and You know, I instantly you know had a transaction go through right so You know and same with roll-ups, you know, like I can go use a CK roll-up right now and I might transfer the funds and it's instant It's all a choice and that's what Ethereum gives you Excellent and Nichols let's hear your thoughts about speed and scalability. What's going on with BSC on this side of things? Yeah, I mean just add on the oldest point is You know by the time e2.0 comes around, you know what? to add on to this point what how ingrained are the communities and BSC, you know other sidechains and and else who's going to be and then furthermore You know and for DeFi to grow there has to be adoption out of you know Out of the people are in DeFi right now Whether that's an East or Binance Smart Chain or or Matic and I feel like Binance itself is in a best position to onboard those those new users And it's obviously going to be on Binance Smart Chain. That's the You know marketplace and material that they're they're providing Um, and and they they see the speed and transaction costs right there. You know, that's the first experience Um, I think also even with the 2.0. I don't I don't think you're going to match necessarily the transaction cost of sidechains or or You know something like BSC or an L2 as well so I I just think it's going to East and and I see this a lot from from, you know, what you call ETH maxis is Is they are extremely worried about? You know Is the 2.0 going to be too late? You know Our user is going to be ingrained and in other solutions as well. So and then maybe a zk roll up or or You know matic or polygon or whatever is it is an answer for them, but I I just feel like, you know east main net itself Runs the risk of time Excellent We are going to roll right into accessibility. You've heard the thoughts about speed and scalability. Now. Let's get into accessibility for both chains We've seen rapid growth in the d5 space on both sides ethereum and bsc But ultimately what chain is better for onboarding users? Let's hand this off to evan start us off on the ethereum side Uh, yeah, what is best for onboarding users? You know, I mean finance part of the way that they got so many people to use bsc Was that they sort of tricked their users into using bsc? And like that's that's not me saying that I mean you can literally go search And every wallets message board is full of complaints saying I was tricked into using bsc I mean, um, so Uh, but you know what like hey if people want to use it they they should use it and uh, that that's totally cool um You know bsc is cheap. No, like it's cool to try something out. It's sort of like a you know a centralized Option of of ethereum You know if you want to like try it out for the first time with some ephemeral keys Or whatnot that you can you know that you don't have to lose because key management is a Is a significant hurdle to getting people involved in crypto then like bsc is a great option for that and um, you know, actually I would agree with something that I think Nichols said on the last one, which is that like main net ethereum Will always have you know higher transaction costs than Like a centralized sidechain, right? I mean that is just a fact of life because decentralization Has costs right like if you want the trustlessness and the censorship resistance Then you know, you're going to have to to pay for it, you know, and and if you really want Really cheap then you should just use sequel which is known as your bank Interesting thoughts very good. Uh, we're gonna hand this over to nichols Which chain is better for onboarding new and new years and why? yeah, I mean I think I kind of made it made the point last time but uh You know, I I kind of look at uh Binance marching as And neither other solution is you know polygon and and so on as as more of the people's change chain They're they're the new people that are getting into defi are are from you know Places where you know a 30 cent transaction You know is reasonable, but a 300 hour transaction is not And and I think I think you have to have something like that to to gain mass adoption You know everybody can participate in binance marching not everybody can participate in on ether main net You know, I wouldn't dare farm on on ether main net with less than 20 000 dollars and I think it's I think it's simple. I think that's a simple conversation that um It's just more accessible. It's more user friendly and and cost friendly to uh to an everyday user Yeah, and defi your thoughts about this go ahead. You saw the time. Yeah, sorry, and I think To have this point, you know, maybe maybe there are some risks to the binance marching but uh You know the risk of making a bad decision With a low amount of funds on ether and paying a 300 dollar transaction fee is To me a greater risk. I I don't believe that Binance marching is going to just stop working one day Um, I think that's a that's a smaller risk than than other risks that you take on in defi in general That makes sense Yes, defi dad. What are your thoughts here? I think this question goes back to uh your time frame. So Part of the reason that you know defi I think has grown so rapidly on ethereum Is the fact that you know, I mean first off you you have better developer tooling I think this is a truth that's you know, everybody can agree upon And that comes from a larger more active developer community And and that has led to more defi applications And more protocols launching which attracts more talent And I would say like the thing that the the real like difference I've noticed with ethereum based defi Especially over the last six to 12 months is I think we're just seeing better design We're definitely like design has become so important to the core of mass adoption for defi and so Uh, you know, basically it's