 Hi, I just started recording. Perfect. Thank you very much. So welcome everybody, Delta Talks number eight online. Great discussion that we've had so far last month we had Delta Talks Live, which was even a little bit better today again back online. And you know it's a webinar series hosted by Wacheningen University and the Asian MegaDeltas Initiative. Today we have an interesting talk around inclusive water governance in Bangladesh and I will hand it over to Deepa to give a quick introduction in a minute. But Marianne, would you like to say a few words from Wacheningen? I'm happy that we have again this Delta Talk whose number we still have to discover. And it's very nice to have now talk about governance in Bangladesh. I'm very much looking forward. We already earlier had Delta Talks on governance issues, so I'm really curious. So now what you learned from Bangladesh looking forward was the presentation and the discussion afterwards. So do I, and in order to have enough discussion time, that should be enough from us. Deepa, would you like to give a brief introduction and then hand it over to the speaker for today? Hi everyone, this is Deepa Joshi and welcome. The focus of Work Package 4 of the Asian MegaDeltas is on inclusive governance. And particularly our focus has been in understanding why Bangladesh has fairly progressive policies on inclusive governance, but we don't often see the outcomes of these processes on the ground. So what are the barriers, what are the challenges, what needs to change in order to move from policies that are quite progressive to ground reality that seem very resistant to change. So without further ado, I would invite my colleagues who will be presenting. Indu Sharma is part of the Asia MegaDeltas team and works at the International Water Management Institute. Muklesh Rahman is the director of the organization Center for Natural Resources Studies based in Bangladesh. And we have also Shanta Sohele Moina who works with Oxfam Bangladesh. And I think what is also interesting about this particular joint presentation is that we are working very closely with CNRS and Oxfam and really trying to see how the research in AMD can leverage some policy outcomes and impact on the ground through the Oxfam-Trosa phase 2 project. So over to you Indu, thanks a lot. Thank you so much Deepa and good afternoon everyone. I'm very much pleased to be a part of these Delta talks. So I'm just going to share the screen. I hope the screen is visible. Yes, the screen is visible. Yes, thank you so much. So as Deepa mentioned, we are focusing more on the inclusive water governance in Bangladesh. So for the next 20 minutes, we'll start with the AgriFour system governance as a whole. What does it mean like the distinction between the policies and the practice? And then after that we'll take more into the water governance from the AgriFour system. Looking at the real challenges from the field, we'll hear from Dr. Moklis from CNRS. And the third topic would be to really highlighting three key issues that is affecting the implementation. And finally, we'll talk about how the research will impact the overall, you know, like the Trosa activity that Oxfam and CNRS are doing. So here, talking about the AgriFour governance. Like last year, work package 4, we developed a governance matrix that includes for seven different dimensions of inclusive governance. So using the same framework, we reviewed 23 different policies on agriculture, food system, climate change and natural resource management to look into how they are inclusive of gender and different social aspects. So as Deepa mentioned briefly, we found that Bangladesh is very much going into this strategic shift in terms of inclusive policies in climate resilient and AgriFour system sphere. However, these policies significantly differ on their focus on social inclusion and gender inequality as very much fragmented across different sectors. So there is still a considerable disconnect between what we experienced from the field, the issues of AgriFour system, AgriFour and then in between the expert-led innovations that are implemented. There have been a lot of structural power hierarchies and other barriers that exclude women and marginalized groups in participating in accessing different resources. And one of the key findings is that there are a lot of, you know, like we have really good policies, however, accompanying guidelines are really missing. And then also it also leads to a lack of, you know, monitoring evaluation of kind of mechanisms. So the question for us is to really on how do we change these status from, you know, like making policies and then to this narrowing this divide between policies and practice gap. So in the next slide, I would like to request Dr. Mocles from CNRS to talk about the field level challenges focusing on achieving inclusive water governance from its experience. Over to you, Dr. Mocles. Okay. Thank you, Indu. Please put my slide on. Okay. Thanks. Good morning and good afternoon. Actually, we're going to talk about the Shakira area, which is located at the southwestern part of Bangladesh. It also represents the lower Ganges Delta and the place is very close to the Sundarbansh mangrove forest, which is shared between India and Bangladesh. The historically Shakira area is, Shakira and Kulna area is impacted by high salinity, soil and water salinity because of various factors. And we see now people