 Hello. Let me start my video up here. Here we go. Hi. How are you? I'm doing okay-ish. Let me, I need to hurry up and get an agenda together for us. I am filling in for Carolyn today who is vacationing MBS. So you know we're fun, do you know? Don't, I think staycation. Oh, okay. Well, yeah. That's the only option. The only safe option. Right. I don't think I've met Scott before, but since I'm kind of newish, I don't know if you're new too or- No, I'm new as well. I'll introduce myself. I work at Microsoft. I run the cloud advocacy, sorry, for containers. And I went with Karen, and she was like, you definitely should be involved in this. So today is my first day. Welcome. Welcome. So I was having a couple of Zoom issues at the beginning. I couldn't get my audio and things working. That's cool. Yeah, I'm new wish. So I've been here for a couple of so that's why I've never sure because I know there's sometimes people skip and I was like, okay, I don't know. So I was like, yeah, I'm with boy and by the way. So the company behind Lincordie. So now I've got the agenda. And today, what is today? December 8th already. All right. This is actually the first time I've written a day today for some reason. So that's why I was like, wait, I've been working for a while today. Why do I just know this? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Right. You know, the good news, though, it means that 2020 is almost over. Isn't that like awesome? Holy. It's like crazy years. It's like, I'm like, I've never felt like this about a year, but this is like, I want this to be over. And then hold on. So I've already done it. I've been working on that. It's kind of like a contributor. Framework or contributor growth framework. And then, well, I'm looking at the last agenda. Recruiting playbook and onboarding experience. So. Scott. Thank you for coming to our show here. Karen. Hello, Catherine. Hello. Let's start this. So everybody be kind to each other. It is only four of us. So feel free to just interject. And that's it. And then outside of contributor ladder and then contributor growth framework. And then we'll, I'll also just do a little tab for recruiting playbook. Anything else. Anyone have any other agenda items that they wanted to bring up today outside of general discussion. Okay. So let's see. Catherine, why don't we start with you then? You want to tell us a little bit about the contributor growth framework, maybe catch Scott up to since that's new. And tell us what's going on. Yeah, let me, where's the time. So one of the things or the reason. We kind of looking for the, where is it? Okay, doesn't matter. I had it up. So one of the things that we from Lincoln D. We're hoping to get out of it as kind of. Understanding or creating like processes that can help contributors, you know, Contribute more code or participate in different forms. Like there's also like non-code contributions, which are important, right? Like helping on stack and so on. And during our first meeting. I was like, okay, I'm going to start with you. The big feedback was like, Hey, all your struggles are actually everyone struggles. Like everyone is having exactly those issues, asking exactly those questions. And then so after the meeting, I was like, well, if we need to know this, like, this could be like a little project, right? Like creating a framework. For different companies, like for different projects that are. Small to growing, like what are the different best practices that other more mature companies have done? How, yeah, how, how are they really kind of helping people go through that process and incentivize them to be more active. And so interestingly, that all ties in into what, well, not interestingly because the name of this group actually says it all, right? But like there are like different initiatives, like the recruitment playbook that hi, Charles, that Paris is working on and Karen is working on the ladder. And I think the way I see it is like, like what I was envisioning is a little bit broader. And then, but it ties in directly. Like, so I'm sure there are a lot of different resources like the ladder, like the recruitment playbook that are more detailed, that kind of plug in to that, right? It's like, okay, they're more concrete. And so I've been interviewing different, well, I've interviewed two people so far. So Paris and another person today. And I'm trying to create that. And that's where I wanted to see because I have this new, I probably closed it already. So basically it starts with how do you motivate. So the first step is like, basically how do you motivate contributors, users to contribute? So that's the first step, right? Like, and then the next step is like, how do you help them through the process, through the PR submission process to make them to set them up for success. And then how do you, the next step is like, how do you like motivate them to, or like make sure they continue contributing and motivate them to go up the ladder, right? And then the last part is like, how do you incentivize people to contribute more than just code? Or like, not, yeah, not more. Like some people may just want to contribute different things. So, yeah, so those are kind of like the different parts. And what I'm doing now is kind of interviewing people and trying to gather information and then like putting it into our document. And that would then point to these different other documents that Paris and Karen are working on basically. So that's how I, but it's very early stage. Can I just jump in here? I think this is the reason why Karen asked me to join is I'm actually working on the Twitch stream to do exactly that. So you get someone from a CNCF project and work with developers and show them how to contribute. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's, you're kind of, are you still there? At the moment, I've only done, sorry, my Zoom's freezing up. So I'm not sure what's happening. But at the moment, I've done the video with Jeremy Rickard. And that was solely on the release team for Kubernetes. But I'm super interested to get all seen. Yeah, projects on board and do to our Twitch stream about how they can work with developers to develop on board and sort of have like a coding example and some things that they can work on to start getting more people contributing to. Yeah. Like if you're interested, what we can do is maybe set up like a separate meeting. I can show you what we have so far. And if you want to kind of help on that front, that would be awesome. And I think now he's frozen. Okay, we lost. Yeah. I'm having some issues. I mean, I think. Yeah. I was suggesting that Scott rejoin the call, maybe. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I'll just rejoin. Yeah, but in general Paris, what I just wanted to kind of, you know, say like where we are at and it's very at the beginning is kind of like. So I think it's going well. And I'm, I'm, I'm each conversation is kind of useful. And the interesting thing is that the feedback is positive too. So today I met with Carlisia and she was like, Oh, I want to know this too. And I kind of gave away some of the things that you kind of mentioned. And she was like, Oh my God, I have to do notes here. So it's like even for someone working in a big company, it's like a VM where she was like, really like, Oh yeah, this is like, we can use it too. So it's good feedback so far. Cool. All right. And then anybody else have any questions for contributor growth framework. All right. And then Karen, I think the last agenda item we have for contributor ladder is just to get it approved by sod. And Matt, who are our TOC representatives, and then they take it and so that we can graduate it. That is that correct. Cause I was decided on, I think on the last call. You and yeah, talk about, okay. Yeah. I think it was like, if you were, if you were okay with how it was, we will wrap in our TOC folks. Okay. Well, so I brought it up for the first time during the column and I'm going to drop a link to the contributor ladder template that I made. And so if anyone has any suggestions, maybe let's wrap it up by Friday. Do I need to do anything or like who brings it to them? I will. I mean, well, to me or Josh or somebody, because we were bringing some other templates to them as well. And then, so we'll do a final call for comments on the mailing list. Maybe today. Scott and Matt final call for comments. And just now remembering, did you say something about like. Having a section at the bottom with the resources that we referenced. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That would be good. Like, like the raw, like the raw resources pretty much. Like, you know, if there's like good, like the Kubernetes community one and. And then like the Porter one. And stuff like that. Yeah. All right. Cool. All right. And then so for those who are new to the call and are like, what the heck did they just say? Karen did a contributor ladder for us and collaborated with a couple of other folks. And now we are about to graduate that out of a. Draft state. So this is sort of the last call for comments. So if you have any comments for that, Karen is dropping the link into the chat here. And I'm going to put it right on the agenda as well. So that is the last call for comments. And then we will invite our TOC. We have TOC liaisons for each thing under CNCF. And we'll invite them to review our. Templates and guidance so that we can get the official stamp of approval for guidance. All right. Any questions for Karen? All right. Josh. Hello. It's great. I just wanted to say that we found it very useful and great. So thanks for putting all the work in that. Karen. Hey, Paul. Yeah. I'm hoping to use this myself for some of my. So I was invested. Well, that's all the idea. It's the same, you know, like we're doing it because we need it. And then like, but we just noticed it's not only us. Like there was a whole community unit. So it's like, that's the goal, right? All right. And then. Josh, did you have something for the career where you're just hanging out? Just dialing in. I did not have anything for the agenda. Although I am very happy to see the contributor letter documentation, which is awesome. All right. And then we are welcoming even more comments for the recruiting playbook. We're also welcoming collaborators. The link is inside of the agenda for that. I do have tons of. There's already comments and things to add, et cetera. So we are still in a very much draft state there. Please get the word out to other folks in your projects as well. If they're interested or if they know something that's really worked for them, or if they really know something that didn't work for them. Whatever, get the word out. This is the how to recruit. And what I mean by that also is like outreach programs. Issue and PR triage strategies because obviously people are already on GitHub. So how do you, how do you lure them in? With that kind of a strategy approach, et cetera. I will share that link also in chat as well as the agenda. So like Catherine mentioned, this will be part of that. Framework questions, concerns, comments about the recruiting playbook. I mean, we're still so