we're attracting that much more talent. I think at the moment Now long term. I have no doubt that you know, uh, bsc has a number of applications like pancake swap I think has um, some incredible design like it's just so easy to use and so I I see these these are not like you can't You can't basically like create and hide that innovation from others So it it'll continue to spread but the core of that innovation the core of Of the excitement. I think as a developer community still lies In ethereum. So, you know, anyways, I'd say right now. There's that much better tooling I've obviously worked with zapper the last year and I think zapper as We've done about five billion in transaction volume And there's a reason for that because we just continue to work with That the community that lives on ethereum So, yeah, that's I think that's anyways why I think we've got the lead right now in terms of accessibility on ethereum All right And ogle, what are your thoughts here in regards to accessibility for bsc versus eith? Yeah, it really depends on the audience. I mean, I think that d5 has 100 correct when it comes to accessibility for new developers ETH is much more accessible because there's a lot more helpful helpful communities on that There there are a lot of places people can go to to find information Um, there are lots of copy and pasted codes that you know that they can use and sort of get started and stuff And I think that's that's fantastic. If you're a developer, it's a lot more accessible to be on on the eith side If you're if you're pretty much anyone else I think that bsc is and I think that that this is this is clear I mean you have first off. It's more accessible because you you have easy on ramp Um, you have the ability to go just to buy an ads impressive button But it being now you're on the bsc network as opposed to having to find some other route You can do it from coup coin as well Two is is I think that the accessibility conversation is proven by looking at the transaction sizes If you go to something like Dex tools and you look at the last the last transactions on on different coins Try to find on ethereum anywhere where someone's making a dollar fifty transaction Where they buy a dollar fifty of a coin or two fifty of a coin or five dollars of a coin It's not going to happen because they pay ten times that in the transaction cost On the other hand, I can see here and uh, look at the same stuff like a dex tools or uh Any of the other number of places I see people making fifty cent purchases a dollar fifty purchases two dollar purchases And you can't discount the fact that that these are these are only possible because of the low fees I mean the You know, I think it's kind of interesting the top bsc countries the top countries where bsc is actually used russia turkey nigeria vietnam brazil These are places that don't have enormous amounts of money in general and can't afford to get onto something like that So so de facto Accessibility is is clearly on the bsc side when it comes to actual uses of product Interesting so we have kind of uh, we're talking, you know accessibility in terms of developer side and then actually end user side So it seems like there's kind of two angles of accessibility that that we're all kind of discussing here Which is pretty fascinating because uh, I think both bring great value for that Um, now we are going to move into the next topic for tonight the elephant in the room ethereum 2.0 All right With ethereum 2.0 lingering, uh, what what is this? What's going on with this? Is it overhyped? Is this the right direction for ethereum? We're gonna allow, uh, defy dad. Why don't you take this one away for us? I I was gonna say I need to let evan lead off on this. Okay. He is probably the foremost expert on this It would be a race of not using him. So please evan jump in so so eth2 is is really sort of a misnomer you know, there's We could go how it became eth2 eth2.0. Whatever people use um What really makes sense is to talk about what's coming on the roadmap and what's coming on the roadmap is You know this one five five nine that is going to burn about half of transaction fees is coming on august fourth and then About six months from now We are going to turn off proof of work and use the The eth2 staking system that has been Live since december and we're going to use that for consensus on for all of ethereum So there's this this idea that eth2 is a separate thing and it's not really we're going to use ethereum staking that we've been working on and been you know using in production, but In a very isolated production And getting it ready For for about six months from now there. We've already had a bunch of prototypes. It's a relatively simple Concept basically the we're going to hitch the quote-unquote eth1 the the main net client client out of the eth2 client, which is the staking client and then just like Let the two talk to each other and instead of using proof of work mining and waste a lot of electricity We will use staking the the staking system that's been working for the last six months And then and about you know six months to a year after that We'll have roll-ups. We'll have more get more data availability for for roll-ups on a bunch of different shards But at the moment like we don't really need that because roll-ups aren't quite at capacity on main net Excellent that's it super informative because I actually didn't really know a lot of what that roadmap looked like for for eth2 So that's uh pretty insightful I could talk about curious I know I wish I could dive a little bit deeper with that But I do want to kind of toss this over to the bsc guys because I'm curious to hear your insights Ogil especially like what is eth2? You know from your perspective look like and is this the right direction kind of an