 there and welcome to the nonprofit show. We are so glad to have you here. Today is a Monday as I like to refer to it because Friday gets all the fun and we really need to give some fun to Monday as well. But I'm thrilled to have with us here today, Patrick. Good name. I've been practicing this last name. Patrick, good name joins us CEO and founder of talent sync. He's here to talk about what about the money and hiring staff on a tight budget. I'm sure many of you across the nation can resonate with that because as a nonprofit, we often are working on very tight budgets. But before we jump into conversation with you, Patrick, we want to remind our viewers and our listeners who we are. If we have not had the pleasure of meeting you yet, Julia Patrick, CEO of the American nonprofit Academy. If you're thinking, where is she? I can't see her. Don't worry. She's taken the day off. She'll be back here tomorrow. And I want to say thank you to Julia for creating this beautiful platform of conversation. And I'm Jarrett Ransom, nonprofit nerd and CEO of the Raven Group, truly honored to serve as a cohost and be here for this conversation. Shout out of immense gratitude goes to these amazing presenting sponsors, which include Bloomerang, American nonprofit Academy, nonprofit thought leader, fundraising Academy at National University, 180 management group, your part time controller, staffing boutique, JMT consulting, nonprofit nerd, as well as nonprofit tech talk. Again, these companies, many of them have been with us from the very beginning when we started the show in March of 2020 helped us to produce over a thousand episodes now. And if you missed any of them or you're just, you know, brand new here to the show, here's where you can find it. Go ahead and pull out your smartphone scan this QR code and you can download the app on your phone. You can find us still on the broadcast as well as the podcast channel. So don't fret wherever you like to binge watch or binge listen your entertainment. We are right there too. So Patrick, thank you for waiting. I know we had some housekeeping to get through, but for everyone watching and listening across the nation are the globe. Again, today we have with us Patrick Ghanim, CEO and founder of TalentSync. Welcome to the show, Patrick. Thank you so much for having me. Pleasure to be here today. Yeah, really thrilled. And I want to give a shout out to Zach Brown, who was the amazing human being to connect us with you, Patrick, both of you in San Antonio. Tell us a little bit about yourself, Patrick, and a little bit about TalentSync as it relates to our friends in the nonprofit sector before we jump into today's conversation. Sure. Well, thanks again for having me today. So my name is Patrick. I own a boutique recruiting firm. It's called TalentSync. We specialize in helping nonprofits strategically grow both in the San Antonio area and across the United States. How we do that is basically leveraging a couple pieces of technology as well as skilled recruiters. We have people on our staff with 20 years, 15 years experience. I'm the newbie with 10 years of experience in this space. And basically we help these nonprofits grow strategically on a budget, right? And so that's the kind of topic of our conversation today. And so we'll kind of dive into kind of what makes our approach unique and how we can help these nonprofits grow. Thank you for that. And yes, check out Patrick. I'm assuming you're well, I know you are not going to assume anymore because I know you and I have been connected on LinkedIn and you're very active on that platform as well. So let's do let's dive right in. What is a nonprofit talent pipeline? What does that look like and what are you seeing? So great question. So overall, I mean, when you're looking at building a nonprofit pipeline, we need to think about a couple things, right? And so first thing is defining our needs, right? What do we what does our organization need and how does it relate in with our our mission and our goals of that organization? And then from there, kind of start with targeted outreach to people, right? Are these, you know, what is the best way to to reach these people? Is it social media? Is it attending nonprofit networking events? Is there a particular event that speaks to your organization's mission that would be a great way of connecting to that talent pipeline that you're sinking? The other thing to consider as we're building a nonprofit type talent pool is how do we engage our existing volunteers in our community? Is there a way for us to connect better with them and offer those people opportunities to become a full time member of the organization? And then from there, you know, not only in promoting, you know, people from coming externally, but how can we also promote from within to so offering meaningful opportunities for existing employees to professionally develop and elevate themselves in the organization? That's so key because not only is that, you know, promoting from within and the growth potential from that organization within, keeping that talent within. But it also attracts people to join your organization, too. If they see that others are being promoted from within, that just makes your company and organization that much more attractive to join in the future. Beyond that, you know, building relationships, as well as another key thing I thought of when I was going to put this together. So building relationships with potential candidates, it can take a while, right, especially in the nonprofit space, which sometimes the talent pool is, you know, fairly narrow, right? And so, you know, building those connections with the future in mind that, oh, well, hey, I talked to somebody, you know, a year ago about that was perfect, but they weren't ready at the time. They might be a good person to think of now type thing. So building those relationships in that nonprofit community can really pay off in the long run, even if you may not have an opportunity available perfectly for them right now. So keep that in mind. And then, you know, this is something where talent sync