 Very good morning to you, wherever you may be joining us and if you're in the room and good morning to our panel. Overtourism were full. I can already see the Swiss gentleman here shaking his head and Tony will be having a conjecture before we're finished on the idea of overtourism. No such thing. You can see how this is going to go. A very warm welcome to the discussion on overtourism. The thing about overtourism is nobody really wants to deal with it because to deal with overtourism is to sort of have to deal with the dirty little secret that the industry is the most favorite industry in the world but is having phenomenal difficulty handling its growth. And with me Stephen Colton, the General Secretary of the International Transport Workers Federation, that's a mouthful. You're going to give us the workers' view, are you? I am, so thank you Richard. For us, I think we have to recognise pre-pandemic we had some infrastructure challenges and so we represent transport workers but we're also recognised through the pandemic. We need to build a better relationship with the stakeholders about what do we aspire to have? But come on, at the end of the day, more tourism, more jobs, more members, better for you all. Yes. Right, there we go then. But with standards, with structure, with development, with the right image, so the reality is we all have, you know, you're the best advert for travel, the reality is you have to build the infrastructure, you have to make sure there's a distribution between capital and the workers and we see the expansion into the other continents of the world. So at the moment you can fly so many times a day from London to New York. But what about Africa? What about other places? And how do we make sure first the standards of the transport people are global? Safety is the key issue. And then when it comes to tourism it's hospitality. And we all know we're struggling to recruit people into hospitality. We're going to talk about that because I'm, well, we'll come to this in a second. Jenin Sun, the CEO of Trip.com, arguably you're part of the problem. I mean, if it wasn't such a good app and website, if it didn't have so many hundreds of thousands of offers, people wouldn't travel as much. If we don't have car, we're still riding horses but we cannot stop the train. That's one way of looking at it. But you can only do so much for so long before we have to have fundamental change. Would you agree? Yeah, I think the best way to address the overtourism is really promoting the long-tail destination like Tony did. We attended a meeting with the Mongolian travel bureau. Every year such a big country, they only have 700,000 people visiting them. Right, but they can't cope with too many more. They don't have either, they don't have either the air infrastructure or, and Tony will come to that in a second, either the air infrastructure, the hotel numbers or the transportation infrastructure to move people around the country. If there is a demand, the free market will enable entrepreneurs to build, but demand is important. That's fascinating. That's sort of a, that's the opposite of if you build it, they will come. That's saying they will come and we better build it. Let's talk to the acting chief executive of Brand South Africa. You've got the bulk of African tourism. Absolutely. You've got multiple destinations and you've done a better job than most at shifting people around the country, but that's more by accident than by design. No, no, it's intentional. Well, you say that, but I mean, you know, the Kruger's in the north, the Cape is on the west, the other Cape's on the east and Joe Berg's in the middle. Absolutely. It's intentional. That's the strategy. You come to one of a kind country where you can do hell of a lot in few hours. You can go to the coastal area, you go to the big five. It's in the middle of three hours movement. So we did it deliberately, but also to empower people across South Africa, across all provinces. So the strategy, I mean, for us, tourism is very big. We're talking about a 6.4 contribution to the GDP and annually 1.1 million jobs. And you know that's our challenge. Some people would say it's more than 6% of GDP. If you look at the indirect and indirect, the unmeasured ones, absolutely. But it is a critical and a strategic market for us. Hence the point is to build more demand and create more awareness. Tony, you really are the problem. Let's do it this way. How many new routes will your various airlines open this year? About 42 this year. I mean, we started 20 odd years ago with two planes. We've grown to 240. We went through COVID. I think just going through Jane's point, one of the things we did 60% of our routes were routes that were never done before. So it's not about everyone going to Bali or everyone going to Phuket. We opened routes that were never done before. So part of the solution in overtourism is rerouting people to new markets such as we just mentioned in Mongolia, etc. In China, for instance, most people look at China as people leaving China and the mass amount of tourism. But in Asia, we brought 40% of people that came into