 Hello everyone and welcome to the 12 30 to 1 30 p.m. session of the 2023 Open Stimulator Community Conference in this session we are pleased to introduce the presentation a viewer panel and our panelists are myself and Joe Magorak and Mal Burns and Robert Adams. Joe Magorak is the inventor of the ragdoll physics, the MSCS, Stanford, and the Nagel algorithm in TCP in Silicon Valley. Mr. Blue, Robert Adams has been a computer developer and researcher for 40 years, is one of our OpenSim core developers. Mal Burns is host of in world review, a weekly news and discussion program mostly focused on the hyper grid, which has been running for over 15 years. He is now retired and uses his experience to deploy and promote immersive spaces and to support bullets him. Please check out the website found at conference.opensimulator.org for speaker bios, details of the sessions, and the full schedule of events. This session is being live streamed and recorded so if you have questions or comments during the session, you may send tweets to at opensimcc with the hashtag pound oscc23. Welcome everyone. Let's begin the session now. Well thank you there and good to be back here. I'm looking out on the crowd here from my camera and seeing quite a few people so good to have, good to see you all back here. I hope you had a good lunch unless you were gabbing away in the developers session. Right, okay this is what's sort of come to call return of the viewer panel. I'm not sure we really had one last year but it's the kind of thing we've been holding every year with about this time on Saturday just looking at new developments in both viewer technology and the particular viewers we run with and of course we're appropriate as this year with the devs who are an integral sort of part of that equation. So without further ado I have to start to, oh firstly I would, if you see the slide behind is you'll see mention of somebody called Gavin Hurd. He's not actually with us unfortunately but we do have Joe Magorak and Robert Adams. So let me, I know it is done a very good job anyway but maybe Joe and Robert starting with Joe I will hand over to you for a second just to introduce yourselves and your involvement so to speak. Joe maybe first, maybe you need to unmute. Okay maybe I'll move to Robert instead then I can see his mic's off. Well my mic's on yes. So I made my first commit to Alpen Simulator in 2010 and I was, have been an active core developer for a long time in OpenSim so I'm known for doing bullet sim, adding var regions and the distributed scene graph code and lots of other tweaking. After a while I went rogue and wrote things like Convore which is an OR to GLTF scene converter. As I went we're looking at other different systems. I have in the last few years like written the grid directory server for the high fidelity client sources that are currently used in the Vercadia and the Overtay projects. Okay and about a year ago I presented at OSCC of my Bazel viewer project where I was trying to build a viewer using and creating a new protocol. So it was truly going rogue. So I presented that last year and then recently I've been tweaking on bullet sim for users who needed that. And so I've been in OpenSim and Virtual World for a while. Yes, great for me. Joe do we have you on my kit? Yes, am I coming through? Yeah you're coming through fine so maybe like a quick self intro for me. Okay. After a few years of using Second Life and a little bit of OpenSimulator I was sort of annoyed that viewer problems weren't being fixed and I thought I will write my own viewer from scratch in Rust. And three years in I have something that can actually be tried although there's an awful lot it doesn't do yet. I was trying to figure out my basic goal is can we get to the level performance level of GTA 5 not GTA 6 GTA 5 which is 10 years old assuming that you're running on a gamer PC a gamer PC being roughly what the average steam user has. And the answer is you can definitely get there but boy is it a lot of work. Right I'm sure. Okay well I'm not too familiar with some of these technical terms but I'm sure we'll sort them out. So in a way you're both you're both a what's the word um out yes Grand Theft Auto GTA yes. Yeah so you're both out flyers so to speak verging form you know the core depth in a lot of what you do. Now we're entering somewhat very uncertain times I'm inundated by conversations about this recently including earlier. The we have to look at that I mean the viewer is obviously an essential part of the open sim experience. You can't divorce the viewer from the open sim you know code. You can't divorce the the sort of functions from the local functions they all kind of interact to some extent. So I know I'm going to hand over to Leah for a little bit because I know that she's been picking up on a number of things that she thinks or other people think could really affect the future particularly of the viewer and that's particularly why we decided to call her host this year's panel so maybe I can hand over to you there. Thank you Mel and by the way we did have a couple of questions from the audience too. And I'll let our panelists think about those questions as we move into the first topic. The questions by the way are are we thinking about supporting VR headgear at some point and then what about mobile devices you know Linda Lab has been talking for a long time about mobile support and of course people were thinking it would come out by Christmas and it hasn't and of course there's a lot going on there so but that wasn't really the primary question I had for you. My first thought was... I'll just interrupt there just to give my thoughts on the first question what is it affecting our mind? I think there's a depending you know obviously it's not necessarily a dev thing