 Hello and welcome and thank you for joining us for today's book chat. My name is Mary Alice McCarthy and I direct the Center on Education and Labor at New America. For those of you not familiar with New America, we are a public policy think and do tank, and we are dedicated to renewing the promise of America by continuing the quest to realize our nation's highest ideals. At the Center on Education and Labor part of what part of our work is to build public awareness of the critical role that worker organizations, particularly labor unions can play in building stronger and more resilient communities. And today we are going to hear about a very compelling example of just that, which is documented in this delightful and engaging book, One Day Stronger, how one union local saved a mill and changed an industry and what it means for American manufacturing. So for the next hour, we're going to hear the story of the Appleton coated paper mill located in the Fox River Valley of northeastern Wisconsin in the village of combined locks, which found itself on the verge of closure in 2017 with escape the fate so common to manufacturing plants across the Midwest over the last several decades, guiding us through this conversation will be will be Dr. Ann Marie Slaughter, the CEO of New America, and a prolific author herself who has published books on a wide range of topics from foreign policy to network theory to the challenges facing working women. Her most recent book published just last month is titled Renewal from crisis to transformation in our lives work in politics, which is a title that frankly could also be used to describe the events that take place in one day stronger so I think Ann Marie and the authors book Tom Nelson have a lot in common and a lot to talk about. And Marie will be talking with Tom Nelson, the author of One Day Stronger, who is also the county executive of out again out again the county Wisconsin and a candidate for United States Senate and the 2022 Democratic primary. We'll be talking with two other people with deep experience with the Appleton coated paper mill including Doug Osterberg, the former CEO, and a key player and keeping the plant alive, and Kevin Eldrath, a member of the United Steel Workers Local 2469 and a worker at the still operating Appleton coated paper mill, although he'll let us know that it has a new name now, but again, he's still operating paper mill. I'm here from you who are watching and listening today through some question and answers toward the end of the hour. So please sit back and enjoy. And with that, I'm going to turn the mic over to Ann Marie. Marie Alice, thank you. And to everyone listening I encourage you to check out the Center for Education and Labor's website at New America, it is. One of the few places that puts together education and labor, and frankly, it's, it's good to have labor back in the headlines, as far as I'm concerned. So Tom, you and I are going to talk for a while and then I will bring in our fellow participants, but I have to start by sitting by just noting just how unusual the story is. You know, I've read, I've read a lot of books on, you know, how manufacturing plants have closed down from, you know, how the garden club saved Youngstown, which is as one of about how Youngstown survived but but only after the plants shut down. And Macy wrote about the collapse of the furniture industry in North Carolina, and in small towns in North Carolina and in Virginia, and Andy Goldstein wrote about the decline of the auto industry, and lots of lots of people really focused on the impact that it had on on Jamesville, Wisconsin, which is only as far as I know about 100 miles south of the town where your story takes place. There are lots of other books on the same theme, but one day stronger has a very different account, and the plant doesn't close and the jobs don't vanish I don't think I'm giving away anything. And so instead of this kind of rust belt narrative of shuttered factories and abandoned homes and a whole population that feels left behind instead the plants still operating and really you had an impact on the industry as a whole so with that sort of framing I want to just start by asking you. So, why did you write the book. And what do you hope to accomplish by telling the story. Well, thank you Dean slaughter, if I may have been a former student, and also to New America for hosting this. I think it's a very important story, and that's the reason why I wrote it. And for the reasons, you just gave Dean slaughter about how do you mind if I call you Dean slaughter. The reason why I wrote that is for the reasons that were just mentioned that this is the antithesis of what we have been experienced what America has been experienced across the country and specifically in the upper Midwest. And so here was an example of how we turned around that narrative. And the way we did it is a lot different than mean, there have been more cases more instances where this has happened. But the way that we fought this the way that we push back how there were a series of these actions that we included in solvency law so there were some attorneys involved there was a course the courtroom drama. There was the very smart management and labor team management from from from Doug Osterberg who was the CEO at the time would been the industry for 35 years, putting together a business model and then labor, partnering with them to to to realize this. And that was the big reason why I wrote it but then there's a couple of these underlying kind of sub plots, and one of the biggest ones was the Fox con controversy. And I'm sure that there's probably quite a few people listening watching right now that we're aware of this for bill at the time of $4 billion public taxpayer outlay to Fox con corporation from from from a Taiwan that made electronics a deal that was done with for Governor Scott Walker, and this happened the