China. Because China is a huge tourist inbound market as well. But many airlines don't promote those destinations. Why do you think that is? I mean, there are certain visa difficulties and putting aside the COVID issues. Why do you think that is? It's easy to focus on the outbound market. Much harder to go and promote Xi'an or Guangzhou, etc. So we saw a huge opportunity in that. I think the other thing about overtourism is education to the tourists coming in. You know, airlines such as ours or websites can educate the inbound tourists on protecting the environment. And I think more and more people are doing that. I don't see overtourism as a real issue. If you were to spread the tourism around a bit better, and you were to educate people as well. And sustainability is not just by the environment. It's, you know, in terms of carbon, but it's also in terms of protecting the environments that you're going to as well. So the story I was going to tell earlier is I started traveling pretty quickly after COVID. I mean, in 20, I was on the road again by June because we had things to cover. And then in July, I remember being in Prague, you know, when it was mission accomplished until they all went funny. And then back to Venice when things reopened. And it was just as if nothing had changed. It was packed. Absolutely packed to the rafters. And then when Dubrovnik in Croatia, when the first cruise ship arrived, I was there. Packed. So did we miss a chance during the pandemic to make fundamental change? You know, the pandemic, bad though it was, but it was the equivalent of control, alt, delete for tourism. And all we did was reboot with the same problems in the software. Fully agree. I think the reality is certainly in air transportation. We lost a lot of good people with a lot of experience. And I think everybody who's travelled since then has experienced lost bags and challenges. And we're working with the ground handling companies to try to make sure that we bring people in and retain them. So the question more, and this comes more to the tourism. And again, you know, we're in Davos and we can imagine how seasonal the input of all the people are this week. It's the method of employment in some senses. So there's a conversation when we look in Europe, you know, it's not unusual. We cover the cruise ships. We cover the ferries in Greece. They work in the summer in the winter. They work ashore in restaurants and different. So we have to look at what we're doing for that. And then I think, certainly when we talk about young people, do young people aspire to be in hospitality? And that's a challenge for all of us. How do we make sure it's a good job? We're the cruise market growing, growing, growing. We're having to recruit. We recruit primarily from the global south. And these are opportunities for distribution of wealth. But it's also how do we build an attraction to these jobs? Because many of the hotels you visit, right, probably don't provide the same services before. So what changes to them? Did you make in South Africa post pre pandemic? What are you doing? What's the number one way to avoid over tourism in that sense? You know, I wish we had over tourism, but but we don't. Okay, what we do have and what you have possibly experience is seasonal tourism, where we get an influx, but we are addressing that because there are mechanisms that you can use in place. For instance, you know, adopting to the digital world and transforming your booking system, that is what is currently underway. I'll tell you about the collaboration we have currently with Google, which is a public and private to protect number one, tourists and number two, to make sure that we empower, you know, our SMM is by taking those that are not known and bringing them up to the floor. But at the end of the day, Antonia would probably forcefully say this, the consumer will go when the consumer wants to travel. Not quite in South Africa. The consumer goes where they want to travel until they listen to one of us. And then there's a paradigm shift. You're not going to go to Cape Town in the winter. You can. Why not? There's an ample of wine. What are you talking about? I'm going to keep you warm. Because if you're coming from the Northern Hemisphere. Of course. But our winter is nothing compared to any other country. He is talking about the maximum of 15, by the way. Yeah. So another thing we can do better is the promotion of the long tail destination. What do you mean by long tail? Just for example, everyone knows about Egypt, New York, London, right? But in a remote side where people are beautiful scenery, nobody have been to. So as a tourism board, we need to do a better job. In the past, we don't have the technology to do that. Now with the videos, with the KLLs, a lot of long tail destinations are much better prepared to host the customers. The problem with that, and I hate to sort of be sort of the person who sits here and pours water on everything, but is you've got to get people to want to go there. Yeah. And they want to see the famous things first. First trip. First trip. You want to go and see the canals of Venice, the