where it's obviously something that developers would presumably bear in mind and that is the end user. I call it helmet land and but also the mobile phone too these are utilities we use in our interconnected world. You know if I want to open up a chat with somebody maybe it's a chat in an open sync grid or in a second life or whatever I like the idea that I can open up that chat on my phone but unless you've got one these dedicated steam things or whatever the idea of actually immersing yourself in a small screen seems to me to be a bit of a wild ghost chase and you mentioned hyperdellacy earlier for example I know Roestel sort of he more or less gave up on that he still controls the audio compression stuff but it's like the time wasn't right for the helmets really they are a particular thing you might have something like you know a scientist as I mentioned earlier may want to wear a helmet not because he wants to wear it for six hours in his lab but because it's a better implement for what he does than the microscope he can render virtually in a helmet far more detail and looking through his microscope but even if he goes to the microscope he's not going to be doing it for six hours a day you know it's going to go to the microscope when he's ready and I think helmet land is really that sort of thing and also I can preempt our dev answers with the fact that second life and open sim it is a fully 3d world but it really is not compatible with the requirements the engine as it were that you need the platform to be on to actually work properly in a helmet so I'll hand back to there for the second question and I'm going to interrupt again well I can I can I can give my view on that I mean since you are familiar with your view I mean I see I see social interaction as a kind of continuum and the continuum comes from sometimes you want a presence that is you want to be in the same room with people you want a presence and you know the headset does does that well and the desktop 3d experience does that well but as you move away from the presence that is things you need to do because you're you want to be there with people you get to text chat and text chat is is less intimate but it's still communicating and then you want to do a store and forward a messaging like mail or twitter or something like that which is less immediate but is still communicating and I think that the the social experience should be built that way that is sometimes you want to be there and you know if people want to be there on their phones you know where they're looking at this little screen and they can see the other people that is part of the whole experience that they you know want to partake in and so I see that you know we're providing tools to the sort of connectivity that people want with other people and that it can range from the headset where you you know are really experiencing the 3d thing to that little screen on your phone and it just depends on the use usage that people need to communicate I would sense to very much agree the utility really um your thoughts on this jay jay on music does someone address me yes how do you see your thoughts on the question um well since I have to have to make it work technically and probably don't have the time um I am somewhat negative on supporting VR head here there's a lot of stuff you have to do um I mean there are lots of social issues and I would look at what's happening over in the VR chat land and as I typed in text watch fia's the virtual reality show fia has been using VR since she was 17 or so and so VR native and is very comfortable wearing VR gear to the point of even trying sleeping in VR gear yes this is a thing in VR chat people will go to bed in full VR gear and in world there's a group of people sitting there lying on the floor on a big bed not really doing anything and people find this comforting so um I did I did um I ran the after it on my show a couple of weeks ago there was somebody manufacturing a helmet where I'm a software to go with it is which is designed for exactly that it's headgear for the bed you know what next I say but yeah I can quite believe that the question outside of full immersion is the the risk of falling down is high um about five to ten percent of the population will barf and you can't do anything else while you're using it yeah that's the main thing yeah also to my mind and I wonder how important this is I think it may be and that is um full immersion is what it implies in other words it feeds you smells maybe and taste and vision and sound and everything else but the problem is if you get full immersion to that degree you've actually cut yourself off in the real world the organic world you know if you're immersed in sound like you know old-fashioned music headphones you don't necessarily hear people moving around by you if you've got a helmet on their headsets with some sort you can't see if somebody's gonna come in through the window and nick something and um very much eventually they're speculating that you know like 3d printing we can use substrates of some sort like a roma therapy oils where you'll put three in a you know like a printer three inks but a roma therapy and they'll be able to mix up any scent you want with those three primary oils and so you'll have a headset which also has a nose attachment uh who knows when the taste attachment comes I don't know I don't know I suspect all these things will be invented but the question is how how much do we really want to you know go with that but to come back to the question I mean I know there is a I know somebody I don't think it's one of you that actually does do a sort of 3d viewer for Second Life and Opensim control something I think it's called does anybody know it mimics the experience of you know using say Opensim or Second