outsider looking in to the ethereum ecosystem What does eth2 look like to me? There's actually this this this gift file that i've seen in a lot of telegrams and it's it shows vitalik And he's like 85 years old and it's like a news It's like a news thing that at the bottom it says eth2 finally released That's what eth2 looks like to me I'm I'm sure that that you know theoretically something interesting can come out of it I mean, I mean that would be fantastic, but until something happens like I mean, I mean We're really just debating dreams right now. I can talk about eth as it is right now I can talk about bsc as it is right now, but otherwise we're just we're just You know we're talking about dreams I I I can't argue the points that Evan made and I can't argue what what what the specs Claim will happen and if they do happen, that's fantastic. I mean look, I use eth myself I'm not going to say I don't because I do that's where I started off at like I said earlier I still use it today for certain things. There are a lot of good reasons to use eth But for the regular user and just in general, I think that bsc is the better place to be and that's what we're debating really Sure In defy dad, we're going to toss this over to you. It like we've been talking about you too for a while Is it overhyped and in your opinion? Is this the right direction of where the next evolution of ethereum the blockchain should get? Yeah, my response is going to be super short. Um, if 2.0 is is really been more of just like Some bad framing some bad marketing over the last years Uh, so if eth 2.0 was always going to take so much more time and The problem is if you're not tuned in to what every to everything that evan just mentioned, which is a lot to take in Um, I would recommend there's some incredible podcasts with um From eth hub that you can learn all about eth 2.0, but long story short. We really are that close It's just that now I will say personally. I just look forward to seeing this all roll out Um, I've tried to avoid, you know telling people. Oh, it's it's this much closer But it really is it's kind of it's finally here and the biggest win in the past year of course has been The beacon chain launching and having the staking go live because we can watch that number tick upwards of validators on ethereum And I think we're around like 12 billion dollars now like About a million ether is staked Um, so so we're about to get there. Um, that being said one final point kind of going back to the last bit about accessibility is At the end of the day, I look to defy protocols to uh launch liquidity on as many chains as they they see fit as the community votes and sees fit And just let the users decide and that's been one of the cool things is to see like there's been a number of projects I love on ethereum that decided to launch on bsc working at zapper. We decided to support bsc um And because we at the end of the day said the users need to be able to make their own choices And I think we're seeing that on the opposite end where you will start to see projects that launched Originally on bsc that will launch on ethereum And I'm I'm very interested to see what what users do as as those options become available Yeah, definitely and and nichols. What are your thoughts here? Um in regards to the direction of eth 2.0 Yeah, I agree with uh defy dad. I actually read an article. I don't remember who who wrote it. I can I can retweet it uh today, but you know the idea of projects being multi-chain and Letting the users decide And the article also talked about, you know, when eth 2.0 comes out, is anybody gonna care? You know, it could be the greatest solution, but isn't not going to come out You know in six or or year or or two years Um, is anybody going to care by then because they can basically Use their favorite defy platform on on their preferred chain, you know, whatever is convenient to them So, you know has has eth 2.0 kind of lost its splash and uh You know, it's not going to create as big as the impactors. There's everyone hopes it will And she's very they're not gonna deploy on uh cardano though, right? We we're pretty sure. No, I don't know I mean Cardano We'll be on eth 10.0 before cardano has any Shots fired No, all right guys, we're gonna shift this over. There won't be a bsc east versus cardano debate Exactly all right guys, we're gonna shift over to our next topic tonight is bsc validators As we touched on earlier the biggest differences between chains is the amount of validators With bsc being a little bit more centralized and having only 21 validators versus now thousands upon Validators on the ethereum side What is the the most secure form of the blockchain in regards to proof of a 30 authority versus proof of stake or proof of work? Spinning nickels. We're gonna start off with you on the bsc side As uh as defy dad deferred to uh evan i'm going to defer to uh don't go on this one He is All right, we'll jump in here for us. Uh, let's let's handle this Let's see what what bsc what why is is each chain more secure or what's the argument for a proof authority versus proof of stake Well, okay, so consensus is is is a little bit slightly different conversation than than the validator topic As as for what i'm going to say, but i'll say that okay, so There's there's this position that because there's 21 validators that there's that there's you know That basically like they're all they're all owned by by by uh by cz And he can just call up the hallway and tell people hey, you know do this thing roll it back You know or whatever the case may be i've seen this over and over and over again And it's just nonsensical I mean it may it's just not the case and i can tell you this from experience my group bsc gems We we had enough b and b together back in january, which was about 104,000 