blame and claim climate change is the factor that actually increasing the salinity, maybe true, but a little. What we have experienced working there for maybe about 20 years, that the contextual issues, the policy related things like leasing of coastlands and government on land and wetlands canal networks, the massive stream farming and the elite dominance of state on resources, privatization of Commonwealth resources are basically bent drivers of this freshwater scarcity and high salinity, which impact the production systems. So we want to address which we need to focus more on addressing the contextual issues rather than climate. It will come automatically, I guess. The other thing is, there are, especially if we group the drivers, some are indigenous locally. The changes happened at the local level, which is the elite dominance is very important and very robust and conversion and privatization of canals. And canal is basically the only kind of land water resource that could store rainwater, which is fresh water, and people can diversify crops and increase the cropping intensity and particularly during the dry season, they can grow varieties of crops. The dry season is the best season for us to diversify crops. But because of the high salinity, they cannot grow. So the land is only used for the monsoon season. When the rainwater is there and the salinity dilutes and that people can grow almond rice or monsoon rice. So this indigenous thing is also like the conflicts between the seed farmers and rice farmers. And denial of poor people access to leased canals, about 90% canals are either leased out and controlled by the leaseholders or elite capture. So hardly any scope for the poor people and the marginalized farmers to use what I including women at your. So these are basically the key indigenous issues. And from the indigenous part, the policy, the wetland leasing policy. Since the area is fresh water discards, governments should have taken special measures to protect the canals to store rainwater so that people can diversify their food systems. And this also supports capture fishing. But, you know, things are not happening. It is given to few people and they are converting it to agriculture, making houses, settlements. So there are examples of permanent loss of canals. There is no trace in the map. So that sort of things happen. The other thing is this massive shrimp farming. It is also unplanned. And our policy, shrimp policy said that it has to be, there has to be a joining where people do shrimp farming, saltwater shrimp farming and in areas where people do rice farming. So demand from the locality, but particularly from the rice farming communities, but things are not happening because of various political and other technical issues. The coastal embankments, which gets another structures, some are functioning, not functioning and somewhat unplanned. And this also cause, you know, kind of water logging, sedimentation, flooding and production loss. The climate change, of course, it is there, particularly the prolonged drought. Now we are having drought, but in some last three years we are having early monsoon flooding, rain-based flooding. So because of the canals are converted and many canals are grabbed by the stream farmers. So drainage is a big problem. So under the climate change we are having keratic rainfalls. So sometimes people suffer from water logging, particularly during common rice farming system. So this is because of the embankments and canal not properly supporting the drainage. Other thing is the obstruction of water or withdrawal of water from the river systems upstream. That's within Bangladesh and beyond. And there is hardly any practical or pragmatic initiative to actually restore the canals, cancelling the leasing and protecting water and a kind of community-based management of canal resources for food production. It's not there. So in the next slide, I just like to, as a testimony, like to show, Indu, can you move to the next one? Yeah. So the left couple of photos you can see, this is the first part of the Kuntuli canal coming out of the Malanchuri but that river actually pipe in between the settlements and the Sundarbans. And the households living in the banks of the canal, they are slowly kind of grabbing the canals by making ponds. And in front of everyone, nobody is protecting this. So this is the way that people actually grab government-owned land. And I guess we guess this point to the deputy commissioner, but nobody is listening to this. And I guess in next 20 years, this very good canal would turn into a small train or narrow train. And then it would be a kind of irreversible loss to state-owned resources or common food resources. The right one is a canal. This part of the canal is, it is a branch of the Kuntuli canal. It is leased out many years back. So now there is hardly any trace. So it is completely converted to, largely converted to cropland. So people here suffer from water shortage in the dry season. So they can only grow ponds and rice when there is rainwater and most of the time. So, yeah, now move on to the third one, that slide. Yeah, another sum of the photos of another branch of Kuntuli canal, which is we call Kuntuli canal, where Deepa Mo and I visited last December. Yeah. Yeah, actually, it's a large canal and a good opportunity to store huge volume of water for the farming and other purposes, fishing and