Life in in in a helmet but of course the the physics the the whole engine and stuff are not really meant for that and it seems to me to be a rather different experience for you know if you're lucky enough to have a helmet world where people have legs I think most do you know they don't work the same way as we do with James what would it take to make your viewer all the way sorry who said that so how do you mean all the way well I mean there's there seem to be several viewers that are 50 plus complete how can we get one of them to a hundred percent good good question honey of you that question is for Joe and he says money yes it's um well inevitably yes funding for for anything and everything well and that's what's true of the I've been um lurking around the crystal frost project which is a viewer that uses live metaverse and unity and essentially the main developers have a job you know they have to pay rent and so they don't have much time or focus on the the viewer to actually work you know to be able to do it and they have a patreon and it brings in a few bucks but they really can't get it all the way to a hundred percent because they have a life yes of course and there's anybody got any ideas about how possibly funding for development on at least on an acceptable scale might be achieved I know that I know for example we've had this discussion in the past and a lot of the core devs I guess they just reluctance give up their independence you know they don't want to be employed by somebody maybe by paying them to taste what's happening um you know so I know it's a bit of hostility there but then again without that kind of one individual maybe dusting it as a hobby they may even be able to do it full time without being paid but others that's not the case for everybody of course so it's the can you see even if you particularly think of any way that your time could be remunerated um you know in ways that it isn't at the moment deathly silence rules here I see so you're asking them if they can find a funding source themselves or what do you what do you mean there yeah well I suppose I am in a way I'm actually suggesting that any suggestions that you might be looking for um not so much needing funding but any particular funding sources that you think would be worth approaching either yourself or as a group well I mean given that it's an open source project and that there are lots of users you know it's the usual thing of if everybody put in five bucks there would be a lot of but a lot of money um you know but how to organize that you know and and you know there were in the early days of OpenSim there were a bunch of corporations IBM and Intel and even Linden Labs was helping the open source community build out the virtual world and support people working on it but that doesn't seem to be as big a thing now so it was um it's funny at the time I guess Rose Dale was still CEO I mean he said to me that there just wasn't enough people on OpenSim to be worth doing that now I think they probably take the opposite approach but their concerns have changed they're more concerned about protecting inventory and things although to be honest having an export function would benefit creators in second life if they could sell to OpenSim for example but the issue then people say well what's to stop the copy box working and you know people already go to take stuff out one way or another sell them bring it in here well and that's another question that I kind of have is that um the reason to work on an OpenSim viewer is to support the OpenSim community I mean we we're a certain niche I mean there's the VR chat there's the Minecraft people and there's the you know there are so many virtual worlds out there now that you know everyone has a few thousand people in them at least and OpenSim is its own particular community and the reason to make a viewer is to support and help that open source community I mean one reason OpenSim exists is because it is open source and people can hack on it they can't hack on VR chat they can't hack on second life they can you know this is this is in the community so people can do research and do education and build their things so we want to support this community so you know do we really want you know how best to support this particular community we don't have to solve the virtual world in general problem we have to solve how to support our community and you know in some sense it could be that if everyone gave up on their viewers and focused everything on Firestore or Data or you know one of the viewers um that that would that could be enough I see say uh five dollars what did you say a month or a year I just made up a number yeah it doesn't sound like very much it's matter of it is organizing of course but it's actually um convincing people that five dollars is a whatever um service purpose I mean maybe we need maybe we need our own our own only fans channel so everyone gives their ten dollars and so we have a million dollars and that works out there is one thing that occurred to me recently and I've been repeating it all over the place actually um because it hasn't occurred to me until a few weeks ago and that is you know we've had everybody in their dog has got a metaverse of their own now so the idea of an interconnected metaverse is way gone you know all the misinterpretations and everything now everybody wants you know they always want to decentralize but um we want to be the centralized controller of the decentralized world you know just total blind sort of what they want but I did notice one thing of all these worlds that have been coming and going and really some of them have tiny viewers they just make out they got lost only second life and more importantly open sim have had one aspect to that that none of the other worlds