b and b to to have our own validator In being the top 21 at that point Right now it's over 500,000 b and b required to do that but at that point we you know We had people to do that now to be fair In order to be a validator on the bsc side it does require approval From the from the binance crew or the bsc crew actually i'm not sure if it's the bsc crew or the binance crew But it requires approval and i think there's there's good and bad to that the bad is the is what they'll point out in a minute So i'll point out the good The good side of that is is basically you do have this ability to To have a filtering mechanism such that someone ultra wealthy can't come in and take over all the validators or several of the validators And then start to have Start to screw with the transactions the way that the way that you know has been the case on some other chains And so i don't really see i don't really see this as quite the issue that some other people do But i do see it definitely as a form of centralization and for those who might be um Much more concerned about decentralization versus centralization. I'll concede the point I'll gladly concede the point that in this aspect. Uh, eith is certainly more decentralized and in some ways safer Okay, you already conceded the point which is that you know, uh Somebody can already take come in and take it over because it's it's already been taken over um, so i actually looked into bsc's architecture to prepare for this call and um, so one interesting thing that i learned is that Binance smart chain is actually a side chain of binance chain Which i think not a lot of people know so there are 21 validators on binance smart chain, but all of the uh, all of the So basically binance chain ever which is a tendermint chain. It has 11 validators which are I think entirely run by binance. I think the the 21 on bsc are a little bit more You know, I think they might be Binance friends of binance, but not just binance flat out I believe the binance chain is actually, you know, just flat out run by binance And there are 11 validators and every day they choose the 21 Bsc validators for the next day So, you know, they're and I looked at the tech stack as well. There's you know, it's uh, it's a pretty rickety tech stack You know, like there's some oracles which are also controlled. There's there's quite a few points of failure You know, I think sort of makes sense why we've seen some very deep reorgs Despite the fact that it's centralized and there's not many validators And how difficult it is to run a note of course because and that's only going to get worse But you know, I I don't think ogle and I really disagree on, you know, this all that much, right? Which is like it's it's centralized and as long as users know about that And that's a reasonable thing to to choose And ogle, do you want to rebut that or nicholas? Do you want to jump in and maybe talk more about the centralized the centralization of bsc? One thing that i'll say if you if you don't mind just for one second Just just in terms of of who owns the validators because it is a point that this brought up a lot If you look at the the validator list on bsc scan, for example, you can see you know You can see who owns these because usually they're kind of advertisements in a certain sense The number one the last time I checked was owned by bsc scan You know the one of them was bnb 48, which is basically a Club of like a dial basically of people who just have a bunch of bnb cream Which is a project that a lot of people are familiar with that's one of the top ones They just take all the bnb that's in there and they they use that to vote to be a validator And so you know these aren't projects or groups that cz or someone else can call up and say hey Hey, let's do this all together. It's not going to happen. You know, it doesn't work like that The the approval mechanism is to make sure they're not malicious It's not to make sure they agree with you know with what cz how he sees the world It's not like a test. You know there's also kind of litmus test. You have to go through to become approved I just want to be clear about it Yeah, well does that ultimately I go ahead I do want to say though, I mean it is a side chain of of finance chain, right? So there are 11 validators so that choose every day the 21 on bsc So like given like how much you know finance owns at the bnb supply It is you know They do control who is the validators on bsc. I mean, I think this is probably a small point, but it is worth making And I will agree with Evan that theoretically that is the case I'm not sure that it actually occurs. I don't have any proof that that occurs But there is a theoretical risk there that is that is worth paying attention to and I agree with him about that I get Ben I can cap off this. Um, yeah, go ahead so the the the best part about this conversation is that Like it's being informative and truthful So the the you know the point of the debate is ultimately like which chain is better Which one should you ultimately use and I would argue This is one of those points actually that I don't think matters much too to any users Because I think you've already made your decision by the time you get this deep, you know down the rabbit hole You've already chosen uh ethereum for decentralization security xyz whatever Or you've chosen bsc because you need to be able to transact with ten dollars or less and pay You know a few cents per transaction or you're you know as ogle pointed out I love the fact that um bsc is reaching users in parts of the world who desperately need access to alternative finance So yeah, I think the my main point here is uh, it's so important to understand these differences I wish everyone would I think the truth is probably less than like what five ten percent of users