and my organization can kind of come in and help as well. This is kind of utilizing technology. There's a lot of different new pieces of technology now that you can leverage to help source and search for the right people to join your organization. That's really where talent sync comes in. We basically have a strategic approach to getting talent. We are unlike any other recruiting company that goes out and post positions. We do not post any positions at all. We go out and strategically reach out to individuals who we feel are a good fit with your organization. And by doing so, we cut down on the hundreds of applicants that typically filter through an applicant tracking system and really narrow down the best people from the start to deliver talent to our clients. So that's what makes our approach a little unique. And so we use technology to do that to find the best people but also our network to basically get our clients the best talent. So so that's kind of a couple of things about thinking about a nonprofit pipeline. Beyond that, I had a couple other points and this is kind of going to social media and kind of how to market your organization. Really promote your mission. It's one recommendation I'd say. So, you know, on social media, be sure you clearly communicate your mission and your goals for the organization so that it's clear to potential candidates how your mission aligns with what you're doing on a day to day basis and how that can resonate with people that are in your network that may be interested in joining your team full time. So I hope that helps. Does that answer your question? Great insights. And I love that you bring up the mission and I want us to talk about that next is, you know, we talk often, Julie and I do, about there's 1.8 million nonprofits registered in the United States. So a lot of critical missions, a lot of, you know, emissions that so many of us can get behind. So how to find the people, the right people, right, the right talent who also believe and align and support the mission in which we're seeking that pipeline or that talent to help us as a workforce. Like, how do we find that match? Yeah, that's sometimes a challenge, right, to find that match. But there's a couple of tips I have that might be able to help a little bit. First is clearly defining that mission, right, and articulating it out through the very social media platforms that your organization uses, whether it's Twitter or LinkedIn or Instagram or whatever. But being very clear and precise about that mission and articulating how it relates on the day-to-day functions that your organization is doing. So that is one key thing, because that communicates clearly, you know, this is what we do, this is what we are, this is what we're about. And then when people see that, it typically resonates with them, oh, OK, I know exactly what you're doing. I know exactly, and that aligns with what my own personal mission and goals. As you're interviewing people, as you're kind of going through the talent pipeline part of it, where you're screening candidates, it can come up kind of organically as you're talking to people, I think, overall. And it really has to do with kind of when you're talking to candidates, when they kind of ask questions about the organization. Is it, are they bringing up, talking about the mission in the first five minutes of the conversation, or is it in the last five minutes of the conversation? Are they talking about compensation first, or are they talking about compensation last? And so those sort of things can be a self-selecting way of people showing where their missions and values are from an initial conversation. So whenever I'm talking to candidates, I always keep that in mind to see really where their interests lie as we're talking to them. So keep that in mind as you're talking to talent. I got a couple other key points about kind of missions. You know, engage with the community, right? And this is kind of a point I made earlier about basically making sure you're engaged with the local community that you serve, right? Put on events, put on social media activities, and other channels telling them about how your mission relates and impacts the community that you're in. And then leverage that network. Reach out to people in that network that are part of that group already. Reach out to previous volunteers, donors, board members, those type of people who are already likely aligned with your mission and ask them to be part of the organization. And then finally, kind of be transparent. Be transparent about your organization's goals, impacts, and challenges that they may face. This way you can help basically find potential candidates to understand and expect what to go into with your organization as they kind of look forward to kind of a full-time role potentially. So hopefully, does that help a little bit? That's very insightful. I appreciate it. Because what I'm seeing too within this space, Patrick, and we shared last week, and I forget which philanthropy publication it was, but they were talking about the C-suite exodus and how a lot of the C-suites within the nonprofit sector, those individuals are now leaving to create a consultancy practice, right? I mean, I did this 15 years ago, so I get it. I understand the desire to want to do that. So I feel like that opens up a lot of opportunities for our nonprofit sector. You talked earlier with the pipeline looking within. Is this a great opportunity to say, OK, what are we looking at? Because what I'd like to pull up really is succession planning. How do we build that into this conversation when it comes to that pipeline? And you touched on it because it really is about promoting from within. And I don't think I hear that often enough in our community. What are you seeing in regards to all that? I think that's a goal for a lot of nonprofits to attain, right? I think there's probably not enough emphasis placed on succession planning, especially with C-suite departures, right? And so that oftentimes goes into how much resources we can put into each employee in the organization to help prepare