farming, livestock, duck-rearing, this and that. But these are leased. So in this area, the leaseholders, they don't allow people to use fetched water and use for other purposes. So they strongly maintain this. Oh, sorry. Just to remind, we have three more minutes. So just to kind of request. Alright, I'm just finishing that. Yeah, so we have the testimonies that how the water systems available based on canals are actually grabbed by the people due to policy and political influences. And how the local people, the mass people are excluded from these resources. The next one. This is the last one. Good news. Yeah, so there are several policies aligned to these water systems. There may be some more, but these policies basically are interconnected interlinked. But in reality, on the ground, they are separated, isolated and applied in siloed, siloed uproar. So we really want a kind of coherent policy for addressing the water, biodiversity or agri-diversity, the land productivity, this and that, including the fishing and fisheries and aquaculture. But things are not happening in that way. It's a big problem for us. And the problems and issues of the local level is not transmitted to the central level, to the policy stakeholders, to the managers at the central level. So we experience that and we suggest that we need to work at both ends. At the local level, communities should be organized because they are actually not well-organized, not well aware. They are impacted, affected, but cannot take decisions what to do. So work with them, build their capacity and kind of making the movements so that they can influence local authorities and actors. And also we need to work at the policy level to influence them through evidence what is happening and what could be possible to better manage the water systems for food production. So this is what we suggest through workshops and dialogues and policy briefings and sharing and making alleys. It is not that someone only see an arrest or only water development board or fisheries are in the culture alone. We need a collective approach. So I want to end here. Thank you very much. Thank you so much, Dr. Moklis. And now like I would like to focus on three key challenges that we found from our recent literature review on water governance issues. The first one on the power and hierarchy, how it saves the historical water management intervention. As Dr. Moklis just pointed out, it is not only the climate in a region that affects water governance and inclusion. So we looked historically into key intervention and we would like to focus on two key intervention that Bangladesh had focused on. The first one is the folders like in 1960s, there were like 139 folders were constructed to address this flooding risk and enhance agricultural production. The second key intervention was transition towards extensive stream farming that expanded by over like, you know, the stream farming area was expanded by over 400%. And then initially, like there was a lot of, you know, there have been positive effects that for example, the polders they contributed to flood prevention control of salinity intrusion. And it did actually bring 1.2 million hectares of land on the agriculture production. And the stream farming because it contributed a lot to economic, you know, like the boosting the economy and even in the data from 2012 to 2013 so that it was the second largest export industry after government. So there have been the positive effect. However, there have been some serious ecological challenges. For example, in terms of polders over 600 kilometers of the major waterways were obstructed, there have been sedimentation and some rivers also died. Stream farming, there was the clearance of a lot of land of the mangroves and other, you know, like some of the studies indicate up to 5 fold increase in soil and water salinity. However, like what we focus here is there have been more far reaching social impacts in different population groups. For example, if we look at the small holder farmers, they had to lose a lot of land. This particular case we found from Adnan is that in by Gaza is one of the sub district in Kula district where 84% of the residents they had to lose their land because of proliferation of a commercial stream farming. The fishers livelihood was also affected to hear fishers means we want to focus on the capture fisheries. There have been the substantial decline in the fish catch because of this investment. And for example, as you can see there, like one of the studies from one specific location, like we cited that example that 95% of fishing areas would cease for stream farming, leaving only 5% of these fishers to use those resources. There have been implications for waste laborers like as there are a lot of study that say that stream farming is less labor intensive than rice farming. It's like this is the particular study from Shamim that highlights that cultivating rice on 40 acres of land. Employee safety workers where it's only five from there and then there have been the worst consequences reported in terms of displacement and migration because of unplanned and unregulated stream farming. For example, in South Kira, as the examples and so the second issue is so what was there behind it. So we really highlighted the local power dynamics and water governance to see at the two issues, the power dynamics. We mean to say like, you know, how this interaction between