 all the participants to come back to the room, take your seats, so we can start. We're about to start the session, so those who can and others can sneak in later, I guess. We are also waiting for Bélin, Martinez. I think they are there. Welcome back, everyone. Let's start this session. We will now get to discuss some of the report's findings, together with democracy strongholds from key EU institutions and civil society, as you see on the panel. This panel will flesh out the four key recommendations of the report and break their heads as well around some overarching questions at stake for global democracy. It will be a hybrid panel and it will be in the good hands of moderator Sam van der Staak, who is director of the Euro program at International Idea and in lead of International Idea's representation to the EU. Sam has been the initiative taker and the driving force behind what we call the Swedish presidency project in all its stages and including the dialogues and consultations which led to the recommendations that are presented today. So thank you, Sam, for taking up the button and starting your session. Thank you very much, Marilyn. Good morning, everyone. Thank you for being here in such great numbers. My name is Sam van der Staak as Marilyn already mentioned and in this session, this first panel session, we'll be discussing the report findings, the findings that were presented just before the coffee break, the four main ones that were highlighted and we're going to talk about the new challenges and priorities for EU's external democracy action. So what does this report imply for those new challenges that we see in this rapidly shifting world and I think all the speakers of the opening panel mentioned it this morning, we live in turbulent times. The Zeit and Wende as the German Chancellor called it, this rapid change of affairs that really has woken us up into a new world where democracy seems to be one of the fault lines. And what does that mean for EU action? That's what we're going to discuss. And we have a few excellent panelists. We have Thomas Tobé, a member of the European Parliament and chair of the DEVIC Committee. We have Belen Martinez-Carbonell, managing director for global affairs of the European external action service. We have Mathieu Bousquet, acting director of the director general for neighborhood and enlargement negotiations. So the part of the commission that deals with the immediate neighborhood of the EU. We have Misha Ramakas, deputy head of unit of the INPA of the European Commission dealing with the rest of the world. And then last but not least, we have Dr. Janjira Sombat-Punsiri online. Yes, we have her behind me here. Of the Institute of Asian Studies of Chula Longkorn University and the German Institute for Global and Area Studies. And Janjira is one of the civil society experts that we've consulted during the process of trying to bring this report together. So a warm welcome to all these speakers who really represent all sides of the EU and of civil society that together have provided the input for this report. And I think that collective approach reflects what again all the speakers this morning said of we have to do this together. If we want to really revitalize democracy we have to do it in a collective approach. So no better way to discuss the report itself than by looking at all the different elements of the EU and what everybody has to offer. Now we will listen to all speakers for around five minutes with some brief opening statements and then we'll have a moderated discussion. And in their interventions we've asked all the speakers to focus on three questions. First in this new world where we see competing models clashing. How will the EU try to promote democracy? How does it see its role? Two, the outcomes of the report, the recommendations of the report. Do they resonate to face the challenges in this rapidly changing world? And three, how do we foster within the EU the political will to make these changes? Given that there's so many other priorities that the EU is trying to confront. Trade related, security related, migration related, you name it. And we have to balance all of that with democracy. So those three questions we'll zoom into a little bit more. So let's get started with the first panelist Thomas Tobayor, what he mentioned, member of the European Parliament, chair of the David committee in his first mandate. But before that Thomas was a member of the Riksdag, the Swedish parliament for many, many years, 13 years, if I'm not mistaken. And in that position he held many important offices including chair of the Committee on Justice, Committee on Education and the Committee on the Labor Markets. So a long political career and of course not just a member of the European Parliament but also a representative of Sweden which is extra important given the Swedish presidency. So without any further ado, Thomas, the floor is yours. Thank you and I'm delighted to be here today and that is of course because for me democracy is really of course close to my heart and of course to all of us in this room and I think it is, I mean, it has been stated many times. I mean of course now we see a declining trend for democracy and governance from a global perspective and I think it is important to really understand what this is because this is at least speaking as a politician, this is a political fight and it is a political fight that we cannot afford to lose because if we lose this, of course it is in our own interest, I mean we are in a way representing democratic states but it will affect us, it will affect of course people in many countries that will have the lack of democracy and rule of law in the life but of course it will also hurt us. I think this is something that we need now to understand that we cannot just have nice seminars and nice words about this, we really have to start acting now. Of course I welcome that the Swedish presidency now have this as a key priority, of course it is good that we can work with the midterm review of the EU action plan on human rights and democracy, of course that we should focus on combating corruption. Generally speaking I must also say and a big thank you to Idea for also inviting me and also making this report. Generally I think that this report is a really good one. I have read many reports during my life and I think actually this report actually pushes thing a bit further down the road and hopefully this discussion can bring some new ideas as well. I think it's quite useful for me, I would say in of course my role as chairman of the DEWE committee. I'm also co-sharing the democracy support and election coordination group, DEG, some of you might know what it is but I also think that is important for the European Parliament. If I ought to do some personal reflections then, I think the first point that I would like to make is yes, I think that EU we are slowly slowly realizing that we must improve our external democracy action and that is of course good. One example is of course about the commission has launched with the global gateway strategy that is of course clearly an attempt to offer what we will call a value-based option for our partner countries and I think that I mean there's a lot of things that you can say about global gateway and of course as European Parliament we want of course to see that we actually will also deliver to all the obligations that have already been made but with that said and politically and to this discussion I think this is the right way to go. I think that we have to do this because of course we do see that we have competing models that offer something to our partner countries and of course we need to understand that we have to show our partner countries why democracy is a better model for governance which actually also can achieve results and in that sense I will also say that I think global gateway can be helpful and it is something that we need to work on more. Secondly I think it is clear finally that EU development policy has become part now of the how should I put it wider political landscape. I remember when we were negotiating the different positions in the European Parliament and I was newly elected and I looked at the different committees and of course I looked at the Dewey Committee and it's a quite small committee in the European Parliament but for me and during this mandate it's been very clear that even if it is a very small committee everybody understands now it is an important committee because many of the challenges that politicians need to rise up to it also comes back now to development cooperation and I think that is quite interesting to see. We have a lot of attention these days from others that perhaps didn't pay that much attention to the work that we do in the Dewey Committee and I think this is something that we should get used to of course we need to find different ways to organize ourselves in the future perhaps to even better have a more holistic approach when it comes to of course obtaining some of our foreign policy EU goals that we have but of course also when it comes to development that we want to see in our partner countries because it basically means that we need to understand better how to use the full range of the toolbox that we have in hand. One example and that is also one of the recommendations from the report is how we can use of course better trade policy negotiations and to be clear that means that we cannot continue to shy away