same time and so the comparison contrast with how we did this pretty much on our own, we got no support from the state. Fox com is getting all the attention, all the resources, all the money, and not just Apple to encoded but at that same time within about a four month window. We had three other mills that were affected out beyond US paper converters, and the Kimberly Clark facility in Winnebago County, which has its own chapter two. So all these things came together but this is a really unique story, no one's really telling it at least not telling it in the way that I think will be accurate. And he kind of felt the wayside, and it's something that I thought about a lot I committed about two years of my life doing interviews about 70 interviews doing the research on labor history paper industry. How this was unique and we'll get to this, how the lessons learned here we can, you know, we can apply not just in the paper industry, but across manufacturing. And then I think the post script to all of that is now more than ever. We need to have a strong manufacturing base because by outsourcing everything around, I mean around the world. We don't have control of our supply chain anymore, and that is a big driver of inflation on the state of the economy, etc, etc. So we are going to get to those bigger lessons and I'll just say to those everyone in the audience that Tom calls me Dean Slaughter because I was the Dean of the School of Public and International Affairs. For instance, when he was there in case you're wondering where the title came from. So, before we get to the larger story you were county executive right and so if I'm thinking about this story I might, I might expect that, you know, the Union took the lead or indeed that there was some collaboration between management and Labor to save the plant which although sadly that's not a story we hear enough of in the United States, but I don't think I would have expected a county executive. So, walk me through your role. The way that this worked is I sat down with a friend of mine, who was who was an insolvency lawyer one of the top bankruptcy lawyers in the state we just happened to have lunch the week before the receivership and he made the point saying look, you're the county executive, you have standing to object to the sale, which is what is allowed in Wisconsin receivership law which is unique. And so that kind of got the ball rolling. I talked to Doug and his team. I talked to John Geenan, who was from Cacona next to where I grew up in Little Shoe in I'm gaming county. By the time was the International Vice President for pulp and paper so he was basically the leader of the paperwork or union for North America. So a lot of it all came together talked a lot about this. I was really excited about it and so I was kind of pushing and pushing. Doug had this great business model, Kevin and the steel workers they wanted to fight back they were not going to give up on that. And then so the three of us kind of got together so you have local government you've management and you have labor, and it had to happen pretty quickly it happened I think within a few days maybe less than a week. And so they just just take us through a little bit the kind of connection with so the bankruptcy law connection is that you have standing to object or was that part of the solution as well. That's kind of what started things. So what I did is the sale. So when the receivership went to an auction, it was auctioned off to a scrap dealer in California who's going to scrap it. Okay. And the sale came before out of any county before one of our circuit court judges, and usually these it's kind of pro forma, it takes 1520 minutes, but you know we packed that place. And so I objected to the sale, the steel workers, it was their legal argument that really drove the train we can talk about that later. And then there were a couple of vendors who were owed a lot of money I mean there was me ducking your number I mean there was millions, millions in the in the council seal people who weren't getting money and so few of those folks objected to. So that is what started that's the quote unquote courtroom drama that really initiated this, that gave a standing me being county executive was 600 jobs at stake steel workers because a lot of their members were going to lose their jobs and lose a lot of back pay and the auction benefits so forth and of course Doug was the leader of this milk would put 35 years 35 years of heartbeats into this he was going to fight back to do that as well. So that was the link that's what God is going. If we did not have this special kind of provision in Wisconsin solvency law. You know would not have happened the way it did. So that to me is so interesting in the sense of recognizing that the county, the community has standing in the legal sense, you know, to object that this isn't just a private transaction, and that there's still value in the going concern. The minute it turns into scrap. I mean, there'll be value in the scrap but it's far less than the value of what is still there but but needs to be reorganized or need needs some kind of plan to save it, and the county can see that and the folk and the community can see that and also the workers and management but the minute you sell it, you know to somebody outside the state they can all they can see is what it can be reduced to it's a really interesting example of sort of how, when we talk about, you know, stakeholder capitalism or multi say you know all the different stakeholders in a business who normally don't get get recognized. So we'll talk a little bit about some of those lessons we're going to we're going to talk more about what actually happened when we bring in Doug and Kevin but talk a little bit about what what you see the lessons are and specifically what needs to change so that this is not just a story we hear about Appleton coded. Well what