 The session today is entitled Leading Global Innovation and here we're going to be talking about innovation and global innovation from a country and a regional perspective. So how do we see the trends playing out? In the future can we see different countries, different regions standing up and driving innovation, perhaps in a very different way to how we see that today? I'm just want to flag that this session is on the record so we welcome the reporting press here and the session will be live streamed as well for posterity. The way we are going to run the session is quite unusual as well. We're going to run it as a debate which means that I'm going to put my wonderful panellists on the spot. I'm going to ask some of them to argue passionately with enormous emotion for a question. I'm going to ask others to argue against emotion. Later in the debate we might allow them to nuance their points a little bit more but in the first instance we really want to hear why they believe that a particular trend may come true. We're going to test how convincing they are because at the start of this session we're going to ask you your view and then ask you the same question at the end of the session and see if you changed your mind and how convincing the speakers were. Now we're unfortunately going to do our question in a little bit of an old-fashioned way. We're going to ask you to raise your hand proving of course again that humans can be far more sophisticated than machines. The question we're going to pose during the next hour is will the West soon be surpassed as the world's innovation powerhouse? Will the West soon be surpassed as the world's innovation powerhouse? I have to say that those of the panel who are arguing yes may have things slightly easier following the Premier's speech just earlier today but I look forward to hearing all of the arguments. So to start off with I would like everyone in the audience here to raise their hand if you think that the West will soon be surpassed as the world's innovation powerhouse. Put your hands up now. Very few in fact I would say that's a 2% Yes. Very scientific. And so will the West soon be surpassed as the world's innovation powerhouse? Those of you who think no. Okay that's the majority and others who have not put their hand up are either undecided or asleep. Okay quite a few of you as well. So let's see how that changes towards the end of the hour. So let me introduce our wonderful speakers here today. I have just to my right Kevin Sneeder who is the Chairman of McKinsey and Company's Asia Practice and Asia Office. I have to my right Chen Jianglang who is the Vice President of the Association of Science and Technology here in China. And I just saw recently you had a fantastic event inviting teenagers from all around the world to talk about their own innovations which was quite extraordinary. To my left Amy Wilkinson is the author of The Creator's Code. I was delighted to see that one of the six principles was about keeping in touch with a diverse network. So this is very good and I believe you're just about to publish a new book which perhaps we can get some little bits of insight from today. Opposite I have Michael Danberg who is the Minister for Innovation in Sweden. Sweden of course as you know comes in the top 10 of pretty much every innovation index because of a vast range of factors. So it's very well placed to argue that the West will not be surpassed. And Francis Gurry joins us. He's the Director General of the World Intellectual Property Organization which of course protects intellectual property rights and is one of the co-authors of the Global Innovation Index which ranks countries to see how they are doing on the basis of innovation and your report will be coming out just next week I think so we look forward to seeing how that changes. Last year at 2014 you said that China will be very soon on the top 25 I believe so we'll be interested to hear your views here. So as you recall I'm going to call on each person in turn and they are going to be arguing vehemently for or against one of these positions okay. So to start with Kevin I'm going to call on you. I would like to understand why you think yes actually everyone in this room or the majority of people in this room are wrong and the West will soon be surpassed as the world's innovation powerhouse. Thank you well it's probably not a good idea to tell the audience they're wrong so instead what I'm going to say is they're open-minded and when they hear the facts they will join the case that says if the West has not already been surpassed then it soon will be because I think it is important to have a look at the different types of innovation and then just ask ourselves the question is the question that's being asked already been answered with a yes and at least half the times because I think if you look at the different types of innovation that are out there we have consumer based innovation we have engineering based innovation we have science based innovation and we have processor efficiency types of innovation. I want to take a moment and talk about the four because I'm going to argue today that in two of them the case has already been made that the West is going to be passed if not already passed and in the other two the writing is on the wall so let's just start with the most obvious one consumers. Where are the world's consumers? Well actually we're sitting in the place where a lot of them are here in China. China has the largest single consumer market and if you actually just step back and look at its sheer size just one little example the Chinese market for online gaming is bigger than let's say the Turkish market for cars and you can go through market after market where the sheer size of China gives it a laboratory in which Chinese companies are operating and learning from an enormous amount of customer feedback and they're using that. That is why if we look at e-commerce today the Baidu Alibaba 10 cent triangle already dominates in terms of innovation and in terms of pushing the frontiers of what can happen. It's innovating in terms of the types of e-commerce and the way things are funded with Alipay, Aliphanas. I'm not here to advertise any one of those companies but I don't think it takes very long to just look at the pace and rate of innovation that they are advancing to realise that the advantage China has in terms of the size of its consumer base the learning that that provides means that we're already seeing one part of the innovation market that has already headed east. The second place I'd like to point to and say I think this type of innovation also lends itself to answering the question with a very solid yes is when we look at