 This is the billed OGM call for Tuesday, October 12, 2021. Well, I'm pleased you have connectivity back and that means your connectivity is much fancier and faster and better, right? In theory, yeah. At least it's better than it was. And I mean, it was always pretty good in my office, but we have a house which is four floors and my router comes in on my office, which is the fourth floor and the house is made of heavy reinforced concrete. So we also now have connectivity on each of the other floors, which was important. Did you need like a repeater in each floor? We're doing it at the moment with two repeaters and hopefully we'll get down to one repeater. And also some don't know the right English word for it, but the Dutch word is a klonge word. That sounds like a special secret term, a technical part. Yes, klonge. That someone who clungles along and does everything ask backwards. And so the last people we had in the house, they were clungles and they connected the internet and with the dimmers of our lamps. So every time there was a dimmer and you use the dimmer, it squeezed the internet connection. Could you imagine? Anyway. That's just so weird. That's just so weird. We have Lifex bulbs and which are one of the brand, Philips makes a, I'm forgetting what they're called, but there's a couple of smart bulbs. So we have Lifex singles, I like it. And so we can speak our lights to different colors and on and off and all that kind of stuff through our, and they're connected through Wi-Fi, but they don't interfere with our connection. They're just hanging out waiting for us to say something. Yeah. That sounds good. That sounds really good. And then we have both Alexa and Google Assistant. Oh yeah. And so these are automated through Google Assistant. The Alexa has turned that to be mostly a kitchen timer. I use it, or an exercise timer, like, hey, two minutes for this stretch. And then we use Google for everything else. Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. And it's fun, the number of things Google can do, I mean. Can it work at a distance? For example, can you be a couple of miles away and ask Google to do it? So I have an Android phone. And so when I can say, hey, Google and my phone will wake up and say, what do you want me to do? And the Assistant that is on here is exactly the same Assistant that is on the Google Assistant device. So yes, I haven't tried like home control from far away, but I think I could. I'm not sure. It may know that I'm in the room or not in the room and it may gate my ability to like turn the lights on, but it shouldn't. And there's actually, there's also a Lightfix app and I'm pretty sure that from anywhere in the world I could make April go crazy at home by just switching the lights to like Halloween mode, Carnival mode, Flashing mode, Haunted House mode, whatever. Yeah. Sounds good, sounds really good. So do you have Bixby on your phone? That's who I have on my phone. I don't even know Bixby. So are you on a Samsung phone? Yeah, I'm on a Samsung phone. So Bixby is Samsung's version of Siri, Alexa and Google Assistant. Right, okay. And so I've never owned any Samsung hardware. I've never bought a Samsung phone or anything. Oh yeah, the last 10 years I'm more or less stable with Samsung. And so Samsung is Android plus Samsung's software, right? Yes, and I've got not, the latest one is a folding phone. I don't have that, but I have the phone that they brought out a year ago, which has fantastic cameras. Like the cameras, yeah, it's supposed to be really good. Good battery life, really good screen colors and so, so I'm, and still fits in my pocket, big screen but it fits in my pocket. So I'm pretty pleased with that. Yeah. That's great. Stacy, are you Android iPhone? I'm Android, I'm Samsung. And I hear people saying, what a great camera. And I think it's the worst camera ever, but, but I also didn't even know what Bixby was. Like I see it there. Like I close off a lot of my apps because I'm just paranoid. And I'm wondering if maybe I have something closed that would affect the camera. Maybe, but I don't. The camera, like if you open, there should be a default camera app. And if you open that, you should be taking really good pictures. Just the default settings on the Samsung phone should give you good photos. That's weird. Yeah. I've had excellent, this is my fourth Samsung phone. And all of them have been progressively better, but even the first one of the 10 years ago made great photos. Well, I mean, I'm talking about when I'm taking pictures in the dark, like of lights on the bridge or something like that. Yeah. It's horrible. Oh, too bad. Too bad. I mean, I'm not a really great fiddler with settings, but I do think there's lots of settings you can fiddle with like night views and long exposures and stuff like that. I will have to congle with them. Clungle with them. You can clungle. Clungle with them. Clungle with them. And one way to do that is just go on YouTube and say, Samsung take better pictures or something like that. And very likely you'll find some people with tutorials and with some examples. It's like insane how many people have put like instructional videos on YouTube. The one thing that I do love about it is it has a really easy way of sharing things. Like really easy, like I wish everything had it. It gives me a choice if I wanna copy it to my clipboard or if I wanna email it or message it or all these different things. And I can't do that on my computer. Yeah. Do you wanna share it with the NSA? Do you want to email it to Putin? Do you want like anything? Anything is possible. Well, not even that. Like right now, let's say I had, if I was on a Zoom call on my phone, I would have no trouble sending you something from that I got off of Facebook and putting it in the chat. But on my computer, you see how much trouble, which by the way, when you get off, check your messenger because I sent you something you had asked for. I don't even remember what it was. Oh, okay. I put it there because I couldn't find any other way to get a chip. Oh, I know. It was Daniel Schmackenberger's post. I put it in your message. Thank you. So messenger, you mean Facebook messenger? Correct. Okay, good. And I haven't opened Facebook yet. So it's like a cue of things I've gotta go check for the daily rounds. We all make the daily rounds, right? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The biggest, you mean that figuratively, right? There's no place called, okay. No, no, no. The daily runs in the sense of you go to LinkedIn, you check the updates, you check messages, you go to Facebook, you go to your email, of course, and there's like a torrent of stuff in there. Yeah, I'm just email Facebook Zoom. That's just a triangle. But the one thing that's really lacking is like a virtual bookshelf for me where I could just, you know, put, you know, like let's say I come across memes that I think, oh, I can think of a project where I will want to use all these great memes. I used to use my page as my sort of library that I knew I'd always be able to go back to. And then that proved to be dangerous. Yeah, yeah. It makes you too vulnerable for people to know things, you know, it's just not good. It's too public. But it would be great to, when I first saw the brain, the way I was looking at it slightly different, I was seeing the human as the center of that page and I was seeing, you know, the different parts of their lives and thinking that I could put my stuff in the different places where it related. Right. Even in the brain. In the brain. And like I visualized everybody having their own page of the brain. So if I went over, let's say, I, I wish. But that's really how I see it. Like more human centered so that if I know I really resonate with Hank, I really like him. I want to see who he's hanging around because there's a good chance I might, you know, click with those people too. Yeah. That's basically how I used Facebook in the early days. It was very, very helpful. An algorithm couldn't have done that for me because an algorithm couldn't have seen that warm data. Right. And also we, we usually mostly make our friends networks visible on Facebook. So you can actually scroll through. If there's somebody you like, you can scroll through and see who they're friends with and then friend some of them, those people up and that works really nicely. Well, but that's, see, it works really nicely for a well-meaning individual. Yeah. But it is extremely dangerous which is why my friends list is private. Right. Exactly. And I don't, I don't