really drove this is PNC bank, which held the note. It wasn't technically this wasn't the case, but they effectively called note that put Appleton coded in a position where the only choice they had was to go into receivership. So talking about public policy and what we can change in a legal sense. We need to adapt insolvency law in general whether it's bankruptcy or receivership to mirror that of the European model where it takes community effects right now the only thing that matters is that the bank gets paid, because it's full value there at the front of the line, they get the money, maybe the workers get something maybe local business usually that's not the case. So we need to have a fundamental change in bankruptcy and insolvency law in general, that takes into community effects. What is this being for the local economy. We need to at least make the workers whole. If they lose their jobs, is their training is their similar work. How is that going to contribute education, what type of facilities what type of institutions do we have. I mean the Center for Education Labor which is helping sponsored this. That's what it is, and I think this is a good example that falls into their mission statement. It's not just labor, what's education, how you train the workforce, where it's before, hopefully, or on the back end, God forbid something like this happens. So I think the big lesson to take from this from a public policy standpoint is that we have to change American bankruptcy and insolvency law in general. And this is also, I mean, this is also a reason why Senator Warren, basically went from a Republican by her admission to to a Democrat because she saw how punitive bankruptcy law is and I've been looking exactly playing for policies right now or but I think what would be right at the alley is the change that and you mentioned the US Senate, having this experience this is something that I definitely would definitely get involved, especially at a national level. So bankruptcy law, anything else that needs to change in terms of public policy. I think that really is the big one, I would say on the public policy and that was the main issue. But one of the things we struggled with before we have the idea of objecting to the sale was the culture, and how a lot of people in CUNY were resigned to this fate that we're just losing paper most even here in the paper Valley. A lot of people said that's a dinosaur, we need to do something completely different this another example, we can't put people in manufacturing, and so forth. And so on top of that, plus the fact that there are all these setbacks that labor dealt with after act 10 which effectively eliminated public sector unions, implementation so called right to work rollback of prevailing wage unions had were just have this huge black guy they were taking left and right. And so we felt beat down they don't want to have one more loss the community so that labor losses, losing other paper plants. They don't want to buck people up, okay, we can do this, let's get going. So how we not get that point the first place is we need to make public investments. What it's basic science research with nanotechnology, which Dom Tarr another paper company has been experimenting in University of Maine is funding some of that. We don't have the type of research and development into this and industry and let's be honest. We have a lot of, you know, public finance investment in manufacturing in general. So another aspect of public policy, we're one of the only countries that does not have a national industrial strategy, which at the time West Germany, Japan, Korea had in the late 1970s and 1980s. We, you know, they packaged together trade policy, research and development identifying national security commodities that they were going to support we didn't do that. So we suffered manufacturing really got hit hard in the 1980s, the 1990s here in the papers we kind of peaked around 2000 and we've been taking a chin since. So you lose jobs in the upper Midwest you lose jobs whether it's in Jamesville with the auto plant down there, whether it was the glass factory anchor glass the losses that they suffered, but now we all are. Because I think it is arguably one of the main drivers of inflation and the woes that we are dealing with as a country this this this are disrupted supply chain. So, and it's interesting because really President Biden's kind of investment bill research and investment bill this summer is a big step toward an industrial policy it's not all the way there but it is saying look we are not going to be able to meet with other nations, unless we also have a strategy and really have that investment, and even, you know, industry protection on on in very specific cases to help help grow things. But Doug I want to bring you in at this point, and I want to say what the two of you still to tell, tell a little more of the story and then I will turn to Kevin as well. But so Doug so we first of all, just talk about how you felt during this process and when Tom came when you when you sort of realize there was another way to go because management doesn't always respond the way you respond it. Well, I think we, we felt like we had that strategy in place before the receivership started. When I took over in 2013. We were really struggling the the code of free sheet industry was struggling. Competitive bills had already closed, in fact, one of them adjacent to us in Kimberly just mile or two away. And we all kind of knew that we had to do something different I spent. I don't know 15 or 20 years and various technical and directing research and development and field tech service. I had a lot of connection with customers and you know, was in a position where I had a lot of insight into what opportunities might exist. We tried and tried to make various kinds of specialty products that would take us away from the bread and butter commodity