 Energy 808, The Cutting Edge. This is Stank Deck. I'm Jay Fiedel. Today we're going to talk about a new office on sustainability in the Big Island with Tam Hunt and Noel Moran. Welcome to the show, you guys. Great to be here. Great to be here. So let's start with, I guess it's with you, Tam. Let's talk about the new office. What is this office all about? Yeah. Well, this is our effort to really kind of find a cutting edge role on sustainability, climate change, equity, and resilience. And the office is called the office of, I won't repeat the whole phrase, but we're tackling a number of big things with a focus, at least preliminarily, on climate change policy mitigation, but not ignoring broader sustainability issues, equity issues, and resilience. And resilience is a key final piece that looks even broader to potential disasters, manmade or natural, and make sure we're actually prepared for them on the island. So who created this and who is the champion? Who is the leader of the office? I have to know because we have a serious problem with climate change and we are relying on that office to do all it can. Indeed. Yeah, we agree. And so Heather Kimball, who is the district one county council member and currently council president really spearheaded this bill and she was great at kind of harnessing support across the county. Rebecca Vegas was equally important in getting this through. And Mayor Roth was definitely a really key member of that coalition. And I really got to give it to Heather Kimball, who is a, you know, she's also a board member with Think Big, the nonprofit that Noel and I are both part of also. And she really was very deft at pushing this through and really building a broad consensus. And so I can't say it was easy. It took a few years to get it through, but the actual heavy lifting happened in the last year and it was really quite amazing how much consensus she was able to build on that. Yeah, you're implying that there was resistance to the bill to create this very, very important office. Is that true? Was there resistance? And who in his right mind would have resisted? I'd say, I guess, as a general matter, change is always resisted, right? You know, people, some people are afraid of change for various reasons. Without going into the weeds on this, I'd say the concerns here were the annual concerns of funding. You know, where does the money come from? It's going to support probably six or seven new staff people. There's also generally, I think, a healthy concern about building new government structures and bureaucracies. You got to make sure they're really needed because they're not going to go away anytime soon once they're created. So in this case, I'd say those are the two main general concerns, but given, you know, a lot of interest at the federal and state level on mitigating climate change and looking also, like I said, sustainability, equity, resilience issues. And in particular, the timing here was driven in part, I'd say maybe in large part by a lot of funding now available from Congress due to passing two major bills under President Biden in the last two years. And so to better receive that funding, the county had to have a vehicle to actually receive, to apply for and receive the funding to actually achieve our local goals. And Noel, throw for the chairman on this. You know more about it than I do. Yeah, I'd like to add, in addition to, Tam, what you described, which was just essentially, you know, the uncertainty associated with change and also the concern about growing government, right? Anything, I mean, this is essentially introduced in a cabinet level group within the county. There was also some unknowns or a misunderstanding or just not enough understanding of what exactly this office would do and how it would relate to other offices that exist already, right? So this understanding of, OK, if we introduce this, is it actually going to take away responsibilities from another office? And I think as Heather worked with the different groups within the county, it became clear that it would be complementary and wouldn't necessarily conflict with or take, you know, ownership of certain responsibilities. So there was just maybe not enough understanding initially, but thankfully, you know, that was resolved, right, with co-development and just the approach that Heather and the team took in, you know, getting this through. And let me add to one key issue has been kind of front in the center for a number of years. Both Noel and I have been working for years on, you know, electric vehicle policy, renewables policy, general good policy on a big island. And as you're probably not surprised to hear, Jay, there's often a lack of staff and funding available to achieve what the county and state want to achieve, right? And so to achieve new things, you have to have staff to do it, right, without staff, doesn't get done. So at the county for years, even though there was a lot of good things being said and good policies being passed, because it wasn't staff to do it. There's maybe one and a half staff people devoted to these issues and some VISTA volunteers that is in great work. But this office now is going to basically combine a lot of the existing policies and coordinate across different departments and have, like I said, six or seven people to actually implement existing policies. So it's really not about creating necessarily any new policies. And those who are worried about the county, you know, maybe engaging in overreach, it's really about simply implementing existing policies and getting stuff done with meetings to do for many years now. I'd like to just add on to that. I mean, truly it's about execution. There's no, you know, there are quite a few plans out there, great ideas in terms of what to do to address sustainability in general. But there was always this challenge and execution. So this office and what it stands for is geared towards ensuring that we act, right? There's not just putting plans in place, but actually executing these plans. Well, let's talk about that. What kind of a staff do you? Will you? Will this office have? And what will the staff do on a given business day? Exactly what tasks will be assigned and what goals and achievements