 Hello again from the virtual Channel 17 presentation of Stump to Chumps on this 29th day of April, the year 2021, the year of the pandemic. Stump to Chumps, a Burlington area trivia program testing our memories for back in the day, back in the day when milk was 19 cents a quart and pot. Well, that was a container for for plants. My name is Bill Keele, a forever resident of Burlington. Joining me on the panel today is Jane Morola McKenzie and Joey Dunovan had to call in sick and she is not with us tonight, but we have Janey. So Janey, what's your credits to be on this program? What's your Burlington history? Well, I was born and raised here, Bill, probably one of the last generations of people that remember when cars could go up and down each side of Church Street. Well, that's a good criteria. Did you go to Rice or Cathedral? Went to Cathedral Grammar School down in Burlington, which is, you know, no longer there, and went to Rice High School. Okay, good. And a special guest is longtime Burlington Mayor Peter Kovell. Not only was Peter a popular politician in Burlington, but he was city manager in Winooski, where he has his roots. Welcome, Peter. Nice to be with you, Bill and Janey. Thanks. And so are you ready to remember when when bread was 19 cents a loaf, but I guess that means that you've got a few years on me. So where did you, did you work in your father, your father had a grocery store, did he not? I grew up in, I was born in Burlington. Oh, at the hospital, of course. But I grew up in Winooski. I too went to Rice High School. So I'm kind of a hybrid Burlington-Winooski guy. But I've been living in Burlington now for the past, though, how many years? 40 years and worked for the city of Burlington for 25 years. I was senior director, but 15 years or seven terms as as mayor. But yes, I did grow up in Winooski and my first job was sorting bottles at my dad's grocery store. He and his brother, Bob, who by the way were were on stump the jump. I just watched an old rerun on it that you can pull up on Channel 17. They were on the show remembering Winooski trivia back in 1991, 30, 30 years ago. It was interesting to watch that. That was moderated by our friend Herblumenthal. So that was quite interesting. But anyway, the two brothers ran a grocery store at Clevelle Brothers IGA in Winooski for about 10 years, beginning 1949. And they closed 1959, which was a few years after the mills in Winooski closed. And about the same time, the supermarkets were opening up around the area, including Winooski. So that's my first trivia question to you. What was the name of that supermarket in Winooski and who owned it? Well, that was the Janie. That was Merle Wood. The Forest Hills store? Yeah, Forest Hills factory outlet. Yeah, but this was separate from Forest Hills. It was kind of out in the back. It was a country store owned by Merle Wood, three pounds of hamburg for a dollar. Wasn't he some kind of a showman too when he did his commercials? Yeah, it was great. Anyway, it didn't mean to interrupt you, Bill, but I had to. No, that's what's been the first question here. You stole some of my thunder because my script says, Peter, there are a lot of Clevelles on this program. I went back to the archives and your dad was on with your uncle Bob a while ago. We interviewed by her Blumenthal back in the 90s. Then we had you and your mom on a short while ago, all interesting, that she was an interesting character. Was she not? He is an interesting character. She's still doing well. She's going to be 96 this summer, lives independently, still living in Winooski down by the river, run to the flight path. She's doing fine. Very spry, 96. Peter, where was your dad and your uncle's store located? It was located just to the east of what now is Winooski City Hall. It's kind of a parking lot of what was the bank, and now is the brewery. I was located right there on West Dallin Street. Peter, I have something else in common with you. You just announced that. You sorted bottles at your father's store, and I sorted bottles at Vrets. The bottles were two cents in return of those days. I guess we all shared that. I was doing the same thing, probably at the same time. Oh, I were about the same time about that one. Anyway, I've got an audience question. But not panelists. You're not eligible to answer this one, but there are two streets in Burlington that intersect. One is the first name of this man, and the other street intersecting street is the last name of this man. So audience 862-3966. What is the name of this man, which is intersecting streets? The first street has one street has first name, the intersecting street has his last name. Okay, so that's the audience. All right, now let's get to some Winooski stuff. Peter, you really stole my thunder. Do you have any fond