from using systematically political conditionality when democratic principles it is at stands. I think that is one of the key conclusions and of course that is very easy to say but I also think that we need now to actually start doing that. I think that there is no other way for us to go. The Council's negotiating mandate on the revised GSP regulation I think is positive in these regards I mean that basically means extends negative conditionality to try to prevent but I think that is also something that we can keep doing. We have from the DEVRA committee we have recently attributed an opinion to AFET on the functioning of EIS where we do reiterate that we think that assistance should be suspended if we have the event of degradation in democracy for example. Thirdly I would like to state that I do think it is important that we try to maintain a political will for making democracy central in EU external policy and here I come to the point of also the external democracy support because I think if you don't have the foundation of democracy and rule of law and human rights it's very hard for my colleagues also in INTA or in Envy or in Liben to be successful and I think that also needs to be understood that this is the basis where we have to work. I mean we have some lessons to learn also with our work within our union we should not focus on that today but it is clear that if we don't have the foundations protected then of course we will run into other problems as well and of course it is in EU's interest to ensure that our partner countries embrace democratic governance and I don't think once again that we can lose sight of this in Brussels. So I am very pleased to see that this is a priority of course from the Swedish presidency. I think that these recommendations are very helpful. If I ought to sum up because perhaps my time is running out I would sum it up then to firstly we need now to find a way to show our partner countries the real benefits of democratic governance. That is the first one that we need to do. Secondly we need to of course figure out how to respond to third countries that are moving in the wrong direction. We can take some lessons that we perhaps saw in the UN vote on this awful war that we are experienced where we could see some of our partners countries for example abstaining in the UN vote. Of course on the one hand we cannot just let that go I would say. I think it is important that it means that we will have a reaction but of course we have to find a way and a pragmatic way on how we should actually work with that because in the end we are interested in the end result. And lastly of course we need to position ourselves better than countries like China and Russia because it is a competitive landscape. My experience when I have traveled to partner countries and I will not name them but let me say that one of the lessons when I have sat down with political leaders I would say for most of our African friends they do want to work with the European Union. They see Europe as the neighbor and of course sometimes they feel that Europe is too much demanding. That's true we are demanding and I think we should be demanding but of course they want to find a way also to not have the only options sometimes to choose China or to choose Russia. And I think that we have all the opportunities ahead of us of course a lot of challenges but I think we are on the right track now we are slowly waking up trying to understand this now and now it's time to draw some political lessons. Thank you. Thank you. Now Thomas a quick follow-up question before we move on because I think you basically highlighted two of the recommendations one is the narrative you ended with that can we show that democracy delivers can we show our African partners that there's something really to be gained and two is your point on infusing democracy in other policies such as the global gateway and introducing a form of conditionality. Now that second point we've been mulling this over when we wrote the report and sometimes we got the question yeah but then how do you deal with some of the hard issues of getting an energy deal through in a time when energy is scarce or how do you deal with migration crises if you have to act quickly and you happen to have a non-democratic leader that you need to deal with what would be your answer to that how do you you know make sure that democracy stands as strong vis-a-vis all those other priorities. Well there is of course no no easy no easy answer to that but I think it is for our partner countries it is not strange if Europe goes take further steps down to work with more conditionality and that we are more frank with what we also expect from our partner countries if if we also at the same time truly are interested in listening to their demands and really try to understand where they are politically speaking because of course there is difference also between the countries and that means and I'm not saying this only because I'm a swede but I do believe in the pragmatic approach you can have very strong principles but of course you can also find pragmatic solutions but of course there will come more cases I would say in the future where we will perhaps have to choose even harder and then I'm more leaning to the to the way that we have to stand up for these values because there is no one else who will know. Of course when it comes to the narrative and showing of course that our model can be more effective I think it sometimes of course for us it's very easy to start of course where where our heart is and about the principles and of course we shouldn't shy away from that but perhaps sometimes also it is very clear to explain that if you want to have long-term investments from the private sector and if you want them to really trust that they can be in your country for a long time but then this is a better model for you. I think sometimes you have to be as simple as that in trying to promote our model better. Excellent be principled but also pragmatic I think that's that's the guiding line. A very political answer I must say. I don't think so but let's continue to the next speaker Belen Martinez Carbonell I mentioned already is the managing director for global affairs at the European external action service has been there for quite a long time but before joining the election the election external action service I mean she worked in the cabinet of different commissioners commissioner for external relations and the commissioner for trade so as a wide background in EU matters and Belen the floor is yours okay and when it okay thanks does it work yeah okay no you know good voilà thanks a lot it's good to have an MEP to show you how to work the mics no thanks a lot to idea thanks a lot to the judicial government and to other speakers that will be with me this morning for organizing this event thank mostly for the report I think it's very good that we are being told by a more independent and neutral reader so what we're doing better what we're doing worse because we are not always good as self-criticism so it's good that some people help us look ourselves in the mirror and I'm not going to talk too long because a lot what I would be saying this morning will be very much on the same line with Eamon Gilmore has said already for one reason which is that we work very much closely together and we obviously share the priorities and the principles these being said the succession of amped incident crisis in the last years have reminded us all of the value of the democracy how much we cherish it and how much it has been in backsliding in the light of internal and external threats a lot of us would immediately be thinking of Ukraine but there are other countries that come to my mind Iran being one for example which is really going from bad to worse and you know what could I say about Afghanistan and others when we're talking about conditionalities and you think of the poor women and girls but so the Swedish presidency comes at a right moment to provide an an important momentum for the work on protecting and strengthening democracy globally the way Sweden supported this policy already in 2019 and and reached the agreement on the text of the council conclusions on on democracy he has not been forgotten by by some of us and and they played an important role on on have the democracy priorities reflected on the action plan for human rights the EU as you know has a comprehensive approach to democracy and encompasses the promotion and protection of human rights rule of law and the empowerment of people that we try to translate into action but very actively promoting and protesting when there are there are there are violations of freedom of association expression media but also very factually and actively protecting human rights defenders gender equality and the empowerment of women and and youth we have a comprehension toolbox as you know because it's widely referred to in in the report and there are some good ideas there that we used to implement this comprehensive approach and the and the action plan on human rights and democracy is one very best example of how we tried to do this and probably one of the the most important element in our toolbox although not the only one so it's very timely that we discussed today the report of idea which as I said provides some nice recommendations interesting recommendations and we continue to witness the deepening grip of authoritarian regimes in their society and we believe