accept requests. Even if I know, you know, if I see somebody unless I speak to them, I won't, and I feel badly, but I won't accept the request because it's just, it's just not good. I learned the hard way, it's not good. Exactly, exactly. And we need to mind our privacy. So two services you might want to consider. Pinterest is the one that many people use for keeping their own personal, hey, I'm going to want to refer to this later. And sometimes people create their own private pinboards. You don't have to share your pinboards. So Pinterest might be useful to you. And then factor is Michael Grossman's platform. It's actually elegant. It lets you take news and other kinds of items and add some, I think you can add tags to them. You can share them with other people if you want. But, you know, a few of us are in factor. I'm not using it regularly because I use the brain all the time. Like, like, you know, there's a bunch of stuff I don't use because I'm so invested in the brain. But you might want to play with factor for a second and just see if it does this library thing for you. Is there a recording where Michael did a deep dive of how factor worked? We can ask Michael, I don't know. I can't think of one. Yeah, yeah. Cool, so let's do a little bit of OGM building, shall we? Yeah, good idea. Cool. And thank you for all of that. That's just like, my brain is now relaxing into our space. Yeah, I appreciate it. Despite all the talk there, Bixby and cluggling. So this progress is happening. On tomorrow's call at the same hour, we'll go into weaving the world and all that kind of stuff. But I'm moving ahead on that. I've got a bunch of things still missing to be done. But one of the things I think that needs to be finalized tomorrow is when is the first call and what is the rhythm and all that kind of stuff. But we'll leave that sort of for tomorrow. Yesterday, Pete and I had a really nice session where part of the funding that came from Jim Rutt's Family Foundation is for two tiles to fund two little projects that fit into the big mosaic of what OGM sees is needed in the world. And so yesterday, Pete and I started framing up because everything is a project, apparently. We started framing up a project plan for, we called it CROV. And I'm sworn to secrecy about why we named it that because every project needs a funding middle name. So project CROV basically describes automating as much as possible recordings that come off of Zoom, Zoom calls. So we're starting with just that. And then figuring out how much can we automate the production of those recordings into a series of different assets. So one asset, you know, and I do this, I do this now all manually and minimally, right? So I take the Zoom video recording and I just upload it to YouTube. And I don't, unless there was like, you know, on the Thursday calls because it turns on as soon as the first person shows up in the room, sometimes there's a 30 minute tail on the front of the Thursday calls that I have to go and cut off, right? Because I don't really want, and sometimes there's a nice two people chatting who got their early sort of thing, but I try to cut those off. But cutting them off is a bit of a chore because I don't want to pull the video into an editor. I do it in YouTube studio and YouTube studio for some reason decides to completely redo the video. As soon as you trim it, the trimming is a little awkward to do. You're not quite sure you're doing the right thing. And then it takes forever to redo the video and get it back up, but it works, but it works. And then I don't do anything with the audio file. I don't do anything with the chat file. We've failed to move our chat over to Mattermost Chat, so that's not working very well. I only get a transcript for the Thursday calls because we're using Collective Next's a slightly pricier version of Zoom there, et cetera. And then I don't create a new webpage for every call, but I annotate everything in my brain. So I'm busy doing sort of weaving, world weaving in my brain every time that I'm on a call. And I don't know if you, I think both of you might have been on the call, but there was a call recently where I was like, if Mark Caranza or I are on a call, then a natural byproduct of that call will be us weaving into the tool of preference for us, like what we heard and what's going on the call. And for Mark, it's MX and it's most of his data is private, but he's shifting around quite a bit now. He's starting to think that he'd like to experiment more in public, which is great, which is actually fantastic. And he's got a version of my exported brain that I think he's trying to absorb into MX. And we'll see how that works. And the tools are different enough that I'm not sure that there's a comfortable fit, et cetera, et cetera. So anyway, we're trying to figure out how to automate with Pete lots of stretches of the production process because to have a pretty podcast, it needs to have an intro and an outro. It needs to be edited some along the way. All of that is time consuming, but then there's things like Descript. Are you guys familiar with Descript? I'm not, no. Let me find the proper URL. So Pete found this and it's quite brilliant. It costs money, which I don't have quite budget for yet, but this is, it works for podcasts, for audio and video podcasts. And here's the URL to the company. And what Descript does is it automatically creates a transcript of your recording, all right? Cool. Then you can edit the transcript. And if you cut a sentence out of the transcript, it cuts a sentence out of the recording and edits it nicely. You can then move words around in the transcript and it'll move the sounds properly in the recording. You can, it also has a command to take out all the ums, errs, ores and the long pauses. And it will trim those out of the recording and pretty those up automatically. It even has a deal with a company called Liarbird. And this is going to creep you out a little bit, but it has a company, it has a deal with a company called Liarbird and you can type in new dialogue, tell it who's voice to make that in and it will speak that dialogue into the recording as if that person were saying it's, this is like super smart. That part of it is a little deep fake and a little wacky, but it might come in useful if you meant to say something or if you have something unintelligible that you need to sort of add something in. Yeah. But anyway, so at some point in the future we may get a Descript account and use it to shorten some of the work in the middle here. But anyway, so I'm working, sorry for the long story, but so Pete and I more or less have the first piece of the first tile in process and I'm gonna find what we're going to fund is his investigating all the different moving parts and completing the plan. And then if that all looks good then we'll basically fund the rest of it which is writing the software and then putting in the software will mostly be a series of scripts that get executed. So a script Stacy could say, take the file from here do this thing to it, filter it and then put it over here or there's lots of different things or submit this file automatically to Amazon. Amazon has its own speech recognition system. So AWS Amazon Web Services has a speech recognition function among the million things it knows how to do which is sort of cheaper because you just sort of pay by the recording it's cheaper than getting a monthly account on one of these other services like Otter. The other really good transcription services Otter and the reason that Zoom creates good transcripts if you pay for them is that they have a deal with Otter. So the speech transcription, speech to text behind Zoom is Otter. So I get Otter for free, why is that? I don't know from where? From Otter. I have like an Otter account from like two years ago. Oh, interesting. And you're not paying anything for it. Do you use it to transcribe stuff? Back then I did and then recently I tried once and then I was doing something I was distracted. Let's just put it that way. Yeah, cause it could be that you had a free account early and they started charging. I mean, it could be that they've morphed, I don't know but I don't know that Otter has a free setting maybe, huh? It was, I mean, it was, maybe it was, I mean, I was, yeah, you know what, let me look into it and then I'll tell you exactly what it is. Yeah, so there's increasingly all these tools out there and what we want to do is make it so that the production of nice audio and video artifacts, including web pages for these sorts