 Hello, ladies and gentlemen, it's a great pleasure for me to chair this session on energy and environment. We've had a lot today with a very insightful session and for me it's a great pleasure to welcome very knowledgeable people in this panel and I will immediately start with Mr. Hapeur. The floor is yours. Okay, thank you. I will, so you will, would you present, would you put your, my presentation, my slides? Okay, yeah. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is clearly a wake-up call. Geopolitics is a key dimension in the energy sector. I would like to quote André Giraud, former minister of industry during the second oil shock in France. You used to say oil is a resource with huge diplomatic and defense dimension with a fiscal content and marginally a calorific value. The same applies also for natural gas, so in my short presentation I will first develop the main dimensions of the geopolitics of the energy sector and then I'll come back to the decisive turning point of February 24th and then I will highlight the ongoing tensions on oil and gas sector. Geopolitics has always been a key dimension of the oil sector. This is due to the concern of security of supply. The unequal distribution of oil and gas reserves you can see on this slide is an important concern and on this map the size of each country is related to the importance of its oil reserves and this slide illustrates clearly the geological anomaly of the Middle East. The same applies to natural gas. Two third of gas reserves are located between the fifth and the seventieth meridians, specifically Russia, Iran or Qatar. However these slides do not include non-conventional resources. The revolution of non-conventional hydrocarbons is a major game changer for geopolitics. Today the United States are the first producers of oil and petroleum products in the world. In 2020 they became independent for their energy supply for the first time since 1952. This game changer has a major impact on geopolitics. For example in 2020 Barack Obama highlighted that the country regains an important latitude in their diplomacy thanks to their energy autonomy. The Ukrainian conflict is a clear example of this return of geopolitics. Thanks to their renewed energy independence the U.S. were claiming leadership on the world energy market and also on the supply of Europe. The Russia the first gas exporter is threatening on the other side the energy weapon which has been made afterwards. The political situation of the Middle East is always unstable. The election of Joe Biden confirmed the disengagement of the U.S. in the Middle East. China and Russia take this opportunity to increase their influence on the region. The wars in Libya, Syria, Yemen are not yet solved and the withdrawal of the U.S. of the GCPOA with Iran is creating further uncertainties. This unstable situation is a real threat for the energy sector due to the importance of the resources of energy in this region. China is a key player in the world economy. These slides shows the share of China in the growth of some industrial and energy indicators since 1978. More than 80 percent of the growth of coal or steel demand worldwide, 60 percent of carbon emissions. As the largest energy consumer and CO2 emitter in the world, China is key with rising geopolitical tensions as a major stumbling block. As the energy supply is the Achilles Neal Hill of its economy, China is developing a dynamic diplomacy around the world Middle East, Russia, Africa. We should not ignore the geopolitical challenges linked with the energy transition and I will be very short due to the excellent discussion during the president session. Renewable energy is requiring growing resource of critical raw material. Access and prices of many resources is a challenge such as cobalt, copper, rare airs. And you can see on this slide the main producers of critical raw material. China has a clear leadership on critical raw material as it is shown on this slide. China has also a quasi monopolistic position on certain technologies such as solar panel and batteries. So the invasion of Ukraine by Russia on the 24th of February is a decisive turning point. This dramatic event has a major impact on the energy scene. I just remind you that Russia is a key player on the energy market. It represents 6.4 percent of oil reserves, 17.3 percent of gas reserves, third producer of oil and first exporter of natural gas. Europe was heavily relying on Russian energy supplies, 20 percent, 26 percent of European oil imports, 46 percent of gas and 60 percent of coal. On vice versa, Russian economy was relying on energy export to Europe. Total energy export of Russia represents 25 percent of its gross domestic product and 57 percent of its export. And for the last 20 years, this mutual dependence was a win-win solution. It's over now. Ukraine invasion impacted immediately the gas market both in Europe and Asia. Volatility and prices increased dramatically. The same happened for oil and electricity. Most European countries reacted in order to mitigate the impact to the final consumer. Rapidly, the European Union to embargo measures on coal and oil. We may question the real impact of these measures on Russian economy. Both coal and oil market are deep and Russia has been able to redirect its export. For example, India increased by a factor of 10 its imports of oil from Russia. However, the situation is clearly different for natural gas. So, clearly, in the near future, we may anticipate geopolitical tension of the oil and gas market. The oil market will be faced to a growing tension. It is due to lack of investment in exploration production, which has been reduced by a factor of two since 2014. At the same time, the oil demand continues to grow. It will not be possible to compensate the natural depletion of existing field, which is estimated at about 6 percent per annum without investment. For example, for the next 10 years, the IAEA estimates that the production of new fields to be developed amounts to 20 to 30 million barrels per day for a total market of 100 million bodies per day. The oil market will be stretched as we experienced 15 years ago. At the same time, the market has been rebalanced at that time. The market has been rebalanced thanks to the dramatic growth of non-conventional oil in the U.S. However, it will not be surely the case in the future. There are significant uncertainties, both technical and economical, for the development of non-conventional oil in the U.S. The IAEA, for example, the American Institute of Energy, estimates that the U.S. production will reach a plateau in 2030 and then starts to decline. This situation will clearly increase the power of OPEC Plus on the market. On April the 12th of 2020, reacting to the COVID crisis, OPEC Plus decided to reduce its production quotas by 9.7 million barrels per day for a total market of 100 million barrels per day. Afterwards, it decided to increase slowly its production, keeping a clear grasp on the market. On October the 5th, this year, OPEC Plus decided again to reduce their quota by 2 million barrels per day. This renewed control of the market is a major geopolitical game changer and a major threat for the consumers. The natural gas market is tightening. This is a challenge for Europe, which is relying heavily on Russian supplies. LNG is a unique alternative. For the last six months, LNG imports jumped to 40 percent. At the same time, the share of Russian gas supplies to Europe dropped from 40 percent to 10 percent. But there are many bottlenecks. The Equifaction, LNG cures, regasification plans. For this winter, the gas storage are almost full, but we may question the situation for the next winters. In fact, the liquefaction capacity is stretched all around the world. New liquefaction plants are under construction in Qatar, the US, or Australia, but they will not come to the market before 2025-2026. In a nutshell, the geopolitics is an escapable challenge of the energy sector for the next years to come. It is clearly urgent to integrate this dimension on the energy policies to be put in place all around the world. Thank you very much, Olivier. I just want to mention that Olivier is a Chairman of France Brevet, Scientific Advisor of the Center for Energy and Climate of Yves-Rey and former President of the French Energy Council. Maybe some questions in the room for Olivier at this stage. If you are one. Yes, please. Hello, Nicolas Pure from Tilt Capital, an energy transition investor. Do you see potentially an issue with also the piling up of, say, the perfect storm with the financing? Because today, I think in the US, 60% of gov-like loans and high-yield bonds are structured against the unconventional oil and gas market, and it's a market that has been structurally deficit in terms of cash flows. Do you see that as a potential additional risk in the oil and gas market for future supplies? Clearly, there is an evolution of the financial industry towards the investment of oil and gas. There is an increasing reluctance of the financial institution and the banks and the lenders to lend to the for exploration and production of the oil and gas. There is a specific dimension in the US with non-conventional hydrocarbons because the in the past, I would say five or ten years ago, they just invest. Now they are not investing as it was in the past. They are taking into account the profitability of these investments. And there has been in the past a huge failure of many, many companies. And now in the US, they are very cautious. That's why in the evaluation of the Energy Information Agency of the US, they don't anticipate an important increase of non-conventional oil supply. There will be perhaps a peak. It will increase some way, but there will be a plateau. It's not the case specifically for natural gas because for natural gas, it's easier and also there is the outcome of LNG of the world market. The world is requiring more and more natural gas. But there is no investment. I would say the international oil companies now they are investing mostly I would say for total 50% of the investment are in oil and gas and 50% in the transition economy. Thank you Olivier. Other question from the person? Yes, please Mr. Schellmann. You spoke about liquefaction bottleneck. Isn't it a regazification bottleneck in Europe? Clearly it's a regazification bottleneck. You remember on the slide I presented with Putin and Trump at that time. Putin was asking to Germany to invest in a regazification. They were strongly opposed to any such investments. They decided recently to buy a new regazification. But it's not sufficient. That's why there is this agreement between France and Germany. France is delivering natural gas from the