have got and that is the immediacy of collaboration I can rest at prim I can give you permissions you can reshape it I can give somebody else permissions they can texture it people can work together not just having a meeting but actually semi-physically you know working with our permit assets or whatever you can't do a mesh but you can with the the prim stuff and none of the other worlds so they all involve going into unity and building your landscape and then importing it or using other inworld tools but it doesn't happen in real time you got to go away create bring it in and we have a viewer but not to mention the platform I have to include second life with open sim but we have a platform and a viewer system that allows us to just do things totally immediately with other people we're not just meeting them and collaborating going to concerts having meetings or whatever we can actually build together the sculptor can take the prim and then the artist can texture it and things and all sorts of different things can come into play but of course if you are going on what you're saying Robert if we're going to pitch the client as it being a particular thing I kind of wonder if that's central thing that nobody else has replicated except second life of course might be the thing to concentrate on but you know we're developing a viewer for a world where you can do stuff in real real time not just import a mesh how do you feel about that jay for instance jay oh um well we're less real time we would like to be because we don't really have good inworld building we had that with prims but you couldn't do that much once people had to use blender it just became too complicated for 95 percent of the user base yeah you know on that note I'm going to chime in because I teach uh as you know 60 classes here in in the virtual world and in every class my my students create projects and the reason they do is because the power of creation is powerful for idea generation and for synthesis of of the concepts that we're exploring and they're not mesh developers and they don't use blender in fact we're in a totally different discipline so they're focusing on different kinds of problems but uh being able to design and simulate even prem based designs and to create content and to shape it into experiences the virtual world's an aggregator of so many technologies they can weave and blend so much in here that it creates something very powerful we put it on reserves we take it to conferences we use it as experiences and and students really connect with that it transforms them it does something that auto-sharmer from the mit presencing institute calls this social interaction that's so critical to understanding you know and and experiencing um and remembering uh over time you know we try to remember 75 to 90 percent of what we do so that uh we can use this and apply this in new problems new situations so my point from my perspective the viewer is critical because it empowers us to get our work done it empowers us to um uh you know not only navigate communicate and interact with objects but to be a creator and that creation is the powerful difference between my work in VR with students and my work in virtual worlds with students fascinating I know it was a little little heavy but it's just the notion I am so thankful to the viewer developers because without them I wouldn't be able to do all that and I mean I'm fascinated I can completely see that but also in a way you're renovating these sort of limited use for the helmet thing how are you you can well I've been studying head mount display devices you know since 95 mal you know I did research in it and for usability for new user interface paradigms for rethinking how we use technology and what it is that magic that the immersive experience gives us how that transforms and correlates to what we do here in these 3d worlds and you know you can simulate immersion in many different ways the question is do you have to have it all centered around your body in such a way that you must wear this device that truly makes you a little bit uncomfortable after using head mount display devices for over 27 years I could tell you right now that no matter how much money I throw at the problem at some point there will be discomfort those deleterious side effects that Joe and Mr. Blue talk about and the use cases for how important it is that we feel comfortable we have a sense of presence and awareness of others see in VR I cannot see myself even if I could see my hands or my upper torso it's not the same you know I don't have that same deep immersion when it comes to sense of self and oddly enough you know in the early years I didn't focus on identity creation with classes we were all business right and then I learned that people cannot learn comfortably if they're not aware of themselves and how others see themselves and experience them and so what we have to devote some time to identity definition and creation yeah I think we have to recognize where a point of time where we do some things need to improve but other things actually don't they're good the way they are despite the limitations I mean oh yeah one of the helmet manufacturers and oh and of course the the apple one when it comes comes out you know it's got a system where it can project on to the what is normally hidden the screen you can see the screen inside but they can see your likeness on the outside whether it's a true likeness or not I'm not quite sure but apparently that's not going down too well because that's it seemed to be Apple's idea was that the helmet itself will have a projection of your face on it which will therefore increase your presence but in fact you don't really need it for most things you know you just it's like a big screen thing you just pull out everything