 Hello and welcome to the Lowey Institute's Pacific Changemakers, a podcast where we discuss political and development issues with some of the Pacific's most prominent thought leaders. My name is Mihai Sora and I'm the director of the Australia PNG Network, a Lowey Institute project that aims to build closer ties between Australia and Papua New Guinea. Today we're very excited to welcome Oliver Nobotau, the new FTC Pacific Fellow for Papua New Guinea, joining the Low Institute for a year. We're delving into Oli's personal journey and getting his take as an emerging leader on key national and regional security issues. Oli, welcome. Thanks Mihai. Thank you for having me on the podcast. I'm really excited to be here and really excited for our chat as well as the year ahead with Lowey Institute. Brilliant. Let's start from the beginning Oli. Tell us about your roots and your early influences. Sure. So I was, I'm from Papua New Guinea. My father is from the autonomous region of Bogenville. My mother is from West New Britain. I was born in Germany. My father was a diplomat. So I spent, I was born in Germany and I did some of my early schooling years in Australia when my father was posted here, over in Canberra. I completed my middle school and high school in Papua New Guinea and I went on to obtain my Bachelor of Laws at the University of Papua New Guinea when I graduated in 2019. And what drew you into a career in law? I guess the idea for me was to have a career or a job that really focused on helping people. At the time I felt that law was the best career for me to pursue that. This passion as well I guess is one of the underlying issues why I'm also quite keen on the FDC Fellowship that I'm a part of now because I think it promotes a very unique opportunity to contribute not only to the development of the Pacific but in terms of the literature as well. I think PNG people and I think Pacific society as a whole were naturally orators so there's not much written history that's in the books for people to access so being able to contribute to this to this literature and on I guess contemporary issues as well I think is a unique opportunity so which is why I'm pretty excited about that. And after all the many many years of law school and all of the many many essays did you dive straight into a job as a lawyer? Yeah so after attending and obtaining my Bachelor of Laws I had to go to the post Graduate Legal Training Institute to get admitted to the bar that was also in 2019. Shortly after that I was lucky enough to get a job with the Office of the State Solicitor in the Department of Justice and Attorney General back in PNG. This within OSS I was attached to the International Law Division and I dealt primarily with legal matters concerning climate change, national security but also having the opportunity to work on a broader range of legal issues such as migration reform for instance. Sounds like very exciting issues to jump into particularly for a young lawyer. Can you talk us through some of the highlights of some of the exciting moments in your work whether it's in climate change or in national security as well? Yeah sure I think each of these areas have their own sort of special set of experiences and I was quite lucky to be able to be exposed to them. I think one of the biggest takeaways is being able to meet with many of the technical I guess bureaucrats working in these areas back in the government. Very capable people and you get to learn a lot from them especially in the technical side of things. Under with climate change throughout I guess my I think it's a relatively short career I've been able to assist the climate change and development authority the main agency dealing with climate change of the PNG government. I've assisting them with some of the climate initiatives that are in place such as developing the enhanced nationally determined contributions which are submitted in 2020 by PNG. Also attending COP26 in Glasgow part of the government delegation at the time giving legal advice to the delegation and I was also initially on the team that has been drafting PNG's carbon market regulations which sort of sets up the domestic regulatory framework for carbon trading. And that's in terms of climate change in terms of the national security that's a whole sort of different ballgame altogether. I've had the opportunity to deal with some of the security practitioners within the government so the role that I played as a senior legal officer at the Office of State Solicitor really has you putting in input and drafting texts for bilateral agreements and arrangements between countries and also assisting the negotiating teams when it comes to negotiation of these contexts. So some of the highlights I believe during the time include the three security arrangements that were entered into between PNG in the United States for instance like the 505 agreement, the shipwright agreement and the defense cooperation agreement more recently as well was the bilateral security agreement between PNG and Australia which assigned in December last year. I've also been lucky enough to attend some training in this area as well. Most notably at the Daniel K. Annoy Asia Pacific Center for Security Studies. I attended a course in 2022 and was lucky enough to get invited back to play a facilitating role as an alumni seminar leader in the first iteration of the course in 2023. But in the security space there's a lot of opportunities to do many different things. One of the highlights I think as well which is a pretty fun story was during the 2021 riots in Solomon Islands the PNG police was going to get deployed to Solomon Islands and it required I guess to the extent that my role provided sort of an arrangement in place between both countries to enable