 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today is all about premiere drums I'm joined by Mike Ellis of Cambridge Shire in England. Mike. How are you? This is gonna be awesome premier has been one of those companies that's been in the history of drums forever And I know as an American here. I I don't know much about them. I just know that they're very Well-made famous drums Ringo started out playing premiere early on As you were telling me you are a Restorer of premiere drums and you run blend them drums. So why don't you tell us about that a little bit and then we can get into the history Well, I've been Restoring and repairing drums Ever since I got my first drum kit when I was about eight years old I got the kit and within a day of taking it apart and put it back together Because that's the sort of silly thing that I used to do when I was a kid You know, I get something and take it apart see how it works But normally I would leave it for someone else to put back together But in case of the drums because I wanted to play them I put them back together. So it was quite an interesting Project for a very young chap to you know Take the whole kit pieces and see how it all screwed together and put it back together And I did a fairly good job of it. So I guess it was Something I had a natural ability for Then When I left school I went on to have a relatively successful and as much I got paid for it professional career up until I'd say the early noughties when I was Really a hobbyist Up to then repairing drums and I was doing favors for you know friends and other professionals in restoring and repairing and I decided to Do it myself and set up a company which I did that company ran for probably about Seven or eight years then I was head hunted to another company to head up there I don't know how to describe it. It was there the musical instrument accessories division brackets Cushion clothes brackets because they made all sorts of fabrications out of steel and plastic and What have you and the chap who owned it was a guitarist But what he really wanted to do is he wanted to make stuff for rock and roll people He wanted, you know, he didn't want to rub shoulders with people who wanted shoulder straps for a garden Strimmer or lawnmower or something like that. He wanted to make guitar straps and Go to drum shows and that sort of thing. So I I got on board with them Then I went out on my own probably in I think was 2012 When I set up on my own In a shed in the garden Where we used to live which was Blenheim house, which is why I took the name Blenheim drums And uh, yeah, that's how I started me. It's sort of grown from there. I've got a big workshop here now because I've we've moved to a a bigger property now A farm which is lovely and remote in the middle of nowhere in the rolling English countryside So, uh, it's it's very nearest neighbors two miles away, which is wow That is nice you're in seclusion and then I guess we should explain if there's any like internet glitches I'm sure you're you may have some internet Slowdowns. Yeah, it is possible. It's a bit steam powered out here. So That's funny I'll just shovel some more Put a bit more coal on the fire and get the yeah Then why don't we jump into the history of premier drums one of the absolute Dare I say premier brands of uh in british drum history Well, it's pretty much the the main one. I mean they are approaching their 100th anniversary in 2022 uh, they started in 1922 in a small workshop in the center of london And they didn't actually make premier drums to start with they made Drums for a company called J. E. Dallas and sons Which uh, they were badge engineered, which means they made the drums and they put someone else's name on them basically Um, that was sort of very it was a very big company and um, then after a few years they started making their own drums and through the 20s and 30s the the curve of development in terms of the technological advancements not only at premier, but all the other drum companies And in particular the american ones was incredible if you read the uh brochures from the time You look at like something from 1932 and they've got this fabulous new snare drum with a strainer on and this that's the other And then a year later they've improved it. They can see a lot of the modern um components and Technology if you like that we take, you know on which run our drums now was all being developed in them One of them being chrome plating You know, we expect everything all the hard work chrome plated whereas up until the mid 30s. I think it was all the around about them everything was nickel plated and chrome chrome was the big new thing and Uh splashes about it It's the the wonder of the age type advertising. Yeah, then they um, obviously there was a little altercation at the end of the 30s, uh, which meant that the world decided to all start having a massive fight So by now premier have moved to a very big factory in the north of london And they were making gun sights amongst other things interesting We were making gun sights for aircraft and for anti-aircraft guns And obviously this made them a target and unfortunately in november 1940 they became the subject of a lot of bombs And the factory was destroyed and they weren't making any drums at the time or if they were it was in It was in very very small quantities And the british government Being done to be a necessary manufacturer of great importance and there were many often So they moved them up to lester in the midlands So they were a bit further out of range from bombers And they set up a new factory, which is where they stayed until Well about 10 years ago And then all production was transferred To the far east. Oh really? Okay So in lot well most companies now most of their hardware, I think And a lot of their their kits are made Out in the far east. It's it's nothing unique. It's nothing unusual. It's just That's the way the world has gone. So yeah It is man I find that so fascinating and people who've listened to the show in the past have have known I feel like it's almost like a little side journey of this show is to find out what all the companies were doing during world war two where rogers was yeah, and like, you know gauges for airplanes and Yep, everyone is doing different things. So it's really cool to know that premier was making gun sights. Um and Currently like even modern day right now. I find it sort of like a parallel that like as we're recording this It's april 11th 2020 and it is the covet 19 stuff going on I find it very interesting that companies like aquarium drum heads and Evans are making face masks Out of the drum heads. Yeah, four people on the front line who are working in the hospitals and all that so very Reminiscing yeah, it's very very timely Yeah, we're recording it about the same time because They are being called in an in a national and international times of emergency. Yeah People have to turn their skills to what is needed and that's exactly what's happening now and it happened in 1940 in britain Let me ask you so let's back up a little bit. I'm sure tons of other stuff has happened But I just want to ask so premiere started you said in the early 1920s. Is that correct? Yeah 1922 so at that time Were they mainly making like marching drums and things like that because that's Really at the very beginning of the drum set obviously um Yeah, really what they were making when they first started they were making snare drums. Okay, really all they were doing because the drum set back in the early 1920s Drum wise was a snare drum and a bass drum and then lots of toys because we were still deep into the The silent movie era. Yeah, and the the drummer was the special effects guy So well the sound effects guys should sell so they had the um the tray on the on the top of the bass drum And the bass drum and the snare drum weren't really used in the way that perhaps we're used to you know in these modern times of playing they