unless they watch tonight will and um That's it. If you're gonna you need to People need to be truthful about it And there's one person that bothers me who I think is somewhat misleading at times and that is cz That's the one of the few things about him that bothers me is I think he sort of paints it as apples to apples Um as opposed to again, I think how forthcoming like this conversation about the differences are Benton is it possible if I can have just 20 seconds to just really cook. I want to make Both sides had their statements. We had ethereum guys make their last word there. Uh, we are going to shift over to the Yeah, I think let's hear from ogle. All right. All right. Well, we'll give you we'll give you 20 seconds here We thank you so much and Thank you. And it's actually not even an argument. I just want to make it make a kind of a question here So so my understanding me evan said that there are there are 11 validators on byness chain that that basically choose the Validators for bsc that's that's not my understanding My understanding is that the bsc validators are based on just the top number of stake to bnb So if possible evan if you don't mind tweeting the information about that afterward I would just like to see it because it's just totally different than what my understanding is. That's all I want to say. Thank you All right, very good Well, we're going to roll into the next the next topic here It is consensus mechanisms, which we're going to kind of fold into A little bit more here and touch more on kind of validators and stuff. So let's jump right in And this will give us our chance to kind of segue and maybe rehash some of the topics we were just talking about With ethereum being proof of work as we just touched on currently shifting over to proof of stake and byness marchain being proof of authority Uh, does this compromise network integrity? I think we kind of touched on this a little bit and then would this provide a stop gap for scammers at all Uh, ogle, do you want to start us off and kick this one off? But uh, let it evan start this one Sure Since we got extra 20 seconds, we'll let him go first. Okay I'm actually going to have to reconnect guys. So so so evan or nickles or defied out. I'll be just right back Please go ahead Evan feel free to jump in here man So I I said it but I think I was talking over someone. I'm sorry. Uh, I wasn't listening to the question because it was there time to talk I see. All right. So we're going to be talking about how Is there is Their network compromising the integrity of the network by being proof of authority versus proof of stake Um, and does this provide a stop gap for scammers? Yeah, I mean compromised. It's centralized. You know, I I think it's uh, it depends on you know What your threat model is and I think we've talked about that a lot So far on this call does it provide a stop gap for scammers, you know You know, I think that finances stop some of the The scams early on but I like I said earlier I think that like no longer do they do that because there's some bridges and you know Although it's centralized They they managed, you know, they're it's not it's not fast enough and so people can literally like programmatically get it in in the next block and You know, once it's into that bridge, it's basically Good enough for that. I'm not really an expert on any of those bridges or anything like that But my understanding is is that the hackers which you know at this point I think we're up, you know north of a billion dollars over the past Over bsc hacks in the past couple months or maybe it's half a billion. I'm not sure I think they've all basically gotten away with it and bridged off the chain. So Yeah, like I said, to me there's in some ways there is the the disadvantages of centralization and the disadvantages of decentralization Excellent point. Nicholas. Do you want to jump in here? Yeah, to kind of clarify my point earlier about that. Um, so In the past, um You know, I I think I may have misled you down the wrong path of You know, Binance, you know, stopped a transaction on Binance Smart Chain itself Um, that was generally done through, you know, third party communication with You know, perhaps another bridge or even at the sex the the centralized exchange level of You know, a user sending funds to to Binance.com Um and and freezing funds there. So it's it's it's not like they've Interjected into the blockchain itself, you know, the the transactions itself um Yeah, so I just wanted to kind of clarify that it's more of a cooperation between different projects which Which has kind of went down the wayside with With bridges like any swap in in a couple other, you know, more decentralized bridges that that aren't willing to Cooperate in that manner. That's extremely unfortunate and And it's led to more Scams on on BSC than than there was in the past and I and I hope that cooperation comes back That that's what I'm hoping myself Because I was a major appeal to to Binance marching for for some users and especially new users As far as like consensus mechanisms um, I I don't you know, I I won't get technical enough, but I don't think the average user really Either doesn't know The differences or doesn't care because they've accepted that risk on the chain that they're operating No, they so I I don't see that as a is a Very important thing for the average defi user. Um in the world is that I plan at least Yeah defi dad You're going I accept. Sorry. I pause and then I so I accept that risk That in in my book, that's a low risk versus other risks of interacting with smart contracts and and so on and I think the focus at BSC is has been to educate The community on on how to further advance their knowledge and reading smart contracts and interact with them and and so on That's like baby step one