that that's the time when democracies have to demonstrate their resilience and defend themselves again the narrative it is a word that is becoming very much and everybody's it's coming in much on everybody's mind it's not just about what you do but what people see that you do and how people explain what you do and therefore the narratives and and and besides talking about it we have to be determined in our actions to to to show and demonstrate that democracy is as others have said this morning the system that best delivers and you know a very much used example is the case of china and covet and I think that you know when two options were put on the table about which system will deliver first many at the very beginning of the outbreak were turning their heads to to some authoritarian regimes that were were promoting the successful of their strategies but at the end of the day there may be a bit slower but more democratic policies that were put forward in the european union with more distributed and socially fair systems have provided have become much more successful in finding the right balance and so to me that's if anyone has a doubt that's an example of democracy showing results with numbers and numbers of people alive and people unfortunately deceased the EU obviously has an unambiguous commitment to defend international rules based order upholding international law including human rights and international humanitarian law working together should always be our automatic response and and democracy is first and foremost about pursuant together as european union the defense and protection of of democracy the russian wolf aggression and a lot has been said this morning unfortunately about this horrible war has underlined yet again how interconnected we are and and and maybe if if if I may react to them to the reference earlier today about what to do with those countries that have not support us at them and the votes the famous votes of list of votes in the general assembly the way we've been trying to to respond to that is not as a list of where your friends were your enemies who you blacklist for the rest of their lives but rather as a signal of the countries where we are failing in promoting democracy and making them understand the importance of for us and the gravity of these russian aggression so the way we have been trying to to read those lists and those votes is give us a signal of the areas where we should possibly engage more which is why we've we've reacted in such a reaching out way to the first negative votes of india for example we understood clearly that india was in a difficult position and a democratic system which is under a lot of of of threat as well and we have since reached out and tried to cooperate closer with a country like india but we also aware that we need to address our own internal challenges we discussed the reference this morning to the humility we we need to be also telling the world that we understand we are not perfect and it is for this reason that the president von der leyen has announced in the state of the union her intention to put forward this defense of democracy package and that is one of the priorities that will guide us and these these these year in the recent years we have also been developing innovative initiatives to address many of the challenges that democracy is facing today there are new challenges to democracy such as those that many speakers have referred to the promoting democracy in a digital day in a digital world and and mainstreaming digital issues across all policies human rights democracy even you know ownership of companies it's it's it's part of these new technologies that we need to learn to live with and to make sure that they support democracy and they don't open new avenues for vulnerabilities we have many internal initiatives to build on and i think europe can again be setting standards like the digital service acts the code of conduct on hated speech or the work on countering for interference and disinformation and against these are good examples of what europe could do could do better but unfortunately it's not just in europe but in also countries that we thought to be consolidated democracies that have been suffering the consequence of the manipulation of digital media an example that comes to our minds is the attacks on the us capitals or the tax to to the government institutions in brazil is not by coincidence that these hatred was organized towards the congress towards the parliament because they represent probably what democracy stands for and is what these those forces are precisely fighting against so we will continue to work in in these areas we'll continue to support independent media human rights defenders among which domestic election observers are very close to our heart and the priorities of what we do but collectively to achieve results it's very crucial that we team up that we team up as europe but also that we team up with civil society and this morning there were references to inclusivity something that we totally totally approach finally in the context of increasing pressures on fundamental rights civic and political rights the you will continue to promote inclusive and representative decision making and at the liver the liberative and participative model of governments and related to these we welcome a key recommendation of the report which is to continue placing a strong focus on women and youth participation in civic and political processes the worst that can happen to our societies is that young people disengaged from democratic processes and a concrete example of the work that has been done within this framework of the summit for democracy is the cohort on youth political and civic engagement led by the commission to whom commissioner upalina referred this morning together with nepal and and gana this cohort is a motivated example of the work we can do together as europe and together with countries around the world with nepal and gana in this in this regard and therefore i put it out as a good example to be followed in the future i'll stop here happy to take questions and thanks again to to id and to sweden for organizing this well and a quick follow-up question because you did indeed mention there's a whole lot of things that go into that democracy package you know human rights and rule of law and anti-corruption and elections what for you stands out as one priority that you would say the EU has to do a little bit better where it's also most credible and you know you've referred to digital for instance is there one thing where you think we need to really put a bit extra effort there are a lot of things we need to put an extra effort but i think part of what we need to put an extra effort is both on digital and climate we're putting out models that we think are good for the world but we need to explain the world why these models are good for them listen to their feedback and then help them to integrate it into their policies and to address the consequences that these may have question digital and climate that's what i heard you say so we'll keep that in mind thank you very much Belen we'll now move to the third speaker macho buskat macho acting director of diginear dealing with the neighborhood of the EU and of course that's where democracy has come in stark focus over the past year with the war in ukraine macho the department that he leads focuses on thematic support coordination of policy and financial instruments so that includes democracy human rights and all the thematic issues that the EU finds important in its immediate neighborhood so i'll hand over to you for your intervention macho thank you thank you very much and good morning everybody thank you first i mean to idea and to the swedish presidency i mean idea for the report very good report indeed and i focus my interventions on some of the recommendations that you made on how we can try to implement them and of course thank you to the to the swedish presidency for the focus of this issue i think we all talked about it but it is unprecedented times and challenges that we are facing i mean with the unprovoked Russian aggression against Ukraine which we are dealing with i mean in my digi on the daily basis of course but also with the worldwide consequences of balance aid so for the report presents a very i would say timely recommendations and i'm going to try to to focus a little bit on them so to start with one of your first recommendation is to develop a new narrative on democracy to be presented as a universal aspiration i fully subscribe to that i think it's important that we develop a new narrative which can help overcome the ideas that democracy is only a western product that we try to export or as some opponents would say and we hear that when we go in the neighboring countries that we're trying to impose so we need to promote the flourishing of democratic culture within the societies at the right pace of course prudence is of the essence but we need to demonstrate more robustly the value of democracy so that attitudes reflect this and they then gave a very good example democracy can deliver for its citizens and when you go in the neighborhood or in the enlargement and you discuss with population they very much see also joining the EU as joining this i mean joining a democracy that takes care of their citizens and that can bring results for them also clearly i mean the global researchers of otori tachyanism attacks on fundamental