 नमस्कार नूस्क्रिक में आपका स्वागत है, आज हमारे कहास महमान है, जो एक वकील है, अनस तन्वीर. अनस तन्वीर is the founder of the ICLU, Indian Civil Liberties Union. इनका एक परिचे ये है कि अनस जी ने काफी समें से NRC और citizenship Amendment Bill में इंवोल रहे है, अनस अपका स्वागत है. जर से बत़े है कि आसाम में जब NRC काप प्रोसिस चला ता, तब ICLU उस में इंवोल ता, आप की क्या रुप्रे का थी उस में? ICLU got involved after the list was published in real sense. मतलग, final list आनेगे. When the final list was published, we realised from the social media and other places that there is a lot of panic on ground. And panic never helps anyone. So, in order to just elate some fears, just to tell people that they are in safe hands, that nothing is lost. You are not a foreigner already, you still have a chance to go for an appeal. To explain to them that procedure, we shared a helpline with another organisation called United Against Hate. They have a helpline called Helpline Against Hate. So we shared that helpline with them and we first of all through speaking to them or asking them for their documents and telling them there is no issue with their document. Everything is alright. Telling them what exactly is wrong and what went wrong and how it can be remedied, what grounds can be taken in appeal. So we started with working on those things and gradually we also moved on ground. We set up legal aid camps in districts of Uddharang, Udhalgudi in Assam. And in doing so, we became, from what I know, one of the first civil liberty organisations to be on ground after the list was published. We catered to close to 300-500 people in a single day and accompanying us were students of National University Assam who were a day before a visit were given paralegal training by me and my members of my organisation. So it means that the civil society organisations try to spread awareness and oppose the government if something is wrong. So how is your group different? We don't oppose the government. We are not activists. We are pure lawyers. We are simply advocates. We don't get on grounds. We don't protest. If we see a problem, we always know and one must always know that there will be a legal solution to that. My whole mandate is that that legal solution should reach to the beneficiary, to the person who requires that. And that it should reach if that person cannot afford. It should reach in a manner, in a pro bono manner. Okay. But then even the NRC in Assam has excluded 19 lakh people. Yes. So who can help them now? Do they have a way? Because due to poverty, often all the other routes are close to people. Look, there is a lot of confusion. For Assam, the NRC rules are in place. Supreme Court has monitored this whole exercise. This whole exercise has only been possible because of Supreme Court. Now those who have been excluded, they have a chance to go for an appeal before the Foreigner Tribunal. How Foreigner Tribunal's function is a separate story in itself. It is very disturbing if I share the details. It's very disturbing because even prior to this whole NRC exercise being completed and becoming a part of mainstream discussion, the exercise of exclusion through Foreigner Tribunal was continuing. And I as an individual, as an individual advocate have been handling these matters since 2014. So that means that when the NRC is now, there is talk of it being extended to the whole country. And again in Assam. So those people for whom we were ready to file appeal, we got their documents, we prepared some format for appeal as per the civil procedure code. Because even the rules for appeal is not given, the format is not given anywhere. So we went according to the civil procedure code, we prepared a draft format for appeal. We were in the process of preparing appeal for those who have sent their documents to us or have spoken to us. And those who are eligible for that legal aid. But recent statements that were made in the parliament or otherwise indicate that there will be a fresh NRC in whole of India including Assam. So we have put Assam's operations on hold for now. CAA, NRC and NPR. What is the connection between these three things? First of all, Gangadhar is Shaktimaan, NRC is NPR. And I am not saying this. I am not saying this myself. मेरे पास ये है की 26 नेवेंवर 2014 को, these are PIB statement that says NPR is just the first step towards NRC. PIB को, याने की प्रेस न्फरमेशन भीरो. न्फरमेशन भीरो, on behalf of MHF. नाव, on 21st April 2015, in Lok Sabha in response to an un-start question, the response was NPR will be master database for NRC. On 9th October 2019, in a response to an activist, MHA sent a clarification stating that NRC will be a race of all citizens which will be created from NPR And said that this exercise will be conducted in all of India, including all the UTs except for the state of ASA. So, we need to understand, in 2010-11 there was a census that was conducted. As per the information available on the website of MHA, apparently a sort of a token or receipt was given to people, a certificate of sort or small document. People were asked to keep that safely, no one remembers that they were given this slip. And as per the information available on this website, this token or this slip might play a very important role for NPR 2020. Why would it be important? Because if the rules are not modified and if what is on the website is correct, then you will have to present that receipt for you to be included in NPR. But however, there has been statements made, there has been response that said that NPR will be conducted as a house to house enumeration exercise. So, if that happens it will still be better because I have spoken to quite a few people in UP, Delhi etc. And no one seems to remember that they were given any receipt. Okay, and what is this receipt supposed to prove that you have counted in the census? That you were also here in 2010, you have counted in the census, you have given these details, beyond this detail, like if someone has died, someone has been born, then you will modify it and prepare a final draft. That means, for some people this is retrospectively happening, they have been given a piece of paper which they don't remember, they don't know whether it is kept or not, but suddenly it can be very important. This is your mistake, because you have to find the paper even before 1987, if you have to keep it, people don't even keep it. There is a saying that if you keep a piece of paper and a piece of paper and a piece of paper and a piece of paper, then where will you get that piece of paper? This is a thin slip, it is with someone, it is not with anyone, it is not with my family, and since when will we be able to keep it? So now tell me one thing, protests are going on all over the country, somewhere there is a small fire going on with this issue, people are worried that we will be able to keep our citizenship or our citizenship out of our hands. So, what can be the legal solution in this? Look, the legal solution is that you have to keep your paper, this is the first and most important thing. We are not getting invites from all over the country, where we have our local resources, in law universities, especially in law universities, because there is a legal aid committee in law universities, whose work is to give people legal aid and awareness. Our plan is that we train them with regard to NRC and these students can hold different legal aid camps in their areas, in their state and so that this thing can have a better outreach. But we don't know what documents we need. As for now the law is pretty clear on