Parthenon, and even those countries that have tried it have found it very difficult. So, classic case, Thailand. Ten years ago. I mean, Thailand was the first country that went big on the numbers. We're going to get the numbers. And then once they got the numbers, they said, now we're going to have to improve the quality of the tourist. In other words, we want expensive Australian tourists. And now we're going to shift people to different parts of the country. This first thing, which is your point, isn't it? But it's not really worked. I think it's not going to be overnight. But efforts need to be persistent. For example, in Japan, everyone will go to Tokyo, Niseiko, Kyoto. But many of our customers go to Japan 12 times a year. Now they start to explore the beautiful Fuji mountain, do hikings, go to the national park. There are more than 20 national parks over there. And gradually, people start to go to remote areas. It can be done. It's not going to be overnight. But we need to put the concerted efforts in promoting these long tail destinations. But that's not happening. In a sense, the industry is still obsessed with numbers. Tony is doing quite a lot. He is flying to these travel destinations that not very popular. I think there are two things here. One is I'm actually wondering what is the problems of over tourism. Infrastructure, environment, what damage to the culture? No one has really quantified that to me as to what it is. Two is the market solves itself. If you go to a place and there are millions of people and it's really uncomfortable, you're not going to go. But just picking up a point here and Niseiko, for instance, was known as a traditional ski resort. But we worked with the Japanese tourism board to make it a year-long destination. In the summer Niseiko is as beautiful as in the winter. And so we went on a daily flight. So I think one thing the market eventually will sort itself out because if it's a very unpleasant place to visit because there are too many people no one's going to go and they'll spread out to different versions. Airlines such as ours and others will have to provide connectivity to other places, which is one. Two is there is a seasonal aspect. I don't feel there is an over tourism for the whole year, maybe in bits in the summer or winter, etc. But also, as I said, the Thailand, for instance, as you just mentioned, they're actually going gangbusters again. They're opening bars still five in the morning, they've got rid of visas. So there's no effects of over tourism in Bangkok, which is a biggest place, or Phuket, where they're building your airports. But I ultimately feel the consumer will decide whether this is a horrible place to go to because the country hasn't done its efforts in making it a better place and go somewhere else. Well, yes, but the consumer will decide but you've got a consumer that's an experienced travel consumer. You've got a people once a year and you've got the newbie. And the newbie will maybe go by price, which you will lower prices, so you'll get more people there. And really, we're talking about the damage done to the resort as much as the experience of, I mean, you're right, if you have a shitty experience in a place, you're not going to go back. And you'll have regretted going there in the first place and before long, all your comments on trip.com will say just that and people won't go. But the damage to the resort and to his members. But that's what I ascribe to that education and working with the local communities to explain what is important in that part of the world. You know, I had my first trip to Tanzania and we're about to fly there. And the education we received on what we should do, what we shouldn't do, was very good because, you know, coming from Southeast Asia, I had no idea. So, yes, I think that's a fair point on the damage when you bring millions of tourists to a new resort. You run the risk of lots of damage from, from waste to degradation, etc. So that I do agree that we can all do a better job educating that and working with the local communities. The problem is you can't put the travel genie back in the bottle in a sense, particularly post pandemic where, you know, the bucket list, the experience, everybody, until the money runs out, everybody wants to keep traveling. So I wonder if you have to start thinking more dramatically and drastically. Permits, charging, obviously the visa regime making it easier, timed entries, all those sorts of things. Yeah, absolutely. I think we should take a very balanced view. If we have no management for the travel destination, it will be overcrowded. The user's experience will not be very good. But if we push too far, for example, the one extreme case is three years of lockdown. Nobody travel, right? The tourism, there is no over tourism at all, but it's not going to work. So we need to find a way that demand and supply can eventually gradually grow side by side and technology can play a very good role. So you end up with Venice or Amsterdam banning cruise ships. Yes. That sort of doesn't really help your members. Well, we work quite closely with most of the