of things works seamlessly. And let me screen share for a second because, all right, Dunbar. On Jim Roth's suggestion, I got us, I've got us, oh, that's weird, let's spell on everything right. Here's the Jim Roth show, here's episode 140. Oh, Dunbar on friendship. Okay, I didn't have both names. Anyway, on Jim Roth's suggestion because it seemed topical and it was a good example. I listened to this episode of the Jim Roth show and let me just go to the page. And on the, like here's episode 140 of the Jim Roth show which is his interview with Robert Dunbar, famous up for the Dunbar number. Here's the audio of the file and then there's a very nice transcript. There's a briefing up top sort of a thing and then episode transcript you click here and all of a sudden you have the full text of the show, nicely edited, so as much as possible. Here, Jim, today's guest is Robin Dunbar. Robin, no, great to be here. This looks like a really themed up transcript, right? And then with a little warning at the top, hey, this is not a completely edited transcript, it's a rough transcript, so that's good. So the people know that it hasn't been edited through but then I listened to this podcast which is an hour and five minutes and this is what I did note taking with that recording, right? And so partly because I'm gonna do a lot of this for Weaving the World and for everything else, partly to understand better and describe better how much and what role my brain plays in all of this. And so for example, these are notes that I took from, actually quotes that I copied and pasted in my brain from the call, but Stacey, this is my bookshelf, but this is my bookshelf and my moleskin, right? So I actually sort of, I take notes in here as well, not complete notes of a call but I'm really pretty much note taking in here. So we invest very heavily in five core shoulders to cry on friends. The book that we're talking about here is, so the book that Dan by recently published is called Friends, Understanding the Power of Our Most Important Relationships and in there, one of the things that comes up in the podcast is, and I think I showed this yesterday, the seven pillars of friendship and sharing the same sense of humor is number six and what I didn't do yet, which I can do now is say sense of humor, which I know I have in the brain and doesn't have a webpage. I mean, that isn't connected to like a Wikipedia page, which I should do. And so now my computer's fan has kicked in, man. There we go. And so now I've connected one of his seven pillars of friendship to senses and sense of humor isn't connected to humor. Wow, this is really like a backwater and there's humor. I need to go back in here after our call and clean this up. But here's, I've now connected directly into humor. So here's types of humor, the eight patterns of humor, the devil's dictionary, whimsy, parodies, jokes, cringe comedy, cringe comedy should take us to the office. Here's the original office and here's the American version of the office, et cetera, et cetera. Here's LAG. If you haven't watched LAG, you should watch LAG. So I'm doing this just to show that this is also the kind of asset that weaving the world is going to create alongside all those other assets. So the more we can automate the creation of all these things, the better because right now the, oh, Otter's feeding for the first 600 minutes. The first, wow, really 10 hours? That's what it says. Well, gosh darn, that's monthly or the first 600 ever monthly? It said the free basic subscription is the simplest available and enables users to record up to 600 minutes of audio per month. That was March, 2020. Okay, good. So I should be using it more. Thank you. Appreciate that. So anyway, all that to say that there's now a tile that's moving into place to start building out a piece of the software that we need in order to deconstruct events like calls, turn them into useful assets and then mine those assets into like the mind map I just showed and then a bunch of other things, right? So Hank, if there was a small population of positive cartographers who wanted to tackle all these things and see what they were, we would be feeding them lots of raw materials to go do their cartography, for example, right? In lots of other places. Yeah, exactly. Just to make sure I'm clear. So the project itself is writing the list of what needs to happen. Like I just... So at the end of Pete doing this crowd project, at the end of it, there will be a series of scripts that I will be able to use that will be also in the open source. Got it. There will be on our GitHub repo that anybody could go use that will automate the steps to download and then process and then re-upload. I would love it if at the end of the day the video file was edited and uploaded to YouTube. The audio file was downloaded and edited and uploaded to Anchor. I mean, and if both were uploaded to the internet archive, for example, automatically, it'd be fantastic if all that were done. The very likely result is there will be some intermediate steps where humans have to do some stuff, right? But that set of scripts is what Pete is going to write and he's also going to document them. Yeah. So that someone else can come in and go, oh, okay. And we're going to do not the all singing, all dancing version of this, but we're going to assume that the recording is coming from Zoom, for example, right? Because there's lots of other ways you could create a recording, there's lots of formats that could show up and we are not doing that whole wide input funnel. We're doing this limited version. So somebody else could pick up this code, by the way, and then they could add a, oh, I've just added like a front end so that this thing will now talk to a bunch of other platforms as input. That'd be fantastic. And if they contributed that back, then we've made that little body of open source software better and somebody else created a little tile that fits in front of Pete's tile, that's metaphorically what's going on here. Does that make sense? Yes. Thank you. Awesome. And then Lather Rinse Repeat is the idea. And then on Monday's free Jerry's brain call, Hank, you would have enjoyed Monday's call. That's where you were stuck with, with clungals. But, so the first half of the free Jerry's brain call was like one of our, one of our doom reveries because I sort of, I opened the call having read a couple of doom-like articles, but so we spent a half hour kind of on, so what on earth do we do? And then we shifted into, okay, so what does it actually mean to free Jerry's brain? And then it turned out that, you know, we had four technical people on the call and they had really different opinions about how to go about liberating my brain. And Stacey and I were like the non-geeks on the call going, well, that's interesting. And Stacey, I don't know what your reaction was. Mine was like, oh man, okay, we kind of have to sort this out. So my reaction was kind of interesting because I mean, first of all, I just wished that there was somebody that had this technical experience, but that was female. Cause I really was curious to see if some other part would be brought in. That was really what I sat there thinking the whole time. And a name did come to mind, but I don't really know the person. So I don't know why that name was coming to mind, but I'll share it with you after. I did share it with Pete cause I wound up talking to Pete later on. Yeah. And we have some geeks in the crowd, like Christina Bowen is very technical. That was the name. That was the name. And I was getting asked you if you had spoken to her just to get her opinion. So I haven't talked with her in a while. 