stuff that was in decline and always on the edge of profitability at best. So, when, when things really got tough and pulp prices were climbing we were purchasing all of our pulp competitors weren't so that was a kind of an Achilles heel that we had to deal with. We looked at bringing in some pulping equipment, doing our own pulping with with waste paper and making recycled fiber, making grades with that. And as we looked further and further into it it became very apparent that the opportunity was in packaging grades. The, the, the home purchase, you know, effects from Amazon and others were really just getting, you know, some substance at that point, and it was, it was clear that that was going to take off. And it has, and it continues to. And fortunately we had paper machines that were very capable making some of these grades. They should. And more specifically the traditional products so Appleton coded I'm not sure everybody knows what code it refers to the traditional product products were what and then you went to packaging grade meaning basically boxes is that right. That's right. Our traditional grades were what you would see in sales brochures and promotional materials. Back in the day when there were annual reports that paper. A lot of it heavily coated with very rich printed images on them. So a lot of really good equipment and up to date. And as that market declined we started making some more traditional uncoated products. Office papers, you know, the kind of stuff you put through your copy machine, you can find anything more commodity and more competitive. So just trying to fill machines. But you know when when we had all the machines running, we were profitable. I took over we were losing eight figures. If you can believe that we got our head above water the next year we we actually made pretty good money in 2016. And then pulp markets tightened up and we were really pinched in 2017. And then we had a couple of unusual clauses in our, our deal with PNC bank. And that basically, because of the cyclicality of the business put us in a position where they could call it. And as Tom said they can technically force us to file bankruptcy but when they take all your cash away and you can't pay your people can't pay your vendors can pay the power bill you really don't have much choice. There's a couple of other issues that encouraged us to go in that direction, basically to free up a power plant that we owned, but couldn't use to produce our own power with Tom elaborated on that in the book a little bit. You know the decision to do it I think was was the right decision. We spent quite a bit of time even before the receivership, trying to line up potential owners. We didn't get at them to the finish line but expected that they would come to an auction and do so. And they didn't. So, here we are. A day after the two after the, the auction, and Tom's working his angles and I'm working mine and, you know, at some point in there we we all came together and decided we've got to make this happen. We had a model of profitability in your mind you had made good money you had a you had a view of how the plant could make good money is that right well and yes and things as they tightened up in 2017 mid year by mid year. We were struggling to keep the machines all running. The, the, there just was not business in the traditional grades to keep the machines full. It's such a tight and heavily capitalized business that if you slip just a few percent. Things go south really fast. So we had already begun running trials, really over a couple year period, but quite intensely those last couple of months to make some of these packaging grades. And basically starting with corrugating medium and eventually going to liner board. We had orders in hand that would have filled the machines. And we just were not allowed to move ahead with it. So at what point did you think it's time to reach out to the Union, because I have to say this to me is is part of this story is a public policy story and part of the story is how communities pull together and part of the story is how CEOs have to think, and this is not what I what I think many, many CEOs would not make that move so so talk about how that came came about or when when you thought about it or what. I don't, I don't, I honestly don't remember ever reaching out. We had a pretty strong relationship and from the time I took over running the company. I had a pretty much open door policy and I shared as much as I could share. We had monthly update meetings. I met with whoever from the company wanted to come and talk and ask any question they wanted to. And there are a few things that because of confidentiality agreements and so on couldn't be shared but I think the Union understood our strategy and what we were trying to do. They understood the stand we, even though we were able to buy some of the pulping equipment we wanted to to install, we couldn't get alone couldn't get ahead far enough to actually install it. So we were, you know, collectively working in that direction the whole time. So you thought of this as you in the Union had a common interest you didn't see them as an adversary. I don't believe I ever have. I appreciate that maybe some CEOs might but as Tom said I spent really I spent in the end about 39 and a half years at that facility. I pretty well knew almost everyone, most of them on a first name basis. And I think we all had a sense of trust in each other and everybody's trying to do their job and pull their weight. It's unfortunate that not every business is like that and not every leader is like that. You know, you asked earlier, one of Tom, you know what, what could government do to help this or what could be changed. I was going to ask you that too. I think something I would add to that conversation is there's been quite a shift in in business ownership, especially big business ownership in the last 12 or