cruise companies and we did a lot of work with them in the pandemic. Moving crew back from the ships was a challenge. But the reality is there's a lot of venues. It depends on the size of the ship. And I think if we want to be very rounded about it, we have to have a multi-stakeholder approach to it because the distribution of wealth, the creation of good jobs has to be part of the conversation. The reality is business travel was recovered way quicker than we anticipated. We work with most, nearly all of the major airlines and the reality is they have union representation, we have conversations. But I think tourism is also the experience and you're very right as different sectors and as different markets. But it could also be part of the marketing that you have an infrastructure, that you have a partnership between government companies and unions because for us, we see Africa will grow. It's impossible not to. 2018 we left our big convention and we thought civil aviation was going to boom. It took a terrible hit through those three years. We're nearly back to pre-pandemic figures and the order book is enormous. So they have to run a good business. They have to have good social packages for people. But we have still seen a weakness in the hospitality, in the hotels, in the services to get people into the business. Different people bring people from other parts of the world but in reality in Africa there are plenty of clever inspirational people that should be part of the process and we need to look at that for everybody. He's quite right but you know I wish, I think our scenario is quite unique in that from a services perspective, for those that have been by the way to South Africa, you ask one person, what is it about South Africa? And they'll tell you Richard, it's about the service, it's the warmth and friendliness of people. So we have a youth, 60 percent odd youth that wants to be in the tourism and the hospitality industry and right now the interventions are in place to train those people and make sure it's an inclusive growth that benefits not only the elitists but only people that are also from the bottom up. So we are using a bottom up and the top down approach and I think that is what will set us apart. Richard just going to your point, I mean there is validity in certain places in saying you know you need permits, you need certain times to go, Bhutan for instance, you know it has certain numbers of people can go, certain caves and certain natural reserves need control but I think some of the decisions made are populist by politicians and should be left to the market. So there is a balance and I think that's the key and overreaction sometimes will lead to the loss of jobs. In fact turn it back, everyone's hysterical about making sure every airline has sustainable aviation fuel but where are we going to get it from? And the cost of sustainable aviation fuel is about 10 times the price, very expensive oil price. So how are you going to get to your net zero? Well we won't, not for a while. I mean and I think this greenwashing is also, we all have to do, we rely on the engine providers, we rely on sustainable aviation fuel and then we talk about taxing our passengers, a green tax, but then I keep looking for projects in my part of the world to put those carbon credits into. You know Corsair will come up with a bunch of regulations so there's no one in Southeast Asia can actually make those projects. So there's lots of gaps in here that I'm saying, you know the airline industry, the tourism industry comes in for a lot of negative flak when actually it's probably one of the best earners and probably one of the best ways of generating wealth and the hysteria is over small bits and pieces I think South African point is very valid and as we all get you know Visa and Mastercard did studies that travel is still the number one discretionary spend, a side of Covid. Yes, certain areas can manage its place better by distributing its tourists, but I think people want to travel and the market will eventually sort itself out but we shouldn't be hysterical and make populist decisions such as that. So like nightmares, I mean nightmares as opposed to nightmares. Yeah. Mares who look after the night, MAY or OS which I see Barcelona's just introduced to make it sort of more habitable and palatable in a place, but let me just... The better ways of managing it than banning is my point. So yesterday we had a meeting with all the governors who are very involved in the travel industry. If you travel around the world the shortage of the labourers is prevailing. However, now technology enable us to eliminate a lot of frictions. For example, do we really need three hours waiting in the airport to go through the security check and immigration? Can we use biometrics to reduce some of the times? So the answer to that is yes we can use biometrics and many people but the investment isn't being put into it. Some places are yes but the investment isn't being put into it. That is a great area for government to make pre-investment for the long-term gain. But let's just take Heathrow for example. Sorry was that a