are being sought? Yeah, I was just going to say that there was a model that this was patterned after it's out of Stanford is referred to as the collective impact model and their organizations out there that have employed this as well. Vibrant Hawaii is a good example. And essentially what it does is it seeks to create a common vision, a common mission, a common agenda, right? So create a shared demand for something. In this case, a host of tasks and activities related to sustainability. Number two, metrics arriving at metrics that we can agree on to understand how well we're going. We're doing against these goals that we set forth, ensuring that number three, there's ensuring that the activities within the county and also within the county and outside the county that they're reinforcing. We don't create these activities and plans and policies that counteract each other or that create unintended consequences. And then two more. One is a constant and effective communication. And then lastly, they refer to it as this backbone organization, essentially roles and responsibilities that will that are going to be there have to be there because it's in code. And it's not subject to, let's say, funding or changes in administration. So those five things are reflected in the first five staff roles that have been identified. So there's going to be a director for the organization. There will be a person in charge of data analysis, essentially a data analyst, which will look at all the different things that need to be measured. There's going to be somebody responsible for communications and outreach. Another person responsible for policy and funding opportunity. So they're very, very distinct responsibilities and there will be people hired, but in place to ensure that those responsibilities are addressed. And so anyway, that's the general format. And I think at this point in time, there's still, you know, this process of recruiting and hiring to ensure we have the right people in place. And let me add there, I have to again, kind of applaud Heather Kimball on this without fluffing her up too much, but it was pretty impressive how she did this. You know, she has a background in climate change consulting and she's, you know, pretty educated in science. And she really wanted to create this office in a way that, again, wasn't simply adding bureaucracies, wanted to be, you know, effective as you achieve real things. And so this collective impacts model that Nuelga's described is basically, you know, an example of a theory of change. How does change happen? How do you do it? Well, how do you do it most cost effectively? So this model out of Stanford has looked at, you know, a lot of history, a lot of different policy efforts and basically is the time to show us how to achieve our goals, most effectively here in the big album. Yeah, one of the issues that, you know, I've I've been watching is is how many reports are written, how much rhetoric is involved, how many people are, you know, trying to do something but they're not sure what about climate change. But if you go to the School of Journalism at UH Minoa, they will tell you this is the most important story of our lifetime. And if you look around at all the things that are happening everywhere in the world, and I'm sure my list is not complete, but it's fires, wildfires and floods and droughts and kind of, you know, you name it, our world is essentially coming apart everywhere, every day. And I really enjoy when the press reports that some really disastrous thing has happened in a given place. And they never mention that it's climate change or one I heard yesterday where the guy said, could this be climate change? And my answer, you know, to myself, was, are you kidding? Of course, it's climate change. You know, we are in what Al Gore called a climate emergency. And the question is, you know, what can any given organization in in Hawaii do? We are we are facing the same kind kinds of really existential risks. One day a storm will come and it will be a climate change storm. And it will be worse than any storm we've seen. And it will do more destruction than any storm we've seen. It's on the way. And so what can this office of sustainability, et cetera, actually do to prevent our destruction? Yeah, so so the the opportunity to do do the right things abound, right? There's so many different things we need to do. It's very clear that there isn't one solution. There are a multitude of solutions. We need to decarbonize our energy systems, transportation. We need to reduce the need for energy with efficiency. We need to figure out ways to sustainably produce our food locally. There are all these different things that need to happen. And this office is intended to identify these different things that must be done and to ensure that they are actually executed. So there I my understanding is that with the with the initial set of policy of priorities that will come out of this office, there's focus on energy, transformation, solid waste, sustainable communities, natural resource management and green workforce. So these are really meaty areas. Now, for it to happen, we're going to need execution, execution of plans that have been identified already. And then more importantly, we need the public to provide to agree and to provide support. So the outreach portion of this, this part of the office is actually going to be responsible for educating, for reaching out to the community, making sure that everybody does their part. And one could argue that there's only so much that one person can do. But if everybody does it, not only are we making a big dent locally, but we're also influencing others across the nation and across the globe. So that would be one angle. Let's just do it. Just do the right thing. Stop talking and start educating people. What one last thing, Jay. Not everybody can relate to climate change, right? Or greenhouse gas emissions are all these very technical terms. The scientists know it. The educators know it. But if you're chatting with the man on the street and the gal on the street, we've got to mention things that they can relate to the heat, the storms and so on and so forth. So there's also a communication strategy that we need to