memories of Bill's diner? I put in Facebook some of the diners, like the Oasis diner, which is easy. Bill's diner, Miss Burlington diner. I don't know if anybody knows Miss Burlington diner. What about that? I don't know Miss Burlington diner, but I certainly remember Bill's diner located right there on East Allen Street, right next to the Levine's funeral parlor. But sure, I remember that well. Now, when you were manager in Winooski, city manager, did the politics always take place in City Hall, or did you go to Bill's diner to hash out differences, or was there some other place? Like in Burlington, we had the hitching post. We'd go over there and we'd figure out something. We'd arrange deals, think about Cross Street City Hall, and make the deal. Did that happen in Winooski? You know, I was city manager in Winooski. I was a young guy. It was from 1976 through 1979. And back then, the urban renewal had been implemented in Winooski, so much of the downtown area was vacant, and it was for quite some time. But we did have a lot of politics going on in the Black Rose Cafe, which was the old city clerk's office right there on the corner of East Allen Street, and I forget the name of that little street right next. It's now McGee's Pump. That was quite a spot. And also some of the social clubs were gathering places, the Knights of Columbus, VFW. So yeah, not all politics occurred in City Hall. Okay. Let's see. Another Winooski question is, do any of you remember the first name of a sweet shop in Winooski? Janie, I don't even remember this one. I'm going way back now, so Peter. It begins with a nest. It begins with a nest, doesn't it? Yeah. And you can call it Sullums? Yes. Sullums Sweet Shop, a very popular place. Now, there's another famous bar. What was the most famous bar in Winooski that you can recall? There's a lot of them, but I have one in mind, because I was a student at Sir Michael's College then. The old mill, yeah. Okay, Janie, ho-ho! Yeah, Julie and Phil. What was their last name? Melanson. You got it. Now, I think it was a freshman at Sir Michael's and go down there with all those guys. It had to be cool. You know, when you're a teenager or whatever, beer did not taste good. It did not taste good at all. But hey, everybody was there, and that's what you did. Now, they had something unique at the Old Mill Cafe that you couldn't get away with today. Would you happen to remember that at all? Something about the ceiling? Your ceiling. That's okay if you don't, but it's kind of remote. What we used to do, they had candles, and they put candles on the bottom of a paper plate. You put your name on the paper plate, put the wax in the burning can up, and put it on the ceiling. So when you went to the Old Mill Cafe, it's all these plates all over the place. Anyway, now there's another famous bar, it would have to be Peking Duck. Yes. Well, that was the same location as the mill. Okay. Was there anything unique about the Peking Duck? Who owned it? You remember who owned it? Janie, you might know that. Well, I think one of the McSweeney kids originally had it. It wasn't, it was called, I can't remember the name of it, but a lot of the interior wood came from the Bishop's House up on South William Street. That's right. You got it. Good for you. All right. Now, okay, we got that one. Now, let's see, let's go back to Burlington. Any of you remember where the Burlington pawn shop was? Yes. It was about, I got my first guitar there in about 1961. It was a couple of doors down from the Flynn Theater. Yep. Yep. Okay. I got another Walorsky question. Viewers remember the street question I have. There's two streets in Burlington that connect. Call 862-3966 in the name of this, I think you did a real estate business. One street has its first name. They're joining streets. The second name 862-3966 if you remember what that street is. Let's see, how about some personalities, Peter? Who was the Silver Fox? The Silver Fox was in Monoski or Burlington? Monoski. We didn't have any Silver Foxes in Burlington. Bressel Niquette. You got it. Yeah. Branford Governor. What year would that have been? Maybe 1958. He ran quite well and didn't lose by that much. And then Burnett Letty, I believe, ran a couple of years later. No. Yeah. Okay. Some other personalities. Who was the long-serving fire chief? Well, you had... Charlie Barber was one. He was the chief of police. That's my next question. Oh, that's right. You had Morris Blanchard for some time and before Morris Blanchard was Paul Gunther. Paul Gunther is the answer I was looking for. Right. Okay. Now, okay, you already mentioned Charlie Barber. You have another prominent police officer in Monoski that you can recall? I remember Chief Joseph Prano. You got it. That's right. That's right. Now, Peter, God, you're