individuals because of the power that affects the distribution and control of these resources. So three key power dynamics were highlighted from the literature that one is based on the resource ownership. For example, right to water is considered as right to land like the land ownership and also similar for like these large land owners dominate a lot of other resources. The second we found was in terms of gender in terms of men versus women's role and then how we are excluded from water management. The third is those who are close to politically elected representatives they could use more this water resources. So these are the power dynamics that affect this inclusive governance. However, looking at the governance structure like we focus on two different aspects, one from the water aspect that has really good policies in 1990s on inclusive, you know, participatory water management that focus on these different aspects for multiple livelihoods, not only producer, but also landowners, fissures and others. However, these different projects, there have been very much limited community participation, and there is no mechanisms to monitor where they participate and what is, you know, like how to what extent. And in terms of multi sector policies as Mocles, Dr Mocles was referring water sector is not only about water, but also it lets all other sectors and multi sectoral interest. However, on the ground that has been different. I just want to add here that you have another two minutes so the last speaker gets adequate time. Thank you. Yeah, thank you so much. Okay, so these two issues and the final one we want to highlight here is that because there are some institutional and culture and practices that save on equal power dynamics. We give the examples from women's exclusion, elite capture, a lot of aspects on the elite capture has been already presented by Dr Mocles. So what we want to highlight here is there have been some kind of institutional barriers, for example, this significant gender waste disparities in terms of women as they just have that of men and also the elite capture. There are the barriers that, you know, like not only in water, but also land and the canal and other grabbing. So that leads to the exclusion of this marginalized and other populations. So based on these three issues and this context, we are working with the trust the project on the transboundary river is the reverse of South Asia project with experiments. We are also working with the CNAres to get insights into the integrating of, you know, like the how the gender equality and social inclusion is integrated and what we can do to empower women and marginalized populations to increase their access to and participation in water resources. As you can see, we focus on three different research questions, first looking into different sectoral and institutional dynamics. And then the second really looking into their access to common pool water resources for multiple livelihoods. And then the third is looking into the power dynamics and how they participate in decision making and what can we do about this going forward. So this is the slide where we want to highlight like how this evidence will contribute to the trust that projects impact. So we as you can see there we focus on a lot of evidence, the literature reviews case studies and then we highlight like three key entry points where we can make a change first really looking into the Nordic way to specific intervention of the project and then the national level advocacy of district and district level advocacy and the campaigns. So that eventually in the outcome. Indu I think we need to hand over to Moina, please. Because she can take off from here. Yeah, so yeah, so we want to raise to two different outcomes highlighted before like one is at the marginalized population level to work on advocacy empowering and the capacity and second is the institutional level that they really understand these kind of issues. So I would like to request Moina from Oxfam to talk more about the approach and how we will be working at the way that the policy and practice aspects over to you Moina. Thank you Indu and thank you. So since 2017 Oxfam and his partners have been working for inclusive water governance to Joseph water governance program. If you see in the next slides then. So I would like to highlight that Rosa have been has been working to address these under the underlying causes of property and marginalization. Of the people living in the transponder legal basis of GBM and it is implementing in Nepal, India and Bangladesh. So it aims to ensure the river and communities have held their rights, build their resilience and participate in water resource management and in South Asia, we acknowledge that water governance and water is a management. are linked to rather challenging social, political, economic, and epistetic found strength. And river is a common for research. So we engage governments, civil society, NGOs, private sector, researchers, academics, regional institutes, youths, and the indigenous groups also. Here, I try to put a simplified version of how we engage with these different type of stakeholder in our water advocacy process. So the process is actually way more interlinked than it is shown here. And Rosa also emphasized on the regional cooperation which I did not put here. For example, if you take the issue of sun mining, which is a pressing but sensitive