execute. And I expect that the officer, the Oscar, will help make that happen. Yeah, I certainly agree. So, Tam, from your point of view, what can the staff do? The staff is not going to go out there and pour concrete or dig ditches or take the kinetic physical actions necessary to build a more sustainable community. That's not going to happen. And you have to reach out to other governmental agencies, resources, funding, including county and state. And for that matter, federal, as you mentioned, to do this stuff. But, you know, if you had challenges building the office in the first place, you're going to have a lot of challenges in getting the resources and the money and sticking to it, you know, following through. Because for some reason, people lose interest in climate change. It becomes boring for them. And they are distracted by so many other issues. You know, if you ask me for a list of what distracts people from this most existential threat in our lifetime, I could go on for an hour. Everything you see in the newspaper, everything you see in Congress, everything you see in Europe, it's all a distraction from something that could kill billions of people. So, query, how much twist, how much power, how much money, resources and influence over other governmental agencies? Does this committee, this office have and will it have? And what does it seek to have in order to actually do kinetic things? You asked a big question, Jay. Let me respond as best I can here. So I'd say, first off, I don't view climate change as existential. I've been in the field now for 25 years. And I think we are, in fact, on a reasonably good path toward mitigating the more extreme scenarios. And that's kind of what the newer science is showing us. So there's some cause for optimism there. Obviously, a lot needs to happen to get there still the next 20, 30 years. Well, since Al Gore raised the alarm in the 90s, I suggest to you, we haven't done a whole lot. Even though we know he knows and the entire scientific community knows how risky this is. So are we going to do better in the next 25 years? Oh, for sure. Yeah. So a lot of technology follows fairly predictable S curves and growth. So we have been for 20, 30 years now with solar power, wind power, electric vehicles, energy efficiency, kind of at the bottom of the S curve. We're now entering the exponential vertical part of that curve. So we're going to see the next 10 years, a massive transformation in how we use energy, how we get around. So for example, on the big island, we saw a 42% growth rate in EV adoption in the last year. That means we're doubling less than every two years now, given that growth rate. So again, we need to do more. But we're actually, we have some real reasons for optimism here. And I want to kind of address your broader question about what this office can do, what it should do. Obviously, a county office can't do everything. You know, frankly, in the bigger picture, it's going to be, you know, one part of the solution, but far from the only, you know, solution. The broader solution has to come from people in general and companies. And so a lot of that change I'm talking about without adoption, right? For EVs as an example, that has almost nothing to do with the county in this office. So the county's role here is to really harness and direct people and existing trends and funding coming down from the government to work with other state agencies and counties to really be effective as a county office to achieve the most we can in the coming decades to make sure progress is seeing now on the ground continues and accelerates. You know, Noah mentioned that communications is important. The media is important because you can't get people to do things as volunteers or for cheap unless you convince them that they are, you know, they have to do that. Otherwise, you have to pay them and it's different when you have to pay them. So and it could be very expensive if you have to pay them and you don't necessarily have the money if you have to pay them. But the individual people, you know, and especially people growing up right now who hopefully, you know, are aware of this problem and the emerging the emerging risk of it are people who could be convinced that they have to get involved. So how much of the office's, you know, work would be around communication and media and teaching, including teaching kids in school about how important this is. I'll let Noel address that one. Yeah, as Tamage indicated, it's it's an office of five, right? Even if it goes to eight, it's still a relatively small group of individuals. So I think the role is going to be to facilitate first off within the county, right? So there are all these different departments, all these different things that can happen within the county that should happen so that we can set the example for the community, including the business community. So that would be one thing. But as far as communication is concerned, I look at it the same way, which is it will play a role in terms of helping to get the right the right messages out, but will rely on the community at large, you know, community leaders, nonprofits, local businesses, the media and so on and so forth to help get the word out. There are certain certain programs that the county can facilitate, for example, helping to ensure that youth are adequately aware of not youth, but just general community aware of the you know, the opportunities that exist in clean tech, as an example, right, jobs of the future and so on and so forth. So there are things that that the count that this office can help facilitate. But at the end of the day, it's going to need to do just that, facilitate, get the right words out, the right messages out and then work with the community at large to help make it happen. So, Tam, let me ask you this question. Whatever we do in Hawaii is a small, tiny, scintilla fraction of what the world does or doesn't do. And that storm that's coming for us, you know, these various threats that are coming for us are coming because of a global condition, not necessarily what we do on the big island or in the state of Hawaii. And so, you know, my question is how much can you, will you, do you hope to affect other places and