 Welcome to Healthy Marriages. My name is Tom Rice. I'm the Associate Director for Great Marriages for Sheboygan County. My guests again today are John and Nikki McDonald. John is the pastor of adult ministries and family life for the Sheboygan Evangelical Free Church here in Sheboygan. Welcome back John and Nikki. It's good to have you. Thank you. The last time we were together we talked about marriage, preparation and some of the changes people are facing in today's culture. Today I want to change our focus a little bit and talk more about the church and its role in today's culture as it relates to cohabitation, marriage, divorce, remarriage, those kinds of things. So today over 50% of couples who are getting married live together before their marriage. Many of these come from church-oriented families. How can one account for that today? Well, the only answer I really have for that is that the church is in the midst of the same culture that those statistics come from. And that means we are dealing with the same people. With the breakdown of family, I really think that girls want, they want a daddy figure and that's not to say that that's the simple answer completely, but where there's not a dad they look for someone who will love them and care for them and they're willing to make concessions. So there is less of a, I think an emphasis or a conviction that the Word of God alone is where I'm going to stand and there's more of a, let's figure this out as we go and I want to do some of the things I want to do and some of the things I want to do, the Bible forbids. And so they give concessions to get, in essence, what they think they want. Obviously, if you look at statistics, cohabitation is the gateway to divorce. It's not the gateway to a strong marriage. If you look at statistics, people who live together ahead of time not only get divorced more often, but have a lot of other problems. They tend to keep their finances separated even after they get married. They tend to almost live this dual life, like two single people rather than establishing one solid, committed home. I don't know that there's a simple answer to that other than the church is not this magical thing that makes all the problems go away. The church exists in the midst of this culture. And so we struggle with the same problems that the culture struggles with. You talked, John, about the breakdown of the family. Could you be more specific in terms of what you're dealing with within the church structure itself? Yeah. Yeah, I think family breakdown is not something that's simply a reality. You don't come to church and magically your problems all kind of go away. Obviously, we deal with the same problems. We are dealing with single moms raising their kids. We are dealing with single dads raising their kids. We are dealing with financial problems that come when you take an intact family and break them apart and make them try to maintain two households instead of one. We deal with tired, tired. I know we live in a culture where we have now come to expect two income households, but choosing two income households and being forced to live like that are two separate things. And we live in a world where some of our single moms are forced to work, and that means they're not at home preparing during the day and helping their kids be prepared for the next day. They're out at work given everything they have all day long and they come home exhausted and that's a problem in the church as much as it is anywhere else. Society seems to condone or accept cohabitation as normal or acceptable. Are churches today beginning to adopt the same attitude? Well, one of the things that I love about great marriages is great marriages has produced a document for all of the pastors in Sheboydon County to take a look at and basically it says, let's help our young couples who are moving towards marriage to understand some non-negotiables from scripture. It's a covenant that when I do a premarital counseling session before I agree to do a wedding, I take them through and I say, look, if you're living together, you got to stop living together before I'll agree to do your marriage. If you're having sexual intercourse before marriage, you've got to stop that before I'll agree to do your marriage. It's an uphill battle and many times I've had couples come and say, well, if that's the deal, I'm just going to find someone else to marry me. It only has teeth, if you will, so far as we all do it together and that's one of the reasons why great marriages wants all of the evangelical churches in Sheboydon County to sign off on it, so we can't just have these couples just go from church to church and say, I'll just look for somebody to condone it. However, yeah, in general, when you look across mainline churches, across the landscape of the whole United States of America, are the churches accepting it more? Yeah, they are. They shouldn't, but they are. Nicky, from a woman's perspective, why would a woman want to enter into cohabitation relationship? I think a lot of times, you know, that desire to be loved is so very real that we're looking for it in an earthly relationship rather than for those who are in Christ, we find that identity in him and so when you have those desires to be loved rather than looking to a man to fulfill and complete you here, looking to Christ, while your longings and your feelings are very real, they're not the ultimate authority and I think sometimes we have to tell our feelings what to believe and so when a woman is pondering, you know, living with the man that she's in a relationship with, I would just, you know, long to sit down with her and just get to the root of her heart and, you know, make sure that she understands that she is loved eternally by a father in heaven, that she doesn't need to be finding her identity in an earthly relationship because, you know, none of us, whether we're married or single or whatever our marital status, you know, those relationships are not the ultimate. The ultimate