issue, we have found from the community which take place near and in the river, eventually accelerate the river erosion and causing loss of public assets and loss of biodiversity. So having heavy political influence and high demand of the sand, it cannot be stopped. So we activate our approach in this particular issue. If we see in the next slide, so Nodiboy took our river meeting that is in a specific intervention of Rosa project. And it's a process through which civil society, organizations, and local vulnerable community collectively work to identify water governance challenges and opportunities at the grassroots level. So through the Nodiboy took, we build mutual trust and understanding. We build awareness. We do the collective actions and capacity building of the community and the vice versa also for us. And ultimately making the community resilient. So through this process, the community capacity to engage with and influence daily barriers is strengthened to secure their water resource rights. And throughout those Nodiboy took, we already have seen the changes within the work women leadership and they have resolved illegal sand mining periodically and they made accountable the local governments and they promote the indigenous knowledge in river management. So in the next slide, we'll see the process of Nodiboy took how it actually goes to the water influencing. So the Nodiboy follows a bottom up approach starting with monthly meetings at the village level to listen to the stories of the communities living around the river area. These events are organized by partners. CNRS has been a partner from the very beginning of Strosa in Meghna basin here. And the partners use the reflections from the Nodiboy to forge partnership with other relevant CSOs. And then they decide whether the issue requires abstention of evidence before moving forward while also conducting a power analysis of the stakeholders involved. Based on that result, the most pressing issues that is common in multiple geographic location and which is actually possible for Trosa to tap within. Then we select the issues for the advocacy and accordingly CSO make an initial influencing plan for the partnership with the community. And with time this is escalated to national and basin level and several Nodiboy talks usually happen in between for coordinated planning and reporting back to the communities on progress of influencing. So basically what I do that we actually build capacity of the community to get involved in the water governance and we do evidence-based advocacy and we try to try community that so that they are able to solve their own problems throughout the process. So this is from my part, so thank you. Okay, thanks very much Moina and Indu and Moklesh. So as I think the key message was that policies on their own are not delivering very well and what is very much required is intervening at both ends to really critically examine why policies are not working and the sectoral lack of coordination between very different and isolated sectoral policies but also equally important building the agency and capability of marginalized users to be able to demand and be engaged in effectively in the governance of water. So, and we hope that through the research and through engagement with Rosa to AMD can contribute to this process. I would now maybe like to open the floor for questions, maybe we can take a couple of questions and then pass it on to the speakers. Sorry, I apologize for the internet issues, sorry everyone. Sure, I see your hand up Manu Ranjan, you have a question. Can I also request that the questions are short and the answers also by the speakers are short so we can have more active flowing conversation. Okay, thank you Deepak, I'm not a course in Dasha's position that I have been listening to this grabbing land, grabbing canal, grabbing problems by the elixir for a long time. So it is difficult to solve. So in what is on AMD, we have developed Dyson dropping technology techniques without bothering the canals or other things but the canals are tilted up and you cannot conserve enough water to irrigate entire area. Maybe five to 10% of the area and there will be a great conflict who will take water. So better we have developed the residual soil or fertilizer and infillation techniques for high value crops in the Dyson zone, in what part of the zone. That could help in this auto governance issues, I believe. Thanks very much Manu Ranjan. So how technology can be a disruptor or addressing these challenges when they are very complex and critical? But I can pass this over to Moina and Muklesh for their comments in a bit. Maybe let's take two other questions. Can I respond to this alternative way of handling the freshwater issue? Muklesh, can you wait just one minute and then we'll take one more question and then you can respond, yeah. No, Charlotte, please. Yes, well, thank you all for those very interesting presentation. I had work on this issue with Manu Ranjan, by the way, some 10 years back. And that's kind of, yes, striking to see that some of the issues that we had noticed and analyzed some 10 years ago are still there. So one specific question, I think we had came with the idea of the role that the Union Parishat could play in between the community level water management and issues they are facing and the policy level action with this issue that well, maybe the policies are there but on the