the deployment of the PNG police and one time we had we had to go and visit Solomon Islands and we got on it was myself and some other government officials I guess I won't name them here but we got on a small little six-seater plane that was being flown by Tropicare and then we flew from Port Moresby to Honiara and I remember vividly sort of seeing the views at the time where there was smoke that was sort of blowing into the air when we landed there was nobody on the runway nobody was at work so we just sort of had to land and figure out where to go sort of where to park the plane really so we we got there and then we met with the officials that we needed to meet to within a couple of hours and then we flew out again so that was sort of a bit of a little surreal experience as well but really an opportunity that presented itself because of the work that we were doing it but quite a dramatic story so what did it feel like flying over Honiara you would have seen some of the some of the imagery that we've seen in the media you know burning buildings and scenes of scenes of people running about in different directions what was it like when you guys were landing were arriving in Honiara yeah I think it was pretty much the same you know I recall flying over and seeing a building on fire the smoke going through the air and it was just sort of right next to us where we were about to land land the plane the streets are relatively empty I think most of the fighting had already taken place and prior to us landing there was an Enugini flight with PNG police personnel that had gone to sort of secure the area so it was quite it was it was relatively quiet by the time that we arrived there so but it was it was definitely some unique scenes that you don't usually see so between climate change and regional security you've had the privilege of working on some of the most important issues in our region today what are the topics what are the themes that you're most passionate about well thanks I think in terms of what I'm most passionate about it tends to stem I'm heavily influenced by the work that I did in OSS and that's to do with climate change and security so I guess you know while I'm here during the fellowship I plan to conduct research in these areas for climate change particularly in terms of climate induced migration I think that's a real issue and sort of examining the government policies and strategies that are in place to deal with persons who are displaced because of climate change this has already happened in PNG on the ground in Bougainville with the Cutter at islands and there are different challenges that are unique to each country for example in PNG the complexity of the land tenure system it it makes it it it introduces a bit of a barrier which has to be an obstacle that has to be overcome when you're thinking of relocating people because the land is owned by the traditional custodians of the land it's not as simple as getting people and relocating them to a separate place so it has to be it if not managed well it could be a potential for conflict the social issues that need to be managed well by the governments and how has the issue of climate change affected you personally I think in terms of my personal experience I sort of grew up mainly in the urban areas and I would go back to the rural to my villages where my parents are from not that often but when you do you get to notice that there are many differences to the environment when you go back for instance some of the creeks or watering holes that you would enjoy sort of swimming in when you were younger start to get smaller and I I guess that sort of happens too when you gain weight and get a little bit bigger but you know they they tend to dry up some we're having some of those problems with their drying up as well as with the food you enjoy a lot of food that you have fond memories of like when you're when you're younger and as you get older some of those crops just not growing as well as they used to one of the biggest things to that I sort of take away from this is that the phenomena of climate change is it's observable by people in the rural areas and they can see what's going on the unfortunate thing is without I guess the proper awareness they don't know how to address it how to deal with it and sort of and you know more importantly how to adapt to the change in climate to ensure that their livelihood is preserved as well so it's it's something that I care deeply about and this is why I want to I guess delve more into the research around this area of course and climate change for so many communities as you say it's a lived experience and what's really important is to be able to connect those communities with data with access to policies to decision makers to international efforts as well that put pressure on governments to take more ambitious positions and identify how to mitigate or relieve the problems in those communities absolutely tell me a bit more about your interest in security the other half of your of your career so far yes the security as well it's sort of it sort of follows the same track for me my interest in it really spurred from the work that I was exposed to and I really got to understand security as an issue as something of prominence and national security I guess to that degree when I got to work with some of the security practitioners in the government so I think what's needed in this area is to engage in more dialogue on security threats and the issues that we face because it's getting more complex it's no longer just traditional security threats or a non-traditional security threat for instance climate security economic security internal security as well which which is something that needs to be managed by governments but people need to be