2018, I did a bunch of work with Christina and we were all trying to stand up a little consultancy that did stuff. And it didn't sort of all come together, but she's still doing things in that realm. And I haven't talked with her about free jury's brain at all. I don't think that's even coming to conversation, but I could. That was my intuitive thing. It didn't come from anything that made sense. But she then works with other geeks like to look at more Brown and a bunch of others to actually do a bunch of coding. So she's really geeky, but she actually uses other geeks to code stuff. Well, but my thought was, cause I was trying to figure out why am I getting her name? Like why? And then, you know, after talking to Pete, I realized maybe it's just as simple as she would know somebody else to connect you. Or what are those kinds of things? Exactly. And then there's a couple other geeks in OGM who are women like Wendy Elford is very geeky, but I think not in a build your website kind of way, but in a text analysis and processing kind of way. So she uses something called Lexi Manser, which is a very advanced tool for processing large bodies of text and making sense out of them in some way. I don't actually know all the features it has, but she runs very geeky on that. And I don't know in what other sort of, in what other senses she does that, you know, the thing that I notice all the time is that the kind of mind that creates the text is not necessarily the same mind that's going to be using it. Oh, for sure. Yeah. And, you know, that, you know, there needs to be more bridging there. Yep. Yep. Exactly. So, so, so some of these pieces are starting to sort of come into view and be connected. We have some funding to start a show. I need to figure out the relationship between the main episodes of the show and what to call and how to frame the weaving episodes that like weave the big fungus. Like I think my default setting right now is that those are all episodes of weaving the world, that there's not like two podcasts, there's just one, but that the episodes of weaving that are post-processing are bonus episodes or special episodes or behind the curtain episodes or something like that, right? Yep. And then I think they have two different intros. I think that I'm busy creating some texts which I will share into the WTWOps channel shortly, because they're just too thin right now, but I'm creating sort of intro and outro texts to have scripts to record once, so that these things get just put on the front and back of each of the recordings. And I think that the ones that are post-processing need to have a, okay, you know, this is one in a series of whatever we call these things where we take the last episode and go and sort of melt it and rework it and connect it up and riff on it with several different visualization tools to try to build this larger collective memory. Yeah. Something like that. So I'm excited about that. And there's a few more pieces I've got to kind of put in place to do the first episode, but I think we're, I'm kind of ready to start doing maybe like two episodes a week. And by episodes, I sort of mean a primary episode and its follow-up, it's post-processing. Any thoughts you have on language to use about whether I call these behind the curtain or weaving itself or like all thoughts welcome on how to frame that. Say the first part of the question. I didn't really hear the, I don't really know this. So there's primary episodes and then there's the episodes where we just pay attention only to what got said in the primary episode and then take it deeper and, you know, weave it into the big fungus. So to speak, mulch it up, compost it. I could even call them like composting episodes or something like that, you know, because composting does work with big fungus. That's, you know, close enough natural metaphor that that could work, but or metabolizing the first ones. That's not good. That's not felicitous. But I'm trying to figure out what's the language that nicely describes the work of the post-processing. And then there's always the phrase, we'll fix it in post, which applies very narrowly to movie making where you, you know, you just edit and do stuff to the film you captured to enhance, correct, whatever. That's not quite the right metaphor here. In my perfect world, that episode, rather than being streamline would sprout into different episodes. And it very potentially could. And what I'm realizing is, let's pretend we talked to Tyson Yungaporta or Daniel Smartman Burger or whatever. We're not going to solve everything in a couple hours of conversation or a couple hours of post-processing. This thing could easily fragment and get, you know, go hydra on us in lots of fruitful ways. And to encompass that and set expectations, I think a piece of what the intro needs to say, which is what I'm working on to put in the script is, and by the way, we're just trying to take bites out of all this. We are not going to map all of human knowledge by ourselves on this little podcast, but we're going to do, we're going to behave in a way that helps us do it all collectively with the rest of you. So if you're inspired to do this kind of, this kind of stuff like, please, like get in touch, come join us. We're trying to take all, we're trying to make all of our materials as useful to you as possible. Do you know what the first one is gonna be? Not necessarily the guest, but the... Not sure. I think that among the first few, Mila and Joe and Amber were on a call recently where there was like a setting. So I sent them an email saying, hey, would you like to sort of organize like an early, early, early call in the sequence? And they were like, yes. And Mila was looking for something that's actually sort of very much about weaving and very emergent. I don't know who any of them are. Yeah, and they've been on some of our other calls. I think they were on the flotilla call. I'm trying to remember which call all of us were on where this conversation came up when I was like, this, let's do this as a call. So that's going to be one of the earliest calls on purpose to bring a feminine energy in. But what is the subject? Like, well, I don't know them. So what is their focus? I think it's sort of the feminine, and I'm going to phrase it poorly here, but the feminine effect aspects side of this weaving act. What do we mean by weaving? And what emergent wisdom do we have on the topic? Where does it take us? Okay, so putting that into practice, which I like to think that's what I try to do. When I was just looking into things and just coincidentally, I reached out to a friend that hasn't been very active, but I thought she'd be really good for this project. She's just brilliant and she knows some of the people here and she's connected to the indigenous populations and whatever, but we're actually going to talk later. But I realize that there are other groups that are trying to do exactly this. And I was thinking, wouldn't it be perfect to start with a call with them? And weave, weave right there because then you're weaving in everything. I like that a lot. I like that a lot. And in some sense, anybody doing a nice podcast like Jim Rutz that I just showed you is doing some of this work because they're leaving behind a great artifact. And I realized just in post-processing that podcast that I could have a lifetime of unpaid employment, processing all of the good episodes of other people's shows that are already in the world, right? That there's like this endless supply of good materials like that created by individuals or other communities. So I think they seem to be finding a community that's doing this kind of work together that's excited about like the common work would be perfect. And I want to say, and I hope it doesn't sound terrible, but I really do want to say it. It's been on my mind. The difference is finding the community that's looking to do this is really bringing a different, they have a whole different mindset because what I see a lot are men who, and it's not just men. There's a school that wants to promote themselves. They may be really good people, but at the core they want to promote themselves. So all through Facebook, when I'm getting all these sponsored things, they're looking to promote themselves. And while I understand there's a need people have to eat, that mentality is not the best one to seed the birth of something new. And I think it goes to sort of when, I don't know Obsidian, I don't know Rome, but I understood the conversation about those two. And I read through what everybody had to say. And I thought, and it made a lot of sense to me that when you have certain people, it's just two different mindsets. And I'm not trying to paint one as bad and one as good. Yeah. Anyway, I think starting with the community is important. And I think that you will find in those communities that there already are a lot of women. And I don't think that's a coincidence. Cool. And then I would love to figure out which ones and approach them and say hi, and would you like to play together? That sounds perfect. Well, I have one, again, I don't know. I'm just generalizing up here, but I noticed she was in OG. I somehow I found the library society. Oh, sure, sure. Jamie Joyce. Jamie Joyce. I thought she'd be interesting to talk to for a number of reasons. Yeah, I don't wanna take you on a tangent right now. No, that's okay. And she's part of a group called