rights distortions brought about by corruption alternative narratives and disinformation remind us daily that even our own democracy cannot be taken for granted not to mention international peace and order and president van der leyen in his last state of the union address said we must protect democracies from the external threats they face and from the vices that corrode them from within so in such challenging times striving to promote freedoms and democratic processes foster fundamental rights and the rule of law fully agree with bedding that is exactly associated as well as sustaining civil society is more urgent than never so the EU holds his commitment to be a beacon for the global advancement of democracy but also for the rule of law and fundamental rights now coming to another recommendation to touch on the narrative to the need to preserve democracy at the pillar of use external relation let me use a little bit what we are doing in the enlargement process so we had a decision to open accession talks with albana and north macedonia to grant a candidate status to ukraine to moldova to bosnia and erzegovina to offer a european perspective to georgia also to set a target for visa liberalization for kosovo this has been all very decisive steps to bring neighbors closer and these steps also empower the EU to promote crucial reforms for the benefits of citizens in this context democracy in all its dimensions is finding reinvigorated prominence the revised enlargement methodology from 2020 puts what we call the fundamental cluster which is rule of law economic criteria and public administration reform at the heart of the accession process and the functioning of democratic institutions is a key part of these fundamentals and it has for the first time been incorporated into the negotiation making it a more visible part of our structure engagement with partner countries so a clear examples about how to embed our democracy and our democratic principles into our external policy internal policy the functioning of democratic institutions when we turn to ukraine the democratic past of ukraine has been a decades long fight not only to secure its independence but also to realize its aspiration to embrace the EU systems of values and institutions russia's war of aggression aims to undermine ukraine's efforts but it's just underlined even more the importance of us working relentlessly relentlessly to assist ukraine on its path towards being a fully sovereign democratic european country committed to european value and future EU membership so it's also very encouraging that ukraine is showing unprecedented unprecedented progress in the alignment of its legislation with the uaqi and the reform of institutions particularly in the areas of anti-corruption and justice but also anti-money laundering and media freedom so there is a lot of ground to cover and in some partners there is structural resistance to initiative openly aimed at democracy building and this is where we can use our toolbox and maybe use even more our toolbox as it is mentioned in the report as we've done in indigenea so we're trying to support hula flow and good governance programs that strengthen transparency and accountability of public institutions that do stabilize the justice systems and promote the prevention and fight against corruption where the space to support democratization is more limited it is still important to pursue actions around it with equal determination and ambition for example in 2023 we are relaunching our structured dialogue with civil society in the southern neighborhood there's a civil society facility the goal is to understand better the backsliding of democracy in certain contexts and then adapt policies and programs taking into account civil society recommendations due to shrinking space for the civil society we do not only use our human rights and civil society thematic programs but also we do work with organizations such as the european endowment for democracy that are able to support the unsupported and work with activists that are also on the front line of democracy promotion the other entry point is also provided by the work on inclusiveness on which we embark both across enlargement countries and broader neighborhood and here we have many programs and projects aimed at fostering greater participation of women youth people with disabilities and marginalized groups this of course includes our work on gender equality this brings me to another of your flagship messages which i once more very much appreciate working on youth pushing for equality easing integration of vulnerable groups are crucial investment that will hopefully bring societies closer to democratic stability through support on the ground and it was very refreshing i mean when we organized the eu for use event earlier in 2022 i mean to get all the feedback from young people from all over the region saying i mean what they are working on in their country and the support they're asking for us finally your report called for a more integrated approach in the promotion of democracy a holistic approach as our chair of the david committee just mentioned this is another point so establishing an integrated approach should also be much with increased attention paid to democracy promotion has been envisaged under the european democracy action plan the way we nurture and bolster our democracy foundations in the union and member states has an impact on the strengths of our external action i'm quoting the report the plan so we also note and we are very pleased to know that the EU is perceived as a key player for global democracy promotion at the same time we take note that the consultations indicated that EU is losing popularity for instance in the western Balkans or constituencies across the middle east and north Africa somehow lost faith in our ability to have more decisive impact than other geopolitical actors so certainly i mean the findings are very useful are going to help us trigger reflection on not only how to do better but also how to communicate better as as belanger said our outreach will be crucial so to succeed we need to be more robust to be more proactive and pursue meaningful actions to counter threats to democracy human rights and international peace thank you thank you very much much also for pointing out that democracy has already received a reinvigorated prominence as you called it within the work of degenere in the whole accession process so i think that's already a big step forward that we are seeing within the EU my question to you is when we did these consultations with civil society in the eastern partnership region a lot of points we we heard were you have to work with us but do so as equals and the examples we were given was you know Ukrainian tech developers they said we are doing stuff that is much more advanced than what we're seeing in some EU member states much more experience with things like cybersecurity or disinformation because they're a frontline state how would you respond to this request for greater partnership of equals how does degenere deal with that development i mean absolutely i mean this is a an equal partnership that we are trying to set up but i mean this is also where we need to communicate about that and to work also with with civil society and people i mean as you just said there are many examples of very good ways for example of working against corruption i mean of involving civil society on getting in the public administration reform getting the administration closer to the citizen than in the EU well i'm not sure in the EU we are always prepared to recognize that there are better examples elsewhere so this is also something where we have to listen we have to look and discuss with partner countries what they are doing that can be also of inspiration for us i mean of course the Ukrainian digital very are very skillful in terms of digital development but it's not only that i mean it's also about the way to nurture the democracy that we can find inspiration there and not preach what we are doing and sometimes are not doing so really finding a balanced partnership with them recognizing the good the good experience that is taking place there thank you thank you much let us move on to the next speaker Misha Ramakas the deputy head of unit of Digi INPA of the European Commission and Misha works at the unit he's the deputy head of the unit that deals with gender equality human rights and democratic governance so spot on on all the topics that we are discussing here today Misha the floor is yours thank you very much good morning everyone it's a pleasure to be here thanks also to idea for organizing this event and for the other speakers who have already covered a lot of ground is ah it's the other one okay hope you hear me better now i'm not going to start again so i'm going to try and keep it short but also set out a couple of issues and then engage a little bit with the recommendations that were made in the report i look through the recommendations i think they're very interesting very thought-provoking also there's sort of the lower level nitty gritty ones where there's a lot of you know titillating stuff that that really helps i think too for us to focus on where do we go next but before before doing that i would like to take you back actually three decades just to recall that supporting democracy is not and and the EU supporting democracy is not something new we've been doing this for a long time when