them to grow and elevate to those higher levels within the organization. So I think that's probably one of the challenges. But honestly, I think as we keep moving on into the future here, that is the right path to go down, in my opinion. Because it's a way to connect and continue the mission of the organization rather than bringing in somebody new from outside who may not be involved. It's going to be a way to continue the legacy of that team as people leave, unfortunately. So I absolutely agree with you, where it's absolutely critical to think of succession planning as we're continuing to help grow these organizations, especially C-suite level individuals. Yeah, exactly. And I am definitely not in your sub-sector of the market. But I've heard and I've learned over the last four years that a big piece of making sure that you have the right talent is to maintain and retain the talent you do have. So what I just learned from you, Patrick, is also like, how are we building our existing talent base, our pool that we have already on payroll? What are we doing to prepare them for their next position, their next role in responsibility? And I think that's really key. And I appreciate you mentioning that. Yeah. And I think that even kind of dovetails into our next part, which is talking about budget, right? And so one of the most, you know, people don't really, it's not really obvious how much it costs to hire someone often. And so or even less obvious is how much it costs to replace someone after they leave a company, right? And so the whole hiring process itself is very expensive. You have to time, resource, energy to interview someone, to source someone, all this. It's not easy, right? And so from a cost-benefit standpoint, it's often a lot more affordable to invest those resources in existing employees, help them grow and mature and move and elevate to the next level of their career within the organization rather than have departures and attrition that are very costly to replace those people on a regular basis. So from a budget standpoint, a thoughtful company should be thinking about investing in their employees rather than thinking about, oh, OK, people have left. We're going to hire some more. If we put the resources into retaining people, I think we'd have a better outcome. And to your point about succession planning, it would only help elevate, you know, as we do have key leaders in the organization leave, it would only help elevate kind of the organizations to grow in that sense, too. So hopefully that helps, too. Yeah. No, that's very helpful. So as we dive deeper into the growth that accounts for the tight budget, you mentioned a few things, right? Like the cost. I'm also interested in the time. What is the realistic time frame of an open position being filled? And that's not even touching on the learning curve and ramping up to be a fully, like, I want to say the word functioning. But I know that they're coming in fully functioning from the start, but learning, you know, their position, learning the culture, the intricacies of the team. Talk to us about resources, both time and money, if you can. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I will say it really depends on the role, right? You can have junior roles where the ramp up time is fairly quick. You can have more advanced roles and leadership roles where the ramp up time is longer. It really depends. There's also technical roles, too. I mean, for example, I'm working with a client where we're helping them build a IT team. They're growing it from 30 people to 65 people right now. And so we're hiring these higher level architect positions, but at the same time hiring customer success people, too, which are more kind of more day to day operational type people, too. So they're going to have different ramp up times, but they're all going to start at the same time. So hopefully with onboarding, where it's clearly defined kind of the organization's mission and culture at the start, they should all have a good start together, and then kind of from there kind of grow and develop within the organization. I think realistically, 30 to 60 days is when most companies can get ramped up and get somebody going. Sometimes it's sooner, but those are typically more junior positions. And for more strategic C-suite level positions, it's going to take longer to know the intricacies of the position and understand exactly who I need to talk to for this. And a lot of times there's C-suite positions. It takes 90 days at a minimum just to understand the organization and everything that entails with that particular role. So the short answer is that it depends, but really making sure that they have the resources to succeed I think is the most important part once they join your organization. So having that infrastructure in place and having maybe a point person. I've seen, for example, having people buddy up, like a buddy partner when you get new hires on board. So you have somebody that's been there on the team one or two years, and they kind of partner with this person, welcoming them in, helping get them accustomed to the culture of the organization, and really just kind of being a friend and ally to somebody who's completely new. And so that may be an approach that might resonate and work with some organizations. And it doesn't really cost too much, right? It's just helping partner up and help other people. And that's a good way to use your budget, I guess. Absolutely. I'm curious how all of this, because I've been listening with all of it in mind, but we've got in-person, right? Like our onsite staff, we have completely remote staff. We have hybrid. We have offshore. Like, how does all of the workforce right now, like, what are you seeing when it comes to your company with TalentSync in the variety of employment opportunities, as well as locations? I mean, we joked about time zones, because I'm in Arizona and with one. But like, how does all of that play into this conversation, Patrick? I'm really curious. Yeah. And it's a really interesting environment, especially since COVID, right? We've kind of