efficiency or process-based innovation. As you well know this is also the largest market for the auto companies and not just the auto companies but in market after market chemicals the large commodity markets where process matters. What has ended up happening is the sheer focus means that these companies are bringing to their Chinese counterparts the latest and greatest innovation and it's getting improved. Why is it getting improved? Because again if you want to be success in this market you've got to constantly improve constantly find new ways of doing things on the process front and I would argue that that is already manifesting itself in the reason why this part of the world and let's not forget Japan's been doing this for years but on the efficiency the improvement of process here in the east we're already past the west but I think what happens and why people instinctively answer the question with a no and then I asked them to think twice is because for many people innovation comes up the notion of the big scientific breakthrough and it is true that is where thus far I think the west has held sway but let's just pause and reflect on a few things let's take engineering based innovation this year China will graduate 1.2 million engineers you get to add up the next five countries and you still have less than 1.2 million engineers the engineering talent that has been generated just in China then you add to that Japan with its long heritage of great engineering skills and let's not forget Korea and I think you can make the case that while today it is true that I think on the engineering front the west still holds it's not going to be long before we see that shift east as well and then let's take me to the last area science-based innovation again we think of a big pharmaceutical companies and yes they are inherently products of the west and it is true that in this area I do think there is a lot that the west has by way of advantage better intellectual property rights greater returns to those companies a thriving private sector but I question also whether again the focus and the need for medicine the focus and the need for scientific breakthrough and indeed the sheer scale of the intellectual capital that is now being developed albeit at the moment it's quantity over quality but that will shift whether anyone can really stand here and guarantee that somehow there is an inherent reason why the west will always lead in science-based innovation which is the only one of the four I would be prepared to concede is a genuine open question when so many other forces favour the east when it comes to the question that you've asked and let me just close with a few thoughts I don't think it's a anything is inexorable there are lots of things that could change between now and then but let us remember where we're sitting $200 billion of R&D spend in China alone $200 billion 2% of GDP going up we'll see how much it goes up you heard the Premier today so the commitment is there a country of the size that we're talking about with Japan and Korea and their innovation heritage is in other parts of Asia too and I just think it would be rather wrong to think that the west has the right to dominate the world of innovation instead what I think will happen is we'll see a rebalancing and that's why my answer to yes only requires you to believe that there's enough doubt in the case for no ie if you have doubts that the west is going to hold sway then you should join us in answering yes because it looks to me that the forces are at least ones which say there's going to be a balance and the balance between east and west is rapidly coming thank you Kevin so you've heard a model of four different types of innovation in which and in every single one the seeds of of the west being surpassed are present Michael perhaps respond to that that model from your perspective now you're going to tell us that in fact the won't the west won't be surpassed soon and here's why I think the question is put the wrong way and this is my answer because I think you should ask yourself which kind of society will attract talent and creativity where does it flourish where does it happen and that's the basic point I would like to argue it's not about east and west it's about society and how it's functions and then if I if I look at sweden for instance it's quite unique we're nine million people small country up in the north of europe how can we produce these kind of fantastic great companies all over the world how come ericsson has produced networks that facilitates the services of almost 40 percent of all the data traffic globally of course that's an impressive thing and it's a kind of tradition we have have for ages invest in rnd educational system I think that's the basic point of every country wants to compete in the global economy to actually be good at this to foster this kind of environment but it's not only that it's also kind of an environment of creativity educational system that allows people to take their own responsibility to challenge things to be democratic in a way that actually we're very we don't have big hierarchies in sweden almost any employee can take their own decisions and make things together with other people that's kind of creative environment to spur innovation so I would say rnd education is the obvious answers to what actually facilitates good innovation climates but it's not enough I think in the future you will ask yourself where do people want to be in what kind of society do I want to raise my children are are women part of the innovation process therefore I think other questions will arise and that's why when I asked the startup scene in Stockholm I said I don't think it's as well known as the big companies of sweden the startup scene in Stockholm now competes with Silicon Valley in producing unicorns per capita people are coming there because of the talent because of the creativity but also because of the environment also about the gender equality it's about values it's about social self safety net that actually brings something else to life quality of life I think these aspects will be even more increasingly important when you talk about creativity and innovation I think so the east and west is one thing of putting it I think the north still has something to contribute when it comes to this a third element I would say is openness because the the reflection from sweden is that we're such a relatively small country in a global economy so the startup scene in Stockholm don't think of sweden as their market no one does because they know it's not enough so they think globally directly so this kind of mental shift that we as a small country has that the the world is our future