is our relationship with Christ and he's the one who can complete us whether we're married or not. And I think along with that, what I would say is young girls are told, don't even think about marriage yet, you've got to, first of all, you've got to go through college and prepare yourself for this guy leaving you some day, so get yourself ready to take care of yourself for life, they are told, don't even think about marriage until you're 26, 27, 28, you know, until you're much older and those eight, those years, you know, between 16 and 26, when they are fully developed and ready for more responsibility, you know, are sometimes, they know that marriage is not even an option, so they have given themselves over to, wow, the culture says, this is the time to experiment, this is the time to figure yourself out, this is the time to even live with somebody for a few years to figure yourself out, but I can't think about marriage yet, that's just not done, but five years ago, Time Magazine came out with an article and they said, there is a trend now to reject this idea of waiting for marriage until you're 30 or 28 or 26 years old and there's a trend going back to getting married a little bit younger, and I'm not trying to make a case for one or the other, I'm just saying, I think each young person has to really be at peace with their decision and when they put off growing up or getting married or, you know, some life goals, just because culture says they're not ready, I don't think that's a healthy place for them to be, you know, I think they need to say, look, I know most people don't get married until they're 30, but I sense a direction of my life and I'm going that way and if I'm 23 years old or 21 years old and I'm gonna get married, it's not a bad thing for many people, sometimes it's a really good thing because they don't have time to develop this new, I'm an adult identity, I don't need a man, you know, I don't need this this individual, you know, independence, sometimes it's good to go straight from one home to the other, you know, Genesis chapter 3 says that, or chapter 2 says, for this reason someone will leave their family of origin and this reason is to be united to the next person, so the Bible puts going out of your family and getting married very close to one another and our culture puts them very far from one another and this little single, these single years in between are hard to navigate because there's not a roadmap. You had said something interesting just a minute ago when you talked about completing, women completing a college education so they could be prepared in case he leaves you, you think there's an anticipation on people's part that marriage really isn't a permanent commitment, it's well while it, you know, it's for a period of time or for a season and then the likelihood of somebody leaving and me being on my own is very practical in people's minds today. Yeah, I do, I think I think we kind of plan for the worst, and by the way I think it's wise, you know, you plan for the worst in hope or pray or live for the best and that's how most of us live, but I do think our culture has prayed upon women, we've hurt them, men have treated them poorly and I think now the culture has gotten to be the point in a good way where women have a voice, a better, stronger voice. One of the results of that though is women who have been hurt telling their daughters, expect men to hurt you, expect men to hurt you, expect to be left, expect to be hurt and so our young daughters are growing up expecting that men are bad, men won't stay, they're gonna have to send for themselves and that's why our colleges are full now, more than 50% of our colleges, women getting ready for a life in some respects without a man, you know, taking care of themselves. Both of you have said on different occasions that pornography is to men what romance novels are to women and we talked a little bit about that the last time we were together. You talked about, you know, women wanting a love so badly, is that the the role of a romance novel, the happily ever after type of thing in their minds? Yeah and I think it's an escape from the reality of the everyday humdrum, the trials and the routine and the day to day struggle, it's definitely an escape. When it comes to divorce, statistics tell us that almost 50% of marriages end in divorce. This is true of couples who attend church as well as those that don't. How do you explain that? Well, first thing I would say is that not everybody who attends church is a true believer who's saying, God, what you want me to do, I will do. When God created this world, he had Adam and Eve and they had two sons and immediately one of the sons out of jealousy killed the other son, their sin immediate even though they had relationship with God. By the time you get just five chapters, six chapters into the Bible, the evil in the world was so widespread that God sent in a flood that the Bible says in Genesis chapter six that God saw that every intent of the heart in mankind was only evil continually. And so he brought the flood. And all I can tell you is the nature of the human heart is bent towards sin. It's bent towards going my own way, living my own way, and that isolation necessarily breaks down relationships. And so that even with the church, even with God, when marriages make it for a long time, it's a miracle to celebrate. It's miraculous to see marriages that last a long time. And sin breaks relationships. John, you make it sound like it's almost hopeless. You know, one thing, two things I'll say on that. One is I am you do not have to have, let me put this way, I've seen great, strong, mature marriages in people who don't even go to church. There's a sense of wisdom and kindness and love. So I am not putting out there this idea that that there is no hope whatsoever outside of the church or outside of God. There is long term big picture, no hope for my soul outside of God. I've been reading in the Bible lately, and there's examples of people who