energy, the LNG regazification plant in France and by this Germany is bringing the electricity from coal, unfortunately. But there are also bottlenecks in liquefaction because there are some new plants coming on stream in the U.S. In Qatar there will be a strong increase of production but it will not come before 2025. That's why in Europe we have been able, we will be able to pass the winter. But I'm not sure. Thanks to all the natural gas liquid which is available on the market, it's no more the case. All the supply which could have been kept have been kept. And I'm afraid that we will have the next two winters will be very difficult for Europe. We will come back to the discussion. I want now to turn to you, Mr. Narenda Tagenjna, chairman of the Independent Energy Policy Institute of New Delhi, founder, president of the World Energy Policy Summit. Please, the floor is yours. Thanks, chair, for the opportunity. And since the theme of, we are focusing in this conference more on global governance and that's precisely what I'm trying to do in the context of energy, of course. You see, until very recently, if you go by statements coming from top leaders in the OECD countries, most particularly in the United States, and they always used to say that energy policy and climate policy are two sides of the same coin. The big statement by Mr. John Kerry when he was Secretary of State of the Munich Security Conference, and I was sitting in the fifth row, and I was very happy and I made a big note of it, and I repeated that at least in 20 conferences. But now we don't hear it anymore. Now they say the look, climate is different and energy is different, or they just go silent on it. You see, when you look at the climate, like COP summits and other platforms under the UN and all that, we by now have created a kind of a global governance structures and some infrastructure, and some rules. So there is a kind of global governance emerging as far as the climate is concerned. But the way we look at it from Asia, we are sitting in Asia by the way, majority of you are from different mostly OECD countries, but Abu Dhabi is in Asia as you know, and I have come from, this is Delhi, which is just three hours away from here by air. And now we see that when it comes to energy, even to talk about building some kind of governance is unacceptable. I have proposed it in five different conferences, last 12 months, in Western Europe, they don't even want to listen to you. Who are you? What are you talking? And that's very unhealthy. If, and I strongly believe in this, energy policy, energy security, climate policy, climate security are two sides of the same coin. If we're rejected, we are compromising with our future. I mean the OECD countries or the so called global north is very happy to build that kind of thing for climate. But for energy, no. The most optimistic people within the global north, if you talk about building such an order, they say, oh, we have got international energy agency. But I say, haven't you read the constitution of the international energy? India and China can't be members. And there are many within IEA. Some of you may disagree. They don't want India and China to be kind of full-fledged members. IEA has a different DNA with all due respect. So now you see the problem we face when we look at, at the same time, when you look at the global GDP, energy occupies huge space. In India, for instance, when you look at the energy sector is roughly 23% of India's GDP of 3.5 trillion on nominal basis. And if you go PPPB basis, India's economy is roughly 8.6 trillion dollar. Oil and gas alone is about 15%. And we are heavily dependent, like in India, on imports. 86% of oil we import, 60% gas we import, nuclear uranium we import and solar. We are emerging as a major solar power, solar energy power, but 90% equipment are important, mostly from China. So therefore, you know, I mean, we keep talking about, and I personally am always pushing for it, that we need to build some kind of global energy governance. Yes, there is OPEC. OPEC is a cartel. IEA, yes, it takes care of the OECD's country's interest. And there are a few others for renewables and international energy forum and so forth. But the point is that, you know, unless and until we agree, now the biggest challenge today is that majority of people, majority of OECD countries are not open to have even a discussion on this issue. How can you build a kind of sustainable climate global governance without building a sustainable energy global governance order? How can you do that? I don't really see it happening on a sustainable basis. You can build it, but then you will face challenges. And we are already facing these challenges, you know, since the Ukraine war. Now, the point I'm trying to drive home is that look at, for instance, the present crisis. There is no global governance for energy. There is no organization for that. And we don't even have very institutionalized platforms or global, you know, kind of, you know, conversation on this issue. Ukraine war happens and you look at the reaction of, for instance, Europe. The immediate first reaction of Europe is that they have started building, my friend may not agree with me, but building kind of energy fortress for Europe. Concern is Europe. Build a fortress. Go to Canada with a huge delegation, the German Chancellor, go to Saudi Arabia, go to Qatar. A ship that LNG ship that was going to empower is Bangladesh was only 200 miles away from LNG import terminals in Bangladesh, was rivaled to Germany. What are we talking about then? And you think that we can build a sustainable, you know, global climate governance? How? And you think you build an energy fortress for Europe and you'll be fine? And if India buy a few drops or more oil from Russia, you spend half of your energy just, you know, taking India to task, not mentioning China even once, which imports much more, or Europe. What India has imported the last five months, six months from Russia, you know, what Europe has imported from Russia the last eight months, it will take us five years to import that kind of quantity. But silence, because we are global north. We are rich. Don't question us. Forgetting one thing. If you look at data, look at statistics, look at honest studies, the global energy gravity center has already moved to Asia, is no longer in the Atlantic. Just go by data. Look at the, where the majority of consumers. So what is this approach? You don't, can't even have conversation on this. When I come to conferences, especially in Europe, I find that you are sitting in an echo chamber. They're very happy if you are kind of talking, they're happy talking to each other. But if you bring in the truth or the reality with cold statistics, you face China walls or you're just ignored, sometimes even ignored by the moderator. Can't we have honest conversation? Don't you want to prepare for the new world that is emerging, a new kind of global governance order that is emerging, a new energy order which has started emerging. This energy order that we have got was actually came into being in the early 1970s. It's the first time it has been challenged seriously. Now the point is all I'm trying to say is that we need to kind of have conversation. Just building a European, a fortress for Europe is not going to help because it's not sustainable. Depriving poor Bangladesh because you want to buy more gas and store it, store it by the way. And you feel you're going to be secure forever. What is this mindset? What is this mindset? So these are the questions we need to ask, put on the table. And we won't need to have conversation. No point sitting in echo chamber talking to yourself that if we can protect Europe and America, even net of Secretary General Mr. Stoltenberg, a couple of months ago, I listened to his press conference, CNN, he is Secretary General of NATO. With all due respect to him and I happened to know him personally because I've spent many years of my life in Norway. I knew him, I knew even his father. Now he mentioned energy security record nine times in a press conference of 35 minutes, NATO Secretary General. And there were people in the room in one of the conferences I was recently, they say we need to build energy netto, energy netto. Now what are we talking about? Are we kind of planned to push the 6 billion people or 6.7 billion people who live in the global south to some other planet? How do we go there? It's not happening. All that we can do is to have, you know, honest conversation and build our kind of energy future in such a way that we can do it. Let me come to energy transition. What is energy transition? What is so new about it? Energy transition has been happening for 200 years. In India we used to run, you know, we are a railways country, we used to run trains, actually we use wood as a fire for the steam engine. Then came coal, then came electricity. Now we are even thinking and looking at using wherever we can, for instance, LNG. What we are basically need to look at is energy transitions, transitions. I mean, depend on your situation, your ground reality, your circumstances, in Germany they may do it faster. Good luck to them. In Norway they may do it even faster. Very good luck to them. But in India and some other economies it may take longer. It may take longer. It may take 30 years. It may take 40 years. I mean, even Germany, they created an energy model and they talked about it globally. They sponsored so many conferences all around the world. Here is the German energy model. What happened to that? Where is that? Has it gone on holiday? Now those are the questions we need to ask. Look at the energy narratives that you see around the world. Global energy narratives, whether on climate or on energy. Where these narratives are A, constructed. Where? And then if you are a smaller economy, then push down, throw your throat. You have to accept them. We saw in Paris climate summit, there were 60 countries against something, a resolution. Overnight they all started supporting. We know what happened that night. Now the point I am trying to derive whom is that when it comes to building global narratives for climate, for energy, this has to be, the whole process needs to be democratized. This process monopolized by the global north. Yes, you have great think tanks. Yes, you have great people. Yes, you have many private concertencies also. They can do that. They can write better. The English is better. The grammar is better. The German may be better and so and so forth. But aren't we kind of share the same planet? Can't we have more consultations? Can't we help developing countries, some of those who are which countries are not like as big as India, China, develop