ground we don't see them being necessarily applied. So we were thinking about empowering the Union Parishat, the local government institution to help with that. So I'm just curious to know if there is any step which has been taken in that direction and what is the role that the currency of the Union Parishat in terms of the water governance? Thanks a lot, Mayor Charlotte. I will hand over both the questions, first to Moinesh and then to Moina. All right, thank you. The first question is fine. I mean, we appreciate I think the technology that without water we can grow crops. But I think the way we see is a landscape approach. Not that only the production of crops using the water, but water is needed for the capture fisheries, the area, the capture fisheries, the wild species of freshwater is seriously impacted. So we have the evidence that if we excavate a canal or rehabilitate a canal, that this freshwater species, many Swiss that are small and people eat the whole fish and very nutritious, that they recolonize, they come back. And I have the photo of the testimony that the women, they go to the canal before making their lunch and spend an hour and get say half a kilogram of fish. And this is for the lunch and dinner of the family and the free fish. So what we want is a healthy production system at the landscape scale where we need, we have the land and water and other sort of resources that all collectively actually essential for a healthy production system. The other thing is, I appreciate that. I think it's not alternative rather in combination we can use that. The other aspect of this union, Parishad, basically canal restoration and creation of freshwater provision, it needs money. But the budget they have is not adequate to address all this. I think the allocation from the government is less. That's why in our previous work in policy briefing notes when we developed that we recommended for financing. Financing these food system initiatives in the impacted area like lower Kansas Delta. And Union Parishad as the good points you raised on different projects, we excavated several canals and the support of the Union Parishad particularly in conflict resolution was instrumental. And it was good. And in some of the areas the Union Parishad sharemen are also against canal restoration because they are also party to canal leasing. So it's really very tricky and we need to handle this thing very carefully because there are sensitivities in it. However, I think that those two are great answers. Did you want to add more? No, it's fine. I mean, Union Parishad engagement is fine, but Union Parishad cannot handle the leasing thing. Most of the canals are leased. If you want to cancel the lease, we need to address the local, I mean the Upojala sub-district administration, district administration and also the court and ministry of land. So things are complicated, not that easy, but doable. Yeah, so that's it from my side. Great, so I think you really answered the question well that the political implications are far more complex than just handing it over to a local government. And also I think the other question that in the interest of multiple livelihoods and also the biodiversity, there is a need to let these rivers flow through these canals. Moina, did you want to add anything to the first two questions? Then I would like to hand over to Maria. Oh, so actually Dr. Mucles has said it all, just one experience from Prusa. So the involvement of Union Parishad depends on the obviously on the political influence and also what sort of initiative community is taking or community is leading on that topic. Like if it is not that much of sensitive, then Union Parishad might get involved. But if it is a sensitive issue, then it will be a bit much crucial. Okay, thanks a lot. Maria, you have a question. I think you might mean me, Mariana. Mariana? Yeah, okay, thanks. Moisa and Moina both talked about evidence, that evidence is relevant of what works better to for informed advocacy. So my question is, what do you consider evidence and how do you generate evidence? And I have a second question for Indu. As we heard that electric capture is an important area and I heard that women's exclusion too and you work on it and you empower it, but how do you work on electric capture so that this is less a barrier? So these are my two questions for all three speakers. Great, thanks a lot. So maybe first Indu, you can respond to the question and then over again to Mokleisha and Moina for the first question. Yeah, thank you so much, Mariana, for the question. I think the first question was about what do you consider an evidence, right? Like it's, I think in this particular case study what we are trying to do with the true size that in, for example, particular Nordic-Voiterx meetings where there will be the participants from the community label women and marginalized. So we want to actually create evidence with them like we are conducting detailed, like the data collection. So working with these people to see what are the issues that are on the ground in terms of water governance, not only in terms of the food production, for example, how it affects for different livelihoods and what does that mean, or what does that access to water mean for different people who are dependent on these common pool water resources. So we would like to generate the evidence together with these people that we are trying to do. And