and they surround you but why why can't you what were you able to do with that device that you can't already do with like having two minuses or three minuses which is extreme but it's you know you don't you just don't need that device so I think um there well I've got um you said it was another question or probably by now quite a few questions from the audience we better have well the other the other part was Lisa's question of mobile yet go right ahead Joe it was Robert I guess something I had mentioned before is one of the reasons that people want to build a new viewer is to have control over the UI and that your comments about building and interaction and that sort of stuff I think a lot of people have a lot of ideas about how the user interface should be and what linden lab is giving us is not everyone's dream and so if we had an open source viewer then people could do more with the the user interface to the virtual world and I think there's a lot of um interesting work that could be done there there's a very um I think linden I was really messed up about 10 12 years ago when they they first brought the new so-called new viewer in and they had the thing that slid in at the side and everybody hated it and actually the current viewers still have a business out as legacy but not all of it but something I do and I think to your point um Robert it is um is an example of that I think I can actually um there's a print in world and I flatten it out to make it into the shape of say you know a chat window and then um on the media of a print surface um I put something like um the mobile version of telegram and then I wear it as a hug so it's something I'm doing in the viewer with the server side primes and media on the print but I create my own chat window to tell you around that I just wear as a hug in world because it's using the web the web link to put media on the print so it's an example of the devious ways one can get around these things upon one but I think I understand what you mean it wouldn't it be easy if we had a drag and drop system to drag and drop a palette or um a window that you know um especially for connectivity with um the used to be um a thing in open sim that allowed you to chat with people in second life you had to have this particular widget in both platforms there was a version for both but once you were wearing it you could access you know anybody wearing it could access their friends in either platform as it were um I don't think much came of that but it's another example of a stealth way of getting around the interoperability thing so the more a viewer as you say can include those things I would think the better that might be another way to go it also depends of course on how much which both of you maybe have thoughts on how much is going to be client side and how much is going to be serve side at the moment we've got this balance um you know when it comes to speed and moving around and doing things we're relying on the ability client side that we have with the computer we're using or whatever but when it comes to a lot of communication tools and stuff that need to go up and down then we're relying on what there is server side is there anything for example that is currently server side that could be offset um to client side to improve speed things up for example both of you on that maybe lots of things lots of things um I think I mean architecturally I mean one of the things I tried tried to play with in basal was splitting the rendering functions from the world functions but that's a difficult problem because some world functions you need to have real close to the renderer like you know you're in your 3d virtual world thing and you touch your your wrist device and the screen shows up so that you can change settings that can't be on the server side that has to be as close to the rendering engine as possible there are exist uh are new technologies that can be used to I guess bridge that gap to allow things to be pushed towards the renderer or maybe towards the server um I personally like web assembly but that's um just a technical detail so I mean I think if we really if someone wanted to rethink the viewer and be able to separate the rendering engine you know whether it be Unity or Godot or or whatever from the world logic a system of being able to do that because really what happens is viewers tend to become monolithic because like you say there's this question of what has to be close to the renderer that is really specific to the particular world that you're viewing at and that just tends to to draw things closer together so it becomes one monolithic program so that the world code can talk directly to the renderer but I think architecturally there are some interesting directions to go in there and I think the technology exists again it's just a bunch of work. Joe do you have any thoughts on that separation of client service ideas? Well that doesn't really reflect on how viewers work internally the renderer is not really that big of an issue the keeping the model of the world that the viewer has in sync with the model of the world that the simulator side has is actually most of the effort um and that's where the network bandwidth goes right and where we are where we want to do things locally the main problem is that um you can only do things locally if they only affect the local user that is if you're going to touch your watch and have something pop up do other people get to see that happen when you do it if so it has to go through the server? Of course yeah yes the mechanics of how it works is uh it's fairly obvious but I mean I'm doing you know I'm taking in terms well that process of touching your watch and the other person standing next to you see you do it that means it's got to go up info it's got to go