i was a spring chicken and entering into EU land 30 years ago we were involved in setting up the european initiative for democracy and human rights we would in the couple of years later we set up the organization i worked for them set up the far democracy program in the tassis democracy program some of you may remember those there were programs to promote democracy civil society inclusiveness in central europe on the one hand with far and in the former soviet union with the tassis democracy program we can have a long discussion about you know is that successful 30 years with retrospect or not i would say in part yes in part no it's it's a you know a mixed score sheet undoubtedly but i think it shows that you know support to democracy to human rights to the rule of law are at the core of external relations EU external relations they're enshrined in the treaty and we've been acting on them for a long time they're also intertwined you can't do without one without the other i think the other bit of good news that we need to keep in mind is that the EU and the member states are actually together the main donors worldwide for democracy support we provide more than half of the financial support in that area that's not a reason to be so satisfied but it's a reality so these these are issues we can we can build on i would say maybe right now we have some momentum although it's a very strange period we've you know people have talked about this i won't i won't repeat everything you all know it we do have the the 75th anniversary of the universal declaration of human rights this year so maybe there is a good window here to reaffirm the universality of principles and rights as part of our action at the same time i think we need to engage on the new challenges that we face the geopolitical challenges some of them are manifest but also the other ones to the extent that they're separable climate change digitalization all of these increasingly young populations in the world etc so all of these call for new answers to possibly questions that have been around for a long time and also for learning lessons from the past i would say so that's the answer to the question how will the EU promote democracy it's been doing so and we need to also look forward to how we can do it better maybe to engage a little bit on the recommendations a couple of remarks the first one the you should build a new narrative on democracy while at the same time being humble and transparent that's squaring the circle in in my view it throws up all the dilemmas that you face in this particular context i think you may i mean on the ambition we've heard colleagues speak about that let me focus for a moment on the humility i think that's really important it means it says so in recommendations it means listening to partners it means dialogue it means openness it also means accepting diversity there's no one you know there's not a single solution for everything and no one has per se the best idea for everything the issue of conditionality certainly is one that's a tricky one from personal experience i worked i've been in development corporation for international partnerships for a very long time i worked in a number of countries that pose particular challenges in that regard i was posted in china at the start of my career where i was the in charge of the sector dealing with governance democracy civil society so all these issues that we are talking about here today at that point this isn't the early 90s we saw a window of opportunity that window has long gone so things change and and dynamics change i was pet of cooperation for the eu in afghanistan you know where we did apply conditionality and i can i have very vivid memories of that i remember sitting down with the vice president of afghanistan and the un undersecretary general with the un undersecretary general saying to the vice president but but vp there must be something you can deliver on these conditions it you know it throws up these dilemmas about being principled and pragmatic at the same time i was also based in yemen where we supported a failed democratic experiment so there are you know there are lessons to be what i'm trying to say is that there are lessons to be learned from these experiences and i think we need to go sometimes further in learning those lessons and why the very good intentions that we have didn't always materialize on the second recommendation using democracy as a guide in all external policies and policy coherence certainly i think we strive for that global gateway i think is a step forward in that sense it really is very much values based approach and it tries to bring together you know investment and promoting values and making sure that those values are actually part of the dynamic in in how we work of course we have the toolbox we have the human rights based approach that was adopted in 2021 could it be refined most likely yes we have conflict assessment analysis tools we have monitoring results frameworks so we have a whole range of tools that we can use not all of them possibly very sexy but actually quite useful to make sure that we take into account the various dimensions of how to ensure coherence in in our work on the recommendation to adopt an EU integrated approach to democracy support in external relations this focuses quite a lot on more guidelines sure but let's let's look at what we have first and see if we can fine-tune that rather than you know producing the next 500 page manual that people will then struggle with i would like to flag here that in the context of the team europe democracy initiative we do support quite a lot of research including with international idea i think that is very valuable and we really need to look there as well for the creation of new narratives so that's that's another strand of work then on gender and youth it's been mentioned before just like to recall that we've been investing quite heavily in these fields for the last few years and inclusive approaches it started mainly with a focus on women the gender action plans were now in the third generation and with every iteration of the gender action plan we see that things improve if you know i don't want to be too inward looking or dwell too much on statistics but if we look at how our own actions are now gender um gender sensitive or gender informed or put gender at the center of what we do that the you know the percentages are actually phenomenal they're really high and they exceed what we expected to achieve so that's that's good it's not the solution for everything but certainly good we now have the youth action plan and that and the involvement of youth in the summit for democracy so that's a major strand now as well and we were we're launching a new women and youth in democracy initiative of 40 million euro that will add another layer of dynamics in that regard so i'll stop there also to leave some time for a discussion with with people in the room thank you thank you misha now misha the million dollar question and a lot of speakers already based it you know we have to show the democracy delivers and your dge you know spends billions and billions on social economic uh progress on making sure that people get housing and schools and so how do we make sure that the link between the the work you do on democracy and all that other stuff you know all the social economic stuff that that is clear so that we can actually demonstrate that democracy delivers do you have the the magic bullet for that i was going to say we don't do a million dollar questions we only do a billion dollar questions but uh but yes uh i mean um without going to a lengthy explanation i think you could look at at what we try to do with global gateway right now to see how we try and pull all of that together global gateway people tend to think it's about you know digital or infrastructure or rows or or or you know transport corridors and stuff like that it's not just about hardware it includes the social dimension it includes health it includes education it includes empowerment of disenfranchised groups and it links it up with democratic values there are other ways of doing that more more historical examples would include i would say how we deal with budget support if you know without going into a very long detail technical explanation of how that works there is no budget support without adherence to basic values including human rights including democratic values governance values transparency uh and and those issues really are are there so i don't think i mean i'm in a thematic unit but we you know we work with the whole dg we don't separate out the two it's not some kind of niche reservation uh that we're in integrated approach uh going back to the terminology of the report thank you very much misha uh now on to the last speaker dr janjira some bud punzeri uh of the institute of asian studies at chula longkorn university and uh of the german institute for global and area studies she has a double hat janjira uh is an assistant professor she has a phd in politics and international relations and her area focus is the whole range of civic activism social movements digital activism and i've i've seen that in practice she is really one of the global experts on the digital and civic rights issue and she has importantly participated in many of our dialogues that put this report together so without any further ado janjira the floor is yours thank you so much sam um do you all hear me well good okay