 I didn't hear the warm welcome though, applause. Did you? Oh, thank you, thank you, awesome. So great to be here. You are in for a treat because these ladies are very fun as you are about to find out. They're co-ceos, they come in matching outfits. We've coordinated, we've got the blondes on either side and the brunette in the middle. Yeah, we got the brains in the middle. Okay, well, excuse me. That's your problem. So ladies, your co-ceos, take us back to the beginning. How did you meet, how did this beautiful partnership come about? Your version of mine. Let's take you. Yeah, let's mine, mine is the grander version and then she'll give it to us anyway. Yeah, well, as I am, as you see, the older one, I used to be building a bank in Finland called S Bank and at that point I was the CIO of the bank and then we had core banking service provider called Krosky Banking Solution and I kept hearing about a very, how should I say, ambitious and strict young lady working over there and they called her Denise and I was like, Denise said this and Denise said that and I was like, yeah, I wonder who the fuck that Denise is. Then fast forward, a couple of years we met and I decided to join the dark side, so quitting at the bank and joining Krosky and that's how our paths crossed and we've been working together for, I think it's like soon 15 years and yeah, she's my better half in business and in life also, so we were never friends but now we are more than that because we share the same ambition level. So that's the true and now she's looking at me that this is the short version. No, yeah. And how did you come to actually start a company together and whose idea was it? Who suggested it? It was Monica's idea. She called me one day in February, six and a half years, almost seven years ago but from the day she joined the dark side she immediately asked for me to join her team and I said yes and from day one it just worked so good with us. We knew where we had each other even though we didn't actually know each other but we sensed like business wise, ambitious wise, values wise, we knew exactly. So we worked together there for six, seven years and when she quit, we never said goodbye. We said that we are going to work together again, let's see when in time and with what and it took less than three months. I was in maternity leave and she just called me should we and after one year home with a child I was like yes, what shall we do? Start a business. Yes, let's do. And so we did. So you've been co-CEO's right from the start was there ever any. What does that mean in practice? Apparently Salesforce now has co-CEO's. So you've said. Yeah, they've probably heard about us. You've said a real trend. How does that work in practice? Yeah, that's many levels but I think the really important thing is the 110% trust. So meaning that I just got a question yesterday that if there's some agreement that needs to be signed do you need to see it and blah blah blah. No, because we are on a mission. We are building interviews to be the best and fastest and globally scalable payment service provider. We want the world to be a better place with an empty use in it than not. So that's where it all comes from. And then we're so fucking awesome that when like for example here at Slash we've been meeting all the investors who want to pump in money into us. So instead of me having only 12 meetings we could have that double up. So that's how we work. So we execute faster and better because there's two of us really knows how to get shit done. And have you sort of divided and conquered? Are there things, what are you better at than her? I'm better at structure. I'm better at planning. I am. And I'm better to concretize when real things needs to get going. But she's visionary, energy and tech. But no, we haven't like split it on a paper. This is Monica, this is Denise but anyone who works with us they need like how many minutes did you get with us? Five, 10 minutes. And you saw the dynamic between us. Like you don't need to spend more than a few minutes and you sense what we are and how we work together. But if we need to generalize numbers, me, tech, Monica. So you haven't, are there any things you've had to put in place to make it make sense for the team? No, I think, well, put it like this. We actually decided now when we are scaling and we've been fortunate enough now to hit numbers in a way that we could take in our series C last year and take in our next level people. So what we realized is that we need someone to help everyone in the management team understand each other faster. So we have a so-called mental coach or he probably has some better name, I don't know what. But we call him Santa Claus. But he's really good. So what he does is that he coaches each and every one of us to understand ourselves better so that when we communicate, it becomes faster. So the trust built between us for the past 10 plus years we need to boil that down faster. So that's what we are doing in order to become better and faster. So have you done anything else to kind of make that trust between you even stronger? You have mentors? No, not between the two of us. We talk way too many