of of the new defi process for a new user. So Yeah In defi dad feel free to jump in here. Yeah. Yeah, this isn't um I kind of meant to like pair this with even like the last point we discussed with bsc validators Yeah, this this falls into a category that users don't generally know about or care about But I also I like because we're getting like near the end here I like as like I'm I've definitely learned a few things here today more about bsc I've actually learned a little bit more too from evan just about ethereum things that I wasn't even aware of and I just keep being reminded that like You know, whatever differences there are between ethereum bsc phantom polygon, you know cosmos These are alternatives to the legacy system. The problem is the legacy system The legacy system needs to be burned to the ground and we it needs to be rebuilt using what we've got here and I do think like going back to I guess this original question about the proof of authority versus proof of stake I will say like the reason that I of course bet on ethereum with proof of stake is that My worry is that defi will just end up turning into Like a frankenstein sort of thing of what it was supposed to be but looking more like legacy finance because Regulators, you know those who run the governments and hold us, you know accountable in the countries we live in those Those people are going to be threatened and I'm very worried That without the most censorship resistant decentralized sys network that we're at risk of of We're you know threatened by these people and so that's where like the the sort of stop gaps We've talked about but you know with bsc those concern me only because of those enemies out there Like if we're all on the same side of the fence, it's those people that concern So anyways, that's why I sleep a little I sleep better at night with my money on ethereum Um Very good and ogle close us out here with your thoughts about consensus mechanisms to be a cvc Yeah, and and um as as a regular user, um, you know the very knowledgeable user I can see why defi dad might might sleep better on ethereum I can tell you the people that don't really sleep better on ethereum. Um, and that would be um For example, someone who owns a hedge fund or someone who is who is um a family office manager Private equity manager They're not going to be able to sleep because if there's a totally decentralized network with no chance of the ability to get their money back In the case of an exploit or a rug then they're frankly, they're probably illegally Reaching their fiduciary duties to their clients. They're probably introducing a level of risk that that is that they could get them in trouble for malpractice And so I think that depending upon who you are and what your uses are as we've said multiple times here The chains have different advantages, but but I think that when it comes to mass adoption of regular of regular every day Not wealthy people bsc wins. I think when it comes to mass adoption of very large Um institutional or money managing type of situations bsc makes more sense I think that in the middle there, which is wealthy private individuals. I think that ethereum wins that one problem Okay, hey very good one 10 second a point 10 seconds What will make for a really interesting point? I hadn't thought about and I again, I think it kind of reinforces my concern is I want defy to truly be Uh to not be controlled by the governments Of the world. I want it to be, you know a self sovereign sort of alternative peer-to-peer finance system So, um, I I do see the point ogle and I it kind of scares me like what could happen beyond that But I think we'll find out because they're going to coexist Living up to your name. Hey, yeah, that's all right. Do you find dad? I rented some kids from amazon Good good marketing. Yeah. Yeah He's daxed We are gonna we real quick I want to jump in here is we do have a poll Uh tonight on coin telegraphs twitter go vote And this was a friendly debate tonight. This turned out to be a great informative debate between both sides Uh, but we want to hear your voices Let's see, you know, who you thought made some of the better points and and maybe one of the chains that you learned More about tonight, uh cast your vote bsc versus ethereum five minutes to go do that Right now we are going to move into our closing remarks Um, so i'm going to start this off with the bsc side nicles. Give us your closing remarks What were some of your biggest takeaways and thoughts after kind of being able to talk with evan defied dad ogle? Um, take it away Yeah, I mean great discussion. I didn't expect it to be terrible You know combative, you know, everybody's good people, you know when we're Speaking to the community. Um, I think um I think we need to look at and and maybe this is a tip More or less for the east community is is We need to look at, you know, what the the users outside of defy right now What are they looking for? What are their needs specifically? um, not only in the us or the uk or or more wealthy uh Areas but the the entire globe, you know, and and I don't think uh, you know high transaction costs and uh, super decentralized uh blockchain is is stuff that is One transaction costs aren't desired obviously and and massive decentralization. I don't think is is a is big on their list of Requirements for for decentralized finance or or defy I I think east loses sight of Trying to create this perfect thing You know in this bubble and not looking at what the uh, the the mass adoption of what people are Are going to use this thing in this bubble, you know, what what are their needs and what matters most of them? Defy dad, let's hear you I think you see you you know with cz. He very much saw that with binance marching You know, he knew what the people wanted Yeah defy dad, give