big sigh? Yes, it's overdue I think. Such a big city, we need to better investment there but look at Hong Kong, Singapore and Dubai. I think it's seamless. When you go in you hardly need to talk to anybody, right? There is good role model in place. Yes but you need none of those places that would maybe the exception of Singapore but none of those places had to concern themselves with electorates that could get volatile on things like extra remways expansion or increased air traffic. I think a good government should really make investment for the future, not focusing only on today's business. Okay but related to this, this is this idea, isn't one of the core problems that the industry in individual countries, oh this is hard to say, and despite the fact it's 10% of whatever and it's 10% of employment whatever the numbers are somewhat dubious but that's a good round number, it doesn't carry much weight. The politicians involved in tourism don't carry much weight. Tourism is considered to be that nice industry but it's but actually when you get to cabinet level, this is the truth, when you get to cabinet level it always loses out to finance, to defence, to industry, to commerce. The US doesn't even have a tourism secretary, I couldn't even tell you the name of the UK tourism secretary, let alone if I ever interviewed him or them. I think there's two points, say first well I want to pick up on SAF, we have to do more and it's just who pays for it. Ultimately the customer pays right that's no no no that's further down the road, who pays for the development, production and execution and implementation of SAF to get it to acceptable numbers. We have the same dynamic, we have to agree which models we're going to use and how do we upscale, we have the same in shipping, we have diesel fuel, we have to move to ammonia or hydrogen and everyone's looking for someone else to start. So this is where competition is good but we also have to have a collaboration on what's the right answer because I think you may find young travellers won't travel if the emissions are too high and there's no real attempt to deal with it in civil aviation. The question about autonomy, big issue for workers, we genuinely think autonomy AI can improve the quality of the jobs. You know menial tasks, who wants to do menial tasks? Our problem in tourism and travel is in travel, we've lost the the glean of transportation when it comes to civil aviation, we have to recreate that but in the end service is also service, people appreciate service, South African hospitality, so why didn't they come back? This is what I want, one of the great pandemic, I'm going to take some questions in a moment, one of the great pandemic issue questions, the black hole where all these jobs went into, people left the industry where did they go? Every other industry seems to be also having problems recruiting and stuff, where did they go? So we have anecdotal evidence, so I think we lost half of civil aviation folks, you have to think about the practical things, right? You travel to work, many airports are not downtown for lots of obvious reasons, you're not paid, the security rate, quality of life I think is the big balance that's an impact for us about how do we deal with this but also for who would we recruit? And we see this in a lot of our sectors, young people's expectations for jobs are quite different from the folks we recruited 30 years ago, so we have to look at all of these things, challenges for us but for all of us. And also lots of young people prefer to work in office environment because now we have flexible working hours, for the service industry we don't have that flexibility. How many crew are you hoping to recruit this year? We're about a thousand, thousand about 200 pilots, we have 7,000 crew and 2,000 pilots, we don't seem to have a problem, we don't have a union. Unfortunately, or yet, we don't need it that way, right? Everyone, we're a big one happy commune, 22 years not one day of industry. But each day, yeah, I get the... I've asked the general secretary to come and visit us. We're going to have a conversation, let's put it like that. Each day I get the cup of morning briefing email and it always says, Ryanair holding crew recruitment in X-City. I saw this morning, Lufthansa is hoping to employ 2,000, extra this, that or the other. So the jobs are coming back. I want to focus, do you have any questions? Yes, yes sir. Well, don't worry. From the tourist sector, rather than just rely on volume but actually get people to stay a little bit longer get people to go to places where others aren't going and also we've taxed the tourists in order to build our infrastructure. New Zealand is a somewhat distant, unique situation, it's a unique situation. Number one, distance has meant that you haven't had the numbers to start or you haven't had them and but number two is, you know, since you never got to that over tourism level, you're now trying to do all the other things. Well, I mean basically what we're worried about is our productivity as an economy, are we getting the best value and tourism has relied too much on just picking