were used for effects And the tray on the front of them you only have to look at a A catalog from cremia or ludwig or anyone who's around at the time And they've got duck calls train whistles slaps and all sorts of things that like What does that do? It looks like an instrument of torture, but it's a sound effect And that's what that is that is what the drummer was doing. Yeah, that was um his job and it wasn't until the sort of 1930s when the talkies came and when There had to be a big we think and that's why I say it's very interesting to read the the brochures and the 1930s to see how um Uh drum companies responded to talkies and all the pick musicians being put out of work It's very interesting actually. I've got all the um It's called the the drummer magazine that premier published. I've got them all from 1928 until 1939 when obviously they had to stop printing them uh When the talkies first came they did an editorial and as was Um, it seems to be the thinking at the time that talkies were just a fad. They wouldn't catch on You know, it's so weird. You've got nothing to you've got nothing to worry about. It's the business as usual And um, you know come and buy all your sound effects and everything of course, you know within a couple years silent movies were Dead and buried. Yeah Guys, that's so cool because again just like we were talking about with you know flipping the factory over to make um You know gun sights it's episode one of the podcast was about silent movie era drummers and we're now and Going on episode 50. So it's um Definitely something I like to hear about and I never really thought about it outside of america Which is probably very close-minded of me, but of course it's around the world. I mean And and it further expands the impact of silent movie uh The silent of talkies coming in and taking away the jobs of of these drummers Thinking about it globally. I mean Yeah, if you think about how many cinemas there were I mean just in america How many cinemas there were every single town had one two or three cinemas and every single one of those Had at least a drummer and other musicians And within I don't know what it was 18 months two years three years. They were all out of a job Yeah, just like that because of the um the talkies coming along. So Put that on a global scale And you can see why you know from he was saying things like no no no don't panic don't panic keep buying this You know It's just a fad Because they were probably terrified as well. Yes Well, no one's going to be buying Anything anymore because It's not going to be any cinemas, but um as it happened, you know, we uh music Moved in a different direction. Yeah, so then they pivoted similar to Um your slingerlands and your leadies and your Ludwigs where Things pivoted and it turned more into what we think of as uh, it's getting more into that traditional Drum set. So just as like the american will come the big four They were then started to make the jazz outfits and things like that, right Yeah, it didn't really happen in great britain until after the war because um, Obviously the what happened was along with all the servicemen who came over to serve And were stationed in the uk during that time. They brought the music. They brought the records and everything and obviously young impressionable musicians and drummers and Young people in general were hearing this, you know great new sound because it's also It's hard to believe. I don't think a lot of people realize but even though america and um Great britain are on the other side of the world to each other physically. It really I don't think people understand the actual psychological Difference, you know in terms of the way people in britain regarded the americans because They really were a nice well be from mars by today's standards You know what I mean in terms of the it's the actual physical differences and the physical distance, I should say uh, and the cultural differences and they brought all over this um, it's fabulous new Swing and jazz and everything Premiere we're looking at what the american manufacturers were doing at the time and obviously they were coming out with Uh, these smaller kits that could be carried easy easily because not many people had cars The whole idea of having a residency I mean, I don't know if that was the same in in america, but in the uk Bands tended to have a residency in a venue So you could set up the kids and leave it there and that was it It was there until you move to somewhere else and some of these venues. I remember when I was small I went into one Up in manchester, which is from where I'm from originally when they were redeveloping this old It was a theater and there were three floors And each floor had an audit an auditorium stage Seats and the balconies, you know, the uh, I don't know if you can see in the old victorian style balconies The huge high ceiling and there were three of them stacked one on top of each other in this place It was just uh, amazing and if you think In the 20s and the 30s, there were three bands, you know, all residents in there playing Uh, but I think it went on in the in the 40s and the 50s as well, but obviously the The configuration of the kit changed quite dramatically the, um, the skull Of skulls along the front went special effects all went I mean, um, it was gene krupa when he came out with the template that it wasn't it that slingaland in 1936 Um, I mean if you look at that kit that he came up with That's just a modern kit that it is modern for It's good, uh, and it's um, you know, despite the extravagances at the 70s Uh, it's that's how it's been ever since and um, but premier were a bit as were the other British manufacturers at the time because we still had um, still had dallas and ajax and a handful of others were a bit slow off the mark and um, it wasn't really until the 50s when they Really sort of got to grips with the idea of the what we would call the modern drum kit Gotcha, that's interesting man. The the impact of gene krupa just never fails across again the the globe of just someone who's Early like almost like ringo For us where we see ringo and then it goes. Oh my god. I want to play the drums That's like he's the predecessor to that of just getting people excited about the drum set Absolutely pivotal and it cannot be You know, uh overestimated he cannot be you know Ignored or you know understated because he he was gene krupa without him We might not be doing what we're doing now the way we're doing it He absolutely looked at the drum kit and went right. This has got to change. You know, it's a difference between um a propeller driven plane and a jet driven plane Uh, I don't think of any other comparisons Uh In modern times Such a huge quantum leap forward And like you say with ringo It was the beginning of the beat boom and that obviously that had an enormous worldwide effect and um, it is to my eternal sadness and regret that you didn't keep your premiere kit Yeah, absolutely. I had gary astridge on the uh show recently who um I know gary quite well. Yeah And just to hear him talk about that and how it just you know, he's like, I guess he traded in the uh premiere kit I believe at drum city, right then it it It's like what I actually recently saw that someone was selling it. I believe um on reverb.com or one of these music websites They were selling what was believed to be ringo's premiere kit and i'm just thinking like uh, yeah, yeah, yeah There's loads of them out there. Obviously Yeah, there's there's lots lots of um genuine premiere um ringo's premiere mahogany kits just like there's Lots of keith moon kits. There's lots of john bonham kits all genuine. Oh, absolutely You know the real thing. So uh, yeah, no you pay too many you take two whiskers there Yeah, well, it's funny. You said keith moon. I mean, we're we're gonna jump we'll we'll move ahead into like the rock days But man when I think of premiere Uh, we always talk about on this show too about how a