is very good for us because we see that the companies and markets that are related to the global economy in global value change they are more competitive and more innovative than branches or companies that are not so to be exposed to global trade is very good for us and I see trends in the world that continents or countries are looking themselves thinking they can create a market inside themselves I think that's the wrong way to go I think openness when it comes to people trade data flows will be a very crucial point for innovation that's why I think also when it comes to people freedom of speech the openness of internet these are very important factors when you think about creativity and innovation in a modern society so ask yourself which kind of society will foster and attract talent and creativity I think there are some good society around the world that have good opportunities to take advantage of this otherwise society will have to change to meet this because otherwise the climate will not be there to attract talent and create creativity thank you so you've added a fifth dimension actually which is societal innovation and the culture and underpinnings of the framework of four elements perhaps and saying actually the west can become a global can think globally and we can all think globally but then I'd like to turn to you Chen and talk a little bit about you know in your view how can China further drive innovation how can in your view the west be surpassed as a global innovation powerhouse well I just uh talk to you that I believe the west will be surpassed by China and those emerging economies not now but it might take some time in the future let's say reason that I um I saw only two percent of people say be possible that was my interpretation non-scientific interpretation well let's say two percent we don't quote that which is not surprise it reminds me one fact there is vice president of the United States Joe Biden may last year he gave a speech in us air force college I noticed his speech can you believe it in his speech he said well I can challenge you let you tell me any innovative project any innovative change any innovative initiative came from China any he said no zero you check it up Joe Biden's speech and so I'm not surprised that very few people believe that west will be surpassed however that's its traditional feeling actually for example China and India they change a lot just like you mentioned we invest last year over or close to 200 billion dollars for R&D which you never believe it it was our scientist that was no more than one percent of GDP it was great 10 years ago but last year our investment in R&D reached to 2.09% in China if you reach over 2% in the world that means government pays so much attention to R&D and which is great which is really great as a scientist we feel now more research budget in our hand once once since I like to emphasize the change which is surprise government to bring the money central bank money is 50 billion dollars 70 percent of money came from cooperation the company which never ever I mean show in history in China they always government pay money but 70 percent of research budget R&D budget came from Chinese company that is very big change and I can tell very simple several facts you all know that high speed rail in China is doing so well nuclear power station that's a lot of new invention in you know innovation there and then two things which is so surprised last week a couple weeks ago I did some investigation research on the area two things one is a solar energy which invented in Europe a very famous in Europe for wind energy second one is a solar energy and can you believe it's just in couple years now two last months we have 100 million volt a kilowatt for wind energy we have a 350 kilowatts 350 million or 350 million kilowatts for solar energy it made in the world number one and number two a 10 biggest company for producing equipments four of them are in China now and there's no more than five year or 10 years so surprise change and for basic research now you see that the new material nanometer materials come along very fast called graphene the graphene research goes on very well here it's very innovative the graphene and then second is quantum communication that the quantum communication is a concept but it is in action now the Chinese are considering building a quantum communication in the world first time show in the world it will be from Beijing to Shanghai the quantum communication it will be the truth and then Joe Biden say well give me the one anyone came from China that was ridiculous I mean you see a things are changing now in China the same thing happened in India the big population in two countries there's lots and lots of students sent it to American sent it to European countries for learning and now return for for example I was a PhD student in Washington University returned back I learned lots of biotechnology molecular biology so return back to China quickly establish a research laboratory laboratory and then run a company and then a very short time we produce our alpha in alpha interferon which is for hepatitis disease patient we produce 70% of alpha 1b interferon for patients so what I want to say is we have a chance it takes time learning slowly but move fast and sooner or later I will say that we can surpass some country in the west in particular area excellent thank you thank you there's a perception issue and then there's going to be a lot of speed and things are going to change very very fast and I think you see that in the rankings of innovative companies around the world and how fast those change I just add one more data to you in year 2002 the invention patterns which mean innovation invention patterns in China ranked number seven in the world however in year 2012 two years ago three years ago we China first time passed US invention pattern applied in the United States year 2012 that year in the US about 450,000 patterns applied China 460,000 patterns applied so year 2012 China in history first time with our pattern applied higher than the United States rank number one and which is very important data to show that the invention and innovation is innovative perfect thank you turning to Amy now Amy you're going to tell perhaps you could give us if there are any insights from the book you're publishing that would help you argue vehemently that in fact Shen is wrong that in fact the west will not be surpassed there's a different way of thinking about this yes so I do not believe the west will be surpassed as the entrepreneurship or innovation engine in the world and I'm going to say west I'm thinking of it from a US perspective so I spent four years working in the