thank you um greetings from bankhawk um uh is a pity that i could not be there to participate in this very high level and um stimulating um panel today so um i i would like to first of all uh express my uh my thanks to the idea team who organized this very important event and also for inviting me here um i i i think that i i choose start by commending uh the great efforts uh the teammate uh putting together this really important report and i think it covers a wide range of issues crucial for strengthening democracy in the age of autocratization and great power competition and so um just to uh keep my um speech short and so we can leave some time for the audience and for q and a um i'd like to highlight two points um one is humility in relation to narrative um a lot of uh speakers in this panel and in the in the previous panel i have already touched upon um and the second part is um cohesion in relation to a geopolitical uh fat role so um number one i think the report um the most important um uh contribution of the report is to basically suggest that democracy should reinvent its narrative um in in the new world and and i think that is important because when we talk about the defense of democracy we basically uh talk about how we can support democratic legitimacy and what i mean by that is um a lot of speakers have mentioned democratic values and institutions how we can sustain this in the changing world and i think one of the most effective way to do this is to uh basically consolidate the legitimate basis um that would allow citizens themselves to uphold democratic values and institutions so in other words in order for us to defend democracy its values and institutions have to be seen by the constituents as legitimate and i think one of the ways to do this in the age of um democratic erosion and basically autocratic contestation is to show and i think a lot of speakers have already highlighted this point is to show that democracies can improve um people's livelihoods but now i'm sitting in in thailand in bankhawk i used to commune between berlin and bankhawk um and i think uh it is eye-opening to to come home and to see economic development in in in this region because people are struggling to uh make and meet and and i think what is happening in the world for them is only um in their interest when it impacts their um everyday economic lives and uh it's also interesting to be here during the election campaigns um because thailand is uh uh you know having an election possibly in may um the the discourse or the rhetoric about um strengthening democratic legitimacy in thailand is not so much about the values and the principles but in fact it's about how democracy can be related to welfare state to um basically a better social safety net for citizens that in that sense i think sweden uh comes up as as a good example uh when when i talk to ordinary ties about how they perceive europe um and democracy in the region usually they say well they have a good social system and they have a really strong social safety net for um their citizens and i think this is one of the strengths of democracy in europe that we sometimes tend to forget about it or not highlight that characteristic uh enough and i think this is what we um when we talk about reinventing uh democracy um this is what it means um the fact that over the past years um there's increasing uh incongruence between democracy and economic well-being of citizens um it also says a lot about how democracy has failed um in in some cases has failed its citizens um economically speaking i think um what we can say about democracy is that when it makes mistakes when its policies have not been successful democracies can reinvent itself democracies can be self-corrected and democracies can improve itself based on its mistakes actually better than autocracies uh look at china uh after its uh zero covid policies that actually damage uh is on the economy there is even no apology from the government there is uh uh uh no statement uh to basically admit that the policy is problematic and i think that in europe and and the west in general um this is not necessarily the case and i think this is one of the narrative that we have to highlight more that democracy can redeem itself and so the second point and i would be uh very very quick um i think uh we have talked a lot about uh how democracy uh fares in uh this new uh geopolitical world right or or the the renewal of your the all political competition i think that uh in asia quite interestingly when uh russia invaded ukraine i think a lot of some is asian nations um were quite shocked but as shocked as when the u.s. invaded iraq um and i think um that speaks to um policies international policies of uh uh democracies in the west over the past 10 years that um it has not been very coherent at some point democracies uh go to war and add the poise democracy uh want to defend countries from being in wednesday um and i think that uh in order this is to connect with my previous point in order for uh europe and for democracies to redeem their reputation that image in a changing world um policy coherence um in international conflict is very important and i think all eyes are watching europe right now uh how the region is going to deal with uh armed conflict in in in in this neighbor um and i think uh a lot of people here are praying that there will not be an escalation of the war because that would mean uh the future of the conflict between china and taiwan is also uh not looking very bright and i think i want to end uh my my first round contribution here i think that um the fact that uh we have this report the fact that we discussed here today that already speaks a lot about how democracy can actually survive and thrive in a new changing world thank you thank you very much janjira instead of me asking you a question i'm going to throw it open and see if there's any questions from the audience for janjira don't be shy or from the from the panelists okay think about a question for janjira i'm going to ask if there's any questions for the panelists otherwise i'm going to keep the discussion going but i want to see if there's any questions forget oh there we go there we go let's go here at the front row if you could say your name please and then ask your question and to whom please thank you uh peter buren i'm ambasador at large for human rights from slovakia and before in this position i was dealing with one of the uh most challenging regions of central asia uh where of course the democracy and human rights and also uh civil society uh are under pressure i have to say but starting um uh my kind of brief intervention and questions i would like to congratulate idea for an excellent uh report and i believe it should be considered and reflected in the preparation of the next action plan and also i wanted to thank uh sweden for bringing this agenda and putting it high uh on the agenda of the presidency here we are discussing external action of course primarily but i fully agree that we need to start from home to be a credible actor and player and i fully agree with thomas who mentioned that many times when we are discussing democracy and human rights uh even our leaders are not convinced that this should be the main priority and that's why we need to start the messaging uh and discussions with our leaders our political representations in both european parliament but in particular at home in parliaments but also we need to talk to private sector and convince private sector that it's actually worth thinking uh how private sector can uh support democracy in countries where our companies are investing and so on uh there's something i um thought that uh private sector should be also better represented in team democracy uh team europe democracy and i'm uh asking just the question how you see the role of private sector in this regard in particular not only promoting democracy and fighting corruption and so on but also sharing technologies and maybe stepping ahead of the use of innovative solutions and technologies through private sector activities and so on because here i see that the enemies of democracy are much faster in using even advanced technologies my question would be to all the panelists but in particular to misha how you see the first year of the work and activities of team uh team europe democracy um whether there are some really positive things but in particular where you see a greater space for improvements i i've heard from eman that in particular more space should be given to civil society not only in shaping policies but also in implementing um what we agreed uh my second question would be and i'm sorry for asking too many questions would be to belan um i i i fully agree that uh it's very important that the EU is engaged in the process started by summit for democracy and i see many good activities but coming from the focal group meeting uh in washington i still see that there are too many questions not answered about the future of summit for democracy beyond the second summit in washington and i believe uh EU should be coming with good ideas but i also wanted to once again comment idea coming with good ideas about the follow-up process we do not need too many summits but we need a very concrete implementations of our commitment so i will stop here and uh once again thank you for a great event and discussion and um i look forward to a follow-up of this ambassador uh actually counted three questions i'm gonna repeat