citizenship. Even if we leave CA aside, there is section 3 of Citizenship Act that determines your citizenship by birth. Section 31A says anyone born before 1st July of 1987 in India is an Indian citizen. After 1st July 1987 till 2004 anyone born in India will have to prove that he was born in India and also that either of his parent is an Indian citizen. That anyone was born after 2004 will have to prove that either of his parent is an Indian citizen and the other is not an illegal immigrant. This is where CAA becomes very dangerous and unconstitutional because what CAA does that by amending section 2, it changes the definition of illegal immigrant. Now those who came to India, those who are non-Muslims from Bangladesh, Pakistan and Afghanistan those who came before 31st December 2014 will not be considered to be an illegal immigrant. Effectively putting those kids born after 2004 the Muslim kids at a disadvantage with non-Muslims kids because I have to as a Muslim kid born after 2004 I will have to prove that my parent is not an Indian citizen, is not an illegal immigrant either of my parents is not an illegal immigrant. That burden is not on a non-Muslim child born after 2004. So this is how it becomes very unconstitutional under Article 15 and I have not even started on basic structure in Article 14. So you have also got a network of lawyers, other people who are helping you or what is it? No, we have a team of lawyers all under 30, prominently mostly female lawyers and we have a network in now almost every affected area of UP affected by protest, police brutality, violence and in Jharkhand, in Maharashtra, in Assam we have a very small network in Punjab and other places as well. What are you trying to do over there? What is the effort all about? Now the effort, the focus, it was started with the focus on lynching to ensure the implementation of Supreme Court guideline in the lynching cases but right now we have a twin focus this NRC exercise will be unprecedented nowhere in the world an exercise of this magnitude has been conducted in Assam alone, the NRC that they are saying that we will scrap it caused a loss of 1400 crore to Exchequer and they want to scrap it. Assam is a small state think about a state like Uttar Pradesh and think about the burden it is going to put on Exchequer so we want to be present everywhere there is a need everywhere there is a person in distress and who can be provided any legal aid whose fundamental rights, whose right under the law we can secure and to strengthen the rule of law as much as we can one of the issues that will no doubt it will arise is that when you go to a panchayat to seek your documentation then there will be a refusal or a denial or a delay or a demand for certain kind of favours for giving these documents is it at this stage that you can actually help people yes because everywhere we go we are mostly invited so there is already understanding that there are people who want to get their documents in order and this is beyond the religion caste sect because everyone is scared, everyone is fighting they may or may not show it but every family is looking for documents every family is trying to find if there is any problem in the document if there is a typographical error because the experience from Assam is now before everyone in India and there is no reason why that Fiasco that issue will not be replicated again and can you explain again why it is that only the Muslim should not be worried why every citizen of India should be worried about NRC and CAA when both are combined as thing stands now and leaving alone the statements made by the leaders only purely on the law the line for the NRC I mean submission of the document for NRC will be secular just like that was for demonetization it will be completely secular everyone will have to get into that line now this will effectively and demonetization was still a small thing compared to this this is the core, this is citizenship no one wants to lose citizenship once you lose it you cannot go anywhere as a migrant so no one wants to take that risk everyone will have to present their documents and NRC list will be out those who will be left as per law as it is today those who will be left out of NRC the Muslims will have to prove that they were Indian citizens born in India before 87 and otherwise and non-Muslim will have to either prove this or will have to prove that they came from Bangladesh Pakistan and Afghanistan now the question is how do you prove that before a foreigner tribunal where the burden of proof is on you where a small typographical error will get you out what could be the document that you will present to prove that you are an Indian citizen that you came from these countries and the bigger question is out of crores of non-Muslims how many actually came from outside it would be very difficult for someone who lives in say Kerala or Tamil Nadu to claim that they came from Afghanistan exactly even in UPE, Haryana and other places like Punjab I understand Bengal I understand Kashmir I understand Gujarat also I may understand what about other places South India how will you prove that you came from Afghanistan so basically effectively putting them also in danger the fundamental question is that as a lawyer do you see the NRC process actually does it make legal sense to have such an exercise not at all this is the most baseless exercise ever for any legislative action to take place there has to be some objective there has to be some data backing it there has to be some study backing the need for that we don't have any in Assam at least there was some issue it could be justified even though I don't justify even NRC Assam but it could still be justified it was taken as an exception in any case an exception in any case for rest of India do you have any data how many illegal immigrants are in India and if you have data if you have identified them then please throw them out no one is standing for illegal immigrants here but for say 10,000 illegal immigrants that there may be you are putting citizenship of 2 billion Indians I mean you are threatening the citizenship of 2 billion Indians so this makes no sense at all and coupled with the stress that you are giving to the population giving putting the population a young population that you could use for so so many things you could use for something better as you claim to be a Vishwaguru you could have used for that but instead you are asking this whole lot to stand in the line and submit the document and be stressed about the objections be stressed and then if there is an objection be called again and again explain yourself and then be stressed about the final result I want to draw your attention to one more provision which is that anybody can raise an objection yes in Assam this happened in Assam on the eve of the closing of the objection thousands of objections were filed by different organizations against people you mean people were protesting that so and so should not be on the list yes and this is xenophobia this is complete xenophobia it's one thing to let people submit their document and come out of it whether they are included in the anasi or not it's the other thing that you go behind them with vengeance that no I will push you out I will ensure that you are pushed out and this will create such a fissure because anyone on either of the spectrum can file the objection against anyone so a huge chance of creating a lot of social unrest thank you for talking to us and we are about this important issue thank you very much for joining us click