White House doing international trade and economics I spent the last five years at Harvard University studying entrepreneurs in the United States so I interviewed the top 200 founders to distill the skill set and the mindset of entrepreneurs across the US what we see that's really unique is that certainly we have founders and technology many people look to Silicon Valley so when you spend time with people who start companies like Airbnb or LinkedIn PayPal Facebook etc you see that they are harnessing this technology trend right but the great thing about the United States is you also can find founders that start as Chipotle did a Mexican restaurant a fast casual chain that goes to scale or Chobani a Greek yogurt company or Under Armour sports company or Spain so women's undergarments company right you see across the regions and across the sectors in the US that these innovators are popping up all over so the book that I've published it's in all the English speaking world now called the creators code the idea is that anyone can create I'm using the word creator instead of entrepreneur the code as deciphered through this five years of research is the six skills that these US innovators have in common the book comes out on Monday in China so I'm very excited in translation to see the Chinese creators and what they will do as well but I'll say I'm trained as a sociologist I also have an MBA I'm fascinated with the people it's the people who will drive the next trends right so that's what I look at I think in the United States the system I'll outline a couple things that makes it really unique there's a recipe here the ingredients we can know it's hard though to have it come together in a way that has been the United States right one is the university system so we have the greatest universities in the world that helps us train our people it also helps attract the brain power from across the globe that's really not to be underestimated because when you look at a company like PayPal I'll use it as an example Elon Musk comes from South Africa he enters the United States to study at the University of Pennsylvania studies economics and physics he's one of the PayPal founders another one is Max Levton he comes from the Ukraine he comes in to study at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign it's a great computer science powerhouse they partner with Peter Thiel he's trained out of Stanford undergrad in law school those three founders create a company when the tech bubble burst they sell it to ebay for 1.5 billion dollars in 2002 it's when everyone thought doom and gloom was hitting Silicon Valley they actually succeed the much more interesting thing about this is what happens next which is the first 12 people at PayPal go on to see the entire next wave of the internet so they start LinkedIn, YouTube, Yelp, they invest the first money behind Facebook they do Yammer, Palantir, Elon is building Tesla Motors and SpaceX, Solar City etc the list goes on and on and on that's the original PayPal team we had two immigrants there so here's the second part of our system universities attract people immigration policy and this you know is on the verge of breaking in the US but the immigration policy is to bring in great talent a third factor is access to capital our capital markets work you can have an idea and you can find money for it right that's a really strong part of the system so whether it's in the capital markets you know at scale or whether it's angel investing venture funding crowd funding there's ways that good ideas find money to back them another thing is the rule of law so we're a rule of space system if you break the law you can be prosecuted for it that helps to protect creators who will originate ideas we've never seen before the trust is a really big factor in this system too and this sounds like a soft thing to say but if you are going to build an idea that the world has never seen you really have to trust the the partners that you build that new concept with so in Silicon Valley a handshake is a handshake if you say I will build this with you that is how it works that is a really big competitive advantage and then I would say lastly there's just great optimism in the United States I mean it is not a perfect system it's far from a perfect system but it's a very hopeful system and if you tell me I want to move and build my life in a place that's beautiful where nature is everywhere you look where people around you are collaborators they want to help you build something they're educated there's money there to help you if you actually have a good idea and if you get it wrong and if you fail you can get up one more time that does not look like Beijing to me that looks a lot like northern California right so there's the argument that I don't think the west is going away thank you so now francis I don't know how we did this but we are allowing you to decide which camp you want to join so tell us do you think the west will soon be surpassed as the world's innovation powerhouse and why look I would give a qualified answer you know so I would say it depends on what you mean by soon if you take the Chinese view of history of course then I'd say definitely yes you know soon gives us a certain amount of time but what we do notice I think is that innovation is a long term game it's not something despite the acceleration of history with rapid rapid technological progress nevertheless innovation capacity and building innovation capacity I think is a long term game despite that I think we have all the indicators to say that the west will be surpassed that doesn't mean that I think that innovation is going to disappear in the west it is still going to be strong but it's going to be a much more multipolar world in innovation and we will see Asia in particular I think rising what are the reasons well just before going to the reasons let me make one other comment about it being a long term game you were kind enough to mention that we published a global innovation index the 2015 version of which will be published next week we do notice a certain stability in the top 20 there are two Asian economies in the top 20 namely Korea and Japan China came in last year at around about 29 rising rapidly of course and an index favours smaller economies because they achieve greater evenness so it's much larger it's much more difficult for a large economy to score well on an index and so we see very very good scores of course from switzerland scandinavian countries and number of the smaller economies with a very even performance now why is it going to change what I would agree with Kevin first of all demographics the demographics give us all the reasons to suggest that here