other such offices and other such resources to deal with climate change everywhere? Because even if Hawaii were perfect, even if Hawaii met every single goal it ever had, and it has had plenty of goals, that would really not protect us or the world from the effects of climate change, because we are so, we are a tiny little place in the middle of the Pacific and we can't have that much effect. What do you think, Tam? OK, so the question you asked, Jay, was, you know, what can we do here in Hawaii being a tiny part of the global economy and the global greenhouse gas emissions? And the question is the answer is the same as really for any global environmental issue or any, you know, social issue you can think of, we do our part, right? We do our part and we do our best we can in some ways lead the way. We have a really large Featherna cap here in Hawaii with the bill passed back in 2015, which was the first in the nation to commit a state to achieving 100 percent renewable electricity by 2045. And that was followed fairly quickly by California adopting that goal. And as California goes, so goes the nation. But in this case, it was actually justifiably as Hawaii went, so went the nation. So, you know, we have many ways to influence the the change on the ground and policy debates. And so in this case, this office, we hope, will be a really nice model for other counties around Hawaii and the state to follow, to, like I said, be the most effective in achieving the goals of climate mitigation, better sustainability, improved equity and better resilience across the board. Now, resilience being really important and and trying to figure out what to do after we're hit by some impact of climate change. So, no, I want to ask you about technology. You know, yesterday I saw a movie which covered the new drones, drones as surveillance and drones as weapons going on in Europe and so forth. And the proposition was that the nature of war has changed and all in less than a year by the use of these various kinds of high tech drones. And I say to myself, well, that that could happen in any area. That could happen in energy. It could happen in dealing with climate change. I know you're into AI and certainly we all know about the power of drones these days. And, you know, we know that, for example, the best inverter has not yet been invented. The best solar panel has not yet been manufactured and query whether these things will be invented and manufactured here in the United States or elsewhere, possibly even in Hawaii. So the question I put to you, Noel, is what effect does technology have on all of this? In other words, if something were designed, even just a system were designed here in Hawaii, in the Big Island, for example, that was of use, that was, you know, a game changer elsewhere. Wouldn't that be a great contribution to the global effort? And are we doing that? Do we seek to do that? Do we have the resources and the people to do that? This can be another 30 minute discussion. So I'll respond by saying that we here in Hawaii, especially here on Hawaii Island, we have the opportunity to arrive at these innovations, right? We're isolated. We're here in the middle of the Pacific. We're, you know, we need energy. We import a lot of the energy right now. We're dealing with food, potential food insecurity. We've got all of these different things that we have to deal with. And with technology, right, and technology of fairly broad term here, we have the opportunity to innovate. We have the opportunity to solve these really unique problems, unique as in island related challenges using the technology, which can then be socialized and marketed and, you know, affording benefit across the region and across the globe. So again, this is a big topic. I think there's a lot to talk about here. But in general, I think we combine unique challenges we have here in Hawaii with the emergent technologies that are out there. And I'm pretty sure we can arrive at innovations that will benefit the world. OK, but as a technologist, you probably have some ideas. And I'm not asking for a guarantee that any of them will work. I'm only asking for what you what you think of at three o'clock in the morning as to, you know, innovations using AI, using drones, using, call it agricultural technology, what have you to change the game here and to show leadership elsewhere. But what do you have on your mind? Tell us about it. Yeah, drones, satellite technology, ability to monitor methane emissions across the globe. There are a lot of these things that are already being talked about. As far as AI is concerned, and this is the very this is very emergent, right? And, Tim, you have a lot to say about this as well. I look at it as a tool that will allow us to better predict demand and supply. That's just one way to look at it, right? And maybe this is more relevant in markets where there are a lot of energy producers of many different sorts feeding into massive grids. But even here within Hawaii, we have always disparate solutions, renewable energy solutions, and there's an opportunity for orchestration. And what I mean by that is as all of our devices become connected to the web, vehicles, appliances, thermostats and so on and so forth. There's the opportunity to orchestrate the ability to say, OK, we anticipate demand spiking in this particular location. Oh, and by the way, it's unusual because we have this heat wave that we're not. We're no longer we're not usually dealing with, but we're dealing with it now. So we have this opportunity to use all this data to be able to predict demand and to predict where to provide the supply and from which source. So this is just one example. There are many other examples out there where technology can do good and not just blow stuff up. We're going to call you back on for that, you know, you've opened the door for us. No. So, Tam, you know, what about connections elsewhere? For example, if I want to build a company that engages in some heavy duty climate climate change work, I need I need money and, you know, our esteemed legislature may not have the money or be willing to invest the money and our local investment community may not be interested. What about the possibility of raising money on the