this capacity, this capability and then capacity so that we can have a more democratic kind of process to build this global narrative. You build narratives. You control CNN. You control BBC. You control what is the German channel called BFL or something, you know, whatever. So now the point is that, you know, and then is disseminated globally. We kind of, we need to democratize it. If you, the whole process, climate and energy are two, if you ask me today the biggest challenges for the humankind, we need to, we need to democratize the whole process. And at the same time, you know, we need to, the time has come. My sense is the time has come when, whether you're global north or global south, where you're very rich or very poor, somebody who is very rich can become very pure in 50 years from now. India can become a 32 billion dollar economy in 30 years, according to PWC, not me and so and so forth. But the point is these things keep changing. Those who are, those of you who are familiar with history would know that from 180 to 1826, India and China were the biggest economies on the planet. India and China together accounted for 53% of global GDP. It changed, you know, after India became a colony of Britain and so and so forth. Now, and this may change again. Who knows in 30 years maybe sooner. Now, the point here is that we need to kind of sit together, build these narratives together. And also the last point I want to kind of put on the table is that, you know, we have got global intergovernmental organizations for everything, health and education and you name it, trade and whatnot and whatnot, which is great. We need that. Now, we are also building this kind of, you know, framework and infrastructure for climate, which is superb. We need it. But how can we leave energy, which is the most important part of the whole story out of it? Why there is no intergovernmental organization, global organization dedicated to energy so that if there was some crisis, let's say post Ukraine, we could have a kind of like Energy Security Council or something like that and discuss this issue so that Europe didn't have to build a fortress at the cost of Bangladesh, poor Bangladesh. Now, my point is that why can't we have a global, I put this on the table for discussion and also that north or south, global north or global south, we need to kind of, you know, have conversation and create, build a new organization with all due respect to IEA. And new organization, which is intergovernmental, truly global, you know, dedicated to energy and preferably, preferably headquartered in a country or in a area or in a geography, which is now the new gravity center of the global economy. I just put it on the table. And I'm just having, I'm speaking from my heart. I was carrying some notes. I've ignored my notes and I know that I'm in a minority in most places, but we are meeting in Asia. This is the new gravity center. And so I've been extremely honest if you agree with it is fine, but if you don't, at least I have put it on the table and I feel happy about it. Thanks for your attention. Thank you very much for your insightful comments. I would like to hear you or do you have some reactions or questions? Yes, please, sir. Thank you for your perspective on the global south and the need for global governance. I would like to say that the COP's meeting are a dialogue for all countries and there's been an immense failure when you think that since we have COP meetings, we have broken CO2 concentration in the atmosphere records every year. So if I may suggest that before we think of dialogues and governance and everything else, we should think of innovation. And what is the South's part in new innovation for energy? That is the key. My experience is that I reached out to the BABA Research Institute for Nuclear Energy in India and they told me that they cannot work with private enterprise. You have to be a public enterprise. That's the only country where I have that problem. So I put it back to you. If you want the global south to be part of the solution, you have to change the way things work for innovation, not just for dialogues, more innovation. And I think India has immense resources, intellectual resources. It's proven all around the world, but the structure of policymaking in India is a problem for innovation in many ways, especially about energy and in particular about nuclear energy, which is part of the solution. Very quickly, you see, first of all, I was talking the whole world. I was not thinking only of India when I spoke, but coming to your point, yes, I agree with you on innovation across global south and also across global north. I deal with both. I spent nine years of my life in Europe, very familiar with global north, travel all the time. Yes, BABA Atomic Center, you said they might have this thing, but there are lots of other institutions. There are lots of other private sector companies now venturing into into nuclear power. And so there are many others. If you want, I can give you a few references. But this particular institute might have its own policy is the oldest one, by the way, is the oldest one. It was created at the time when you know, I mean, India was there. Many countries basically would object every time we do something in the space of energy, even for peaceful purposes. So it's a legacy institute you're referring to, legacy center. So it might have its own old mindset, but BABA Atomic Center is not the only place in India. You're talking of an ocean. India is an ocean. What you talked about is this very, very tiny little island somewhere. Yes, but I agree with you that even that island needs to change. I will convey this thing to the to the to the concerned minister at least. Thank you, sir. Friedberg, you want to say something? Friedberg Fruger from Germany. I think he was exactly right. I I agree very much with what Narendra said. Okay, so I think Narendra did very well. Let me explain why I believe this. Looking to the United States and we haven't discussed this so far, they came up with the so-called IRA, Inflation Reduction Act, 370 billion they put into climate neutral technologies, subsidize them, and that will lead to a situation that all those technological innovations, be they nuclear or CCS in every case, will be sucked off by the United States. We see that already when it comes to e-fuels to hydrogen that projects that have been designated for other parts of the world now go to the United States because this is such a huge program. And I would really share this fear of a fortress Europe. LNG was discussed. Yes, my country has a lot to do with the problems that we have right now because we saw the reliance on Russian gas and we didn't do anything against it. Why didn't we do this? Because it was in the interest of our economy. It was the only way, by the way, that the German energy intensive industry could survive because U.S. LNG, LNG from other parts of the world was much too expensive. We would not have been able to keep competitiveness. But nevertheless, we believe that we are responsible for large parts of that situation. And now what we do, and that is double standards and I fully agree, we suck all the LNG in the world market because we can pay better than the Bangladeshis, than the Egyptians. So all the LNG that is out there comes back to Europe. What happens? Those countries go back to coal. That's bad for climate and it's bad for international relations because exactly that feeling amounts. And if we then go to Sham el Sheikh as Germans or Europeans, Mr. Timmermans, EU Vice President, and teaches other countries and say, well, you should do better on the climate front. While we just have pushed them again back to coal, is absolutely unacceptable. And therefore, I have full understanding for this, in my point of view, wrong approach to take out climate and believe we could do every year more ambitious goals, better ambitious goals for every sector and not see what that means for the energy world in the whole. So I fully applaud with you and we should really think of building an institution which combines climate and energy. One could not have said that better than you. Thank you very much. And I would add, Friedberg has a way to include the private sector in the dialogue. Otherwise, we see that it doesn't work. I will now leave the floor to Florent Andrillon, who is a global head of sustainability services at Capgemini Invent. The floor is yours. Thank you. If you can put my presentation. Actually, I'm happy because I'm fully aligned with what you say on climate and energy being two sides of the same coin. And we probably have a lot of that offside from the very recent time. And the race we are is clearly, we know race against time. Time is clearly the essence in which we need to move on. So I'll try to give an overview of what we said and do that quickly, because a lot of have already been said. The context of this transition is that we are moving from crisis to crisis. That has been said. We are in a poly crisis world and we had a COVID pandemic two years ago, which transformed into a drop of GDP in energy demand. And for the first time, a reduction of GIG emission. And then the rebound, which translated as well into a price and increasing price of energy. So the government started to, at least in Europe, try to protect their consumer. And then we are now in the crisis driven by the war of Ukraine. And while the beginning of the year was a positive in GDP, we see that we are probably entering in more trouble time for next year. And GIG emission will probably not decrease this year, but continue to increase this slide is a bit wrong. So it's not the right version, but whatever I'll do with that one. And in the meantime, and I think it was said very, very rightly by the UN Secretary General during the last COP, we are on a high weight well. And we have our foot on the accelerator. I think that positioned the matter very, very well. We see that even though everybody is talking in the cops and agreeing on carbon emission that we need to reduce, actually we are not, because we are not considering this side of the coin anymore. We are rushing into the energy crisis, the energy safety in Europe. So we clearly are not on the wrong path. And all the commitments show that. And what we need to do again, and it's a matter of time, is to get up to speed on climate change in all its dimension. My friend Ellen Clarkson from the Climate Group puts it saying our biggest threat is climate delayism, putting climate topics further away on the road and focusing on energy safety. Well, what we probably would need to do is what we successfully, what the world successfully did during COVID, which is the operation warp