brand can explode i.e Ringo and Ludwig, but I think keith moon and premiere. Um, they obviously go hand in hand So that he was such a great ambassador for the brand Oh and still is yeah, still is he's still absolutely. I think he still Shifts units for them. He still keeps the interest alive Because he is such a character so distinctive and he just looks so great behind that You know those double bass drum kits. Yeah, I mean the interest is still absolutely huge and as someone who is old enough To remember when he died I think it it's very difficult to Get over the immense Shock and sense of loss when he died. Yeah, everybody felt it was just absolutely, I mean We weren't surprised no to be honest for But it was absolutely Uh, because they just released an album just released. Uh, who are you a couple of weeks before? Um, so they were on tv or their promotional videos So it was a very happening time for the band. They were you know back in the charts. They were doing well and judge destruct I mean It's it's unbelievable to me how young he was as Just as a man. Oh, yeah 32, right like Every honestly lots of people really are shocked when they find out, you know, if you don't know younger people He was 32, but I thought he you know, he was in his 50s or something He had such an impact. Yeah Uh, you know on uh on the music industry He looms large Like this incredible legend. I mean if you think about what he did in his tragically short life All the albums he did movies as well. Yeah, some of them were Garbage but nevertheless the time, you know, you know, he's made more movies than I have so Not that that's a boast, you know, we made one Should be proud of but nevertheless Uh, but he did he had such a huge impact, but he was um, you know, he was 17 when the who started Oh my god, well that explains so it's like you start so young Then you're in it. So I mean and same with john bonham, obviously where they both died Very very young similar age. It's just tragic. I mean, it's I just turned 30. So I'm like, man, I can't imagine that I mean, I it's just unbelievable. Yeah Yeah, well, it is it's very sad, but um, yeah, but he did great things for premiere Yeah, the the kits it's um, it's quite a thing. I don't know if it happens over your side of the pond There's a lot people want to build replica kits Now a few years ago. Premier did a pictures of lily replica kits, uh, which was pretty much universally derided by all the uh, premier snobs and aficionados because they used the wrong lugs On it. They didn't use the right ones, which I think was a was a big mistake. Yeah, it was a trip. It was a tribute kit And I think if they just if they just gone the extra yard and said Look, we could actually do this properly. Um, but unfortunately a lot of the the dies and casts for the, uh, lugs were were lost when uh, they were merged with yamaha in the 80s Um, and a lot of stuff was a lot of machinery and tooling was scrapped. So It might have been a bit difficult for them to do it, but anyway, back to Keith. Um, yeah, and things like he's um, he's red sparkle kit is the one of the What's the word? Legendary kits, you know the iconic kits. That's the word. Yes iconic. Yeah, definitely Um, and then there was the um pictures of lily kits. Uh, I don't know. Have you ever seen the clip from the american show the smothers brothers? Yeah, where they packed the bass drum Too tight. Why don't you explain it? So if people listening, you know, anywhere haven't seen that or they're young and they there They haven't seen it. Um, why don't you give us a rundown of that? Because I think that's a piece of history which premier is very much involved in Okay, well first of all There were two pictures of lily kits. Not many people know this, but there were two identical kits And this is an example of why there were two kits The who were doing an appearance on this TV show Smothers Brothers And Keith came up with this fabulous idea to pack one of the bass drums with explosives Now legend has it that they got the stage handle or whoever it was who was the Expert in explosives to put a little bit more in. Apparently brandy was involved To drink. Yeah And um, he put a little bit more in than perhaps he wanted to or should have done And at the uh, the end of the song when they were doing their traditional Smashing up of instruments Keith hit the ignition switch and he was like, oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry The ignition switch Unfortunately the moment this happened Pete Townsend's head was quite close to the front of this drum The bass drum and it was as you look out from the kit. It was the left hand bass drum This bass drum was blown into shreds as was nearly Pete Townsend's head. Yeah, and it it was absolute Pandemonium and you can see if you watch the unedited broadcast of it The guys that the the presenters came on because they were going to do a little I think a little bit of a comedy routine um Keith got blown off the back of the the the drum riser and he suffered some injuries because a symbol got blown over and it cut his arm He got quite About cut of his arm um Poor old Pete Townsend didn't know what day of the week it was Uh, and he he maintains to this day. That's where he is hearing damage really came from because It's quite actually very Scary to watch the footage because his head was right in front of the um The resonant head of the bass drum and it just Like when a bomb goes off it is huge explosion. It's huge and because all sorts of chaos and um I'm not sure if they're ever invited back No, but the the kit the kit so you could see the kit was really the front of it was absolutely torn apart um The way it was like almost something from you know, Warner Brothers cartoon where you know He puts his finger in the end of the gun and we call the trigger and the the end of the barrel splays out Yeah, exactly. It looked like it looked like that and um Yeah, it was uh, it's it's legendary It's enormously funny because no one was seriously injured, but at the time You can imagine that it it must have really uh It must have caused them a lot of problems Yeah, I mean it's great fun to watch now. It is it it wouldn't be fun if it killed someone Obviously, I mean it which it very well could have done It could have done quite easily. Yes. It was it. I mean this was one of um These traits, you know, this uh Just going taking everything just a little bit too far. So yeah He you know, he got away with it. Yeah that time so, um Let's kind of go back into the timeline of premiere here. So obviously 40s and then post-war you said they got more into the like traditional jazz kind of jazz or drum sets Um, and then into the 60s. We're looking at more Obviously, they're building kits like rock kits of that time for drummers like Keith moon and all that stuff. Um, yeah and uh Were they still you you mentioned later they were sold were they still independently owned and operated as a as a You know as a british. Oh Yeah, they they were owned family owned From their inception right up to the end of 1983 Okay, he was a family a family owned company um There's some quite hair-raising stories about uh, they ended up because i've been fortunate to be able to talk to Uh, quite a lot of people actually worked Premiere at the time. Um, some of them unfortunately who are no longer with us because time march is on and all that Yeah, I've made extensive notes for my life about these things. So, uh, yeah the um, it was it was it was family owned When they came out of um, world war two It was a really it was a fresh start. They had to and they came up with all these new designs and with the the skills that they had uh, perfected With the accuracy of making things like gun sights as i mentioned earlier Trans was transferred into making the the the drums and they were very adept at die cast molding which is why Their stands their first set of stands that came out at the in the 40s were all had die cast legs Had steel tubes