times a day. We text each other even more every day. I do think that I share more words with her than with my husband most of the time. So and I think that's what you need to do. You need to keep the communication open and honest and it needs to be 100% transparent at all time. Is there not times though when you could argue that as a CEO, if you didn't need to kind of keep each other on top of what you're both doing, if you didn't have to keep sort of updating the other person, you'd be able to just get more stuff done? No, no. Because you would probably get more shit stuff done. But when you need to get actual shit done, like awesomeness, who is ever best? You need to have someone to bounce the ideas. Because often, especially with Denise when she comes in, it's more like, this is how I'm thinking, this is what we should do, because this is the target we're going for. It makes sense, couple of questions, and then speaking it out clarifies it to yourself. So actually I believe that that's the secret source, that when you have someone, and I often use this dialogue example also, that we're like parents, because when you have a lot of kids, they try to play you. So I would say it's me and her against the rest of the world, but meaning in a way that since we are aligned, everything becomes much faster, because it doesn't mean that we're like, okay, I'm gonna sign this, what do you think? Or should I have this? No, it's the big picture ticket items that matter. Yeah, and have you had instances in the past where members of the team have been like, she'll let me get away with this, but the other one was... Yes, definitely they try. They try, and I think as an account... But they don't survive. No. So they really don't survive. But some people have a really hard time, like even though if you meet us, if you spend some time with us, and you still think that actually I'm going to play this way because then my career, or it's always then like personal based, like I can't understand how you can be that stupid, that you would believe that some random could actually come and break what we have. Yeah, because people are actually stupid in that way. They try to play you against, because they think that because I am a bit more like open, like this talk a lot more, that I would be some level like more easy going, but actually what it's for me is like, I am very nice until I'm not. So I really don't like people that don't deliver. And what then happens is that I just thought, they kind of die for me. So I'm like, okay, I'm not wasting my energy on that. And then he's like, hey, you can't do that. You need, okay, all right. So I think that's also the good thing. Yeah, and is the open community, is just communicating constantly the key thing to make sure nothing gets. Yeah, and not living in the same place. Oh yeah, this is crazy as well. They don't actually see each other very often. No, that's why I'm excited here. I'm like, are you excited to be at Flush and Stay? Yeah, okay, yeah, woo, woo. But I'm excited to be with Denise because since we live in different parts, we've been remote for, but I do think that that's what keeps it fresh. Yeah, I don't think. So you think the long-distance career-co-relationship is the right one. What would happen if you spent too much time in the same physical location? I think like this, the energy burst that comes from having this, I think I would just, you know, burn out. I would die. I'm like, fuck. I actually think that we would just spend too much time with each other. So we actually wouldn't have families on the side. And it is the families that keep us sane throughout this journey. So we would probably burn them out and then it would be just the two of us and then we would burn out. So yeah. Do you think you kind of hold, do you think you have highest standards for yourselves because you are co-CEOs? I have a deputy editor who I run Sifted with and she's such a fucking star that I like, I don't, you know, you have those days where you're like, I just want to take it easy, but I'm like, Ellen, that's not taking it easy. So I've got to step up to the mark as well. Is that, does it feel a bit like that? You should step up, step up Amy now. I know, I do. She's set a high bar. I understand the question, doesn't mean I relate. What I'm trying to say is that, you know, of course there are days like when the other one is more like, fuck, but you wake up every morning, IPO 2027. How do we get energy to become the company one? Cause that's where we are going. That's the goal. So being tired is not an option. And I think one thing that I have had to learn is that I need to be more, I can be merciful to us. Like, okay, let's take it, yeah, yeah. But I think one thing that I need to be better at and Denise helps me with that is the communications side also because I know that everyone doesn't have to be like that. M2 is also a lot of great people. Every one of them aren't founders, so it is different. But I need to disagree with her a little bit. Good, and I'm good at disagreeing with her. I do hear what you say, but if it would be just me, would I wake up and do all the shit every day 365? No, probably not. So I do think it helps that you have someone with a high standard. Could I let myself down? Probably yes. Would I let Monica down? No, it's the same with the family. Like, could I let myself down? Would I let my kids down? Never. So I do think it actually helped. And now you'd agree with me. Now, yeah, cause I understand it. Cause she's explaining it better than you. She's better, oh. Amy, tips from the coach? Not like I'm a professional communicator. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How's it going for you? Is being a co-CEO something that has to be put in place right from the start, do you think? Or is it something, you know, if someone had a superstar, CPO or COO, is it something that a founder CEO could elevate someone to that position? Or do you think it needs to be there right from the very beginning? Now I'm going to take this. I see what you are going to answer. But I'm going to say no. I don't think that it needs to be in place. And even though this is the way we have been leading the company from day one, we haven't officially been the co-CEOs from day one because we didn't understand co-CEO was a concept seven years ago. So like one of us had the title and we shifted it a little among the years and we have a lot of companies. Depending on the situation. But then when someone actually said it out loud that the co-CEOs and we were like, what did you say? That actually makes sense. And then we officially became it. So I do think that it's more about the foundation in the relationship and the common goal and vision than it is like placing time when you have to say it out loud. Yeah, and I think that's the challenging part. Like what, how do you get it successful? So if we were sitting here now and being investors and going into investing something, would we say that you should have a co-CEO? No, because there has to be dynamics. And then the title becomes just like, but this is what we are. This is how we run the show. And then you get that. So I would have a hard time understanding how you could find that dynamic. Cause in the end of the day, it's about absolute trust. What did you, you've raised a lot of money and you must be one of the only female founded companies in Europe to have raised that much. So congratulations. Thank you. Ah yeah, you're learning. Was being co-CEOs ever a kind of sticking point for investors? Were they like, but which one of you do we put under the thumb? There's two of you. No, it was actually, it was the latest investor. So Vitruvian partners. They were the one putting a name on what we are. And they, after everything was done, they admitted that it was the demonic between us early in that journey that they saw that the two of them, they have something that we rarely see. Let's make this investment. They did play hard all the way around, so it wasn't easy to run. And they still do. I mean like, they're not working in the park. But yeah, so no, they more embrace like, what can they see in companies? What do they see in founders that could make that company become bigger than most of the rest? That's what they are looking for. And for us and for Enfuse, it was the dynamic between us and the energy and how much we can get going in a short period of time. This is a bit boring, but are there like legal complexities that come with being co-CEOs? You know, do you find there are bits of paperwork where you just have to put one of your names down? Yeah, yeah, and like, so we are both CEOs because the Finnish law doesn't recognize a co-CEO and it's all about who goes to jail. That's kind of, that's the ultimate, who goes to jail. I go to jail for one company. So Enfuse is two companies. It's the financial services that does the payment processing as a service. And then we have Enfuse license service that has the EMI license, et cetera. So if the license and the FSA becomes pissed off, she goes to jail. And if something else goes to shit, I go to jail. Okay, so that's how you shared it, Al. Yes. I know of, well, now we know Salesforce has co-CEOs. Yeah, who's going to jail. That's probably the reason they want to shift who goes to jail. Let's Google that up. Maybe we'll find, I can't confirm this, by the way. But the other startups I know is co-CEOs. It's all women. I mean, do you think there's anything in that? Do you think it is more natural to women like to share more? Or do you not want to? No, no, I don't, no. Probably have, yeah, I can have many thoughts. I've been a woman in a very male-driven industry for a very, very long time. And I said that the ones that I've had the most challenges with hasn't been men. It's been women. So I really think that it's great if it is so, because we women need to learn to support each other much more. So I don't, I don't know. There are probably a lot of stuff written about it. But I do think that men in general are better at supporting each other. So maybe they don't need the structure, because there is the CEO, deputy CEO. I don't know. But in the end, I don't really care as long as it works for us. I guess you don't have a point of comparison, but it must be, I mean, is it, do you think it's less kind of stressful when you talk to