the the center of demography is going to be Asia it is already Asia I'd say secondly economic capacity in development and with rising economic development you find rising middle classes innovation is basically a surplus activity and you need to have that capacity that economic capacity at the outset in order to be able to engage in innovation then I'd say thirdly the strategic focus that one finds particularly in northeast Asia in China but also in Japan and in Korea an incredible strategic focus on innovation as an engine of growth and as the future I don't think you see that to the same extent elsewhere in the world with due respect to the minister for innovation of sweden but you don't have that same comprehensive I think focus and then lastly I'd say competition with the change in the economic center of gravity with the change in the demographic center of gravity the competition is going to be increasingly here and I think the competition also spurs innovation and we will see increasing competition in this part of the world so for all those reasons I would say yes it's not going to happen tomorrow but it is happening there are plenty of indicators as you have mentioned Professor Chen I could give you one other indicator which is international patent applications you mentioned patent applications it's only an indicator but in 1994 20 years ago Japan China and Korea accounted for 7.6% of all international patent applications last year they accounted for 38% more than Europe more than the United States for America okay it's a quantitative measure we do need to deal with quantitative measures and a final word perhaps is that I very much like Kevin's division of innovation I would tend to switch the last one if I may into market creating innovations and I don't think we yet see that in Asia that is the innovation like take the smartphone smartphone nobody asked for the smartphone it didn't exist it created a whole market which was unimagined that market creating innovation I think we have not yet seen emerge predominantly from Asia and that's the long-term game wonderful thank you now each person has made their initial comment I'm going to give you a chance just in a minute each if if you can to perhaps reflect on anything else you heard from the other side and any any comments you'd like to make to really refute perhaps what what you heard or to make your case even stronger and then we'll have a few comments from the audience then we'll vote again with the audience see how persuasive our speakers have been and then we'll just allow a wrap up here from the speakers to perhaps give a little bit of their own perspective as well Kevin back to you just how would you react to what I would react by saying the great thing about being on this side is we can actually agree with what Amy and the minister said because at the end of the day I don't question that the American model of innovation you outline works I don't question that what's happening in Stockholm works I think what we're saying is actually we need to step back and realise there are other models of innovation and they actually work quite well so I think Japan showed there are other ways to do breakthrough innovation in automotive than relying on an individual a venture capitalist and a great American domestic market to create the world's best motor cars and that I think is the point what is actually happening is that the models of innovation that lend themselves to innovation in the consumer sector that lend themselves to innovation in process that lend themselves to innovation around engineering require a certain scale benefit from the ability to have the world's best suppliers competing in your domestic market to gain share because that's what's happening here in China this is the battleground for the German auto companies it's China what does that mean it means you get this learning laboratory and Chinese companies are very good at taking things and evolving them it used to be China was the innovation sponge I think what we're arguing is China's on the path to being an innovation leader in these three areas how you define this fourth area I think is very fair this notion of the hero innovation breakthrough it is true to say that the model doesn't work so well in that but arguing against this other model of innovation that is different from the American model different from the model in Sweden and saying it won't work I think is very dangerous and I think when you look at the forces that are at work demography competition forces the west recognises actually they're playing out here in the east and they're playing out specifically in China and that's why I think we're arguing that there's going to be a rebalancing and so if the west is not surpassed it's at least now a conversation which requires the eastern model and the western model to meet and isn't that a great thing for the world that we have this battle on the innovation front let's keep the battle there because that's a good thing for all of us yeah um I agree with you that the both said that how good it is in US in united states the system I agree with you that indeed you have a strong human resource very talented people many countries being brand jam we call brand jam the top students left the country to USA not from China not only China but other countries so you've got a better talent people whole world to united states or some other countries in Europe that's one thing for sure second highly touch in my mind that is financial combine with technology a very good VC venture capital money and PE very sophisticated system in America in Silicon Valley in in uh New York area or some other area very very sophisticated you know the financial combine with science and technology any new discovery in the laboratory well I was starting there that the monster company quickly come over say let's do it I will apply patent for you and let's make it into a business which is not show up in China or in some other developing country that kind of fast and so two things one is human resource second is financial support so make it high technology goes very well very fast so you can listen in a nest stack you can make money and invest more project agree with you uh there is a short hands in our country in China or in many developing country but once since I like to say that again emphasize it that we are learning so fast can you believe even if you do the research how many are VC company in China 10 years ago and today you might be so surprised to find that that is not just a 10 times or 20 times it changes so much now in Beijing you're really easily to find VC if you have good technology that's not shown up in 10 years ago what I want to say is since