speed, how do we put all our energy on climate change and on deployment of the technology which are already there and on the accelerating the innovation of technology which exists all around the world, including low tech, because low tech is also a good way and you get innovation is probably something also which we should dig into more to save the energy and reduce our energy consumption. And just one word, because while we focus a lot on carbon emission and net zero goals, we forget planetary boundaries. You said it right, we are on the same planet and we focus a lot on carbon. Well, we should also focus on all the other dimension of what was widely put by the Poddam Institute and the planetary boundaries, including social justice. So COP 15 started very recently this weekend and hopefully we will move from focus only on carbon to focus on the other dimension. So very quickly what happened is that suddenly the threat of lack of power led us to a panic in Europe at least due to the increase of prices and led us to behaviors which are probably very egoist I'd say of the different government and even in Europe we see that it's becoming a very complex topic in terms of governance. What also has probably changed a bit is that the overturn window for those of you who are familiar with that concept has probably shifted a bit and is leaving a bit more acceptance on the term which was in the past not accepted which is sobriety at least in some countries not everywhere and energy sobriety suddenly becoming something that is at least accepted to be discussed which was not the case. So how do we suddenly move on to saying we need to save energy and not increase energy? So it's not only energy efficiency because energy efficiency is continued to do more with less it's preserving energy which is a different topic. So this slide is also linked to what Thierry de Montréal said in this introduction which is we have to be a very realist in the short term but keeping being idealistic in the medium and long term. In the short term we saw that buying as much energy as possible was what was done but not enough is done or probably it's starting again on nuclear power discussion. Don't close the nuclear power plants and I know that's an element of debate in many countries especially in Germany and in Belgium but energy conservation there is also a lot of measures who have been pushed in several countries we probably need to do much more of that and in the middle term clearly accelerate the deployment of renewable but also diversification of older supplies and the energy mix and implementing an electricity market reform there has been some start and it needs clearly a global governance but in the longer term what we need to do is also accelerating innovation I agree with what has been said we know that a lot of the technologies that will be needed to reduce our global emissions are not yet ready for implementation or not fully industrialized so we should not focus only on solar and wind there's many more technologies that are there available and on which we should invest and nuclear is clearly part of the part of the picture. All of this has to be done considering that access to energy needs to be affordable and possible for everybody not just in Europe but globally so energy access is clearly a topic that needs to be considered while working on energy transition and the fight against climate change. In the previous session there was also a big discussion about the supply of raw material I'll come back to that a bit later. Very quickly on that I'm sure you've seen the latest IE report which was published yesterday or two days before and which updated forecasts say that in the next five years the world will add more renewable power than in the past 20 years and they've updated that because of the increase the surge in renewable power that was added due to the Renoir so we're not there yet we're not on the right path to reach the net zero scenario but it's it's improving and that's true not only in Europe but clearly as well in India and in China and the US are also picking up. Electrification is the new and energy efficiency and the new what I said the new kids on the block and electrification clearly is being pushed as a model for the new economy and that's probably also difficulty because it needs the need for new electric capacity so energy efficiency there is also a strong increase as you can see on this chart in energy efficiency measure especially in building insulation it doesn't I mean it's useless to put a heat pump in a house if you didn't do the home insulation work first and the nuclear relations we mentioned it as well there will be a six new nuclear plant next year a lot in the east in Europe needs to have open its eyes on the reality of the energy mix I'll skip that one I won't say much more about material because I think it was rightly put by especially Mr. Chalmain in the preview session about the fact that the energy transition must be looked not with the naive eyes but considering the the need of materials for this transition so it's it's we should be careful of not creating new dependencies and probably as well Europe needs to reopen its eyes on the not in my backyard policy we cannot ask the other ones to do what we don't want us or self to do so if we need lithium if we need nickel if we need cobalt let's be honest to ourselves and not tell our friends of Africa of India Asia whatever or South America to do it for us so there's probably some ethics to put back in the game there green green hydrogen is on all the lips as you know it's very trendy there's a lot of money out there it won't probably reach the level which is which is required to decarbonize the economy which is the 15% we are not on that pass one of the reasons being the lack of green electricity available and so that means that large of green electricity have not will need to be imported from other regions so the geopolitics will have to change a bit because clearly some region will be in a in a in a new position of exporting energy in the form of through the hydrogen carrier Latin America for instance Australia and Asia and also Africa so the geopolitics of energy might change a bit due to the emergence of green hydrogen but we are not there yet and there is also some technology hurdles to to move this hydrogen around the world climate change mitigation will depend on technology but not also but not only are also in large effort by corporation and citizens meaning that there is a lot of technology out there the electricity mix will be done using several technology and you need a significant effort on r&d but you know also need a significant effort in training people for to deeply display this new technology and also to explain to the politicians that those technology are available and that they need some support not only financial support but also capability support and political support some are sometimes struck by norms that can be changed very easily while we focus a lot on solar and wind there's much more out there so very very quickly to to conclude in recent years and we've been saying that for quite a while in Capgemini energy supply energy safety has been neglected and this this led to be relying mostly on on gas network from external so clearly we have a hard wake-up call energy sobriety is a critical and immediate measure for Europe at least to avoid disruption in supply not only relying on the other ones call clearly it's it's there is a wake-up call on call which also drive a new technology on which the US at least are investing a lot which is a carbon capture and utilization not only storage and it would be key to eliminate co2 it's very easy to tell all the countries to get rid of their co2 plan but you all know that those co2 plans have lifetime over 30 50 years and they won't disappear overnight and and all the countries who are relying on coal do not have enough resources to overnight invest in new clean energy new nuclear plants so ccus will be required for the eastern european country but also for asia we point fingers to china who is heading a lot of coal fire plants but they need a diverse mix and probably ccus would be also considered in the in the equation clearly we have to be realistic and the energy crisis will probably delay the the reduction of gg emission we saw that this year gm emission gg emission in 2022 are back to where they went in 2019 so a stronger increase but in the in the medium term carbon free energy will will also be dependent on more domestic resources maybe one last word which was not mentioned in the previous discussion its circularity i strongly believe that circularity is also a lever that is insufficiently used and explored and which is also a way to solve part of the equation we discussed earlier about the lack of material that we will probably face but we don't explore at all or not sufficiently circularity as a lever to reuse and reinject in the economy the materials that we need to support the energy transition thank you very much thank you very much very interesting presentation i would like to make three comments on your presentation and then launch a discussion and to to build on what mr taneja just said uh first of all you mentioned energy efficiency i've been recently on mission in central asia and when we are talking about energy efficiency we have to mention subsidize when energy is subsidized it's very difficult to have prices that reflect the real market so that's a very important topic that we have to tackle in the north as well the second point is green hydrogen and some projects are linked with africa for example that we will have solar farms and then come back to europe for green hydrogen i'm afraid it will it could increase a gap as you mentioned between south and north and this is a topic that we have to tackle and to discuss again because it's a bit contrary and the last point you just mentioned circularity if we talk about green hydrogen that is produced partly in africa and then back to europe it's not circularity at all so all these topics are on the table and i would be very happy to hear some questions or comments on that yes please so i would like to highlight a challenge which for me is very important it's a challenge of flexibility of the electricity system in fact the demand of electricity will grow due to the increase of population but also due to the fact that the mixed the share of of electricity in the energy mixed will increase and there is a consensus on that fact on the other side on the side of supply there is a reduction of the dispatchable capacity it's a case in the oecd countries but it's also the case worldwide and there is a clearly an increase of renewable