CDL, Canonical Debate Lab, which Bentley is in and a couple other people who were in OGM are also in those weekly conversations. They've been working for a while. And I think Canonical Debate Lab is a very weird name, like Canonical and Debate are just very strange words to use, but that's what they do. And she's building this big library of society, which I think that conversation would actually be great. So maybe the... Something very interesting on that site, which actually I am gonna go on a tangent a little bit because I had mentioned to Pete, it would be really cool as a way to connect if the goal was to take one idea from every place we visited and speak to the people and put it together. One of the things I liked about her website is there's a page for volunteer opportunities that you could do in five minutes, in 10 minutes or in 15. And I think that's just something that should be, I think that that could be useful to so many organizations. And it's helpful to people too, because as we've discussed, sometimes people want to pitch in or do something, they don't know what to do. So that's a weaving activity at its core as far as I'm concerned. I completely agree. I do think it's important to speak to the various communities in advance before you invite them into the first podcast. Some weaving communities are very authentic, some are very affloating a couple of miles above the atmosphere, some are really technical, some are, so I mean, you should know who you're inviting in before you invite them in. And then you can structure the episode in that way, 20 forms of weaving and 21 versions of the truth. Probably everyone who recalls it. This could be like Kurosawa's run. Yeah, for example, yeah. Or the Alexandria quartet, yeah. Yeah, I mean, in some sense, we're doing a little bit of that. I mean, for me, a healthy fungus, a healthy environment will preserve the individual perspective of participants. And then importantly, we'll make room for them to crystallize parts of what they see into larger collections of, yes, this whole mass over here, these different communities have agreed that we really love this map, this piece over here, this chunk of wisdom really resonates for all of us communities. We don't know about the rest of the world, but if you come in and talk to us, we'll point you over there and go, that part's really good. And then we're trying to garden the rest of it and compost the rest of it so that it tastes as good as that bit over there. And then I think that's a piece of it. But for me, really importantly, if I'm going to exit Jerry's brain and move to some other medium, I need always to be able to back up and go see only what I put in. Like me having my context is incredibly important to me at this point. But I don't get a shared context at this point and I'm dying for that. I really want to be able to see, okay, great. Here's how Stacey sort of organized this set of things. And I'd like to be able to make those connections. And one of the tiles that I'm looking forward to trying to spec and create a project plan for is the tile that says, what does that interaction look like? What does it look like? And if Stacey's using a different tool, if she's on Miro or on Rome or something else, still she's got notes and she's curating them in some way that works for her, how do we hold these things up next to each other? And then how do we weave loose hyphae between our works? Yeah, very good, really good. Yeah. And cool, go ahead Hank. I was just going to ask, and how do you envision a emerging product that you might want to do something with? So, I think already there is a trail of calls on YouTube that we've got from the 18, 19 months we've been talking together or 16 months, however long it's been that OGM has had multiple calls. There's a trail on YouTube of openly available calls. There are files on GitHub repository that we've left behind. My brain, I publish openly on the web, but it doesn't really have a good API or anything. So it's not that open, but it's available. We already have a few artifacts that we're leaving behind in the world. The idea now is to leave more and better artifacts that eventually morph into this big fungus because they start to actually be nutritious and connected, right? Because right now they're interesting. And just like the Jim Rutz podcast episode that I post-processed, they're interesting and useful. And that one was a particularly nutritious episode, right? So I got lots of connections and I learned a lot of stuff and I started connecting things. And so in order to get to a shared memory, we need to do some pioneering. And then whatever tile pieces of code we write, we're gonna put those in the comments so that other people can go, oh, I'd like to use that too, right? And then together by having these conversations and continuing to do this, I think we'll sort of narrow our way or find our way into a shared environment where lots and lots and lots of people can be doing this. And there's some magic does have to happen sort of in the middle there somewhere because some of the pieces are simple because we've been talking about all this advanced technology that we can use, you know, Otter and Descript and all those things are like, wow. If these things that existed, you know, 15 years ago, all of us would have been completely stunned. And now they're just like, oh, yep, here, it's a service and at most it's like 15 bucks a month or something like that and you're off and running, right? So how do you use these tools together as openly as possible to create shared knowledge? And then to make that shared knowledge, this is one of the other challenges, to make that shared knowledge as reusable from different tools and different perspectives as possible, right? So that if someone's coming in looking at it through Rome or through a wiki interface or something else, they can still access the data and navigate around it and maybe add things to it. And I'm like, at that point, there's a couple places here where all I've got is like wishful thinking and I can talk about what the thing could look like and I don't know what the state of the art is and how we move through that. So we need to focus on that and see who we can invite in to take a bite out of that. And if we can collectively fund a bigger project, maybe. And I'm sitting here thinking about little tiles and little projects, there's also the perspective of, hey, can we get a larger amount of money poured into the whole ecosystem so that we can actually attract, and this is part of our conversation yesterday and free Jerry's brain. It was like, hey, really, we kind of need, let's pretend a million dollars so that we can actually collect up the correct, critical mass of people to tackle these bigger problems. Yeah, I think a piece of our disagreement yesterday was about the scale of the work. Because there were different approaches about how do we do the minimal thing with just a few people versus how do we attract enough funding to do the bigger thing with more people? And large software projects are really hard to do. They're really complicated. And I'm clearly no large software project manager, but Marie Biarade used to run software teams at Qualcomm. So she's done that before and she's sort of in our community. She has been on a lot of calls, but I'm talking with her about project management stuff around weaving the web, weaving the world and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. And it occurred to me that a really nice logo or image for weaving the world would be an actual either wicker or yarn woven globe. Yeah. And if you see a photo of one of those, awesome. And maybe we commission an Etsy crafter to actually crochet a globe or something. I mean, I was like, ooh, that'd be really cool. One of the things that I was going to ask you is, and this would serve a dual function because it sort of would be like marketing the show even though the show hasn't happened yet. I was wondering if you'd want to put out a call for people to submit what they think would be like a great logo. It would give, you know, to give an opportunity for artists to contribute and it would be something we could talk about. And then to do the same thing with the musical intro. Absolutely. Yes and yes. I haven't put out a call yet. I have one really interesting conversation that turns out a colleague. I have a desk at Ziba, this little design firm. And one of the receptionists, it turns out, has an art degree and her background is in textile art. And she sent me a keynote