done a full swing from everybody fully in the office to fully remote during COVID to hybrid now. And then now I've seen in my space a lot of push to have people back in the office, right? And so I think it really depends on the organization. But I think there is a big push overall to get people in the office for the same goal of just collaborating with people face to face, which I think is a noble reason. I don't know if it works for every organization, given how we've been hiring across the last three years in a COVID landscape where we've got people in Nebraska working for companies in Austin and stuff like that. So it's something where how practical is it for people to come into the office is a question I have. I think if you're building a new team, there is definitely encouragement to have people come to the office if you're hiring locally, right? And so for example, that client I mentioned where we're building a team, an IT team, they only wanted to hire local, right? They only wanted people that could come into the office who are local here to San Antonio, who could be face to face with their peers, right? And so there's pros and cons to that too, because when you do an approach like that where you're hiring just local, you're limited to the talent pool that's just there in that local vicinity, right? Rather than if you expand it to a remote position, well, you have the entire country to choose somebody from. And so it's interesting, you have pros and cons with every approach and it really comes down to the leadership and what they value most to kind of the approach and direction they go. I think each has pros and cons. If you're a smaller organization where having a brick and mortar presence is a costly piece of your budget, well, then maybe a remote staff that can do the same capabilities makes sense, right? If you're an organization that already has a lease on something and you really wanna build something local, well, then maybe fully in the office makes sense. It all depends, just saying. It does, and I see it often where it will say like, and I even know my friends at Bloomerang, they are still hiring for more rock stars to join their team and it'll say based in Indiana, if you're in the local community, you're welcome to work on site and there's that remote option if you don't live near their headquarters. So there's really a variety that's taking place here but it's all really fascinating and I'm really curious to see how it's going to move us forward because I do think at this time, Patrick, there's a lot of things really coming into like merge and I don't mean merge as in like an acquisition but merge as if there are conversations about growth in the nonprofit, there are conversations about succession planning and I am still doing a lot of strategic planning where the CEOs are saying it is time for me to retire because they've held on so very long, well past what they wanted to, to help really just maintain some normalcy over the last four years. So there's a lot going on, Patrick, I am thrilled to have you dive deep into this conversation. It's a conversation I'm going to say and I'm sure you see this more than I do. It is constantly evolving. So I don't know how you keep your finger on the pulse. I mean, besides this is your job, this is your career, this is what you do but it's ever changing the landscape of the workforce is changing the landscape and we could have you on to talk about this in a separate conversation, like the needs and the advocacy that our employees are doing nowadays during the interview process, like that to me is all new and I welcome it but it's just, again, it's an evolution of landscape. Yeah, it's an interesting space, working to hire people and grow these organizations. It's really fun, that's what I'm passionate about. I really love helping people find their right roles and really love helping organizations find the right talent they need to grow and that's what we're all about here at Talent Sync. So thank you again for having me on the show today. Hey, thank you. For everyone watching and listening, you just heard from Patrick Ghanim, CEO and founder of Talent Sync. Check them out online. Their web address is talentsyncltd.com and as I mentioned earlier in the show, Patrick is also very involved on LinkedIn and another shout out to our friend Zach Brown who sent you to us. So really glad to have you here. You're doing some great work, Patrick, so thank you. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. And before we sign off, another shout out of gratitude to Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy that had this kooky idea in March of 2020 to build out the non-profit show and to invite me to serve along as a co-host. I'm Jarrett Ransom, non-profit nerd as I push up my nerd glasses as CEO of the Raven Group. And as you can tell, I love nerding out with our... I'm gonna call you another nerd, Patrick, because you're in the workspace nerd, but I love these conversations. They are so much fun to me and I continue to learn and educate myself. We wouldn't be here if it weren't also for these amazing sponsors. So immense gratitude to our friends at Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, non-profit thought leader, fundraising academy at National University, 180 management group, your part-time controller, staffing boutique, JMT consulting, non-profit nerd as well as non-profit tech talk. Again, we are so very honored to have their investment and commitment to these conversations, because as I mentioned to you, Patrick, the landscape not only in the workforce and the talent acquisition, but overall is ever changing. So grateful to have your insights on this conversation. Thank you for all that you're doing. Thank you so much for having me on the show today. I really appreciate it and have a great day. Yeah, well, as we sign off every episode, and I'll say this for you as well, Patrick, and all of our listeners that are tuned in, we invite you to stay well so you can do well. Thanks again, Patrick, and for everyone else, we'll see you back here tomorrow. Have a great day.