energy but it is intermittent and so this is creating a clear challenge of the flexibility of the security of the energy of the electricity sector and this has been clearly highlighted by the ia in a recent report i think two years ago on the world energy outlook which was showing that the flex this challenge of flexibility of electricity is a challenge worldwide in oec countries but also in non oec countries including for example china india or africa and i think it's very very important problem because it's very difficult to store electricity thank you olivier i see two no yeah okay erve mariton first a formal remark on the fact that florent compared the situation in energy with the covid crisis asking for a warp speed reaction there's a real danger in using the notion of urgency in the same way about different crises i mean we had answers concerning the covid crisis that actually challenged our democratic model and i think it would be great danger to have this same understanding of urgency as to the energy and climate crisis because if we answer with the same word and concept on any challenge we have then it's our whole democratic model which is at stake the the second formal in a way remark with a bit of a delay to our indian friend to our german friend sorry is that the self-criticism you expressed probably would have not have been the same if germany had not closed its nuclear plants to florent again and indeed after your remark valérie florent insisted on the affordability of the the necessity of affordability to energy and you underlined the point about subsidies and there might be a contradiction between affordability and subsidy and as the economies christian gollier always emphasizes the energy transition has its cost and somebody's got to pay for it and it ends up at the consumer i mean it's not cows that pay taxes on milk the last point is on hydrogen and also the movement of industry and activity you were stating that the ira and the competitiveness of the energy supply in the states could have its impact on industry but actually the development of renewable energies in the south could itself have its impact i've read some analysis that said that the first step is presently indeed may be a movement from europe to the states but once there is a important development of energy production particularly solar production the south you may have this electricity being conveyed through hydrogen to europe but you might also have a movement of industry from europe to the south and this is a point that's got to be analyzed and the last thing is i read that yesterday an agreement had been obtained between france and spain has to a pipe a gas pipe and i also heard an analysis without found interesting particularly in this period and the fact that france might then resemble and it might have been some of the difficulties in negotiating this agreement that france would not wish to resemble a new ukraine with a large flow of hydrogen coming from the south africa through spain and then through france to germany maybe thank you mr schermann yeah i've just a question because i'm not a technician uh as uh olivia pas said electricity for the moment we don't know how to store it apart from using mountain dams and as i understand the idea of storing electricity through hydrogen is not efficient enough and when i heard about the future of hydrogen my friends at edf electricity of france tell me that uh uh you need to have a constant source of power to produce efficiently hydrogen so my idea is that you could produce hydrogen to store intermittent energy seems not to be valid and also uh hervé mariton said that we would build uh hydro pipelines i've heard that it wasn't and that the you're more an engineer than i am but uh i heard in chemistry that the hydrogen molecule was so thin that it was pretty difficult to develop so those two i for the moment and for how long do you think the idea of storing power will be almost impossible and all what i heard about hydrogen and so on is it real stuff or mere illusion at least for the 10 years to come but i'm not a scientist so sir please you have the floor i would like to bring some answers because i dealt with hydrogen i'm franklin servant driver by the way for transmutex so i was working with a boat that had 500 square meters of solar power and we had to have batteries in order to sustain the boat when there was no sun uh and so we had eight tons of batteries which lasted for one and a half days of power on the boat so we installed hydrogen and the hydrogen tank the storage i think is solved okay but it took 30 days to fill 200 kilos of hydrogen but 200 kilos of hydrogen lasted six days compared to eight tons of batteries for one and a half days so yes hydrogen is the future in many ways it's not such a long future uh i think it's pretty much like the RNA vaccines i think if we hurry up we can make it happen uh there are some amazing technologies coming out of of some research in argon labs in australia about mixing hydrogen with diesels and we would need to retrofit the diesel engine without replacing them and this would reduce co2 by 80 percent so you know those are really very important but the one thing about hydrogen is you need a lot of water and people forget that you need a lot of water you need 18 tons of fresh water to make one ton of hydrogen and if you use salt water which is most of the case in saudi arabia the hydrogen hub in saudi arabia or in africa then you reduce that efficiency by 50 percent in energy so hydrogen is the future but the future is probably in the northern latitudes and in the andes um where we don't have agriculture uh where water is not in competition uh with agriculture thanks absolutely right thank you so much now i will leave the floor to eager eager urguns who will give us an highlight of what's going on russia yeah thank you very much thank you very much for having me i'm from the educational institution so i'll be talking about more of our programs of educating people for the sustainable development energy and environment rather than practical things but before starting my presentation i would like to say that after peris peace uh peris climate summit uh russia committed itself to global zero i mean to net zero by 2060 it adopted its national plan and so on and so forth but you can appreciate that that was a formidable task to accomplish because 60 percent of the external trade of russia are carbons 40 percent of the revenues to the budget uh this oil gas and and coal and 20 percent of the gdp so to cut this to scrap this essentially is the task of the restructuring of the whole economy you add to this steel industry agriculture and everything else which is also heavily carbonized and you can imagine that from now to 2060 the task is is enormous and that was as i said peris peace forum again excuse me for peace forum but that was also the they coincided climate forum and peace forum in peris the business surprisingly enough in spite of all the sanctions in spite of all the pressure on russian businesses and private and and uh public they build up in the east gl lines of the 30 largest companies and they work hard on this non-financial reporting on these green uh uh instruments on uh trying to clean themselves up in accordance with sustainable development criteria and i can tell you that in most of those companies you can see a pretty sensible plan of decarbonization in the fight against green washing and i would i would like to reiterate one thing that the restructuring of russian economy of the of the scale which depended so much on on the carbons would need extra efforts and the plan which was worked out for the future is this exactly the production of hydrogen green and blue hydrogen both for the domestic purposes and for the for the since this issue was was mentioned for the export on the island of france yosef that's on the extreme north of russian federation they started production of this hydrogen and they played with the idea to the best of my knowledge of using uh north stream 2 as the pipeline which would pump hydrogen to to germany uh they were an experimental change with both mixture and non-mixture of with diesel as well as as as it was mentioned and uh they they really they really uh before the the the crisis before the the the start of the strategic war they they really played with this idea but we know what happened to to north stream and but the the if i understand correctly the technology exists and uh russia has to uh start renewables from scratch actually we had such a cheap gas and cheap oil and cheap coal that we never thought about that but the prerequisites are all there i would say because on solar i don't know what do you know or not uh yakutia which is the extreme north of russia uh yakutia which is has minus 40 degrees uh in in winter uh has more solar days than than france for example it's it's a pretty solar area winds no problem at all and water of course is is is available and from this point of view 20 of the world production of hydrogen that was the target for for the russian federation according to this decarbonization plan uh renewables wind solar all of this at the moment is no more than two percent i think of the of the balance but people start doing all this pilot projects big parks and and uh surprisingly enough especially younger generation which thinks about russia after russia after this crisis which we which we live through uh they're very much uh sort of involved and very very enthusiastic about that stuff i mentioned is geolines but we have also uh different initiatives including coalition for the sustainable development of russia a big organization young people bright eyes you know in spite of everything else they they fight for their causes and we in gimo in mayo university uh together with the unesco people we we organized the gimo ranking of russian regions in the achievement of sustainable development goals that's for the second consecutive year uh it's it's difficult to see who is who is where but the top three is mosco belgarot and mormonsk and the the worst three are those areas which are rundown which the gdp original gdp of the the lowest so the inter linkage between poverty and and richness is obvious in sustainable development like everybody else in russia what we did for the for those young people we organized so-called priority 2030 which is subsidized by the state this is a federal academic leadership program and gimo is is in the center as you see but uh you uh rostov that's uh southern university uh south southern federal university of russia they are dealing with agricultural aspects of sustainable development in uh right raising temperatures in the south of the country and in the