really changed so fast in China so we have a more people know the name called VC and more people know the name called PE in never I mean many people did not know before that that the words called VC so since are changing now and the good thing is is Chinese economy move up so now got the money I say 2.09% of GDP for R&D government put a 4% of GDP in education you might heard that which is so surprised if you can put a 4% of GDP in education that means university got the money high school university got the money indeed so now you see many university we are taking foreign students to our country now you go to Beijing University, Tsinghua University quite a few foreign country students are studying in our country so what I want to say is when you economy move up again and again and so situation will change a lot we slowly learn it and so you say four advantages you will see one by one will show up in this country and so I say I feel very happy about the future because I know the day will come it just soon or soon or later excellent I like the fighting talk back to you Michael final points one thing first I do not challenge the shift to Asia that's the basic line in every speech I hold in Sweden I think Sweden is too much reliant on Europe today 70% of our trade and export goes to Europe that's part of the economic problem of Sweden that we're not on the emerging market we're not that much on the growing market of the world this is the shift we have to do as a society so I don't challenge that I don't challenge that other countries are running faster than before we don't see that Sweden is dropping Sweden is not running as fast as some other countries are doing so we're being caught up by other countries and we see that so we have to run faster to stay in kind of a pole position we understand this and the reason why I still just one thing first I think our strategy is to link up with Asia we don't as we know quite particularly here we have welcome who are ways investments in Sweden the homeland of Ericsson we have welcome gilis corporation with Volvo now Volvo is boosting in Sweden R&D centers growing and and doing very well in Sweden actually better than with the American owners of all though and this is very interesting Sweden is an open country we have made the strategic choice to link up with the global economy and that's choice we have to make with Asia now to to find partners to innovate together with Chinese or Asian partners so this is our strategy my question is will the Chinese society change as much will people feel the freedom to make strange decisions we know that many of the entrepreneurs are not the mainstream figures they're the outsiders in in my views the digital transformation will be the driving force for many of the innovation processes will the internet be open will data flow flow will people be allowed to express themselves this is very important questions if you want to be a society where it grows and then I think in the long run I think environmental issues and more soft issues like raising a family gender equality free universities these are aspects of life good life that I think will be an advantage for a small country like Sweden to actually compete and present something else than the other global players or do you aim your last word for the motion so I if you tell me that you would build a billion dollar in revenue business in China I will believe you so I heard from the other side we have scale we are building really fast I believe that in the United States we call that a unicorn a zero to billion dollar revenue company I think we're going to see many Chinese unicorns but I think the model is inspired by something that we see right now in the US innovation or in the Western economy so I think there is a Google of China and Amazon of China and eBay of China Facebook of China we can name what those companies are here you know questioning in my mind the biggest thing is not talent that we see in China I think the the question mark is around trust so trust is so big in an innovation economy of if you have a novel concept if you originate something will people partner with you will they help you will you take you know will they steal it from you will they take it away will they quash it or can you trust the people in and around you and international partners as well internal external I think that's a really big question and I think that going forward I don't doubt the scale in China I think the two big global forces that we see driving the world economy are China as one of them and technology as another one so I look forward to partnering with you. All right we're going to ask for two maybe three questions from the audience I've got so one I'm going to try and choose from different parts there's nobody there not fast enough not fast enough so two three okay and we'll hear each of them in turn and then maybe the the group can respond Austin please and then there's a mic coming around the gentleman with the orange tie at the very front. Yeah Austin O'Kerry from Computer Warehouse Group Lagos I'm also an entrepreneur in residence at Columbia Business School I think is to me not a two-way race the way it's put there are going to be different aspects and there's even going to be a dark horse that comes in. If you talk about creative innovation clearly the West and especially America I think it's going to be ahead of the race by a country man for the same reasons we've talked about best graduates go there intellectual property high-speed internet and so on but when you talk about innovation in manufacturing then obviously China is ahead everybody's manufacturing China they just know how to take something and make it to scale yeah but talk about innovation in consumption I think Africa is where it is we have a mobile phone we have banking and we combine the two to make mobile banking to serve our specific needs we have insurance because we don't have a health care system that works so everybody contributes through their mobile phone to a pool that serves as health insurance if you talk about medical tourism or medical innovation that India is ahead or even in software so I don't think that it's going to be one type of innovation which is creative innovation but innovation in many aspects consumption innovation creative innovation and manufactured innovation and probably other ones. Thank you so actually to the panel what about the rest of the world and I think last year in your report you talked about how Sub-Saharan Africa showed the greatest increase let's go to another the gentleman at the back with the glasses the second question and then you can respond to which other one is the question. This is to Professor Chan. While I am