so 15 years. The recession of 2008 2009 and the subsequent restrictions I'll say the Sarbanes actually and some of those kind of things have just forced so much regulation on big companies and the cost involved with complying with it has taken public ownership away. And there's something like half as many publicly traded companies now as there were before that. And instead it's shifted toward private equity, private equity is generally all about the bottom line. So you see a lot of CEOs who didn't grow up on the on the on the machine floor. They don't really understand the products and the processes and who the customers are who the suppliers are. It's all about numbers. And when they look at labor, they look at cost. They don't look at it, they don't see an asset and someone that can help them. Take it on. It's a very different view if you will. It's a very traditional small business owner who grows his business knows everybody who's working for him and it evolves into a and grows into a big corporation and So I, yes, as I was thinking about it, the kind of community connection is so much of what's what's been lost where where the CEO doesn't often doesn't have a connection before he or she is is brought in, but you must have still had to negotiate with the unions I'm interested because you know the model is much more collaborative but obviously you know you have. There's still a difference once you move into the CEO suite. So when you, yeah. Yeah, and remember we were owned by a by a French conglomerate actually, and you know I was somewhat remotely aware of a lot of the issues that they dealt with in Europe and they had a couple in South America to a couple of they had a lot of labor issues way more than we did. And I'm not sure how that evolved. But of course we we had to negotiate things and we didn't always see it and everything and, of course they always are asking for more than you can afford to give and, and all but you know my view is it's an investment if you would. Our contract had opportunities to share our earnings. And in 2016 we were able to do that. We couldn't have felt better about things than to be able to do that and then we were doing well that means they should do well. I would say, yes, that's a different way of looking at it and also the idea that you know you'd be on other sides opposite sides of the bargaining table and yes, you know you can't give them. Neither side gets fully what they want but it doesn't mean that you're not in it in it together. Kevin that's a maybe a good moment to bring you in and I know you were not working at Appleton coded when all this happened. I can ask you to comment on the on the specifics, but it would be great if you could just talk a little bit about what it's like to be there now and to be a member of the Union and maybe respond to some of what Doug said from the perspective not of someone who was there then but more broadly how you see Union management relations. Absolutely. And I just want to make one clarifying point our local numbers to 144. I think there was a different numbers at the beginning so I just wanted to say that but yeah I wasn't, I wasn't there during the plant closure and during what happened with Tom getting involved. But actually one of my very closest friends was, and it was really tumultuous in the community for that family. And so the impact Tom's work and Doug's work and the Union's work, we felt it, you know, indirectly in our family at the time so it does have that impact. And I think things happen. Yeah, I looking at where we're at today. I joined the mill on the recommendation of my friend who I was there when all of this happened. I have now and Doug may very well be aware of this but a lot of the people that were called back when the mill opened up, a lot of people came back. They wanted to come back because this was their livelihood. And that's not a term that would really be taken lightly by them. We use that term a lot. But to them it's all they've known is running these paper machines. They're the same partners for 20 years. It really is their family away from home. So, and I see that coming in and you know that that's an attractive aspect of working in that atmosphere is you do have people you can rely on good workers. And of course, you know, Union contract keeping things fair, at least trying to negotiate fairness across from our side of the table so yeah the plan still stands and new people like me are coming in to join and be a part of that growing as we know with COVID. A lot of things have been shipped now right we're not, you know, seeing as much in person shopping it's a really transition into that packaging, being very, very valuable for major, major players in the market so it's great. And does it matter just thinking about it in terms of supply chains and COVID and sort of recognizing that it's not such a great idea to depend on things being shipped from halfway around the world does it matter in terms of if you're getting your boxes to Walmart or Amazon or whoever it is who's shipping that it's in Wisconsin. Absolutely. Well, papers is really a massive part of the culture in Wisconsin has been long before I was here but it's, it's hugely impactful because that those wages that are paid to us helps our micro economy right here in the Fox Valley where we are so that's a huge, huge impact to our community and our small businesses that are struggling to survive here you know restaurants closing things like that we're able to, to take our earnings and go participate in the community, which is really powerful. And what about you mean recruiting or is it is everybody unionized in the plan or partly sadly no, it is an open shop now. Thanks to the right to work bill. There were some people that didn't like how things played out and didn't want to pay dues any longer and thanks to that bill that's perfectly fine so yeah it is open shop we're still about