whereas everyone else would press steel So they had the die cast legs. These were developed Through the 50s as was the range of drums and again the looking at the Roshas from the 50s. It's it's interesting to see the the developments and how they were sort of really I think they were trying to keep up with the the american companies. I don't think it's um, it's unfair about From here to say that But they had one big advantage over the american companies in the uk and a lot of territories over the world Was because britain still had what was left of what was called used to be called the empire And it was now called the british commonwealth and in order for people like rogers and mudwig and wretch and everything to sell their products into britain and these territories They had there was enormous purchase tax on them because at the end of the war britain was broke and the It was export or die. We had to set. We had to make stuff sell to get foreign money in so Everybody was actively discouraged from buying stuff made Overseas by british. You had to buy british and you had to export which meant through the 50s Companies and premier were no different To say like an automobile The vast majority of production went overseas and this was pretty much through the 50s as well So all these kits a lot of them went to you know, the four corners of the earth in order to get foreign money into the country in order to Pay off the debts that we've run up during the the conflict So they were following very much what the americans were doing, you know wretch rogers and In particular ludwig Or median ludwig or whatever they were called at the time because I know they went for a few Ups and downs. Oh, yeah during that time big time and Yeah, yeah, so it was still during the 50s jazz was The big thing in the late 40s and through to the mid 50s And that was the the big thing and then of course Elvis Presley bill highly came along buddy holly and It it changed again And interestingly as I said earlier, you know the way cremia said In the with the talkies they went. Oh, it's just bad. You know, yeah, he's talkie pig. Don't worry about it They said exactly the same thing about rock and roll They were they were just not interested and I have this Our person from talking to people who were working there at the time said they just weren't interested in pop music or rock and roll They said no it'll be It'll be all over in a few weeks. You know, this is jazz and swing and problem bands That is the way it's going to be and it was the same right up to Well, 1964 and only then did they suddenly go actually I think this this this pop music beat combo thing Is is going to be quite important to us. So we really need to respond to it And you can see it because that's about the time that the people's had really You know conquered the world. Yeah, and you know Ludwig were on 24 seven manufacturing The purchase tax the import taxes Into the uk had been slashed by the government. So suddenly you could get Ludwig drums in the uk and they They had to they had to respond and you can see it because the 1963 brochure is pretty much the same as the 1962 and the 1960 and the 1958 it's all very patriarchal and very sort of stiff You know, these drums are very the jolly good, you know, you really ought to be using They're much better than anything those foreign Johnny's are making it's and Really very Just typically stuck in the mud British Sure, we we we do everything better than anybody else. Don't be an idiot by our stuff And then in 1963 1964 The catalog will if you see it if you're going to have a look at it online Suddenly they've got girls You know the typical what you call archetypal 60s model girls, you know draped across the kits So obviously someone had come along and said come on guys, you know, they blew the cobwebs off the boardroom Yeah table and said this is you know, this is happening. It's gonna It's gonna stick. It's gonna be you've got to be on board with this. Yeah, and I I sense that they were quite resistant to it because There was another problem that premier had Which is still a problem to a lot of people today They had their own unique sizes now you may have heard of these they're called pre-international sized drones Now what that means is they only made Say we'll take the tom-toms But in the 50s they made it a 10 12 and a 14 Right the 14 was standard 14 inch So you could take any 14 inch head you like you could put it on The 10 inch its diameter was nine and five eighths of an inch The 12 inch was 11 and five eighths of an inch And the only heads that would fit them were the heads made by premier Oh boy, and they and that there was a there was a pre-international 20 inch which they got rid of in the early 60s and made it international size And they had a pre-international 16 inch floor tom as well I mean, I don't know what they were on or what they were thinking, but they had a two 16 inch floor tom sizes So it's a 16 inch diameter by 15 inches deep And 16 inch diameter by 18 inches deep So those were the two floor tom sizes that you get But it wasn't 16 inch diameter. It was 16 and a quarter inches So again You had to put their own heads on now In the 40s and the early 50s It didn't matter because everyone was using car heads So when you needed to replace the head you just went along to your local car head lapper With your flash shoot and he put a new head on it for you and everything was fine And they stuck with these sizes until 1968 and you believe that wow Man, so it's just like a proprietary thing kind of like with nowadays you can almost say like with like apple Products like smartphones. It's like you're going to use our charging stuff and it's not going to work with anyone else But oh, yeah. Yeah. Wow. I can imagine how frustrating it is. I mean one of the things that I hate as I I advance in years is All the different plugs you've got to have for all the different bits of technology It drives me absolutely Oh to distraction. Yeah, why what why is that plug got to be like A quarter of a millimeter wider than that or why don't you all just get together one day? No, right? Okay Yeah Everything's gonna be the same Well, I've heard yeah, I've heard that same thing about early Uh early american brands like I think I heard about ledi where they would have like like we talked about painted drum heads in one episode on the 20s and it would be Like yeah, this ledi based drum would be 24 inches and three quarters and this is and So I don't think that was they were alone in that but I guess it sort of did You know, they well, yeah what they did though. They're big. They're big Their silly mistake was to stick with it. Yeah for 10 years after all their competition had gone to standard sizing and It was it would even um The other british companies that were still around at the time was standard sizes. They bought um, that well that the owner of uh, Premiere one of the owners of premiere bought a company called bevelly drums. Yeah In 1958 and what it was um, bevelly that got into the drum company the drum business because the Well, I'll go back a bit further the company that they bought was called deans and sons and deans and sons have been around for The years and they were steel fabricators And one of the things they made in the early part of the 20th century was um handles grab handles Out of steel for buildings, you know for staircases. Yeah, and they also made them for the buses, you know the London buses So those um grab handles you get going up stairs to the upper deck They were all made by deans and sons and they made all the bus companies going all around the world These steel tubes now the other great user of steel tubes in the 1920s were drum companies for the consoles so bevelly started making drum consoles And after a while they will make because they were making the other drum companies in the uh, in the UK and um, I think they actually made them for dredge as well. I believe I'm sure chick web May