of course don't believe I am a no it's not going to shift to Asia I believe it could if two things one the government is out of the way I have to question innovation speaks to a free flow of information as was mentioned why am I why are we penalized foreigners here if we can't check our internet use our sites that we rely upon obviously this is not a free free flow of information when the internet is blocked and censored and also Professor Chan also mentioned that Joe Biden made a comment. Joe Biden is not the voice of innovation in America. I could say okay maybe Joe Biden is the vice president and unfortunately I see China always referring and comparing itself on a state-to-state basis it's China versus America America versus China globalism is America's fault so once the Chinese government and people like Professor Chan understand that it's not the government and it's the people it's the entrepreneurs it's the young kids building their businesses and if they're being supported by the rule of law as was mentioned then maybe definitely it can go to Asia but using western innovation does not make China an innovator. Thank you we had one final question here if you can keep your comment brief I'm going to ask you to keep in character when you answer these questions it's going to be tricky. I'm not going to support either US or it's going to be in China but my belief is that globalization and disruptive technologies make innovation pervasive all around the world it'll happen everywhere there's no barriers for innovation any longer as I guess Nicholas Negroponte once said you know borders between countries are etched in sand like wind grows you know the borders can change so my comment is that it's going to go and become pervasive all along that's one and quickly the second one is that China and India will also have an advantage in terms of doing frugal innovation the ability for people to go at a third is going to be far far different from what happens the western world so the opportunities are plenty in terms of doing frugal innovation frugal does not mean cheap it's basically making sure creating a value for the type of money that they get paid thank you thank you so have we considered all parts of the world have we considered all types of innovation one final quick anybody who wants to answer those questions and then we're going to ask you to vote again in the audience and see if you've changed your mind Francis I may make two comments one yes I do agree with the gentleman in the orings time you know I do think there is an important role for especially user-driven innovation and that's what I think we see a lot in Africa particularly in east Africa so we've seen Mpesa emerge we've seen a lot of innovations in the mobile banking and these are user-driven rather than producer produced I think innovations you know the handheld electrocardiograms another good example you can't bring people to the hospital so you bring the electrocardiogab to the people and I think this this is what is a feature of innovation but so it underlies that we have an extraordinary variety in innovation the other point if I may make it's a slightly parochial point if you would excuse me is that I think despite the fact that innovation is shared and open or in fact because of that we see increasingly attention between collaboration and cooperation and I think this underlines the point that we do need a rules-based system unfortunately developments are such that there is a sort of balkanisation of the rule-making powers around the world and we see a lot happening bilaterally pluralaterally and not a lot happening multilaterally despite the fact that globalization tends to suggest we need global rules I'm not suggesting rules in in the sense of there are two sorts of lawyers there are those who say you can't do it and there are others who say well if you want to do it this is the way you do it I think we need rules to facilitate the global networks the free flow of information we need rules to achieve what Premier Leica Chang spoke about this morning global industrial capacity because these are built on the information networks and the sharing of information and there must be some rules which say where you allocate the competitive advantage and where you allocate the public domain thank you would Professor Chen you know you're fine I think the only thing I would just think is I think it's very important to recognise that the models of innovation are wide and varied and I think I could point to you in many examples where Chinese companies are absolutely into innovating on the internet in ways that American companies haven't even thought of and I think it's important to understand that we are seeing an innovative gene that applies wherever you are in the world how that then gets nurtured and how it gets manifested looks different so if you go online in China and you know WeChat, Taobao and you look at the kind of things that are happening I think you'd be amazed and I think you'd find many features that are way ahead of their US counterparts the reverse is also true and I think that is what's going on here we have different models of innovation that apply in different ways but I think it would be a mistake to characterize the only way that we can get breakthrough innovation is through the combination of a hero entrepreneur a venture capitalist and a society around it because we've had massive breakthroughs in innovation happening in this part of the world in very different ways where the power of collective thoughts where the innovation comes because many people are in large entities that work together to invent something and now the original idea has long gone so the technology in a new high-speed rail train here in China yes it's a high-speed rail train it's a bullet train of some sort but it's moved on very substantially from the original that is innovation and so I think we have to recognize that what's good I think for the world is that we have these very different models of innovation and if they are harness to the common good that's a great thing and Africa absolutely is going to innovate in places where it needs to innovate and has done in food and many other areas we can look to Africa as being a model for innovation of another kind and all these models have to be respected we shouldn't just celebrate one and assume it's the only way to have a breakthrough occur just one two comments first is geography is getting less and less important and it's not about countries only it's about regions of the world it's about communities that are very interesting and trying new things so I think geography thing with internet geography becomes more more less valid but the other thing