I want to say 70% or so unionized so we're well above our threshold to keep our standing but yeah we'd like to see more involvement. And so let me ask you a broader question just and again Doug you can comment on on this as well or Tom but unions aren't always invited to the table, when to negotiate issues around with banks or private equity on really the future of a company right a lot of people would say look, the union's job is to negotiate south wages and fair working conditions and that's it, not the future of the company how do you think about that. I strongly disagree, of course, but unions should absolutely be there because our wages all those things that we negotiate their contractual, and if something threatens that contract. You know, Doug, Doug does have a very different view of trying to work with the unions, the union are local. You know, there's a lot of examples we're seeing today where that's not the case, you know, john dear and so forth but those things do affect contract and unions have a lot of resources, tons of resources we have organizing power. We have attorneys as well that can look at things from a different angle. We have media platforms as well that we can use, which we're seeing with the john dear workers there's a lot of attention now around that so that power can be beneficial for both sides. So I do think that union should be at those tables and say hey, how can we help without necessarily sacrificing everything that on our side, maybe we take a wage cut or something like that maybe we can use a different avenue to help bring some attention around this and find a better solution rather than just take it from the workers. Again, as you talk about it there's that strong sense of common value right if the plant goes under management loses the workers lose everybody loses the community loses so the sense of actually we're on the same side when it comes to keeping it going that you know it's like the size of the pie then you can argue about who gets what but you got to keep the pie there. Let me open it to all of you and Tom maybe I'll go back to you to start. So, so a big part of this is a very far sighted or community minded or right minded CEO depending on you want to want to think about it, but also a union that that he could work with. I want to think about this in terms of the role of labor more broadly I mean unions of course have been on a steady decline, although we are, we may be at an inflection point, just given, you know, labor shortages but talk about how you see this in American labor more generally. Well, and that's really that's really the thrust of this book, which is, you know, there is in the Constitution, there is the freedom of association, which of course undergird labor movement for why you can associate and organize. So, what is preventing that from happening is that these anti Union forces have the momentum, and they've been pushing back so you've got ever since Taft-Hartley, which is the birth of right to work we have these open shots. And that goes back to 1947. And about that time is when American when Union, the Union profile peaks at around 33 or 34%. So it's no coincidence that when you had that peak somewhere between the 50s and 60s was the beginning of where manufacturing declined and where we saw it and where we felt it in the 1970s. So, part of the reason why labor and management has this antagonistic antagonizing is because of law, and is because of the fights in legislature and so forth. So that is all the more reason why there is a pro labor agenda. We're talking about the pro act, which I think is important because that is going to make it easier for workers across industry to be able to organize. And that's very important, doing something about Taft-Hartley, getting rid of that understanding the origins of the problems we have in labor, go back to 1947 and Taft-Hartley. Just say a little more what Taft-Hartley provides for some folks. So Taft-Hartley was a response to a lot of the strikes and that were happening in the 1940s. And so it was trying to push things the other way. So there was an incredible amount of momentum coming out of World War II, and Taft-Hartley pushed back against that. So part of that was the right to work. And so you had shops in states that elected to be a right to work. So legislatures passed that. And so the burden was on the workers to organize and to pay their dues and to make sure that everyone who was there that was involved. So it really put the onus on labor, this energy to be on defense to have to organize. And so it was one more obstacle. And then there was the issue with the secondary strikes and so forth. But that really was that piece of public policy, but then more more over the kind of momentum that put labor on the defense. The point right now, it's taken all the way to, you know, to 2021. You know, 90 years after Wagner Act that established the National Labor Relations Board established the right to collectively bargain. 80, 90 years later, we're finally trying to add to that, to try to change things to make things easier to organize. The biggest thing is to be acknowledged by management that there is a labor union and then be able to come to the table and collectively bargain. So Doug, do you see, do you see that model. Again, the sort of less adversarial model the more if not a collaborative at times if I think about the European model but at least sort of sort of accepted that everybody is going to work things out do you see that taking hold the possibility of it taking hold the possibility. I certainly see the possibility I think every company and every, every workforce, you know has its own issues. My personal feeling is that we've all got to be rolling in the same direction. And if we don't, we as management don't share what our need is and understand what the, what the labor forces is. It's really difficult to do. So a lot of it is