mainland or elsewhere to build one huge facility, one huge company that will implement these plans that need to be implemented? Is it possible? Do you think the office might address that? I can't speak to that issue from the perspective of the county. I don't think that's been addressed yet in the deliberations over Oscar. More generally, though, I'd say that looking at renewable energy development, such as solar power on the islands or wind power, which are the two main technologies for getting us to our renewable goals. I wouldn't say having is one big facility or one big company is the best approach. I'm much more a fan of what I call community scale projects. And that also means community scale funding. So, for example, a community scale solar project would be, say, 10 megawatts. That's about 50 acres. So it's still big enough to make a big difference, but it's not so huge to kind of shock the conscience or to arouse a lot of ire among the local community. And we're seeing that happening now in the big already. We've got another, well, a new solar power project in Waikaloa, which is, I believe, 30 megawatts with accompanying storage. And we have a few more of those planned in that same kind of scale on the Kona side of the island. I'd say a few more of those and where we need to be on the big island. And then Oahu, Maui, Kauai are doing their part with a similar kind of scale. So I think that's actually on a pretty good glide path. Yeah, the other element that comes to mind is China, you know, which has a kind of global monopoly on solar panels, inverters and other equipment that goes to deal with climate change. And more and more, you find that, you know, China is the only source. But our geopolitical diplomatic relations with China are not in great shape. Do you have any concern that the plans we want to implement will require importation of that technology from China? And it may not be guaranteed going forward. Yeah, it's a valid concern. Certainly, you know, China-U.S. relations are worrying. I'm optimistic still, though, because of the massive amounts of trade between the two nations, including solar and other renewables. We get most of our panels currently from China. But, you know, to President Biden's credit, he's doing a lot to build a more robust domestic solar and other renewable energy technology industries. And so I'm hopeful the next five, ten years, we'll see a lot more panels being produced in the U.S. But I don't think we're going to see China cut off exports of solar or wind turbines to the U.S. We're too big a market. So we're about out of time, I think, even with all of the challenges we've had. And I want to ask you guys to, you know, leave a message. Leave a message with the sixth graders. OK, why don't you start, Tim? What do you want to tell them if they watch this? What do you want them to remember about this office and about the, you know, the mission of the office for the big island and for the state? What should they be carrying into high school and college and into their careers? Yeah, great question. And I'd say, you know, my quick kind of message for school kids would be, yes, we have a lot of big problems facing us. But we have a lot of reason to believe there are solutions already here or coming soon and really to think local. Sorry, act local, think think global as the same goes and really don't underestimate your ability to make a difference individually. Individuals can do a lot, especially small groups. Commitment should come early. Yeah. No, what about you? What are your remarks that you would like to leave with our viewing audience? How should they change their thinking based on the commitment of the county of the big island on this office? And how you guys feel about it? The challenges we have before us will require everybody rolling up their sleeves and contributing. We can't rely on a single entity. We can't rely on just the government and the county. But we can we can certainly do our part individually as well as in our communities. And we look for the the guidance from the from the Oscar as a means to ensure that within the county, we're doing the right thing and that that all these different actions that are coming out of the county will only facilitate the changes that we need within our with on our island and influence what's happening across the state. So the key message here is we all have a part to play. We all are in this together. We're on the same canoe. We all have to paddle to be able to get to where we need to go. So no, just before we close here, I want to ask you and Tan the same question. That is, why are you involved in this? What makes you passionate about it? How long will you remain passionate about it? How integrated is it with your life and your career going forward? I'll go. Yeah, go ahead. I've got kids and grandkids. And everything that I do here with this organization, with Think Big, with Hawaii B, with Sustainable Energy Hawaii, I'm on the board of a number of local organizations, nonprofits, all volunteer. And my my personal mission is to ensure that I do my part to ensure that our our Kiki, my kids, grandkids and all the kids out there for future generations will have a livable world. So for me, it's, you know, it's it's an obligation. And it's something that I have the resources to do and the time remaining to do it within. And and that's my that's my key motivation for what I do. And, Tan, do you care as much or more than Noel does? Hard to compare exactly, but I think we care equally. So I've been involved with climate and sustainability issues now for 25, 30 years. I've been an attorney for 22 years. And like Noel, I'm on a few different boards locally, including Think Big and Hawaii B. And I do this because I am compelled to do what I can as an individual to help solve problems I see in the world around me. And I really do believe fully in what I mentioned earlier, which is cliche, but true that small groups of individuals can do a lot to achieve positive change when we're doing it. Thank you, Tan. Thank you Noel. Marco Mangelsdorf would be pleased and delighted to to hear all of your comments today, and I'm sure he is appreciative of your participation in the show. And so am I. Aloha. Mahalo.