caucuses and uh saint petersburg university in coalition with us is dealing with the uh arctic area and with uh hydraulic uh hydraulic aspects of uh the development of the permafrost and and and all of that stuff uh russian position on the cope 27 was that gas is a transit energy and nuclear is a green and we we keep thinking that this this is this is a fact of life uh we we try to develop both methodology technology and science in this field in spite of all the difficulties uh ross atom builds some good stations in in in egypt and some other countries uh we academia in in the nuclear field is working hard on this mini reactors in in nuclear reactors and on the waste disposal and reprocessing and they advance pretty pretty pretty well if you look at the uh research in the united states on on the same subject of nuclear mini and of nuclear waste disposals and in russia you feel that the people go in the same direction with more or less the same speed so we have our advantages at the moment these advantages can be discarded for the rest of the world because we are on the sanctions and rightly so because the alternative to the sanctions would be a war war is worse than than sanctions but the time will come when russia will come back to the civilized world with its own ideas on the general balance of energy and and with some some some results believe us that there are people who think about future in my country regardless thank you many thanks igor for your comments and the honest presentation fridbert well well igor i think that we all hope that this will come soon i mean russia is there will remain there it is a huge country and as you said it has many many people who were not in favor of the war and who had great projects i had a project with with my company with wolfgang schüssel and anatoly chubais for greening russia i i know that with rosatom i had a contract on how to deal how to treat nuclear used fuels in a way which is called transmutation and partition and unfortunately and that is the tragic of this war all this got killed all this wonderful cooperation got killed and now it's a i mean we just heard uh franklin sarvan schreiber it is european companies who have to do that rosatom was in lead but but now others are coming in europe with with a great speed we should think about some academy but it's it's the the point is not who is first and the competition what is important is really to take nuclear a new generation of nuclear as a green as a green energy source and that is possible in the moment we understand that there is a chance to get rid of large parts of this nuclear fuels and there are technologies in the world and i think we should be much more open than the green movement all over europe is today to nuclear with the exception of france perhaps but uh in general there is still a lot of of skepticism and i think we have to overcome that in the new generation thank you frieberg you got one to reply to yeah thank you very much yeah we started volgan schussel from austria ex chancellor anatoly chubais from russia he was a special representative of the president putin for the sustainable development i was involved also i know that your organization where we met in munich etc etc so it was very good essentially i don't know i'm not an an engineer but essentially if we talk about this nuclear thing they they produce uranium then what is wasted they sort of a they made the particles which can be reused again and then the waste goes to the 150 meters that where uranium was found that is to say he's reproducing himself in the soil it's it's simply said but very difficulty done but we and americans we do the same thing and in pennsylvania i know that the laboratory which which does it more or less the same thing so it's it's it's a great misfortune what happened uh historical mistake but uh let's hope that it will be over in in the foreseeable future and we go back to normal thank you your uh narindra yes please just a small brief question you talked about mini reactors could you elaborate are the mini reactors being talked about at development russia are different from smart reactors being talked about in the us and western part of the world probably it's the the different name for the same thing but you create a reactor which can take care of the village of 500 houses something like that they install it and that they they go ahead whether it's called smart or mini i don't know but in russia we call it mini probably it's called the smart in the united states sorry please when you speak when you push on the button who sir yes please sorry that's kind of my shield and i'm a great admirer of the russian effort in nuclear i would like to state that russia is so essential to the nuclear world in europe and in america that it is not under sanction rosa tom is not under sanction it's so essential and what happened in russia for small modular reactor it's not really called smart small modular reactors similar is for heat they put it on a barge and it's so difficult to build in you know far north of ciberia that they put it on a barge and then they drove it during the summer and it delivers heat and in fact you know that's probably the best use of nuclear power is to deliver heat which is 50 percent of our energy consumption everybody talks about electricity but in fact we should talk about heat and nuclear is the best for that thanks thank you for your insightful comment other question just please sir yes many has been said about production of energy but probably we need to also to talk about the consumption side you mentioned about heat and of course electricity and uh transportations and the the point about the demand side is they are very difficult to change because it's related with household you know small enterprises people in the village and so forth so i i wonder if you know all the panelists could maybe share how we see that how we see the the changing and how we should do in terms of the demand side of the energy how should we direct the changes to becoming more renewable if you may if i may yes please because it's so energy demand is something on which we work a lot and actually a good solution to that and coming back to your to your point it's high energy prices that's so far the best way we have found to make people care about energy and suddenly try to decrease their consumption so we we've been doing a lot of project where we were trying you know to deploy apps advice whatever for energy retailers so that people share best practice and reduce the energy consumption but we see recently that the best level actually for people to to to reduce the energy demand is actually that's the the price is high and that they suddenly have to manage their efficient their energy very efficiently likewise on the b2b side we have an as consultants a huge number of requests for more clients who suddenly are trying to be much more efficient and sobering energy and ask us to revise completely their industrial processes to deploy a lot of captors sensors iot whatever to as well reduce their energy demand or optimize it to try to reduce a bit or to optimize a bit their bills so there is an increase in the all the technology around energy efficiency and the latest topic it's a corporate ppa there is an increasing demand for green energy and it was at first for to reach targets on climate change renewable energy commitments that a lot of companies have taken but a lot of players are also seeing this as a way to have part of their energy bill control because when you sign a corporate ppa you sign it for 10 15 or 20 years and you have a clearer view of the future and electricity price or or gas price of this corporate pp thank you for your comment just before i give you the floor i just want to to make a comment on on what you said when we are talking about reducing demand again it's a northern conversation if we think of the south there are billions of people that don't have access to energy don't have access to electricity in south africa two hours a day they are in blackout and many many examples like this so we have to be careful if we want to live in the better world we have to increase our production of energy and electricity that's the topic for sure in europe we have we live in the context that we are now but we have to be careful of the conversation globally just to mention yeah please sir you have the floor no you just take my word all right that comes back to the point i agree with you that's clearly or that's clearly a northern perspective but coming back to your point not working on energy efficiency in europe it's us to import energy and derive it from where it should land in other continents so i think it's we should not oppose north and south it's a it's a global perspective keeping in mind that energy access is clearly a topic in most part of the world and i want to add something and make a comment on what you said yes it is a northern conversation but we have to be careful that the energy demand that okay is decreasing but be careful of the economy and recession that could be the consequences as well so we have to be careful on this wording as well sir you want to make to add something yes that that's actually more my my field and i think you're absolutely spot on because i think when we're talking about the energy transition i think that the probably the biggest i'm not going to say fallacy but probably the the hidden spot is that we've all focused on energy production the reality is that this this transition means that we're having more distributed and intermittent energy and this means that we need to manage the grid and it comes back to mr apers point we need to manage the grid and when i say the grid it's not only transportation but it's distribution and low voltage and to your point and it's not a north or south issue it's the market design and the way we run energy that needs to be thought thought all over again very differently because if you're in a village for example and i've done a project like that in africa and tanzania if you're in a village building a micro grid is much more complicated than we think and much more complicated than just saying okay we put a generation unit here and we distribute and someone consumes because you need to manage the consumption to be able to manage your your grid to to avoid having failures on your on your grid i think you have a very spot on point on this element of demand thanks for the comment yes please you have the floor yeah i learned from experience indonesia is an islands countries we have more than 15 000 islands and grid is out of the questions or for many of our islands and so i think back to the our colleagues from india decentralizations of energy