us your closing thoughts here. What uh, what was kind of some of your biggest takeaways And uh, what would you like the world to know about ethereum? Yeah, I def I know I like strike a very like kumbaya vibe with all this but I am I am always surprised I've talked with a lot of uh founders of bsc projects and I I really like I I think it's important to keep a pulse And actually to try Applications on bsc whether or not I choose to keep you know my money in it. Um I You know, I I am just simply reminded that The the enemy is not in the room the enemy is out there and the enemy is legacy finance And I don't mean to say that they're evil people and we need to absolutely nuke them out of existence but 20 30 years from now I I I really do believe that uh, you know, the majority of the world is going to be transacting in uh, uh crypto asset networks and so Um, I obviously I think that ethereum turns out to be the largest island in that mix But one of the cool things i'm enjoying about bsc and ethereum right now is that Uh, there's a lot of if you were gonna like a b test do people care about decentralization security? Do they just want you know fast transactions cheaper costs? It's very interesting because you get to kind of watch bsc Running alongside ethereum and even the tooling, you know, like you can use metamask on either one. So, um, You know long term That's the thing is long term. I just wonder You know what happens, you know if evan and I are correct and in the eth 2.0 delivers here finally Um, and and now we reach parity in some of these killer features that users do love about bsc What happens then? I guess we'll come to find out. I have a very tough time believing that people will just abandon Uh, bsc just like if eth 2.0 technically if it never delivered it will but if it never did People aren't just going to abandon ethereum. And so that's why I see them growing and continuing to coexist Um, and uh, yeah, no, I'm excited for the ride. Uh, we're gonna excellent future Very good ogle. Let's hear your closing thoughts and arguments Yeah, yeah, I just want to say thanks a lot to to defy dad and evan for for for being cool today during this Ben you've done a fantastic job moderating and nickels, of course is uh, Is the absolute go over here and so I just want to say first off. Thanks And it's good to it's good to meet those of you. I didn't know beforehand. Um, look ethereum is is amazing Uh, there there's no doubt about it like the the the group of people that worked on it for the past Five years five or six years actually more than that now To create it and they have worked on on all of the different Developments that have happened and continue to happen. They're fantastic. I mean, these are these are real geniuses They're they're helping to create the future Of of certain infrastructures I also think that people working on bsc are amazing And I think that the the folks working on bsc Not just finance itself, but the the folks developing itself Although they might not be as polished as someone earlier said they might not be as beautiful in some cases as someone else said earlier They are still working very hard learning a lot and becoming You know, really the builders of tomorrow for their communities and and for the bsc community itself So i'm stoked about that I grew up in a very disadvantage situation. And so I have a lot of I have a very Uh, you know, I have clearly have a bias toward people who don't have a lot Getting access and the ability to bring themselves up to to better their lives And I think that bsc provides that it's something that ethereum right now Just simply because of the fees it just doesn't allow that to happen And so for that reason and that reason even if nothing else existed for that reason alone I think that bsc is clearly the better chain for just the average person All right, and evan let's hear your closing thoughts and arguments So once upon a time I was in a chat group for stablecoin otc trading for argentines and uh, this was you know, maybe a year ago now and I realized quickly that they were first of all they were often trading tether, um, you know, which has some of its problems, you know opaque backing And they were often doing it on chains, which I consider to be scams like frankly like much much worse than The bsc, which is like relatively honest about its centralization and uh, this bothered me for a little bit, but at the same time like if you're literally just cashing out really quick it actually Purpose right? People were not leaving their money in for a long period of time and these this this chain in particular Worked for the use case. I think the same is true for bsc. You know, I think they're like if you're You know, if you really want low transaction fees, you should you consider using centralized side chains, especially if there's you know Rates that are worth the the reward The the rewards that are with the risk over personally, you know, I got into crypto because you know Centralization is power and power corrupts. So I think we need to decentralize everything. So You know to the greatest extent possible And so that's why I'm in ethereum and you know, that's why I will continue to keep mining in ethereum and not bsc You know, I think that a lot of bsc users will eventually, you know, move Money that they want to be sure is is outside of the reach of a government or corporation They'll eventually, you know, move it back to ethereum yes Awesome awesome debate and super insightful like I mentioned earlier like I've learned so much just hearing Some of the most brilliant minds on both sides of of ethereum and bsc tonight. I do want to bring up our poll Um, we thank you all for joining and all those that have watched through this evening. Uh, thank you And until next time we appreciate everybody