in terms of elite capture, like it's like women's exclusion, we found that there have been issues of elite capture and women exclusion. So I think I would actually pass this question over to Mocles, Dr. Mocles from CNRS, because they have been working, you know, like for a long, for on these issues on, you know, like how they would, they see this and what would be the strategy to work with the elite capture on the ground. Maybe over to you, Dr. Mocles. Okay, thank you. And the elite. Yeah, yeah, okay. So the evidence generation basically in part of the Kultuli canal when we did this rehabilitation four years back and what we did, we did a kind of GIS based land use survey mapping and then we saw that, you know, the over the years, the cropping diversity and the areas changes because of this water availability. And we also engage the agriculture extension department to support the communities on the technical aspects, training and we also engage the agriculture extension department to do crop cutting, which is just to kind of what sort of production that we got per unit area in our new varieties or stress tolerance varieties that we collected from PDE and also PINA Bangladesh nuclear in the state of nuclear agriculture at Rice Research Institute. So these are the evidences that also we did the fish catch monitoring in one part of the canal to see what sort of species are there. But that project was not a research project like CGIR system that was kind of climate justice project. So that's what that was started. And there are evidences that, you know, the water availability. Say before we rehabilitated the canal, it was seasonal water body. And that's why it was not leased because it is tried in the dry season. So Leesolder was not interested to take it for fish culture. So when we excavate it, then it come perennial and can provide water. Dr. Borodanjan is right that, you know, we need to excavate the whole canal network that takes time and money. But well, I mean, a small school thing for evident generation is quite good. And our job is not to do everything, but to show government that what is possible and how this food production system can be improved and enhanced in this sort of very climate or hazardous place, what is possible that the government should take the proactive measures to handle this sort of crisis. Okay, thank you a lot. The elite capture is there. And then to evict the elite people from there or those people who grabbed or had kind of illegal control, we actually engage, we made allies, make friends. Like there are local journalists, we engage them in the process. There is a local youth groups, we engage them in the process. There is one NGO platform on environmental issues, we engage them. And it's kind of collective force, as I said earlier. I mean, if we have, and also the, what Deepa is saying, the agency, what we have seen, the women, I mean, Deepak, I think you could remember Pushpore Animondo was a young housewife where we were in their house. She's so courageous. She alone with some of her peers evicted, removed the lease holder from the canal. So the house is there, but he left the place. The Pushpore said that if we stay here, we will kill him. With so, that person left to adjacent villages, never coming to that point. But he put some, isn't that well. I mean, they have the, the question is, they understand problem, but unless the external facilitator facilitate and help them use their agency to shape up their work, it is difficult for them alone to do. Because there are both cases. Yeah, yeah. Thanks. I think you've made the point really well that water governance is a very political issue, especially where it's so contested and where freshwater resources are so scarce. Moina and Indu, you have your hand up. And I, if this is in relation to the questions, then I would ask you to please take no more than one minute each to add to this because Manu Ranjan has his hand up and I would like to pass on to him then for maybe his third question. Okay, so Moina, Indu, one minute each and then one around. Yeah, I just want to add in response to the questions of evidence that we start from our learning things back in our mind and then document the impacts in the ground from the people who are actually suffering. And when needed, we intervene with the citizen science approach and create a database and that is added to the relevant expertise, expert inputs, and we, Trusa has actually at least two examples where community initiatives and indigenous knowledge extracts experts from the Bangladesh University of Engineering and Technology and development of fisheries who actually later take the information and do the research and eventually find out that what communities are saying, it was true. Yeah, that's all from mine. It's a lot, Moina, Indu, one minute please. Sorry, I'll be brief here. So I think it resonates with what Moina just mentioned. Like the approach we see here is, we'll be working with both CNRS and Oxfam. So documenting this and in terms of elite capture, like once we could create, like develop the knowledge using the Trusa's evidence, we want to focus on two different aspects. So one is making these policy makers institutions, like the kind of realization on that, there is the need to change this policy practice. And also working on the ground, like how we can increase the agency and voice of these different populations, like the