them quickly first uh i guess to thomas how do we deal with our own leaders how do we make sure that our own leaders also see democracy as a priority your prime minister i don't think needs convincing because he mentioned democracy i counted i think it was eight times in the european parliament two weeks ago but still uh how do we deal with our own leaders second question is private sector uh misha i think this question was for you uh private sector's role in team europe democracy and thirdly uh what's the future of the summit for democracy bellen so uh thomas you want to start well uh thank you ambassador for raising that question and i i fully share your your view that of course we have to do our part ourselves in the union as well and of course we are in a very unfortunate situation in in many countries to be honest i mean we have the most obvious one that i would like to mention and of course it's always sensitive to name drop but of course we have huge problems in Hungary and in Poland and uh from the parliament from the parliament's positions of course our view is that if we if we let uh basically democracy decline even in our own member states if we let rule of law decline and we let this pass but then we have opened the door for everyone to do it and i think this is really what's at stake now and i understand that we have different positions on how to act but from the european parliament point of view i don't think there is a lot of maneuver to negotiate to be honest i mean i understand that we need um of course now in the in the discussion that we're having of course if we can see some progress of course then we can again uh discussion uh then we can again discuss of course that they can be part of the recovery plans i think also the article seven is something that we we shouldn't shy away from that's one part of it i think we need to be very very strong on this because i think we will um we for sure know that otherwise i mean i i can't see in another way to go and also i must say that it's becoming very clear that Viktor Orban is getting more and more alone uh as well and that is is very helpful secondly i think it is uh important that more uh and that comes to the leadership and i do i must say that of course i see it from the swedish presidency i must also say that i'm quite hopeful uh that we will see it uh for most of on the line as as well that we have to understand that democracy rule of law that is the foundation and i think that is really what it comes down to that can we see that leadership more clearly then we might be able to deliver and also we need to understand that within the council they will also have to take their responsibility we are talking now that we want to build a partnership with africa we are trying to get the signature for the post-continue agreement we're still not there and it's frankly it's embarrassing for europe we are talking that we want a new partnership we want to build a strong civil society we want to empower youth we want to empower women and we cannot deliver because we have one country uh blocking this in the council and that is not acceptable anymore thank you very much uh tomas then on to billon yes i agree that that is not acceptable is possibly the price to pay for the democratic processes of our institutions uh as as frustrating as it feels uh on the future of the summit for democracy i think it would be very arrogant for me to put an opinion on what the u.s. intends to do you've been there i learned through the very good reports of my staff but i understand that they have no intention at this stage to organize a third summit for democracy what i can say is that it would be um it is not currently foreseen that we organize on the u.s. summit for democracy and i wouldn't want to have our leaders deciding whose countries are invited as democracies which and are not which was part of the travel the u.s had to go through and in times when we are told to be um humble and engage it's not something i would recommend but i do think that we need to continue working that shouldn't prevent us from working and our priority besides the old engagement that we have with civil societies and others is in particular when the regular one when we will be discussing the next action plan to have a lot of good engagement with civil societies and different actors to make sure that it comes out with the full backing of the different stake stakeholders in a very democratic way including our member states hopefully yeah thanks okay thank you belan let's go on to misha on to team your democracy and if there's anything else you want to say about the summit which you've supported uh go ahead as well okay thank you and thank you peter for the very good uh pointed question there were actually two questions i think well how was the how would you evaluate the first year of the team europe democracy initiative and then the involvement of the private sector specifically so on the first aspect i would say very positive first of all there wasn't one a year ago there is now a lively initiative that involves 14 member states i'm not sure everyone in the room knows what the team europe initiative is but it's basically a platform for cooperation between the european institutions and the member states so it's it's joining up forces and resources to have a bigger impact on a specific issue we have them on a range of issues and one of them is specifically on you know furthering democracy so that's that's the team europe initiative on democracy as i said it involves 14 EU member states and european institutions around the number of central thematic priorities the rule of law and anti-corruption but also civic and political participation media and digital and we try to bring together a variety various communities of stakeholders to promote cooperation at an operational level so it's not only you know a theoretical discussion to increase the the effectiveness of our democracy assistance for the cso community specifically and and there may be people involved in in civil society organizations in the room we will be launching a call for interest expression of interest to participate in the ted cso network on the 15th of february so in two weeks from now and there's there are people here from the ted secretariat as well so you can you can get in touch with each other that's certainly one way for civil society organizations to get involved i mentioned also that it includes a research component so there's there's quite a lot of investment there we work with international idea with dpd with karnig a international rsf varieties of democracy and and and and those organizations on the private sector specifically we do want to engage although it's not an obvious issue for engaging with the private sector notably on the digital aspects where there is obviously a link and attention between democracy and and evolutions at this point in time we're looking into that it's not fully formulated but we are for example discussing with EU member states then marks the tech for democracy initiative and to see how we can link all of that up in the context of the team europe democracy team europe initiative so it's certainly not an issue that's forgotten it's it's work in progress but it's it's definitely on our on our screen thank you misha i'm looking at the other two speakers anything to add on these questions before we go back for a second round of questions mature maybe maybe more a general question about the private sector i mean their involvement is absolutely key i think the the type of governance which also works in the private sector is something which which is about democracy so working with private sector and i think a keyword which is important for me is really accountability so accountability in the democratic institutions but also accountability of the private sector so i think there can be some partnerships in addition to the digital innovation that the the private sector can can bring in i think even i mean working with with big companies or with small companies i mean the way we are supporting them the way we can work with them i mean to promote internal good good governance and to get the lessons from them also in terms of governance and cutability i think is a lesson very useful for us as well so so very happy and we are working with a private sector on that i think misha you had an after thought i had enough yet we all actually asked another question so which i didn't answer which was about the summit for democracy very briefly we we've actively supported the summit for democracy and we continue to do so you know in in in the past we focused very much on making sure that the process was inclusive that it included good civil society consultation and participation in the summit we also support very actively the the voice of youth we're involved in the so-called youth participation cohort especially working with youth from the south and we've partnered up with Ghana with Nepal and with the CSOs from Africa and Europe in that regard and we will also be taking that forward in the context of the of the forthcoming edition of the summit for democracy okay thank you let's go for one more round of questions because we have to round up at 12 30 and this is going to be difficult because i see a lot of hands let's hear from all four of you but really quickly and then i'm going to ask panelists to pick and choose until time is out so we start at the left go ahead and keep it really succinct please