communication and being maybe a little bit more open and transparent about, you know how things are and where things are going. The unions themselves need to do some policing. I think a lot of the negativity toward unions comes from that that perhaps doesn't understand what their role is and sees nothing but cost and they see job restrictions where this person can't help that person because quote it's not his job and so on. Simple little things that the rank and file members don't want either. You know when you get past all that kind of stuff. There's no reason you shouldn't be working together and moving in the same direction. Kevin you want to add to view. You know, I think that a lot of companies have very similar models financially where there's this continual quarterly growth, if you will, or annual growth. Workers don't get that. Workers don't get that that level of, you know, 30% increase next year to provide for your family but you know so I think there's there's a disassociation with what's important to the company is also important to the workers and those companies profits are built on the workers backs. They're, you know, we're running the machines we're shipping the product and so forth so I think if you know wages stop being so stagnant, you know we've seen really stagnant wages over decades and but we've seen, you know CEO corporations go up hundreds of percent. There's that that disassociation does affect the economy affects worker morale. And one thing I do want to say, we have seen a huge decline in unions across the nation. That's definitely a big problem. But steel workers have found a solution to that and it's a lot of combining forces and coming together under the steel workers if you Google United Steel Workers you're going to see a very, very, very long list of trades that are actually inside of steel workers from paper to glass rubber and so forth so we're coming together to be stronger and hopefully, you know be able to collaborate better with with these companies and find common ground. And again, so I guess what, as I'm hearing you in the book I just published I wrote about the tradition of rugged individualism which actually comes from Herbert Hoover gave a speech in 1921 when he was running for, but he was before he ran for president, but it was sort of a counter to European socialism was you know these Europeans have these socialist ideas and you know we Americans are rugged individuals. And yet when you actually tell look at a lot of the stories of part of what I think are some of our, our greatest accomplishments, you actually see traditions of solidarity just as much as you do individualism it's not either or there's both and it says I'm hearing you. I'm thinking you know solidarity is not a word often that that Americans used to describe themselves it is a word that Europeans often use and yet, you know the sense of we're all in it together that's what that's really what that that means. We have a comment from the question from the audience so I will will turn it over. Well, I'll read the question. And then we can continue to discuss discussions so Steve Crawford says, don't innovations in paper products require new workforce skills. And if so, how did the firm and Union, maybe jointly reskill workers. Yes, yes, perhaps. I would say yes perhaps I mean the, the products that we moved to. In many ways were simpler to make then what we had made before that required coatings added to them and further converting and so on. New skills on the front end. Processing waste paper, handling it. And changing than what we had had previously, but not rocket science I mean it's pretty straightforward and our folks adapted very well to it. Tom or Kevin do you want to add anything. What Kevin. Yeah, I mean, slightly. There's there's a lot of carryover from what I understand. We moved from, you know, simple terms white paper to brown paper, you know really so. There wasn't a from what I understand a lot of those machines. So we actually use less machines now than we did in the abdomen coated days from what I understand the coder for example, it does not run. We just don't need it. And the point being that to the extent you did need to, to adopt new skills it was, it was perfectly doable. Absolutely. I think what's important to take in consideration here is how the paper and industries unique paper is the most capital intensive for many manufacturing companies. It's like, you know, as far as a cost structure, it's about 80 or 85%. And so that's one of the reasons why labor's been so successful and how they've been able to organize, because the cost structure is relatively smaller. So the real money makes sure that you have a really well functioning paper machine, and then you don't have as many workers relative to the overall budget. Sometimes you have folks here that are well trained and well equipped, they can do it so you have a common, you have the combination of having a strong union culture here. But then you also have the intrinsic knowledge base, because you also have, you know, dads and sons and nephews so it really becomes as Kevin talks about a way of life it's a part of the community. And the way that a machine is built up you have people who are in the woodyard, you have the broke hustler who runs around paper machine, you know, broke meal pieces that are falling off. You have the third hand the second hand, and then you have all the way up to machine tender. So it gets more and more technical and more and more difficult, but that progression makes a lot of sense because it's perfect on the job training. But the closer you get to machine tender, the less intensive it is you have someone who's been there for 3035 years and buys a little bit different than a 2025 year old. So it really is a fascinating industry of how you can bring folks in the front, train them and make it a career, and every five or 10 years you're making this