up the numbers, putting them on buses and doing that kind of thing rather than relying much more on quality, getting to stay a bit longer, staying at hotels, etc etc. Right, but the new routes, the ANZ and the Qantas routes, the non-stops to New York and these will greatly increase your numbers. Yes, so I think New Zealand for this Chinese New Year will bring lots of high-end customers over there. I talked to Tony, the most expensive tour, we sell, trip.com sell, costs about 200,000 USD per person per trip. How much? 200,000. What the hell did you give him for that? And 80 days around the world. Conversation with you. 80 days around the world. And the 192,000. And guess how long did it take us to sell these packages? Come on. Take a guess. Well, I mean, 200,000 in Asia very quickly. How quick? Oh no, no, I'm not going to. You guess. How quick? You guess? In days, or I think it's, I was seconds probably. I was 17 seconds. So I think when the country is doing its branding, we really need to make sure first of all you do the right branding. Are you really looking for volume or are you looking for my product, right, which is less price sensitive or high-end users and team up with the right partner? But New Zealand is a good example because New Zealand is a bit like Africa when it comes to mobile phones and landlines. New Zealand can jump the numbers game because you never got that. You know, you didn't suffer that problem of the vast numbers. So you can immediately start building. Next question. Who else would like to join this discussion? Yes, Switzerland. I would like to ask one of the panel members if maybe this is a discussion which is not really over-tourism but over-population. Are we discussing the fact that everything gets more dense, everything gets more crowded, everything gets more expensive and actually now we are having the discussion away from the actual problem. So population, China is running a very severe issue because we had the one-child policy. Now the government is working very hard to reverse the trend. It's very difficult. If you look at the trend, when GDP per capita reaches 10,000 USD per person, birth rate will automatically come down. So if we run the model the world probably will be peaked at about 9 billion. So not really an over-population issue. Just remind me the population of China again. 1.4 billion. Right, and at the moment the percentage that travels outside the country? About 155 million in 2019. So you're talking about a really small percentage. Small percentage. So if China increases, which of course I presume Tony you're getting your planes ready, even by a small percentage, the numbers become huge. Tony will be very happy, right? They'll all be flying on air Asia as well. Yeah, exactly. But I also think it's about promote to your point eco-friendly tourism because think about it at the Kruger National Park you cannot really afford overcrowding for mere reasons because you have to contain their crowd. It's very unpleasant when you go on a drive and there are at least 15 other vehicles all chasing that one poor giraffe. Or elephants which gets frustrated and can't take the crowd. So that is why. But don't you have to say no, you can't come? Isn't this the unpalatable truth? You have to eventually, I know Tony is going to launch himself out of his chair in a second, but you have to say no. No, at some stage. Isn't there a question, 200 thousands, kind of unbelievable? Congratulations on buying it. I'm not sure they'd approve of that in my union, but the reality has to be there's markets for different processes, right? So I think if we look at Global South, look at India, look at China, those businesses are changing dramatically. First internal flights, but then also tourism venues. So there's plenty of space to go and find new opportunities. Our position is we need to make sure the infrastructure, the airports can handle it. Safety first in travel is the paramount. All of the conversations about SAF and electric engines we discussed earlier this week and not tomorrow, right? So there's new technology, there's new jobs. We have to make the jobs attractive because you need good people. Look at the average age in Africa, more than 50% young people. Young people want to travel, see different things. So different markets for different things, but governments, employers, unions maturely need to prepare our industry. There's no common thread. I come back to this point, I come back to this point that I said earlier, nobody ever wants to discuss when it comes to tourism. And the reality is it's a fragmented ecosystem. It's not like the car industry where you've got the manufacturers, the dealers, and it's fairly linear from putting it together and nor the oil industry and the extraction industry. Search, extract, refine, deliver. But oh no, tourism has millions of people in very small, in SMEs and tourism ministers who often don't care about it. They change. Leadership changes. So well, let me speak for South Africa. The fact that you can... How many bosses have you had? Enough. That love already has told you too many. But that's the problem. It's not