aware of so I hope to sort of contribute to a deeper understanding of that and also how cooperation not just within government domestically but regional cooperation as well can help to try and address these threats and mitigate these threats I guess I also have an interest in Bougainville because my father like I mentioned is from the autonomous region of Bougainville so I'm hoping to contribute to the literature on that and the thinking around that I think that there's large potential for I guess it's social and economic future and that needs to be managed noting the history that's behind what's happened on Bougainville I think this needs to be properly managed and addressed in a manner which prevents further conflict from taking place as well and yeah so I mean back home there are different ways I guess that we can contribute I guess in development as well myself and a few colleagues have gotten together and sort of in the process of incorporating an association that can sort of provide the platform for younger professionals that are from Bougainville to assist and carry out some projects back home which contribute to development and so I guess I guess that's sort of the work that I'll be doing but through a different range of mediums hopefully like a podcast dialogue some more articles under the interpreter as well so yeah there's a there's a lot to talk about here and bringing it back home for for a minute we saw some terrible scenes of unrest in Port Moresby in January this year now you were still living in Port Moresby at the time what was that like for you as as a resident as a young person as a future leader of Papua New Guinea yeah to be honest it was it was definitely surreal it was something that was unprecedented that hasn't been experienced before if I could describe the feeling during the unrest I think it was quite tense it was unsettling I guess there was a bit of a sense of a feeling of hopelessness at some stage especially on the first day because I think the realization was setting in to a lot of people that you know there was an absence of I guess law enforcement and civil authority so you couldn't rely really on anyone to keep the peace and it was sort of like an every man for themselves mentality so you know I guess the the impact on the community there were people I guess it was a traumatic experience for everyone and there are some people who suffered you know losses personally I really feel for the business community that suffered majority of the loss the damage that was done today infrastructure I think the numbers that have been quoted recently that they would require around 358 million Kina I guess to restock and rebuild their businesses so they've they've suffered a lot in terms of that a lot of jobs have been lost as well the perception of government after after the unrest the narrative that was developing for a long time was not something that was quite you know in my view in a positive light and I don't think the management of the of the unrest is something that helped the perceptions of people in the government I can you know you can appreciate that it's not a very easy task to deal with but I guess you know the government has done what it can do you know but people I don't the general sense is people aren't too happy with how it was being managed and if we consider I guess the effect of the unrest and the trajectory of the country there was a lot of optimism when we started off the year with a lot of the projects that seem to be coming online one of the main ones as well within the first quarter it was anticipated that Pogara would come back online but I don't I don't think that these the unrest will essentially prevent the projects from taking place but the trajectory of it has definitely been affected and it may be a deterrent for I guess new investment into the into the country but only time will tell another issue as well I guess we consider as the social trajectory because I guess at the end of the day the destruction was caused by people and not you know it wasn't like a natural disaster or an act of God or anything like that so I guess that's a cause for concern as well I think socially people need to start looking at what we can do to address that and sort of turn that I mean use this to turn this into more of a positive direction socially. Thank you for sharing that. Now Oli you were in Canberra last week for Prime Minister James Marape's state visit you attended a state dinner you witnessed Prime Minister Marape's historic address to the Australian Parliament and you had a chance to get up close and personal with Prime Minister Marape and you even had a brief chat with him now it's quite rare for a young person to be able to speak directly to their national leader tell us what that was like. Yeah so it was it was it was a very fun experience it was my first week at Lowy so it was quite jam packed as well so they had the they had the dinner that was hosted by Prime Minister Albanese on the Wednesday night the address to government on the Thursday morning and then the ANU address as well on the night so the dinner was quite fancy as well I think it was one of the fancies that I've been to I mean you were there so I think yeah I think it was I think it was a great I think it was a great event definitely the feeling in the room was that it wasn't it didn't seem too official I think there was some it was a bit of a warmth in the atmosphere and it just felt like it really speaks to the relationship that exists between Australia and PNG the parliamentary address as well I think was delivered quite well by the Prime Minister regardless of whatever the opinions that people may have of him I think it's important not to take away that this is a historic moment between both countries and