to the server and come back down in as real near as real time as possible but well yeah but the latency questions are different but yeah are there any tricks to speed up that sort of process okay the one other thing that comes up to mind the elephants in the room we haven't got round to discussing it here yet and that is uh the almighty AI lurking on the horizon now um well we had a lone wolf this morning mentioning um you know the way you can use uh oh actually well it's not mesh but you can get the AI to actually generate giants reigns for him and things like that but my thought here I mean um I've been talking a lot of people about this you know it's gonna affect almost everything we do and you know how much so is really you know we've got to handle it with a certain amount of conscience and wearing us but um I think well the first things it did of course was you ask it a question it gives you a reply based on sourcing every possible answer from everywhere and presumably estimating the best answer but could could what we know already it can be used to create code and as a utility for a developer could um do you think there's any to be gained in the future where you know instead of doing a lot of hand coding that I know you guys would probably have to do at the moment do you see AI being a partner in making that process quicker um or do you really think it could even mess things up and make it worse I mean people have mixed views on this but I'm trying to think of it in terms of you know coding but a viewer particularly that you know the server-sized stuff that goes with it is it something we should dread or do you see possibilities there for improving things and possibly cutting you know cutting time to do things which as you say cost money Joe can go first on this one if you've got you well um I expect that large language models will take over coding typical web type interfaces over the next year or two um because those are pretty standardized and there's a lot of training data for them to look at it doesn't help too much with things which are fairly close to being unique such as you know the the interior or something like open simulator there aren't a hundred things like it you can look at and borrow from which is basically how all EMS work right exactly yes by starving by starving them of information we can be straight what they do I'll bet your thoughts on that well um I mean there are lots of new tools um I don't don't write an assembly code anymore I write in higher level languages and now I wouldn't try writing in higher level languages without an IDE and I've gotten pretty used to co-pilot and so I expect the tool environment is just going to get richer you know I mean um Joe mentioned the the problem of synchronization protocols um you know an artificially intelligent synchronization protocol I could understand happening you know that adapts and learns and does the right thing to make the best synchronization performance in a particular situation um and I expect those to come and happen um and uh I think it'll make things easier and better and faster right so yeah I think it swings around about it's on that point we'll have to wait and see because it's the biggest thing and it's tremendous but it's still early days and it's developing at the speed of light you know nothing nothing is you know developed about the kind of speed that this is happening I've got to admit okay um we have about 10 minutes left so I'm gonna head back to Lear on the question front have we got any new questions or any you forgot to give us well I had heard and of course this might be just a rumor maybe but I remember in one of the core dev meetings someone bringing up the the thought that the um Firestorm Mac um viewer might be going offline there might not be support for it so we were wondering what are the implications there and I do want to let the audience know that Gavin Hurd was invited to the panel but had a had a conflict and he has been working on an update to the day-turned viewer for the Mac users so he did have a commit that was posted I don't know what the current state is of that but we're very interested in our Mac community having support also right and so um so I wanted to ask the viewers what they thought about this and and where where they think we're going maybe they know more about it than I do actually while I'm at it and you better monitor this better than me I think Lear um let's you in the audience in text chats um just type yes if you use a Mac to access virtual worlds just so we get an idea of the number of views so let's see lots of yeses or maybe none as the case may be um I'm nice for that matter but it seems that the Mac may be the biggest problem here cherry says no for example siri says siri says yes um I know in our group we're using Mac servers but let's face it we're running Linux yeah you can't think of them the same thing on certain levels yeah how about your users k do you ever get any Mac users from school from your schools no so maybe maybe firestorms decision to stop supporting the Mac viewer is based on the fact that they just don't get a lot of downloads right well no I heard earlier was it wasn't it it was here we immediately before we came in the dev chat um the um basically they don't have a person uh there's that one person who can handle the mac code it's rather like uh Jessica always says to me when it comes to firestorms sort of you know um I've got 80 people working with me only one of them is remotely interested in open sim and that's me you know was her whole team of 80 are really you know they're not paid they're volunteers so they really do what they want and they're all developing for um second life basically and so you know there's only one person there and it sounds to me that this is a similar