about, you know, a strategy is not meant to change. It's a tourism strategy to be implemented despite who the leader of the day is. But unfortunately we've seen it in the African continent. It just causes disruption. You are right. What you see, of course, is the opposite in places like Dubai, where you have a leadership that is able to say, this is our strategy, this is where we're going, this is what we're going to do, and we're going to do it. Absolutely. In China, the infrastructure is built with such a long-term view. The high-speed railway from Beijing to Shanghai is the same distance from New York to Florida, four and a half hours. We're there. Takes you that long to get through LaGuardia. Exactly. I don't think tourism, I mean, there are councils, et cetera. I don't think tourism has a small voice in government, certainly in Asia anymore, because it is a great job creator. It is a great way of narrowing the wealth gap. And so it does have a good voice. There is lots that can be done better. And topics such as this will raise the ante. But I think there is probably a little bit of an overreaction right now. I think there are many ways of dispersing tourism around. People want to travel. That's a fact. And without sounding like a mis-world, travel is good. If people get to know each other, there's less kind of conflict. I really strongly believe in that. At Air Asia, we brought Southeast Asia much closer together. There was so little connectivity even between Indonesia and Vietnam. So there are lots of benefits of it. Can it be managed better? Absolutely. Let me just tell you one point. I've been through everything. SARS, bird flu, tsunami, earthquakes, COVID. You know, we had the Bali bomb. And every airline cut their flights to Bali. And I said, look, we can't do that. We have made a lot of money from the Balinese and we need to be there because the economy will collapse. So I put out 5,000 free seats because I knew Malaysians very well. If you put a free seat, they will risk their lives. Okay? I'm not going to Bali, but free seat, I'm going. And they went and they had a great time and Malaysians will come back and tell 50,000 other people what a great time they had. And we never canceled a flight. So, you know, it is important. We mustn't overreact because there's a big ecosystem, as you said, around the tourism industry. Can it be better? Should we be silent? Should we avoid it? I agree with you, we shouldn't. But I think there's a lot of mass hysteria right now and politicians are jumping on the bandwagon and making populist decisions. Which is the point in a sense that I exactly that point relatable back. The risk for the industry is that politicians jump on a bandwagon, don't necessarily have any knowledge or real experience. Correct. Therefore, the classic example is APD in the United Kingdom, which has made tickets there considerably more expensive and competitively disadvantaged as a result. And it's happening with a lot of the environmental standards that are being put in place. But the industry doesn't have a strong enough voice. I would agree on that. And I think the industry needs to get its act together. Many countries in Southeast Asia are signing carbon emissions things and not fully understanding and now having the issues and going back and sorting it. So I do think the industry has been fragmented. It's getting better. But that's a valid point you've made. All right. One more question. Oh, thank you for that. We'll be quick then. Yes, ma'am. Hello, my name is Aslak Holmberg. In the Arctic where I come from tourism is very important for the local economies. But also, especially in relation to cruise ship tourism, we've experienced that if you bring thousands of people into small Arctic communities, it can have huge impacts for the local culture. Many communities have developed their own protocols how to ensure that this can go exist. So I want to ask what are you doing to ensure that tourism is sustainable also culturally? I think to the extent that we've heard. But I want to know what sort of things a local community is doing to basically coexist with it? Because you still want the cruise ships, don't you? I don't want them. I don't have a coast. So are you prepared for, you know, I always remember a boss when I asked for this that he said, right, who would you like me to fire? So I mean, so are you prepared to lose the jobs in those Arctic communities as a result of the cruise ships not coming? Well, I think more small scale tourism is the more sustainable solution in this sense. But to give you an example like these protocols, for example, addressing what are the local livelihoods using the areas for in each season? Where should you go? Where not to go? In some areas there are clear guidelines for this. So are you doing something to ensure that the communities can make sure that their priorities are heard? Yeah, I think you've addressed that but if anyway it particularly wants to to come back on them. Whenever we go to a new route, part of our protocol is to meet the local community. Tell us what you like, what you don't like, what we should be doing and