said, you know, I don't want God, but I know that his way of living life is right. And another reason I'm so glad great marriages is here is because they're putting forth the principles of scripture saying, look, this is the plan for a good and healthy marriage. And even if you say no, overarchingly to God, you can still benefit in essence from his kindness. And so I don't think it's at all impossible. But I do think when it happens, it should be celebrated. And in some respects, it's miraculous. Same was true with a little baby, you know, you hold a baby in their arms, and you think, Well, you can say anyone can make a baby because, you know, the reality is it not anyone can do it. But my point is they happen, babies pregnancies happen all the time. And when we just think of them as part of life or naturalism or just happens, we aren't we don't stand in awe. But when you look into a baby's eyes, and you hold and that little baby wraps his hands around your thumb, it's a miracle. And I think the same is true of marriage. You know, yeah, you can get through and do it naturally, you can. But when you stop and gaze at a beautiful marriage, especially beautiful marriage that is pointing towards God, it's a miracle. From your perspective as a pastor or a counselor, you see the impact upon families, primarily children, you know, in a divorce situation. Why isn't more said about the collateral damage of divorce among families? I think, and this is going to betray my tendencies or where I'm coming from. But I think it's because if a marriage goes south, we do not want to guilt the person who feels like they need to leave the marriage because the ultimate God of our culture is perceived happiness. And so we don't want to say to a woman in a hard relationship, you got to stay for the good of the kids. We don't want to say that anymore. We should. But we don't want to say, you know, I'm reminded and maybe I said this last time, I don't know. But 150 years ago, marriages were not marriages. We're not supposed to be perfect, romantic, happily ever after. They were people who committed themselves together for the long haul in the pioneer life. And if the wife didn't do her job, and the husband didn't go out and do his job on the farm, they didn't eat that day. And they died. It wasn't about happily ever after in romance, it was about duty and call and hard work and heartbreak. And we stayed with it no matter what. And our culture does not have the the inner workings to live like that anymore. We have made happiness our God. And if I'm not happy, I'm leaving even so much that we'll say it would be better for my child to see this marriage, their world, their security broken apart, but perceived that I'm happy, that would be better than for me to stay in a loveless or a joyless marriage. And quite frankly, my opinion is the direct opposite. A kid who sees his mom stay when it's hard, learns a lot about life. A kid who sees his dad stay when the relationship isn't as happy as it could be, learns that that dad is going to give of himself for life for him. And that is a profound lesson to teach kids. You know, our studies, 86% of the couples who choose to stay together, even amidst hardship, are happier five years later than they were before. Yeah, you know, so they were percent. That's that's amazing. They work through the difficulties. And as you know, great marriages is committed to marriage and those kinds of things. But when you, Nikki, who are constantly in touch with women of all kinds, when you see these women who are going through a divorce, who have gone through a divorce, and you see the impact it has upon not only their lives, but their children. Why would they even consider divorce, unless it was an abusive situation? In other words, what I'm what I'm saying is if it's not happily ever after, but I'm not getting abused, why would I choose not to stay in it? Um, I think it is for that. You think you're after happiness and joy in the moment, and you can't even picture things changing like you just alluded to that, you know, five years down the road, those who remained are, you know, happy, but they can't even envision life as complete and happy again. So does it go back to the the whole thing of instant gratification? I want it now. I'm not willing to wait for it. Yeah, we're impatient and have this vision of what should be and it's not. So when you are going through pain, I honestly believe you, you can't see five years down the road. You can't. You know, as I look back and I look at the most painful point of my life or or the difficulties that we've been through together, they seem like a distant memory. They're just a part of the journey. They're a place where I yeah, I stubbed my toe or I broke my ankle, but it's healed now. But that is that is a perspective from the future looking back at someone who stayed. When you're in the midst of it, you think you can't and by the way, some people shouldn't. You know, like you said, if there's abuse, I mean, the Bible does give us a couple of places where there's biblical grounds for a divorce and we know we live in a culture where divorce does happen. We don't mean to beat up on divorces here and say they did it all wrong. We want to just give them hope that whether they can get married again or you can have a marriage that lasts. But I do think that it's hard to see beyond the pain and the pit that you're in. As you guys both know, we we do a lot of mentoring of our couples with couples and we require them to be married at least 20 years so that they've gone through the various stages of life. They're in a position to say to younger couples, yeah, we've been where you are. We've gone through the trials that you've gone through. We've stuck it out and it's worth it in the end. The question occurs to me from a church perspective. How would we convince couples that that is indeed the case? You know, how do we give them the the the light at the end of the tunnel so to speak to say stick with it. It does get better