doing well. Now, the name Jim Myers. Jim Myers. With you? Jim is a good friend of mine. Yes. And what was his job? Well, Jim at one time was a member of the Monoski City Council. And then when I was a city manager, he was a director of Parks and Recreation, but he also ran the VFW, his quartermaster of the VFW. You got that right, right on. I knew Jim Myers in the National Guard. I knew him then. And there was an incident. I don't know if you remember this. Maybe, Jane, you do too, but somebody ran a tank. Somebody got a tank from the National Guard and ran down Main Street and ran up over a car. You remember that? Is that how they ended up on the lawn of the VFW? No, that's probably a testimonial to that incident, but this person got in the tank and went down Main Street, and it was right at the intersection of West Alley and went up to the back end of an automobile because he couldn't operate it that well. Do you remember that incident? I remember reading about it. It was, anyway, my good friend Reggie Snow ran that. He was in the tank driving that tank, and that was one of the things that happened. I think maybe that's why the tank, the A tank today is on the grounds of the VFW. Okay, let's see. There's a couple of shoe stores in Winooski. Do you remember who ran some of those shoe stores in Winooski at all? DePaul's. DePaul's was one. Yeah, that was just a couple of doors down from my dad and his brother's grocery store. There was also Hanson's. I don't remember that. There was more of men's clothing, but they also had shoes. Okay. Gladstone, so. Yes, I was thinking, Tony Gladstone was on the Parks Commission when I was Superintendent of Parks in Burlington. Yep, Tony is a very active member. Let's see. Callers, I'm going to give you the last chance to respond to the panel. Panel, do you know the answer to my street question? There was two streets in the south end of Burlington that connect. One was the first name of a man, and the other street was the last name of the man. Do you remember what street that might be? The south end of Burlington is a clue. Okay. Ganey? Peter? No, I'm stumped on that one, Bill. Okay. He's the guy that developed the sister's neighborhood, right? I don't know. It could very well be. Yeah. No, that was Paul Kelly, I think, and I don't think it was him. No. Well, okay. How about Alfred Barotta? Oh, Barotta. Alfred Barotta, who was, by the way, a good friend of my grandfather's. Oh, okay. So when they both came over from Italy in the early 1900s, and Alfred eventually got into real estate banking. I think he was a banker, did a praising, and I've got a couple of pictures of my grandfather with him. I think they may have made a trip to Italy together to go back and visit some of their families. Well, I remember him because when my parents bought their first home in the south end, he helped negotiate their mortgage, which was usually really, it's sort of like the Dudley Davis of his day, if you know what I mean. Sure. Hand shake and was good enough. Yeah, that was the deal. So, Bill, I got one for you. The mic is open. You know, as an airport commissioner, this was before your time on the commission, but do you recall that at one time, the city of Winooski sent the city of Burlington a tax bill for the airspace over the city of Winooski that was being used by the Burlington airport? No. And I was mayor at the time, and my father was tax collector. And we met at Winooski Grand Street, handed me the tax bill. Wow, okay. I forget it was for, I don't know, a couple hundred thousand dollars. And did that go to court? Of course, Burlington didn't pay it. I think it went to court, but it was dismissed rather quickly. You know, and also speaking of strange things I have in my notes here, when I was in the council of Burlington, I got the city council to pass a resolution designated Halloween as the fourth Saturday in October. Right. My argument was, listen, we don't want the kids out during the weeknights, they're going trick-or-treating during the week, and we're going to have school the next day, and I persuaded the council to pass that. But you know something? The mayor at the time- I think you know that. Somebody vetoed that. Mayor at the time, I think it might have been my only veto. So, yeah, so- I have an upheld tradition. And that was still a good idea. There's still a lot of people to do that. I've got one for you, Bill, so then we can move to Burlington, but this has a Burlington and Manuski connection. But you know, the Mills and Manuski, they closed. That was quite a catastrophe for Manuski. They closed in 1954. And during their heyday, which was World War II, they employed like 3,000 people. So you can imagine what an economic engine those Mills were. But one of them, the Champlain Mill, was bought, I believe