women, smallholders, fishers, and some other marginalized populations. So once we have the evidence, we'll be working with the Trusa using their approach, as Moina just said, and then integrating with the advocacy campaigning and then at two different levels. One is the institutional level and also at the grassroots, the non-deboiter, really to focusing on increasing this agency and capacity of these marginalized populations. Yeah, maybe Moina wants to add more, but I just wanted to highlight that with respect. No, I think we should not add more. I think we should pass it on to Manu Ranjan for the last final question. Yeah, thank you. I'm going to go to Deepak. You know, this color-grabbing, early capture, this will be there in Bangladesh because this is a democratic country. Either you bring the Union, Prishad and Uttar Pradesh, whose interest is there. So the two issue, issue is the salary versus non-salary. Salary is a resource for the aquaculture. So there will be, there is, and it's a curse for the aquaculture. So this conflict is there, aquaculture versus aquaculture. And aquaculture will win because they are the influential people. And that is happening in the Shabtik idea. But you will come to my school idea, I'll tell it is less where shrimp farming and aquaculture is less profitable. The clumping are there. That's why Dr. Mokil has mentioned joining. We are also listening, joining for a long time. But again, I'm saying that it is a democratic country. Nobody will believe that joining or obey that. But we are influenced, they will do their own way. So my question is that, our suggestion is that, how about the resources are available for the aquaculture, we have to indirectly use that talk. And if it show the benefit to the community, then there will be some solution. Otherwise, I believe we will have to listen for a long time this lobbying and ellipsoid like of things. Thank you very much. Moklej, do you want to add anything? Very quickly for one minute, please. Okay, Moklej doesn't seem to be there. So Moina, do you want to add anything to the recent comment by Manu Ranjan? No, I think it's fine. I think, I don't want to go into debate about the democracy and the autocracy. But I think we need some sort of systematic approach that the enabling landscape environment and in Shakira as well, there are areas where stream culture is difficult because the watering, the stream plant or stream pond from river is not possible or very costly. So there are places where agriculture is feasible, low cost and profitable. So we actually need to think about the local differentiations or variability of the land escape and water escape and salinity escape. So yeah, I mean, so that's what I want to say, but yeah. Thanks a lot, Moklej. Maybe I can just add very quickly to that and then hand over to Ole for closing this session on time. So I do agree, Manu Ranjan, that there are different values and of different types of approaches, but I think there's enough documentation on Bangladesh that the expansion of saline water, shrimp cultivation has had very challenging prospects and in fact, now the economic gains from shrimp cultivation in the Southern coastal deltas is no longer viable and there is a collapse of what used to be earlier a very thriving economic driver and in the recent documentation on Bangladesh, there's also references to looking into new waterscapes and landscapes to carry on shrimp cultivation, whether that is a wise decision given the fact that it had so many outcomes in the Southern coastal deltas is another issue. But I think it also signals, I think, an issue for policies to really take on a much more integrated perspective where the consideration of ecological dimensions longer term economic gains and also equity are built into what is promoted as livelihood opportunities in the food systems context more broadly beyond agriculture. So over to you, Oleh. I think thanks to all the speakers and all the questions that was really interesting. Yeah, thank you very much also from my side to all the speakers and thanks for a very active discussion. As always, the recording will be posted on the NFP Connect platform under nfpconnects.com and also we can continue the discussion on that platform. So that will happen within the next few days. I would like now to give the last word to Mariana to tell us what we can expect during the next Delta Talks in end of April. Please. That's the exact plans for next time. So that is to be seen and it will be a nice surprise for all of us. To hear, I hope soon, who will be the next speakers or speaker defending. And I also would like to thank the speakers and the discussion that I really liked and also Deepa's methodology for a more integrated perspective. And so that is, I think what we try since the Delta Talks also, so that we expose ourselves to different disciplinary, interdisciplinary, transdisciplinary approaches people are working on. And then we discuss it together. People who are working in this field or people who are not working in this field. So I think this broadens our views as researchers, as we also need to take a more integrated perspective. Thanks a lot. Thank you everybody and see you next time. Bye-bye. Thank you, bye-bye. Thank you everyone. Bye-bye. Thank you, bye-bye. Thank you. Thanks everyone. Just putting the camera to say hello to all friends. Have a good day. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.