have had one or you might have had a premiere one But anyway, um, so it was a fairly easy um Adaptation problem to make to make these enormous curved steel chrome tubes And obviously after a while they went, well, why don't we make them as well? Yeah, that's It's not a big Leap for them to make us posing manufacturing to make some steam wooden tubes So that's what they did and they were also making music stands for schools and colleges All over britain and all over the commonwealth and they have the exclusive contract So that was worth millions and the Boss of teams and sons in the 50s wanted to retire, but he had no family to leave company to So one of the premier board Got wind of this and bought the company ostensibly to get the music stand contract But they also acquired the drum company so They set up bevelly drums was this as a separate company. We've never owned by premier It was set up as a separate company with a manager appointed and even they had standard sized drums Uh Eventually because when premier started making their drums, they gave them all the pre international sizes But john k would have uh, I was fortunate to have to speak to you about 10 15 years ago He wanted to make um bevelly proper competitors to ludwig. Of course They basically copy board. He wants to copy ludwig and Well, there's there's another big story coming interesting story coming with this as well That just popped into my memory so he um, so he basically he really forced the issue on Um getting premier to make proper standard international sized shells You know to drag them kicking and screaming into the You know the late 20th century but he um These bevelly drums were He really admitted and he made no bones about it. He was copying ludwig because at the time ludwig were the biggest thing on the planet because of ringo and he copied their finishes He he went as close as he could to copying their lugs without copyright infringement And he went over to a chicago drum show with one of his kits um Over to his stand wandered william ludwig I think it must have been the second by then the ludwig the second. Yeah and um He was and he said he was very nice. It's very polite and he went off to a Side room and he took with him what was called at the time a snare drum called the cosmic 21 and these 21 snare drums i've reached a legendary status with collectors of british drums Because they are a 400 copy As near as dammit In and a lot a lot of people say in sound as well Now i'm not going to get into whether or not it sounds as good as the 400 because i know i'll get myself into all sorts of trouble Uh death threats and all that sort of you're on your phone. You're secluded. You're safe It's uh, yeah Well, I don't know. I just think you know one day if I if I said something like that, you know The helicopters hovering out in the in the orchard or something and uh, yeah some guy hanging out with it with a with a very large gun but anyway, um The uh, so he went off to this room and the and bill little took the drum apart and he had a Inspector nodded and said that's a really nice drum that didn't really really well very impressed and off he went And john said he didn't mention once that it was on an almost faithful replica Bar one or two very small differences to the drum that his company was making Anyway spin-on a few years and I remember talking uh on a drum for them Many years later Now, I don't know how true all of this So I've sort of assembled this from a number of different sources But I remember somebody telling me or reading it somewhere that certain Ludwig 400s Are from the 60s are really pitted And others are not so pitted and then ones from the early 70s Are really pitted and strong so forth So there seems to be a batch apparently That are not nearly as pitted as others Well, that's easy enough. You put that down, you know, it's just that's the way, you know, chrome is chrome and And alo, you know are not very good bedfellows and will eventually go out company. Sure now As I'm sure, you know and all your listeners know, but I'll tell you anyway One of the great things about premiere one of its most famous attributes. It's outstanding chrome work And legend has it and I've never managed to pinpoint any proof of this whatsoever but they the chrome shop was Owned by the family the Delaporte family, but it was not part of premiere And they used to do the chrome work for Rolls Royce grills and other grills And that was one of their sort of that's why it was set up as a different company so we could do Other stuff as well as the the drum And it is it's hard to deny it is outstanding compared with many others On another occasion I was chatting with a chap. Unfortunately. He's one of those. He's no longer with us and unfortunately the email that he sent me I lost in a Quite tragic computer meltdown a few years ago So it's only my say so and My memory. Yeah, sure, but he told he told me that a Two container loads of beaded 14 by 5 inch chrome aloo shells left a certain drum factory in Leicester Destined for a certain drum factory in Chicago. Oh, man around 1967 1968 And that's all I'm gonna say That's all I'm gonna say so Perhaps the very famous Ludwig supraphonic 400 snare drum Had a little bit of premiere in its in its history Well, you you might you could say that I couldn't possibly come I really couldn't say with any of you. Yeah, we want to keep you safe We want to keep you safe out in your in the farm and not have you attacked by uh, Well, this yeah, well, this was a guy who Was a I'm not going to name him because he's not around anymore to Correct me or refute it But he was a very big player Then the international drum scene and he worked with a lot of the big names including cremia and who became sort of correspondents Up until he's unfortunate and quite punctual passing a few years ago, but Yeah, he uh He definitely said that there was two container lobes And that and that's how he worded it and let me fill in the blank. So I think that's how I will leave it. I think it's cool People can take it or leave it. I just think it's neat now that we're kind of putting it out in the world Uh and and passing it along is kind of an oral history of Is this true? Is it not true? Um, so now it's yeah You know, well, that's a great, uh, british orphan Douglas Adams once said about He was the premier book the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy about some Questionable claim that somebody was making he said, uh, it was I uh wildly apocryphal or the load of bs, you know, you can you can Make your choice. It's urban legend or it is true But the fact that uh, this guy said it to me Uh, or you know wrote it to me that um, that that is what happened and I I just made the connection with this discussion that um, Ludwig fans were having about why is it some of these drums get really really petty and some of them from the This date aren't and then after the ones after this date are really really petty I don't know. It's just some of the pieces made Yeah, it may be maybe There's there's a little bit of Rolls Royce and some of the uh, some of the nice ones, which is funny. Um, yeah They did say in the 70s, didn't they? Well, certainly the advertising in on this side of the pond Um, Ludwig claimed to be the Rolls Royce of Trump. So, uh, man The conspiracy theories keep getting deeper and deeper here. Um, oh, I've got loads of them, honestly It's going for days. That's funny. That's another podcast. I I've also heard too about how um There's a brazilian company penguin or penguin drums that made very very very, uh, uh True to form Ludwig replicas. Um going back, I think to the 50s and I'm pretty sure It would be bill Ludwig the second I believe so b2 Would have seen that I think he saw them and said these are amazing. These are the best replicas. I've ever seen Um, and so on and so forth. So I don't think he was very much like a um, I'm gonna take this replica and squash you You know, I think right yeah Meyer