progression. So, the way that the industry is, you know, just how elegant, how that is set up the different job classes makes it the perfect in industry to have a strong union culture to have good family supporting jobs, generational jobs that link a community together, because of all the people that are working. So that's interesting because a lot of the, the newer manufacturing will be closer to that right capital intensive with in various ways, it could be 3D printing but but the model is higher tech. So but but still then the labor essential to make sure that things are operating and, and so that that's that's promising that that's the capital structure. So I've got another question that says Congress is trying anyway to hammer out a reconciliation bill right now that includes a lot of investments as we know that could support the manufacturing and labor unions and workers and I will say workers also in terms of paid family leave and childcare all as far as I'm concerned those are economic policies not just family policies, they make it possible for people to work and have a family. But it says if you could give them one piece of advice, based on your experience with Appleton coded, what would it be. That's a great question dog Kevin you want to take a stab at that first. My first reaction is, it's been an awful lot of money coming out of Washington that's just being printed and thrown out. Tom mentioned earlier, the need for research and development and addressing these issues before the, the fateful day when the company has to file or the mill shuts down. We need more foresight and recognition that you can't turn a mill like this around overnight it takes years to be working toward, you know, new, new solutions and, you know, in our case, I look back in the time I was there we were making telephone directory when I started. And then there were these great years of carbonless copy paper and thermal papers and then coated the printing papers. And it's about every 20 years. You got to be looking ahead and you know here we are making brown paper today. What are we going to be doing 20 years from now. I think it's very hard to try to say what is the one thing you know you have the labor side and then you have capital side. And I think the paper industry is emblematic of that tension. We only have so many resources where do you do it you point to health security family medical leave health care childcare to make life for the worker. That is, you know, as, you know, as easy as possible taking care of these things that should have been taken care of decades and decades ago. But then there's also the capital that goes into it. And I think with, I think with paper, you can see that if you have a strong union culture you can have it both ways. You can have a strong workforce with all these elements, because we you know where I grew up and I mentioned about how I was living the American you know I was living in the American dream because it didn't matter high school education Tech College, or my dad having his demon because his, his doctor ministry, being a past, it didn't matter we had access to good schools, good hospitals. So it's really hard to make a decision one way or another but I think what's fundamentally important when it comes specific to paper industry is we need to have a national industrial strategy. This country has got to get smart and realize what what European countries, what Japan did decades ago that we need to say, This is a national security commodity. You know, whether it's microchips, you know, things like that basic things, and that we need to make sure that it's a stable industry, which means you're supporting the industry but you're also supporting the workers and by extension, supporting and growing communities, like combined locks and the rest of communities in out of gaming county and around the country. Evan you have a one thing or two things that you would do you would advise. It's hard to narrow it down to one or two but you know one thing I if I could just say something to them rather than a piece of advice is, you know, we are assets. We are the community, the workers are the nation. This isn't the economy. We can look at all the data in the world but at the end of the day it's workers trying to come over their family safely with a good livable wage that doesn't have to rely on social programs just to survive infrastructure investment in infrastructure is a direct investment into the economy and strengthening all of our local economies in the macro economy that we all live inside of. So, that that investment is key right now I think you know if we're looking at, you know, last 20 years, growing up as a millennial we've seen crises after crises from terror attacks to recessions to now a global crisis. We need an investment in the workers and strengthen and build up that that morale again in our middle class, and that that is what can help us, I believe. That sounds to me like a perfect note on which to end the title of the book after all is one day stronger. And that's that that is the message of this book that by the, all three working together management and Labor and the county and the representative of the community. Everybody is stronger that they really did. It doesn't have to be a us them, you know, adversarial approach, even if you have different interests you're going to have different interests in some cases but you have a common interest in seeing both the, the company and the community thrive, which is a sentiment I think definitely need much more of in the country but the point is we will all be stronger as a result so I strongly, I strongly I highly recommend the book. And really, I'm grateful to all of you for telling a positive story, even as you point out the difficulties of getting us there. Beyond Appleton coded but you got there and other other companies can. Thanks so much and thanks to the audience.