and try to take and put off the instant gratification now for three, four, five years later when the kids are growing or going. It's important for us to be real with the people that we live and interact with. A lot of times we want to put forth an image that we've got it all figured out and you know everything is happy and our family is intact and thriving and the truth is that those of us who have been married for 20 years and beyond we I think we need to humble ourselves and talk about the times when we were really struggling at a point in our marriage and at the same time offer hope that you know God is faithful and was able to help us get through that period and bring us closer to one another and it was difficult but man I'm thankful for the hard times in marriage because you know you're so much richer and and so much closer having gone through them. So yeah we have to talk about them. I think the I read a quote this week that said that the storm makes the tree put its roots down deeper and I think that that's really a helpful thing. I go to Sheboygan area school district and do a segment on death and dying and one of the things I asked the kids in the class is who do you want your dad to be on his deathbed? Do you want him to be the dad that left? Do you want him to be the dad that had this crazy amazing life and he made money and he made himself happy and he this and he that. Listen on my dad's deathbed I want him to have been faithful to my mom. I want him to have been in relationship with me. I want to say the things I need to say to my dad and quite frankly that translates into me being that kind of person and what does that mean? That means I've got a lover and put myself you know and I don't do it perfectly. I mess up all the time but my point is if the goal if we help young people see the goal of your life is not instinct gratification and sexual experiences and all this stuff that the world promises you it's when you get to your deathbed that you are surrounded by people and you look them in the eye and you can say your last advice to them and say listen I try to live my life in a faithful way giving you what I think are the most important things of life. I tried to stay in relationship I tried to give you advice and my last words maybe from that deathbed would just be I love you well the only way to get to that deathbed with those relationships intact is long obedience in one direction it's selling out for that dream it's selling out for that vision and saying it's not the stuff of the immediate moment I'm living for I'm living to be that faithful man so that on my deathbed I can say I did everything I could for my family. Nikki you mentioned just a minute ago going through the hard times and it seems to me that as we go through the hard times today as John mentioned earlier when it hurts we want it to stop and how do you convince couples today that you need to be in it for the long haul because the hard times draw you closer together and that's what you look back upon is the times when your marriage really grew and became stronger. I think it's really crucial for younger women to have older women who are pouring into them and telling them their own stories and you know I have been so encouraged by the women in my life who are just a little bit ahead of me in life who have been through similar things and live to tell about it but not only live to tell about it just grew in grace through it and so I would encourage every younger woman which I like to think of myself as but to have a woman in their life who's pouring into them and talking about you know I went through something similar and life is hard but God will continue to use those hard things to shape your marriage and to build character and I just I think that's crucial for women of all ages to be interacting and pouring into one another. Our time is short but I have one question I'd like each of you to answer separately and that is when you die I wish my legacy would be what? Well I think I'll answer it in the context of marriage because that's what this show is about I could answer it in a lot of different contexts. I want it to be that I never stopped growing that I never stopped studying Nikki and learning about her and you know you date and you do all sorts of wacky stuff sing songs buy gifts try to you know I want to be doing that when I'm 65 when I'm 75 when I'm 85 pursuing her heart to the very end. And I want to be known as a woman of faith and excellence who found you know my name may never be known out there outside the walls of our own home but just being content and pouring my life into my men we've got my husband and three sons and I just want to be known as faithful to them. Pursuing her heart is that a new idea? Well when I was six when I was 18 years old and we started dating you know in that era of our life it wasn't new no one had to teach me how to do it I wanted to I wanted to impress her I wanted to win her and I don't ever want to stop that I think we grow tired because we tell ourselves well I got married and now she's sort of she's stuck with me I won the prize I want to keep winning the prize. I want to thank you so very very much for taking time out of your very busy schedules to join us you know we at great marriages sometimes need the encouragement that you give to us as we deal with couples as well and of course the church is a very strong partner of ours as we go forth with marriage promoting the beauty of marriage promoting the healthiness of marriage and it's a commitment between two people for a lifetime and as you keep that commitment when you're married 30 and 40 years and so you look back and you can say it's worth it it's worth it and if we could just share that message with young couples today to say you go through the hard times you go through all of the things of raising children and in the end you look back upon your life you look back upon the legacy you've left with your kids and you say it's worth it thank you very very much appreciate it