in term of energy production as well as energy consumption is essential and probably listening you know listening to all of you probably i can just imagine one islands in indonesia we will jump from using wood maybe directly to the mini nuclear technology you know just just you know imagining things because again that is something that really need to to to put on the perspective of course probably i'm still dreaming but but probably that is the way and i would add natural gas as well you have a lot of project in house south is asia and on floating lng which are very important yeah if i take the example of the philippines in your country that's that's an important topic we haven't spoken but natural gas but each role in the energy transition and access to electricity is essential especially in your country yeah other yes please just two quick points you see when we talk of conservation there are two sides of conservation one is of course what we can do in terms of two conservation like in india we did only recently i mean the led bulbs are supposed to be you know helping in conservation of power so the government came out with an initiative which was initially subsidized across the country and the government was buying literally billions of bulbs and just passing on to the to the to the to the consumers a subsidized heavily and that really helped us change a the pattern b the habit and three of course you know the overall power consumption so led bulbs and today india is kind of a leader in led bulbs of course you know but there is other side of conservation i mean there are three billion energy poor on the planet three billion they're one billion energy poor just between afghanistan and birma majority of them of course in india what do i mean by energy poor the people who have very limited access to electricity maybe one bulb a mobile charger maybe a small portable or small television set and and they spend half of the evening switch off of the world when they move from one room to another the family makes sure that they've you know switch that off and the family is all assembled in one room in the to save electricity you know because they can't afford the bill like in india is power surplus today we are installed capacity is 400 000 megawatt so we call ourselves power surplus yet we have 700 million people who are energy poor because they don't mean money to pay for it now so that's the situation powers are plus on paper but with 700 million energy poor because they don't have money paying capacity so i mean that's the dilemma and how do for instance it's like telling somebody who actually access to only two pieces of bread saying conserve bread come on i'm getting only two pieces so what do i conserve so this i think is extremely offensive to even even talk about it for those three billion people on on the planet the same for instance when i earlier talked about lng a ship going to Bangladesh and being diverting so you see the and i there was an argument given by one of the energy ministers from this part of the world saying that oh that's not a worry we have got long-term contracts lng contracts and 80 percent of lng globally is actually shipped through these contracts i said fine and i was in a conversation with the honorable minister but the fact is that these contracts are not bible law or anything these can be renegotiated and we have seen Qatar four years ago when the lng prices dropped china insisted and Qatar agreed to renegotiate 15 year old 15 year long contract china pushed the pressure qatar agreed you know what happened after that we sent a delegation to doha and we asked for the same thing initially they said no but they agreed you see and this it is 80 percent kind of lng global supply is through the contract to say that these are sacrosanct these are bible you can't be or reopen they can be reopened if germany france or europe or the north pays more money to an lng exporting country of course by or maybe they'll be renegotiated the price will be also renegotiated that's the danger that's where the question is of governance and that's where the question of you know uh ethics that's the last point on nuclear you see the i mean india the when i look at india's energy mix the share of nuclear power is 2 percent and we have been working on nuclear power like since we were born as an independent country 1947 we said of the you know a commission for nuclear power already one year before the independence but it's still the share is only 2 percent and we we collaborate with russia we have our own initiative including one on thorium based on thorium there's fast breeder reactor based on thorium we are working on it we have got a small one already and now we we are also buying from france we are watching buying you know 10 000 megawatt nuclear farm kind of thing you know from westinghouse in the u.s and so and so forth yet there are many challenges you see the fuel and nuclear waste and so and so forth so nuclear is probably future that's i also look at it i think 2060 and beyond uh many of us won't be around but uh so but 2060 and bond is all going to be about nuclear power one way or another why and how because my sense is that nuclear by that time would become for instance more affordable and those are all these complexities probably would have been history and then solar power would be probably the you know commercially more viable easy to operate there might be a few questions like my friend talked about the mini grids or distributed solar distributed solar in india is also huge challenge we have done very well in solar the last five years but it's mainly power we generate and goes into a grid we are still struggling when it comes to distributed including many many you know grids but my sense is that 2060 and beyond in the global energy mix uh nuclear is going to occupy substantial share solar depends how you look at it we can always for the sake of fun i can say the solar power is also nuclear power because sun is a nuclear reactor so that's also indirectly nuclear power coming a reactor created by nature and thirdly of course hydrogen but hydrogen like some of my colleagues pointed out in india there is a lot of these hype these days on on on the you know with regard to hydrogen and especially green hydrogen i'm not yet buying into it but even if on let's say it becomes huge success i think in global energy mix hydrogen share is probably not going to be more than 10 percent but i may be wrong i can't know no export on that but overall picture when it comes to this i think looks if we move in that kind of direction chances are we'll be able to eradicate energy poverty and there would be more energy prosperity around the world thank you sir i leave you the floor and then we move on to the last speaker mark Antoine yes please yes sorry but narendra's remark on nuclear as a long-term energy is interesting with a perspective that if i remember well europe so far in its taxonomy considers both gas and nuclear as transition energies absolutely right mark Antoine the floor is yours thank you very much just to go back on this initial statement narendra you made passionately about this north south divide and all the obstacles that are related to that i mean in a way you're probably right that a number of concerns in the south are not included and taken on board but on the other hand it it kind of leads to think that well you know if we fail to tackle you know the climate change properly etc it's because of that divide and i think that's a little bit of a reduction to give you a few examples i think you know the the lng thing that you mentioned is is maybe not not the right example because if you really think it's a south south issue because actually the bangladesh minister of energy or whatever should have surmounted the russian ambassador and told him why are you cutting supplies to germany because as a consequence of that we don't get our lng because the fact that the lng was diverted is fully obeying contracts it's a contract there was no violation whatsoever the problem is that the russians have not fulfilled their contracts and and hence there was no gas in germany so the germans went on a market it's a market and if and if you have if you don't have the market you don't have the lng right and nothing works and so so i think there's a lot of south south issues i think we have a major issue as far as the south south issues are related because it's china that dominates to g77 via pakistan which is a very strange issue i mean china is no more a developing country but it is recognized as such in the global climate governments right so they should pay their part of all the development money of all the adaptation and mitigation etc etc i'm sure you will be agree with that nothing to do with india a very separate case now is it also an issue of governments you know for example you mentioned the ia we had also this conversation but since we we had it i mean india has been invited to become a member of the of the ia well yes yeah i mean they're working on changing they're working on changing the the treaty establishing the the ia so and you know so and and in the same organization there is another of other BRICS countries say that that are there on the table so i mean there is at least this forum um which is no it's a little bit more than a forum anyway and now now then of course there's cop now the point is i think i like the idea of this kind of energy security council i think that's quite interesting now who would you put in there the largest consumers and the largest producers but then there's nobody in africa um so then you have to make exceptions but then all of a sudden you have a hundred countries around the table or 80 or 70 and so then what do you do do you listen to 70 present have you ever attended the uh un uh you know uh council uh a national sorry a general assembly meeting i mean it's just insane you three days of presentations because every country has i don't know five or seven minutes and then you know you listen to these things so there's an issue of okay how how would that exactly play out and and then what would it actually be able to do because like would we discuss with the russians you know the gas problems in europe so the russians would say you know their narrative then the europeans would say oh they would start saying this is an insane aggression blah blah blah and then you know after after two hours we wouldn't have moved an inch so the russians would have said no it's the fault of the europeans the europeans would have said no it's the fault of the you know so i think there is this issue of not to be underestimated the big problem of global governance is also the effectiveness to