so that's that's the kind of the second time I've heard that Story of him seeing something and not losing his mind out in anger, but but rather saying this is this is well done Well, yeah, I mean I I'd never met the guy. I don't know anything about him, but um, he just seemed to be I mean Is it billed with the third? Yeah, the uh, he's yeah I'm friends with him on facebook. We've never actually met but in our exchanges You seems like a really really really nice guy and I suspect it's a family trait. So I don't think it's the stretch of the imagination to say that um, you know The his uh, his ancestors were equally nice people. Oh, yeah No, he yeah, he's been on the show. He's a very nice guy and and wfl three drums are beautiful and uh, everyone should check those out as well So Yeah, sure. Oh, yeah, they're great. They look they look wonderful Yeah, so let's um, let's move it on forward and kind of take it through. I think that was a great like, uh Some some good we got some controversy in the episode now. So so you said they were owned um Family owned until 1983. So what happened from 83 and then and then maybe bring it on up to the modern days Okay, well before we do that, we've got to do the 70s. Oh, yeah, because that is another thing and unfortunately It kind of involves Ludwig again um, what happened was in the early 70s Premiere made a deal with Selma. Yeah, who I'm sure you're familiar with To be the u.s. Distributors And basically what happened was Selma as far as I can make out with any degree of accuracy Were became shareholders in premier and they had someone on the board in the uk And this was at the time when premier had committed to building their new purpose built factory Which was it was supposed to be something like a quarter of a million pounds in 1966 when they announced it By the time they moved in in 1976 it had cost Several times more maybe two or three million. I don't know because we had you know rampant inflation there was you know, the oil crisis there's all sorts of political and social problems going on in the day at the time So they were really I think It's financially stretched But having said that the 70s is what a lot of people consider to be their golden age When they actually they really got it so right and you only have to look at from sort of the say the 1969 brochure up to the 1980 brochure and They're just you can see it. They've got it right. They look good. They've presented well They've got all this Silly sizes out the way. They had decent hardware. They have the beautiful lock fast flush based hardware. They have the the trial lock High tripod Hardware And all of this all this stuff was just so well made the trial lock hardware was made Almost entirely of steel All the colors were pressed steel. The only things that were cast were The hand nuts and the little tilt are on the top Everything else was made out of pressed steel and there was a little plastic inserts and rubber feet But they they were just So incredibly well built And people I mean I still got a set today The 40 plus years old and they are as good as If not better than what we're guessing From the far east now because there's no what we call cast parts from monkey metal Yeah, you know this really cheap low grade um Castings that's you know of no use to man the beast In any other industrial application Yeah and they really Were they really got on top of the game and they were keeping up with All the other companies everything else that the other companies in some cases were getting ahead of the game They were nosing ahead um, but what happened was they got to The early 80s by which time the Invasion from japan was really starting to fight And in particular from a company called fell which we all know and love now And they had to really rethink The what they were doing in order to compete because up until then they'd had Olympic drums which were their budget line and basically Olympic drums were just as good as premier drums They just cut a few corners by instead of having diecast tubes They had steel hoops We had smaller and less lugs on them. So based around six lugs instead of eight or ten That sort of thing they made savings that the shells were the same as top line Kits who was exactly the same so For all intents and purposes they sound exactly the same And they got to the early 80s where they really had to do something to try and stave off the the problem of the The invasion by pearl who'd come in with the export And They were just you know sweeping the board. Yeah everyone everyone with buying pearl So they came up with Well, it kind of illustrates the kind of panic they were in they came up with a kit called the disco now. I don't know about you but In 1982 when we called it the disco I was around at the time disco dead in 1982 Yeah, a little after the fact You might as well have called it diphtheria or measles it was really Needless to say they had a rethink it was the same kits were available I believe and again, it's one of those great things about premier Can't actually get complete another confirmation, but we were shipped to america under the senator banner for mail order only So you can mail order yourself a budget premier kit, but we had little senator badges on it instead of disco Yeah, that's a little better still still not the best name for a drum set. Yeah No, it's better now And you won't be surprised to know that the disco name dropped Less than a year later. Yeah, and it became and he became wait for it the royale That's better. So Now that has that. Yes. So somebody actually had to think about it Now what they also did was they introduced another line just above it Uh, this budget line because this budget line was they were making it from well, basically the same would feel We're making their exports out. It was um I think it's philippine mahogany called liwan or maranti um, and um, it It depends what where you come from or what would shock you go to name the kit, but it's basically a a cheap um, uh, a cheap mahogany But they brought in another one another line just above it which had um birch, which is their traditional wood of choice shells Yeah in applies and out applies, but it still had the core of Uh, the mahogany and this was called the crown Now you can see they were getting the they're getting the names a bit better Yeah, and it sort of fitted with the british heritage and all that. Yeah, really Yes, well the big problem that has occurred now was Selma At the end of 1981 had bought mudwig drums Now i'm i'm gonna have to fill in some gaps here because i don't know exactly what happened But i think it's safe to assume That ludwig would said to premier right we're off mate. We don't need you anymore. We've got a drum company here Back in our homeland so we're gonna pull our Board member out and we're gonna sell our shares in the company I think what happened was the The family panicked And they bought the shares from Selma in order to keep the ownership in in you know in the family and Unfortunately this seems to ring true because At the end of 1983 The receivers were called in because they'd gone broke They'd run out of money And it appears that all the pension funds that all the employees have been paid into were gone so and i this this a few people i've spoken to who's still absolutely Enraged by this now because they they were paying into this private pension fund With the company on the proviso that when they reach a time age They would have enough money to to live out the rest of their lives But all this money was gone and Through i think it was probably used by out selma so that's But again, i must stress i must make this absolutely clear that is only Speculation on my part. So i've got a little bit of evidence. I've got a fact here. I've got a fact there Yeah, though somebody's testimony here I've put them together and you fill in the gaps And you put them together and you say well it kind of fits it kind of makes sense From what people have told