other founders or less, you know, the burden is shared? Yes, 100%. You know, if you have a shitty pitch meeting with an investor. Never had that. Never had that. Really? Can't relate, but... You've never had a shitty pitch meeting with an investor. Yeah, in 2019, they were all shit. I mean, like, the investors are shit, not us. Oh, no, no, no, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You guys, obviously not you guys. But yes, we have had a lot of shit in the meeting. OK, I was going to say that. We've got a news story. Yeah, yeah, my bad, my bad. You really need to step it up and explain what you mean, Amy. But yeah. But does that help? That they all raise someone else? I think you can be like... Yes, that's the best part. Yeah, and then I have to say... When I was working with her at the previous company, she actually bought me a birthday gift, which was this piece of paper that had a voodoo doll that I could write the name of the person that pissed me off and then, like, draw... I don't say, fuck, I love this woman, like... So, yes, we've talked about investors also. Yeah, well, what's the worst bit about being cosies? I mean, right now, I'm like, if ever I was mad enough to start a company, I want a cosy, oh, look at this, this is awesome. That was not so good about it. No, but I don't have anything bad to say about it. I wouldn't do this journey alone. No, but I wouldn't do this alone. I like... Because so much shit happens to you. Yes, every day. Shit hits the fan every day. And it's good that someone comes with the umbrella, like, hey, Monica, shit is flying in your face. So, got your back. Yeah, but it's also like... Because I don't think that you should put all that burden on the rest of the people around you. I think you should limit, like, that's your burden as the founder and as the CEO. But to carry that, all that weight, all that shit weight on your own, like, how do you get it? Like, those that are alone, how do they survive? Exactly, like a small example, we had a small thing called COVID hits. We had the war starting, the downturn coming. You can't go to the company and say, hey, this is going to shit. It's not going for us anymore, thankfully. But like, the first four years is very hard so that you can share that, I think it keeps you sane. And it also puts things into perspective. Because like, I am a person, I'm like, okay, is anyone going to die? No, okay, but then it's a positive thing. And then we start rolling back from that. But do you have anything bad? Come on. No, I think the only thing that she keeps bitching about me being so much older, but like, she would do that regardless of the title. So if someone here is thinking about setting up a startup or they're a crazy serial entrepreneur and they want to set up another one, what are some like practices, routines, things you do every week, every day, as co-CEOs, that really helps? Like you talk all the time, what else do you do? What else is different from a sort of normal CEO week to week? We talk all the time. I'm like serious, I talk a lot anyways, but I put it like this, we don't talk all the time, we communicate all the time. So I think like once we had 15 meetings with the investors in one day, a fucking nightmare. And between that we shared like 35 WhatsApps and stuff. So I think it's about, but like, especially her, Denise is very to the point, like no BS, like allergic mega. And I'm just so fucking lazy at reading stuff. So I think my tip is like spend time with each other. And I think that's what we always said, like every time we spend time, so we actually have this system that at least every quarter, we spend quality time together. But I need to add to that. What do you do? Is it sauna? Yeah, champagne. And champagne, cool, nice. But I need to add to that because what I do think that we do, and maybe more me than her, but it's also like what is the most important for us to get done this week? That's Monday morning. Yeah. And what bullshit will she have in her calendar that we can clean away? Yes. Because that's her calendar. Fine, because I decline everything. So if you are declined by me, I don't mean anything bad, but I just do it all the time and she accept. And then every day, like are we on the track to get this week's most urgent actions done? And what do we need to get done today? So I think every morning we need to know, and that's not like me or her or Cosio's, that's company-wise. What will Enfuse need to do today? Yeah, and tomorrow and this week. Yes. To reach where we are going. And just reminding yourself and your partner in crime of that every day, that's how you keep the focus, that's how you keep moving forward. But we have like every Monday, 8.15, start with, okay, what the fuck needs to happen this week? Yeah. Because then stuff will start happening to you. And what stuff do you do together? Like what stuff is it important or better that there's both of you? And what stuff do you divide and conquer? It's not too much that we do together. I think it's mostly internal stuff. So how do we wanna structure, like real stuff within the company when we both look at things from very different perspective. So then it