act right and we have a chance to have somehow some institutions that somehow work so maybe you know let's try to improve that but on the other hand on the other hand i think this council would make sense perhaps for for several things one thing is on oil it's interesting so we are here in one of the largest world's producers and it's interesting to see that there are fundamental issues on oil that you also find in gas for example so so the issue is how do we how do we ensure a fair redistribution of risks of you know profits between the consumer and the and the off-taker sorry and the producer and and i think this discussion might come back because we are now we will somehow you know have a peak oil demand coming we can discuss when it's coming etc but then we will have to manage you know how much investments we still put into the system to avoid a global instability but still to ensure that we are you know on track to a reduce demand and b to you know align the production the progressive production reduction with that so that requires a finger good dialogue with the Saudis with the Emirates with the russians one day when they go back so that you know the oil price is not 130 but not 50 and so that here they can invest in their transition and so that the consumers in India in Europe etc there is no big social unrest and the governments are not destabilized because they all have to focus on the transition and on their stability right so i think this we could discuss in such a format i think another thing is clearly so what do we do with natural gas and here we could also have you know a kind of pathway because now all the emerging economies have been deprived of access to the spot lng market right and as you said no one has been said they're getting back to call but but still we could discuss a pathway where okay you know what is the 15 years perspective we know what kind of investments are coming in upstream energy we know more or less you know what could be the demand profile in europe in japan and taiwan and in south korea and china and the large lng off takers and so then we could discuss you know what voice could then be progressively possibly freed up again for these countries for you know under what terms etc etc so there's a number of issues there that could be discussed and you know we we mentioned the electricity systems i mean frankly uh with the inflation that we have with the money all going to the u.s uh are we realistically going to be able to lay out you know all the solar panels that we're talking about etc i doubt but what is for sure is that you know even the numbers and the trajectory on which we are on that is two trillion investments by 2030 versus 1.2 last year well that's still two times less than what is needed for 1.5 degree trajectory so in any case we are we are missing the targets but then you know what are the consequences of failure the other aspects that could be discussed is of course to the the clash of industrial policies i mean this is a uncooperative world we are entering in and uh so there's short term protectionism one understands why but then longer term you know of course it will probably slow down some developments or at least increase costs for some and and what others who have more money might be able to buy the corp and then yes on the climate governments i i just would like to to emphasize the issue that uh again we could discuss in such a format you know the need for a carbon price globally so you know in india it might be 20 with a you know with a pathway to 50 over 15 years and in the u.s and europe be it the shadow price or real price we started 100 and then we moved to 150 you know and and and at least that there is a that there is a global movement in that sense and i and i'm confident that it can be done i mean we have a minimum taxation for large corporations which was negotiation for a very long time two years ago people thought it's impossible but at the end it was achieved right and and i'm sure in russia we even in russia there were discussions and you know stakeholders interested so it's not impossible it's not impossible even for fossil fuel producing country and um yeah and the last word of course that could also discuss everything related to sustainable finance because we can't have 200 definitions of you know what is green finance what is not green finance what is you know in the taxonomy what is not so obviously it is a massive need of harmonization here because if i'm a global investor well in in europe nuclear by the way it's not entirely in the taxonomy it's under conditions same for natural gas but you know in in in japan there's no discussion about nuclear in the taxonomy neither in china neither in russia neither in india i'm sure if you put one but so again any u.s of course not so here of course also need anyway i'll stop here but yes let's take this conversation forward on on this on this governance issue if i have the just quickly respond to it won't take much time you see interesting points i mean i i think this is what's required we need conversation it's not that i'm 100 right or you 100 percent wrong or you 100 percent right or we 100 percent wrong no such thing we need more conversation around it for instance international energy agency you say that india and china have been invited to be to be members no there is no truth in it india and china both the giants and the second and the third largest consumer of energy have been invited to sit outside the room in the lounge they associate members so you can invite somebody you invite somebody to this conference and say you can't come in because this is sacrosanct space go and sit in the lounge so that's the status now we have to be honest the fact is that there are many members of ia especially the smaller oecd country they don't want to change the constitution of ia is the idea of the president chief executive of i that means that many of the founding members of ia don't agree we also have consultations with them we also have regular consultation so on ia so we need and moreover i is a kind of dna is what happened in early 1970s in response to the oil embargo from this part of the world so is dna is different to ask any professor who specialized on dna to change dna is very very difficult takes generation why can't we just create something new the quick point on this south south cooperation or the south south problem it is not because you see anything that happens for instance if we buy l and g from kata you see a we pay in dollars money has to go via somewhere in the west majority of lawyers is specializing in international contracts are based in london new york and such places third you know when it comes to technology l and g technology is with very limited number of country there are all in the north actually mostly germany lindey and others so it's actually it's it's not really we can't just say that south south because it's it's actually both north and south it is a north south issue now that's how we need to kind of look at things without being you know when i say that we need conversation or not i'm not accusing anybody all i'm saying is have conversations have dialogues we listen to you you listen to us otherwise we are going to create thousands of energy ukraines across the world do we want energy ukraines around the world now final point i just want to make is that when it comes to you know when you talked about uh you know these agency i let me give you an example there is an intergovernmental organization called international solar alliance how many in this room have heard of it none yeah so international solar alliance is an intergovernmental organization it was anchored by india and france is headquartered in india india has been pushing very hard to kind of make it like the ia of solar energy and you know the country which are resisting supporting but at the same time resisting it's a fine art it's not that easy you can't say you're resisting because i'm a member of international i'm even contributing but i don't want you to be able to grow so it's far more complex my friend so what we need is honest conversation that's all i'm saying i'm not accusing anybody i'm not saying ia is bad all i'm saying is the world has changed and the world is changing gravity center has moved to our part of the world this is a new world if the north still kind of is very adamant they refuse to listen to even to have conversation trust me they will regret it in 25 years from now thank you very much just to to build on what you said you mentioned the solar alliance i think in energy there are groups or institutions or association on natural gas and nuclear and so on the thing is that it's very often polluted by politics and you see it's my experience at the un my experience in the private sector it's very difficult to have a honest conversation and we see that nowadays in yas and many other sectors so it's not an easy task it's an important task to and we have to move forward in this way for sure there's one platform that that is interesting according to me is the regional commission of the un in boncock escap where india is a member with all these nations and they are doing a great job on all these issues fridbert the floor is yours i'm i'm a bit skeptic what concerns this idea not because i i'm against talking and talking between north and south and and and of course dialogue is always good but the best governance for for energy was a liberal free energy market not politicized well that has broken down as has as as the whole world has turned more protectionist more my nation first well trump said america first but mr biden is doing pretty much the same a little bit nicer words a bit more diplomatic but the the core is the same and wherever we we look around in the world this notion of a multi polar discussing world looking for better governance is pretty much vanishing away and what we see is more and more a g2 world a confrontation between the real two superpowers and basically they they all tell us make your choice on which side you are and i agree and that's a little bit the ideology of india during the block confrontation in the cold war the block free nations we should do our utmost europeans indians not to go into this polarization try to get rid of that as much as we can but i i fear that the signals in the moment are going are showing in exactly the other heading for energy cold war thank you so much other comments from the room last question or comments you would like to raise no we close here i thank you very much it was a great pleasure to have you all here i seen the conversation was very useful and thank you to hold the speakers and panelists have a great evening thank you so much