I think the Prime Minister did a good job in addressing the parliament not as a Prime Minister but like as he mentioned the chief servant or as the mouthpiece for a nation and I think it's really elevated the the relationship between both states as sovereigns to the highest degree so what I mean when I got to have a chat with him as well after his annual address he was he was very nice I think what struck me the most is that he's quite approachable I think he's we had two chats with him we had one chat first and then we were able to circle back again and then talk to him once more so I think what struck me the most is that he was very approachable when I first saw him he was chatting with I believe UPNG students who are currently doing like exchange program with ANU so yeah I think I think he was very nice he was kind about you know just openly having a chat so it was it was a good experience and how important do you think the Prime Minister's visit was to progress the relationship between Australia and Papua New Guinea I think it's I think it is quite significant you know especially when you consider sort of what's at play I guess domestically the politics there are really kicking up and for him to be taking you know taking up the invitation and visiting during sort of such a time I think it speaks to how he views the importance of the relationship between Australia and PNG and I would like to think that this is something that has really cemented the relationship between both countries as well what I would like to see I guess is to possibly if we could have this be a recurring sort of event maybe once every decade or so to sort of just sort of reinvigorate the the bilateral relations and cooperation between both Australia and PNG and it'd be great to get invited again to the state dinner I'm sure yeah very nice yeah the food was pretty good now you know stepping back a little bit there's certainly a lot happening in Papua New Guinea the year kicked off with some unpleasant scenes of violence there was loss of life there are political fluctuations there's rapid progress on bilateral security agreements big regional issues coming up climate changes is approaching as a regional issue as well as Australia seeking to host a COP meeting with Pacific Island leaders there's a lot of flux in the region and people sometimes say when they when they look at Papua New Guinea and its trajectory that it's difficult to stay optimistic when you think of the scenes of violence reports of corruption and and generally the tough conditions that people live under in the country how do you stay optimistic as a young Papua New Guinean yeah I think yeah what you're saying is right and I think one of the best ways to stay optimistic is to have hope which is very it's it's a lot easier said than done I guess in the circumstances but I think at the moment the younger people and the younger generation that are sort of coming up are very much more aware of the issues that are going on and they have access to abundance of resources to assist them in figuring out how to fix the problems and to sort of change the trajectory that we're that we're sort of currently on I think it requires the way that I guess I would stay optimistic is you need to also recognize that it's not something that's going to be fixed by one person but it's going to be fixed when everybody decides to work together not only as individuals but I think across all sectors so if you think about government civil society private sector as well I think we all have a role to play in contributing to how this this country recovers and the trajectory that we're on I think we need to learn to sort of cooperate with each other but also get very creative understand the systems that are in place and get creative in figuring out how we can solve the issues and we need to have a clear vision of where we want to go and then from that point on we can start making the steps and taking the necessary steps to sort of move towards I guess the PNG and the potential that we have there I believe the actions that are happening now are not necessarily detrimental to the amount of potential that we have but it is detrimental to the manner in which all the opportunities that we currently have available to actually tap into this potential that we have I think it's also very important to know that a lot of the times PNG is there's just a large number of internal issues that we always deal with and thinking of things at the national level international level cooperation is also very necessary we can't fix our problems ourselves and I think we need to always be open to assistance and learning from other countries as well and there are people who want to come and assist us in this sense and I guess this is this would be a good time to sort of draw back on the significance of the relationship between Australia and PNG with what just happened I think Australia has shown that it is a very competent and trusted partner throughout the years PNG is still the largest aid recipient of Australian aid money as well you know so I think we have to realize that yeah we can't fix the problems ourselves but I think we should be open to a lot of regional cooperation in dealing with the issues that we face sort of on the ground I recall Prime Minister Marappé's remarks among the things he said was for Australia contribute where you can leave the rest to us and hope you're such a precious commodity so Oliver Nabatao thank you for sharing some of that hope with us today thank you for sharing your story and giving us your time I'm Mihai Sora director of the OSPNG network at the Lower Institute this episode of Pacific Changemakers was produced by Josh Goding thank you for listening and we look forward to joining you for the next episode