it was like 1978, and it was renovated in 1981. Who was the developer and the purchaser of the Champlain Mill? Wasn't it Ray Peacore? It was. Very good. Yeah. And I think he had his Expo's gift shop down there, didn't he? Yes. Yeah. When they had the farm team here, or the triple A or whatever it was. Yeah. They did a great job on that building. There's some amazing history in there. Yes. All right. Now I've got to go to some of my standby notes about some other things. Does anybody remember O'Halloran's upholstery shop or anything like that? I remember O'Halloran's. I thought it was a furniture shop. Okay. Okay. Where's your store? And where was it located? Was it down by where eventually became the Grand Way and now it's the Walgreens? No, I remember. Peter, you remember where O'Halloran's was? No, I don't. No. I think it was on College Street, almost opposite where the free press was. I think that's where the vacant lot is now to this day. So let's see. Where are we? Some of my notes. Peter, I have a relative that had a hardware store in Wynewski on Main Street. Marquette's. No. I remember Marquette's halfway up the block from Spring Street. Was that the location, the same location, I wonder? No, I don't know. It's the same location. The French name, as you might expect. Visage. Yes. Good. You're all right on that one. Yeah, I think it might have been Visage then maybe Marquette's later. They're after? Okay. Yeah. Tell the producer I've lost my timer, so I don't know where I am on time, so I'll need a cue for that. I've got about eight minutes left, though. Oh, okay. Thank you. Well, okay, let's fill in that. Peter, you got any more challenges for Janie and me? You know, just reflect for a moment on the Burlington Waterfront as you remember it before it was purchased by the city and revitalized. What was it and what were some of the uses? Well, there was a, let's see. First of all, when I was Park Superintendent, I think it said a note that we need to acquire more land. And the city's done a great job in acquiring land on the waterfront. But remember the oil tanks? Yeah. The oil tanks were there for many, many years for one thing. Then you had a junkyard. Right, there was a junkyard right there where Waterfront Park is. Yeah. Yeah. Janie, any memories of the waterfront? Absolutely. I mean, we lived not too far from Battery Park, so we used to go down over what we called the bank down to the waterfront. It was filled with oil tanks. And yeah, there was a junkyard, a few old boat places there that were kind of run down. And every spring, everything would flood. Yeah. You know, Burlington's done an amazing job with the waterfront. They really have. And there was a major court case that determined the future of the Burlington waterfront. What was the name of that? That's a railroad. Joe McNeil had a big long story about what took place there. Is that correct? Well, but the court case was called what? Oh, I don't recall that. It tested the public trust doctrine. Oh, okay. Basically what it determined is about 60 acres of land that we call the waterfront at one time was Lake Champlain and it was filled. And the railroad in the 1840s was given permission to use it for railroad and warfing purposes. And you got a caller, Bill? I do have a caller. I will go to the chat. A caller I think you're on here. I don't hear anything. You're speaking about O'Halloran's furniture. I just wanted to know if anybody remembered Looney's furniture. I remember my mother buying her furniture there and you had to buy the best furniture if you were going to get it from Looney's. I do wonder if they remembered where that was. You were on Berry Street, wasn't it? No. No, it was on North Winiski Avenue. I would say North Winiski Avenue. That's what I remember. Caller, is that correct? Calling you with us? Look, Arthur Looney lived on North Prospect Street and I do remember Looney furniture just above Grant Street, I think, Jane. Wasn't it just above Grant Street? Right in that area, yes. Yeah, okay. Thanks, Caller, for remembering O'Halloran's and Looney Furniture Company because there's a lot of furniture companies around town. That caller sounded like my friend, Mrs. LaVille. Okay, I had one other. You're talking about the lawsuit, Peter. The admin domain, I'll say an albatross on the development of the Moran plant where you can't put a commercial entity on that area. Is that right? The public trust doctrine, yes. So after the Vermont Supreme Court ruled, then the legislature had to define what uses could be allowed on this filled land. And they described a number of uses, but they're mostly public in nature. They're not strictly commercial uses or housing would not be permitted. Or a hotel. So then after that, we negotiated with the railroad to purchase the