me and what happened and what you were what, you know, that is in printed form in the contemporaneous music publications It it fits that that is possibly what happened, but I wasn't there. I don't know so but yeah, there's some great stories of the um The day that it all happened and people running out into the car park with papers under their arms and throwing things into car trunks and driving off at high speed and it was uh, it's Almost like a carry-on film that um very very very sad. Yeah, um, so anyway just to get Up to date what happened was there was a management buyout in april of 1984 Uh, this was financed by the royal bank of scotland and Premier seemed to be doing reasonably well, but it you know, they were still you're still obviously struggling because by The middle of 1987 the bank were I think were losing Faith in the operation and yamaha were looking for a european manufacturing base So they could get round import duties into europe and uh royal bank of scotland by whatever means Put the two together and I said well funny what we've got perfect place for you. It's a purpose built drum factory It's already making drums. Yeah, and um I did hear a story actually that uh yamaha were very very keen to To get in there because they wanted to get their hooks into the premier chroming process You know the chroming process we talked about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but that was that but as I said that was Wasn't owned by chromia that was owned by the family and the family had gone in 1983 and they kept the chroming company So chromia had I don't know whether they kept using them or they had to go somewhere else But so I have heard a tale that yamaha were a little crestfallen when you know, they came down and said Where'd you do the chrome? Said oh, we don't do the chrome. We send it out to this place in Birmingham That's one of those things with the the whole story. You're like you're like no They would have checked that and then and then you but you keep with a lot of these companies You keep hearing things like that like no they They thought they were getting out and they just didn't know no Trust me. Trust me. I know I've worked with some Companies albeit briefly. Yeah, and the the guy at the top is honestly Sometimes I think how on earth did you get where you are now? How do you remember to put your trousers on the right way around in the morning? Yeah Okay, so goes from selmer to the to the royal bank of scotland Royal bank of scotland to yamaha, right so yamaha they introduced a lot of New manufacturing processes that premier really benefited from And they actually made a line for the power five or the power v kits in england in the factory And they are identical to the premier x. I think it's apk or x pk apk. Sorry because they will run and Yeah, everyone. I know are spoken to said when yamaha came in You know, they didn't they didn't change the name on the outside of the factory They didn't change the letter heads or anything like that They just manufactured in there and they manufactured certain yamaha drum lines In the uk there but the premier the premier lines continued But the premier lines you could see there was a cross pollination of components and parts and stands And this went on until I think it was 1992 My memory serves right And yamaha just said decided no, we don't need this anymore And they did a deal with the guy at royal bank of scotland who bought it for him to buy it He took over He ran the company until 1997 then he sold it to an american company called ferrity Which i believe are a very big organization Or at least were making speakers and other sort of musical related um Kutromo shall we say um I don't think they did a particularly good job of it. I think there was I got the feeling they thought it was going to run itself sell itself on its own. Um, and it was Maybe a little bit more hard work than they were anticipating There was another british buyout Round about the year 2021 that lasted for I think the dates now it all blurs into one because it all There was another management buyout Then they went into receivership Then they opened up the next week as a different company then he went to the receivership again a year later and Uh opened up, you know the following monday, you know one of those things where on friday to go the company's gone bust We don't have to pay out any of the suppliers or the employees monday morning to the open up as a, you know A slightly different named company um and this one and then they shut the uh factory down and And sadly that was demolished a couple years ago. Oh, jeez. Uh, we've got a supermarket there now and uh Yeah, production was all transferred to the far east and There's they have a an office now Uh in this in the midlands in a place called um kibworth uh, and I think it's it's it's Only got a handful of less than 10 people run it now um, but uh, yeah, it's it's it's sad the way it's um sort of Diminished, but you know premier is still out there and there's a lot of people very unfairly That was very cruel about them. I don't know saying no, they're not going to get back to glory days, but So what you know, it's still there. They are they're still making drums doing They're still making drums doing really well. They're really pushing very hard with their Marching Side of things that seems to be there sort of main focus now And um, I know that they are doing very well in some territories Um And who knows, you know, you never know what's around the corner But there is one thing that they've got which I think a lot of companies don't really have There has been some continuity You know, they were all it they were in the same factories um, you know For all that time. Yeah, there was no sort of there was no break. There was no Five-year break and then somebody who's got absolutely nothing to do with them bought the rights to the name and Exactly I started make making them again, which is okay if you want to you know, I don't have a problem people doing that But it's how well hang on it's not really You know, it's a it's a dna strand break really there at least it's been some of the it's been continuous from here since 1922 and Yeah, I mean, I do think people are Sometimes treating them a little bit unfairly because You know, they're not the company that they were but frankly, I'm just glad that they're still around Yeah Now many of the companies that were Giant in the old days. It's it's rare for a company to to be The same. I mean, I'm trying to think I'm sure there's some but like even Like as we were talked about a lot Ludwig. I mean Ludwig has been sold so many times and has been, you know Become kind of a different company. They're still Wonderful and make amazing drums and have very great people who have been lucky enough to talk with but um I think premiere and I've had I've had I had a genista kit an orange sparkle genista kit Very nice drums Yeah Yeah, yes, they were They were actually the They come out must have been about 90 94 when they first came out and they were Like the Signia kits. Yeah um, they were like a Product of the Yamaha years. I mean they weren't made during the Yamaha years but because Yamaha had come in and changed the way that shells were made and their production Methods and the quality went up because of that they uh that things were really sort of Improved if you like. Yeah, uh and modernized quite significantly. I was just gonna say Modernized I think it there was you can kind of see looking at their drums There was a modernization of that and um Yamaha was a great company too. I mean they do a lot of good stuff So, uh, you know, oh, yeah, I I'm absolutely I don't want anyone to think that I've got anything against Yamaha I I love their kits. I love what they've done and I love what they did for the um for the um drum industry In you know pushing the boundaries of quality And you know making people sit up and take notice and tamar are another one as well