is actually better to get two brains on that. But if it's external meetings, if it's events, we don't need to be both there. Then we decide sometimes, like now we just need to get some energy or join me on this one because of something. But yeah, Sauna, sometimes, I'm more a Sauna person than she is, but we... But I'm good at champagne. Yeah, exactly. I can't wait for that. What are the questions that people ask you when they find out you're co-ceos? What does everyone always say like, how does that work? Yeah, yeah. It's like how does that, especially if they met her first, then they met me or the other way around it. They are confused. You can see it in their face. They're like, how does this? Nobody has died. If they die, it's none of us that's gonna die, it's someone else. But I think also if you meet only one of us, then they're like, how does that work comes more often than if you meet us as a duo? Yeah, at the same time. Because then it's like, okay, something makes sense. I don't know exactly how to read the two of them, but something makes sense around them. Is there, as part of onboarding, is there a like moniker in Denise 101, how the hell this thing works? Probably there will be going forward a bit more that we have on boarding to tell and the reason why we're founded. And then of course all the natural stuff. But I'm doing that. Because if she joins in on that, it will be one hour of bullshit. So I do want them to get the full story of where we started, where we are, how the concept of COCOs works. In 15 minutes. So, yes. But there is, yeah, one more. Is it how much do people sort of bring it up when you're hiring? Is it a key part of your employer brand? Is it a reason people want to join? I love it when journalists supply and they're like, we really like that it's run by two women. I'm like, yeah. I do think that it comes up quite often. If you are going to work close to us, then of course you want to understand even better, how does that work? Who do I report to? How do we run meetings together? How do we get fast decisions? But I know that it's also, most often by females though, they can comment that, oh, I want to work for a company with COCOs, and women COCOs. Yeah. Do you have any, we have three minutes on the clock, and they're very strict on timing. Yes. Good old Finland. Do you have any final bits of advice or perhaps warning for people who might be considering this? What kinds of people just should not attempt a co-CEO relationship? I would say that if you have a need to be the one signing of things, if you think that there is an absolute value for you as a human being to be the one, then you shouldn't be a co-CEO, but for us the absolute value is to get enthused to be where it can be, because then we built jointly together something that we can be proud of, and that's why we are working. And I think you need to know yourself inside and out, like what are your deepest core values as a human being, what do you believe in, and how do you translate them into your everyday business life? Because in the end, again, when shit hits the fan, like that's going to, exactly when someone needs to hold the umbrella for you, it's going to be based, though fast decisions are going to be based on your deepest core values. And if you are far away from each other on those, then it won't work when things get hard. And for us, like they were perfect match. So the same discussions that you may have with the spouse you are thinking that should we have children with, all the same discussions you should have when it comes to business with a partner that you consider being the co-CEO together with you. So what do we do if we are faced with bankruptcy, if we are faced with... Yeah, firing a lot of people, or if we need to scale and move abroad, or whatever, all those discussions should be held that when, not if, when shit hits the fan, you take the right umbrella, not the one with the holes and it's causing your face, but that's really the tip. Yes, you need to talk through the worst, most difficult stuff you might have to go through and check that neither of you is going to do something the other one would be like. Yeah, and I would say that when it comes to, for the early days, when we did the shareholder agreement, we put all those structures in place, not to protect us as single-leady videos, but to protect the company. So if we would ever have some, you know, I don't know, brain fart and start thinking of doing something stupid, we would understand the consequence. And having all that done gives us the focus to focus on what actually matters and that's execution for Enfuse. So prenup in marriage, shareholder agreement with your co-CEO and co-founder, definitely need to be in place. Amazing, ladies, this has been the most fun, probably of any slot. You've probably said this before, yeah? No, that's never been said before. In your lifetime. My whole lifetime agreed. And when is the IPO coming? 2027. All right, we're going to be on stage at slash 2027. It'll be the end of the year. Yes. And I've got it done. Let's remember. That's two of you. Deal. Great. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. Thank you.