is that I do see kind of a global trend that goes against all this more and more protectionist more and more nationalism this is really a threat to the what we're talking about here agreeing on standards global rules this is on questions mark now and now we've talked for for ages that we're globalizing the world is it really going in that direction right now with the trade negotiations with these kind of nationalistic protectionism trends in Europe or elsewhere you see a lot of trends that goes in the wrong direction as well and this will be a hinder for innovation I think and I think people still think the old logic that we can on our market fix innovation the old models this is not the way to actually develop innovation and that's why where I'm a bit afraid where where the world is going right now so I'd like to pick up on that as well I think that you see global innovators when they get to scale they all know each other these entrepreneurs Jack Ma is Chinese Elon Musk is you know living in the United States Larry Larry and Sergey the Google founders they know each other so the nationalism trends are political I think a lot of the innovators and entrepreneurs you know they have a lot of connections across and breaking out of this debate mold a little bit I will say I am a really curious about some of the models coming up in China so we chat versus WhatsApp my money's on we chat right and integrated platform it's amazing what's going on here in that smartphone mobile space another thing that I'm really looking at and curious about is Ali pay and we pay as something that's now disintermediating the banking financial sector in the last few months they are basically an asset management technology company with 100 billion in assets under management if I were sitting in my I had worked at JP Morgan at one point if I were at JP Morgan now I would really be watching that as an international bank right coming out of China so I think that we are seeing lots of these ideas in many places and like Kevin said it is different models for different places but they are coming onto the global stage we are globally linked so we already hang on just because I would like to hear what the audience thinks now they've heard everyone and then I will come back to you but we already have members of a debating team switching to the other side I'm hearing so we'll pitch it that way so at the start we asked you a question and we got a two percent four no two percent against is that right two percent two percent he said yes right I'm already forgetting so we're going to ask again and again a show of hands please will the west soon be surpassed as the world's innovation powerhouse those four there's a few more we've got a few more there I would say we've got a 10 percent I think we've got a 10 percent all right let's let to be complete you know those of you who would say no I am seeing more people undecided 15 percent you'd say 15 percent we have a scientific opinion right here completely unbiased as well excellent question counter to to innovation the fact that one or the other is going to so so the purpose of this discussion was set up as a debate specifically so that we can get a little bit more dynamism in the conversation so what I'm going to do now is turn to each of our panellists and ask them a little bit for a little bit more nuance perhaps a couple of thoughts or a couple of reactions that you've had as you've listened a couple of thoughts to for the audience to take away professor yeah I'm happy that we increase about 8 percent from 2 percent to 10 percent after debates thank you very much thank you very much and thank you very much I thank you very much for explaining a VP Joe Biden's points I was really sad on his speech on US Air Force College he said I mean he said real words I did not change at all say I challenge you you tell me any any innovative project products and initiative came from China and I was pissed off on that because I don't feel happy about that so thank you very much to give me opportunity to tell the truth the fact it's indeed a change and you just mentioned that we chat I mean you cannot believe it every kids played we chat this is amazing I even myself played it every day and maybe every hour so hosting is changing in China and we need to open our mind to see the China and last point I say well maybe a competition but you are right later on you know whole world of global relations then you will see collaboration competition to make the human being is a better life and that's what our premier Lee Ker Chan said more collaboration in the future thank you Amy any final words we have 30 seconds perhaps post speaker sir so I would say we live in a global environment economy and in the entrepreneurial and innovation space everyone wants a cure for cancer it doesn't matter what your national you know background is we all want clean water we all want exploration of space we will we want many of the same things and that entrepreneurs and innovators are the people who will solve that so we need to do it together and so I also don't like the construct of us versus them I actually don't think it's reality so I think it's together I think the best argument is really valid it comes with the customer or persons they drive innovation what they need and what they want and in Asia the biggest market will be here so I of course it will spur innovation and drive many of the innovations around the globe because it is here it it will happen I think the wonderful thing is we have different models of innovation we need to keep the playing field open for all those models to thrive and we should celebrate all of them because at the end of the day the world needs to improve its productivity there's a lot of people who need to get fed a lot of basic needs that need to get met I think respecting that those different models can exist together and keeping the playing field open so that we can actually find a way for the competition to be one that is ultimately productive rather nationalistic in tone is vital I think that's probably the most important overtone to all of us but let's remember innovation isn't just one thing it's many different forms and I think we should celebrate all of them the last word to you Francis let's respect the diversity of innovation models I agree entirely and let's have a some a framework of rules that supports the innovators and supports global innovation rather than prohibits supportive perfect please join me in thanking our wonderful panelists who played a wonderful game here today I hope you've enjoyed the debate today thank you very much for being here for your wonderful questions and I hope you have a fantastic rest of the day thank you