because they were they were a tiny little um, you know one horse company in the early 70s Making what were, you know, well mediocre drums Then suddenly in the mid 70s. Wow The hardware it was an absolute revelation when that brochure landed on my doormat and so all those You know, what's this? It's it's a multi clamp. It's a multi clamp. Yeah What are they talking about? Yeah boom arm. What's a boom arm? Exactly In the same way we were saying earlier gene group, you know was a pivotal moment certainly in my life the um The arrival of the the the tamar brochure was like a real eye eye And I think it probably even though I was only a youngster. I think for a lot of people in the drum industry, particularly Uh in the premier offices. I'll bet It was a a real sort of uh Slap around the chops shall we say? Yeah, I mean, you know things things change obviously and and I hope that Premier can continue and maybe the name can come back and it's still there But I'm glad we actually had this last bit of the conversation because there's you know as someone who's not Super heavily involved it with premier. Um It's one of those companies where I thought to myself like Are they still creating new drums and obviously you said they're being made in the east, but um, I think You know, it's better than nothing obviously, but it's some companies just go away So it's good to know that they are still fully functioning and and and all that stuff and and who knows what'll happen in the future Yeah, well as we said in the 90s they modernized they modernized big time Yeah, and they were you know, they were very successful And then they struggled a bit in the early 90s and then they struggled a lot And uh had all sorts of um all sorts of problems. Um, but the fact is they survived They had to move with the times like a lot of companies did and a lot of british companies They they they suffered from what? It's called the british disease of thinking they know best What we're doing is the right thing to do. This is how you've got to do it You know, we don't get and I I I've seen it for lots of times. I mean one of my other interest is um It is vintage commercial vehicles And in the 1950s and 60s britain led the world With you know trucks and lorries and all back and specialist vehicles go And it was the only but they they were stuck in their ways. This is how you make it This is how you make this sort of thing and then all the other companies around Particularly in europe We're moving on we're modernizing we're taking these ideas and developing but whereas and I think premula Something the same in the 60s To a certain degree where they say well, this is this is how you know, this is how it's done you know The people's now don't yeah Yeah, who are they you don't care it's not it's a flash in the pan we're not interested And it is a it is a thing and the same thing happened in minorities because we lost MG and rover cars. Yeah, they went under For that for exactly the same reason And it's it is a great shame Poor management and it's like we were saying before, you know, how on earth did you get to be a boss of this company? You're an idiot. Yeah, I think I think I think we overestimate sometimes our We're industrial leaders Because I think sometimes they come home and we just go oh got away with it again brilliant another day. Wow That's every industry. Yeah That's that um But yeah, I Premier are still with us. They are still making a great product and I think that's It's something that I think some people might have to check is You know stop being such a snob about it The fact that it's made in the Far East does not make it any the less word and product Yeah, they are they have they make a quality product And why wouldn't they why wouldn't they want to make the best thing? You know the most cost-effective way they can and the only way you can do it these days is in the Far East You just It is just too expensive to do in the uk now. Mm-hmm. Absolutely well, you're a great ambassador to the company and And england in general so you're the second person from the uk that I've had on the show I believe if I'm not if I'm not forgetting anyone so um So I appreciate you mike, but um, so why don't you really quickly because we'll we'll wrap up here So we don't get too long Why don't you tell people about your youtube series and um and all that good stuff and where they can find you Okay, yeah, um out of uh I started doing a restoration for A drummer for a band that's very big in europe here And I decided that since everybody else and his brother was making videos about everything that they do You know while they have a breakfast and Taking the dog for a walk and that sort of thing. I thought right i'm going to make a video about me restoring this kit Basically, it all got completely out of control and it became this series called the drum Fetler Now for those of you don't know what the word fettle means. It's an old word that is used in It's used in britain and what it means is to take off the um You know like when you make something you'll get a little bit of scurff on the edge If you cut a piece of metal or a piece of wood you get splinters and One fettles away the bits you don't want it's you know, it's almost on a matta pay it and it's You know you fettle away the edges and all that. Yeah, and One of the the great things about the British man is he will go to his shed a to escape the wife and the kids But also to fettle something. Yeah in the in the shed, you know to keep his mind active So that's where it comes from. It's called the drum the drum fettler. Love it. Um The first season was I think was 14 episodes And it's just all about me and my trials and tribulations of getting these Clients kits in and restoring them and cleaning them up and repairing them And there's a few educational bits or I like to think of educational about premiere drums mainly And their history and what have you the second season started a couple weeks ago. There's uh Then we're up to episode six The episode seven is to tomorrow. Wow. So yeah, if you go to youtube and search for the drum effectively You've got a lot of catching up to do. Yeah So, uh, you know, I suggest you get over there this evening and I shall be asking questions afterwards Cool. Well, when this episode finally comes out whenever that is I gotta, you know Get it all together. I'm sure people can go there and uh, you'll still be doing it and um, and releasing Oh, yes, and and learn all about everything you're doing which um It's just cool to get your perspective again from from being me in america And it's just nice to hear your side of things with all of this. Um We're not so different. Yeah, well No, no, no, I don't think so. It's yeah, we're all uh, we're all drum nerds in one way or another And uh, I just hope I haven't upset too many people I was shattered any, uh, any illusions they may have had, but um, yeah, no I'll keep an eye out for that helicopter. Yeah, the Ludwig the uh, a super fauna helicopter coming after you Yeah, that's it. They'll be uh Oh, hang on. Look, yes, I can see them the gathering of the edge of the garden the burning sticks There's lots of them. Oh boy. Well, then we better let you go and and uh, take care of that. So All right, I'll I'll I'll release the hounds perfect. Mike. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be on the show and I wanted to give a big thank you to Uh, similar to the the gary aster's episode. You were recommended to me by andy dweyer. Um, who Passed your information along as being a uh, premier expert. So, um, thank you andy. That's very kind of you Yeah, and uh, and that's it. So Mike ellis everyone. Um, check him out on youtube at the drum fettler f e t t l e r and uh, keep up with them there and uh Thanks a lot, mike. Appreciate you being on the show. Thanks for having me. I've really enjoyed it If you like this podcast, find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning This is a Gwyn sound podcast