presentation that she did kind of as part of her master's thesis. And the first image, the first cover image is of a beautiful piece of textile that has fringy edges. And then in the middle of it, she's got pencil drawn concept map because she's making connections between woven textiles and concept maps. And then I think she has an image of Indra's net sort of in the middle as well. And I'm like, I'm like, if you just recorded a voiceover over this presentation, we could talk for hours about that at OGM, you know. So we'll see, she may end up showing up with us but she also has to, she has desk duty during normal work hours. So yeah, so it sounds like, and I'm talking with her, she brought some of her work in. We haven't actually had a chance to look at it yet but I'm hoping to just take some photographs of some of her work and say, you know, this piece by Molina Bishop, but I think that it's completely on point for where we're heading. And funny enough, she's been thinking about these issues already on her own. She's coming at this and we discovered this because there were four of us in a car driving to a workshop. And I'm like, you know, oops, I spelled that wrong. Ah, yeah. Yeah, so those pieces are all happening, which is good, makes me excited. And we're starting, what we don't have yet is a larger sense of cooperation. I haven't announced this back to the broader OGM community. That's like kind of soon next. I sort of don't wanna promote the first couple of shows too much although I wanna make them really good because I'd like to make really good shows and then say, hey, we did this thing, come look at it. Yeah. Rather than fanfare and premiere and whatever else. It also sort of takes the pressure off of the premiere. I want us to be able to have some wiggle room, leeway, you know, navigational space to go wherever we go and be a little unusual in what we're doing. Sounds really good. But what's important because I had a look just before the call at the project plan and that would be nice if that got much more complete with a list of 47 possible first episodes. Well, there's a separate spreadsheet for episode ideas. You'll notice there's a link in the middle of the document that points to a spreadsheet which right now doesn't have a lot in it. It just has like fields. But the idea is to collect up ideas for episodes and sort of filter them through exactly. I apologize. I forgot where that is and how I find it. Sure, sure, sure. Let me share the link in here. Intrus outros, leaving the role project plan. Here is a link, hold on. It has to, my computer has to reload everything because I rebooted this morning because it was getting really slow and pokey last night. Come on, baby. There we go. That's interesting. Why does it not give me the usual? I'm not sure with people in groups. Well, let me just add. I think I'm finding all the email from, because I think we got like, I got an email invite, so I probably find it that way. Sort of, I just sent you, I just now added you to the document, the same way Hank has added to the document. But it didn't give me the usual dialogue of people with the link. Now I have it, okay, that's fine. But you should have access now. Okay, thank you. Uh-huh, good. And let me do screen share for a second. So Hank, right here where it says created a schedule spreadsheet. Yeah. That I think goes here, is this the schedule? Yeah, so here's the spreadsheet. And then Wendy Elford put like, Kyle Eggers in Who I Don't Know, so I need to go research this. But here like, the idea is to recommend episodes. And then as we actually choose them and start to execute on them, they would have a date and an episode number. Yeah, right. And I should put in here, Mila and Gio and Amber sort of as guests for an episode. We should pick a title, et cetera, et cetera. That should go in here as well. Yeah, and Stacey's idea about the connecting of the weaving loops together, that I thought that was a powerful idea as well. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Cool. Weaving the weavers or something like that. Yes, 11 weavers weaving. So interesting, all of this. And just, it's funny because there's so many people trying to figure out how to fix the world and all that. And some piece of all this that we're not tending to, we're building it, but we're not tending to it very much in OGM is trust and rebuilding trust. And there's a really important piece of the OGM thesis that says that, hey, forget all this technical mappy stuff. What really matters here is being, finding a safe space for a conversation with somebody who thinks very differently from you. Yeah. And that's on the radar, but it's not really in our work yet. And I have a feeling that we actually need to work with very friendly, very allied people first to get a rhythm to figure out what this is more. But then we need to go talk to people who aren't like us very much and figure out what that means. And one of the videos I watched last night was a video, I think it was a news hour report or from somewhere that was interviewing white evangelicals who have discovered that if they examine their Bible and start thinking about what it means to actually act in that way that it's just not, it doesn't fit what's happening right now with the evangelical conservative right. And so they're switching their votes, they're dropping away from the party line of the evangelical Christians, which is to back Trump until like everybody jumps off the cliff together. It's just really, really interesting to me to hear that and to sort of model it. And I'm not in conversation with those people, but it reminds me, this may be a bad analogy but it's very similar actually. Mali Melching helped reduce the rate of female genital mutilation in West Africa by going to Imams in villages and pointing out to them that FGM is actually not in the Quran. And she's like, you know, it's actually not a practice in the Quran. And as you and as we know, as we agree the Quran is the guidebook for everything. So what if you backed off and said, we don't need to do this. And if the Imam sanctions it, then young women who haven't had the procedure done are marriageable. And if he doesn't, he doesn't, they aren't, right? You could try other workarounds but mostly the workarounds mean leaving town. You know, if you go to a new environment, maybe then you can have a different context where there's different practices, but that was working within the constraints of religion very vividly to hack the system and change a really brutal practice. So those are, I think those are conversations out ahead in our future someplace. And I'm likely not the best person to, I don't know. I have lots of skepticisms about Christianity and all of that, that I'm way too happy to voice but probably aren't good for starting, for starter conversations about those kinds of things. I think we need somebody who's just better informed than I about it all and can walk into those places and hold safe conversations. But some of my heroes are people like Darryl Davis, who is the jazz pianist who has a garage full of KKK robes because he listened with respect to people who wanted to kill him. Oh, oh yeah. Yeah, I'll find him in my brain so you've got the right spelling, but here's Darryl Davis. He's under jazz pianists, contrarians who make sense, bridging the cultural divide. And his question, which is lovely is, how can you hate me when you don't even know me? Yeah. And there's a bunch of, sorry, go ahead, Stacy. I just wanted to ask you. So you have, he's under contrarians who make sense. Yeah. Do you have other contrarians that make sense? OMG, Stacy. This is like my most important thought in my brain. And I'm sharing that link with you now, excuse me, in the chat. Okay, I saw that, okay. Yeah, so contrarians who make or made sense is one of the big light bulbs that went off in my head over the last 20 years. And what I realized at some point was, gosh, I've got all these like heroes, like Hans Mondermann, the guy who did traffic calming in the Netherlands. He's a hero of mine. Alice Miller who invented, who helped invent family systems therapy and the repetition compulsion and enlightened witnesses and all that kind of stuff. She's one of my heroes. And if you look through the list, like there's 30, 40 of them or something like that. Yeah. And it dawned on me when John Taylor Gatto and Christopher Alexander and a bunch of others. And it dawned on me one day that these people were all saying the same thing about their own discipline. And they were saying, Hey, in