yes sure hi my name is Sandra Kaduri from Keeping Channels Open i just wanted to know sorry it's an internal democracy question what you're doing to shake people out of complacency i'm from UK let down by a democracy let down perhaps by the EU as well if you ask anyone what democracy is it means different things so can we see a back to basics campaign to get people to really care about what it is and and their responsibilities to each other the limits of freedom versus you know individual versus responsibility because i'm really worried what else might happen as people try to polarize us and separate us and work against the climate agenda and i'm let down by democracy so you know many of us have been yeah in the middle go ahead thank you very quickly claudio francavilla from numerous watch it was very important to hear from the guests from the screen i'm sorry i don't want to butcher the surname that the the narrative around the democracy is not only built by words but also by deeds by action and so the importance of the policy coherence and we have we have time and again raised out the double standards in the foreign policy can then undermine if you will even the credit credit okay can can undermine the the credibility sorry so it's important to have that reflection and it's important to stress out the being humble recommendation report does not mean being tolerant the report is very clear about being strong having some red lines conditionality more for more etc and i come to the question what can we learn from the accession procedure in the u which is if you will the dna of the u how it came about which had all the benchmarks in order to get to some point and the benchmarks are quite public quite clear how can we learn from that experience and maybe try to apply to trade deal to the gsp plus to have some public clear benchmarks for accountability for the governments linked to human rights and democracy unfortunately we have to end it there with questions apologies to the two other hands that were up but time is really taking i'm just going to push it back to the the panel and see if all the speakers want to take another 30 seconds to respond and let's do it in reverse order starting with janjira on screen janjira okay um thanks a lot for these really great questions um i think because for the benefit of time um i think to to conclude this panel um i think there's a lot of hope um in democracy still and i think in the digital age um there are a lot of things we can do um i think just to respond to um the gentleman's question about the role of private sector earlier um i think we have to think more about how automation can help us improve democratic governance um be it in relations to corruption policies be it in relation to job creations uh giving opportunities to the marginalized communities right so um the use of ai automation are not always um to undermine uh human's future but also to hit enhance it and i think uh the private sector in europe uh has been um at the forefront of this and i think it's crucial for the EU to engage with uh regional private sector and i think last but not least um absolutely uh policy coherence is key and i think that's why i have highlighted that um the one of a few ways in which um democracies can do better than autocracies it is to be self-reflective and to be accountable for its own uh floor sometimes and i think that sense of uh reflection is is key to democracy thank you janjira uh michael uh which question am i trying to answer at this stage i'm not sure um i just maybe to say that uh what i think what is is very clear from the discussion is that um you know finding a way forward in a very complex and increasingly fractured world uh requires uh you know a process of iterative thinking and experimentation i think and i think you know with what we've got um speaking from my own uh organization on the table with global gateway with the team europe initiatives and other innovative ways of working that we are we're really trying to see how we can in fact uh renew the narrative and not only the narrative but also the ways of doing and increasing the coherence are we there is it perfect probably not uh but definitely uh there's you know a renewed uh sense of urgency uh and and a willingness to invest in these issues thank you much here go ahead thank you may make two points also to respond to the questions i mean of course i mean with the accession pro process we have a specific number of benchmarks but i think the idea is also and and uh thomas tobey was talking about the conditionality i mean it's to discuss with partner countries and to jointly agree uh together about a way forward i mean to consolidate a number of elements related to democracy or related to something else and you can see the value added of getting some clear indicators on benchmarks i mean which uh which is very much i mean an agreed process and and this is our more value i mean in terms of humidity this is not e you dictating i mean what are the benchmarks but it's very much i mean through the policy discussion with the partner countries i mean agreeing on some steps that can be made in one direction and maybe to respond to to the first comment on the the democracy i mean really to have um to have it in practice just to give you an example i mean i went to to georgia some some uh two years ago and we discussed with a local action group in georgia uh so really community based uh processes and basically what we propose there is to support their development using the leader approach that we use in europe so basically that the committee should organize itself facilitated by civil society organization and define objectives for them to move forward and the reaction was quite interesting from them they said of course i mean we are in a country where we have europe on one side and russia on the other side and they say what everybody i mean the let's say the russian influence people were saying you have an agenda i mean what is it you are going to be taken and and the people working through this process of creating a local action group i mean to move on defined targets which are self defined targets they just say i mean we were surprised to see that europe had no agenda except to foster democracy in the country so that was fascinating i mean to get that from the people in our neighboring countries with our support we can make a difference i hope this responds to your question thank you much uh well i'm just very very briefly i mean to the broader question of what else can we do and democracy has let me down uh i see two two tracks that are really a priority for us first working with youth because there will be the voters and the ones that will need to work and defend the democracy when we might be too old to do it and secondly everything that has to do with this information and the narrative because that's the easiest way to manipulate and i give you a quick example last week there was some poll made in belgium that came out that said half of the belgium population prefer an authoritarian regime i'm not sure what was the question how was that presented but i'm very convinced that people that responded that prefer an authoritarian regime weren't well informed about them the consequences of what they were saying so just to show that even here we have a problem i'll stop there thank you uh finally thomas well i think what is also within those questions that is racist basically what are we i mean what are europe and and for me of course we are a continent where a lot of member states we have come together because we want peace at our company company our continent yes we have some shared interest some challenges some opportunities but the basic questions do we have some common values or not and for me it's very clear that yes we do and that means that if that if you are of the opinion that in europe we do believe in human rights the protection of minorities rule of law on democracy well then we have to fight for it we'll have to fight for it within our union and we have to fight for it in the world and and the only way to do that is of course to win the hearts of people that's what we try to do in democracy people have the right to make their own choice thank you thank you very much uh thomas i think we've had a great discussion indeed the eu has done a lot since 30 years back as micha said but i think from all the interventions we also learned there's a lot more to do uh and importantly there's a lot of willingness to do more with humility with cohesion but with those two principles there's a lot more to put in that toolbox that the that the eu already has so with that i'd like to finish it and i'll hand back to maryland for the practical details thank you to thomas tobey belan martinez carbonelle matthieu busquette michel ramaques and janjira sombat poonsiri a warm round of applause thank you again thank you again sam and speaker it was an excellent panel uh we're very happy with that uh you summarized interventions already uh wisely into takeaway sam and we keep some good follow-ups uh for the team from that it is great to see how little seats are being planted and picked up by people who are really shaping eu's democracy policy so the extra good news i can share is that uh there's a lunch break coming up uh sandwiches are served in the patio where we were for the coffee break so let's convene back in this room at uh 25 past one so we can start in time with the afternoon schedule thank you