case with the the mac thing they they go drop the mac client presumably they're talking to the mac client on both platforms second life well and and the mac environment I mean they're kind of ahead of everybody else in that you know like I'm building bullet sim binaries for open sim and the mac stuff has to be taken separately and built on a machine and signed on that same machine in order to be able to be run the mac environment um that is coming to the windows environment you you know now you try to download binaries and uh the windows system says no you don't this isn't signed this isn't certified um and so it's just going to get harder over harder for us distributors who are you know compiling distributing things uh to adapt to these environments and so I can see that you know the mac environment is a little harder now in that you have to have somebody who has a developer's license and signs the binaries and that'll happen on windows before before our lifetimes to to what is then to um developers say um also something for windows and um standalone and it can then be rebuilt for the mac without starting from square one or do you really have to start from square one for those platforms no it is pretty straightforward I mean they do build I mean I do build bullet sim for the mac along with everything else it's just um uh that I can't do the signing step because I'm not a mac developer and you know there'll be little differences that a mac person would know that a windows person would know for instance shame ready uh by any other questions from the audience there we're really coming to an end here so they have to be very person intelligent questions if we have any well why don't we ask end on this note what is your wish list for the future what would you like to see possible not I know money Joe but in addition to money what are the resources and things you need from the community to make your work stronger or the environment to get their act together okay there you go so so the technology you're writing in and and uh architecting for you need them to to make more decisions come out with better releases our interfaces what else well the real problem is I'm doing everything in rust and I'm using the graphic stack which uses something called ren 3 and w gpu and vulcan and of those only vulcan is well supported um w gpu has about five or six developers and ren three has only one really and he he went off and got married that's the end of everything in it productivity is way down yeah so um anything else on that probably no I don't I don't think so I'm I'm not working on uh I'm just helping some of the viewer projects and probably uh some of the viewer projects um could use more help and um I guess I have a I have a few urgs that I can give to help viewers that one final question then for me actually um that uh what's it um forget his name Clark jc clark uh the early days there was who there wasn't there and there was the early versions of open sim um I uh Leah you must know uh jc uh there was one central person you're thinking of justin clark kasey justin clark kasey sorry you know so yeah geriatric memory job there right justin um there was a real ripple when he left because he he not only spoke in the name and his language about things which helped but um he was he was the center um maybe ubis is coming close to really you know look at that graph we're showing in the advert breaks um you know how ubis hopping around from one place to the other for 365 days a year but um justin really was regarded as a center there he'd take all the code that was being submitted and harmonize it and things like that from what I gather and not being a techie um is there anybody you really feel except maybe ubis um who's performing a kind of function for all you devs in that regard these days being as those you are the ones doing it well um there obviously isn't and no one has stepped up and you know it's it's also part of the personal views uh you know in in some sense all of us uh the tech tech people fall on the aspergers spectrum somewhere um and so you know having someone with good uh people skills as well as you know organizational skills the tech skills that's the hard thing to do and it's also a big commitment it takes a lot of time as um as he found out yeah it's a perfect match though any any thoughts on that jay well you don't want to name names either i'm sure so we need somebody um right okay am i getting all the alerts so one minute left and everything else so um i think we're better round up uh i'd like to thank um uh leo will take us out when i've rounded up so um basically i'd like to um thank you robert um so robert adams um i don't know other mr blue otherwise known as and uh thanks to uh joe magarac i hope i've got the evidence that you're right and um yeah thank you both for being here and um yeah i think this is where we close it and uh leo takes over to do the uh conference bit thank you mal and thank you to joe mr blue and mal for a great panel and and to our audience for the wonderful questions and thoughts about the future tomorrow there'll be another panel session in the morning so stay tuned for that as a reminder to our audience you will want to check out the conference dot open similar dot org to see what is coming up on the conference schedule you won't want to miss our next session which begins at 130 in this keynote region and it's entitled building empathy in the virtual world we also encourage you to visit the oscc 23 poster expo in the oscc expo three region to find accompanying information on presentations and to explore the hypergrid resources in osc c expo two region along with our sponsor and crowd funder booths located throughout all of the osc c expo regions thank you again to our panelists and to you the audience