my discipline, we lost faith in humans. And then that means we went in and we built these control structures to try to control everybody's behavior. And in transportation and urban planning, that means traffic lights and then our radar gun on the traffic light and then a camera on the radar gun that automatically sends you a ticket at home. Like every time it doesn't work, we turn the volume up to 11 or 12, right? Instead of Mondermann says, no, no, no, you actually need to remove all those weird affordances and let people make eye contact as humans again at the intersection. And then they don't kill each other. And the throughput is as good as the highway, but you have to do thoughtful redesign of all of these institutions. And that's where design from trust comes from. So my idea is about design from trust, which I've got a lot of. If you go here and read the posts and watch the videos, all of that comes from my contrarians. And so when I'm saying we should redesign the world from trust, this is not wishful thinking. This is pointing to a bunch of people who've already been doing this. Don't call it this. Don't know that they have this all in common, right? But here we are. So one of my heroes is Buck Braneman, the horse whisperer. And because animal gentling is actually designed from trust. Yeah, you're joining up with this creature, this beautiful creature without breaking it. Like we break horses, right? We break your will so that they'll serve us. In fact, this is joining up so that we can be in service together and go do stuff. And you can get, and it's really interesting when you do advanced equitage. So the reason Melina and I were in a car recently was that Zeba sent a bunch of Zebites over to a woman who does horse training, horse leadership training nearby, half an hour out of Portland. And one of the really interesting things she said is that to do some of the advanced equitage, you must join up with the horse. You can't force a horse to do some of these moves. You've got to be on the side of the horse. The horse has to be on your side. Because some of these steps are really complicated and it's like not going to happen in some coercive way. And I was like, oh, damn. And then there's just all sorts of interesting lessons from that field. So for me, my contrarians are really important because in some of them are talking about how to rethink policing and justice, restorative justice, all those kinds of things are designed from trust, right? And that's the book I haven't written yet that I would like to write collaboratively in this space as part of Weaving the World. So for me, that's a huge topic area to explore, actually. And I'm realizing maybe I should make that more explicit up front. Yeah, what would you tell me the title of that imaginary book or collaborative book? Well, so a design from trust is the topic. The book title that I need to finish is called What If We Trusted You? Which is the name of my TEDx talk, right? And I think that would be a fine and dandy title. It's a nice umbrella for all of this. It implies that we don't trust you, which is kind of true, right? It's a kind of a leading question. It implies on the one hand that we don't trust you and we haven't been trusting you. And then you're like, well, what does that mean? And I can tell you, I can tell you domain by domain by domain by domain. And then the question also opens up this positive prospect. Hank, this is my positive cartography of, hey, what would happen if we trusted you? How would you rethink or redesign everything? Yep. Right? And so I'm really interested in sort of collaboratively authoring that book as more than a book. But I think one of the artifacts to spin out of it is a book. And Stacey, I think you've been on a call and Hank maybe also where I described how books are playlists. Yeah, yeah. So for me, a blog is a playlist, a presentation, a PowerPoint presentation is a playlist, a book is a playlist. And a book is a playlist of chapters and also conceptually any chapter is a playlist of paragraphs, for example, right? And so one of the reasons I love what Pete is doing with Massive Wiki and Markdown is that the Markdown file winds up being this really nice primitive element that you can assemble into playlists. And it's really, really easy to write a script, same as the scripts that I'm asking Pete to write to automate production of the podcast, but you can write a script that then fetches this exact sequence of nuggets, string them together in this way, meaning put page numbers on each page, put a chapter headings that look like this, add this theme or style to it, so they're pretty, use this font, et cetera. And then at the end, add an ISBN number and spit this out in a Kindle ePub format. We could do that, right? But the reason for me to do it as a playlist, one of the benefits, this isn't just an abstract exercise, one of the benefits of thinking of a book as a playlist is that my chapter three could be your chapter eight. Yeah. And you could include it in time. And if I made the rights so that you could include it and I would be like, yes, please, as opposed to no, I'm going to sue you, which is the default setting. But if I publish this work so that you could rework it, then you could create your narrative that happens to agree only on chapter eight, right? Which is one of those juicy nuggets we agree we love together, but you could tell a completely different story using that same chapter or three chapters. I don't care, you know, use your imagination, but once we start posting nuggets that are weavable into narratives, then we can, I'm interested in three years from now, OGM and other communities publishing 30 books simultaneously. Yeah. So intellectually, I think that we can all agree on that. And I think where we come into, where the problem is, is actually behaving that way in those unconscious behaviors. That's why I'm always so interested. What I've really wanted to see happen is a social setting where games are played to teach that. Like just, for example, you know, we're always thinking about collective sense make. I'm just using this as an example because I was talking to somebody about it yesterday. And I was like, all right. So if we each came up with a list, just a list of 10 things we learned from people, just 10 things that stand out. So like one of mine was when you're walking on ice, don't walk with your hands in your pockets, because if you fall, you won't be able to catch yourself. Another one, if you're driving in, you're gonna make a left to cross a highway, don't turn your wheel until you're ready to move. Because if somebody bumps you from behind, you're dead. So I used to joke, because those were two things my dad taught me. But then there were other little things. And as I was telling my friend, she was like, yeah, that would be really fun. Because I want to hear your 10 things. Hank, I want to hear your 10 things. And after you get to the first four, then some inner work starts happening. Because then you got to really go in and like, what are the little things that I never, I never realized we're such a big deal that become a big deal. And it reminds you of people that you've met along the way. It might have just been a stranger at a supermarket. And that, again, I'm saying a social setting because you see in all of these calls will come sometimes to do work and we go, we default to the social part, which means there's a need for it and a desire for it. And instead of saying, no, we can't do this, we have to get to work. Let's use it because it's a good, I don't know, my friend pointed out to me that these are all group building activities. And I'm like, yeah, I guess that's kind of what I'm about or what I'd like to do or be part of or where I feel like to contribute. So yes, yes, yes, and yes. And I just went to life advice in my brain which is where I collect up all these tips for living well. Here's a post by Leo Babara, 12 essential rules to live more like a Zen monk, it's Zen habits, which is his blog. It's under enumerated wisdom because it's 12, it's got a number, but it's under life advice where it's next to all these other things, right? And so when I find something like what you just described, I added here. So I have, and this is a scroll bar. So we're just at the beginning of, this is A through F, right, of this list. So I've got a whole mess of this that I keep that is kind of accessible but not accessible because if you knew of the existence of this thought, you could browse around at your heart's content and