then we educate through our own communication channels. I think we think particularly with cruise ships there has to be a positive impact on the local community and whether that's economic or investing in protecting the environment that needs to be debated up front because you can't just move thousands of people into an environment without protecting while you're visiting. Right, next question. I think it goes a little bit in the cruise ship directions that you have just mentioned. Are we not producing over tourism? When you see the new MSC cruise ships, they host 7000 tourists and the new ones that they built maybe 9000, 10000 and so when they arrive in a smaller harbour and they all disembark that is sort of an invasion. And the problem for the communities is that those people don't spend money. So they have peace on board and they're just walking around and then returning to those ships. So are we not producing over tourism? Right, but the points you raise on cruise ships are well documented in that sense. I remember 25, 30 years ago being in Key West and watching the cruise ships and then having to tend to in and 5000 people arrived, they spent maybe 50 bucks on a T-shirt and a bit of food and then back on the ship for the food. But we've known this for a while. Right, but is your answer to ban the ships? Is that the answer? Just like Amsterdam or Venice, we're not having the ships. Is that the answer? And what are you going to do with the money? Yeah, but what are you going to do with the money? Because APD in the UK was supposed to be for environmental issues. As far as I know it's spent on everything except environmentally. So how do you ring fence? The next question. Sir at the front and then our last question to our panel and then we can all go off and improve the state of the world. I'm Juan Pablo Ortega, I'm from Colombia and I think we have a completely different problem. Colombia for many years was seen as a good place to make TV series and today's tourism hub and we even have a house to promote tourism so I invite everyone to go to Colombia. So my question is we talk about our tourism but I think there is still too many people in the world that haven't been able to travel, that couldn't afford to travel and that's changing. So instead of talking about our tourism, how can we get more people around the world in China, in South America to travel? And I think Tony you are the best example of this but what do you think, how can we get more people who try to do other places like you say the long? It's growing naturally. I mean I don't think that's a problem in a sense. That's happening on its own. They may not become into your country but that's happening already. They're coming to my country but I'm not going to other countries and I think the long-term needs to happen. Where did you last go on holiday? Last, well I went to her beer because I was coming to her so I did a two for one trip but I don't think that many people can afford those kind of trips. So when we talk about the long-term I think that's a better problem to solve because countries like some parts of Colombia live out of tourism and they need to take cruise ships and they're happy to take cruise ships and then other cities don't want to take cruise ships so in the conversation it's mostly not stopping our tourism. It's how do we shift the tourism to places that actually want it. The disbursement. Thank you sir. By the way, World Economic Forum, you should have had a cruise ship guy here. Manfredi's outside. Yes, absolutely. Manfredi is over there. He's great to have had Manfredi here. He asked me to promote him so I'm doing that now, somehow. Final question to each of you. Where are you going this year? I just went to South Port. I just came back from... No, no, no. Where are you going? Where are you... What's the trip that you're going to take this year that you're really looking forward to? Oh, after South Port. Very hard to beat that one so... Tony, you must have a destination for us. Sorry? You must have a destination there. Absolutely. Where are you going this year? Planning to go to Tanzania this year. I need trackability. Once you've done and all the unlocking that you have done that I'm doing in South Africa, surely you deserve some time out. And why not? You're going to Zanzibar or you're going to Maine? Zanzibar. Yeah, I was there a couple of weeks ago. I'm staying at home after this conference because I'm against over-tourism. Do you know anyone who's got a good airline? I could tick it. So we travel a lot. So I can't even tell you the schedule over the next week. But I think the one... On holiday? Well, we have our big convention in Marrakesh. So we're bringing 2,500 people from all over the world. Over-tourism. Over-tourism. That is... Decision-making body, Tony. That is classic. And then you're going to do a bit of pleasure. Yeah, Marrakesh is a very interesting place. It's worth a visit. I think we just discovered the problem. I think we can claim the whole thing on your conference and your some holiday. Ladies and gentlemen, our panel. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.