property. So we purchased first about 11 acres for Waterfront Park and then we purchased the balance of the property owned by the railroad, including the so-called North 40. So it was about 45 acres. And do you remember how much the city paid for that? It was quite a deal. Almost 50 acres of water from real estate for how much? $1. No, it was $1.9 million. But the railroad was demanding like, I think it was $14 million. And we use something called baseball arbitration. Usually when you have a difference of opinion as to value, you end up in the middle. In this situation, we negotiated a process where the city had their appraiser and their number, the railroad had theirs. And then if they were far apart, which you could expect they would be, then a third person would come in and predict the one that was closer in his or her opinion to the real value. And so we ended up being closer and we then had to scramble to raise the money to purchase that property. And we got help initially from something called the trust for public land. So it was quite a time in the city of Burlington. Then shortly before that, we had built the community boat house. Had a crazy idea of buying a barge in Texas, towed it up the Atlantic coast and into Burlington. And on that, we built the community boat house, which now is more than 30 years old and it's standing the test of time pretty well, I think. So Peter, where'd you get the 1.9 million? Do you remember where you got that? Well, initially we got a loan from a national nonprofit organization called the Trust for Public Land. Then there were some interim financing from the Burlington Employees Retirement System, which you can imagine was a bit controversial back then. Ultimately, the voters approved a bond issue which allowed us to purchase it outright. Okay, also on the waterfront thing, I remember the fly ash from the Burlington Electric Department. Either one of you want to comment on that, Janie, what was your experience with that fly ash from the generation of power for the Burlington Electric plant? Well, it became quite a controversial issue, as I remember. Peter probably can speak to it a little bit better than I can. Yeah, and then I came in about the time that it was being transitioned from coal to wood and it was still a problem. Then it was eventually closed down, I believe, in 1983 when Bernie was mayor, I think it ended its life. And then the McNeil plant went on line about the same time. Peter, just a quick question about the railroads. What were the railroads doing with that property prior to the sale? They weren't doing much with it. They were using it as a storage yard and they had rail lines and cars were sitting there. There were many gas and oil storage tanks that were on that property and they weren't being good stewards of it. They were not using it for railroad purposes. They were using it for storage purposes. Okay, that's kind of what I remembered about it. Yeah, I want to get back very briefly to the fly ash thing because the Burlington Electric didn't know what to do with some of that fly ash stuff that wasn't in the air. So they put it in trucks and we made a deal with them to extend North Beach. So for many years, the BED trucks that fly ash from the plant got to North Beach and we extended North Beach by a substantial amount of late frontage. So when you go to the rock point side of North Beach, a lot of that is fly ash from the electric plant. And no idea, huh? That's interesting. Well, I know it's after six. So I don't know if they just pull the plug or how this happened. Hidden there. We're still there. Oh, so anyway, folks. Yes, you are still there. Still there. Okay, as we close on this, I want to recognize two guys who are doing a great job in Burlington history. And that's Bob Blanchard and Pete Chagnan. On their Facebook pages, they do a tremendous job in Burlington Area trivia program. Janie and Peter, would you comment on that? Do you follow that? Jane? I follow Bob Blanchard's Facebook, but not Pete Chagnan's, but I think one's called, Blanchard's is called Burlington Area History. It's very informative and others contribute as well. And I believe the other one is Burlington Memories. It is. Yeah. And I think they both do a wonderful job. It's a great, between the two, you get a real sense of old Burlington history. You know, things that even sometimes went on your own lifetime that you didn't even know about. So it's a really cool, they put a ton of time and effort into it. Just do a fantastic job. Okay, folks. So let's wrap up. Peter Caval, Mayor, longest term Mayor of Burlington. Peter Caval, thank you. Janie, welcome again. You're great participants, folks. Thanks for sharing. Stump the Chumps. See you next time. Janie, good to have you. Thank you, Bill. Take care. Thank you.