you could read the articles, you could do whatever else, but nobody knows this exists, right? But here's what I'm getting at. The only people that care about what the ordinary person has to say, not somebody that has a book or a podcast, are people that are gonna take their information and use it. They're extracting it from them, not for their own good. I'm looking for a situation where people are giving the ordinary person an opportunity to contribute and that person contributing is getting something back. It's not that info isn't being taken to be used against them, it's helping them to connect and to feel, I thought about it. And I was like, you know, I've had people say, what can I do to help you? And for me, just as a person, the best thing you could do to make me feel comfortable in a room is ask me a question that you really care about my answer. That's for me, for somebody else, that is not what they want at all. Right, cause they don't want the spotlight or something. Whatever reason, but there might come a time when they do want it, so always leave that door open. But again, looking for contribution because that's the dynamics that I think made Facebook successful. Yeah, agreed. And the other thing I wanted to add to what you were just saying was, I'm not really good at game design and gamification is a word that makes me cringe a little bit. So I am very interested in how to make and play as a word I adore. That's the word I mean to use by the way I was just gonna type that. Okay, okay. And so turning this into play and maybe creating several different kinds of frames of play with ideas would be a brilliant thing to do in weaving the world. Yay, that's a good one. And so maybe you can be sort of like a game master-ish. Well, let's try and help me say play because I really do mean play and I wanna get back to that. Thank you. And just for me, and this is only my biases the word play is much easier to hear than game. Absolutely. And being playful and having a play master or somebody who says, okay, okay, this is how we'll organize ourselves for this next piece of play is brilliant. And if we can do that and lather and repeat and like digest the world into more usable insights from people who are having fun doing so then we're on our way. And that's contagious. And that's, I think that's the goal is to make a playful sharing of wisdom contagious. Well, something that I think would be playful that I think we could try it out on any call is to take a transcript of the call and everybody hone in on like one thing that was of particular interest. We don't have to act on it, but just look at it and see if any of us picked the same things and then maybe form three groups of whichever and approach it from there. So like even when you were talking about the podcast I was thinking it might be playful and I don't want to make it sound competitive because it's not. So it's more like a mission with maybe more than one track. If everybody wants to do it the same way, then fine. But if somebody has a different angle maybe have the opportunity to play together and create three different versions of a podcast. Yeah, so one easy way to fold this into the current plan because we're going to have episodes and then we're going to post process the episodes is part of the setup for the post is, hey, go look at the transcript, reflect on the call and pick the two or three of your favorite nuggets that happened during the call. And then we sort people into breakouts depending on which nugget. And then we let them lose with whatever tools or whatever means they want to just discuss to weave to do whatever with those. And then we're sort of dividing and conquering a little bit too. I'm also wondering if it may not be worthwhile to have a short prequel just to get some more input onto what people really want to know. That's true. That's very true. And that could well be part of our rhythm because I know that the standard format like Jim Rutt in prep for his show with Dunbar had clearly read the book Friends, had a lot of background on Dunbar and they were able to do a good traditional interview because of that, right? There was a lot of ground to go into and occasionally during the podcast you'd like and Jim Rutt would say, oh, and you talk a lot about the seven principles of friendship and whatever, let's go there. And then you talk about how relationships end let's end with that. So he's just sort of mapping it to this new book and Dunbar is doing publicity tour for his book. So he's on board and Rutt is a really good interviewer. So differently from that, we could sort of crowdsource what we're interested in and what like for this upcoming call that we're framing what's the background? And then for me, what I do is I sort of prepare the ground in my brain, right? Because by the time the call starts I've already got some assumptions and some things woven together and potentially even also the questions to ask could easily be in my brain, right? Did you read the comment that I wrote back to you regarding Kevin's project? I think so, I'm pretty sure I read it. I'm forgetting what you said. I was talking about the benefit of sometimes not knowing too much about a subject in that if we're creating something that we're actually gonna watch which I'm hoping we create something that we're excited to watch because if we wanna watch it, then we know it's good. And again, it's a community. And I was thinking that that type of thing could be a way to play because then we can kind of together source the what it is we already know who the people are that are doing similar things like a pre kind of information gathering so that we're all doing it together. It's sort of like book you wanna collaborate on except we'd be trying out those processes with podcasts. Exactly, exactly. Cool. We've run over our time. This has been really fruitful. Anything we wanna add to where we are? I think most of what was said in the last half an hour is really terrific. And let's see what we can make actionable. I took two of the ideas that we more or less all three thought were cool and added them to the Excel sheet. But in my own notes that I take based on what's in the chat, I saw so many links to other work that I'm doing. And I could imagine any of those suggestions, 10 things you learn from other people, one great idea from every other weaving community, nuggets from any particular call and discussing them in smaller groups are ways to vary these weekly calls which might inspire even more people in OGM to take part in it. And I'm always wondering if you think that in, I'm not in the Thursday calls or the flotilla calls, but in the Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday calls, it's a group of about 20 people. And on the lists of OGM, there's a group of another 20 people active, not too much intersection, but there must be really lots of people in OGM who are bored satirists with their normal Zoom work and are looking to feed themselves or get terrific new inspirations from people they don't know, but respect because they're also an OGM. So I think that'd be great stuff to do in the next couple of weeks. So if I could just add to that, because now I feel like I can share, one of the ideas that I've had is something, I don't know if it's called Common Play or Play School, but it's sort of creating this framework where we have Weaving the World and all those episodes and all the people that have their books out, they could be responsible for a block of time and other people that if I wanna just have a social group talking about the 10 things or just having all these blocks of time like a network that's been the dream since 2015. So again, but like I said, Common Play, it has to be playin' it and to play school. And we're not, so the last thing I will say regards the power dynamics. Many people want to teach others what they know and they've forgotten the joy that they had about learning. So I want to bring back where we're learning together and discovering together, because that is the joy, not telling other people what we've learned. Thank you, Stacy. Totally agree. Totally agree. Okay, it feels like lots of good stuff and a good point to pause. This was nice. Yeah, thank you. Thank you very, very much. I hope that asteroid does not kill you, Hank. It's sort of an art-person passing by. Nice, it'll just make a loud noise, that's all. Yeah, and perhaps a nice light show and we're all like a nice light show. Exactly, sweet. Tomorrow. Thank you very much. Yeah, and see you tomorrow. Bye-bye. Bye.