early in stages. Is this part of the like set of templates or like set of talks you're going to try and get approved this week? No, no, this one's still. No, we're still far out. I mean, not far, but we're still in the middle of it. Yeah, so we still have some time for that. And like I said, call for participation for those who would like to collaborate. All right. And then the last item that I have until, and then we can open up for open discussion. I'm not pushing this one. I'm not pushing this one. I'm not pushing this one. No. No, no, this one's still. No, we're still far out. I mean, not far, but we're still, I'm not pushing this one. No. I'm like. Like in the back of my head, I'm like, say yes. I'm like, I'm not pushing this one. I'm like, I'm not pushing this one. I'm like, I'm not pushing this one. So the last item that I have until, and then we can open up for open discussion. Well, this kind of is honestly, this is sort of like open discussion. I stood on a platform in governance. I think Charles already heard this earlier. But one of the things that. Here, I'm actually going to copy the issue. One of the things that. I've done thoroughly this year is read Nadia's book twice. She's an author. She's a. She's a writer. And she has been able to maintain. Open-source projects and like how, how the whole thing works. And it's beautiful. And the thing that really came to me. While reading it is a lot of the problems that. We have today. She kind of. Not necessarily solved by any means. But she did. Hold on. Share. it, make it make sense. So in the book, and if if you haven't read it, I'll just like edits is a very TLDR but in the book, she goes on to sort of create classification systems for projects because she believes that a lot of the times maintainers are kind of comparing themselves from like apples to, you know, trees, and not necessarily in the same thing. So they think or fork, you know, some type of community operation or procedure thinking that that's going to go for them when it really doesn't. So I'm trying to think in that way too and how can we create community taxonomies that make sense for CNCF projects because you hear a lot of the, you know, both subjective and objective comments about like what is open source and what is a project for CNCF and what is a graduated project for CNCF. And we have a bunch of graduation requirements now. But a lot of times we'll hear like, well, you know, not every project is Kubernetes, so therefore not every project needs to run like Kubernetes. So this just sort of a discussion that I wanted to bring up today, it does sort of hit on a little bit of governance, but it also hits on a lot of contributor growth, because I think that a lot of what we are prescribing to people and telling them how they can do a thing is really off, it's really based off of like what they want out of their project and what they want their project to be. So for instance, in the case of, you know, the classification system that Nadia pushed through, she says that projects all fall under these four buckets, one's Federation, one's a stadium, one's a club, and then the other one's a toy. So you can imagine the toys are like people's pet open source projects and things like that. So toys probably wouldn't be acceptable projects for CNCF, right? Or maybe they would only be acceptable projects for Sandbox. So I'm trying to think of how to tie this also into badging and elevate badging and like read me badging and like community repo badging into something that's a little bit more modern that can bubble up this information more than just like the hearsay that comes around and like the Twitter and the tweets and whatever. And we can actually classify projects on what they are and then provide classification definitions. And so for instance, in the case of those four buckets that Nadia used, Kubernetes would be a Federation and we would be probably a Federation steering, for instance. So that's sort of a long-winded rant for where I was kind of going with, I would love to kick off the badging process. So if anybody would love to help with this or if you feel like I've hit any notes that you care about, I would love to work with you on this, too. Because for instance, I think this could really play into like the contributor growth framework because we're kind of trying to give examples and guidance for projects. But in the case of, for instance, link or D, like maybe you don't need 100 maintainers, right? Maybe you don't need that. Maybe you just need 50 maintainers that stick around and that you have constant like, you know, maybe term limits and stuff like that. Like that's just like an example, but we could get that out of coming up with like project types and then like subtypes, kind of like, you know, birds, having given that example lately. Katherine, you look like you're thinking, what are you thinking? No, I think it sounds interesting. And as I said, like I'm super willing to help on these projects. I think probably I would want to get the other one a little bit more further along, not to work on several things at the same time. Just I'm afraid to get distracted, you know, sidetracked. But like in general, I think this is all, you know, it's at the end, it's like all part of one thing. It's like it's different where it's like you're looking at different aspects, but it's all about, you know, making an open source project successful and have a thriving contributor community, right? So, right. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just like, you know, I feel bad for some projects that kind of feel like they get lumped in with Kubernetes when that's not necessarily like how they operate. And they don't have to either kind of thing. So it just goes back to this age old debate of A, what's open source and B, what's an appropriate project for CNCF. So that's why I was trying to get on the wavelength. Sorry you heard I have to hear that twice, Charles. And Josh, for that matter. Oh, you're on mute, Charles, if you're talking to me. Don't worry, I talk to my monitor all the time. And people are like, you talking to me? I'm like, no, thank goodness. I have to unplug and replug my headphones every once in a while. No, I think it's, I think it's good. I'm super excited to get the book from you. I want to learn about it some more as well. Like I said, this is something that Catherine and I have been spending time on and I've been reading through other books as well. So I am curious to like, I'm in that process of like, how much information can I sponge together, like just absorb, and then how can we apply that to this working group as a broader approach and then the LinkedIn project specifically. All right, well, I'm going to continue to like make some inroads here, aka make this makes more sense. Like I said, this has just been in like my notes and I'm just tired of having half baked notes. So I just want to elevate stuff. Any other, anybody have any like project, like, so I know LinkedIn folks are on the line. Any projects that have questions or you want to talk about anything or anybody want to like Catherine, do you want to ask your live questions? We still have time or we can give you all time back because we've officially hit the agenda. Yeah, I think that's a question. Oh, I was going to say that I'm actually fine. I think that the process that was suggested before, like I don't feel like I'm ready to share too much right now. So that's kind of it's still kind of so we can do that maybe at a different time when we have when it's further along. And then Karen, that you're on the hook now. Okay, I don't know if this is right for to ask this question or if these resources already do this and I just haven't found them. But so as some of you know, I'm a community manager for Helm and we are like CNCS. CNCS asked me wanting to basically do a contributor summit of our own for Helm sometime next year. And I was wondering if there's like a framework for how Kubernetes does does theirs documented anywhere. Yes, very much documented inside of the community repo. Is that something we want to elevate to the CNCS level, like within this? Yes. Yeah, but I mean, my only problem with that is I'm going to have 70 contributor summits. So this is why I've been advocating for us to have like mega contributor summits so that we don't have to have 70 contributor summits. Yeah. But yeah, no, I mean, I can elevate any yeah, we can elevate any of that guidance in into here on for sure. Oh, also actually, that reminds me, hold on Catherine and Charles, like men thought there. If you want to help. All right. The next thing was not that not that either. I'm just taking you all on a ride with me through my GitHub tabs. All right, this one. So in the in Slack right now, Carolyn did the she netlified I made that a verb now netlified the site that she created for us. So this will be housed on some kind of contributors at CNCF.io site. It's going to host some kind that like this is sort of a just I'm putting this really quick together because we've had a couple issues about getting a contributor site. And when I say contributor site, I mean, CNCF contributor site together so that maintainers can have a place to have like info bubbled up. Contributors can have a place to have info bubbled up. So if you're in our Slack channel, do a couple of clicks. I'll get that right now. And then you can see the preview. So if you all have any ideas or anything that is not listed here that you feel like the site would benefit, I will be recruiting some more folks. I'll be recruiting some more folks to help with the site. So that's why I'm getting sort of like a punch list together of stuff we want so that we can recruit some more contributors for it. But yeah, this is it. So like I said, comments are welcome. So we've got the I'm a maintainer, I'm a contributor. And then about, which is like about us at a meta level. And then we'll also have a maintainers circle page just will, you know, where where we'll all converse and hang out when we're up and running there. But now I can't find the dang here. Yep. So I'm about to set this issue. So yeah, like I said, feel free to add anything that you would like. And but like that this will ultimately where all those templates and things that we're doing will bubble up to obviously the repo will still be there for folks to fork it. But it'll just have a little bit better information discovery. So that's really it for us today though. And let's see all have any other discussion topics, questions, let me actually put on the agenda, the contributor summit stuff. I'll do the tab again, summit guidance. Otherwise we got time back. I mean, I can hang out. So I'm trying to tell you. Well, I mean, like sometimes we're just more efficient, I guess. Yeah. Let's see. All right. That's it. Thanks, everyone. Bye. Thanks so much for your work, y'all. And Scott, welcome to the show. Thank you. I just like to say I'll put my hand up to help on the framework, the contributor framework. So yeah, I don't know where to start to help. But I'll ping you on slack and then we can start working from there. Yeah, sounds good. See y'all. Thanks, Scott. Thank you. Bye.